FIRST CONGRESS.—FIRST SESSION. (continued 7)

Mr. Page was for striking out all the words, because he conceived it would be against the spirit of the constitution. It would be much more handsome to make one general provision, than to be thus particular in enumerating the articles of expense. It has been hinted, that these articles of expense would amount to half the sum mentioned in the report to be given as a compensation; if so, he would propose to strike out all that related to the subject, and so insert twenty-five or thirty thousand, as the House shall deem most eligible.

Mr. Stone thought the President ought to be at liberty to live in any style he thought proper, and that the House ought to give him such compensation as they thought his services merited. If you furnish him with a house, horses, and carriages, you declare that this is the house, the horses, and the carriages which he shall use. There is certainly some degree of indelicacy in this; if he was a private gentleman, he would be at liberty to use such as he liked best. Suppose he dislikes them, and will not have them, he is guilty of a breach of the law, is it intended by the House to impeach him for it? I apprehend it is not, for no part of the constitution gives us a right to dictate to him on this head. He would rather let the President set the example how he ought to live, than see the Legislature direct him. Economy is by no means disadvantageous to the United States; if the President chooses to live in an economical manner, we ought not to prevent him.

Mr. Vining thought, as the President was the representative of the nation, that there ought to be a proper degree of dignity attached to the office; he did not wish for splendor, but hoped to avoid the appearance of penury. If he was right in this opinion, the House had a right to show what they expected of the President, and, consequently, had a right to enter into the enumeration proposed in the report, and establish a uniform rule of conduct in the presidential chair.

With respect to its constitutionality, his mind was perfectly easy, the constitution appeared to be silent; if so, the House had the right of interfering. He wondered how gentlemen could agree to provide plate and furniture, yet hesitate with respect to the clerks and secretary. Were not the latter as necessary as the former? If so, they ought to be equally provided for.

The question on Mr. Lawrence's motion was now taken, and decided in the affirmative.

Mr. Page now moved to strike out twenty thousand dollars, and insert thirty thousand.

Mr. Smith inquired whether it was the intention of the House to saddle the President with the expense incurred, in consequence of their resolution of the 15th April. He understood that near ten thousand dollars had been laid out in purchasing furniture, and putting the house in order for his reception; it might be disagreeable to the President to take it. Perhaps he would be a considerable loser by such a bargain, and many of the things might be of a nature he disliked. He thought the House had been inconsistent with itself in ordering these things for the President, and then refusing to let them be applied to his use.

Mr. Sherman thought the House need not be embarrassed on this point. The expense is to be paid by the United States, and the furniture will be their property, to do what they please with. Neither did he think the House inconsistent, because it was the object of the Legislature, by their former vote, to provide only for the temporary accommodation of the President.

Mr. Benson said, the business had been properly conducted. It was not in contemplation to throw the furniture or any other expense upon the President. He presumed the property belonged to the United States, but they would sell to the President such part as he chose to purchase. As to the house, the President was not confined to it; he might give it up when he pleased, and take another if he thought proper.

The question on striking out twenty thousand and inserting thirty thousand was divided, and the first part was agreed to, but the latter rejected.

It was now moved to strike out the words secretary and clerks.

Mr. Madison thought the Executive Magistrate ought not to have the power of creating officers; yet if he appointed his secretary and clerks, and they were recognized, either with respect to salary or official acts, they became officers of the Government.

Mr. Benson did not think it necessary to recognize any such officers; they were to be esteemed the mere instruments of the President, and not as sharing in the administration.

The motion was put, and carried in the affirmative, and then the House adjourned.

Thursday, July 16.

Compensation of the President, &c.

The House resumed the consideration of the Report of the Committee on the Compensation to the President, Vice President, and Members of Congress.

The blank occasioned by striking out on Monday last, was now proposed to be filled.

Mr. Livermore moved to fill it with 18,000 dollars.

Mr. Burke said, there were some members of the committee in favor of 15,000 dollars; others indeed were for a much larger sum—he believed they went so far as 70,000 dollars; that 20,000 dollars was an accommodation, and as such he had agreed to it; but he was of opinion that 15,000 dollars was sufficient; that 20,000 had been once agreed to, but the expenses were added at a subsequent meeting of the committee; now, as the House had concurred in striking out 20,000 dollars, and a proposition was come forward more correspondent to his judgment, he should give it support.

Mr. Fitzsimons presumed it was not a question before the House what the report of the committee had been, nor were the sentiments any gentleman had there delivered to operate against the sense expressed by the committee in their report; if any thing done in committee was to influence the decision of the House, it must be the report, which spoke the sense of the majority. He further presumed, that when the 20,000 dollars were struck out, after all the expense had been erased, it was in the contemplation of the honorable mover to increase the sum so as to include both articles. It was with this view he voted in favor of striking out the 20,000 dollars.

Mr. Tucker said it might happen, that the expenses a President would incur at the first entering on the office would be so great as to injure his private fortune and distress his family. A quarter's salary might be insufficient to defray the expense; yet if the President continued but three months in office, this sum would be all he was entitled to. He thought it just and requisite to provide against accidents of this kind, if it could be done consistently with the constitution. With this object in view, he would propose that the President's compensation should be 26,000 dollars for the first year, and 16,000 dollars for every other year; that 10,000 dollars should be paid him in advance, on his coming to the chair, and the remainder in quarterly payments. Its amount, he said, would be nearly what was proposed by the gentleman from New Hampshire (Mr. Livermore); and if the House was disposed to fix on that sum, as a proper compensation, they might, without any material change, admit his proposition; but if they meant to grant either a greater or a less sum, he hoped they would accommodate it to his principle.

Mr. Stone said, that a sum of 25,000 dollars would be as small a sum as would answer the purpose; and provided that amount should be agreed to, the expense of the Executive would be less to the people than that of any Government in the world. If it is considered that the unavoidable expense will be great, and that the assistance of two or more secretaries will be necessary for the President to discharge his high and important trust, and that it cannot be expected that persons in such a station should be in straitened or dependent circumstances, this sum will not be found to exceed the absolute expense, with a moderate compensation for the services of the President. It is also a maxim of sound policy, that executive officers should be independent.

Mr. White.—Sir, I do not say that 25,000 dollars will or will not be sufficient; but in order to determine the necessary sum, I should wish to know the style in which the President is expected to live. If a style of magnificence and splendor is to be adopted, the sum is too small; and if economy is pursued, it may be too much. Until this is known, it will be extremely difficult to decide upon a proper sum; and when I give my vote, I wish to give it on such information as will satisfy my mind with respect to its propriety, and show my constituents the reasonableness of the measure. Will he live in a more expensive style than the former Presidents of Congress, or will he live nearly in the same? If so, what was that expense, or what will be the probable increase? How was that money applied, and what will now be necessary? If these questions can be answered, gentlemen may decide with more precision than they can while the subject is left afloat.

Mr. Baldwin said, it was impossible to get the information the gentleman required, the committee had made all the examination in their power with respect to the actual expense of supporting the office. They found former Presidents of Congress, whose office, by the by, was less important, and whose assistants were less numerous, expended 7,000, 8,000, and so on to 13,000 dollars annually. From this, some gentlemen were led to believe 17,000 dollars might be sufficient in this instance. But we were, said he, left without any thing satisfactory on this subject, and when the question was pressed on the committee, they varied from 15,000 to 25,000 dollars; we were therefore obliged to average the sum.

We were satisfied that it must be left to experiment to determine what the allowance ought to be; and we were certain that the gentleman who had to make the first experiment would do it in such a manner as to give satisfaction to every body. He knows the way to blend dignity and economy; and I would rather, on this account, make the allowance too much than too little. I would, therefore, prefer making the experiment at 25,000 dollars; a sum that, in the President's hands, will give umbrage to no one.

Mr. Boudinot made some further observations respecting the examination made by the committee, from which it appeared that the expenses of the President of the United States would exceed the expenses of the late President of Congress in a variety of cases. Two secretaries would be wanting; they must be men of abilities and information; but the committee conceived extra provision would be made for them by the House. If the whole was to be comprehended in one grant to the President, he would rather increase the sum reported by the committee than diminish it. Originally he was in favor of allowing 16,000; but then he thought the expense of secretaries, carriages, furniture, &c., was to be an additional allowance. Since the House had determined otherwise, he favored an addition to the 20,000 dollars.

