FOURTH CONGRESS.—FIRST SESSION. (continued 10)

That the defects of this instrument of compact with Britain greatly exceeded its merits, was a truth which was strongly impressed upon his mind, long before he had heard the reasoning of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Madison,) who had opened the debate. Although that gentleman had sketched its deformities in strong colors, and had in some instances, perhaps, exaggerated them; yet, Mr. D. said, he should not have contested the justice of the picture he had exhibited, if he had, at the same time, presented to their view, in true and faithful coloring, the other side of it also. Yet, this was surely necessary in order to enable them to form a right judgment. That member had declared that the House were now called upon to approve the Treaty, but Mr. D. was far from believing such a declaration warranted by the language or nature of the propositions on the table, to which all might assent, without pledging themselves to be the approvers of the instrument itself.

So firmly convinced was he of this, that, if he could subscribe to the truth and force of every objection that had been urged by that gentleman, he should, nevertheless, by no means conclude with him, that the House ought to withhold the appropriations, but, on the contrary, they ought to grant them. This would be his course of conduct, because difficulties and inconveniences alone presented themselves to their view and choice, and he thought he should act unfaithfully, if he endeavored to shun those on the one side only, without regarding the wide scene of dangers into which he might plunge his country on the other. What would be thought of that man, who, because the road he was travelling proved to be an uneven and rough one, should considerately betake himself to an opposite path without exploring the precipice that awaited him there? In the individual it would be deemed an evidence of madness, and such heedless conduct in that House could not escape the imputation of blindness. Under impressions of this sort, as to the importance of the vote he was about to give, he conceived himself bound to extend his views beyond the mere intrinsic merits of the Treaty, and to estimate the evils which must flow from a rejection of it. What, he asked, were these? Would a foreign war, and the dissolution of the Government be the certain fruits of a rejection, as had been represented by some gentlemen whose opinions he respected? These would certainly be amongst the most dreadful calamities which could befall a country, and, especially, one made up of Confederacies like this; and although he did not think them probable, yet, they must be admitted to be possible, and as such, justify those who allow them to influence their minds. But he appealed to those gentlemen who seemed to treat such apprehensions as perfectly chimerical, whether there might not be others, which, though less alarming than a foreign war and dissolution of the Union, would yet exceed—nay, very far exceed, those which are to follow the operation of the Treaty. The first fruit of a rejection would be, Mr. D. said, a claim from the merchants who had suffered by spoliations, to be fully indemnified from the Treasury. He called upon the members who, like himself, represented agricultural States; and he called, also, upon those who represented the landed and agricultural interests in the commercial States, to declare, whether they were prepared to burden their constituents with a tax of five millions of dollars to be thus applied?

He did not fear that he should be charged, as others had been, with sounding a false alarm. A proposition to that effect had already been laid on the table, and, what was not a little singular, it was founded on a presumption that the Treaty was to be annulled by a vote of the House, and was to derive its support from that very circumstance. Mr. D. thought it his duty to remind gentlemen of the doctrine uttered by the member from New York, (Mr. Livingston,) when he moved it, as well as of the extent of the principle contained in it. It is an established principle, said the mover, that protection is equally due to the person and property of all citizens, and that where the Government fails to protect, it is bound to indemnify for all the losses that may be sustained by every individual in consequence of such failure. They were, therefore, Mr. D. said, if they rejected the Treaty, to be immediately called upon to recognize a principle which would not only pledge them to tax their fellow-citizens for the five millions, at which the British spoliations were estimated, but, also, to make compensation for every depredation that might hereafter be made upon their trade; nay, more, for every injury that any American citizen might suffer through want of protection. He was aware that he might be told that the resolution embraced only merchants who had suffered, but he contended that the principle, when established, must extend to all; for he challenged any gentleman to show what better title they who inhabited the frontier next the sea, had to claim Governmental protection and indemnification, than they who inhabited a frontier on the land side? If, therefore, they were determined to compensate from the Treasury the merchant for his plundered cargo, they were equally bound to pay the frontier settler for his stolen horse; and there would be no bounds to such claims, or means to satisfy them.

It had been asked what would be the conduct of Britain, when they should learn that the House of Representatives had refused to make appropriations for the Treaty. He was disposed to think that they would not consider it a cause, or make it a pretext, for the war. Having in their hands the fur trade, the Western posts, and about five millions of dollars, of which they had despoiled the people of these States, they might probably sit down contented with the spoils they had made, after this Government had, by its own act, dissolved the stipulations they had entered into to make restitution and compensation. But what, in this state of things, would restrain their piratical cruisers in the West Indies? They, whether hoping that a war would be the consequence of annulling the Treaty, or that, as the two nations were no longer under that tie, they might again rob with impunity; and would probably seize on American vessels wherever they could meet them, and carry them into those ports in which corrupt Judges stood ready to condemn them.

So far as this question respected a dissolution of the present Government, it was certainly a very delicate one. Important as the subject under debate unquestionably was, he was free to declare it to be his opinion that no decision, however unfavorable it might seem, could justify, or would produce a separation of the States. He lamented that it had been conceived or mentioned by any one, for he should, whilst he had strength, resist such an event as the most fatal that could befall his country, and would cling to the Union as the rock of their political salvation. But he would not say, nor would any one else seriously say, that there was no room to apprehend that a rejection might produce suspicions, jealousies, distrusts, and discord between the one part of the Union and the other, and such a general fermentation in the public mind as never before prevailed.

He could not here refrain from making a serious appeal to the candor and good sense of the gentleman from Virginia. Having served with him many years in public life—in the old Congress, under the Confederation, in the Federal Convention, and for nearly six years under the present form of Government, he had, upon many and various occasions, witnessed the display of his superior talents, and the efforts of his patriotism, and derived from thence a conviction that, as at no former moment, so neither at the present, could he appeal to those qualities in that gentleman in vain. Mr. D. requested him to turn his attention to the last article of the British Treaty, and particularly that part of it which is in the words following, viz:

"This Treaty, when the same shall have been ratified by His Majesty and by the President of the United States, by and with the advice and consent of their Senate, and the respective ratifications mutually exchanged, shall be binding and obligatory on His Majesty and on the said States, and shall be by them respectively executed and observed with punctuality and the most sincere regard to good faith," &c.

He called upon the gentleman from Virginia to show in what line or word of it the President had exceeded his authority, or, if that was not pretended, and he believed it was not by any one, he wished that gentleman to reflect for a moment how it was possible to refuse appropriations, and yet preserve inviolate the faith of this country, so solemnly pledged in that article.

Mr. D. concluded with observing that, although he was not pleased with many parts of the Treaty—although he had never felt any strong predilection for an intimate connection with Britain—although he had never seen their encroachments on the rights, nor their depredations upon the property of American citizens with an indulgent eye, or in the temper of tame submission, and although he had long ceased to entertain any respect for the negotiator, yet he should vote for the resolution, because he loved his country, and to that love, would sacrifice every resentment, every prejudice, every personal consideration. He should vote to carry the Treaty into effect with good faith, because he sincerely believed that the interests of his fellow-citizens would be much more promoted by that, than by the opposite line of conduct.

The question was then put on the resolution, which is in substance as follows:

Resolved, That it is expedient to make the necessary appropriations for carrying the Treaty with Great Britain into effect.

The House divided, forty-nine for the resolution, forty-nine against it.

It remained for the Chairman, Mr. Muhlenberg, to decide.

He said, he did not feel satisfied with the resolution as it now stood; he should, however, vote for it, that it might go to the House, and there be modified.

The resolution was consequently agreed to, and reported to the House.

[The following statement will show the true sense of the House as to the expediency of carrying the British Treaty into effect:

Forty-nine voted for this expediency.

Forty-nine against it.

The Chairman, Mr. Muhlenberg, to give an opportunity further to consider the resolution, voted for it.

Mr. Patton from Delaware was ill, and was necessarily absent. It is, however, well understood, that he is opposed to the Treaty.

Mr. Varnum was accidentally absent. He is no friend to the Treaty.

Messrs. Freeman, Sherburne, and Van Cortlandt are absent on leave.

Mr. Duvall has resigned, and his successor has not yet taken his seat.

From which it is evident that there is an actual majority of the House against the expediency of carrying the Treaty into execution.]

Saturday, April 30.

Execution of British Treaty.

