FIRST CONGRESS.—FIRST SESSION. (continued 3)

Mr. Ames.—The gentlemen from the southward, who suppose their States most likely to be affected by a discrimination in the tonnage duty, have concluded their arguments with a candor, which I conceive does honor to their patriotism. They declare themselves willing to encourage American shipping and commerce, though they do not join with us in the sum we think necessary to be laid on foreign tonnage to accomplish so important an object. If sufficient encouragement is given, and by our regulation American vessels are put on a footing with foreigners, I think we may flatter ourselves with the prospect of seeing our navigation immediately flourish. We have reason to expect a very considerable addition to our shipping in the course of one year. Experience has convinced us, that 25,000 tons can be built within double that period, by the town of Boston alone. The other ports in Massachusetts can furnish 37,000 tons, New Hampshire a considerable quantity, and if the other States furnish their proportion, we shall soon find ourselves independent of European nations for the transportation of our products. If forty cents at present, and the seventy-five cents in expectation, are thought a sufficient encouragement for the purpose, I shall not object to the motion.

Mr. Fitzsimons.—If it is intended to increase the duty at the expiration of two years, it is certainly proper to reduce it in the interim; but I very much question such policy. The business of ship-building, I conceive, stands at this moment in want of the greatest encouragement in our power to give. If sufficient encouragement is given, at this time, to produce a quantity of shipping adequate to the demand, when we once are in possession of them, the business will stand in need of no further encouragement. If the citizens of the United States were now in possession of a sufficient quantity of shipping, and had the ability to employ them, I conceive they would not stand in need of any encouragement whatever. But this is not the case, and therefore an encouragement is requisite. At the conclusion of the last war we were left without shipping, and from our inability to carry on commerce, by reason of the oppression we were subjected to by foreign powers, the building of vessels has made but slow progress in the several States. Hence it becomes necessary to give encouragement sufficient to induce merchants to vest a greater proportion of their capital in this way. The proposed encouragement is not very high, and even under it, I should not expect a quantity of shipping would be furnished equal to the demand, in less than four or five years. It would be brought forward by slow and gradual degrees; they will continue, year by year, to increase them, until the number is competent to the demand. The business of ship-building being so relaxed, persons of that occupation have turned to other avocations, and some sensible advantage must appear, to induce them to return to their original profession. A proof of this is evidenced by the situation of Philadelphia. Before the Revolution, 5,000 tons of shipping were annually built in that city; last year, the whole tonnage was but 1,300, so much has it declined there. If it revives from its present languishing condition, it must be by great fostering care and protection, and by slow and gradual degrees. It does not appear to me, that fifty cents are more than necessary for its immediate encouragement. Gentlemen will be pleased to recollect that it is always in the power of Congress to increase it.

Gentlemen will recollect, on the article of hemp, immediate encouragement was contended for. It was not opposed by the commercial gentlemen in this House. But without encouragement is given to building and fitting out ships, the demand for hemp will be small; for very little advantage will arise from exporting it: the great market must be furnished by ourselves. Upon the whole, I conclude against the motion, believing our ship-building to need encouragement more at this time than it will at any subsequent period.

Mr. Jackson.—The gentlemen from Massachusetts have, I must own, behaved with liberality. One is willing to reduce the duty to forty cents, another gentleman is more liberal still—he is willing to go lower; but not so the gentlemen from Pennsylvania and Maryland; they are actuated by other principles. They call to my mind a passage of scripture, where a king, by the advice of inexperienced counsellors, declared to his people, "my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, but I will add to your burthens." A steady pursuit of this counsel brought about the separation of his kingdom. These gentlemen want us even to go further. They bring forward calculations upon the moment, and pass them for information,—the mere calculations of yesterday,—and demonstrate thereby the propriety of their measures. They may consider some States of less importance than others, because they do not contribute the same quantity of revenue; but let them remember, the widow's mite is as good as the rich man's coffers; so the mite of Georgia is equal to the revenue of Pennsylvania.