Mr. Jackson was disposed to move 30,000 dollars; but he was willing to accommodate, and agree to 25,000 dollars.

Mr. Vining observed, that the committee had no documents whereby they could form a judgment; they had no light to guide them. They could not foresee what ambassadors and foreign ministers might be sent to this country, nor the expenses the President must necessarily incur upon that account, to support the honor and dignity of the United States. He further remarked, that there are cases in which generosity is the best economy, and no loss is ever sustained by a decent support of the Magistrate. A certain appearance of parade and external dignity is necessary to be supported. Did I, said he, represent a larger State, I would speak with more confidence on the subject. We are haunted by the ghost of poverty; we are stunned with the clamor of complaint throughout the States. But under the auspices of an energetic Government, our funds will be established and augmented, and, I make no doubt, will be found sufficient to answer all the purposes of the Union. But our calculations ought not to be confined to the present moment alone. If it should be contended by any gentleman, that we have it not in our power to support the Government in a proper style, then there is an end of the business. We should remember that the present time is the season for organizing the Government. A patient and mature deliberation is requisite to investigate it, and by that means the amount of the civil list will be increased; in future, the sessions will be short, and the load of expense greatly diminished. He was opposed to any reduction of the sum, as he had always thought it too small, and would rather propose to fill the blank with 30,000 dollars.

Mr. Page mentioned that 30,000 dollars had been proposed; though he thought the sum adequate, it was not sufficient to support pomp and parade. Those, he said, were entirely out of the question. He had made a calculation upon the probable necessary expenses, and found, that exclusive of that dignity and pageantry talked of, this sum would suffice. If he had contemplated the splendor and pageantry alluded to, he should not have thought of 30,000 dollars, nor 40,000 dollars, for he believed 100,000 dollars insufficient. But if the committee, upon investigation, were convinced that 20,000 dollars would be a compensation for his services, exclusive of an allowance for his expenses, when the whole was taken together it must at least amount to 30,000 dollars; for this reason he moved to fill the blank with that sum.

The question on 30,000 dollars was put, and rejected.

Mr. Page then moved 25,000 dollars, which was carried; affirmative 30, negative 17.

The House then proceeded to the second part of the report, viz: "That there be paid in like quarterly payments to the Vice President of the United States, 5,000 dollars per annum."

Mr. White.—I do not like the principle on which this provision is made for the Vice President; there is nothing, I believe, in the constitution which gives him a right to an annual sum; it fixes no duty upon him as Vice President, requiring a constant attendance. He may be called upon to act as President, and then I would give him the salary of the President; at other times, he is to preside as President of the Senate, then I would pay him for his services in that character. On this principle, I shall move to strike out the clause; if that is agreed to, I propose to offer one, allowing him the pay of President, when he acts as President; and a daily pay during the time he acts as President of the Senate.

Mr. Page would second the motion for striking out five thousand dollars, but with a different view from what had been intended by his worthy colleague. He wished it struck out, in order to introduce a larger sum. His idea was, that a proper proportion was not observed between the salary of the First and Second Magistrates. As to the utility of the office, he had nothing to say. He had no hand in forming the constitution; if he had, perhaps he should never have thought of such an officer; but as we have got him, we must maintain him; and those gentlemen who talk of respectability being attached to high offices, must admit, in a comparative view, that he is not supported with dignity, provided a situation derives its dignity from the money given him by way of salary; for his part, he thought money, abstractedly considered, could not bestow dignity. Real dignity of character proceeds from a much nobler source; but he apprehended the people of the United States, whose representative the Vice President was, would be displeased to see so great a distinction made between the President and him.

Mr. Sedgwick said, the arguments of the honorable gentleman from Virginia (Mr. White) did not strike him with any force, nor did he see the impropriety spoken of. One reason why the pay of the members of the Senate and House is per diem is, because they contemplate their being together but a very inconsiderable part of their time; but I suppose, said he, that every gentleman who has considered the subject, has determined in his own mind that the Vice President ought to remain constantly at the seat of Government; he must always be ready to take the reins of Government when they shall fall out of the hands of the President; hence it will be necessary that he should, for this cause, if not for any other, preclude himself from every object of employment, and devote his whole time to prepare himself for the great and important charge for which he is a candidate. Under these circumstances, it is necessary that he should be provided with a constant salary, to support that rank which we contemplate for him to bear; I therefore conceive it must be such a perpetual salary as the President is entitled to receive. If the principles of the motion are inadmissible, it cannot be supported by argument, because very little information can be obtained on which to ground our reasoning.

Mr. Seney said, that, according to the constitution, a compensation is to be made for services performed. The Vice President may absent himself the whole time. He proposed giving him a handsome allowance while employed, but thought he ought to be paid per diem.

Mr. Sherman adverted to the circumstance of salaries being allowed to Lieutenant Governors in the several States where such officers are appointed; so that, according to this mode, the grant made to the Vice President would correspond with the practice of the States individually. It appeared also, he said, to be necessary, inasmuch as this officer would be taken from all other business.

Mr. White.—If I thought, sir, the attendance of the Vice President as necessary as that of the President, I would not hesitate to allow him an annual salary; but I do not conceive it to be so necessary; it is not made so by the constitution. If he had been appointed Vice President as a perpetual counsel for the President, it would have altered the case; he would then have had services to render, for which we ought to compensate him. The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Sedgwick) has intimated that he will be precluded from following any other business; there is nothing in the constitution which precludes him from following what profession he thinks proper. I am willing to pay him a full and liberal allowance for all the services he renders; but I do not think we are authorized to institute sinecures for any man.

It ought to be considered that the Vice President has personal advantages from the appointment to that office; it holds him up as the successor of the President; the voice of the people is shown to be considerably in his favor; and if he be a deserving person, there will be but little doubt of his succeeding to the presidential chair; not that I would make this an argument to diminish his compensation. I would pay him amply for all the services he renders, at least as amply as the Government and circumstances of the people will admit. When performing the duties of President, he should receive the salary as such.

The constitution has stipulated, that the President shall be compensated for his services, that we shall ascertain it by law; but it has not said one syllable with respect to the pay of the Vice President; hence I consider it would be improper to pay him on any other principle than in proportion to his services. If these require five thousand dollars a year, it may be made to amount to that sum, at so much per diem.

As to the observations of the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. Sherman,) that Lieutenant Governors receive salaries in the several States, and therefore it will be proper to grant one to the Vice President, in order to comport with the practice of the States individually, I shall only remark, that in some States they have no such officer; in others, where they have such an officer, they give him no pay at all; in some, they are paid according to their attendance on business, in the manner that I propose to pay the Vice President. But admitting that every State had an officer of this kind, and that they paid him a salary like that proposed in the report, it would be no argument why the General Government should pursue a practice inconsistent with that economy and sense of propriety which it ought to be the study of the Representatives of the people of the United States to preserve to their constituents.

Mr. Madison.—I do not concur, Mr. Speaker, in sentiment, with my colleague on this subject. I conceive, sir, if the constitution is silent on this point, that it is left to the Legislature to decide according to its nature and its merits. The nature of the office will require that the Vice President shall always be in readiness to render that service which contingencies may require; but I do not apprehend it to be in our power to derive much advantage from any guides furnished by the examples of the several States; because we shall find them differently provided for by the different Governments. If we consider that the Vice President may be taken from the extremity of the continent, and be from the nature of his office obliged to reside at or within the convenient reach of the seat of Government, to take upon him the exercise of the President's functions, in case of any accident that may deprive the Union of the services of their first officer, we must see, I think, it will often happen that he will be obliged to be constantly at the seat of Government. No officer under a State Government can be so far removed as to make it inconvenient to be called upon when his services are required; so that, if he serve without a salary, it may be he can reside at home, and pursue his domestic business; therefore the application in that case does not appear to me to be conclusive.

My colleague says that he will derive advantages from being in the line of appointment to the presidential chair. If he is to be considered as the apparent successor of the President, to qualify himself the better for that office, he must withdraw from his other avocations, and direct his attention to the obtaining a perfect knowledge of his intended business.

