FIRST CONGRESS.—THIRD SESSION.

PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES

IN

THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, December 6, 1790.

On which day, being the day appointed by adjournment of the two Houses for the meeting of the present session, the following members appeared and took their seats, to wit:

From New Hampshire—Abiel Foster, Nicholas Gilman, and Samuel Livermore.

From Massachusetts—Fisher Ames, Benjamin Goodhue, and George Thatcher.

From Connecticut—Benjamin Huntington, Roger Sherman, and Jonathan Sturges.

From New York—Egbert Benson, William Floyd, John Lawrence, and Peter Sylvester.

From New Jersey—Elias Boudinot, Lambert Cadwalader, and James Schureman.

From Pennsylvania—George Clymer, Tho's Fitzsimons, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, Peter Muhlenberg, and Henry Wynkoop.

From Maryland—Joshua Seney.

From Virginia—John Brown, Samuel Griffin, and James Madison, Junior.

From North Carolina—Timothy Bloodworth and Hugh Williamson.

From South Carolina—William Smith.

From Georgia—Abraham Baldwin.

Which not forming a quorum of the whole number, the House adjourned until to-morrow.

Tuesday, December 7.

Daniel Heister and Thomas Scott, from Pennsylvania; Richard Bland Lee, from Virginia; and Daniel Huger, from South Carolina, appeared and took their seats.

William B. Giles, from Virginia, returned in the place of Theodorick Bland, deceased, also appeared, produced his credentials, and took his seat.

Wednesday, December 8.

Elbridge Gerry and Jonathan Grout, from Massachusetts; Andrew Moore and Alexander White, from Virginia; and Thomas Tudor Tucker, from South Carolina, appeared and took their seats.

A message from the Senate informed the House that they are ready to meet the members of this House in the Senate Chamber, to receive the usual communication from the President of the United States.

Mr. Speaker, attended by the members of this House, then withdrew to the Senate Chamber, for the purpose expressed in the above message.

And being returned, the Speaker laid before the House a copy of the Speech, delivered by the President (which will be found in the proceedings of the Senate),

Which being read, it was, on motion, committed to the consideration of a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.

Thursday, December 9.

James Jackson and George Mathews, from Georgia, appeared and took their seats.

Address to the President.

On motion, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Speech of the President of the United States, Mr. Livermore in the chair.

On motion of Mr. Lawrence, the committee agreed to a resolution, which the committee rose and reported to the House, which was concurred with as follows:

Resolved, that it is the opinion of this committee, that an Address ought to be presented by the House to the President of the United States, in answer to his Speech to both Houses, with assurances that this House will, without delay, proceed to take into consideration the various and important matters recommended to their attention.

And Messrs. Madison, Ames, and Tucker, were appointed to prepare the Address.

Friday, December 10.

George Partridge, from Massachusetts; Jonathan Trumbull and Jeremiah Wadsworth, from Connecticut; Thomas Sinnickson, from New Jersey; and William Smith, from Maryland, appeared and took their seats.

Saturday, December 11.

A translation of the Letter from the President of the Commonalty of Paris, addressed to the Federal Legislature, was read as follows:

Mr. President—Gentlemen:

The news has reached our ears—Franklin is no more!—Franklin, the citizen of the world!—All nations are indebted to him for instruction in every branch of science. They are all bound to participate in the grief occasioned by this common loss. But the Assembly of the Representatives of the Commonalty of our capital, thinking it their duty, in addition to the general mourning, to pay to his memory a further tribute of honor, have ordered, by a public decree, that the virtues and talents of this great philosopher should be perpetuated to distant ages, in a public and solemn Eulogy—the first of the kind ever bestowed by our nation on civic worth.

By order of the Assembly I transmit it to your hands; and, with the most lively sensations of pleasure, embrace the opportunity of paying due homage to a body of men, who not only possess, but are justly entitled to enjoy the sweets of Liberty.

May the approbation of your Assembly attend, as well the present itself, as the fraternal and respectful sentiments with which

I am, Mr. President—Gentlemen, Your most obedient humble servant, BENIERE, Doctor of the Sorbonne, Suppletory Member of the National Assembly, and President of the Commonalty of Paris.

To the President and Congress of the United States.

The letter accompanied twenty-six copies of the Eulogium on Dr. Franklin, delivered by the Abbé Fauchet, pursuant to a decree of that body.

Mr. Boudinot proposed that thirteen copies of the Eulogium be returned to the President of the United States and the Senate; which was done.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) observed, that it would be proper to request the President of the United States to return an answer to the President of the Commonalty of Paris, or that a Joint Committee of the House and Senate should be appointed for the purpose. He was not tenacious of any particular mode, but supposed it highly proper that some notice should be taken of the polite attention shown the Government by the President of the Commonalty of Paris. The business was specially committed to the Speaker.

Agreeably to the order of the day, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, to take into consideration the Address to the President of the United States, in answer to his Speech to both Houses, as reported yesterday. Mr. Livermore in the chair.

The Address was read by the clerk, and then discussed by the committee in paragraphs.

On reading the clause respecting the Western expedition against the Indians,

Mr. Jackson rose and observed, that he was as fully impressed with the importance of an Indian war, and of extending the protection of Government to our defenceless frontiers, as any man whatever, and had no doubt of the necessity of the measures taken to chastise the banditti on the Ohio; but as a Representative from the State of Georgia, he should think himself inexcusable were he not to express his astonishment that no notice is taken in the President's speech of the treaty with the Creek Nation; a treaty which has spread alarm among the people of that State—a treaty by which more than three millions of acres of land, the property of the State of Georgia, guarantied to that State by the Constitution of the United States, are ceded away without any compensation. Mr. J. then adverted to several articles of the treaty, which he said controverted the plainest principles of the constitution, particularly those parts which secure to every citizen the rights of property. He contrasted the present situation of the inhabitants of Georgia, with what it was under the British Government, and said this treaty placed them in a less eligible situation in respect to the Indians.

It had been said, exclaimed he, that there are secret articles in the treaty. Good God! at this early period are there to be secret articles existing between the United States and any other nation under heaven! Treaties by the constitution are to be considered the supreme law of the land; but will Congress permit the laws of the United States, like those of Caligula, to be placed where they cannot be read, and then punish the people for not obeying them? The people will never submit to be bound by secret articles.

[Here the Chairman interrupted Mr. Jackson, by inquiring whether his observations were intended as introductory to any motion on the paragraph just read.]

Mr. J. replied, that it was his intention, at a future day, to introduce a motion, that the President be requested to lay before this House the treaty with the Creek Indians—not excepting the secret articles. He then expatiated on the sufferings of the people of Georgia, and asked, what must be their feelings when they reflect on the preparations made to chastise the Wabash banditti, while the exertions of Congress have not been called forth to their relief. The President sent three Commissioners to Georgia (not one of whom was a citizen of that State). They investigated the truth of her representations, and made a report favorable to her claims, that the lands in dispute were fairly purchased, and as fully obtained as the Confederation, or the nature of the case would admit; but what has been the result? The treaty, so far from recognizing the rights of Georgia, has sacrificed them—the report of the Commissioners does not appear to have been attended to. On the other hand, a savage of the Creeks has been invited and brought to the seat of Government, and there loaded with favors, and caressed in the most extraordinary manner.

He said, he would not at present engross any more of the time of the House, only to give notice that, at a future opportunity, he should move that the President of the United States be requested to lay before the House for their consideration, the treaty with the Creek Indians—not excepting the secret articles.

The paragraph respecting encouraging our own navigation being read,

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) observed, that he did not rise to propose any alterations in the style of the Address; the language was such as might be expected from the acknowledged abilities of the gentleman who drafted it. The paragraph just read, he conceived, pledged the House to take measures in respect to our own navigation, which may, in the issue, prove injurious to the agricultural interests of the United States. At this early period of the session, it appeared extremely improper for the House to commit itself, especially as few, if any of the States, are fully represented on the floor. He was afraid that the mode of expression adopted in the Address would conduce to the exclusion of foreign bottoms altogether. If the opinion of the committee should be adopted by the House, he conceived it would be anticipating a decision to the precluding future discussions of the subject. He foresaw that this paragraph would be called up at some future period, and brought as an argument against any different propositions that might be offered—and thus the question be determined without any debate. He thought the Address went into too minute a consideration of the several parts of the Speech, and could have wished that more general terms had been used. As a substitute for the paragraph under consideration, he moved the following amendment in substance:

"We shall consider with attention the best means of guarding against the embarrassments you mention, and will take such measures as may remove every obstruction to the prosperity of the commerce and agriculture of the United States."