Mr. Burke.—It has been observed, in the former part of the debate, that the people of the Southern States might buy ships, if they did not build them. There are none owned in Carolina: we are destitute both of ships and seamen, and unable to procure them; it would be folly in us, therefore, to burthen them with duties. Though it is true, that there are men there who live in affluence, are rich in lands and servants, yet I believe they are universally in debt. This may be fairly inferred from the laws they have made to favor debtors. It would take twelve years to enable people there to pay their State and private debts; they are therefore very unable to sustain any new burthens, especially when their produce is so fallen in price as not to pay the expense of cultivation. I do not say this is to be attributed to the want of vessels to carry it off, though there may probably be a great want in this respect; and if there is, gentlemen tell you they are unable to make up the deficiency. If this be the case, they ought to be contented with a moderate duty for the present; and as my mind is strongly impressed with the importance of encouraging the American navigation, I shall join them in doing something that may be productive of that effect.

Mr. Madison.—As there is a great diversity of sentiment respecting the policy of the duty, I am very happy to find it is not prescribed by the geographical situation of our country. This evinces that it is merely difference of opinion, and not difference of interest. Gentlemen of the same State differ as much as gentlemen from the extremes of the continent. As no objection is made to giving some encouragement, we ought to endeavor to harmonize upon the quantum. I doubt very much if any proposition that can now be brought forward will coincide with the sentiments of this body more than the one that is before us. I am not anxious to reduce the encouragement too low, nor to throw to a very distant day the advanced rate intended by my modification of the measure; so gentlemen need not apprehend any evil to arise from its adoption.

Gentlemen who are opposed to giving sufficient encouragement to ship-building, ought to recollect an argument that was considered of weight in the case of encouraging manufactures. It is certain that manufactures have been reared up by the fostering care of the State Legislatures, displayed in the shape of protecting duties; but the people, by the adoption of this constitution, have put it out of their power to continue them. The provision for the support of navigation, made by the several States, ought to induce us to suppose even a higher tonnage duty pleasing to them, at least in those States where a higher tonnage duty has been laid. Those States not being able to continue their encouragement, expect that we will attend to their policy, and protect their citizens in the property they were led to acquire under the State regulations. If we disappoint them, they will suffer more than is consistent with good policy. I am not apprehensive that forty cents will be so low as to occasion any discontent.

Mr. Smith, (of South Carolina.)—Gentlemen have endeavored to persuade us, that a high tonnage duty will be beneficial to the Union; but I would as soon be persuaded to throw myself out of a two-story window, as to believe a high tonnage duty was favorable to South Carolina. Gentlemen tell us we are in great want of shipping and a navy—that sufficient encouragement for ship-building must be given before we can expect it; but I think, let the encouragement be what it may, many years will elapse before we have sufficient for the export of our commodities. I know Massachusetts cannot furnish us, because there are adventitious causes to prevent it. The course of the stream in which our navigation has so long flowed, cannot be altered in a day. The debts due from the merchants of that country to the British, will be an insuperable bar. Suppose they should send ships to transport our produce to a foreign market, they have no connections abroad to transact their business, no house in a commercial line to employ in the sales. What are they to bring back in return? They must come in ballast: and will the mere transportation of our crop be a sufficient inducement to engage them to come here? If they had more shipping than they wanted, we should still labor under the same difficulty, and employ foreigners; because the business is unchangeably in their hands, and the very moment the tonnage duty is increased, it will be an inducement to them to raise the price of freight.

Mr. Lawrence.—There have been circumstances mentioned in the course of this debate, which I think may be useful in ascertaining whether the proposed duty of fifty cents on tonnage be too high or not. It appears that there is a duty in Georgia equal to 1s. 8d. sterling; in South Carolina, 1s. 3d. besides something on goods imported in foreign bottoms; in Virginia and Maryland it is much greater. How, then, can gentlemen from those States contend that the proposed duty is so much too high as to occasion the fatal consequences they foretell? When we consider the valuable produce of the Southern States, we are led to believe that the difference of ten cents per ton can make no material difference in the price. Will it materially affect the price of rice or tobacco? Neither of these articles would pay more than five cents per cask, if the duty should be reduced.