The idea that a man ought to be paid only in proportion to his services, holds good in some cases, but not in others. It holds good in legislative business, but not in the executive or judicial departments. A judge will be sometimes unemployed, as in the case of the Vice President; yet it is found necessary to claim the whole of his time and attention to the duties for which he is appointed. If the principle of proportioning the allowance to the quantum of services performed obtains, it will be found that the Judiciary will be as dependent on the legislative authority, as if the Legislature was to declare what shall be their salary for the succeeding year; because, by abridging their services at every session, we could reduce them to such a degree, as to require a very trifling compensation indeed. Neither do I, Mr. Speaker, consider this as a sinecure; but that will appear from the reasons already given. The office of a judge is liable, in some degree, to the same objection; but these kinds of objections are levelled against the institutions themselves. We are to consider his appointment as a part of the constitution; and if we mean to carry the constitution into full effect, we ought to make provision for his support, adequate to the merits and nature of the office.

Mr. Ames said that the Vice President's acceptance of his appointment was a renunciation of every other avocation. When a man is taken from the mass of the people for a particular office, he is entitled to a compensation from the public; during the time in which he is not particularly employed, he is supposed to be engaged in political researches for the benefit of his country.

Every man is eligible, by the constitution, to be chosen to this office; but if a competent support is not allowed, the choice will be confined to opulent characters. This is an aristocratic idea, and contravenes the spirit of the constitution.

Mr. Seney.—This, sir, is a subject of a delicate nature, and the discussion of it rather disagreeable; but I think it my duty to declare my sentiments freely upon it. No argument has been adduced to convince me that the Vice President ought to receive an allowance any more than the other members of the Legislature. He cannot be compelled to perform any duty. This is an important subject, and ought to be maturely considered, as a great deal depends on the decision which will now take place.

Mr. Burke observed that the situation of our finances was so much embarrassed, as to dis-empower us from giving such ample salaries as we might, under different circumstances, think necessary; that it was but reasonable the Vice President should receive a compensation adequate to the second officer in the Government. He will be subject to extra expenses by living at the seat of Government, and will be obliged to maintain his dignity. Mr. B. further suggested that the sum might not be fully sufficient, but in our present situation, it was as much as we could afford.

Mr. Ames, in his reply to Mr. Seney's observations, pointed out the difference of the situation of the Vice President and the members of the Legislature.

Mr. Sedgwick made some additional remarks of a similar nature, and further observed, it would be necessary that the members of the House should return and associate with their constituents, in order to learn their sentiments and their feelings, and witness their situation and wants, that they may consequently resume their former occupations: but with respect to the Vice President, his acceptance must be considered as an abandonment of every other pursuit; he must reside at the seat of Government, and will necessarily incur extra expenses in consequence of his office.

Mr. Stone.—I am for giving such salaries to the officers of this Government, as will render them easy in their situation. But we are confined by the constitution; salaries are to be given for services performed; they are considered in no other light. The Vice President cannot be viewed in any other light than that of the President of the Senate. I am for his being paid per diem, but would allow him a generous support. I do not think five thousand dollars are sufficient; I would allow him a larger sum, which allowance, per diem, would amount to what would be fully adequate.

Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, said, that by the constitution the Vice President could not be considered as a Senator, and therefore could not, with any propriety, be paid as such. Considering him as an officer in the Government, next in dignity to the President, and particularly designated by the constitution, he must support a correspondent dignity in his style of living, and consequently ought to have a competent allowance for that purpose. He did not think five thousand dollars would be considered too much, and would vote for that sum. The idea of a daily allowance must be given up, as inapplicable to the situation assigned him by the constitution. He is there recognized as Vice President, and as such ought to be provided for. A daily pay of twenty-five or thirty dollars would appear a large compensation; yet if Congress sat but one hundred days, which, in all probability, would be the length of their future sessions, it would be insufficient for his support. But suppose it one hundred and fifty days; this, at thirty dollars per day, would come so near the proposed salary, that the saving would be an inconsiderable trifle; but if the session was longer, it might amount to more than is contemplated by any gentleman.

Mr. Page was clearly for making the allowance by annual salary, because the office was permanent; a daily allowance could not be relied upon, because if the Senate sat but a few days, it would be incompetent, even at one hundred dollars per day; whereas, if the session was of long continuance, that sum would be more than the services could require, if they are to hold a comparison with those of the President. If the House agreed to strike out the five thousand dollars he would propose eight thousand, which was not one third of what was given to the President.

Mr. Boudinot.—The question seems to turn merely on this point, whether the Vice President shall receive a per diem allowance, or an annual salary? The constitution ought to serve as the ground on which to determine it; therefore we are to consider the point of view in which this office is placed by that instrument. The second article calls him into view with the President; he is to be elected in the same manner as the President, in order to obtain the second best character in the Union to fill the place of the first, in case it should be vacated by any unforeseen accident. The constitution considers him a respectable officer; he is to supersede the President, when it shall happen that the First Magistrate dies or is removed on impeachment and conviction. These are the great objects of his appointment. His duty as President of the Senate is only collateral; consequently he ought to be respected, and provided for according to the dignity and importance of his principal character. If still inferior duties were attached to him, would it be an argument for reducing the compensation to an equality with what ought to be granted, if he performed such inferior duties only? I apprehend it is a principle of this nature which urges gentlemen on to press the amendment. I cannot see any reason for differing with the constitution on a point in which I think it ought to guide our decision.

I think there is an affinity between the duration of the office and the compensation. The constitution establishes the office for four years; the compensation ought to be made commensurate with that idea.

The question on Mr. White's motion was taken and lost, as was Mr. Page's motion for striking out 5,000 and inserting 8,000 dollars.

The proposition being then agreed to,

The House proceeded to consider the following: That the daily pay of the members of the Senate, and House of Representatives, for their attendance at the time appointed for the meeting of their respective Houses, and for the time they shall be going to, and returning therefrom, allowing the travel of twenty miles for each day, be six dollars, and of the Speaker of the House of Representatives twelve dollars.

Mr. Sedgwick moved to amend this proposition, so as to give to the members of the Senate six dollars per day, and five to the members of the House of Representatives. His reason for introducing this distinction was, that the convention had made it in the constitution. The Senators are required to be of an advanced age, and are elected for six years. Now this term taken out of the life of a man, passed the middle stage, may be fairly deemed equal to a whole life; for it was to be expected, that few, if any, of the Senators could return to their former occupations when the period for retirement arrived; indeed after six years spent in other pursuits, it may be questioned whether a man would be qualified to return with any prospect of success.

He did not say six dollars was more than a compensation for their services and expenses; but as economy ought to be particularly studied by the Legislature, he had moved to reduce it. He hoped gentlemen would pay some deference to the public opinion, on the present occasion; this he thought to be in favor of small salaries. Not but a different sentiment might prevail in some of the States; perhaps different circumstances might warrant the difference of opinion. It was probable that five dollars laid out in that part of the Union from which he came, would be more advantageous to the person, than a like sum laid out at the other extremity of the continent; but he believed, nevertheless, that something would be left to those gentlemen out of the five dollars per day, after their expenses were paid; but even if a little self-denial was the consequence of this reduction, it would do but little harm; whereas the precedent might have a salutary influence upon the future administration of the Government.

Mr. Jackson.—I am opposed to this discrimination, because all have alike abandoned their particular pursuits in life, and all have equally engaged in the service of their common country. On what principle can this distinction then be contended for? Is it expected that a Senator shall eat more, or drink more costly liquors, than a member of the House of Representatives? I presume it is not; their expenses must be nearly equal. I can see but one reason that can be assigned for this difference, which is, that the Senate may sit longer than the House; but considering they are to receive pay accordingly, this reason is of no weight. The duties of both Houses are equal, and the pay ought to be alike.

I will submit to the gentleman who brought this motion forward, whether it is not much worse to the personal interest of men in business to be taken off in the prime of life, than after the successful pursuit of some profession at an advanced age, when the natural and proper time of retirement arrives; and if so, his argument falls to the ground. But if the reverse is true, it will not support his motion, because, if we look around, our senses will inform us that this House contains as venerable and aged members as any within the walls of the Senate; thus again we are upon a footing. Now, unless gentlemen mean that we should depress ourselves, and thereby set the Senate above us, I cannot conceive what foundation there will be for a discrimination.

Mr. Lee.—I am in favor of the motion for discriminating between the Senate and this House, because the constitution has done it in a variety of modes. The qualifications are superior; a Senator must be a man advanced in life, and have been nine years a citizen of the United States; while a younger man who has been but seven years a citizen, may obtain a seat in this House.