Mr. Williamson observed, that he saw no material difference between the paragraph in the report and the amendment proposed. The mode of expression adopted by the committee is in so general terms, that he hoped it would have met the full approbation of every member of the committee. The President proposes that the commerce of the United States should be relieved from all injurious restrictions; nothing can be more just and reasonable: and this is perfectly compatible with supporting the agricultural interests of the country; the promotion of the former involves that of the latter. He touched on the impositions of Great Britain on our commerce, and observed, that reason and justice point out the propriety of seeking redress. He, however, saw no opposition in the two propositions; but as the obvious design in bringing forward the substitute is to preclude such an inquiry as the exigency of the case seems to require, he hoped it would not be adopted.

Mr. Jackson observed that he had seconded the motion of the gentleman from South Carolina, because he thought there was an obvious difference in the two modes of expression. He then entered into a discussion of the subject generally; and enlarged on the injurious consequences which would result to the Southern States particularly by enhancing the duties on foreign bottoms. He said, that the tonnage was at present so high as to prevent foreigners from becoming our carriers; several instances of this had been mentioned to him from good authority; and while the American shipping was incompetent to the object, and he called on gentlemen to show that it was, the exclusion of foreign ships from our ports must be ruinous to South Carolina and Georgia; therefore, he hoped the amendment would take place.

Mr. Sherman said, that the words in the report appeared to him less exceptionable than those in the proposed amendment, even on the principle supported by the gentleman in favor of the amendment. In the report it was only said, we should consider what means, &c., but the amendment declared we should take effectual measures. The words in the report only binding us to consider—those in the amendment obliging us to act. He thought the answer should be general, and was therefore against the amendment.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) observed, that the member last up had confined his observation to the first words in the paragraph objected to. If he will take the trouble of reading a little further, he will see, that as the report stands, we give it as our opinion, that foreign bottoms ought to be excluded, which would be severely felt by the States of South Carolina and Georgia. We cannot wholly depend upon our own vessels for the exportation of our produce; they are not sufficiently numerous, nor will they be for many years; therefore, let us not at this time, in a hasty manner, declare, that all articles exported shall be carried in our own bottoms. To settle this important question, Mr. S. thought that some time should be given to reflect, and a day fixed for discussion; in the mean time, he thought it improper at this stage of the session, that the opinion of the House should be given.

Mr. Williamson remarked, that the report did not say that we should have no dependence on foreign bottoms; but that we should not depend altogether upon them for the exportation of our produce. He had no idea of excluding foreign bottoms. He was for making provision in case that resource should fail.

Mr. Jackson.—To show the importance of foreign shipping to the Southern States, and the inadequacy of our own to transport their produce, notwithstanding the low duty on American shipping, Mr. J. read a statement of the tonnage duties paid by each, in the State of Georgia, for the same period; the foreign tonnage amounted to eight thousand two hundred and twenty-seven dollars, the American to six hundred and twenty-nine dollars only. This being the fact, he inquired, what could be done with the Southern produce, in case of the exclusion of foreign bottoms? It must rot in the planter's hands. With respect to the amendment's being as positive as the clause in the report, as had been asserted, if this is the case he could see no objection to its being adopted.

Mr. Tucker said, he thought it improper that in an Address on this occasion, the committee should go into a particular detail on every subject; much less commit their judgment without a previous discussion. The President may have maturely considered the subject during the recess, but the committee cannot be supposed to be prepared for a decision. The thinness of the House was a further objection, in his opinion, to entering into a discussion of the question. He was not pleased with the paragraph in the report, as it seemed to imply that nothing had been done for the encouragement of our own navigation, the reverse of which was fact. The posture of affairs in Europe suggested no stronger reasons for giving further encouragement to our own navigation than what was presented last session; the expediency of the measure is not therefore apparent from any change of circumstances. Though he was dissatisfied with the report, the amendment proposed fell short of his wishes. It did not recognize what had been done for the encouragement of American shipping. He would, therefore, propose a substitute by leave of his colleague; which he did to the following purport: "The encouragement of our own navigation has at all times appeared to us highly important, and has employed a large share of our deliberations; we shall continue to pay due attention to the subject, and consider by what means our commerce and agriculture may be best promoted."

Mr. Smith withdrew his motion to admit Mr. Tucker's.

Mr. Seney said, he could not conceive what ground of apprehension there was in the Address, to lead gentlemen to suppose that the opinion of the House would be committed by its adoption. He thought it couched in the most general and unexceptionable terms. The amendment proposed he did not think essentially variant from the paragraph under consideration; but as the original was well expressed, he saw no reason for expunging the clause; it contained an assertion, the truth of which he supposed would not be controverted. As to the objection against going into a detail of particulars, it was fully justified by precedent in the last Address; the gentleman from South Carolina, he will recollect, was on the committee who framed it; that Address more pointedly committed the House than the present.

Mr. Madison thought proper to take some notice of the objections that had been made to the report. There were two modes of proceeding, which might be adopted in drawing up the answer. The first method was generally to declare, that the House would take into their serious consideration the business recommended to their attention by the President. And this, he observed, would be saying nothing, for, as by the constitution it was the President's duty to communicate what matters he judged of importance, so it was undoubtedly that of the House to pay attention to the objects recommended. The second method was, to enter into a detail of the different points mentioned in the President's Address, and in such cases where there was no doubt as to the propriety of measures being taken, assure him, in the answer, that measures would be adopted; and if any thing doubtful occurred, merely promise that the subject would be attended to. This rule the committee had followed in drawing up their report, and as in the business mentioned in the paragraph now before the House, they did not hesitate to believe some measures necessary, they could see no impropriety in assuring him that the best would be adopted. He added, that as it is clear that a war in Europe would, by depriving us of foreign bottoms to export our produce, injure this country; and as wars were doubtful, it was of the utmost importance that the American navy be put on so respectable a footing as not to need foreign aid for the exportation of her produce. He further observed, that the answer returned last session was more full, and went even to give the President assurances that the House would concur in certain points proposed for their consideration in his address. He concluded by remarking, that the amendment proposed was binding on the House quite as much as the paragraph in the report.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) said, it was true those who reported the Address the last session, adverted to particulars; but were cautious in their mode of expression, and adopted ambiguous language to avoid giving an opinion. This would appear by recurring to that Address. The charge of inconsistency on his part was therefore not well founded. Mr. S. read some paragraphs of that Address, and observed that the House was not pledged by the expressions then read; but in the present Address there is an opinion given. It says that we ought not to depend on foreign bottoms, because in case of war we may be deprived of that resource. These declarations originated the objections, and gave rise to the amendment. He proposed, therefore, as gentlemen appear to have no objection to either mode of expression, that they would accommodate for the sake of harmony and unanimity.

The question on the amendment was lost by a considerable majority.

The remainder of the Address was read, and agreed to by the committee. The committee then rose and reported, and the House adopted it unanimously.

A committee was then appointed to wait on the President of the United States, to know at what time and place it would be convenient for him to receive the Address.

The committee having waited on the President, Mr. Madison reported, that the President was pleased to return for answer, that, at two o'clock on Monday next, he would receive the Address at his own house.

Messrs. Williamson and Sherman were added to the committee on the bill to amend the act for promoting the progress of the useful arts.

Mr. Mathews was appointed on the committee on the militia bill, vice Mr. Jackson, who begged leave to decline serving, as his colleague had been heretofore on that business, and must consequently be better acquainted with the subject than he was.

Monday, December 13.

George Leonard from Massachusetts; John Vining, from Delaware; Josiah Parker, from Virginia; John Baptist Ashe, from North Carolina; and Edanus Burke, from South Carolina, appeared and took their seats.

Eulogium on Dr. Franklin.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) introduced the following motion, which was read, and laid on the table:

The House being highly sensible of the polite attention of the Commonalty of Paris, in directing a eulogium to the illustrious memory of Dr. Benjamin Franklin, pronounced before them, to be transmitted to the President and Congress of the United States,

Resolved, That the Speaker communicate the sense of this House in a letter addressed to the President and Commonalty of Paris.

Address to the President.

At two o'clock, the House, preceded by the Sergeant-at-Arms, waited on the President of the United States, at his house where the Speaker delivered the following Address in answer to his Speech to both Houses:

Sir: The Representatives of the people of the United States have taken into consideration your Address to the two Houses at the opening of the present session of Congress.

We share in the satisfaction inspired by the prospects which continue to be so auspicious to our public affairs. The blessings resulting from the smiles of Heaven on our agriculture, the rise of public credit, with the further advantages promised to it, and the fertility of resources which are found so little burdensome to the community, fully authorize our mutual congratulations on the present occasion. Nor can we learn, without an additional gratification, that the energy of the laws for providing adequate revenues have been so honorably seconded by those classes of citizens whose patriotism and probity were more immediately concerned.