The duty, therefore, cannot be fairly said to be too high for the Southern States; it is not contended to be too high for the middle ones; it is not too high for us.

If we consider the subject as it relates to revenue, it will form a material object for our attention; if the duty be considered as a bounty to the maritime States, it will be admitted that it is our interest to increase our navigation.

The regulation proposed by the gentleman from Virginia, to increase the duty to seventy-five cents at the end of two years, may never take effect; before that period arrives, a treaty may be formed with the nation that is our great commercial rival. I am, therefore, in favor of a permanent regulation, rather than one holding out an encouragement that will never take place.

Mr. Jackson.—The gentleman last up thinks the reduction of ten cents will not materially affect the Southern States, yet he supposes it will injure ship-building: how it can hurt one interest by being reduced, and not wound the other by its increase, I do not clearly understand; for my part, I do not see the weight of such arguments.

Mr. Lawrence.—I consider the difference of ten cents to be too small for contention; the arguments of the gentlemen in opposition go as much against a duty of forty cents as against fifty.

Mr. Page.—I have heard all the arguments now brought against this measure, urged over and over again, when a tonnage duty was contended against in the same manner in Virginia. It was then merely a trial, but now we have the arguments resulting from experience in our favor. We find the British shipping still crowding our ports, although the tonnage duty is twice as great as is now proposed; and although the price of produce has fallen within that time, yet I am persuaded it must be attributed to other causes than this. Let the experiment be made with firmness, and I venture to say, it will turn out the same in other States as in ours. I acknowledge the gentlemen's arguments have weight, but they go against any tax whatsoever being laid on tonnage. But experience has demonstrated to us, that such a duty is attended with advantages; it will encourage ship-building, and render us independent for the transportation of our produce. Let, therefore, no suggestions of the kind that have been offered deter us from pursuing, with firmness and decision, the plan adopted by the committee.

Mr. Wadsworth.—If the gentleman who has brought forward this proposition had proposed thirty cents instead of forty, I should have agreed to the motion, because it would have destroyed the discrimination between the vessels of nations in treaty, and those not in treaty with us; but in every other point of view, I should be against a reduction. Foreign vessels will be better circumstanced under a duty of fifty cents, than American free of duty. The charges on foreign bottoms in our ports are very small; there is not, I believe, a vessel of ours that goes to Europe, that does not pay, in light money and other charges, more than fifty cents per ton.

Mr. Madison.—The subject of discrimination is not now within our view; it has been decided by a great majority; I think there were not more than nine members against it. I do not mean, by the arguments that I have urged, to prove that the increase of tonnage has a tendency to raise the price of freight: all my object has been to quiet the apprehensions of gentlemen who hold that opinion. I do not think it will keep away foreign vessels from visiting us, nor increase the burthen on our Southern commerce, so much as has been calculated; and even if it did, the extension of our navigation would be an adequate compensation. The price of freight before the late revolution was higher than it is at present; perhaps it may be lower when ships are furnished in larger quantities.