The House then took up the resolution yesterday passed in a Committee of the Whole, for carrying into effect the Treaty lately negotiated with Great Britain: when

Mr. Dearborn said, as it appeared that a majority of that House was in favor of carrying into effect the British Treaty, notwithstanding several of those gentlemen who had declared their intention of voting for it, had declared they thought it a bad Treaty, and as he wished to see the opinion the House entertained of the Treaty entered upon their journals, he took the liberty of proposing an amendment to the resolution in the following words:

"Resolved, That, although in the opinion of this House the Treaty is highly objectionable, and may prove injurious to the United States, yet, considering all the circumstances relating thereto, and particularly, that the last eighteen articles are to continue in force only during the present war, and two years thereafter, and confiding also in the efficacy of measures that may be taken for bringing about a discontinuance of the violations committed on our neutral rights, in regard to our vessels and seamen, therefore, &c."

Mr. Coit hoped the yeas and nays would be taken upon the question; which was agreed to.

Mr. Goodhue hoped the House would not agree to the resolution; he, for one, would never agree to it.

Mr. Swanwick hoped the amendment would be agreed to; for whatever some gentlemen's opinion might be with respect to the propriety of carrying the Treaty into effect, very few thought it a good Treaty. An amendment, therefore, declaring the motives which actuated that House in passing the resolution for carrying the Treaty into effect was very desirable; it would induce some gentlemen to vote for it, who would otherwise vote against it, and it ought not to excite objection. He appealed to the recollection of gentlemen, the arguments which had been used to enforce the necessity of the appropriations, which laid great stress upon the shortness of time which the most objectionable part of the Treaty was to be in force. He hoped, therefore, these arguments would not be objected to in the form of a resolution.

Mr. Hillhouse said, when he prepared the resolution on the table, he thought he had done it in such general terms that every gentleman might vote for it, without expressing a sentiment contrary to what he entertained respecting the Treaty. The amendment proposed, he thought very objectionable. It appeared as if it was intended to force gentlemen to vote against carrying the Treaty into effect rather than vote for the Treaty. For his own part, he could not vote for it, as it would be in direct contradiction to the sentiments which he had before expressed. He thought candor itself could not expect gentlemen who approved of the Treaty to vote for the amendment. It was also a rule to avoid expressing particular sentiments in resolutions of this kind. One part of the proposition, if it was brought forward separately, would be assented to generally, respecting the confidence placed in the President, with respect to future spoliations and impressments of men. In this proposition, it was said, the Treaty was injurious; he did not believe it was so. He believed it would be beneficial to the United States. It would not only be agreeing to an opinion which was contrary to the sentiments of gentlemen, but it would be passing a censure on the other branches of Government. Gentlemen were not required to say it was a good Treaty, and he hoped no one would be forced to say it was a bad one.

[The Speaker informed the House that it was then twelve o'clock, and as they had yesterday ordered that there should be a call of the House to-day at that hour, he should direct the Clerk to make the call. It was accordingly done. Messrs. Brent, Harper, and Patton were absent. The two former came to the House soon after the call, and, on making apologies, were excused. Mr. Patton was indisposed.]

Mr. Gregg said he should vote for the resolution in its present state. He did so, not because he thought the Treaty a good one, but because he believed the interest of the United States would be promoted by making the necessary appropriations, and because he was apprehensive worse consequences might arise from defeating it than from carrying it into effect.

Mr. Moore considered himself as called upon to choose between two evils. He considered the Treaty to be bad. On the other hand, he was apprehensive that evils might arise, if it was not carried into effect, out of the control of that House. He had resolved not to vote for the resolution on the table; but he felt unwilling to take upon himself the responsibility of rejecting the Treaty, which had been sanctioned by the President and Senate. In deciding upon the amendment proposed, he wished the sense of the House to be taken; and if he considered that a single individual would be influenced to vote against the resolution who would otherwise have voted for it, he should wish them to be separated. It was his opinion the Treaty was a bad one, and he believed it was the opinion of a decided majority of that House. He wished the resolution to be so amended that the Treaty might go into effect by a considerable majority, as it would tend to lessen the irritation which had been raised respecting it.

Mr. Dearborn said, in offering the amendment which he had proposed, he had no intention of taking any thing like an unfair advantage, or of producing what might be thought uncandid or unfair. His own sentiments relative to the Treaty were such as would prevent his consenting to do any thing to carry it into effect, unless with such a provision as he had brought forward. It appeared to him of such a nature, that he was not sure that he could bring his mind to vote to carry it into effect at all. He had supposed there could be nothing improper in taking the opinion of the House relative to the thing itself. If it might be presumed that there were but few gentlemen in that House who thought the Treaty a good one, he, indeed, thought there were none of that opinion, until then, though some gentlemen had praised it in their speeches, but which he had merely considered as adding weight to their arguments, he believed such an amendment was desirable.

As he, therefore, took it for granted that a considerable majority of the House were of the same opinion with himself, he saw no impropriety in having that opinion expressed. The propositions would not interfere with any bill which might be brought in, and gentlemen would have the discretion to vote for it or not. If a majority of the House thought differently from him, and chose to negative the amendment, he should be satisfied. Until he heard something further on the business, to convince him of the impropriety of doing so, he should wish to see a decision of the House upon the proposition as he had offered it.

Mr. Harper said he was of the number who thought the measure of passing the resolution on the table a very expedient one; but whilst this was his opinion, he knew there were many, both within and without their walls, of a different opinion. He had no objection to gentlemen's expressing their opinions, but he wished also to be at liberty to express his. He should, therefore, propose that the mover should form his resolution as a preamble. This would answer the purpose of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Moore.)

He said, when it was so formed, every one would have an opportunity of voting for it, and, if negatived, the resolution would stand as before. He hoped, therefore, the proposal would be agreed to.

Mr. Dearborn said he considered his motion in the nature of a preamble; and he had no objection to any alteration that would make it more properly so.

Mr. Kittera appealed to the candor of the gentleman who brought forward the amendment, with respect to the propriety of making his proposition a distinct one. He thought it would be extremely improper to pass a resolution which would say, "We pass this law, though we believe it to be a very bad one." He thought it also directly charging another branch of the Government with improper conduct.

Mr. Nicholas had no objection to the amendment being inserted by way of preamble. He urged the propriety of the opinions of members being fairly taken on this important business.

Mr. Gregg wished to offer an amendment, as a substitute to that before the committee. It was, in substance, as follows: "Resolved, That under a consideration of existing circumstances, without reference to the merits or demerits of the Treaty, and in confidence that measures will be taken by the Executive to maintain our neutral rights, it is expedient," &c.

This was declared out of order until the amendment was decided on.

Mr. Venable had no objection to the propositions being taken separately, as gentlemen would be then left at liberty to vote as they pleased. He conceived there were gentlemen who would vote for the proposition with the amendment, who would not vote for it without it. He did not know that any amendment would reconcile the resolution to him; for, though he should vote for the amendment, he would not bind himself to vote for carrying into effect the Treaty.

Mr. Murray said he had not spoken on the subject before. He was stating that the President was armed only with reason; he was stripped of all the symbols of power, and if the Treaty before them was carried into effect, with such a clog as the amendment proposed, he would be debilitated indeed. Their Executive had, in his opinion, done great things, and what would have covered any European Minister with untarnished laurels, by means of reason and policy; for, however wickedly courts act, they calculate upon the force of the powers with whom they treat. When a Minister goes to negotiate, they inquire into the naval and military force of his country, their appropriations for the army and navy, &c., &c. The Envoy of the United States would be a blank upon such an occasion. What was their interest, then? It was to give energy to their Government. Should they then pass the law in such a manner as almost to warrant the people in resisting it? The only thing which remained for them to do, was, not only to carry the Treaty into effect, but to carry it into effect with good faith. The object was not merely the posts—it was a conciliation of the differences long existing between the two nations; and it was their duty to execute it so as to produce the greatest advantage; whereas, if they were to agree to the amendment proposed, so covered with odium, it would weaken the power of the Executive, already too feeble.

Mr. S. Smith said he had never seen any cause of gloom. He never doubted that the members of that House would come to right conclusions. They did right yesterday, and he was not afraid of their doing wrong to-day. In their decision yesterday, the Chairman had doubts. He decided in favor of the resolution, in hopes of its undergoing some modification—that modification was now brought forward. It did not entirely please him; but he thought it might be so amended as to please every one. He moved that the words "and may prove injurious to the United States," be struck out. Consented to.

Mr. Muhlenberg said, when he gave his vote yesterday, he did it in the hope of a modification of the resolution taking place in the House. A modification was now brought forward, and he was ready to vote for some such modification. Whilst he made this declaration, he must add, that he was willing also to vote for the original resolution. He wished the sense of the House to be taken upon the two propositions separately.

Mr. Dearborn consented to the propositions being taken separately.

Mr. S. Smith moved to strike out the word "highly," so as to read objectionable, instead of "highly objectionable."

The sense of the House was taken, when there were 48 for the striking out, and 48 against it. The Speaker gave his vote in the affirmative.