The success of the loan, opened in Holland under the disadvantages of the present moment, is the more important, as it not only denotes the confidence already placed in the United States, but as the effects of a judicious application of that aid will still further illustrate the solidity of the foundation on which the public credit rests.

The preparatory steps taken by the State of Virginia, in concert with the District of Kentucky, towards the erection of the latter into a distinct member of the Union, exhibit a liberality mutually honorable to the parties. We shall bestow on this important subject the favorable consideration which it merits, and with the national policy which ought to govern our decision, shall not fail to mingle the affectionate sentiments which are awakened by those expressed in behalf of our fellow-citizens of Kentucky.

Whilst we regret the necessity which has produced offensive hostilities against some of the Indian tribes north-west of the Ohio, we sympathize too much with our Western brethren, not to behold with approbation the watchfulness and vigor which have been exerted by the Executive authority for their protection; and which, we trust, will make the aggressors sensible that it is their interest to merit, by a peaceable behavior, the friendship and humanity which the United States are always ready to extend to them.

The encouragement of our own navigation has at all times appeared to us highly important. The point of view under which you have recommended it to us is strongly enforced by the actual state of things in Europe. It will be incumbent on us to consider in what mode our commerce and agriculture can be best relieved from an injurious dependence on the navigation of other nations, which the frequency of their wars renders a too precarious resource for conveying the productions of our own country to market.

The present state of our trade in the Mediterranean seems not less to demand, and will accordingly receive, the attention which you have recommended.

Having already concurred in establishing a Judiciary system, which opens the doors of justice to all without distinction of persons, it will be our disposition to incorporate every improvement which experience may suggest; and we shall consider, in particular, how far the uniformity which in other cases is found convenient in the administration of the General Government through all the States may be introduced into the forms and rules of executing sentences issuing from the Federal Courts.

The proper regulation of the jurisdiction and functions which may be exercised by Consuls of the United States in foreign countries, with the provisions stipulated to those of His Most Christian Majesty established here, are subjects of too much consequence to the public interest and honor not to partake of our deliberations.

We shall renew our attention to the establishment of the militia and other subjects unfinished at the last session, and shall proceed in them with all the despatch which the magnitude of all, and the difficulty of some of them, will allow.

Nothing has given us more satisfaction than to find that the revenues heretofore established have proved adequate to the purposes to which they were allotted. In extending the provision to the residuary objects, it will be equally our care to secure sufficiency and punctuality in the payments due from the Treasury of the United States. We shall also never lose sight of the policy of diminishing the public debt, as fast as the increase of the public resources will permit; and are particularly sensible of the many considerations which press a resort to the auxiliary resources furnished by the public lands.

In pursuing every branch of the weighty business of the present session, it will be our constant study to direct our deliberations to the public welfare. Whatever our success may be, we can at least answer for the fervent love of our country, which ought to animate our endeavors. In your co-operation, we are sure of a resource which fortifies our hopes that the fruits of the established Government will justify the confidence which has been placed in it, and recommend it more and more to the affection and attachment of our fellow-citizens.

To the foregoing Address the President was pleased to reply:

Gentlemen: The sentiments expressed in your Address are entitled to my particular acknowledgment. Having no object but the good of our country, this testimony of approbation and confidence, from its immediate representatives, must be among my best rewards, as the support of your enlightened patriotism has been among my greatest encouragements. Being persuaded that you will continue to be actuated by the same auspicious principle, I look forward to the happiest consequences from your deliberations during the present session.

GEO. WASHINGTON.

Tuesday, December 14.

Jeremiah Van Rensselaer, from New York, and Thomas Hartley, from Pennsylvania, appeared and took their seats.

Friday, December 17.

John Hathorn, from New York, and John Sevier, from North Carolina, appeared and took their seats.

Benjamin Bourne, a member returned from Rhode Island, produced his credentials, and took his seat.

Monday, December 27.

Public Lands.

The House then went into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. Livermore in the chair.

The report of the Secretary of the Treasury on the establishment of land offices for the disposal of the vacant lands belonging to the United States was taken up; when

Mr. Boudinot offered the following resolution:

Resolved, That it is the sense of the committee that a Land Office be established at the seat of the General Government, under the direction of —— Commissioners.

Mr. Scott wished the House to take a general view of the business before they went into the particulars of the Secretary's report. Upon the whole, he was pleased with the plan drawn up by that officer; one part, however, he objected to—that part of the report which provided for the distribution of the land. He did not approve of setting apart tracts for particular descriptions of purchasers. As an amendment, he offered seven propositions, which he wished, for the present, to lie on the table, and which he proposed to offer as substitutes to different parts of the Secretary's report, as they came before the House. His principal object was to let the tracts which Congress proposed to sell be indiscriminately located.

Mr. Boudinot thought the committee could not then enter into the minutiæ of the business. It was enough to fix the general principles, viz: Whether there shall be a General Land Officer and two subordinates? Whether they shall be under the direction of Commissioners? And whether certain tracts of land should be reserved by Congress for certain purposes? And then to appoint a committee to bring in a bill on those principles, and to take into consideration the minutiæ of the business.

Mr. Scott moved as a substitute his second proposition, that such districts as shall be set apart for sale, shall include the actual settlements, and be left to be indiscriminately located. He said it was improper to set aside different tracts for different modes of location—some in large tracts, others in small lots. He conceived it would be the interest of Government to let every one purchase where he pleased, and as much or as little as he chose. From experience, he knew that those parts were always settled with the most celerity that were not bound down to any of those restrictions. For his part, he could see no good argument in favor of them.

He wished some of the gentlemen who approved of this mode would give him some reasons for preferring it. There could be no fear of individual settlers scattering and losing themselves in the backwoods; there was a sufficient check to prevent it—the Indians would keep them compact much more effectually than any regulations Congress could make. If, after granting certain scattered tracts to individual settlers, a considerable tract, including these, was wanted, he could see no inconvenience in granting it, reserving to the former settlers their rights.

Mr. Williamson rose to give the gentleman last up one reason for opposing indiscriminate location. Hitherto, he owned, much mischief had not arisen from this mode of settlement; but now there were persons rich in securities and cash, ready to take up considerable quantities of land, which, if they were permitted to select here and there, would select every choice tract they could; and those who might not have the same means of purchasing immediately at command, could only obtain the indifferent parcels. Many, he knew, had it in contemplation to do this, if the opportunity offered. He instanced North Carolina as an example of the injurious tendency of this liberty; where many tracts are unsaleable owing to this circumstance. If these tracts were to be purchased by actual settlers, the case would be different; they would only be taken up by persons under the name of actual settlers. Such a practice would be an impediment to such companies of Europeans as might wish to settle among us.

Mr. Scott said he expected the gentleman would have offered more solid objections to his plan, and more forcible arguments in favor of the other. Though the first settlers had the choice of the land, yet he conceived the remaining part would acquire a considerable additional value from the surrounding settlements. As for the European companies who might be tempted to settle among us, he did not contemplate it as an object so desirable. A body of French people settling in that way would preserve their language and manners two thousand years perhaps. This would not be for the true interest of the country; all its inhabitants should, by mutual intercourse, become assimilated, and no name be known but that of Americans.

Mr. Boudinot was against indiscriminate location. He had seen the bad effects of it in the State from which he came. Persons had bought up the low lands, and sold them again to such as absolutely needed a water lot to their farms, at enormous prices. He mentioned another objection to the plan—the tendency it had to create lawsuits. He said more money had been spent at law, in disputes arising from that mode of settlement, in New Jersey, than would have been necessary to purchase all the land of the State. The late Congress, he was informed, had adopted a method to obviate the inconveniences of the former mode—the lands were laid out into a mile square; these were divided into four equal squares, and in that form sold.

Mr. Scott said there were tracts of land which it is impossible to sell, even by offering good parcels with them. Between Philadelphia and his home there were spots which were only intended by nature for the birds and beasts—that could be of no value for cultivation. He could not see much probability that the best land would be picked out. The difficulty of exploring a wild and uncultivated desert opposed a considerable barrier to such attempts.

Mr. Scott's amendment was lost.

Tuesday, December 28.

Land Offices.

The House then went again into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. Boudinot in the chair. The report of the Secretary of the Treasury on the subject of a Land Office being under consideration.

Mr. Scott said, he was ready to give some information relative to the extent of the seven ranges. He produced a map of them, from which it appeared that they included thirty-five lots, each six miles square. The tract is in the shape of a triangle, of which one leg measured about sixty, and the other forty-two—in all, about twelve hundred square miles. His amendment was agreed to.

The next article was agreed to, with a trifling amendment, without debate.

