THIRD CONGRESS.—SECOND SESSION.

PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES

IN

THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, November 3, 1794.

The following members appeared, and took their seats, to wit:

From New Hampshire.—Nicholas Gilman, Jeremiah Smith, and Paine Wingate.

From Massachusetts.—Fisher Ames, David Cobb, Henry Dearborn, Dwight Foster, Benjamin Goodhue, Samuel Holten, George Thatcher, Peleg Wadsworth, and Artemas Ward.

From Connecticut.—Joshua Coit, Amasa Learned, Zephaniah Swift, Uriah Tracy, and Jonathan Trumbull.

From Vermont.—Israel Smith.

From New York.—Theodorus Bailey, Philip Van Cortlandt, and John Watts.

From New Jersey.—John Beatty and Elias Boudinot.

From Pennsylvania.—Thomas Hartley, John Wilkes Kittera, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, (Speaker,) and Peter Muhlenberg.

From Maryland.—Gabriel Christie and George Dent.

From Virginia.—Isaac Coles, Samuel Griffin, John Heath, Joseph Neville, Anthony New, Josiah Parker, and Robert Rutherford.

From Kentucky.—Christopher Greenup.

From North Carolina.—Thomas Blount, William Johnston Dawson, Nathaniel Macon, and Alexander Mebane.

From South Carolina.—William Smith.

From Georgia.—Abraham Baldwin.

A quorum of the whole number not being present, the House adjourned until to-morrow.

Tuesday, November 4.

Several other members, to wit: from Rhode Island, Francis Malbone; from New York, Henry Glenn, James Gordon, and John E. Van Allen; from New Jersey, Jonathan Dayton; from Pennsylvania, Thomas Fitzsimons; from Delaware, Henry Latimer; from Maryland, William Vans Murray; from Virginia, George Hancock, Richard Bland Lee, James Madison, Andrew Moore, Francis Preston, and Francis Walker; and from North Carolina, Matthew Locke, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

And a quorum, consisting of a majority of the whole number, being present,

Ordered, That a message be sent to the Senate, to inform them that a quorum of this House is assembled, and ready to proceed to business; and that the Clerk of this House do go with said message.

Wednesday, November 5.

Several other members, to wit: from New Hampshire, John S. Sherburne; from Massachusetts, William Lyman; from Connecticut, James Hillhouse; from Vermont, Nathaniel Niles; from New York, Ezekiel Gilbert; from Maryland, William Hindman; from Virginia, Thomas Claiborne; and from Georgia, Thomas P. Carnes, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Notice was received that the Senate had not yet been able to form a quorum.

Upon this, Mr. Dayton moved that a committee shall be appointed to examine the business left unfinished last session, and report to the House. He saw no reason for losing time by waiting for the Senate.

Mr. Goodhue objected to the motion as improper.

Mr. Dayton challenged the gentleman to point out wherein the impropriety consisted. For two or three weeks the House of Representatives would have full employment, while the Senate, in reality, had none. He was positive as to the legality and expediency of proceeding.

The Speaker put the question, and the ayes and noes were equal, each being twenty-five.

The Speaker then informed the House that, as a quorum of their number was not present, it would be requisite to adjourn.

The House rose immediately, after adjourning till to-morrow.

Thursday, November 6.

Two other members, to wit: from Massachusetts, Peleg Coffin, and from Virginia, John Nicholas, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Friday, November 7.

Several other members, to wit: from Pennsylvania, James Armstrong and William Montgomery; from Virginia, William B. Giles; from North Carolina, Joseph Winston; and from South Carolina, John Hunter, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

On motion,

Resolved, That a Standing Committee of Elections be appointed, whose duty it shall be to examine and report upon the certificates of election, or other credentials of the members returned to serve in this House, and to take into their consideration all such matters as shall or may come in question, and be referred to them by the House, touching returns and elections, and to report their proceedings with their opinion thereupon, to the House.

And a committee was appointed of Mr. Dayton, Mr. Hillhouse, Mr. Sherburne, Mr. Dent, Mr. Lee, Mr. Macon, and Mr. Hunter.

Ordered, That the letter from the Governor of Maryland, together with the return of the election of Gabriel Duvall, to serve as one of the members of this House for the said State, in the room of John Francis Mercer, who has resigned his seat, which was laid before the House at the last session, be referred to the said Committee of Elections.

Monday, November 10.

Several other members, to wit: from New York, Thomas Tredwell; from New Jersey, Lambert Cadwalader; from Pennsylvania, John Smilie; from North Carolina, William Barry Grove and Joseph McDowell; and from South Carolina, Richard Winn, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

The Speaker informed the House that the Senate had not yet been able to make a quorum. Fifteen members only appeared. One more was necessary.

Tuesday, November 11.

Two other members, to wit: from Massachusetts, Shearjashub Bourne, and from New York, Peter Van Gaasbeck, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

The Speaker informed the House that one Senator was yet wanting to the making of a quorum. [The Senate consists of thirty members, of whom only fifteen have yet (Tuesday) made their appearance; of consequence, a majority is wanting. The Vice President has, it is true, arrived, but he is not, strictly speaking, a Senator. He does not give a vote in questions that come before the Senate, unless the voices on a division are equal.]

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from James White, enclosing the credentials of his appointment as a Representative of the territory of the United States, south of the river Ohio, in the Congress of the United States, according to the ordinance of Congress of the thirteenth of July, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-seven; which were read, and ordered to be referred to Mr. Baldwin, Mr. Gilbert, Mr. Walker, Mr. Swift, and Mr. Jeremiah Smith, with instructions to examine the matter thereof, and report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the House.

Wednesday, November 12.

Another member, to wit, Carter B. Harrison, from Virginia, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Thursday, November 13.

Two other members, to wit: Andrew Gregg and Daniel Heister, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Friday, November 14.

Several other members, to wit: from Massachusetts, Samuel Dexter; from Virginia, Abraham Venable; and from Kentucky, Alexander D. Orr, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Monday, November 17.

Two other members, to wit: from Rhode Island, Benjamin Bourne, and from South Carolina, Andrew Pickens, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Delegate south of the Ohio.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the report of the committee to whom was referred the letter from James White, together with the credentials of his appointment as a Representative of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio.

Mr. Swift objected to complying with the report of the committee. He thought that it could not be carried into execution, because it involved inconsistencies. If the object of the law referred to, was to admit this person to debate, and not to vote, that was unconstitutional. He was, by that law, to be a member of Congress; but the House of Representatives are not Congress, and, therefore, this person may equally vote in the House of Representatives and in the Senate; while, at the same time, he may interrupt the President consenting to a bill, by giving his advice. The constitution has made no provision for such a member as this person is intended to be. If we can admit a delegate to Congress or a member of the House of Representatives, we may with equal propriety admit a stranger from any quarter of the world. We may as well admit the gallery, or a foreign Minister, as this person from the territory south-west of the Ohio. At this rate, we may very soon overturn the constitution. If this person has any proper title to a seat, it must be in the Senate; it could not be in the House of Representatives, who were not delegates. The Senate, perhaps, might be called such. His election was nearer the mode of theirs, than that of this House.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) had no difficulty in declaring that the gentleman was fully qualified to take a seat in that House, by the terms of an express compact with the people. He was convinced that the Representatives have a right to admit those whom they regard as lawfully entitled to a seat in the House, for the purpose of debating. They may admit the Secretary of State, if they consider it as expedient. If this gentleman had applied to the Senate, that body also were authorized to admit him, if they thought it lawful. Under the old constitution, he would have been a member sui generis. He does not claim a right of voting, but of speaking only; and when the affairs of the South-western Territory were agitated in the Senate, he had a right, in his (Mr. S.'s) judgment, to speak and debate in that House also. Mr. S. wished that there had been previously settled another part of this business, viz: by whom the delegate was to be paid for his attendance. It may be a future question, also, whether he is to be dismissed when the galleries are cleared?

Mr. Giles was not prepared to speak on the subject. On the score of expediency, his present opinion was, that the delegate from the south-west of the Ohio should be admitted. He had no objection to the motion of the member from Maryland, (Mr. Murray,) for the committee rising, but he would never consent to it for the sake of consulting the Senate. He would agree to it, for the sake of further deliberation among themselves. If the House chose to consult the gallery—a resource for information that he should never wish to see adopted—they had a right to consult it, or to ask advice from any other quarter, notwithstanding the assertion of the gentleman from Connecticut.

Mr. Dexter said, he thought the obstacle should be got over by a formal act of the Legislature. He was clear that the House had a right to consult or admit to the privilege of debating, any individual whom they thought proper. They might, for instance, admit an advocate to plead; in a particular case; but that was entirely a different matter from allowing him to give a vote on the question before the House. Mr. D. declared that he would vote against the report, as it now stands, not because he thought the gentleman from the South-western Territory unentitled to a seat, but because he regarded an act of the whole Legislature as a requisite for his introduction.