Mr. Kitchell said, he should vote against the proposition now brought forward, because he thought it wrong to hold up an idea which would have a tendency to weaken the Government. He looked upon it as injurious. The people would judge upon the Treaty from the instrument itself, and what had been said of it. They ought never to alarm the people unnecessarily. It was not from any fear of going to war, or any other apprehension but what he had mentioned, which caused this opposition in him.

Mr. Gallatin said, if the propositions could be divided, no gentleman could reasonably object to the sense of the House being taken upon them.

Mr. Parker said, he had not yet spoken upon this business. He would now say, he disapproved of the amendment, and should not vote for it. He thought the Treaty a bad one, and would not agree to vote for it by means of any modification.

Mr. Heister said, he should vote for the amendment, because, if the Treaty went into operation, he should wish the reasons which induced the House to agree to it to appear, on the Journals. When, however, the resolution for carrying the Treaty into effect was put, he should vote against it.

The motion was then put on the preamble, and decided in the negative, as follows: yeas, 49, nays 50:

Yeas.—Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Lemuel Benton, Thomas Blount, Richard Brent, Dempsey Burges, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, John Clopton, Isaac Coles, Henry Dearborn, Samuel Earle, Jesse Franklin, Albert Gallatin, William B. Giles, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, William Barry Grove, Wade Hampton, Carter B. Harrison, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, Daniel Heister, James Holland, George Jackson, Edward Livingston, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, John Milledge, Andrew Moore, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, Francis Preston, Robert Rutherford, Israel Smith, John Swanwick, Absalom Tatom, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Abraham Venable, and Richard Winn.

Nays.—Fisher Ames, Benjamin Bourne, Theophilus Bradbury, Nathan Bryan, Daniel Buck, Thomas Claiborne, Joshua Coit, Wm. Cooper, Jeremiah Crabb, George Dent, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Benjamin Goodhue, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, George Hancock, Robert Goodloe Harper, Thomas Hartley, John Heath, Thomas Henderson, James Hillhouse, William Hindman, Aaron Kitchell, John Wilkes Kittera, George Leonard, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, William Vans Murray, Josiah Parker, John Read, John Richards, Theodore Sedgwick, Samuel Sitgreaves, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, Samuel Smith, William Smith, Thomas Sprigg, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, Uriah Tracy, John E. Van Allen, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.

From this list it appears that the question was lost by one vote. The clerk, however, through mistake, reported the votes to be equal, viz: 49 for and 49 against the question, and the Speaker gave his vote in the negative, but the above was afterwards found to be the true statement.

Mr. W. Smith was glad the motion was negatived. He did not wish either blame or praise to be cast upon the Treaty by the resolution passed to carry it into effect. He would, therefore, move to add the following words to the original resolution: "Without reference to the merits of the Treaty."

Mr. Giles opposed this amendment. He said, it would be an indirect mode of passing a censure upon the House for having undertaken to judge of the merits of the Treaty. He did not know whether it struck the gentleman in the same way, but he would agree it was improper to pass a censure upon the House. He hoped, therefore, the motion would either be withdrawn or voted against.

The motion was withdrawn.

Mr. Winn said, as it was his opinion, and the opinion of the generality of his constituents, that the Treaty was a bad one, he should vote against it.

The question was then taken by yeas and nays, and determined in the affirmative—yeas 51, nays 48, as follows:

Yeas.—Fisher Ames, Theodorus Bailey, Benjamin Bourne, Theophilus Bradbury, Daniel Buck, Gabriel Christie, Joshua Coit, William Cooper, Jeremiah Crabb, George Dent, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Benjamin Goodhue, Chauncey Goodrich, Andrew Gregg, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, George Hancock, Robert Goodloe Harper, Thomas Hartley, Thomas Henderson, James Hillhouse, William Hindman, Aaron Kitchell, John Wilkes Kittera, George Leonard, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, Wm. Vans Murray, John Read, John Richards, Theodore Sedgwick, Samuel Sitgreaves, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, Samuel Smith, William Smith, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, Uriah Tracy, John E. Van Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.

Nays.—Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Lemuel Benton, Thomas Blount, Richard Brent, Nathan Bryan, Dempsey Burges, Samuel J. Cabell, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, Isaac Coles, Henry Dearborn, Samuel Earle, Jesse Franklin, Albert Gallatin, William B. Giles, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, Wade Hampton, Carter B. Harrison, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, John Heath, Daniel Heister, James Holland, George Jackson, Edward Livingston, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, John Milledge, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, Josiah Parker, Francis Preston, Robert Rutherford, Israel Smith, Thomas Sprigg, John Swanwick, Absalom Tatom, Joseph B. Varnum, Abraham Venable, and Richard Winn.

Ordered, That a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant to the said resolution, and that Mr. Hillhouse, Mr. Sedgwick, and Mr. Gallatin, do prepare and bring in the same.

[Recapitulation.

For declaring the Treaty highly objectionable 48

Against this declaration 48

The Speaker decided in the negative.

For declaring the Treaty objectionable 49

Against the declaration; some because they did not consider it objectionable; others because they feared making the declaration would be injurious, and others because, so opposed to the Treaty, as to object to all compromise 49

The Speaker decided in the negative.

For carrying into effect the Treaty; some because a good one, others because best to execute it under existing circumstances 51

Against carrying it into effect, because bad in itself, and notwithstanding existing circumstances 48

Absent on this question—Messrs. Sherburne and Freeman, on leave; Mr. Duvall, resigned; Mr. Patton, by illness; Mr. Findlay, accidentally.][78]

Friday, May 6.

Admission of Tennessee.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the report of the committee to whom was referred the Message of the President, relative to the Territory of the United States south of the river Ohio.

Mr. Rutherford hoped the committee would concur in the report. He had no idea of confining that Territory to the strict legal line. He did not wish to cavil with this brave, generous people. He would have them taken out of leading-strings, as they were now able to stand alone; it was time to take them by the hand, and to say, we are glad to see you, stand on your own feet. We should not, he said, be too nice about their turning out their toes, or other trifles; they will soon march lustily along. They had complied with every requisite for becoming a State of the Union—they wished to form an additional star in the political hemisphere of the United States—they have erected a State Government, and wish to come into the Union, and to resist their claim would be out of character. He hoped it would be agreed to.

Mr. Dayton said, he disapproved of the report of the committee, and of the terms in which the resolution they had recommended for the adoption of the House was expressed. He could never give his assent to any proposition which expressly or even impliedly admitted that the people inhabiting either of the Territories of the United States could, at their own mere will and pleasure, and without the declared consent of Congress, erect themselves into a separate and independent State. Yet this seemed to be the spirit of the report under consideration, and what was still worse, it went, as he understood, to renounce any right in Congress even to deliberate whether they should become a member of the Union. He was by no means desirous of opposing the wishes of this valuable and enterprising people who inhabit the South-western Territory, nor of unnecessarily impeding the efforts they were making to throw off the Territorial jurisdiction, and establish a system of Government for themselves; but being aware that the steps now about to be taken would be regarded and pursued hereafter as a precedent, he conceived it important that they should, in this first instance of the sort that had presented itself, proceed circumspectly and rightly. He was willing to pass a law in the present session which should at the same time provide for erecting and forming them into a State, and for admitting them as such into the Union. They should thereby effectually promote the views of the people of Tennessee, in a mode which, by avoiding the violation of any just political principle, would entirely reconciled and render consistent the interest of that district of country and of the several United States.

Mr. D. acknowledged that he should have been much better satisfied if he had found all the people comprehended within the Territorial line petitioning for this measure, and if he had seen ingrafted in their constitution the conditions and restrictions contained in the ordinance upon which they found the right they were claiming; but he knew that unanimity was in no instance to be expected amongst a people so numerous and scattered; and he was convinced that they were bound by the conditions and limitations he alluded to, without an acknowledgment and repetition of them in their new charter.

Mr. Dearborn said, as to the census relative to representation, it appeared doubtful, that, because that Territory had now 66,000 inhabitants, they were entitled to two Representatives, as the other States of the Union were represented according to the number of inhabitants they contained in the year 1790. It might be doubtful whether they should be entitled to an advantage which was not allowed to other States. It had been his opinion (and he saw no reasons to change) that if this Territory was admitted into the Union, it was not entitled to more than one Representative; and therefore it was not necessary to make another census. As to passing a previous law recognizing the Territory as a State before it was admitted into the Union, he did not think it necessary. They say they are now a State, and surely Congress would not say to them, You shall not be a State, or dictate to them what sort of a constitution they shall have, provided it be a Republican. The method taken for ascertaining their number of inhabitants, he thought, could not be objected to. He saw no reason to prevent them from accepting the Territory as a State of the Union: what number of Representatives they were entitled to, would turn upon another point.