Mr. Tucker.—I fear the gentlemen who look for a sufficient quantity of shipping to answer the demands of our commerce in so short a space as two years, will find themselves deceived. I think, therefore, it would be improper to lay a high tonnage duty, commencing at that period; if it appears expedient, a future Legislature may give such encouragement, but they are not bound to perform our engagement. After they have seen the effect of the present regulation, they will be better able to judge of what is right in this particular than we can do. I am doubtful whether the measure would place the United States in a better or worse situation than a duty of fifty cents; a commutation of this kind, in order to save ten cents for two years, and admit an addition of twenty-five cents for ever afterwards, appears a doubtful policy. At any rate, the Congress might feel themselves, in some degree, bound to raise the duty to seventy-five cents, when their judgments might tell them it was inexpedient—they will then have cause to complain of our anticipation. I should, I think, rather be in favor of fixing a certain tonnage duty at present, and leave it to the consideration of a future Legislature, whether to increase it or not, according to the circumstances of the case. I think thirty cents as much as can be given, with propriety, at this time; considering the interest of the State I have the honor to represent, I believe it will bear harder on some States than on others, acting partially and not generally. When I speak of the State I represent, I would not be thought actuated by improper motives; I think every gentleman is bound to support, in a proper manner, the interest he is well acquainted with, and believes to be conducive to the general welfare. A great deal has been said respecting the duties that have been laid on tonnage in the Southern States. I begged the attention of the House, on a former occasion, to a striking difference there is in duties imposed by the State, for its own particular advantage, and what are about to be laid for the benefit of the United States. Every duty imposed, I consider as a tax on the inhabitants of South Carolina. If that tax is to bear harder on them than on other States, I pronounce it unequal and unjust. I consider the tax on tonnage in this light; but as I am willing to give encouragement to our navigation, so I shall not oppose a moderate duty on foreign vessels; as I also conceive a discrimination proper between those nations in alliance with us and those with whom we have no treaties subsisting, I am disposed to admit a larger sum than thirty cents: I would propose thirty-five, upon the express condition of reducing the duty already agreed to, to twenty or twenty-five, when a bill shall come forward founded upon the principles now agreed to.

The question was here put on Mr. Madison's motion and lost.

The House then decided upon the original proposition, which being agreed to, it was

Resolved, That there ought to be levied on all vessels entered or cleared in the United States, the duties following, to wit:

On all vessels built within the United States, and belonging wholly to citizens thereof, at the rate of nine cents per ton.

On all vessels not built within the United States, but now belonging wholly to citizens thereof, at the rate of six cents per ton.

On all vessels belonging wholly to the subjects of Powers with whom the United States have formed treaties, or partly to the subjects of such Powers, and partly to citizens of the said States, at the rate of thirty cents per ton.

On all vessels belonging wholly or in part to subjects of other Powers, at the rate of fifty cents per ton.

Provided, That no vessel built within the United States, and belonging to a citizen or citizens thereof, whilst employed in the coasting trade, or in the fisheries, shall pay tonnage more than once in any one year; nor shall any ship or vessel built within the United States pay tonnage on her first voyage.

Provided also, That no vessel be employed in the transportation of the produce or manufactures of the United States or any of them, coastwise, except such vessels shall be built within the United States, and the property of a citizen or citizens thereof.

The same was, on a question put thereupon, agreed to by the House.

Ordered, That a bill or bills be brought in pursuant to the said resolution, and that Mr. Wadsworth, Mr. Heister, and Mr. Seney, do prepare and bring in the same.[22]

Friday, May 8.

The Speaker, attended by the members of the House, withdrew to the room adjoining the Representatives' Chamber, and there presented to the President of the United States the address agreed to on Tuesday last, to which he returned the following answer:

Gentlemen:

Your very affectionate address produces emotions which I know not how to express. I feel that my past endeavors in the service of my country are far overpaid by its goodness; and I fear much that my future ones may not fulfil your kind anticipation. All that I can promise is, that they will be invariably directed by an honest and an ardent zeal; of this resource my heart assures me. For all beyond, I rely on the wisdom and patriotism of those with whom I am to co-operate, and a continuance of the blessings of Heaven on our beloved country.

The Speaker and members being returned into the House:

Mr. Gerry, from the committee appointed, presented, according to order, a bill for collecting duties on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States; and the same was received and read the first time.

Ordered, That the Clerk of this House do procure one hundred copies of the said bill to be printed for the use of the members of this House.

On motion,

Ordered, That the committee appointed on the 29th ultimo, to report an estimate of the supplies requisite for the present year, and of the net produce of the impost, as agreed to by the House, be authorized and instructed to collect early and authentic statements of the particular articles of foreign produce and manufactures annually imported into, and of all the articles exported from, the several States, and the value of such imports and exports; also, the number of vessels, both foreign and domestic, entered and cleared during that time, specifying their tonnage, and the nations to which they respectively belong; specifying, also, the exact numbers of each particular description of vessels of each nation, and the amount of tonnage of each particular vessel.