It was now moved that the committee should rise, and report the resolution of the select committee.

Mr. W. Smith differed from Mr. Dexter. He thought the House of Representatives was, in itself, perfectly competent to settle the point. He was determined that they ought not to consult the Senate upon the matter. It would be extremely improper to let the Senate interfere. He again adverted to his former position, that the House may, if it sees proper, introduce the Secretary of State to a privilege of being consulted, or any other person who may be thought suitable. But he would never submit to yield the privileges of the House to the Executive. They ought to decide their elections on their own authority, and on no occasion send to inquire of the Senate if such an amendment ought to be admitted. Mr. S. considered the gentleman (Mr. White) as expressly within the present constitution. He trusted that the committee would not rise, under any such idea as consulting the Senate; but, if they at present rise, that it would be merely for the sake of obtaining further information.

Mr. Murray.—If we could have foreseen this case, I am sure that we should have had a joint committee of privileges from both Houses, as judges. The situation of the gentleman refers to both, and therefore the Senate ought to be consulted on this head. Perhaps he is entitled to a seat in both Houses.

Mr. McDowell objected, that an act of the Legislature would never, practically, answer the purpose. The session would be next to ending, before such a law would be passed. In the mean time, the interest of the people south-west of the Ohio is agitated in a question, and their delegate is condemned to silence. The members generally admit, in substance, that he ought to be received into this House. He wished, therefore, that they would take a vote on the resolution of the select committee. He would object altogether to the proposal of the member from Maryland, for an act of the Legislature, or any consultation with, the Senate. Mr. McD. was for admitting the member to his seat.

Mr. Boudinot observed, that it was universally agreed that the old law for accepting such a member as a delegate of Congress, cannot be executed in its full sense. The gentleman ought, in his opinion, to go where members elected by Legislatures went, that is to say, to the Senate. There was no pretence for his admission among the Representatives of the people. If he had any right, it must be in the other House. He thought this a very important question, and that it deserved more consideration than it had yet received. Mr. B. was not prepared to vote; but, if he was forced to give his voice at present, he should be for remitting the gentleman to the Senate. He thought that there should be an act of the whole Legislature. He should vote for the committee rising.

Mr. Dayton said, that he should vote against the motion of the Maryland member, for the rising of the committee. He was against the object of this motion. He agreed entirely with the report of the select committee for receiving the south-western member immediately, as he had a right to a seat, founded on an original compact, which gave it to him. He objected to any concurrence of the Senate being asked. As to consulting persons out of doors, the House had a right to call Heads of Departments to give their opinions on any particular subject, if they thought proper. Mr. D. mentioned some cases of this nature, where such an expedient had been used.

Mr. Giles mentioned one reason against the committee rising, which was, that the House had no other business before it. He then read an amendment to the resolution of the select committee, as a middle course, that would embrace the ideas of all parties.

Mr. Dexter repeated some of his former reasons for preferring an act of the Legislature.

The question was called for, and put by the Chairman, Shall the committee now rise, and report progress? It was decided in the negative—yeas 38, nays 39.

The question was then put on the resolution, as given by the committee. Mr. Giles again proposed his amendment. This was, that after the word "debating," in the resolution, there should be added, "upon any question touching the rights and interests of people in the territory of the United States south-west of the Ohio." The object was to narrow the power of the delegate.

Mr. Smilie was for his being admitted to deliberate on every subject, or none at all.

Mr. Giles declared that he was very well pleased with the resolution, as it originally stood. He had only suggested this amendment that he might get the resolution through the House. He therefore withdrew his motion.

Mr. Baldwin did not see that the question was of much importance. When a member was permitted to speak, but forbidden to vote, his situation was, no doubt, infinitely higher than that of strangers in the gallery, that of an advocate allowed to plead at the bar of the House, or that of a printer who came only to take notes; but still it was extremely short of the situation of a member of Congress. This would be more especially the case, if his right of debating was restricted to the affairs of the North-west and South-west Territory. Mr. B. could see nothing in the new constitution that made an exclusion of the delegate from the south-west of the Ohio. This privilege had been solemnly promised to those people, upon three different occasions. When they belonged to the State of South Carolina, they sent a Representative, Mr. Sevier, to Congress; and they separated into a new State, under the promise of this privilege. But now, we have made a discovery, that these laws cannot be put into execution. It is a great pity that we had not made this discovery sooner. Mr. B. rejected all idea of referring this matter to the Senate. When the latter had any question of that kind, that concerned themselves, they would, no doubt, judge for themselves, and that just as properly as the House of Representatives. As to the pay of this gentleman, that might be an after question. He was clear that there at present existed no law which could make out that. The House may hereafter, if they see fit, pass a law respecting it. But, in the mean time, Mr. B. was satisfied that these people had a claim for a delegate, which could not be got rid of by the House.

Mr. Swift thought that it would be better to erect these people into a new State, and then the privilege would be of some real use to them. He was still of opinion that the constitution admits of no such delegate as this person is intended to be. He is a new kind of character, unknown to it. This person is sui generis. If the constitution knows any thing about him, then take him; if not, reject him. As to taking advice from the gallery, Mr. S. seemed to think he had been misunderstood. To admit a person within the bar for the purpose of consulting him, was a quite different thing from permitting the gallery, like this person, to come and take a permanent seat among the members, for the purpose of regularly debating. Mr. S. never meant to debar the House from taking information wherever they could find it.

Mr. Murray was concerned that he found himself obliged to vote against the resolution of the Committee of the Whole. He still hoped that the gentleman would have a seat, but that the Senate would first be consulted.

Mr. Wingate moved an amendment to take the resolution, by adopting these words, "to a seat in Congress, as a delegate to Congress."

Mr. Madison said, that the resolution, as passed by the select committee, was so properly expressed, that he did not believe it could admit of any amendment or alteration whatever.

The Committee of the whole House then divided on the resolution, when there appeared a very large majority in favor of reporting it as it first stood, and consequently for admitting Mr. White as a delegate. The committee then rose.

Tuesday, November 18.

Another member, to wit, Theodore Sedgwick, from Massachusetts, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Delegate south of the Ohio.

The House proceeded to consider the report of the committee on the letter from James White, enclosing the credentials of his appointment as a Representative of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio; to which the Committee of the whole House reported no amendment. Whereupon, the said report being again read at the Clerk's table, was, on the question put thereupon, agreed to by the House, as follows:

"That, by the ordinance for the government of the territory of the United States north-west of the river Ohio, section nine, it is provided, "that, so soon as there shall be five thousand free male inhabitants of full age in the district, upon giving proof thereof to the Governor, they shall receive authority to elect Representatives to represent them in a General Assembly;" and by the 12th section of the Ordinance, "as soon as a Legislature shall be formed in the District, the Council and House, assembled in one room, shall have authority, by joint ballot, to elect a delegate to Congress, who shall have a seat in Congress, with a right of debating but not of voting, during this temporary government." Full effect is given to this Ordinance by act of Congress, August 7, 1789.

"That, by the Deed of Cession of the territory south of the river Ohio, to the United States, in the fourth article, it is also provided 'that the inhabitants of the said territory shall enjoy all the privileges, benefits, and advantages, set forth in the Ordinance of the late Congress for the government of the Western Territory; that is to say, Congress shall assume the government of the said territory, which they shall execute in a manner similar to that which they support in the territory west of the Ohio, and shall never bar or deprive them of any privilege which the people in the territory west of the Ohio enjoy.'

"The cession, on these conditions, was accepted by act of Congress, on the 2d of April, 1790.

"By an act passed the 26th of May, 1790, for the government of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio, it is enacted, 'that the inhabitants shall enjoy all the privileges, benefits, and advantages, set forth in the Ordinance of the late Congress for the government of the territory of the United States north-west of the river Ohio. And the government of the said territory south of the river Ohio, shall be similar to that which is now exercised in the territory north-west of the river Ohio; except so far as is otherwise provided in the conditions expressed in an act of Congress of the present session, entitled 'An act to accept a cession of the claim of the State of North Carolina to a certain district of Western Territory.' The committee are of opinion that James White has been duly elected as delegate from the territory of the United States south of the Ohio, on the terms of the foregoing acts; they therefore submit the following resolution:

"Resolved, that James White be admitted to a seat in this House as a delegate from the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio, with a right of debating but not of voting."

Mr. Madison said, that in new cases there often arose a difficulty by applying old names to new things. The proper definition of Mr. White is to be found in the laws and rules of the constitution. He is not a member of Congress, therefore, and so cannot be directed to take an oath, unless he chooses to do it voluntarily.

Mr. Murray moved that Mr. White should be required to take the oath.