Then the following was read:

"That the price shall be thirty cents per acre, to be paid either in gold or silver, or public securities, computing those which shall bear an immediate interest of six per cent. as at par with gold and silver, and those which shall bear a future or less interest, if any there be, at a proportional value."

Mr. Scott moved that thirty cents should be struck out.

Mr. Sherman was in favor of inserting fifty cents per acre. He said there was every reasonable probability the lands would be worth that sum in a few years.

Mr. Lawrence said, that as the quality of the land would vary, it appeared proper to fix on two prices at which they should be sold, viz: That the price shall not be more than ——, nor less than ——. He submitted the idea to the consideration of the committee.

Mr. Sedgwick preferred the insertion of a sum below which the lands should not be sold.

Mr. Williamson suggested the propriety of making a difference in the price to those who purchase large quantities, from the price to those who purchase small quantities.

The motion for striking out was lost.

Mr. Sedgwick then moved to amend the clause, by inserting "that the price per acre shall not be less than thirty cents."

Mr. Stone objected to the motion. He said the operation of it would be to leave it discretionary with the Surveyors to fix the price of the various tracts. This would be to constitute a tribunal in a measure independent of the Government. He thought the policy of the Government should be to fix on a price, which shall be so reasonable, that persons may feel every inducement to pay it before they take up the lands; for it has been found by experience, that when once a tract of distant country is taken possession of, you never can get any thing more than the settlers are willing to pay. He insisted that it was impracticable to fix the relative value of unlocated lands—it had been repeatedly tried without effect. He asked if any of the States had ever established various rates for their lands? He knew of none.

Mr. Sedgwick answered the inquiry respecting the relative value of lands being ascertained in the several States. He said, that so far as his information extended, which respected only the States of New York, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts, this had invariably been the case. Every man knows there is a most essential difference in the value of lands. Those on navigable rivers may be ten times as valuable as those on the top of a mountain. This every individual is so sensible of, that a difference in the price is constantly made; and why the Government should not make a difference, it is impossible to say. Any man, by casting his eye upon the map, can at once determine that some part of the land is unspeakably more valuable than other parts. He was certain that vesting a discretionary power, in the disposal of the lands, would be productive of the greatest advantage to the United States, and on this principle he could not conceive why the Surveyors should not determine the relative quality, that the United States may stand some chance of getting the value of this property.

Mr. Livermore was in favor of Mr. Sedgwick's motion, and enlarged on the unreasonableness of fixing a particular price.

Mr. Jackson was opposed to investing a discretionary power to determine the price with any persons whatsoever. It had been productive of mischievous consequences in the State of Georgia. He was for fixing a price, and the highest price—the best the land would bear; when that is sold, if the revenue will not bear the price established, it can then be reduced.

Mr. Scott objected to the motion. He stated several difficulties; the principal was, that foreigners would be deterred from adventuring, owing to the uncertainty in the price; for when they arrive in the country to settle, they must purchase, and they will then lie at the mercy of speculators.

Mr. Lawrence.—The people have great dependence on the Western territory as a fund to extinguish their debt; it therefore becomes the duty of the Government to obtain the best price they can for it. The question is, whether we shall fix a price, or adopt the plan proposed by the gentleman from Massachusetts. He was in favor of the latter, and said he doubted not it would be easy to make a discrimination in the relative qualities of the lands. This difference in price may render it worth while for the Commissioners to have the land of a particular district explored. He replied to the objection from the want of integrity in the surveyors. Admitting the full force of the objection, it was probable that the United States would gain by it; at any rate, it would not lose; and it was probable that, to avoid suspicion, if the surveyors should be interested in the tract surveyed, they would give more than thirty cents. With respect to foreigners, after they arrive in this country, they then will be on the same footing with our own citizens. He adverted to the mode which had been adopted by New York—they had sold lands in every way, at a certain price, at auction, and are now selling them at the discretion of Commissioners, at a rate not below a certain sum.

Mr. Stone objected to the mode of leaving the price unfixed, as it would involve a complex system, subjecting the purchasers to great inconvenience, perplexity, and uncertainty. He reprobated the system adopted by New York, and asked the gentleman (Mr. Lawrence) whether New York had not been subjected to great loss and vexation in consequence of the plan they had pursued? He wished the system of New York should be fully understood, in order that the United States may avoid it. He concluded by saying, that he was in favor of fixing a price, and supposed that the Western Territory, sold at thirty cents per acre, would sink the whole of the national debt.

Mr. Lawrence replied to Mr. Stone. He said, that when the State of New York sold their lands at a fixed price, there had been complaints on account of the best tracts being taken up. When they had sold them at auction, the value of the lands had been generally realized in proportion to the quality. With respect to the last mode adopted, the result was not yet known.

Mr. White said, if gentlemen had proposed the amendment to the clause which respects large purchases, he should not have objected to it. He, however, objected to it in the present case, and, in order to show that a fixed price was most eligible for small quantities, he instanced the practice of Lord Fairfax, who had been a great proprietor in Virginia; and also the practice of the first proprietors of Pennsylvania. These sold their lands, good and bad, at one price; their experience for such a length of time, near a century, he thought sufficient to show that mode to be the most eligible. He would not object to fixing that condition to special contract.

Mr. Sedgwick obviated the objection in the first instance, by saying that the officers will be able to determine, with very considerable precision, what will be for the interest of the United States. He said experience had proved that there were no insuperable difficulties in the case.

Mr. Moore observed, that the actual value of the best lands in that territory was about thirty cents per acre. When all of that description is sold, the next will bring the same price; from whence he inferred, that there could be no difficulty or loss attending fixing the price. He stated some difficulties which would result from adopting the mode proposed.

Wednesday, January 5.

Duties on Spirits.

The House, agreeably to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. Boudinot in the chair, and took into consideration the bill repealing, after a certain time, the act laying duties on distilled spirits, &c., and imposing others in their stead.

Mr. Jackson moved to strike out the essential part of the first clause. He stated his objections at large against the principles of the bill, and reprobated the funding system, and an excise in particular, as an auxiliary to it.

The tenor of his observations was to show that this mode of taxation was odious, unequal, unpopular, and oppressive, more particularly in the Southern States; in which he observed its unequal operation would be most sensibly felt, as the citizens of those States have no alternative to adopt by which they can diminish the weight of the tax; no breweries or orchards to furnish a substitute for spirituous liquors; hence they become a necessary article. He contended that they were not only necessary, but salutary in the Southern regions. This, he said, had been acknowledged by an Eastern author, Mr. Morse, an authority which he presumed would not be disputed by the Northern gentlemen, especially when it was considered he was a clergyman. Mr. M. declares that grog is a necessary article of drink in the Southern States.

Mr. J. took notice of the petition of the College of Physicians, which had lately been read in the House on the subject of distilled spirits. He disapproved highly of their interfering in the business. He thought they might with equal propriety interpose their offices to prevent the use of many other articles which were deemed pernicious or of a poisonous quality. He instanced mushrooms; they might petition Congress to pass a law interdicting the use of catsup, because some ignorant persons had been poisoned by eating mushrooms.

Mr. J. then gave a short sketch of the history of excises in England. He said they always had been considered by the people of that country as an odious tax, from the time of Oliver Cromwell to the present day; even Blackstone, a high prerogative lawyer, has reprobated them. He said, he hoped this country would take warning by the experience of the people of Great Britain, and not sacrifice their liberties by wantonly contracting debts which would render it necessary to burden the people by such taxes as would swallow up their privileges. We are, said he, too much in the habit of imitating that country; and I plainly perceive that the time will come when a shirt shall not be washed without an excise. He then expatiated on the unequal operation of excises, and instanced the experience of this State. A few counties, said he, approximate to the capital, have borne the weight of the whole, while the distant parts of the State did not feel the burden; and, by an indication of several particulars, he showed its unequal operation in the Southern States. It will deprive the mass of the people of almost the only luxury they enjoy, that of distilled spirits. He did not see the necessity of passing this law the present session. The amount of the produce of the duties laid last session is not yet known, nor is it yet ascertained whether the citizens will subscribe to the assumption. Let us not lay a tax for a purpose which may never exist; for my part, I hope they never will subscribe. He then adverted to the excess of duties already laid, and the probability of a great increase of that excess; and urged the propriety of waiting at least another quarter to see what that excess may amount to. These observations he enforced by recurring to the recent transactions of the States of Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina; and he expected to hear very shortly that the Assembly of Georgia had expressed similar opinions with the latter States on the business of the assumption. He concluded by expressing a general disapprobation of the various parts of the bill.