Mr. Blount said the House should have determined upon this question long since, as the government of Tennessee had a month ago gone into operation. The people there had chosen not only their State officers, but their Senators, and perhaps their Representatives, to come to Congress. The Governor had, from time to time, informed the President of the United States of every step taken towards the proposed change of government. In July, he sent him a copy of the law directing the census to be taken; in November, when the census was completed, he sent him a copy of it, and a copy of his Proclamation requiring the people to elect members of Convention for the purpose of forming a constitution and State Government; and on the 19th of February he sent him a copy of the constitution, with notice that on the 28th of March, when the General Assembly of the State of Tennessee would meet to act on the constitution, the temporary government would cease; and this last information was, to his knowledge, received on the 28th of February—forty days before it was communicated by the President to Congress, and eleven days after it must have been known to the Secretary of State, if not to the President, that the State Government had gone into operation.

What would be the consequence, said Mr. B., of refusing at this time, and under these circumstances, to receive this State into the Union? Did gentlemen wish to re-establish a temporary Territorial Government there? If they did, he believed their wish would not easily be accomplished; for the people there believed, that in changing their government, they only exercised a right which had been secured to them by a sacred compact; and under that belief, they will be disposed to defend it. That right was, in his opinion, recognized by the Government of the United States, when Mr. White was permitted to take his seat in that House as the Representative of the Territory; and from that circumstance they had reason to expect that 67,000 inhabitants would have entitled them, without scruple, to be a member of the Union. If the census was not a just one, or if there had been any fraud used in taking it, an impeachment would lie against the Governor, who, upon his responsibility as an officer of the United States, sanctioned the law for taking it, and acted under it after it was taken.

Mr. W. Lyman said the subject presented itself in two points of view—as it related to the Territory being admitted as a State into the Union, or as giving them a right to send members to Congress. In his opinion, according to the ordinance of Congress, they had a clear right to be admitted as a State into the Union; for it was there said, that when they had 60,000 inhabitants, they should be entitled. No mode is pointed out how it shall be ascertained; but the Governor being expressly mentioned in the case where 5,000 inhabitants were to entitle them to a temporary Government, he thought there could be no doubt but the same way was to be observed with respect to their qualification for becoming one of the States of the Union. This fact, he said, came fully ascertained, and being so, there could be no doubt the right was clear. It was a right, indeed, which they could not deny, and, as a matter of expediency, it was not worth while to oppose it. He saw no reason why they should call in question the proceedings or the purity of the government of that Territory, so as to doubt their return.

Mr. Dayton said that he preferred the formation of the South-western Territory into one State, to a division of it into two, and he therefore did not agree with those gentlemen who had advocated the latter idea. The people had requested to be united into one State, and he was for complying with their request, and for taking them at their word, rather than by subdividing to give them a double representation in the Senate.

Mr. Sedgwick concurred in opinion with the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Dayton); and if any gentleman understood him to say that he did not wish the State of Tennessee to be admitted into the Union, it must have been an error, for he had no such desire. But he was still persuaded that it was never intended that that Territory should have the power of settling the way by which they were to become one of the independent States.

What had been said by a gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison) of their being in a degraded situation, because controlled by laws which were made by persons independent of them, would not only apply to 60,000, but to six persons. The question was whether they were in a situation in which they could claim to be a State? If they were, they ought to be admitted; if not, they ought not to be admitted. If the idea of the gentleman from New Jersey was adopted, they might be admitted at an early period. He had no idea of charging Governor Blount with improper conduct: he was entitled to his respect. If it was intended that these people should decide upon their own situation, they ought to do it in the way observed in cases directed by the constitution. Mr. S. proposed two resolutions—one for laying out territory into a State or States, and another for directing a census of the inhabitants to be taken.

It appeared to him that this was the way in which the subject should be considered: they should determine whether the Territory should be in one or two States, and before Representatives were sent to Congress, a census would be taken by authority of Congress. Words could not, he thought, have rendered more explicit the intention of the contracting parties than the words of the compact; and all this might be done in time for Representatives to be sent to the next session of Congress.

Mr. Macon said the chief differences in the opinions of gentlemen arose upon a subject which was not before the committee, viz: the number of Representatives to which this new State was entitled in that House. The question before the committee was on admitting the Territory to be a State of the Union. There appeared to him only two things as necessary to be inquired into: First, Was the new Government Republican? It appeared to him to be so. And, secondly, Were there 60,000 inhabitants in the Territory? It appeared to him there were; and, if so, their admission as a State should not be considered as a gift, but as a right. Their temporary government (by whose authority the late census was taken) had not only a Governor appointed by the Executive of the General Government, but also a Legislative Council. To admit this Territory as a member of the Union, appeared to him as a matter of course. It also seemed as if the Executive was of that opinion. The President, having been duly informed from time to time with the proceedings of that Territory towards being admitted into the Union, if he had thought they had been doing wrong, he would have set them right. It was also his opinion, that if they had passed a law directing a census to be taken, it would have been done exactly in the way the present had been taken. He thought the subject of navigation was settled by the Constitution of the United States; the waters in that country would be under the same regulations with all other waters in the Union, nor did he think there was any thing in the Constitution of Tennessee which had a contrary tendency. It appeared clearly to him that every thing had been fairly done, and that they had a right to claim an admission as a member of the Union.

Mr. Baldwin said, had he belonged to the Territory south of the Ohio, he should probably have been for pursuing a different mode of conducting this business, from that which it seems they have thought proper to adopt. He should have thought it desirable, a year or two ago, to have obtained from Congress an act pointing out the mode of taking the census, and ascertaining the events on which they were entitled to become a State. He said Congress ought also, of their own accord, to have taken up that subject, and made those provisions, though not requested by the Territory; and it had always been with surprise he had observed that the first act for forming that Territory did not contain those provisions. He thought, as to the principle in this case there could be no doubt. Whenever the event happened of their having 60,000 inhabitants, as pointed out by law, their right to be a State took place. It was to depend entirely on that contingency; when that was proved to have taken place, they could not be debarred. There having been no mode previously pointed out for ascertaining this fact, only makes it more difficult for the Territory and for Congress to be satisfied of the fact of their actually having so many inhabitants, but does not affect their right. He thought it best for the House to proceed to examine their census and the evidence which they had thought proper to collect and bring forward in their own way. He was ready to allow that, for himself, he should examine it more scrupulously than he should have done, had it been taken under a law of Congress. But he had not understood many objections had yet been made to it. Perhaps, on further examination, it will be found fully satisfactory; if so, they must be admitted to be a State as a matter of right. They might have waited longer, and attempted to have formed two States; they have made their election of the other alternative. He thought it wise for Congress to avail itself of this opportunity of holding them to what they have chosen, and thus prevent future difficulties and misunderstandings.

Mr. W. Smith said he was glad to find the observations which he made yesterday in some measure sanctioned to-day. He then recapitulated his leading arguments. It was said yesterday by a gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Madison,) that whilst the people of the Territory remained in their colonial situation, they were in a state of degradation; but, he would ask, at whose request they became so? Look at their request in the year 1790, as expressed in the cession act. And yet, in the course of a few years, without consulting Congress, in consequence of a census taken by their own authority, they proceed to erect themselves into a State, create a new government, and claim to be admitted into the Union as matter of right. Under their former government their member was admitted to that House; yet, whilst he holds his seat under that government, they have appointed other members to represent them under their new Government. The most regular way would certainly have been to have transmitted their request to Congress to be formed into a State. Congress would then have passed a law for taking a census, have fixed when the Territorial system should cease and the State Government commence.

He thought the business was of considerable consequence, and he was sorry it was taken up in so thin a House. There would certainly arise in a few years other new States in the Western country yet uninhabited, which might occasion considerable difficulties. They might make a census and say they had 60,000 inhabitants, when they had not half that number. He did not wish to keep the inhabitants of the South-western Territory out of the Union, but he wished them to be admitted in a constitutional mode.

Mr. Gallatin was of opinion that the people of the South-western Territory became ipso facto a State the moment they amounted to 60,000 free inhabitants, and that it became the duty of Congress, as part of the original compact, to recognize them as such, and to admit them into the Union, whenever they had satisfactory proof of the fact.

It was objected that, previous to the proof of that fact being given, it was necessary that Congress should have laid out and formed that Territory into one or more States, and that the proof of their number should have been given under direction and by order of Congress, the people not being competent to give the proof themselves.