The constitution has made a difference in the mode of election. The Senators are selected with peculiar care; they are the purified choice of the people, and the best men are likely to be preferred by such a choice; those who have shown the fullest proofs of their attachment to the public interest, and evinced to their countrymen their superior abilities. In order to bring forth such characters to partake of our public councils, I think every motive of honor and of interest ought to be called into action. If men are not brought forth who will maintain their own dignity, and promote the public interest by a firm and independent conduct, regardless of every risk, regardless of the voice of calumny or popular clamor, our Government will soon lose its importance and its energy. I contemplate, Mr. Speaker, the Senate as a barrier between the Executive and this branch of the Legislature, shielding the people from any apprehension of being attacked by an aspiring Magistracy on the one hand, and on the other from being desolated by the anarchy often generated by a time-servingness to veering popularity. We shall gain these desirable objects at a trifling price, if we make a distinction of two or three dollars per day—a trifling allowance indeed to our most worthy sages. But, said the gentleman last up, there are as young men in the Senate as in this House; although there be, the time will come when none but the most venerable and respectable of our citizens, men whose hoary heads are silvered over with the honors of an experienced old age, men illustrious by their virtues and capacity, will have the public confidence ensured to them by the purity and notoriety of their principles.

Now is the time to deliberate and view every future circumstance which may arise from our decision; the importance of this principle hereafter, is infinitely above every advantage which the present members may derive from it. By it alone you may secure dignity and permanency to the Government, and happiness under its administration.

It is with difficulty, Mr. Speaker, that you can draw forth men of age and much experience to participate in the political concerns of their country. Retirement and reflection are incident to that period of life; they are sought for, and, when obtained, they are highly prized. The wise and virtuous sage, who from the monitions of nature has discovered that his remaining years will be but few, must be incited by every motive that can operate on the human heart to continue those labors which he seeks to bury the remembrance of in the deeps of solitude. Honor may stimulate the ingenuous mind; but interest is a great reason of action, and may be usefully employed to influence old age.

What I have now urged is in favor of the constitutional distinction; I approve of the amendment, but I wish the sum had been left out, that the provision might be determined according to the sense of the House, and not affect the principal question of discrimination. I am satisfied, sir, that there is no heart within these walls but beats with patriotic ardor, and has determined to pursue the noblest object, the public good. Nothing but the anxiety I feel for this, as connected with the present question, could have induced me to trouble the House with a repetition of what was dilated upon, on a former occasion. Let it then be considered, that on our decision depend the dignity of the Legislature, and the perpetuity of that Government, the glory and the hopes of the people of America, which, if now disappointed, must be succeeded by confusion and gloomy despair.

Mr. White.—I object, sir, to a discrimination. I cannot perceive that difference in the constitution alluded to by the gentlemen. Among the Senators and the people in some of the ancient commonwealths, an artificial and political distinction was established, which was the case at Rome, in particular. There the Senators were considered as possessing some degree of divinity, and the rest of the people were not admitted to associate with them. Can it be supposed that the name of Senators will render those members superior to their fellow-citizens? I cannot see any difference in the general estimation between a Senator and a Representative, however great their sentiments may vary in their respective States; and cannot conceive why any discrimination should be made in their allowances.

The independence of the members of this House may be injured by such a distinction; and the Senate, at some future day, may have it in their power to carry points, and be enabled to prolong the session, when it may be of great inconvenience to the House.

Mr. Madison was of opinion that a discrimination was necessary; he observed, that it had been evidently contemplated by the constitution, to distinguish in favor of the Senate, that men of abilities and firm principles, whom the love and custom of a retired life might render averse to the fatigues of a public one, may be induced to devote the experience of years, and the acquisitions of study, to the service of their country. And unless something of this kind is adopted, it may be difficult to obtain proper characters to fill the Senate, as men of enterprise and genius will naturally prefer a seat in the House, considering it to be a more conspicuous situation.

Mr. Moore did not see the propriety of the discrimination proposed; the business of each House is equal, or if there is a difference in their legislative concerns, it is in favor of the House. He had no idea of giving the public money for such an idle purpose as the support of a fanciful dignity and superiority. His idea of the business was, each member ought to be compensated for his services, and nothing further.

Mr. Vining.—The arguments brought forward by my honorable friend from Virginia, (Mr. Lee,) have not proved satisfactory to my mind, that his favorite opinion with respect to discrimination is right. He has told us that the sages of America will be selected, and placed in this distinguished situation. True, sir, I expect venerable and respectable characters will find their way into every branch of the Government; but when I consider the mode in which the Senate is elected, I apprehend we may have there men whose wealth has created them the influence necessary to get in. If any thing is to be expected by this refined choice, it is that men of rank and opulence will draw the regard of the small and select circle of a State Legislature; while the Representatives in this House, being the choice of their fellow-citizens, among whom rank and dignity are rather unpopular, will consist of men in middling circumstances. Now if any thing is to be drawn from arguments like these, it is in favor of this House. But the whole of this is a subject on which we are better able to decide from our feelings, than from our discussions.

I am against the motion for another reason, sir; it goes to reduce the compensation, which I think is already set too low, to furnish good security for the happy administration of the Government. In considering this subject, there are two important objects necessary to engage the attention of the Legislature. First, that the compensation be not made an object for indigence to pursue; and second, that it be not so low as to throw the business of legislation into the hands of rich and aspiring nabobs, but such as to compensate a man in the middle grade of life. These are generally men of business, who are fittest to conduct the concerns of their fellow-citizens. Now, in compensating this class of men, (for I would have the compensation proportioned to this class,) I do not take into consideration the sacrifices they make, by dedicating their time and abilities to the service of their country; but I confine myself merely to a compensation for their time and services. If the compensation is made an object for indigence, we shall have the sessions protracted to an extreme length, and the expense will be increased; if we make the reward barely commensurate with the services, you will have men of abilities, who will despatch the public business, and return to their private pursuits. If the business is done without pay, it may be productive of the most enormous evils. Were every member of the British House of Commons allowed a thousand guineas a year, they would be less venal; we should not find them purchasing their seats, and selling their votes, for places and pensions. The very money given in this way would furnish a handsome compensation for every member, and add something considerable, annually, to their sinking fund.

I apprehend, in establishing a compensation, we shall put it in the power of gentlemen, while here, to live as independent as they can at home. Perhaps I hazard a conjecture, when I say there is not a gentleman on this floor, I am certain there are not many, but have found, from experience, that six dollars per day is adequate to that object; certainly it cannot be the wish of any man to make the public service unpleasant, by rendering the situation of the members of Congress less eligible than a solitary retirement from patriotic pursuits would be. Any man who lives decently, will find six dollars a day not more than sufficient to defray the expense of a casual residence in a splendid city.

The experiment has been made. If a gentleman keeps a servant and his horses, and means to reciprocate the civilities he receives, I again assert the compensation is inadequate. It is true, we may live for two dollars a day; but how? There is a dignity attached to the situation of a Representative, with respect to his country; and the compensation might be seven or eight dollars per day, without granting the members more than a bare compensation. From all these considerations, I am induced to hope that gentlemen will indulge a little, and rather support an increase, than a diminution of pay.

As to the discrimination, it has been once decided against by a considerable majority; I have no doubt but it will now meet a similar fate; but be the decision of the House what it may, with respect to the quantum, or manner of compensation, I shall never fear to deliver my sentiments. On the present occasion, I wish them known to my constituents, and I am much mistaken if they are not coincident with their own.

Mr. Seney.—I am sorry, sir, that the question of discrimination has been brought before the House. Can any reason be assigned for making this distinction? Are the services of the Senate of more importance than those of the Representatives? I think not. Gentlemen have brought forward the constitution upon this occasion, but I conceive it to be opposite to the very principle they mean to advocate. This will destroy the independence of the several branches, which is to be strictly observed. If a discrimination should be established in favor of the Senate, will it not naturally tend to create a sense of inferiority in the minds of the Representatives? And the time may come when they may find it their interest to become subservient to the views of the Senate. I feel so sensibly, sir, the impropriety and unconstitutionality of this measure, that had I the most distant idea it would comport with the sentiments of a majority of the members of this House, I should call for the yeas and nays on a division of the House upon the question. But as I do not conceive that to be the case, I shall waive the proposition for the present.