Duties on Imports.

The House, according to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States.

Mr. Page in the chair.

Mr. Tucker.—As I am desirous of beginning with moderate duties, I deem it proper, at this stage of the business, to offer my reasons in support of this opinion, that if it be the opinion of the committee, we may go uniformly through the list, and make the necessary reduction. I am opposed to high duties, particularly for two reasons: First, because they will tend to introduce and establish a system of smuggling; and, Secondly, because they tend to the oppression of certain citizens and States, in order to promote the benefit of other States and other classes of citizens. I cannot say I have a peculiar aversion to a high duty on distilled spirits; I may, therefore, be suspected of inconsistency in moving to reduce it; but I do it on the principle of a general reduction. If I do not succeed on the first article, I shall despair of succeeding on the others.

It appears to me that if we lay high duties on the importation of goods, a system of smuggling will be adopted before we can possibly make the necessary provision to prevent it. I take it, sir, that proper regulations respecting the collection is all our security against illicit trade. From a variety of circumstances, it appears to me, we shall not only be a long time in completing such a system, but, for want of experience, many of the regulations will be of a dubious propriety. Gentlemen will recollect we have an extensive sea-coast, accessible at a thousand points, and upon all this coast there are but few custom-houses where officers can be stationed to guard the collection of the duties; therefore, we labor under considerably greater disadvantages than a thicker settled country is liable to. I apprehend, if we consider the present state of our population, we shall conclude it impracticable to establish a sufficient number of custom-houses on those parts of the coast most assailable, to render us perfectly secure in the collection of our duties. If it were practicable, the expense would be a formidable objection; it would require more revenue to support such a system than all we shall derive from the impost. But we know in Great Britain where the duties are high, no expense is spared in the collection, yet smuggling is carried on to a very considerable amount; the risk run by this class of people is very great, the penalties are very severe, and the vigilance of the officers renders detection not very improbable. As this is the case, under the administration of a very powerful Government, I apprehend ours, which is only in its infancy, will be unable to prevent it taking place, otherwise than by a system of moderate duties. If we begin with laying them high, there will be an immediate temptation to engage in a system of smuggling, a system of which may soon be formed, so as to render our future efforts ineffectual; it is better to avoid the temptation, than to punish the evil. A man that is disposed to trade fairly, will be brought under the necessity of falling into the same practice, or giving up his business; for the higher the duty, the greater the advantage the smuggler has over the fair trader, being compelled by necessity to engage in a contraband trade, or to forego the means of a livelihood. Smuggling will be no longer dishonorable, no longer difficult, and none will be found opposing the practice; repeated efforts to corrupt will be successful among even the officers of your customs; they at first may resist the temptation, but when they find the practice general, their vigilance will wink at a contraband trade, and smuggling will be considered as a matter of course. They will consider the reward given them for being out of the way as a benefit to which they are entitled. For these reasons, I shall be against a system of high duties, and because I fear there is danger of a system of smuggling being introduced before proper arrangements are made to prevent it; or if we had time to make such arrangements, they must inevitably be ineffectual.