Both those objections suppose a construction of the original compact between the people of that Territory and the United States, (of the act of cession of North Carolina, and of the ordinance of Congress of 1787,) which was inadmissible; for it rendered that compact binding upon one party and not upon the other. It is supposed that that ordinance, whose object it was to establish the principles of a free government, and to ascertain a certainty of admission into the Union, had declared that the time when those people were to enjoy that government, and were to be admitted as a member of the Union, depended not on the contingency of their having 60,000 free inhabitants, but on certain previous acts of Congress—in other words, on the sole will of Congress. Either you must acknowledge that their admission depends solely on the condition of the compact being fulfilled, to wit: their having the number required; or you declare that it rests upon another act, which may be done or refused by the other party; that Congress have the power, by neglecting to lay them out into one or more States, or by refusing to pass a law to take a census, to keep them for ever in their colonial state. Nor did the strictest interpretation of that contract justify the construction given by the gentleman from South Carolina; for the only meaning that could consistently be given to the words, "lay out and form into one or more States," was, that Congress had power to fix the boundaries of the Territory or Territories that were to become a State or States. They could have declared that that Territory should be one or two States; but if they had neglected to do it, their omission could not be plead against the inhabitants of Tennessee. The power given by that clause to Congress was merely to fix boundaries, and to choose whether there should be more than one State; but if they had not made use of that power, there must be one State, and its boundaries were fixed by the act of cession, so that nothing remained now for Congress to operate upon.

Mr. Blount said, there was an absolute necessity for the clause which the gentleman last up objected to. Persons were daily coming to that Territory in great numbers. If the census had been required to be taken in one day all the people who had come into the Territory, with the intention to reside permanently there, could by no means have been numbered. It was not intended to give the officers power to take persons in more places than one, nor did he believe it had been done. He undertook to explain yesterday the reason why so long a time was given, but he seemed not to have been understood, which was, the difficulties attending the passage of the wilderness.

The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Smith) had said, that his arguments of yesterday had been to-day admitted. If the gentleman had supposed that he had admitted them, he was mistaken. That he might not continue under the mistake, he would inform him, that what he had called arguments, were, in his opinion, mere quibbles, such as could only have been expected from a County Court lawyer, at the bar of a County Court.

Mr. Coit said, that as he had not heard it suggested from any quarter that it would be expedient to divide the Territory into two States, he did not think it important to inquire into the powers of Congress in that respect. It is declared by the ordinance for the government of the Territory, that when there should be sixty thousand inhabitants in any one of the States there they should be admitted into the Union. If, then, it is not in contemplation to divide the Territory into two States, he considered that the right to be admitted was complete as soon as there was the requisite number within the whole Territory. But it appeared to him, that on examining the census and the law under which it was taken, they could not be considered as furnishing proof that there was that number there. He did not pretend to say that any fraud had been committed in the execution of the law, but the law itself was wholly defective. The same man might have been counted in several counties, nay, in every county in the Territory, and that without any fraud, but in strict compliance with the law; two months having been allowed for taking the enumeration, and it being enjoined on the sheriffs of the several counties to include in their enumeration all persons within their respective districts within that period.

The gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Blount) seemed to imagine that it would have been impracticable to have followed a mode similar to the one pointed out in the enumeration law of the United States, but he could not see the reason. [He read the law.]

Mr. Sitgreaves said, he felt every disposition favorable to meet the wishes of the people of the South-western Territory, and for a reason which had been given, viz: that, as they were our fellow-citizens, it was desirable they should equally participate with us in all the advantages of the General Government, and suffer no longer than was necessary the comparative humiliation of a Colonial or Territorial administration; but, from obvious considerations, he thought it highly important that they should be admitted to the enjoyment of these advantages only in conformity with the promise made to them, and on the terms of the compact entered into jointly by the United States and by them. Two constructions of this compact had been contended for; one, that so soon as sixty thousand free inhabitants should be collected within the Territory, they should be entitled to a place in the Union, as an independent State; the other, that Congress should first lay off the Territory into one or more States, according to a just discretion, defining the same by bounds and limits; and that the admission of such States thus defined, should take place as their population respectively amounted to the number of free inhabitants mentioned; that is, that the sixty thousand inhabitants could not claim admission into the Union, unless their number was comprised within a State whose Territorial limits had been previously ascertained by an act of the United States. He inclined to this latter construction, because it was conformable to the letter, and, as he understood it, to the spirit of the instrument. By the act of cession of the State of North Carolina, accepted by Congress, it is provided that the ceded territory should be laid off into one or more States, and that the people of the Territory should be entitled to all the privileges secured to the inhabitants of the Territory north-west of the Ohio, by the ordinance of 1787. The extent of their privileges, therefore, is to be determined by this ordinance, which may be called their charter. They have no other or greater privileges than the inhabitants of the North-western Territory; and it cannot be pretended that these would be entitled to admission into the Union as one State, so soon as their whole number shall amount to sixty thousand, because the ordinance itself divides that country into three separate and distinct States, each of which must contain sixty thousand free inhabitants before it can claim to be received. The actual circumstances and situation of the South-western Territory evinced the reasonableness and propriety of the construction; it is composed of two settlements, the Hoston and the Mero districts, separated from each other by the Cumberland Mountains and a wilderness of two hundred miles in width, which has always been inhabited by the Indians, and the soil and jurisdiction of which have been actually ceded to them by the United States, by late Treaties; and by an examination of the documents on the table it would appear, that when, agreeably to the act of the Territorial Legislature, the officers who took the census put to the people of the Territory the question whether they were desirous of admission into the Union; the inhabitants of the Western or Mero district almost universally answered in the negative. He would not undertake positively to pronounce on the inexpediency of forming the whole country into one State; but under the circumstances which he had stated, and until they should be satisfactorily explained to his mind, it did appear to him that the interest and the wishes of that people required a division of the Territory. It looked somewhat absurd to connect under one permanent Government, people separated from each other by natural barriers, by a distance of two hundred miles, and by a foreign jurisdiction. They had been told, by gentlemen who knew the fact, that during the period of Indian hostility, the people emigrating to the Mero district were obliged to stop five or six weeks at the eastern boundary of the wilderness, until they could collect in companies or caravans of sufficient number and force to pass in safety; the time of hostility may again return, and even a state of peace with Indians is not a state of such tranquillity or security as to preclude the necessity of caution and vigilance on the frontiers. The people of the Western district seem sensible of the inconvenience of an arrangement so unnatural as the one proposed, and so far as their wishes can be collected from the documents before the committee, they desire as yet to preserve their connection with us in its present mode, and to remain under the Territorial Government.

Mr. Macon said, he should be as unwilling to agree to the doctrine of the gentleman from New Jersey, (Mr. Dayton,) as he was unwilling to agree to his. As to the people of this Territory attaching themselves to any other nation, he should not have thought it could have been suggested. There was no more likelihood of their going over to any other government than there was of any other State doing the same thing.

Mr. Gallatin said, how the resolution on the table, or the doctrine he had asserted, supported the idea that that Territory would have a right to separate from the Union, he could not see, and he should be glad to be informed. So far from it, his opinion was that if they were a State, they were at the same time a member of the Union; that they could not exist as a State without being one of the United States. The only difference of opinion was whether an act of Congress was necessary previous to their being recognized as such; and if any doctrine could lead to the conclusion of the Speaker, it was that of those gentlemen who thought that Congress must form them into a State, several months before they were admitted into the Union. In that intermediary situation, whilst declared a State and not one of the United States, they might, perhaps, claim, as an independent State, a right to reject an admission in the Union. But those consequences could only flow from the doctrine he was combating; the principle he was supporting was that no previous act was necessary, that there could not be two acts upon the subject; but that one and the same act must recognize them as a State and admit them in the Union.

Mr. Blount hoped the original resolution would not be rejected for the sake of the gentleman from New Jersey. He did not wish to give up the right to which these people were entitled; though perhaps the law might not pass the Senate.

Mr. Harper objected to the mention of the Senate, as to what was likely to be done there. He hoped they should adopt the resolution of the gentleman from New Jersey.

The question was then taken on the original resolution reported by the select committee, and carried by 41 to 35.

The committee rose and the House took up the consideration, when Mr. Kitchell proposed a resolution in the place of that which had been agreed to in a Committee of the Whole, as he thought some law should be passed by Congress recognizing the Territory as a State, before they were admitted into the Union. It was negatived; and the original resolution was agreed to by 43 to 30, as follows:

Yeas.—Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Lemuel Benton, Thomas Blount, Richard Brent, Nathan Bryan, Dempsey Burges, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, Jeremiah Crabb, William Findlay, Jesse Franklin, Albert Gallatin, William B. Giles, James Gillespie, Andrew Gregg, Wade Hampton, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Jonathan N. Havens, Daniel Heister, James Holland, George Jackson, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, Francis Preston, John Read, Robert Rutherford, Israel Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., Thomas Sprigg, Absalom Tatom, Philip Van Cortlandt, and Abraham Venable.