Mr. Parker said, he had seconded the motion of the gentleman from Georgia, not because he was more averse to this particular clause than to the subsequent parts of the bill. He exceedingly disliked the several provisions contained in it. He then adverted to the general process of the revenue business the last session; and observing on the conduct of the mercantile interest, to which so much credit had been given, said, he thought they were not entitled to the liberal encomiums which had been bestowed on them for their promptitude in paying the duties, as the certainty and increase of the revenue had served to enhance the value of the public securities, of which it is well known they hold a very considerable portion.

He then touched on the subsequent parts of the bill, which he reprobated as hostile to the liberties of the people, as contrary to the general sentiment; not only as partial and unequal in the mode of assessment, but particularly on account of the mode of collecting the tax. It will, said he, convulse the Government; it will let loose a swarm of harpies, who, under the denomination of revenue officers, will range through the country, prying into every man's house and affairs, and like a Macedonian phalanx bear down all before them. And though the Government has proceeded with a degree of prosperity and success beyond the most sanguine expectations, yet he very much doubted the policy of trying its strength by an experiment of this nature.

Recurring to the actual and probable produce of the duties already laid, he attempted to show that the additional sum of upwards of eight hundred thousand dollars, contemplated to be raised by this bill, is not necessary. He controverted the policy of the measure, and contended that it would, in all probability, rather diminish than increase the revenue of the United States. For the mercantile part of the community, who have been applauded for acting so honorably in making their entries, and paying the impost, will find it for their interest to alter their conduct; they will combine to defeat the excise, which will in its operations bear so unequally on them.

He objected very particularly to the bill on account of its tendency to promote smuggling. Mr. P. said, no man was more heartily disposed than he was to give his approbation to every just measure for supporting the public credit, and doing every thing in his power to support the constitutional operations of the Government; but this mode of raising a revenue he considered as particularly odious to the people; and at the present moment he was not satisfied that such an increase to the public burdens is necessary.

Mr. Stone said, he had no objection to the design of the bill so far as additional revenue was necessary; but the mode of raising it by excise he exceedingly disliked. He had no doubt that other means might be devised; but at present he thought the committee was not sufficiently informed respecting the actual and probable amount of the revenue from the duties already imposed, to determine the necessity of an addition to the revenue. He therefore moved that the committee should rise without any further discussion of the bill at this time, and that a select committee should be appointed to make the necessary previous inquiries upon the subject, and report to the House.

Mr. Fitzsimons observed that there was already on the table a statement from the proper officers of the product of the revenue, from September, 1789, to September, 1790.

This statement was read.

The motion for the committee's rising was put and lost.

The question on Mr. Jackson's motion for striking out the clause was put, and negatived by a great majority.

Thursday, January 6.

Duties on Spirits.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill repealing after the last day of —— next, the act laying duties on distilled spirits, &c., and imposing others in their stead. Mr. Boudinot in the chair.

The twelfth section, which specifies the rates of duties, being read,

Mr. Parker moved that it should be struck out, in order to admit a substitute which should provide for a different mode of raising the requisite additional revenue; the proposition he had in view, he said, was a duty on molasses. This, he observed, would answer every purpose, without being liable to the objections which had been offered against the plan of the bill.

Mr. Madison observed, that he had felt the force of the objections which had been urged against the bill. He was in general principled against excises, but of all excises, that on ardent spirits he considered the least exceptionable. The question now to be determined, he conceived, was this—is an addition to the present amount of the revenue necessary? It had appeared that an addition is necessary; for his own part, he should prefer direct taxation to any excises whatever; but he conceived this would be contrary to the sentiments of a majority of the people of the United States; and he was fully convinced that it was contrary to the opinion of a great majority of the House. If, said he, any mode could be adopted, without having recourse to excises, he would be the last that would give them support; but he conceived there was none, and the plan proposed was divested of the most exceptionable provisions usually connected with an excise system.

Mr. Jackson observed, that his defeat yesterday should not deter him, while he had a monitor within, from rising in his place to do his duty, in opposition to a system unfriendly to the liberties of the people. He said, he was not the first on this floor who had been outvoted by silent majorities; gentlemen of superior abilities had met with similar treatment. He, however, felt so much respect for himself as to suppose that this silence proceeded from an inability to answer the arguments which he had the honor to offer against what he considered a most ruinous and mischievous system of taxation.

He then stated certain particulars respecting the produce of the revenue, to show that so great a sum as is proposed to be raised by excise is unnecessary.

He doubted not other resources of revenue might be explored which would be more palatable; he instanced a tax on salaries, pensions, and lawyers, and in these particulars, he wished that the example of Great Britain might be followed.

He then dilated on the practice of smuggling, which he contended would be promoted by this bill; also the difficulties and opposition which were justly to be expected, by which the dignity of the Government would be insulted. Can this Government, said he, protect its officers from the resentment of any one State in the Union? He reprobated the idea of placing the Government in such a situation.

Mr. Lawrence observed, that he doubted not every gentleman's mind was open to conviction, and he hoped and expected that every question would be treated dispassionately. He did not rise yesterday to answer the gentleman, because he was not impressed with the force of his arguments in the manner the gentleman supposed the House was. He then adverted to the act of the last session, by which the debts of the particular States were assumed. Having taken this debt upon ourselves, the consequence is obvious, nor can we ever get over the dishonor of not making the necessary provision for paying it. He then adverted to the statements which had been submitted to the House by the officer to whom the Union had intrusted the direction of its finances. From these it fully appeared that a much greater deficiency in the revenue existed than some gentlemen appeared willing to allow. If this deficiency exists, and if the United States are bound to make provision for the debts they have assumed to pay, the duties contemplated by the bill appear the most obvious for the Government to recur to. He adverted to the idea of direct taxation, and inquired, on what principle will gentlemen consent to this mode of raising the necessary supplies? Will they make the representation of the several States the rule by which it shall be apportioned? He doubted whether direct taxes on this principle would be agreeable, even to the gentlemen who have mentioned them. He then remarked on the objections to an excise, on account of the mode of collection. He said a rigorous collection would bear hard only on the dishonest, while it would protect the fair trader from bearing an undue proportion of the public burdens.

He observed on the uneasiness which is said to prevail in some of the States; and to obviate the force of these reflections he instanced the harmony and peace that prevailed in those States which bear a much greater proportion of the public burdens than those which complain, as was abundantly evident from the documents in possession of the House.

Mr. Steele stated his objections at large to an excise; he adverted to the particular situation of affairs in some of the Southern States, especially North Carolina. The Assembly of that State had rejected the proposal of taking an oath to support the Constitution of the United States, with scorn; they had also refused to admit Continental prisoners into their jails; and another circumstance more hostile to the General Government than either of the foregoing had taken place, which he forbore to mention. He said such was the present state of the public mind, in various parts of the Union, that he should dread taking any measures which might serve to increase the fermentation which the people are in. An excise he considered of this nature; it would in its operations produce the worst consequences. A more exceptionable mode of taxation he conceived could not be devised. A direct or poll tax, he supposed, would not be so odious; and though, for his own part, he should prefer an excise to either of the former taxes, yet such was the aversion of the people to it, that he should prefer almost any other alternative. He thought other objects might be found from which the necessary revenue could be raised. He instanced duties on inland navigation, law proceedings, legal conveyances, &c.

He then adverted to the operation of an excise, especially in the State of North Carolina, and said that the consumption of ardent spirits in that State was so great that the duty would amount perhaps to ten times as much as in the State of Connecticut. On the whole, he hoped, if the section is not struck out, that the excise will be reduced.

Mr. Sherman observed, that the subject now before the committee was thoroughly discussed the last session; and as nothing new or of weight or importance had been offered the present session against it, he thought it would be a useless waste of the time of the House to go into a particular reply to the objections offered against the bill. This he thought a sufficient answer to the charge of carrying questions by silent majorities.

He then entered into a short consideration of the subject generally, and defended the system from the charges which had been adduced respecting its unequal operation.

Mr. Livermore was in favor of the bill. He said he considered it as an equal and just mode of taxation; and, as such, will be agreeable to the people—they will consider it as drinking down the national debt. So far, said he, as my observations have extended, I have not found a single individual who has objected to it. He then obviated the objections to the bill, which he conceived arose principally from the word excise. He thought the term very improperly applied on the present occasion, for the duty cannot be said to be an excise. He then gave a description of what had been considered in times past as an excise, which, to be sure, is a very unequal tax, inasmuch as it fell on the poor only, who were obliged to purchase in small quantities; while the rich, by storing their cellars, escaped the duty. But this bill provides that the duty shall fall equally on the rich and poor. It is to be paid, or secured, by the importer of foreign spirits, and on the still-head on domestic spirits. This will equalize the burden, and leave no room for complaint. He then adverted to direct taxation; and by a variety of particulars, showed that it was utterly impossible to lay a direct tax that would not prove unjust, unequal, and grievously oppressive.