Mr. W. Smith observed, that the constitution only required members and the Clerk to take the oath. The gentleman was not a member. It does not even appear for what number of years he is elected. In fact he is no more than an envoy to Congress. Instead of being called delegate to Congress, had he been plainly called an envoy, the difficulty would have vanished. He is not a Representative from, but an officer deputed by the people of the Western Territory. It is very improper to call on this gentleman to take such an oath, any more than any civil officer in the State of Pennsylvania. Mr. S. did not consider him as coming even within the Post Office law, (viz: for franking letters.) He is not entitled to pay, unless a law shall be passed for that end.

Mr. Giles agreed with the gentleman who spoke last as to the impropriety of demanding an oath.

Mr. Lyman was for it.

Mr. Dayton was against the oath. Call him what you will, a member, a delegate, or, if you please, a nondescript. It would be wrong to accept his oath, even if he should offer it. He is not a member. He cannot vote, which is the essential part. It is said that he can argue, and by that means influence the votes of the House. But so also a printer may be said to argue and influence, when he comes to this House, takes notes, and prints them in the newspapers.

Mr. Boudinot.—As the House had set out on a wrong principle, it was natural that, in their subsequent progress they should wander further and further from the point. But, as the House had now given their decision, he acquiesced in it. It was, however, a strange kind of thing to have a gentleman here arguing, who was not bound by an oath. He never could reconcile it.

Several other members spoke.

The House divided on the question, "Shall the delegate take an oath as a member?" Ayes 32, noes 42—majority against the motion, 10.

Ordered, That a committee be appointed to bring in a bill extending the privilege of franking to James White, the delegate from the South-western Territory, and making provision for his compensation; and that Mr. William Smith, Mr. Thatcher, and Mr. Macon, be the said committee.

Wednesday, November 19.

Another member, to wit, Thomas Scott, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Ordered, That a message be sent to the Senate to inform them that this House is now ready to attend them in receiving the communication from the President of the United States, agreeably to his notification to both Houses yesterday; and that the Clerk of this House do go with the said message.

The Senate attended and took seats in the House; when, both Houses being assembled, the President of the United States came into the Representatives' Chamber, and delivered his Address to them. (For which see Proceedings of the Senate.)

The President of the United States then withdrew and the two Houses separated.

Ordered, that the Speech of the President of the United States to both Houses be committed to a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.

Thursday, November 20.

Another member, to wit, William Findlay, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Monday, November 24.

Answer to the President's Speech.[54]

Mr. Nicholas then rose in defence of Mr. Madison's amendment. He thought the House should not bow so much to the Executive as to approve of his proceedings without knowing what they are. Gentlemen say that they do not mean an implicit approbation. Why, then, hazard words that infer it? He would go as far in thanking the President as any person with propriety could go.

Mr. Sedgwick insisted that the amendment of the member from Connecticut (Mr. Hillhouse) was preferable to the other. The President has said that his policy in regard to foreign nations is founded on justice. We approve of that. He recites his motives. They are also approved. Where, then, is the danger of expressing a general approbation? Would it be proper to give an approbation that cannot be appropriate, and that has no definite meaning? Mr. S. was far from designing to approve, explicitly or implicitly, what the House were not acquainted with. He only intended to convey a general sentiment of approbation; and he saw nothing more than this in the amendment of the gentleman from Connecticut.

Mr. Hillhouse never designed indiscriminate approbation; nor had he any secret meaning couched under the words of his amendment. When he had any thing to say to the House, he came honestly and told them in plain words what he would be at. He meant to express his applause of pacific and equitable measures. As to the question so often referred to, (the embassy of Mr. Jay,) he solemnly declared that it never was in his mind to express any thing about it. It would come before another body.

Mr. Madison imagined that, in his motion as now worded, every person might see substantial approbation.

Mr. Ames.—Jealousy may become habitual as well as confidence. Nothing but a habit of jealousy could have found any thing of a secret in this verbal distinction of your policy instead of a policy. The distinction was trifling, but, if there must be one, he preferred the amendment of Mr. Hillhouse. His reasons for this preference were so minute that they, perhaps, had little more value than what his imagination chose to give them. In the mean time, nobody will suppose that we do not approve of the policy of the President in preferring pacific measures, because the system of peace is now preferred all over the Continent of America.

Mr. Dayton rose to make a reply to "remarks so illiberal."

Mr. Ames here rose again and said that the gentleman certainly could not mean him.

I mean that gentleman, Mr. Speaker, said Mr. Dayton, pointing to Mr. Ames. He has accused me of "habits of jealousy." To this charge Mr. D. rejoined with some warmth. He again declared that he never would pledge himself to approve of the mission of Mr. Jay, till he should learn what were that gentleman's instructions. He meant to draw this line of distinction, to give approbation of general principles, but not of particular measures. The former he considered as implied in the amendment of Mr. Madison, the latter in that of Mr. Hillhouse.

Mr. Vans Murray considered the dispute as resting on the words a policy and your policy. He would not give explicit approbation to particular measures, but he approved the general principles on which the President preferred a pacific system.

Mr. Giles.—It is admitted on all sides of the House, that we approve the general principles, but will not pledge ourselves to approve the particular means. It is best, then, to adopt the least equivocal words. Mr. G. allowed that there was but little difference, yet he should vote for the amendment of Mr. Madison as it stood.

Mr. Dexter, in opposition to the sentiments of the gentleman who had last sat down, would vote for "your policy," instead of "a policy." The latter made the sentence an abstract proposition. The words "your policy," made it a personal application. The omission of the word your tended to an implication of censure. If an abstract proposition was the whole meaning intended to be expressed, that meaning might as well be put into any other place as into an Address to the President. He did not see the use of it. Praise (said Mr. D.) is the only reward which a person receives in a Republican Government; or at least, it is the greatest reward; and if withheld where due, the effect must be pernicious. Here it would be of more particular impropriety to withhold praise, when all our constituents approve the pacific policy of the President. It would have been a matter of little consequence at first, whether "a policy" or "your policy" had been adopted, for every reader would have understood it as an approbation of the President. But now, after such a debate, if we scruple at the word your, all the world will conclude that we mean an implied censure.

Mr. Boudinot said that he adopted the word your as unequivocal. He had no meaning but what was open and candid. By adopting the amendment the House would make that language explicit, which was at present, at least in some degree, ambiguous.

Mr. Tracy pronounced an elegant panegyric on the character and conduct of the President of the United States, whom no man admired more sincerely than he did, though he could not speak thus from the honor of enjoying a personal acquaintance. He recommended to Mr. Madison rather to withdraw his motion of amendment altogether than bring it forward at such an expense of the good temper of the House. The present session had commenced with good auspices, and much cordiality, and he would be extremely sorry to disturb its tranquillity.

Mr. Madison said that he felt sensibly the force of the remarks made by the gentleman who was last up. In consequence of these remarks, he should be happy to withdraw his amendment. This was accordingly done.

It was then proposed that the Committee of the whole House should rise, and report the draft of the Address as originally given in by the special committee, with the additional amendment that had been proposed by Mr. Dayton, and adopted.

Mr. Fitzsimons then rose and said, that it would seem somewhat incongruous for the House to present an Address to the President which omitted all notice of so very important an article in his Speech as that referring to the self-created societies. Mr. F. then read an amendment, which gave rise to a very interesting debate. The amendment was in these words:

"As part of this subject, we cannot withhold our reprobation of the self-created societies, which have risen up in some parts of the Union, misrepresenting the conduct of the Government, and disturbing the operation of the laws, and which, by deceiving and inflaming the ignorant and the weak, may naturally be supposed to have stimulated and urged the insurrection."

These are "institutions, not strictly unlawful, yet not less fatal to good order and true liberty; and reprehensible in the degree that our system of government approaches to perfect political freedom."

Mr. Giles stated at large his sentiments as to this expression in the Speech of the President about self-created societies. The tone of that passage in the Speech had made a great deal of noise without doors, and it was likely to produce a considerable agitation within doors. [Here a motion was made for the rising of the committee.] Mr. G. did not wish to press himself upon the attention of the committee, but if they were disposed to hear him, he was prepared to proceed.

Mr. Sedgwick objected to the rising of the committee. The House had been often entertained and informed by the ingenuity of that gentleman, who was now prepared to address them.

Mr. W. Smith considered it as opposite to the practice of the House for a member to move that a committee should rise, at the very time when gentlemen had declared themselves ready to deliver their sentiments.

[It was repeatedly inquired from the Chair, by whom this motion was made. No answer was given and it seemed to be the unanimous wish of the House that Mr. Giles should proceed, which he did.] Mr. G. began by declaring that, when he saw, or thought he saw, the House of Representatives about to erect itself into an office of censorship, he could not sit silent. He did not rise with the hope of making proselytes, but he trusted that the fiat of no person in America should ever be taken for truth, implicitly, and without evidence.