Mr. Sedgwick said, that whenever he had a motion to make before the House, he endeavored to satisfy himself of the reasonableness and propriety of it. If he thought it proper, he did not consider the mode of decision that might be adopted of any material consequence; but in determining the present question, he hoped the yeas and nays would not be called. There is a principle in mankind which revolts at the idea of inferiority; a proposition, for example, shall be made, that has for its object the establishment of a superiority (howsoever necessary;) that principle is alarmed and excited to opposition; to discuss such a question as the present, we ought to be divested of every partiality and prejudice, that might bias our judgment in deciding an affair that will not bear the test of reason and experience. I conceive the precedence of the Senate has been clearly pointed out by the Constitution. There are grades in society which are necessary to their very existence. This is a self-evident proposition; it is recognized by every civilized nation, and by the House in the report before us. For what reason have we made a difference between the President and Vice President? Is it not on account of his superior station and his dignity? And between the Vice President and the Senate? This distinction is likewise established by the constitution in the difference of the terms for which the members of the Senate and those of the House of Representatives are chosen. The time for which the Senate is chosen, demonstrates the propriety of a difference being made in the pay they ought to receive; the duties of their office require they should renounce every other avocation; their attention will be wholly taken up in the discharge of public business; therefore they should have an adequate and an independent allowance. The generality of the members being so far advanced in years, will drop every idea of engaging any more in their several professions, after having once engaged in the service of their country. Their age, wisdom, and experience, all warrant this discrimination. He concluded by saying, that the real dignity of the House was, he thought, so far from being diminished by adopting the proposition, that he conceived it was essentially connected with it.

Mr. Stone thought the House ought not to assist in elevating one branch of the Government more above the other than the constitution had done. This had given influence to the Senate by a negative in the cases of treaties and appointments. It had given importance to the House, by vesting them with the sole power of originating money bills. But both these powers could be exercised without a discrimination being made in the pay of the members; therefore he inferred that it was not contemplated by the constitution to make any such distinction.

A discrimination may eventually operate to the public injury; the House of Representatives may be desirous of terminating the session, but the Senate, finding the compensation they receive quite agreeable, may be inclined to protract it. He thought the true way of deciding on this subject, was to make the same allowance to both, and let it be such as not to induce them to protract the session on the one hand, or have a tendency to hurry over the business on the other.

Mr. Jackson said, in reply to the inquiry of Mr. Sedgwick—"Why have we made a difference between the President and the Vice President?" that the whole of the President's time would be taken up in the duties of his station; that the Vice President might retire to his farm whenever he thought proper. We refer, said he, to the wisdom of the Senate; but how is this superior wisdom to be discerned? If on this account a distinction is to be made, it necessarily follows that a difference should be made between the members of this House, and those of the Senate. We cannot be too cautious how we establish an undue pre-eminence, and give an influence and importance to one branch of the Legislature over the other. All governments incline to despotism, as naturally as rivers run into the sea. Despotism makes its way gradually, by slow and imperceptible steps; despotic power is never established all at once; we shall, ere we are aware, get beyond the gulf, and then we shall be astonished how we reached there. The services of the Senate are not more arduous than ours; their proper business is legislation, and I will never consent to any discrimination. If I imagined the question would be determined in favor of discrimination, I would call the yeas and nays, and should it be determined in favor of it, I will still call them on purpose that my constituents may see that I have voted against a measure which I look upon as injurious to the Government.

Mr. Page.—If he thought the discrimination proposed would have the tendency which some gentlemen apprehended, he would be the last man on the floor to support it. He would be as careful as any man how he extended the influence of any part of the Government, or gave it the least inclination towards aristocracy. But he apprehended gentlemen were deceived in their principle—he did not believe the doctrine that money confers importance, and he wished to evince to the world, that money, under this Government would have no such effect. The Senate having more duties to perform, may require a larger pecuniary gratification; but this will not add to their importance. It will require something of this kind to stimulate gentlemen to undertake the service; for his part, he might consent to come here for two years, in order to assist in public business, but no inducement, hardly, could engage him to undertake it for six years. On this consideration, he thought the Senate ought to have annual salaries, and to such an amount as would render their situation independent and eligible.

If gentlemen are afraid of an aristocracy, they ought to be careful not to make the compensation too low, so as to exclude men of middling fortunes; the men of rank and distinguished opulence might serve without any pecuniary compensation; but the Government would not be safe, if it was exclusively in such hands. He wished to discriminate in favor of the Senate, but he would rather increase their pay to eight dollars, than reduce that of the members of this House, while he considered it but a moderate compensation.

The question on Mr. Sedgwick's motion was taken, and lost by a considerable majority.

The House having now gone through the report, it was Ordered, that a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant thereto, and that Messrs. Burke, Stone, and Moore, be a committee to prepare and bring in the same: with instructions to insert a clause or clauses, making provision for a reasonable compensation to the Secretary of the Senate, and Clerk of the House of Representatives, respectively, for their services.

After which the House adjourned.

Wednesday, July 22.

Western Lands.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union, Mr. Boudinot in the chair; and, after some time spent therein, the committee rose and reported that they had had the state of the Union under consideration, and come to a resolution thereupon, which was read and then delivered in at the clerk's table, where the same was twice read, and agreed to by the House, as follows:

Resolved, That an act of Congress ought to pass for establishing a Land Office, and for regulating the terms and manner of granting vacant and unappropriated lands, the property of the United States; that the said office be under the superintendence of the Governor of the Western Territory; that the land to be disposed of be confined to the following limits, viz:

That the tracts or parcels to be disposed of to any one person, shall not exceed —— acres; that the price to be required for the same shall be —— per acre; and that every person actually settled within the said limits shall be entitled to the pre-emption of a quantity not exceeding —— acres, including his settlement.

Ordered, That a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant to the said resolution, and that Mr. Scott, Mr. Sylvester, and Mr. Moore, do prepare and bring in the same.

Thursday, July 23.

Home Department.

On motion of Mr. Vining, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. Boudinot in the chair.

Mr. Vining introduced a resolution for the adoption of the committee, by which it is declared: That an Executive department ought to be established, and to be denominated the Home Department; the head of which to be called the Secretary of the United States for the Home Department; whose duty it shall be to correspond with the several States, and to see to the execution of the laws of the Union; to keep the great seal, and affix the same to all public papers when necessary; to keep the lesser seal, and to affix it to commissions, &c.; to make out commissions, and enregister the same; to keep authentic copies of all public acts, &c., and transmit the same to the several States; to procure the acts of the several States, and report on the same when contrary to the laws of the United States; to take into his custody the archives of the late Congress; to report to the President plans for the protection and improvement of manufactures, agriculture, and commerce; to obtain a geographical account of the several States, their rivers, towns, roads, &c.; to report what post-roads shall be established; to receive and record the census; to receive reports respecting the Western Territory; to receive the models and specimens presented by inventors and authors; to enter all books for which patents are granted; to issue patents, &c.; and, in general, to do and attend to all such matters and things as he may be directed to do by the President.

Mr. Benson objected to some of the duties mentioned in the resolution. He thought the less the Government corresponded with particular States the better, and there could be no necessity for an officer to see to the execution of the laws of the United States, when there was a Judiciary instituted with adequate powers.

Mr. White was not convinced that there was a necessity for establishing a separate department for all or any of the duties contained in the resolution. The correspondence with the States belonged to the Executive. To see to the execution of the laws was the duty of the Judiciary. The great seal might be kept by the Secretary of Foreign Affairs; the lesser seal might be deposited in the same hands. Commissions might be made out by the departments to which the officer is connected. The Secretary of the Senate and Clerk of the House might transmit the public acts, and keep records thereof. What have Congress to do with the acts of States? If they interfere with the constitutional powers of the Government, the Judges will prevent their operation. The papers of the late Congress may be distributed among the officers to which they relate; the rest may be deposited with the officers of Congress. The want of the reports on manufactures, agriculture, and commerce, may be supplied by Congress. The post-roads may be left to the Postmaster General. The census must be returned to Congress, and they will preserve it among their files. And it can hardly be thought necessary to establish a great department for the purpose of receiving the models, specimens, and books presented by authors and inventors. If none of these things are requisite to be done by a great department, why should the United States incur the expense which such an arrangement must necessarily draw along with it.

Mr. Huntington thought the Secretary of Foreign Affairs was not so much overcharged with business but that he might attend to the major part of the duties mentioned in the resolution.