I would observe further, that a high duty not only tends to the encouragement of smuggling, but it likewise raises, in my mind, a scruple respecting the allowance of a drawback, as I conceive every drawback becomes an additional encouragement to smuggling. In many instances, I fear it may be found, that the drawback will amount to more than all the duties paid in the States which are entitled to it. Considering the situation of the States of North Carolina and Rhode Island, which are not in the Union, their contiguity to the other States will increase the facility with which smuggling can be carried on; it will be easy to import articles from Europe and the West Indies into their ports, and send them by land, or even water to the adjacent States. When these are smuggled into the United States, they may be re-exported and entitled to receive a drawback, although the revenue was not collected upon the importation. If we agree to moderate duties it will be much easier to regulate our system on this head; if our revenue is found not to be quite so productive as gentlemen calculate upon a system of higher duties, which, by the by, appears to me to be very unlikely, we shall be better able to judge what we can do after a trial, than we can possibly at present; at any rate, it will be but a small loss; whereas, by a large scale, we may throw the whole Union into confusion, and there will be no remedy by which we can recover what we have now in our power; for a reduction of duties, when they are once laid, is productive of the most serious consequences. Having, therefore, a strong impression upon my mind, that we hazard a great deal in imposing high duties in the first instance, I should not have been satisfied with having done my duty, if I had not stated my doubts and difficulties to the committee; but having done this, I shall content myself with their decision, be it what it may.

On motion, the further reading of the bill was postponed—adjourned.

Saturday, May 9.

Jeremiah Van Rensselaer, from New York, appeared and took his seat.

The following communications were received from the Senate by Mr. Otis, their Secretary:

Mr. Speaker: The Senate have disagreed to the report of a committee appointed to determine what style or titles it will be proper to annex to the office of President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the constitution; and have appointed a committee to consider and report under what title it will be proper for the President of the United States in future to be addressed, and confer thereon with such committee as this House may appoint for that purpose. The Senate have also appointed a committee to view and report how the rooms in the City Hall shall be appropriated, and to confer with any committee this House may appoint for that purpose.

Duties on Imports.

The House, according to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States. Mr. Page in the chair.

Mr. Tucker.—The observations I made yesterday were intended to apply generally against a system of high duties. As to the particular article of spirits, I have no objection to a high duty being laid upon it, provided it can be strictly collected; for I do not wish to give encouragement to the consumption of that article, though, I fear, no duty we can lay will tend much to discourage it. I thought that if it was the general opinion of the House to lessen the duties, it would be a saving of time to discuss it on a motion to reduce the first article. I repeat the observation, that high duties are improper, because they are impolitic, and likely to defeat the object of revenue: less will be collected on them than on moderate ones. If it be considered as an encouragement to manufactures to lay heavy duties on enumerated articles, it is a tax on one part for the emolument of another. Five per cent. upon all articles imported would raise a considerable revenue, and be a sufficient encouragement to manufactures, especially if we add to this five per cent. the expense of freight and other charges of importation on foreign goods. The five per cent. in the bill is to be collected on the value of the goods at the time and place of importation; the value of goods within the United States is twenty-five per cent. more than they cost in Europe; adding this therefore to the other advantages, and it will be a considerable encouragement; but, besides all this, there are many articles made here as cheap, and cheaper than they can be imported. Gentlemen, who have given us this information, know the fact to be so in their respective States; in them, therefore, the operation of the measure would be just and politic, but it does not apply with the same force as it respects South Carolina and some other States. Although in Boston and Philadelphia they can manufacture certain wares cheaper than they can import them, yet they are not brought at the same price to Charleston: hence the operation is unequal and a partial tax upon us. Another thing to be considered is, even if these articles could be furnished us at home as cheap as we get them from abroad, whether we should have equal advantages? If a cargo of nails were to be sent to Carolina, I would be glad to know how we are to purchase it? Would the makers of shoes be content to go there and retail them? If they would, they might be brought there; but I apprehend, if they have not established connections in that country, they could never be disposed of. Can they expect the planters to come in a body, and take off their goods upon their arrival? It is not even expected that they could; it must be left to them to judge, whether they do not purchase them in a better way, by taking them upon credit, and paying for them in their crop. Gentlemen will not pretend to say that we do not know our own interest, and therefore they will teach us. These reasons will not go down with the people; they will take to themselves the right of judging what is most conducive to their interests. Gentlemen cannot argue from the fact, that we do not consume the articles made within their States, as readily and willingly, as those imported from abroad, merely because we do not wish to encourage them. Facts prove the direct contrary: we have shown a disposition to encourage articles from their States which can be made in our State in great abundance. I will mention a few of them, although it may appear disgraceful for South Carolina to take from any country what she can furnish herself. We have imported to the city of Charleston vegetables for table use, which we can raise as well as any part of the world; yet no complaint was made by the agricultural interest of that State, that we imported foreign productions to their prejudice; no duty was imposed to discourage the use of them; all we considered was, whether they came cheaper when brought from abroad than when raised at home, concluding the cheapest to be the best.