Mr. Giles next entered into an encomium of some length on the public services and personal character of the President. He vindicated himself from any want of respect or esteem towards him. He then entered into an examination of the propriety of the expression employed by the President, with regard to self-created societies. Mr. G. said, that there was not an individual in America, who might not come under the charge of being a member of some one or other self-created society. Associations of this kind, religious, political, and philosophical, were to be found in every quarter of the Continent. The Baptists and Methodists, for example, might be termed self-created societies. The people called the Friends, were of the same kind. Every pulpit in the United States might be included in this vote of censure, since, from every one of them, upon occasion, instructions had been delivered, not only for the eternal welfare, but likewise for the temporal happiness of the people. There had been other societies in Pennsylvania for several purposes. The venerable Franklin had been at the head of one, entitled a society for political information. They had criminated the conduct of the Governor of this State and of the Governors of other States, yet they were not prosecuted or disturbed. There was, if he mistook not, once a society in this State, for the purpose of opposing or subverting the existing constitution. They also were unmolested. If the House are to censure the Democratic societies, they might do the same by the Cincinnati Society. It is out of the way of the Legislature to attempt checking or restraining public opinion. If the self-created societies act contrary to law, they are unprotected, and let the law pursue them. That a man is a member of one of these societies will not protect him from an accusation for treason, if the charge is well founded. If the charge is not well founded, if the societies, in their proceedings, keep within the verge of the law, Mr. G. would be glad to learn what was to be the sequel? If the House undertake to censure particular classes of men, who can tell where they will stop? Perhaps it may be advisable to commence moral philosophers, and compose a new system of ethics for the citizens of America. In that case, there would be many other subjects for censure, as well as the self-created societies. Land-jobbing, for example, has been in various instances brought to such a pass that it might be defined swindling on a broad scale. Paper money, also, would be a subject of very tolerable fertility for the censure of a moralist. Mr. G. proceeded to enumerate other particulars on this head, and again insisted on the sufficiency of the existing laws for the punishment of every existing abuse. He observed, that gentlemen were sent to this House, not for the purpose of passing indiscriminate votes of censure, but to legislate only. By adopting the amendment of Mr. Fitzsimons, the House would only produce recrimination on the part of the societies, and raise them into much more importance than they possibly could have acquired if they had not been distinguished by a vote of censure from that House. Gentlemen were interfering with a delicate right, and they would be much wiser to let the Democratic societies alone. Did the House imagine that their censure, like the wand of a magician, would lay a spell on these people? It would be quite the contrary, and the recrimination of the societies would develope the propriety of having meddled with them at all. One thing ought never to be forgotten, that if these people acted wrong, the law was open to punish them; and if they did not, they would care very little for a vote of that House. Why all this particular deviation from the common line of business to pass random votes of censure? The American mind was too enlightened to bear the interposition of this House, to assist either in their contemplations or conclusions on this subject. Members are not sent here to deal out applauses or censures in this way. Mr. G. rejected all aiming at a restraint on the opinions of private persons. As to the societies themselves, Mr. G. personally had nothing to do with them, nor was he acquainted with any of the persons concerned in their original organization.

Mr. Lyman hoped that the member from Pennsylvania would, upon reflection, withdraw his amendment. Mr. L. considered it to be as improper to pass a vote of censure, as it would be to pass a vote of approbation. He did not wish to give printers an opportunity of publishing debates that had better be suppressed. Besides, where will this business of censorship end? It would be much better not to meddle with the Democratic societies at all. Some of them were perfectly sensible that they had gone too far. He should, therefore, move that this committee do now rise, and that the Chairman report the Address as it now stands.

Mr. Thatcher hoped that his colleague would not insist on taking that question just now, before other gentlemen had an opportunity of delivering their sentiments.

Mr. Lyman, in reply, said that gentlemen were at liberty, in discussing his motion, to tell their minds as to the self-created societies.

Mr. Sedgwick requested that Mr. Lyman would take this motion out of the way. Mr. L. withdrew it.

Mr. W. Smith then rose, and entered at large into the subject. He said, that if the committee withheld an expression of their sentiments in regard to the societies pointed out by the President, their silence would be an avowed desertion of the Executive. He had no scruple to declare that the conduct of these people had tended to blow up the insurrection. Adverting to Mr. Giles, he thought the assertion of that gentleman too broad, when he spoke of not meddling with the opinions of other than political societies.

He considered the dissemination of improper sentiments as a suitable object for the public reprobation of that House. Suppose an agricultural society were to establish itself, and under that title to disseminate opinions subversive of good order; the difference of a name should not make Mr. S. think them exempted from becoming objects of justice. Would any man say that the sole object of self-created societies has been the publication of political doctrines? The whole of their proceedings has been a chain of censures on the conduct of Government. If we do not support the President, the silence of the House will be interpreted into an implied disapprobation of that part of his Speech. He will be left in a dilemma. It will be said that he has committed himself.

Mr. S. declared that he was a friend to the freedom of the press; but would any one compare a regular town-meeting where deliberations were cool and unruffled, to these societies, to the nocturnal meetings of individuals, after they have dined, where they shut their doors, pass votes in secret, and admit no members into their societies, but those of their own choosing? Mr. S., by way of illustration, observed, that this House had never done much business after dinner. In objection to this amendment it had been stated, that the self-created societies would acquire importance from a vote of censure passed on them. They were, for his part, welcome to the whole importance that such a vote could give them. He complained, in strong terms, of the calumnies and slanders which they had propagated against Government. Every gentleman who thought that these clubs had done mischief, was by this amendment called upon to avow his opinion. This was the whole. Mr. S. begged the House to take notice, and he repeated his words once or twice, that he did not mean to go into the constitution of these societies, or to say that they were illegal. The question before the House was not whether these societies were illegal or not, but whether they have been mischievous in their consequences.

Mr. McDowell was of opinion that the term self-created societies, was too indefinite. He professed the highest respect for the character of the President; but he did not think that the proposed vote of censure would be any eligible proof of it. The House of Representatives were assembled not to volunteer in passing votes of reprobation on societies, or individuals, but to legislate. He wished that gentlemen, instead of losing their time on such frivolous and inflammatory amendments, would proceed to the proper business of the House. The gentleman from South Carolina seemed to be well acquainted with Democratic societies. It was very true that they had published resolutions reprobating the assumption business, and the system of funding; but the rest of the people, as well as Democratic societies, had very generally censured the assumption and the funding transactions. He thought that some laws had been passed which answered no good purpose, nor indeed any purpose, but that of irritating the public. The present amendment he considered as destructive not only to the intercourse of domestic society, but that it involved a prospect of throwing restraint upon the conduct of gentlemen in the House of Representatives. With the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Giles,) he was satisfied that the amendment, if adopted, would have no weight whatever with the citizens of the United States; as they were too enlightened to accept of opinions from their Representatives.

Mr. Tracy had imagined that no man would have the hardihood to come forward in that House and vindicate these societies. He quoted from the remarks of Mr. McDowell, the words, "your wanton laws, begotten in darkness, first raised insurrection;" and likewise some other words about the enormous expense of millions for the Western expedition. Mr. T., after reading these expressions from a memorandum, which he held in his hand, declared his surprise, that a gentleman, whom he knew to possess the candor and good sense of the member from North Carolina, could suffer such language to escape him. He was certain that the gentleman, if he had not been somewhat in a hurry, never would have permitted those words to pass from his lips.

Quitting this topic, Mr. T. said, that he would, for his own part, be disposed to let these societies alone, and leave them to the chastisement of their own consciences. If they were to say, "Gentlemen, you, as tyrants, make laws, and slaves obey them," I would answer, said Mr. T., "It is very rash. Think again before you say this again. We believe that, from inadvertency, some things have escaped from Democratic societies, which they had not well weighed, and which had a bad effect on weak and ignorant people in the western counties of Pennsylvania. You have seen the bad effects of your temerity. Take care before you publish any such thing again." Mr. T. said, this is all the length which we mean to go, and can any body object to this? The Democratic societies form but a very small portion of the people of America. Where is the harm in saying that one-hundredth, or, I believe I might say, not more than one-thousandth part of the citizens of the United States have been mistaken, and that they have been imprudent in printing certain indiscreet resolutions? Mr. T. declared that if the President had not spoke of the matter, he should have been willing to let it alone, because whenever a subject of that kind was touched, there were certain gentlemen in that House who shook their backs, like a sore-backed horse, and cried out, The Liberties of the people! Mr. T. wished only that the House, if their opinion of these societies corresponded with that of the President, should declare that they had such an opinion. This was quite different from attempting to legislate on the subject. Has not the Legislature done so before? Is there any impropriety in paying this mark of respect to a man to whom all America owes such indelible obligations? He thought that this declaration from the House of Representatives would tend to discourage Democratic societies, by uniting all men of sense against them. Mr. T. said, that perhaps the member who spoke last might be connected with some of these societies, of which he entertained so favorable an impression.

Mr. McDowell said, that he wanted the House to avoid quarrels, and to mind their proper business of legislation. He declared that he was not a member of any such society. He did not know that he had ever been in the company of any person who was a member of any of them. He was even, he declared upon his honor, ignorant whether there were, or ever had been, any such societies in North Carolina. He adverted to the simile of the sore-backed horse, and said that he believed his back to have been rubbed harder in the last war, than that of the gentleman. He imagined that these societies had done both good and harm, and again declared, that he could not consent to a vote of indiscriminate reprobation.