Nays.—Benjamin Bourne, Theophilus Bradbury, Gabriel Christie, Joshua Coit, George Dent, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, Thomas Hartley, Thomas Henderson, James Hillhouse, William Hindman, Aaron Kitchell, George Leonard, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, Theodore Sedgwick, Samuel Sitgreaves, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, William Smith, George Thatcher, Uriah Tracy, John E. Van Allen, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.

Saturday, May 21.

Military Establishment.

The amendments of the Senate to the bill fixing the Military Establishment were read. They went to the retaining the whole number of light dragoons and the Major General, and directing that men should be enlisted for five instead of three years. The amendment respecting the dragoons being under consideration——

Mr. Baldwin informed the House that the amount of the amendments of the Senate was this, to keep up 320 dragoons instead of 52, and to retain the Major General. It appeared to him that the House, having determined upon these subjects already, would be at no loss to form an opinion upon these amendments.

Mr. Williams hoped that the amendment from the Senate would not be agreed to. This House had taken great pains to mature the bill, and he was of opinion that the number of troops agreed to was sufficient for a peace establishment. No gentleman had observed to the contrary; any addition would not only be an augmentation to the great expenses already accrued by the late war, but be a mean of retaining in the army useful citizens, who would be otherwise employed in pursuits of much more benefit to the United States.

Mr. W. Lyman hoped the amendment would be disagreed to.

Mr. S. Smith said, the Senate seemed to contemplate these light dragoons, on account of the officers, who were to do duty on horse or foot, as necessity required. From this idea, he would suggest the propriety of agreeing to the amendment.

Mr. Kittera said, the army would be placed so widely from each other, that the horse would prove very useful.

Mr. Giles had no idea of keeping up the horse for the sake of the officers.

Mr. Gilbert was in favor of retaining the whole number of horses.

On motion of Mr. Williams, the yeas and nays were taken, and the amendment was negatived, 58 to 22.

The consideration of the propriety of retaining the Major General was next taken up.

Mr. Nicholas could not conceive any use for generals. He believed if the Senate had struck out the General they sent them, the amendment would have been a good one.

Mr. Giles hoped they should not agree to the amendment. It would be a commencement of sinecures in the Military Department. There would be generals without men to command. He believed the bill, as sent from that House, contained its full proportion of officers.

Mr. S. Smith was in favor of the amendment. He said the expense would be no great things, and the present Major General would be very necessary in taking possession of the posts. Perhaps, at this time, it was essential to keep this man in command, as, if he were discharged, it might create a derangement in our Army which might be fatal. The command of three thousand men, it was true, was too trifling for a Major General. But, perhaps, as this General had been the victorious means of procuring us peace with the Indians, immediately to discharge him would appear like ingratitude, if not injustice.

Mr. Rutherford concurred in opinion with the gentleman last up.

Mr. W. Lyman said, they were not now called upon to reward the services of Major General Wayne, but to provide proper officers for their Army. If the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. S. Smith) were to bring forward a measure of that kind, they should know how to decide upon it. Nor did he think the argument for making the office of a Major General, because the posts were to be received, had much weight. Any other officer would receive them as well as a Major General.

Mr. Giles said, he had no personal objections to the present commander of our Army; but he considered the present proposition such a breach of principle as he could not agree to. It was the making of an office for a man; as the gentleman from Maryland seemed to think the taking possession of the posts the principal business to be performed by him. If the services of this gentleman were necessary on that occasion, he would much rather pass a bill to make him a commissioner for that purpose. All the arguments in favor of a Major General were in favor of the man, and not of the propriety of the office.

Mr. Murray said, the gentleman last up must know that the gentleman who had so successfully commanded our Western Army, was now in the service of the United States, yet he would insinuate that there was an intention of creating a new office. There was no disposition in those who wished to retain this meritorious man in service to create new offices. They were now about to make a regular Military Establishment; heretofore it had rather been a nominal one. There had been hitherto a Major General at the head of our corps, and he thought it would be proper to continue the command. There appeared to him a great deal of danger from the instability of their proceedings, an instability often charged upon a Government like ours. He would not attribute this to any other motive than such as were too apt to enter into large deliberative bodies. Was it right that when a man had led our armies to victory, and returned, that he should be immediately stripped of his commission? He thought not. It was said that this was done, because the Army was reduced; but he believed it was now as large as when General Wayne obtained his victory by it, for it was not then more than three thousand men; and yet, because they wished to retain this man in the service of the United States, they were told that they were creating new offices for which there was no necessity.

Mr. Nicholas said, with respect to the instability of their measures, he was ready to take his own share of it as well as that of the gentleman last up, for he never found him vary from one point; he was always desirous to keep up every office which had been once established. Mr. N. thought the conduct of gentlemen extraordinary. At one time they were to make our Establishment as large as possible, and when more favorable circumstances appeared, they were not to reduce it. Where were the benefits of peace, if they were still to keep up our War Establishments? Gentlemen tell you that the Army would be as large now as before the reduction, yet the same gentlemen were opposed to its being reduced to the number now contemplated. This appeared something like inconsistency. Mr. N. said, if they did not seize every favorable opportunity of lessening the expenses of Government, he believed their constituents would have good reason to complain of their want of attention to their duty.

Mr. Macon said, they ought to legislate on this subject as if there were no Army in existence. They had no permanent Establishment, as their men were discharged at the end of every three years. He believed our present commander was a very respectable officer, but he could not vote for a Major General in the Establishment, which he thought unnecessary, because he thought him a deserving man.

Mr. Bourne believed it was not necessary to have any appropriate number of men for a Major General to command. It had often been thought that a Major General was necessary. He believed they had thought so on former occasions. If any necessity should arise for the militia to be called out to aid the Army, such an officer would be highly necessary. He did not think it would be true economy to reject him.

Mr. Gallatin said it was not pleasing to give a vote which was in some degree of a personal nature like the present. He was unacquainted with the gentleman who now held the office of Major General in our Army, and, therefore, was under no personal influence, and his opinion on the subject was formed upon the information of those in whose judgment on military affairs, he must necessarily confide, as it was a subject he did not understand. It was supposed that a Major General was necessary for a War Establishment, but not for a Peace Establishment. He drew this conclusion from that grade ceasing with the war in 1783, and being again introduced in 1791, when the Indian war had commenced, and he understood it was more connected with the nature of the service than the number of men. The gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Smith) said that the nature of the service of this summer, required the service of General Wayne; but as the act they were about to pass would not take place till the 31st of October, as it was the opinion of all gentlemen of military knowledge, that there was no necessity for retaining a Major General in our reduced Army Establishment after the posts had been taken possession of, and as the whole summer appeared sufficient for that service, he would vote against the amendment.

Mr. Hartley thought it best to have a Major General. The expense was but small, and in case of the militia being called out (as was mentioned by the gentleman from Rhode Island) a Major General would be necessary; besides, to reject him, would have the appearance of forcing this man out of office in an ungenerous manner.

On motion of Mr. Bailey, the yeas and nays were then taken, and the Senate's amendment was lost, 49 to 34.

Monday, May 23.

Widow of General Greene.

The House went into Committee of the Whole on the petition of Catharine Greene, widow of the late General Greene, for indemnity against the demands of Harris and Blachford, of London, merchants, on account of a certain bond which had been given to them by General Greene, as was said on account of the United States. The following was the report of the Committee of Claims:

"That this petitioner prays for indemnity against the demands of Messrs. Harris and Blachford, merchants, who have obtained a judgment against the estate of the late General Greene, for a large sum, in consequence of his being security to the said Harris and Blachford, for the debt of John Banks & Co., which debt, she states, was incurred for, and in behalf of the United States; and that General Greene gave security for no other purpose than to forward the interests of the public.

"On a strict investigation of this claim, the committee find, that in the fall of 1782, General Greene was authorized by the Department of War to obtain supplies of clothing for the Southern Army, then under his command; and, not long after, he contracted with John Banks, a partner in the house of Hunter, Banks & Co., for such supplies.

"In February, 1783, General Greene, under authority of the Superintendent of Finance, contracted with the same John Banks, to furnish such provisions as the same army were in want of; both of which contracts met the approbation of his employers.

"Both these contracts required greater funds than the contractors could command, and the last, which was to supply rations for the army, was near being defeated, because the creditors—for supplies on the former contract—were about to deprive the contractors of their means to fulfil the last. In this situation, Gen. Greene had before him the alternative of turning the army loose upon the inhabitants, to plunder for their necessary food, or support, by his own credit, that of the contractors. He preferred the latter, and gave, in addition to the security of John Banks & Co., his own bond to Harris and Blachford, to secure an eventual payment for articles which had gone to the use of the United States in clothing the army.