Mr. Bloodworth spoke against the bill. He dilated largely on the present uneasiness which prevailed in the State of North Carolina. His experience, he said, was directly contrary to that of the gentleman from New Hampshire; the people to the southward universally condemned an excise.

Mr. Sedgwick said, he was unhappy to hear that discontents prevailed in any part of the United States. He could assure gentlemen that he did not contemplate the execution of the laws by military force. He was sure that in no part of the Legislature were entertained designs inimical to the public liberty. In framing the present bill, great attention had been paid to prevent its being attended with those qualities which, in other countries, rendered taxation by excise justly obnoxious to popular resentment. He relied on the good sense and well-informed understandings of the people in every part of America, for the execution of such systems for the support of public credit, and for the diminution of the national debt, as should be devised by the wisdom of their Representatives. For the same purposes, he said, he confided in the patriotism of the gentlemen who came from those districts of country where uneasiness was said to exist. He believed there was indeed considerable deficiency to be provided for, for the support of Government and of the public credit. This belief was founded in his confidence in the information received from the Secretary of the Treasury. But if there was no deficiency, his disposition to support the bill would be the same; for he had never believed that a public debt was a public benefit. Is it not, then, the duty of those to whom the people have delegated the important trust of guarding their prosperity, in a season of profound peace, to liberate them from the burden and pressure of debt? Therefore the only question to be determined is, whether the proposed duties are a proper source from whence we might derive the necessary aids to provide for the payment of the interest, or the diminution of the principal of our debt? He believed that of all the subjects of revenue which were within the power of Congress, none was so proper as the duty on ardent spirits, contemplated by the bill. In this sentiment, he believed he concurred with that of the great body of the people. The several species of taxation may be divided into the four following: by impost; a tax on internal negotiations; direct taxes; and that now under consideration, excise. The impost duties had been extended as far as was, in the opinion of any gentleman, dictated by sound policy. The tax on internal negotiations, which could not be carried on to any considerable extent without the intervention of stamps, was subject to the objection brought against the present bill, and that in a degree incomparably beyond it, of being opposed by public opinion. Direct taxes are still more objectionable on that account, at least in every part of the country to which his knowledge extended. They are of all taxes the most unequal, and in this country would be found the most oppressive. They are unequal, because with whatever exactness they might be apportioned upon capital or income, the only two principles on which an apportionment can be made, they may, and will be, very unequal as to the burden imposed; because a man's ability to pay taxes is not in proportion either to his capital, his property, or his income, but to that part of his income which is over and above his necessary expenses, according to the usual manner of living for persons of his degree in the community. They will be oppressive in this country, because in many of the States the plentiful circulation of money, and the facility of obtaining it, does not extend to the interior parts, nor could it be obtained by many of our citizens without a great sacrifice of property. It may be added, that from the extent of our settlements compared with the number of our citizens, the expense of collection would be immense.

In regard to excises, Mr. S. said, that in all insensible modes of taxation, it should be observed, that a much greater sum would be obtained from an individual than by any mode of direct imposition: this, without entering into a discussion of the reasons upon which it was founded, is demonstrated by fact. He instanced the porters of London, from whom, in the single article of beer, was drawn ten times as much as could be procured by the most rigorous mode of direct taxation. With regard to the proposed duties, though the well-meant consideration of morality which had been urged by some gentlemen weighed but little with him, because he doubted whether it was well founded, yet, if the consumption should be lessened, he did not believe it would be attended with any sensible inconvenience. The consumption, at present, amounts to an enormous quantity; from these considerations, as the measure is dictated by sound policy, he hoped and believed it would be supported by a good degree of unanimity.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) adverted to the funding system, to show that the faith of the United States was pledged to raise a sufficient revenue to discharge the debt, which, by that system, they have engaged to pay. The Secretary's statements point out a deficiency; those statements, he had no doubt, were as accurate as the nature of things would admit. Gentlemen who find fault with the proposed plan do not offer a substitute. He then entered into a defence of the bill, and showed in what respects it differed from the English plan of an excise.

He said, the present bill was not so exceptionable on account of its violating private property as the collection law.

He instanced, in a particular clause of that law, the power of entering houses by warrant from a justice of the peace—trial by jury is secured by this bill, and other provisions friendly to personal rights are added.

Direct taxes are as much objected to by North Carolina as the excise; and though direct taxes are mentioned, no plan is offered.

He then enlarged on the importance of punctuality in paying the interest of the public debt, and of having a surplus revenue in the Treasury. He doubted not the gentlemen in favor of the bill were as patriotic as those who are averse to it. Difference of opinion is to be expected; but he had a better opinion of the good sense of the community than to suppose they would be led away by a sound; they will see and judge for themselves; and when they see that the law is free from all those obnoxious qualities which have been suggested, they will submit to it without complaint, especially when they realize that the tax is equal, and the only effective resource within the present command of the Government. The General Government is authorized to lay excises—North Carolina knew this when she adopted the constitution. The opposition, he suspected, was against the object to which the money is to be appropriated.

Mr. Giles said, the sentiments of the people of the Southern States have been so differently represented from what he conceived to be the state of facts, that, in justice to them he conceived himself bound to take some notice of the observations which had fallen from gentlemen. He then stated certain principles on which taxation should be formed. Taxes should be necessary, and raised on a plan consistent with the principles of liberty. He adverted to the necessity, which, he observed, was abundantly apparent from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury; but he did not confine his opinion to what had fallen from him. He instanced other reasons which would occasion a necessity for replenishing the public Treasury. The expediency of the present mode he argued from the impost's being carried to the utmost; from the approbation of this mode by a majority of the people; and though uneasiness might prevail in some of the Southern States, he considered them as originating altogether from want of due information. Possessed of that information, he could pledge himself to the committee that they would cheerfully acquiesce in whatever the Legislature should decide to be for the general interest.

With respect to the bill's being agreeable to the principles of liberty and republicanism, this would more properly come into view when that part of the bill which designates the mode of collection comes under consideration. At present he would only say, that he had observed with pleasure, that there appeared to be a universal disposition in the members of the House to manifest the most scrupulous attention, in all their deliberations, to the liberties of the people.

On the whole, he had no doubt that, on mature reflection, the people would acquiesce in the present plan, when the honor, security, and peace of the United States appeared to be essentially connected with a further provision for the public exigencies.

Mr. Stone particularly alluded to the statement offered by Mr. Jackson, by which it appears that only the sum of 146,000 dollars was wanting—whereas the Secretary's report calls for the enormous sum of 800,000 dollars. He called on gentlemen to show the errors of the statement offered by the gentleman. It had not been done.

He then adverted to the number of people that would probably be wanted in order to make the duty productive. He believed they would be so numerous as to be sufficient to constitute an army.

Mr. Fitzsimons read an estimate of the actual and probable produce of the present impost and tonnage for the current year, by which it appears there will be a deficiency of upwards of 300,000 dollars; but taking into consideration certain contingencies, which, should they take place, will diminish the amount of the present duties, it appeared that the deficiency would be much larger than the sum mentioned; but even in case of a surplus being produced by this bill, there are objects to which it can be applied highly beneficial to the United States. He instanced sinking the deferred stock, and the three per cents. The reduction of the public debt is an object which ought never to be lost sight of.

Monday, January 10.

Vacancy in the Presidency.

In Committee of the Whole on the bill, declaring what officer, in case of vacancy [by death, removal, or inability] in the offices of President and Vice President, shall act as President, Mr. Boudinot in the chair.

The first clause of the bill was read, which contains a blank to be filled up, designating the person who shall act as President.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) observed that, by the constitution, the vacancy is to be filled with an officer of the United States. This narrows the discussion very much. But he conceived there was a previous question necessary to be determined; and that was, whether the person appointed to supply the vacancy should hold the office during the time for which the President and Vice President were elected, or whether he was to hold the office only till a new election could take place. He thought that, by the constitution, a new election was not to take place till the term for which the President and Vice President had been elected was expired.

He then descanted on the respective offices of the Chief Justice, Secretary of State, and Secretary of the Treasury; and, by several particulars, showed that the appointment would most naturally devolve on the Secretary of State. He accordingly moved that the blank be filled with the words "The Secretary of State."

Mr. Livermore observed, that in considering this question, he thought no reference should be had to the officers which had been mentioned, for, as it was supposed that the case contemplated would not happen once in a hundred years, he conceived that the present characters, who now hold the above offices, would be entirely out of the question. He had in view a different person, and that was the President of the Senate, pro tempore, and moved that the blank be filled with this person.