Mr. Dayton was heartily for the amendment. He observed that he wanted no evidence to satisfy him, as to the gentleman not being a member of any of these societies. If he had been connected with them, he would have known their principles better than he seems to do. Mr. D. said that many persons in New Jersey, who had been the most violent against the excise law were equally so against the insurgents; and though their opinion of the law itself was unaltered, which they made no scruple of openly declaring, yet they did not, on that account, hesitate about marching against the insurgents. They did not suppose that one obnoxious statute was any reason for overturning the Federal Constitution. The murmurs against the excise law in New Jersey had been converted into universal silence, because no man would venture to express his discontent, at the hazard of being suspected of being a friend to the insurgents. That the Democratic societies had produced the most mischievous effects in the western counties there could be no question. Letters had been received from officers in the army, who were the most respectable characters, and who, from authentic information, had affirmed the fact. It had been stated that these people would recriminate upon the House, and it had even been hinted that their recriminations might affect the President. That man, said Mr. D., is above their censure. He believed that if their censures had any effect at all, it would be to do the President honor.

Mr. Nicholas.—When we see an attempt made in this House to reprobate whole societies, on account of the conduct of individuals, it may truly be suspected that some of the members of this House have sore backs. The President has been apprised of the absurdity of making this a Legislative business. Here Mr. N. read a passage from the President's Speech, to show, that the notice taken of self-created societies was not intended for a topic of discussion in that House. The passage was expressly addressed to every description of citizens:

"And when in the calm moments of reflection, they shall have retraced the origin and progress of the insurrection, let them determine, whether it has been fomented by combinations of men, who, careless of consequences," &c.

Was this an address to the two Houses? Did this passage show that the President wanted them to intermeddle? Were they called upon to give an opinion? Where could be the pretence for any thing of this sort? The House have made acts. The Democratic societies reprobate them, and then the House reprobate the Democratic societies. When you first cut a man's throat, and thereafter call him a rascal, do you suppose that your accusation will affect the man's reputation? The House, by passing this vote of censure, would make themselves a party, and lose a title to unsuspected confidence. Mr. N. declared, that, for his own part, he never had any concern with these societies, nor ever to his knowledge had spent an hour with any person who was a member of them. He rather, if any thing, despised them. He had always thought them the very worst advocates for the cause which they espoused; but he had come two hundred miles to legislate, and not to reprobate private societies. He was not paid by his constituents for doing business of that sort. The President knew the business of the House better than to call for any such votes of censure. It was wrong to condemn societies for particular acts. That there never should be a Democratical society in America, said Mr. N., I would give my most hearty consent; but I cannot agree to persecution for the sake of opinions. With respect either to the propriety or the power of suppressing them, Mr. N. was in both cases equally of opinion that it was much better to let them alone. They must stand or fall by the general sentiments of the people of America. Is it possible that these societies can exist, for any length of time, when they are of no real use to the country? No. But this amendment will make the people at large imagine that they are of consequence.

Mr. Dayton said, that these societies had produced the Western insurrection, and, therefore, the committee were just as well entitled to institute an inquiry in this case, as formerly regarding the failure of the expedition of General St. Clair.

The committee now rose, and reported progress, and had leave to sit again.

Tuesday, November 25.

Another member, to wit, James Gillespie, from North Carolina, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

The President's Speech.

The House again went into Committee of the Whole on the Address of the President and the amendment of Mr. Fitzsimons, Mr. Cobb in the chair.

Mr. Murray said, that he did not altogether like the wording of the amendment now before the House. He had hoped that some modification of it would have been prepared by some of its friends; but as none was offered, and there was a call for the question, he would vote for it rather than against it. He said, that he had not been personally attacked by any of the tribunals in question, and no further injured by their machinations than as he was a citizen of a free Republic in whose prosperity he felt the closest possible union, and in whose calamities he of course felt great sympathy. Among the various sources of the late calamity, the President had traced and designated certain self-created societies, who had arrogated the management of public opinions and affairs, and whom he had declared to have been, in his opinion, instrumental in fomenting the late insurrection. Mr. M. confessed that he had feared, last winter, lest the disorganizing spirit which had gone abroad in the shape of resolutions from these societies, would have produced the effect ascribed to them by the President. The conduct of the Democratic clubs, or those of them with which he had most acquaintance, appeared to him to have been instrumental to an event which threatened destruction to legitimate government. If we believe this to be the case, Mr. M. knew no motive, duty, or policy, which ought to restrain us at this period from saying that we believe it, and from lamenting it. Our declaration will rather hold out a caution to the thoughtless, than inflict legal penalties upon their follies. It will present to our fellow-citizens a memorable example of one source of error and political misfortune, by showing them the danger, which has already cost above twelve hundred thousand dollars. He could not see any evil that was to result from an expression of the opinion of the House, by the proposed amendment. It had not the quality of law; for, if a law were proposed for the abolition of these societies, he would oppose it. This amendment to the Address would operate as an advice. It curtails not the right of a free press, which Mr. M. held to be the luminary of the public mind. It would tend to excite a judicious and salutary inquiry among many respecting the just and true limits within which a virtuous and enlightened well-wisher to our country would think it safe to exercise this right. Of the inutility and danger of such societies in this country, he had little doubt. The scene of their birthplace was well adapted to the wholesome display of their powers. In France, where a despotism, impregnable to public opinion, had reigned—where no channel opened a sympathy by representation with the great body of the nation—those societies were admirably adapted to break down and subvert the old bulwark of habitual authority. But in America the case was widely different. Look at the immense body of public functionaries, who in this country are elected immediately by the people, or by their electors, in a constitutional mode, and say whether they are not adequate as functionaries to the public purposes of the country. Including every description of Legislators, Councils, Governors, Courts, Jurors, and Sheriffs, there are above twelve thousand. Of these, more than eleven hundred are actual Legislators, besides the hundred in this House, and those above stairs. These all act in the States, counties, townships, and hundreds, in separate but relative circles, so as to preclude a partial attention to any one scene, to the exclusion of another. The whole country is full of well-constituted organs of the people's will. Many of these Legislatures are in session twice a year, and all of them annually. We might be confused by their immense number, were they not so admirably dispersed over the Continent, and did they not move under the guidance of the laws, with the harmony of the spheres. It would not be easy to organize the nation into a more multifarious shape.

The case maintained by Mr. Dayton yesterday appeared to be strong. He said that we had inquired into the defeat of St. Clair's army, and so we might into the causes of the insurrection. To point it out to a people so enlightened, will be to prevent it in future. If the House agree in opinion with the President, they will speak their opinion, and do their duty. This declaration goes to the constituent body, through the Executive; and, while it gratifies their inquiries in a point of so much solicitude, it erects a warning beacon. It shows to them the stormy breakers which lately threatened the public peace with shipwreck, and invites them to adhere to pilots of their own choosing, and to charts with which they are acquainted.

If the President had not thought some of the societies instrumental in producing the late calamity, they would not have attracted his notice, nor that of the House. It is because they are believed to have assisted and fomented the insurrection, that our constituents ought to be warned against them; and that another necessity for exerting their patriotism may be saved to those brave men who are at present encountering every difficulty in the West. These societies are not attended to, because, however offensive some of their proceedings and doctrines may have been, yet the rights of the press ought not to be freely handled.

Mr. Fitzsimons had no violent predilection for any performance of his own. He had, therefore, to prevent so much disputing, prepared to withdraw his motion, provided the committee be willing that he should do so, and, in the room of this motion, he would read another, for which he was indebted to a gentleman at his right hand, (Mr. B. Bourne.)

The committee consented. The former motion was withdrawn, and the other was read. This was an echo of that part of the speech of the President which mentions self-created societies.