"John Banks received of the United States the whole sum of the contract, but diverted the money from its proper channel, and left General Greene liable to pay the sum secured by the bond mentioned above, and another to Messrs. Newcomen and Collet. Banks & Co. became bankrupts, and, soon after, Banks died.

"The committee find that General Greene, as soon as he was apprised of any possible danger which might accrue to him, took measures to procure some security; but his attempts were ineffectual as to a complete indemnity. It appears he effected some payments, and obtained partial indemnity, but was left finally exposed to a large claim of Messrs. Newcomen and Collet, and this bond about which the present petition is conversant.

"Against the claim of Newcomen and Collet, Congress have indemnified the estate of General Greene, by an act passed April 27th, 1792.

"This act has served as a precedent to the committee, in deciding on the present petition, as there are the same reasons existing for the interference of Government now as then; to which may now be added the weight of precedent.

"For further particulars as to the merits of the claim, the committee ask leave to refer the House to a report of the Secretary of the Treasury, made to Congress on this subject, the 26th December, 1791, and which is herewith laid before them. The bond given by Gen. Greene to Harris and Blachford for J. Banks & Co., is dated 8th April, 1783, for the sum of £18,473, 13s. 7d. South Carolina currency. This sum, by a variety of negotiations and payments, has been considerably reduced; the committee have not been able to ascertain with precision the sum now due, but suppose it to be between eleven and twelve thousand pounds.

"The committee are of opinion that General Greene gave this bond with the sole and honorable motive of serving, to his utmost ability, the then pressing interest of the United States: and that the salvation of the Southern Army, and success of our arms in that part of the Union, in a great measure depended upon this timely interference of his private credit.

"They think the honor and justice of Government is pledged to indemnify the estate of General Greene, and by paying the sum due to Harris and Blachford, save a deserving family from indigence and ruin. They therefore report, for the consideration of the House, the following resolution, viz:

"Resolved, That the United States ought to indemnify the estate of the late General Greene, for the sum due on a bond, given by the said General Greene to Harris and Blachford, bearing date April 8, 1783, for the sum of £18,473, 13s. 7d., South Carolina currency, as surety for John Banks & Co.: Provided, That it shall appear, upon due investigation, by the officers of the Treasury, that the said General Greene, in his lifetime, or his executors since his decease, have not already been indemnified, for the contents of the said bond: And provided, That the said executors shall make over to the Comptroller of the Treasury, and his successors, for the United States, all mortgages, bonds, covenants, or other counter securities whatsoever, if such there are, which were obtained by General Greene in his lifetime, from the said Banks & Co., or either of them, on account of his being surety for them, as aforesaid; to be sued for in the name of the said executors, for the use of the United States: And the officers of the Treasury are hereby authorized to liquidate and settle the sum due to the estate of the said General Greene, to indemnify the same as aforesaid, according to the true intent and meaning of this resolution; and to pay such sum as may be found due on the said bond, out of the Treasury of the United States, to the said executors, to be accounted for by them, as part of the said estate."

After some debate on this subject, in the course of which the Speaker read, in his place, a letter he had received from the Secretary of the War Department, in consequence of a resolution passed on Saturday, calling for a letter which had been written by the late Colonel Burnett to the late Secretary of War, declaring that no such letter could be found in the War Office; and Mr. Coit spoke at considerable length against the claim—at length the question was put and carried in favor of the report, there being 51 members in the affirmative. The committee then rose, and the House took up the consideration, when, on motion of Mr. Blount, who said he had intended to have made some observations on this subject, but finding the majority so large in favor of the report, he could not believe what he should say would have any effect, the yeas and nays were taken and stood, yeas 56, nays 26, as follows:

Yeas.—Fisher Ames, Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Lemuel Benton, Benjamin Bourne, Theophilus Bradbury, Richard Brent, Dempsey Burges, Thomas Claiborne, William Cooper, Jeremiah Crabb, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, William B. Giles, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Christopher Greenup, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, John Heath, Daniel Heister, William Hindman, George Jackson, John Wilkes Kittera, Samuel Lyman, William Lyman, Francis Malbone, John Milledge, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, Anthony New, John Nicholas, John Read, Robert Rutherford, Samuel Sitgreaves, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, Isaac Smith, Samuel Smith, William Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., John Swanwick, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, Uriah Tracy, John E. Van Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Abraham Venable, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.

Nays.—Thomas Blount, Nathan Bryan, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Joshua Coit, Isaac Coles, George Dent, Samuel Earle, Jesse Franklin, Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Roger Griswold, William B. Grove, Wade Hampton, George Hancock, Thomas Henderson, James Holland, Aaron Kitchell, Matthew Locke, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, Andrew Moore, Nathaniel Smith, Thomas Sprigg, Absalom Tatom, and Richard Winn.

The resolution was referred to the Committee of Claims, to report a bill.

[The facts, as stated in the course of debate, were as follows:

A little time before the evacuation of Charleston by the English, in the fall of the year 1782, a number of merchants who had settled there, under British authority, were under the necessity of leaving the city. Thus situated, these merchants were willing to dispose of their goods in a way that would secure their money, and enable them to leave the country immediately. John Banks knowing of this, and being, it is said, a man of a speculative disposition, determined to avail himself of this offer. He therefore went into Charleston, at a time when General Greene was lying not far from its walls, and there made a contract with Messrs. Harris & Blachford for goods to the amount of £50,000, which were delivered to him under the firm of Hunter, Banks & Co. After Banks had made this purchase, he entered into contract with General Greene to supply the Army with clothes. Some time after that contract had taken place, the Army was in want of provisions, and the supplies were cut off, and about to fail, when Banks came forward and made a contract to supply the Army with provisions; but the funds which were to enable him to fulfil this contract, were in the goods he had lately bought, and an interference of his partners and creditors took place. The creditors were afraid if these goods were disposed of for that purpose, their security would be lessened, and his partners were not willing that he should convert their joint property to his own particular benefit—for they, it seems, were to have nothing to do with the provision contract. To surmount these difficulties, security was required. The creditors of Banks would be satisfied, if security was given. In this state of things, General Greene became security for Banks, in his first purchase. Banks afterwards received the whole sum of the contract, but diverted the money from its proper channel, and left General Greene liable to pay the sum secured by the bond to Harris & Blachford.

The question in the committee was, whether General Greene entered into this security with the sole view of obtaining provisions for his Army in a time of distress, or whether he had some concern or partnership in the transaction. The following particulars were mentioned, to prove that the security was given for no other purpose than that of obtaining food for his men. The first purchase of Banks was made in September, 1782; the evacuation of Charleston took place in December following. Banks's clothing contract was made a few days previous to the evacuation; his proposal for the provision contract was made about the same time, but not actually entered into till the 18th of February, 1783, and not completed till General Greene's security was given on the 8th of April. On the 7th of May, General Greene got a counter security. It could not be seen, as was observed, for what purpose General Greene entered into this contract, if it were not for the relief of his army. Had General Greene been a partner, would he have required security of Banks six months after the contract, when business was going on extremely well—when Banks was in good credit, and making money, and when no doubt could be entertained of him? It was insisted he would not: but, having no connection with him, he thought it prudent to obtain a counter security.

On the other hand, various suggestions were thrown out which had somewhat of a suspicious appearance—such as General Greene's forcing his men to buy clothing, &c., of Banks, at an exorbitant price, reports in the Army, a letter said to be written by the late Colonel Burnett, who, it appears, was a partner of John Banks, intimating that General Greene was a partner in the concern, though his name was never mentioned in it; but nothing like proof appeared to the committee upon which to ground any reliance. Indeed, if General Greene had any concern with Banks, it seemed to be a matter which could not be proved, as, in General Greene's lifetime, he brought an action against Mr. Ferry, one of the partners with Banks, which was tried at Charleston, when every thing in Mr. Ferry's cause depended on proving General Greene a partner; but he failed in doing it, and having failed, it was said to be pretty strong presumptive evidence that it could not be proved; because Mr. Ferry might have brought a cross bill against General Greene, and oblige him to declare on oath that he was in no way interested in the suit, which he did not think it proper to do.

The report of the committee was at length agreed to, as before stated, and a bill ordered to be brought in, which subsequently passed. By this decision, between £11,000 and £12,000 sterling will be paid out of the Treasury of the United States to the executors of General Greene. The yeas and nays, on the passing of the bill, stood, 55 to 24.]

Friday, May 27.