Mr. White observed, that the constitution says the vacancy shall be filled by an officer of the United States. The President, pro tempore, of the Senate, is not an officer of the United States. Besides, this will give one branch of the Legislature the power of electing a President. This, he conceived, was contrary to the constitution, as both branches have a right to an equal voice in the appointment in this case. This will introduce the very evil intended to be guarded against.

Mr. Williamson said, the motion was directly repugnant to the constitution. Why not choose the Speaker of this House?

Mr. Livermore said, he was well aware of the objections offered by the gentlemen. He could have wished the constitution had pointed out the person. But he conceived that the Senate was the only body that could do this business. If either of the officers mentioned should be the person designated to supply the vacancy, it would be in the power of the Vice President, by virtue of the power of removing officers, absolutely to appoint a successor, without consulting either branch of the Legislature.

Mr. Sherman observed that this matter is left with the Legislature. The whole power of the people, in case of vacancy, devolves on the Legislature. The particular officer is not pointed out; it lies with Congress to say who it shall be. The President of the Senate is an officer of the United States. In case of the death of a Governor and Lieutenant Governor, it is common in the several States, for the oldest councillor to preside. He instanced the case of the abdication of James II. Adverting to the constitution, he showed that the appointment of Vice President, in certain cases, devolves on the Senate. The vacancy may be filled for a longer or shorter time, and this appears to be a question previous in its nature to be determined.

Mr. Sedgwick said he should be in favor of the motion of the gentleman from New Hampshire, if it was not for the express provision in the constitution, which says, the office shall be filled by an officer of the United States. Should the vacancy now happen, there would be no officer of the Senate that could be appointed.

He mentioned that the office of Chief Justice was considered as next to that of President, and therefore on the whole, he considered him as the most proper person to fill the vacancy. He thought the bill respecting the votes for President and Vice President should be first determined. He moved, therefore, that the committee should rise, and take up the next bill.

Mr. Carroll and Mr. Livermore objected to the motion for the committee's rising.

Mr. Madison was also opposed to the motion. He enlarged on the subject, and said he thought it a duty urged by a variety of considerations, important in themselves, and more so, perhaps, in their consequences, that the decision should now be made.

Mr. Smith started a variety of objections to Mr. Livermore's proposition. He thought it unconstitutional, as it would, in its operation, deprive a State of a vote in the Senate.

Mr. Bourne said he seconded the motion for the committee's rising, because he conceived there was other business of more immediate importance to be considered; and he saw no necessity for coming to a decision on this question at the present time.

Mr. Lawrence supposed that the blank could be filled up in the House; he was, therefore, in favor of the committee's rising.

The motion for the committee's rising was negatived.

Mr. Benson was in favor of filling up the blank with the Chief Justice. He observed that the objection arising from the Vice President's having it in his power to name his successor, in case the Secretary of State is inserted, does not apply to the Chief Justice. He is independent of the Executive.

He pointed out several particulars, in which there was an incompatibility in the offices of Secretary of State, and that of President. He observed that the appointment to the Regency, in all countries, is generally of the first law officer.

Mr. Jackson objected to the Chief Justice, and said the Speaker of the House of Representatives was, in his opinion, the next officer in point of dignity to the President and Vice President.

Mr. Madison objected to the Chief Justice, as it would be blending the Judiciary and the Executive. He objected to the President pro tem. of the Senate. He will be a Senator of some particular State, liable to be instructed by the State, and will still hold his office—thus he will hold two offices at once. He adverted to the other objections which had been offered against the Secretary of the State, and showed the compatibility of the two offices.

Mr. Stone stated sundry difficulties respecting all the officers that had been named; but, on the whole, thought there were fewer against the Secretary of State than any other officer that had been mentioned.

Mr. Seney was opposed to coming to any decision at the present time. He thought more important business was before the House. He was not for making any decision that would give umbrage to any officer of the Government. The Secretary of State and the Secretary of the Treasury were equally entitled to public notice.

Mr. Carroll was in favor of coming to a decision; and if nothing more could be offered against the motion for filling up the blank with the Secretary of State, he presumed the committee were ripe for a decision. He referred to the situation of countries who had not, in season, made provision for a Regent, &c.

Mr. Sherman said, he was in favor of the committee's rising and reporting the bill, and leaving the blanks to be filled up in the House.

Mr. White was in favor of filling up the blank in the committee—he saw no reason for a delay. The officers mentioned are as well known now as they will be three days hence. The President and Vice President being in health, is a reason why the subject should now be considered; it can be done with coolness and freedom from all warmth.

Mr. Lawrence said, he thought there was no necessity for precipitating the decision. With respect to every person that has been named, difficulties have been started. The subject is important, and time should be given to deliberate on the several officers that have been named. He hoped, therefore, that the committee would rise and report the bill, and leave the blank to be filled up at another time.

Mr. Burke was in favor of the committee's rising. He observed, that the members in general appeared to be very much undetermined. This is the first day the subject has been under consideration. He hoped the members would not be precipitated to vote on the occasion.

Mr. Carroll said, if the committee should rise, he hoped the bill would not be reported, but that they would sit again.

Mr. Burke said, he hoped the committee would sit again.

The question on the committee's rising and reporting progress, was carried in the affirmative.

Thursday, January 13.

Vacancy in the Presidency.

In Committee of the Whole, on the bill declaring the officer who, in case of vacancy in the offices of President and Vice President, shall exercise the office of President of the United States, Mr. Boudinot in the chair.

The motion for filling up the blank with "the Secretary of State for the time being," was renewed by Mr. Carroll.

Mr. Livermore observed, that the character of the gentleman who fills that office should have no weight in determining the question, because the House was about to provide for a case that might not happen before a number of years were elapsed. The House should fix on the officer who would, from the nature of his office, most naturally succeed. He hoped they would not determine in favor of an officer of their own creating, and of which no mention is made in the constitution. The Chief Justice, he remarked, had been spoken of: one great objection he mentioned against him—the provision which the constitution makes in case the President is impeached, viz: that he should preside. As this was an elective Government, he wished its principles preserved, and not to see the Chief Magistracy filled by an officer not the choice of the people. The President of the Senate pro tem, appeared to him a much fitter officer to fill that station: he was originally chosen by the people to the Senate.

When amendments to the constitution came to be thought of, perhaps it would be proper to provide for this case by a special clause in it, empowering the Electors who had chosen the President and Vice President, in case of vacancy, to meet again, and make another choice; only, however, for the remainder of the four years; because, at the end of that time, the power of choosing the Electors should return to, and be exercised by the several States.

If the motion before the committee was negatived, he gave notice that he would bring in his, viz: to fill up the blank with the person last antecedently chosen President of the Senate.

Mr. Baldwin said, that he should vote for the present motion, because he conceived that the constitution is express, that an officer of the Government, designated either by the law or the constitution, should be appointed to fill this vacancy. He stated some objections against the Chief Justice. He is an officer who ought to be entirely detached from all political agitations whatever—his mind ought to be kept calm and as unembarrassed as possible. He quoted the precedent established in the law instituting the Governor of the Western Territory—there the Secretary is to succeed the Governor. The Secretary of State is an Executive officer, an assistant to the President, and must be supposed, from his situation, to be the most proper person to supply the vacancy.

Mr. Sherman was of opinion, that putting the Chief Magistracy into the hands of a subordinate officer, was by no means proper. As to the observations made by the gentleman last up, on the arrangements in the Government of the Western Territory, he did not think they could be applied to the present case. That Government is a subordinate one, and a kind of legislative power is vested in the Governor of selecting, from the laws and regulations of the different States, such as he thought requisite for the Government of those he had under his care.

He was in favor of giving the supreme Executive, in case of accident, to the President of the Senate. The Government would certainly suffer fewer inconveniences by that arrangement than if the head of a department was put in. The Vice President, by the constitution, succeeds to the President—the President of the Senate to the office of the first; it is therefore very natural that he should also exercise the duties of the second in case of a vacancy.

To designate any officer as possible successor to the President, would be giving him too much dignity, and raising him, in a manner, even above the Legislature.

Mr. Carroll observed, that the vacancy might happen in the recess of the Legislature, or in the absence of the President of the Senate; the Secretary of State would always be at the seat of Government. Besides, the constitution declares the vacancy shall be filled by an officer of the Government. The President of the Senate is only an officer pro tem. If the framers of the constitution had intended the vacancy should be filled by an officer named in it, they could have designated him; but this they had not done; he therefore supposed they had in view some officer not then in existence.