Mr. Christie then rose. He was sorry to differ from his worthy colleague (Mr. Murray) on the question then before the committee; and he was doubly sorry to hear that gentleman labor so strenuously to saddle a public odium on some of the best citizens of the State which he represented. Mr. C. should not have risen on the present occasion, although he thought it an important one, had it not been to endeavor to rescue from public censure a society of gentlemen, who were described in the present amendment before the committee, as objects of public opprobrium. Mr. C. alluded to the Republican Society of the town of Baltimore. If the present amendment took place, that society would be involved in general and undeserved censure. He would, therefore, inform the House of what description of men the Republican Society of Baltimore consisted; and then the committee would be the best judges whether they ought to be rewarded in the manner in which the present amendment proposes. They are a society of gentlemen associated together for the purpose of diffusing political knowledge throughout the State of Maryland, and to instruct their Representatives in Congress, and the Legislature of the State, in any point that they think necessary, and not for the purpose of sowing dissension among the citizens of America, or of cultivating dislike to the Union, or to the laws. This society consists of men whose characters are superior to any censure that might be thrown against them, by the mover of the amendment. But when Congress are about to cast an odium on a particular society, the members of which have every respect for that body, and have always inculcated obedience to the laws of the United States, Mr. C. left it to the committee to determine whether, if they were themselves in the place of the Baltimore Society, they would not feel their sensibility materially wounded? Was not this returning good for evil? He again reminded the committee that the Republican Society at Baltimore was composed of a band of patriots, not the fair-weather patriots of the present day, but the patriots of seventy-five, the men who were not afraid to rally around the American standard, when that station was almost concluded to be a forlorn hope. They were men who, with their persons and properties, had assisted to drive from the soil of America the present lawless disturbers of the world. Are these the men, asked Mr. C., who ought to have all this mass of Congressional odium cast upon them? I trust not, sir. I trust, that if particular gentlemen are illiberal enough to censure them, yet that this House will never agree to such iniquitous measures. What was the conduct of this society when the first news of the late insurrection reached them? Did they not, in the most pointed manner, discountenance any such proceeding? Did they not refuse to correspond with any society that aided, or in any manner abetted, the insurrection? They did more. They offered their personal services to go and help to crush this commotion in the bud. Mr. C. subjoined that he would venture to say, and at the same time he spoke within bounds, that nine-tenths of this society actually took up their muskets and marched into the field for the above laudable purpose, and that numbers of them still continue there, and are the friends of peace and order, and not the disorganizers that the present amendment would make them. Mr. C. appealed to the candor of the committee to say, whether the Baltimore self-created Republican Society were the description of men whom the President, in his Speech, meant to describe. He was sure it was not. Therefore, why involve in this indiscriminate censure men who have deserved so well of their country? men who, instead of having odium cast upon them, merit every praise which the Federal Government can bestow. For these, and some other reasons, Mr. C. declared that he should vote against the amendment, and he trusted that he should vote in the majority.

Mr. Murray rose to explain. He did not mean this society. It was the Philadelphia and Pittsburg societies. Mr. M. was acquainted with this society, and had the greatest respect for them. As for the members of the other societies, he was for gibbeting their principles only.

Mr. Rutherford.—This alarm is owing to an overgrown moneyed system, with which the people are not entirely satisfied. But the moneyholders need not be afraid. The people will pay the public debt. Then why disturb the tranquillity of the people? The President, in his Speech, points only at combinations over the mountains. As to the character of the President himself, to praise him was like holding up a rush candle to let us see the sun. I have known that man, said Mr. R., for these forty years. I have had the honor of serving under him in the last war, and of frequently executing his wise and noble orders. The member declared that this amendment could answer no purpose but that of disturbing the public peace. He himself represented as respectable a district as any in Virginia, and he had as good opportunities as any gentleman in that House to know the temper of Americans. They were firmly attached to the present Government, and the holders of paper need not be so much afraid of Democratic societies, for the people, to preserve the tranquillity, were determined to discharge the public debt, no matter how it was contracted, and, therefore, it would be much better not to harass the public mind with amendments like that on the table.

Mr. Giles said, that he had an amendment to propose that would, he hoped, meet with the approbation of a certain description of gentlemen in that committee. His amendment was to strike out the words "self-created societies," from the amendment of Mr. Fitzsimons, and insert "the Democratic societies of Philadelphia, New York, and Pittsburg." Gentlemen could then have some specific object at which they could say that their vote of censure was levelled; for the general expression of self-created, comprehended every society of any kind in the Union. For his own part, he was very far from wanting to censure any set of men for their political opinions.

Mr. Parker seconded the motion for striking out, but he would not consent to the insertion proposed by Mr. Giles.

Mr. Sedgwick thought that the amendment stands better as it is at present.

Mr. Venable said, that there was a paper on that table (he referred to the letter from Mr. Hamilton to the President) which showed that the combinations in the western counties began their existence at the very same time with the Excise law itself. It was, therefore, entirely improper to ascribe them to Democratic societies. Should Government, said Mr. V., come forward and show their imbecility by censuring what we cannot punish? The people have a right to think and a right to speak. I am not afraid to speak my sentiments. I am not afraid of being called a disorganizer. I am, as much as any gentleman in this committee, a friend to regular government.

Mr. Dexter believed that such societies were, in themselves, wrong, but he was still not for making laws against them. He had, however, numerous objections to their conduct. One of these was, that they erected themselves into a model for the rest of their fellow-citizens to copy. The great principle of Republicanism was, that the minority should submit to the will of the majority. But these people have elevated themselves into tyrants. Such societies are proper in a country where government is despotic, but it is improper that such societies should exist in a free country like the United States, and hence, Mr. D. was a friend to the amendment proposed by Mr. Fitzsimons. It had been said, that it was unusual to give opinions of this kind, but, in reality, the House were in the practice of expressing their sentiments on matters of that sort, in such addresses as the one now before them. Mr. D. was decidedly against the amendment of the amendment proposed by Mr. Giles.

Mr. Nicholas.—Gentlemen have brought us into a discussion, and then say we must decide as they please, in deference to the President. This is the real ground and foundation of their arguments. But who started this question? If the gentlemen have brought themselves into a difficulty with regard to the President, by their participation in proposing votes of censure which they cannot carry through, they have only to blame themselves. Is it expected, said Mr. N., that I am to abandon my independence for the sake of the President? He never intended that we should take any such notice of his reference to these societies; but if the popularity of the President has, in the present case, been committed, let those who have hatched this thing, and who have brought it forward, answer for the consequences. This whole question turns upon a matter of fact, which ought to be proved, viz: Have the Democratic societies been one of the principal causes of the Western insurrection? This is a matter of fact, or otherwise, and it depends upon direct evidence. But how do gentlemen handle this question? They digress into abstract propositions, a thing never heard of before, where a matter of fact was to be proved. I say, where direct proof is wanted, we see gentlemen standing on the floor for half an hour together, without attempting to advance a single fact in support of their assertions; yet this is the only admissible kind of evidence that the societies are from their nature unfriendly to the Federal Government.

Mr. N. then adverted to a remark which had been made, that libels were daily prosecuted in this country, from which it was inferred that calumnious attacks on Government were the just objects of reprehension. Mr. N. said, that the comparison was not fair, because in a case of libel, the parties accused have a proper opportunity to defend themselves. Have these people here (the Democratic societies) any such opportunity? It has been alleged, as a crime against them, that they have never once published any approbation of any measure of Government. Mr. N. argued that this arose from the very nature of their institution, which was to watch the errors of the Legislature and Executive, and point out to the public what they considered to be mistakes. Faults were the only kind of facts which they were in quest of. Here Mr. N. drew a material distinction. If these societies had censured every proceeding of Government, there would have been the greatest reason for taking some measures. But what was the case? As to an immense number of the proceedings of the Executive and Legislature, they had taken no notice whatever.

Mr. Sedgwick thought that the President would have been defective in his duty, had he omitted to mention what he religiously believed to be true, viz: that the Democratic societies had in a great measure originated the late disturbances. It was the indispensable duty of the President to speak as he had spoken. The present amendment (of Mr. Fitzsimons) would have a tendency to plunge these societies into contempt, and to sink them still farther into abhorrence and detestation. He pronounced them to be illicit combinations. One gentleman (Mr. Nicholas) tells you, that he despises them most heartily. Another (Mr. Lyman) says that they begin to repent. Will the American people perversely propose to shoulder and bolster up these despised and repenting societies, which are now tumbling into dust and contempt? Their conduct differed as far from a fair and honorable investigation, as Christ and Belial. They were men prowling in the dark. God is my judge, said Mr. S., that I would not wish to check a fair discussion.

One gentleman (Mr. McDowell) had told the committee, that the Assumption and Funding transactions were a cause of public discontent. It has been the trick of these people to make this assertion. They have said that the Funding System is a mass of favoritism, for the purpose of erecting an oppressive aristocracy, and a paper nobility. There is not a man among them, who is able to write, and who does not know that these assertions are false. As to the assumption of the debts of individual States, it has been said that this measure was undertaken for the purpose of making up a large debt. There was no such thing. Before the adoption of the new constitution, of which Mr. S. considered the Funding and Assumption Systems to be essential preliminaries, the credit and commerce of America were declining or gone. The States were disagreeing at home, and the American name was disgraced abroad. It was not to be supposed that every one of the measures of the new Government could please every body. Among the rest, excise was objected to in both Houses of Congress; but at last the good sense of the people acquiesced. At this crisis, a foreign agent (Genet) landed at Charleston. On his way to this city, he was attended by the hosannas of all the disaffected. He did the utmost mischief that was in his power; and in consequence of his efforts, Democratic societies sprung up. Mr. S. here gave a particular account of some proceedings of a society in Virginia, of more than usual boldness. He quoted some of their expressions relative to a very illustrious character, the President, and added that perhaps the individuals who composed this society were in themselves too despicable to deserve any notice in this place. He did not know whether they were or not. [Mr. S. was here interrupted by a member from Virginia, and an explanation ensued.]