Amy Dardin's Horse.[79]

On motion of Mr. Claiborne, the House formed itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee of Claims on the petition of Amy Dardin, who prayed for compensation for a very valuable horse which had been impressed during the war. The report was against the petitioner, on the ground of the act of limitation barring the claim. The case appeared a hard one, as a widow and orphans were in want of the money; and several members having suggested that application had been made before the act of limitation took place, proof of which could be substantiated, the committee rose, and the papers were recommitted to the Committee of Claims.

Monday, May 30.

Military and Naval Appropriations.[80]

The House went into a Committee of the Whole on the bill providing appropriations for the Military and Naval Establishments; when,

On motion of Mr. W. Smith, the blank for the sum for the payment of the Army was filled with $273,666.

Mr. W. Smith proposed to fill up the next blank, for the subsistence of the officers of the Army, with $68,480.

Mr. Gallatin said, he was not ready to vote for this object. It had been usual to appropriate the subsistence of the officers and non-commissioned officers and privates all in one sum. He did not know what were the separate calculations.

Mr. W. Smith believed that it had been usual to put the two subjects together heretofore, but the Secretary of War had suggested the propriety of placing them under different heads. It was therefore done.

Mr. Gallatin said, when he objected to this plan of putting the two objects together, it was not merely on account of the arrangement, but because he did not know the amount calculated for the different descriptions. He knew, however, the rations were calculated at 30 cents. He would move to fill the blank with 20 cents, which would be two-thirds of the amount proposed. He would give his reasons for thus filling the blank. It would be found, by a communication from the Secretary of the Treasury at the commencement of the session, that, in the estimate for the Military Department, rations were charged 15 cents each, making the whole subsistence for 6,000 men $367,061; notwithstanding the nominal Army Establishment had been reduced one-half, the total amount of expense was estimated as high as before. The items upon which an increase had been made, were subsistence, hospital, ordnance, and quartermaster's departments, and protection of frontiers. It would be found that, in the second estimate of the Secretary, lately made, rations were estimated at 30 cents each, which made the whole amount of subsistence $437,762.

This difference in the estimate led the Committee of Ways and Means to an inquiry into the business, because, as the nominal establishment was decreased from 6,000 to 3,000 men, they had hoped there would have been some decrease of expense also. They received for answer, that rations could not be contracted at Detroit for less than 30 cents each; but though this, by the contract, was the price of rations at that post, they could not suppose they would cost the same at the other posts. It also appeared, from the information received from the Secretary of the Treasury, that the contract which had been made, was upon these terms—to furnish rations either at Detroit at 30 cents, or at Pittsburg at 11 cents, the place of delivery being at the option of Government. It would be seen that there was a difference betwixt those two prices of 19 cents; and he would ask whether any gentleman in that House believed that it would cost 19 cents per ration to transport them from Pittsburg to Detroit? He did not think that transportation would, on an average, cost 9 cents. The distance by land was not 200 miles; and water carriage would reduce it to 20.

Mr. W. Smith said, if agreeing to this motion would save the money, it would deserve attention; but, if they were to make the appropriation so small as to embarrass Government, it would be much worse than if they were to vote for a little too much. There would be a certain number of men who must be fed, and he thought they might rely upon the Administration's not giving more for rations than was necessary. But, if the sum voted was too small, what would be the consequence? The rations must be got, be the prices what they may; the men must be fed. Difficulties would arise if the fund appropriated should prove inadequate. He did not see that there would be any real saving by reducing the sum appropriated.

Mr. Bourne hoped the blank would be filled up with the sum proposed by the gentleman from South Carolina. It had been stated that rations might be purchased at Pittsburg for 11 cents, but they could not be bought for less than 30 at Detroit, and he thought they could not calculate upon any other price than that, as it was uncertain whether or not the contract would be fulfilled; and if it failed, and the Secretary of the Treasury was obliged to purchase at Detroit, if they calculated the rations at 20 cents only, he would not be able to purchase the necessary provisions for their men; but if, on the contrary, 30 cents were agreed to, there would be enough in any case, and if the ration could be bought for 20 cents, he did not fear that the money would be expended unnecessarily.

Mr. Venable said he should not feel himself justified in appropriating more than was necessary for the object before them; for, if they were not to be guided by a proper estimate, they might as well at once give an unlimited power on the Treasury. All the expenses could not be estimated to be made at Detroit. If one-third of our men were kept at Detroit, he should think it a large number. Why, then fix the price as if the whole Army was to be kept there? And, even in that case, 20 cents would be a large appropriation. Why, then, embarrass themselves by making a larger appropriation than was necessary? The Army would be extended on the whole frontier, and at some places rations would be bought cheaper than at Pittsburg.

Mr. Dayton (the Speaker) observed, that the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) assumed as undeniable, and established as the foundation of his arguments and objections, what he did not only not admit, but absolutely denied, viz: that the rations of provisions would cost the United States more when delivered at Detroit, than at any other post. He believed there were two or three others at which the price would be higher than at Detroit, and mentioned Michilimacinac in particular. The gentlemen who were for reducing this item of appropriation, had referred to the contract which had been made some time since, and had, at the same time, acknowledged the extraordinary advance in the price of the necessaries of life, even in the interior of the country. The latter event, said Mr. D., was of a nature to excite much fear that the contract would be thrown back upon the United States, owing to the inability it would create in the individuals to fulfil it, and ought, therefore, to prompt Congress to guard against such an exigency, by a more ample provision than would otherwise have been requisite.

Mr. W. Smith said there was one fact which he forgot to mention. The Secretary of the Treasury informed the Committee of Ways and Means that the contractor would lose money by the contract to deliver the rations at 11 cents at Pittsburg, and it was possible, therefore, that it might not be fulfilled. Gentlemen say—why provide the money if it be not wanted? They seemed to mistake the business; the money was to be borrowed, and if not wanted, it would not be taken. No more would be expended because there was more than sufficient appropriated. There would be no money lying unemployed in the Treasury.

Mr. Gallatin believed the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Smith) would not deny that his information was correct. The contract was made to deliver the rations either at Pittsburg or Detroit, at the option of Government. To calculate the whole number of rations at 30 cents, was considering the whole Army at Detroit; and, though it be true, that there be one post more distant than Detroit, yet, the greater number were far nearer, and consequently, where provisions would be got cheaper. Therefore, considering the price at Detroit to be the general price, was allowing too much. This, he believed, would not be controverted.

Mr. Nicholas said, he should be glad to know what was the price of rations in the Atlantic States. One half of the Establishment would be upon the Eastern waters, and, therefore, the money necessary to be appropriated would depend, in some degree, upon the price of rations there. He thought 20 cents would be a full average price for the whole.

Mr. Havens said, that if they were to fix the price too high, it might produce a combination amongst the contractors to advance the price—as he believed there was a greater likelihood of combination than competition amongst them. He knew this was no reason why they should fix the price too low, but he thought it was a consideration which should lead them to vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Pennsylvania.

The original motion was put, and negatived, 34 to 31; and then Mr. Gallatin's, to fill the blank with $45,606, was put, and carried.

Mr. W. Smith moved to fill the next blank, for the subsistence of non-commissioned officers and privates, with $369,282, which was calculating the rations at 30 cents each.

The question was put, and negatived, 33 to 30.

Mr. Gallatin then moved to have the blank filled with $246,188, which was calculating the rations at 20 cents each.

Mr. Dayton hoped that the sum named would not be agreed to; if it were, he believed that the soldiers of the Army would not be subsisted. He was satisfied that gentlemen who proposed and advocated so scanty and inadequate sums had the same views as he had; but he was, nevertheless, convinced, that so far from promoting economy, they would eventually produce profusion.

Mr. Dayton concluded with saying, that he did not wish to appropriate lavishly, but his sole aim was to avoid any of those serious consequences which would inevitably flow from an ill-judged parsimony; and he should sit down and console himself under any event, with the reflection, that he had discharged his duty.

Mr. W. Smith moved to fill the blank with $360,000, which was carried, 34 to 31.

On motion of Mr. W. Smith, the blank for forage was filled with $16,592, and that for clothing was filled with $70,000, without debate. He proposed to fill the blank for providing horses for cavalry, with $7,500; when

Mr. Blount observed, that he thought it unnecessary to provide for the purchase of horses, when they had resolved upon reducing the number of troops.

Mr. Gallatin said he would just notice, that when the full number of horses was kept up, the appropriations for clothing were the same as now, and those for horses were less. The former estimate was $6,000 for horses; now, $7,500; so that the more they reduce the Army, the greater was the expense.

Mr. Macon believed, there were as many horses now in the service as would complete two companies, and they could not, with any propriety, calculate upon one-half dying. He moved to strike out the item altogether.

The motion was put and negatived, 33 to 26.

Mr. Havens said, he did not vote for striking out the item altogether, as he supposed some money would be wanted, but could not think so much as had been mentioned was necessary.