Mr. Vining said, he had waited until the great Executive departments were established; but none of those had embraced the duties contained in his proposition, which he conceived to be of great importance; many of the duties were as essential as those of any other department, except the Treasury. As for their belonging to the Executive, as was said by the gentleman from Virginia, he admitted it; but they were, nevertheless, as proper to be put into the hands of a principal officer under the President, as the War office, or office of Foreign Affairs; the duties of these were especially within the Executive department of the Government. He conceived that the President ought to be relieved from the inferior duties of his station, by officers assigned to attend to them under his inspection; he could then, with a mind free and unembarrassed with the minutiæ of business, attend to the operations of the whole machine.

If the office was admitted to be necessary, and he was certain the performance of the duties were useful and essential, the expense could be no solid objection, because the information it would furnish would more than counterbalance that article.

The question he conceived to be reduced to this, whether a confidential officer would not be more useful than any other, and whether the duties could be distributed among the officers already instituted. For his part, he conceived most of them foreign to either of those officers; and that they could not be performed with advantage any other way than by an officer appointed specially for the purpose. He thought every gentleman would admit that the duties were important, and he assured them that his only reason for bringing the motion forward was, to provide for the public good. He had no personal motives in pressing it; he disclaimed every idea of serving any particular man by the arrangement, and rested it solely upon its merits.

Mr. Sedgwick believed the honorable gentleman in his assertions, that he had no personal motive in pressing this business. He believed that he thought it essential, and if his sentiments were the same, he would join the gentleman in supporting the motion; but after duly considering the subject, he was inclined to believe that the office was unnecessary, and that it would be squandering the public money, at a time when the greatest economy is requisite. He thought the principal part of the duties might be assigned to the Secretary of Foreign Affairs; and he would, if the committee negatived the present motion, introduce another for that purpose.

Mr. Gerry thought the burthens of the people would be sufficiently great in providing the supplies absolutely necessary for the support of the Government; therefore it would be improper to add expenses which might possibly be avoided. The people are viewing the proceedings of Congress with an attentive solicitude, and if they observe that we erect offices for which there is no apparent necessity, they will be apt to think we are providing sinecures for men whom we favor; they will reluctantly pay what is extracted from their earnings to a Government which they think is regardless of economy. They will suspect a further view in the change of Government. They will suppose that we contemplate the establishment of a monarchy, by raising round the Executive a phalanx of such men as must be inclined to favor those of whom they hold their places.

Mr. Vining.—Why do gentlemen say that such an office is unnecessary, when they are forced to admit that all the duties are essential? Or how can they say it is more expensive to establish it in this way than in another? Suppose these duties distributed in the manner which some gentlemen have mentioned, is it not fairly to be presumed that the departments to which any of them are attached, will require an extra pay for these extra services? If so, will there be any economy in this mode of procedure? All that is to be wished for, is to have a confidential person employed, let his salary be what you please: if it is not worth fifteen hundred dollars per annum, let it be five hundred. But it would be better to have a principal to manage the business than to have it consigned to clerks in the other departments.

Mr. Lawrence said that something was necessary to be done with respect to the business brought forward by the honorable gentleman from Delaware. He conceived that an officer of the rolls, or some inferior officer, ought to be appointed to transact the business detailed in the resolution; he did not insist upon making a great department.

Mr. Sedgwick agreed with the gentleman from New York; but, he thought, the business might be thrown into some other department, and save to the Union the expense of the one which the gentleman from Delaware wished to establish, by the name of the Home Department. He thought the resolution proposed altogether so improper, that he hoped the committee would rise.

A desultory conversation arose, whether the committee should decide upon the resolution or not; after which a question was taken on the rising of the committee, and decided in the negative.

Then the question was put on the first part of Mr. Vining's proposition, viz: "That an Executive Department ought to be established, to be denominated the Home Department;" and lost by a considerable majority.

Friday, July 24.

Committee of Ways and Means.

Mr. Fitzsimons.—The finances of America have frequently been mentioned in this House as being very inadequate to the demands. I have ever been of a different opinion, and do believe that the funds of this country, if properly drawn into operation, will be equal to every claim. The estimate of supplies necessary for the current year appears very great from a report on your table, and which report has found its way into the public newspapers. I said on a former occasion, and I repeat it now, notwithstanding what is set forth in the estimate, that a revenue of three millions of dollars in specie, will enable us to provide every supply necessary to support the Government, and pay the interest and instalments on the foreign and domestic debt. If we wish to have more particular information on these points, we ought to appoint a Committee of Ways and Means, to whom, among other things, the estimate of supplies may be referred, and this ought to be done speedily, if we mean to do it this session.

Mr. Gerry said, the estimate reported by a committee was as accurate as possible. From this it appeared, that eight millions of dollars would be necessary for the support of Government, for the interest and instalments becoming due, and for the arrearages already due. He remarked, that we had been already dunned on this subject by foreigners, and that Congress would have to make provision for their payment. If three millions of dollars were employed to this use, it would only be carrying the arrearages into another year; but, as they must be paid at last, he recommended making an immediate exertion as a better way of giving satisfaction than procrastination would be. He thought it best to lay the real situation of this country before the House, and not endeavor to make things appear better than they really are.

With respect to the publication of the estimate in the papers, he knew nothing about it; he admitted that it was such a one as ought not to be published by order of Congress. He approved of the idea of appointing a Committee of Ways and Means, if it were only to ascertain what part of the interest on the debt should be paid, and what of the principal extinguished within the current year, from the funds already provided.

Friday, July 31.

Mr. Scott, from the committee appointed for the purpose, brought in a bill for establishing a Land Office for the Western Territory, which was read and laid on the table.

On motion,

Resolved, That a standing committee be appointed to examine the enrolled bills, and to present the same to the President for his approbation and signature.

Messrs. White and Partridge were accordingly appointed.

Mr. White, of the committee appointed to examine into the measures taken by Congress and the State of Virginia, respecting the lands reserved for the use of the officers and soldiers of said State, &c., brought in a report, which was read and laid on the table.

The House then resumed the consideration of the amendments agreed upon in Committee of the Whole, to the bill for registering and clearing vessels; which being finished, the bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading on Monday next.

A message from the Senate informed the House that they had passed the bill for establishing the Treasury Department, with amendments; to which they desired the concurrence of the House.

Mr. Sedgwick, from the committee appointed for the purpose, brought in a bill to provide for the safe keeping of the acts, records, and great seal of the United States, for the publication, preservation, and authentication of the acts of Congress, &c.; which was read and laid on the table.

Monday, August 3.

A message from the Senate informed the House that they had passed the bill for the establishment of light-houses, beacons, and buoys, with several amendments; to which they desired the concurrence of this House.

The amendments of the Senate were immediately considered and agreed to.

The engrossed bill for regulating the coasting trade was read a third time; and, on motion, recommitted to a Committee of the Whole, to be taken up to-morrow.

The bill for establishing a Land Office for the Western Territory was read a second time, and made the order of the day for Thursday.

The bill to provide for the safe keeping of the acts, records, great seal, &c., was read, and made the order of the day for Friday.

The report of the committee on amendments to the constitution was, on motion of Mr. Madison, made the order of the day for Wednesday sennight.

Mr. Benson made a motion as follows:

Resolved, That a committee be appointed to join with a committee of the Senate to be appointed for the purpose, to consider of and report when it will be convenient and proper that an adjournment of the present session of Congress should take place; and to consider and report such business now before Congress, necessary to be finished before the adjournment, and such as may be conveniently postponed to the next session; and also to consider and report such matters not now before Congress, but which it will be necessary should be considered and determined by Congress before an adjournment.

Tuesday, August 4.

Compensation of Members.

Mr. Burke, from the committee appointed for the purpose, brought in a bill for allowing a compensation to the members of both Houses, and to their respective officers; this bill provides that the compensation shall be as follows, viz:

To each member of the Senate and House, six dollars per day.

The Speaker of the House, twelve dollars per day.

To the Secretary of the Senate, and Clerk of the House, each fifteen hundred dollars a year, and two dollars a day each during the session of the Legislature; one principal clerk to each, at three dollars a day during the session; one engrossing clerk to each, at two dollars a day during the session.

Serjeant-at-arms, three dollars a day during the session.

Doorkeeper to the House and Senate, each seven hundred and thirty dollars a year.

Assistant doorkeepers, during the session, one dollar and fifty cents a day each. This bill was laid on the table.

Wednesday, August 5.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill for allowing compensation to the members of the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States, and to the officers of both Houses, Mr. Boudinot in the chair.