Mr. McDowell rose to make an apology for some words which had escaped him the day before. He did not expect to have been so smartly handled. He had been forcibly struck at the time, and had spoken from a momentary impulse. In substance, however, he adhered to all his former allegations. He still persisted in believing that the excise laws were shapen in darkness. He apologized for some part of his heat, from having seen and suffered so much by despotic government during the last war in which this gentleman supported the character of a brave and able officer.

Mr. Hillhouse approved of the amendment; as proposed by Mr. Fitzsimons. Constituents made no scruple to tell Representatives of their faults, and he saw no reason why Representatives might not tell constituents of theirs? The resolutions of Democratic societies printed in newspapers, had spirited up the people in the Western counties to resistance. They had weakly fancied that the American nation would not stand by their constitution and their President. But for the publication of these resolutions, there would have been no insurrection. This was a piece of information which the people of the United States had a right to know. It was the duty of that House to let them know it. The President had done his duty. Mr. H. did not consider the amendment of Mr. Fitzsimons as an indiscriminate censure levelled at these societies; he thought it only a suitable answer to a part of the President's Speech.

Mr. Parker concluded this long debate by the following remarks. He did not think that Democratic societies were so far to blame as had been imagined. He suspected that the President himself, for whose character and services he felt as much respect and gratitude as any man in America, had been misinformed on this point. It would be absurd to say, that the Western disturbances originated from the publications of Democratic societies, if it could be proved to the satisfaction of the committee, that such disturbances had begun long before any of the associations alluded to had a being. To prove this position, Mr. P. desired that the Clerk might read a passage from the letter on that affair, written by Mr. Hamilton, and which has already been published in all the newspapers. The Clerk accordingly read a part of the letter, from which Mr. P. inferred that his inference was incontestable, and he then stated the absurdity of making the Democratic publications the origin of a discontent, which existed before them. He was satisfied that the President did not wish this thing echoed; and that he would entirely disapprove of the proposed persecution. Mr. P. said, that he had the honor of being an honorary member of a Democratic society. Personally he knew nothing of the gentlemen, but he understood that they were respectable characters; and that they were friends to good order and the Federal Government, there could be no question, for when the Embargo was laid last spring, and some vessels had been attempting to get off, these vigilant citizens armed and embodied themselves, and prevented the execution of the design. With all his respect for the President, he was not to give up his opinions for the sake of any man. He was convinced that all this violent declamation and irritation in the House would do a great deal of mischief, and would have an effect exactly the reverse of what was designed by the amendment as it first stood. A gentleman (Mr. Dexter) had spoken of town meetings, as the proper vehicles for the communication of political ideas, and had drawn a comparison between these and Democratic societies. Mr. P. requested that it might be noticed, that in the Southern States there neither were nor could be such things as town meetings, because the population was too thin and too widely scattered. They were therefore to make the best of it which they could, and meet and deliberate, no matter where, whenever they found a convenient opportunity. Mr. P. expressed, in strong terms the aversion that his constituents would feel to this species of censorship. He concluded with these words: "They love your Government much, but they love their independence more."

The question was then called for on striking out the word "self-created" from the new amendment of Mr. Fitzsimons. For the amendment of Mr. Giles, ayes 47, noes 45. This amendment was therefore adopted.

Mr. Giles then proposed an amendment, after the words "combination of men," by adding, "in the four Western counties of Pennsylvania."

Mr. Hartley said, that the gentleman should have added, "and a county in Virginia." This amendment of Mr. Giles was rejected.

The committee now rose, and reported the amendments to the House.

Wednesday, November 26.

[The committee having risen, and the question having been taken in the House, the yeas and nays on the motion to reinstate the obnoxious words, were:]

Yeas.—Fisher Ames, James Armstrong, John Beatty, Elias Boudinot, Shearjashub Bourne, Benjamin Bourne, Lambert Cadwalader, David Cobb, Peleg Coffin, Joshua Coit, William J. Dawson, Jonathan Dayton, Samuel Baxter, Thomas Fitzsimons, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, Samuel Griffin, William Barry Grove, Thomas Hartley, James Hillhouse, William Hindman, Samuel Holten, John Wilkes Kittera, Henry Latimer, Amasa Learned, Richard Bland Lee, Francis Malbone, William Vans Murray, Thomas Scott, Theodore Sedgwick, John S. Sherburne, Jeremiah Smith, William Smith, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Uriah Tracy, Jonathan Trumbull, John E. Van Allen, Peter Van Gaasbeck, Peleg Wadsworth, Artemas Ward, John Watts, and Paine Wingate.

Nays.—Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, Thomas Blount, Thomas P. Carnes, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, Isaac Coles, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, Gabriel Duvall, William Findlay, William B. Giles, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, George Hancock, Carter B. Harrison, John Heath, Daniel Heister, John Hunter, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, Joseph McDowell, Alexander Mebane, William Montgomery, Andrew Moore, Peter Muhlenberg, Joseph Neville, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Nathaniel Niles, Alexander D. Orr, Josiah Parker, Andrew Pickens, Francis Preston, Robert Rutherford, John Smilie, Israel Smith, Thomas Tredwell, Philip Van Cortlandt, Abraham Venable, Francis Walker, and Joseph Winston.

And then the main question being put, that the House do agree to the said clause, amended to read as followeth:

"In tracing the origin and progress of the insurrection, we can entertain no doubt that certain self-created societies and combinations of men in the four Western counties of Pennsylvania, and parts adjacent, careless of consequences, and disregarding the truth, by disseminating suspicions, jealousies, and accusations of the Government, have had all the agency you ascribe to them, in fomenting this daring outrage against social order and the authority of the laws:"

It passed in the negative, nineteen members only rising in the affirmative.

Friday, November 28.

Answer to the Address.

The Answer, as amended, was then read throughout at the Clerk's table as follows:

Sir: The House of Representatives, calling to mind the blessings enjoyed by the people of the United States, and especially the happiness of living under constitutions and laws which rest on their authority alone, could not learn, with other emotions than those you have expressed, that any part of our fellow-citizens should have shown themselves capable of an insurrection. And we learn, with the greatest concern, that any misrepresentations whatever, of the Government and its proceedings, either by individuals or combinations of men, should have been made, and so far credited as to foment the flagrant outrage which has been committed on the laws. We feel, with you, the deepest regret at so painful an occurrence in the annals of our country. As men regardful of the tender interests of humanity, we look with grief at scenes which might have stained our land with civil blood. As lovers of public order, we lament that it has suffered so flagrant a violation: as zealous friends of Republican Government, we deplore every occasion which, in the hands of its enemies, may be turned into a calumny against it.

This aspect of the crisis, however, is happily not the only one which it presents. There is another, which yields all the consolations which you have drawn from it. It has demonstrated to the candid world, as well as to the American people themselves, that the great body of them, every where, are equally attached to the luminous and vital principle of our constitution, which enjoins that the will of the majority shall prevail; that they understand the indissoluble union between true liberty and regular government; that they feel their duties no less than they are watchful over their rights; that they will be as ready, at all times, to crush licentiousness, as they have been to defeat usurpation: in a word, that they are capable of carrying into execution that noble plan of self-government which they have chosen as the guarantee of their own happiness, and the asylum for that of all, from every clime, who may wish to unite their destiny with ours.

These are the just inferences flowing from the promptitude with which the summons to the standard of the laws has been obeyed; and from the sentiments which have been witnessed, in every description of citizens, in every quarter of the Union. The spectacle, therefore, when viewed in its true light, may well be affirmed to display, in equal lustre, the virtues of the American character, and the value of Republican Government. All must particularly acknowledge and applaud the patriotism of that portion of citizens who have freely sacrificed every thing less dear than the love of their country, to the meritorious task of defending its happiness.

In the part which you have yourself borne through this delicate and distressing period, we trace the additional proofs it has afforded of your solicitude for the public good. Your laudable and successful endeavors to render lenity in executing the laws conducive to their real energy, and to convert tumult into order, without the effusion of blood, form a particular title to the confidence and praise of your constituents. In all that may be found necessary, on our part, to complete this benevolent purpose, and to secure the ministers and friends of the laws against the remains of danger, our due co-operation will be afforded.

The other subjects which you have recommended, or communicated, and of which several are peculiarly interesting, will all receive the attention which they demand. We are deeply impressed with the importance of an effectual organization of the militia. We rejoice at the intelligence of the advance and success of the army under the command of General Wayne, whether we regard it as a proof of the perseverance, prowess, and superiority of our troops, or as a happy presage to our military operations against the hostile Indians, and as a probable prelude to the establishment of a lasting peace, upon terms of candor, equity, and good neighborhood. We receive it with the greater pleasure, as it increases the probability of sooner restoring a part of the public resources to the desirable object of reducing the public debt.