Mr. Gerry regretted that the subject should have been taken up at this moment, when so much important business is before Congress. He adverted to the motion, and said, that the character which now fills the office of Secretary of State undoubtedly possessed the confidence of the Legislature in the fullest manner, and very justly; but when the exigency shall arrive for which we now are about to provide, a character may fill that office who would be a scourge to the Union. Besides, said he, if the office of Vice President was now to be filled, the Secretary of State would be ineligible, coming from the same State with the President. He stated other objections from the constitution. He thought the nomination should not be confined to officers of the United States. He supposed the views of Government may be extended even to officers of the several States. He, however, wished the whole business postponed; but if this idea is overruled, he suggested the propriety of filling the blank with the constitutional clause respecting the highest candidates who are primarily voted for as President and Vice President.

Mr. Smith remarked, that there appeared to be so great a diversity of opinion on the subject before the House, that he doubted the possibility of procuring a majority for either of the motions that had been made. There would be objections, he conceived, to any proposition that could be offered; but the committee should determine on that to which there were fewest. To the Secretary of State he thought there were less than to any other officer proposed. Those against the Chief Justice he thought unanswerable. Indeed, the gentleman who proposed him had not offered any answer to the objections made to that officer.

The duties of the President of the Senate, and those of the President of the United States, appeared to him incompatible. The first was the Representative of a particular State, and bound to obey the instructions of it. If he was to be deprived of his seat in the Senate, his State would lose a vote there, and the balance of that branch of the Legislature would be destroyed.

He recapitulated the objections that had already been made to the Chief Justice's filling the chair. His power of expounding treaties would be improperly mixed with that of making them; that of condemning for offences, with a power of granting reprieves and pardons. Then the Chief Justice could not act with propriety as Commander-in-Chief of the army and navy. It had been said, he observed, that the Judiciary business might go on for some time without the assistance of the Chief Justice. He thought not; there were three Circuit Courts, and two Judges for each, including the Chief Justice. If he was absent, the business of one of the circuits could not proceed; besides, he should preside in the Supreme Court.

He concluded by saying, that the office of Secretary of State and the duties of President were analogous. He was a kind of assistant to the Chief Magistrate, and would, therefore, very properly supply his place; besides, he was always at the seat of Government.

Mr. Burke said, that he had consulted a gentleman skilled in the doctrine of chances, who, after considering the subject, had informed him, that there was an equal chance that such a contingency would not happen more than once in eight hundred and forty years. He hoped, therefore, that the committee would not spend any more time upon the subject, but postpone it altogether.

Mr. Giles conceived, that the probability of the event taking place was much greater than Mr. Burke seemed to think. According to the doctrine of politics, he said, it was not more than fifty to one that it would not happen in two months. However, even if the chance was much less, it was the duty of the House to make provision for the accident before it occurred. If it was left till the case actually took place, it would then be too late to think of remedying the evil; for it was to be provided for by a Legislative act, which could not be made complete without the President's approbation and signature, and could therefore not be obtained when the chair was vacant. Then, if the event should happen before it was provided for, there would be, he conceived, an end to this Government.

He used another argument to urge the necessity of a speedy provision. Suppose, said he, the Vice President should die, then the fate of this Government would remain in the hands of the President, who, by resigning, would destroy its organization, without leaving a constitutional mode of filling the vacancy.

In addition to the loss of this Government, would not every member of the Legislature, he asked, lose his character, credit, and reputation?

Having shown the necessity of making immediate provision for a case of so much importance to the very existence of the Government, Mr. Giles declared he was in favor of filling up the blank with the Secretary of State. He chiefly rested his opinion on the idea, that if the constitution had not intended that the vacancy should be filled by some officer not there mentioned, they would have determined who it should be.

Mr. Sedgwick was sorry that the business had been brought forward, and more so that gentlemen should discover a zeal on the occasion which indicated too much of taking a personal interest in the question.

He did not apprehend the consequences which would follow, if the accident should occur, would be so dreadful as the gentleman last up appeared to think. There was more danger, he conceived, in ruffling men's tempers now, by designating one officer heir apparent (if he might be allowed the expression) to the office of Chief Magistrate.

He objected to filling up the blank with the Secretary of State; it would be putting in the hands of the President (or of the Vice President) a power of appointing his successor. The authority with which the Chief Justice is vested, the respect which his station commands, and his independence, induced him, he said, at first to think him the most proper person to be at the head of affairs, in case of vacancy in the Chief Magistracy. However, if it could not be agreed to postpone the business, he should now vote for the President of the Senate pro tem.

Mr. Benson said, that an honorable gentleman (Mr. Smith) had remarked that he had not attempted to answer the objections which were made to the Chief Justice's being designated to fill the vacancy, and had drawn the conclusion that the objections were unanswerable. He was sensible that there might and would be objections to any officer that could be mentioned; but those against the Chief Justice he did not think unanswerable. It had been objected that there would be an impropriety in his condemning as Chief Justice, and pardoning as President. But something like this is frequently the case. He supposed that whoever exercised the office of Chief Magistrate would for the time resign his first office. He only mentioned this to show that the objections made to the Chief Justice had not been answered because they were deemed unanswerable. But his wish was to see the vacancy filled by an independent officer; he had, therefore, no objection to the President of the Senate pro tem.

Mr. Jackson moved that the consideration of this business be postponed, which was agreed to. The committee rose and reported.

Friday, January 21.

Duty on Spirits.

The House resumed the consideration of the new Revenue Bill.

Mr. Jackson proposed an amendment, by adding a clause to prevent inspectors, or any officers under them, from interfering, either directly or indirectly, in elections, further than giving their own votes, on penalty of forfeiting their offices.

This being seconded,

Mr. Sherman said, he should propose an addition to the amendment, and that was to extend the prohibition to every other person whatever. He supposed that to practise the arts of electioneering would be as criminal in persons in general as in the officers of the revenue; but if any provision is necessary in the case, he thought it might be made in some other bill.

Mr. Livermore approved the motion. These officers, said he, will hold their places under the Government, and, from the duties assigned them, will acquire such a knowledge of persons and characters, as will give them great advantages, and enable them to influence elections to a great degree. He thought the proposition important, and merited the attention of the House.

Mr. Vining observed, that the motion went to disfranchise a great number of citizens of the rights of suffrage. It appeared to him, also, to be unconstitutional, as it will deprive them of speaking and writing their minds; a right of which no law can divest them. He offered some observations on the eligibility of the duty now contemplated, in preference to direct taxes; and then urged the bad policy of rendering the law odious, by fixing a stigma on the officers appointed to execute it.

Mr. Jackson replied to the observations against his motion. He said the experience of Great Britain showed the propriety of the prohibition. He read a section from a law passed in the reign of William and Mary on the subject. A law was found necessary in that country to prevent the interference of excise officers in elections, though the excise law then in existence was only for ten years, and that now before us is a perpetual law; for it is to exist till the whole State debts are extinguished. He denied that it was a disfranchisement of the citizens; they will have the same right to vote at the elections as other citizens; it only goes to defining an offence, which may be of pernicious consequence. Did I consider it as depriving the citizens of the rights of suffrage, I would be the last to vote for it. He adverted particularly to the dangerous influence that some future President would acquire, by virtue of the power which he will possess of removing these officers. He read some clauses from the British Excise Law, to show its resemblance to the law now under consideration. He added some strictures on the bill, and regretted that it had not been recommitted; but to render it less odious and mischievous he strongly urged the necessity of the section he had proposed.

Mr. Benson said, there appeared to him to be an absurdity to say a man shall forfeit an office which he holds during pleasure.

Mr. Gerry objected to the motion, because he thought it did not go far enough; it ought to extend to all other revenue officers. He gave a short account of the nature of civil government; no form, said he, is stationary, they are always verging either to Democracy or Monarchy, or to Aristocracy and Despotism. From hence, he drew an inference favorable to a provision which should tend to abate and lessen the influence of the Executive power in certain cases.

Mr. Ames objected to the motion. He said, the circumstances of this country and Great Britain were not similar. That country is without a constitution; the United States are blessed with one, which defines the rights of the electors and the elected; rights of which they cannot be deprived. The law which the gentleman referred to was not passed till the abuses it was intended to remedy had arisen to an enormous height. If ever there should be a necessity for a similar law in this country, which he by no means expected, it will then be time enough to make the regulation; but this clause will muzzle the mouths of freemen, and take away the use of their reason.

Mr. Bloodworth replied to Mr. Ames. He observed, that corruptions had taken place; elections have been influenced, and human nature being the same, the same evils are to be expected. He thought it would be best to prevent the evil if possible by enacting a law in season, and not wait till the mischief is done.

Mr. Seney was in favor of the clause. He thought it would be a salutary provision, and no infringement on the rights of the people, as it would be optional to accept the offices or not, with this restriction.