Mr. Goodhue moved to strike out six dollars, as the pay of each member per diem.

Mr. Carroll inquired, if it was not out of order for the committee to alter principles, after they had been settled by the House.

Mr. Page wanted to know whether the gentleman meant to increase or diminish the sum, for he presumed it was not intended to be left a blank altogether; but he hoped the House would do neither. It had been settled, after mature deliberation, at six dollars; the House certainly thought that sum enough, and if it was more, that it would be too much; he was satisfied with this determination, and would adhere to it. Perhaps the gentleman meant to strike out the six dollars, in order to make a discrimination between the members of this House and the Senate; if so, he had better move to increase the compensation of the Senators, and here he would second him, because he thought their services required more.

He would once more mention his fears relative to a small sum. He dreaded the abuse of economy, and was suspicious that a parsimonious provision would throw the Government into the hands of bad men, by which the people might lose every thing they now held dear. He thought few would serve for a smaller sum than he would, and he was confident the allowance was as moderate as any man could expect. Gentlemen who come a great distance are put to considerable expense, and their domestic arrangements destroyed: instead of laying up money by their attendance here, it was almost certain they would spend part of their private estates.

If it is meant that the republic should be provided with good and wholesome laws, a proper provision should be made to bring into the councils of the Union such men as are qualified to secure them well; it is not to be expected that the spirit of patriotism will lead a man into the perpetual habit of making such exertions and sacrifices as are too often necessary in the hour of danger. No man ought to be called into the services of his country, and receive less than will defray the expenses he incurs by performing his duty. If he does, the public affairs, in the time of tranquillity, will get exclusively into the hands of nabobs and aspiring men, who will lay the foundation of aristocracy, and reduce their equals to the capacity of menial servants or slaves.

Mr. Sedgwick seconded the motion for striking out. He had endeavored to view this subject impartially, uninfluenced by any local considerations or circumstances; and under these impressions, he was led to believe, from all the information he had received, whether from abroad, or from an examination in his own mind, of the effects it would produce, that it would be expedient to establish the compensation at a lower sum. He really did not see any solid ground for the apprehensions which his worthy friend from Virginia (Mr. Page) had discovered. He had heard it often said, that if salaries and allowances to public officers were small, you would not be able to command the services of good men; but it was contradicted by the fact. He would instance the late appointments, and ask gentlemen whether they conceived better men could have been procured, if the compensation had been doubled? If it was fair to reason by experience and analogy, he should conclude there would be no difficulty in procuring good and respectable men, to serve in this House, at a less rate than six dollars per day. He had never yet observed that men of small property shrunk from the expense of serving in the councils of their country.

He thought the practice of the States was opposed to so high a compensation; many of the State Legislatures allowed their members a dollar and ten shillings a day, and yet they were served by good men.

He had been informed that it was thought by men of sense and intelligence, that although six dollars might not be too great an allowance for the services of the members of this House, yet, considering the present circumstances of the people, it would be good policy to reduce the same. He inclined to this opinion himself.

Impressed with these ideas, and knowing that it was generally the opinion of the people, that six dollars was more than a moderate compensation to the members of this House, he should support the motion for striking out with a view to reduce the sum.

Mr. Vining said, the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Carroll) had taken the subject up in a proper point of view, by inquiring into the point of order. He begged gentlemen to consider the manner in which the subject had been discussed already—twice in the House, and twice in committee; every decision had been the same; why should the point so often determined be again agitated? It is contrary to all parliamentary proceeding, and the House will never know when principles are settled.

He was certain that six dollars was but a moderate compensation, if a member is to reside at the metropolis of the United States. He would admit that they could live for less, in some more central part of the country; but the gentlemen from the eastward should recollect that a small allowance would be an argument for removing Congress from this city, and when that time arrived, he should consent to a lower sum, but not till then.

Mr. Fitzsimons did not expect to hear the subject discussed again; he thought it unnecessary, because he believed every gentleman would decide more upon his own feelings than upon the arguments that could be adduced; he would, however, just remind the committee, that six dollars was about the average of what the members from the several States had under the late confederation.

Mr. Sedgwick.—According to the observation made by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, it will be deemed insolent to reason on this subject: what I offered before, I brought forward with candor; but shall we be precluded from debate, because a subject has been once discussed? Sir, when I moved, some days ago, to reduce the pay of the members to five dollars, I was rather indifferent about it; but since then, I have been so well convinced of the necessity there is for such a measure, that I cannot decline pressing it once more upon the committee.

Mr. Stone thought the public mind would not be much influenced by the trifling difference between five and six dollars. They pay greater regard to the decisions of the House, on more important subjects. The gentleman from Massachusetts says his correspondents inform him, that the public mind is agitated on this subject; if we are to judge what is the state of the public mind from what our friends say, I should be apt to think the public mind quite unconcerned on the present question; for among all my correspondents, not one has deigned to notice it.

The question was now taken on striking out, and there appeared sixteen in favor of it, and thirty-five against it; so the motion passed in the negative.

Mr. Madison renewed the motion for making a difference in the pay of the members of the Senate and the House of Representatives, which was also lost.

Mr. Goodhue moved to strike out twelve dollars, the pay assigned the Speaker, and insert ten.

Mr. Page hoped his motion would share the fate of the two last; he was certain that twelve dollars was not more than a compensation for the Speaker's services; three times the sum would not induce him to accept such a situation.

Mr. Burke was against the motion, because he thought that twelve dollars was not a reward for the Speaker's labor. The Speaker of the House of Commons in England has an annual salary of £8000 sterling.

Mr. Carroll thought the Chair of the House of Representatives was one of the most important and dignified offices under the Government, and as such ought to be provided for.

This motion was lost by a great majority.

The committee rose and reported progress.

Thursday, August 6.

Compensation of Members.

The House then again went into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill for allowing a compensation to the members of Congress; and after some time spent therein, the committee rose and reported the bill as amended: then the House proceeded to consider the same.

Mr. Thatcher moved to insert five dollars instead of six, as the pay of the members.

Mr. Partridge observed, that money was more valuable now than it had been some years past; if, therefore, six dollars was the average of what the delegates received heretofore, five dollars was now equal to that sum. In short, he was convinced that six dollars was too much, and in justice to his constituents, and his own conscience, he would vote against it, and perpetuate his vote by calling the yeas and nays upon the question.

Mr. Gerry.—I was not present when this subject was last before the House, therefore I cannot say what was understood on this point; but I have seen some account of the debate in the papers, from which I am led to believe, that gentlemen view this matter in a very narrow point of light. It appears to me a question, in which one's popularity is more concerned than any thing else. Gentlemen perhaps suppose that by voting for five instead of six dollars, they will establish such a character for economy and patriotism as will redound to their honor; but I can easily conceive, that men of knowledge and sentiment, yes, our constituents in general, will discover, in a glaring light, the ruinous consequences of such a measure in a very short period. The difference of pay, as it now stands in the bill, and what my colleague has moved for, is one dollar a day, and on this important question the yeas and nays are to be called. For my part, I shall deliver my sentiments freely; I am willing to leave the question to the people to decide; I care not about the pay, and I can assure them I never wish to have a seat in this House again: but I wish to guard against the subversion of the public liberty—against the introduction of pensions—against exposing the Legislature to corruption.

I would have gentlemen consider the principles upon which they are to pay the President, their Judges and themselves; the constitution says, the members of this House and the Senate shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. The President shall receive, at stated times, a compensation for his services, neither to be increased nor diminished; the Judges shall, at stated times, receive for their services a compensation, not to be diminished during their continuance in office; hence it appears that the provision for the three branches is to be made on the same principle, namely a compensation for their services. Now, though it is certainly a little embarrassing that we should have to estimate the value of our own services, yet we are bound to do it, and that upon a fixed principle. It has been said, that the Parliament of Britain receive no pay. This may be the case, but if they examine back, they will find that pay, of a mark per day, was regularly established for them. If we consider the difference of the value of money two or three centuries ago, we shall find this no inconsiderable allowance. But the policy of the British ministry has been, of late, to extend the influence of the Crown; the pay of members has dropped into disuse; but every one knows by what means a majority in Parliament is obtained and secured. Now, such is the extent of these means, that I venture to say, two important members of the House of Commons receive more per annum than the whole compensation given to the members of both Houses of Congress. I leave it to the world to judge, whether the people are likely to be better served by men who receive their wages of the Monarch, and who own themselves the servants of the Crown, or by those who are immediately paid by and dependent upon themselves. While Britain had funds enough to support this plan, they did tolerably well; but when the evil extended itself, and they feared they could no longer continue it without having recourse to other means, they bethought themselves of unconstitutional ones; they were desirous of obtaining a revenue out of this country, and placing upon our establishment men whom they could not provide for at home. This cause lost them America, and this cause will lose them every dependency, where they attempt to play the like game.