We shall, on this, as on all occasions, be disposed to adopt any measure which may advance the safety and prosperity of our country. In nothing can we more cordially unite with you, than in imploring the Supreme Ruler of Nations to multiply His blessings on these United States; to guard our free and happy constitution against every machination and danger; and to make it the best source of public happiness, by verifying its character of being the best safeguard of human rights.

Resolved, That Mr. Speaker, attended by the House, do present the said address; and that Mr. Madison, Mr. Sedgwick, and Mr. Scott, be a committee to wait on the President, to know when and where it will be convenient for him to receive the same.

Mr. Giles, from the committee appointed, presented a bill to regulate the pay of the non-commissioned officers, musicians, and privates, of the militia of the United States, when called into actual service, and for other purposes; which was read twice and committed.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Treasurer of the United States, accompanying his account of receipts and expenditures of public moneys, from the 1st of April to the 30th of June, 1794; also, his account of payments and receipts for the War Department, from the 1st of July to the 30th of September, 1794, inclusive; which were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. Madison, from the committee appointed to wait on the President of the United States, to know when and where it will be convenient for him to receive the Address of this House, in answer to his Speech to both Houses of Congress, reported that the committee had waited on the President, who signified to them that it would be convenient to him to receive the said Address at twelve o'clock to-morrow, at his own house.

Saturday, November 29.

The Speaker, attended by the House, then withdrew to the house of the President of the United States, and there presented to him the Address of this House, in answer to his Speech to both Houses of Congress; to which the President made the following reply:

Gentlemen: I anticipated, with confidence, the concurrence of the House of Representatives in the regret produced by the insurrection. Every effort ought to be used to discountenance what has contributed to foment it; and thus discourage a repetition of like attempts. For, notwithstanding the consolations which may be drawn from the issue of this event, it is far better that the artful approaches to such a situation of things should be checked by the vigilant and duly admonished patriotism of our fellow-citizens, than that the evil should increase until it becomes necessary to crush it by the strength of their arms.

I am happy that the part which I have myself borne on this occasion receives the approbation of your House. For the discharge of a constitutional duty, it is a sufficient reward to me to be assured that you will unite in consummating what remains to be done.

I feel, also, great satisfaction in learning that the other subjects which I have communicated or recommended, will meet with due attention; that you are deeply impressed with the importance of an effectual organization of the militia; and that the advance and success of the army under the command of General Wayne is regarded by you, no less than myself, as a proof of the perseverance, prowess, and superiority of our troops. G. WASHINGTON.

Tuesday, December 2.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury, stating his intention of resigning his office on the last day of January next, and which he now communicates, in order that an opportunity may be given, previous to that event, to institute any further proceedings which may be contemplated, if any there be, in consequence of the inquiry during the last session, into the state of the Treasury Department; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table.[55]

Thursday, December 4.

Thanks to General Wayne.

Mr. W. Smith wished to make his promised motion, which he prefaced by observing that he had varied it at the request of several gentlemen. In the original motion, he had particularly noticed the diligence of the General in disciplining his army to the nature of the service in which they were engaged, and his fortitude and perseverance in encountering the difficulties which opposed his march through a wilderness.

Though he and many others were ready to acknowledge in the fullest manner the merits of the General in those important particulars, yet as they were not matters of general notoriety, and as unanimity on an occasion like the present was extremely desirable, he had now confined the motion to the brilliant action of the 20th August.

Mr. Smith concluded with saying, that as he had no doubt the services of the army had made the same impression on the House as they had on him, he trusted the motion he was about to make would be honored with a unanimous vote. He then moved the three resolutions, as follow:

Resolved, That the thanks of this House he given to Major General Wayne for the good conduct and bravery displayed by him in the action of the 20th August last with the Indians.

Resolved, unanimously, That the thanks of this House be given to the brave officers and soldiers of the legion under the orders of Major General Wayne, for their patience, fortitude, and bravery.

Resolved, That the thanks of this House be given to Major General Scott, and to the gallant mounted volunteers from the State of Kentucky, who have served their country in the field during the late campaign, under the orders of Major General Wayne, for their zeal, bravery, and good conduct.

Mr. Giles foresaw many bad consequences that might ensue from the practice of giving opinions of men. One part of the House might be for a vote of thanks, and the other against it. He should vote for the proposition, but wished that some mode might be adopted for expressing the general opinion of the House against the practice.

Mr. Kittera was for restoring the clause respecting the vigilance of General Wayne in attending to the discipline of his troops.

Mr. Hillhouse hoped that the resolutions would not be adopted. He should go farther than the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Giles) and vote against them. The House in their answer to the President, had expressed their approbation, and that was enough. It was not the business of that House, but of the Executive, to express such things. Mr. H. had voted most cordially for that part of the Address respecting the Western army. The Answer to the Speech of the President would always afford a good opportunity of conveying these kind of matters. It would immediately become necessary to give thanks in every case; and not to give them will be regarded as an implied censure. He trusted that the gentleman would withdraw his motion, and that the House in this way would get rid of it. He had, and he repeated it again, a high sense of the merit of the officers and soldiers of the army under General Wayne, but he had said so already in the Address to the President. It had been urged, as a precedent for this measure, that it was usual to thank the Speaker. This was a mere ceremony. He wished that it had never come into practice, but since it had been so, he should always agree to the vote of thanks.

Mr. Murray thought that we might trust that the House would always have too much prudence to abuse their thanks, by giving them improperly. By way of precedent Mr. M. read a vote of the State of Virginia, thanking Governor Lee for his conduct in the Western insurrection.

Mr. Nicholas approved highly of the conduct of the troops, but it was only an act of duty. If we send soldiers against the Indians, it is supposed that they will stand to their posts, otherwise the Government cannot be supported even for a month.

Mr. Hillhouse saw no business which the House had with the proceedings in the State of Virginia. It had been hinted that the army under General Wayne might feel disagreeably, if the resolution should be rejected. With that Mr. H. had no business. He acted on principles without regarding the feelings of individuals.

Mr. W. Smith agreed with gentlemen that the principal object of the House was to legislate; but it did not follow that they were to be confined merely to legislation. Every Legislative body exercised the right of opinion in cases where no act was to follow. This House has frequently exercised it: the answers to the President's Speech; the answer to the King of the French on his acceptance of the Constitution of ninety-one; the opinion of the House on the merits of that constitution; the vote respecting Benjamin Franklin; the vote of last session in reply to a letter from the Committee of Public Safety of France; the votes of thanks to the Speakers, were precedents on the journals which refuted a contrary doctrine. It had been said that the latter case was a mere matter of form. Mr. S. thought differently, and if ever he was in that House when a vote of thanks should be proposed to a Speaker who had no claim to it, he should feel it his duty to oppose it. Gentlemen apprehended that this practice might lead to innumerable difficulties hereafter. But every House would exercise its judgment and discretion. Members would not be so rash as to propose the thanks of the House where serious opposition was expected, nor would the thanks be voted unless well merited. He was unwilling as any member to make the thanks of the House too cheap; but all must confess that if ever there was an occasion where they were properly called for, this was one. To deny the right or expediency of the practice was in fact to strip the House of one of its most agreeable functions, that of expressing its gratitude.

It had been advanced as an objection, that the two Houses might differ; one might vote thanks and the other censure, in the same case; but that might happen in other cases where the propriety of expressing an opinion was admitted; in answering the President's Speech in the State Legislatures, where thanks were frequently voted, the two branches might differ; that was never deemed an objection to the practice; each House expressed its individual opinion.

Mr. Smith said, if the House had been sitting in September last when the account arrived of this victory, would the members have then felt as coldly as they now do? No: he was convinced that in the moment of joy and gratitude, they would have unanimously voted thanks to the army without the least hesitation; but they have since had time to cool, and the impression is worn away.

Gentlemen should consider the hard services of that army; how badly paid they were; the nature of the country they were in; and then determine whether the brilliant action of the 20th August is to go unrewarded? To appreciate truly the merits of that army in obtaining so signal a victory, let the House reflect on the consequences of a defeat: the army disbanded and broken up; the frontiers exposed to the ferocious savages; the combination of the tribes more cemented and formidable; an expensive, long, and bloody war. What is now our prospect? The frontiers protected; the combination of the tribes dissolved, and peace with them all a probable event.

Before, therefore, the motion which he had made could be got rid of, it was incumbent on the gentlemen on the other side to show, either that it was improper in any case whatever to pass a vote of thanks, or that this was not a case entitled to them; to do the first they must establish, in the face of precedents innumerable, a doctrine destructive of one of the most amiable privileges of the House; to do the last, they must express a sentiment which would, he was persuaded, be repugnant to the sentiments of all their constituents, for throughout the United States there was but one opinion on this subject, and that was in unison with the motion. Having made the motion after due deliberation, he certainly should not withdraw it; but would submit it to the good sense of the House.