From this view, the importance of an independent Legislature may be seen. Will gentlemen then say, that to gratify a thoughtless regard for economy, they will risk the most invaluable part of the Government? If gentlemen say it is justice to their constituents, I am willing to appeal to their tribunal; let them know the reason upon which we act, and I will abide by their determination; but I am against being influenced by an apprehension that the people will disapprove our conduct. I am not afraid of being left out, even if it were thought a disgrace to be left out. I would risk that disgrace rather than agree to an establishment which I am convinced would end in the ruin of the liberties of my fellow-citizens. It would give my heart more satisfaction to fall the victim of popular resentment, than to establish my popularity at the expense of their dearest interest.

As I mentioned before, the principle upon which we fix our own pay must go through the other branches of the Government. Your President ought to be retrenched to 16 or 18,000 dollars; your judges must be kept poor; and I leave gentlemen to consider the happy consequences arising from a dependent and corrupt Judiciary. Your Legislature may be corrupt, and your Executive aspiring; but a firm, independent Judiciary will stop the course of devastation, at least it will shield individuals from rapine and injustice; but remove this security, and tyranny and oppression will rush forward as a flood, and overwhelm the country.

It has been said, that the proposed compensation bears no proportion to the pay of the members of the State Legislatures; let me ask, do members of the State Legislatures forego their business? Do they leave their State and relinquish their occupations? Does the lawyer neglect his client? Does the merchant forego his commerce, or the farmer his agriculture? No, sir, the short period they are in session, and the opportunity of being in the vicinity affords them of going home, even during their sitting, enables them to pursue their other avocations, while performing their duties in the Legislature. But are not gentlemen who come from the most distant parts of the Union, compelled to relinquish every thing to attend here? The representation from the States is so small, that a member can be ill spared at any time; his absence must give him pain, when even that absence is necessary, but cannot be often allowed. In short, I would have the allowance such, as to secure the services of men of abilities in every rank of life; or if that cannot be obtained, I would have all that part of the bill struck out, which relates to a compensation for the services of the members of this House.

Mr. Page said, if gentlemen were satisfied that five dollars per day was enough to compensate them and defray their expenses, because they resided in a part of the Union where every thing was to be procured so much cheaper, they might receive that sum and leave the residue in the Treasury; by this means they would demonstrate their love of economy and disinterestedness.

Mr. Vining thought gentlemen who were satisfied with four or five dollars, might move to amend the clause, so as to make it read "not exceeding six dollars per day," and then they might charge as much less as they deemed prudent.

Mr. Boudinot said, that whatever measures he supported, he did it upon principle, not from a desire of acquiring popularity; he was satisfied that six dollars per day was not extravagant compensation, but considering the situation of the country, and the delicacy of their own situation, he would vote for five dollars, and he thought it sufficient to secure men of ability. He asked the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Gerry) if he expected the paltry consideration of getting a dollar a day more, was to induce men of abilities and integrity to come forward and render their country their services?

He admitted that many gentlemen would find it difficult to bear all their expenses with five dollars a day; but the compensation could not be on a principle of discrimination, and therefore the House could not make particular provision for such gentlemen. Others might think a less sum sufficient, but no discrimination could here take place; it was therefore necessary to accommodate, and upon this principle he hoped the House would agree to five dollars per day; nor would this be any variation from the principle established by the committee who reported the bill. They had taken the pay of the delegates to the late Congress, and struck an average, which was found to be about five dollars and a half; they had reported six, but from the principles he had before mentioned, he thought it better to agree to five.

Mr. Gerry.—The gentleman from Jersey, who was last up, says he does not think six dollars per day more than sufficient; but that he will, from a principle of delicacy, vote for five. I am as great a friend to delicacy as any man, but I would not sacrifice essentials to a false delicacy. It seems, from such sentiments, as if we were afraid to administer a constitution which we are bound to administer. How are those sentiments reconcilable to the oath we have taken? The constitution requires that we shall, by law, compensate the services of the members of both Houses.

It has been said, that money is now more valuable than it was a few years since. I admit the fact, sir, but four dollars per day was better under the old plan of Government than six or eight under this, because a delegate was then engaged for the whole year, but now he is to attend at intervals. Some members were continued several years successively, and consequently found it more advantageous. But this mode of reasoning is fallacious; the question ought to be determined upon its own merits. But if gentlemen are for sacrificing justice and propriety to delicacy, or any other motive, let them come forward and agree to what I mentioned before; let them strike out all that relates to their own compensation; they are called upon by their own arguments to do this.

Mr. Sedgwick did not rise to speak to the question, but merely to reply to some observations that have fallen from the gentlemen who opposed the present motion, particularly his colleague. The want of candor and liberality might render gentlemen unpleasant in their situation; but the consequences arising from such causes, were often still more unpleasant. His colleague had insinuated, in a pointed manner, that the gentlemen who were in favor of a reduction, were actuated by motives not only improper and unworthy of a man of character, but such as appeared base to his mind. It was said, that those who proposed this reduction, did it merely to court popularity. Whether the gentleman, his colleague, who brought forward the motion to-day, sacrificed more at that shrine than his colleague who had opposed it, he left to those to determine who noticed their conduct; but he believed they could never be charged with such meanness. For his own part, if he had sacrificed in this way, as his conduct had always been consistent with his sentiments, it must have been known, and his character would long ere this have been blasted in the manner it would have justly deserved. If he had done it heretofore, he hoped the stigma would not be affixed upon him, for a conduct founded upon the solid and substantial reasons he had advanced when the subject was last before the House.

Mr. Boudinot.—The gentleman from Massachusetts makes me say, that six dollars a day is not too much. I said it was not extravagant, but more than I thought was proper upon due consideration of the circumstances of this country. This is still my opinion, and upon it I shall ground my vote. I believe no gentleman in this House regards his popularity, when set in competition with his duty; my conduct has ever been open, and I leave the world to judge from that what are my principles. I shall therefore take no further notice of what has been said on that subject, but conclude with wishing, for the honor of the House, and the dignity of the gentlemen, that all our debates may be conducted with candor and moderation.

Mr. Ames wished the call for the yeas and nays was withdrawn; because he thought they lost their usefulness by a too frequent use. He was in favor of the motion, but he did not wish to have his name entered on the minutes on that account.

Mr. Partridge said, it was well known he never courted popularity; he never sought a seat in this House, or any other public body; but he insisted upon his right, as a member, to call for the yeas and nays, when he thought the public interest might be benefited by it; however, as the bill was not to be finished to-day, he would waive that call.

The question was taken on Mr. Goodhue's motion, and passed in the negative, by a large majority.

The bill was ordered to be engrossed, and the House adjourned.

Thursday, August 13.

Amendments to the Constitution.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. Boudinot in the chair, and took the amendments under consideration. The first article ran thus: "In the introductory paragraph of the constitution, before the words 'We the people,' add 'Government being intended for the benefit of the people, and the rightful establishment thereof being derived from their authority alone.'"

Mr. Sherman.—I believe, Mr. Chairman, this is not the proper mode of amending the constitution. We ought not to interweave our propositions into the work itself, because it will be destructive of the whole fabric. We might as well endeavor to mix brass, iron, and clay, as to incorporate such heterogeneous articles; the one contradictory to the other. Its absurdity will be discovered by comparing it with a law. Would any legislature endeavor to introduce into a former act a subsequent amendment, and let them stand so connected? When an alteration is made in an act, it is done by way of supplement; the latter act always repealing the former in every specified case of difference.

Besides this, sir, it is questionable whether we have the right to propose amendments in this way. The constitution is the act of the people, and ought to remain entire. But the amendments will be the act of the State Governments. Again, all the authority we possess is derived from that instrument; if we mean to destroy the whole, and establish a new constitution, we remove the basis on which we mean to build. For these reasons, I will move to strike out that paragraph and substitute another.