On the same principles that are now urged, our citizens might have contended that we should impose a duty on all articles which could be produced at home. No imposition on the importation was laid in order to encourage the productions of our country; the same principle ought to have induced us to lay a duty on the importation of flour. We make but little of that; our constituents consume rice in place of it. It might have been said that a heavy duty should have been laid in order to prevent the interference with our staple commodity. The planters should have said, we will compel you to eat rice, and after being some time in the habit you will find you will like it as well as we; indeed, this argument might be extended to a measure calculated to oblige the other States to use rice in their daily food. It might be said, that it was necessary in order to give encouragement to the productions of the Southern States, but I believe such arguments would have had no weight if they had been used; yet they are similar to what have been brought forward by gentlemen for the encouragement of domestic manufactures.

Mr. Speaker, if gentlemen are content with moderate duties, we are willing to agree to them and give every reasonable encouragement in our power, but we cannot consent to very great oppression. I once more wish that gentlemen will consider great duties as imposing a heavier burthen upon the Southern States, as they import more, the other less; and the sum we pay towards the revenue must be in proportion to our importation. I therefore move, in order to begin with the first article, that distilled spirits be reduced six cents per gallon.

Mr. Jackson seconded this motion, and would assign his reasons for it, but they had been so fully stated by the honorable mover.

Mr. Ames.—I wish the committee may consider, with the attention the subject demands, whether the duties are too high or not? It is hardly possible, I own, to contemplate this subject as a practical question. We shall find it necessary to consider attentively, before we proceed any further, what the objects of our Government are; and, having discovered them, we are to consider whether the proposed measure will answer the purposes intended. I believe in every point of view that we can possibly consider it, the subject of revenue will be thought to be one of the primary objects to which the power of Government extends. It has long been apprehended, that an ill administration of the new constitution was more to be feared, as inimical to the liberties of the people, than any hostility from the principles of the constitution. Of all the operations of Government, those which concern taxation are the most delicate as well as the most important. This observation applies to all governments. Revenue is the soul of Government, and if such a soul had not been breathed into our body politic it would have been a lifeless carcass, fit only to be buried. I would wish this soul might be actuated by rational principles, that, in establishing a revenue system, we might go on a superior principle to that which has heretofore been the governing principle in the United States; that we might consider what was most adequate to the object. The nature of the revenue system in this Government is to the last degree important; for want of the soul, the late Government was found utterly incapable of invigorating and protecting industry, or securing the Union; therefore these seem to be the great objects which we are to accomplish. I consider the present question as a direct application to the principles of the constitution; it will either support or destroy them. If the revenue system should fall with oppressive weight on the people, if it shall injure some in their dearest interests, it will shake the foundation of the Government. However the newspapers may stand your friends, and trumpet forth panegyrics on the new constitution, if your administration does not give satisfaction, you will find all ineffectual that they can do, whilst the people are against you. This being admitted, the Government will not push their regulations too far; they will consider the weaknesses and prejudices of the individual members of the Union. When they lay a tax, they will consider how far it is agreeable to them, and how far the measure is wise in itself. If it is said the article to be taxed is a luxury, and the Government is zealous to correct the vice, they will be careful they do not do it in too severe a manner; the principle would be capable of great expansion: all the enjoyments of social life are luxuries, and, as objects of revenue, we ought to set a price on the enjoyment, without suppressing their use altogether. Neither ought we to consider what the article in this point of view is able to pay, so much as what we may reasonably expect to collect from it.

Mr. Madison.—The right understanding of this subject is of great importance. The discussion has been drawn out to a very considerable length on former occasions. The chain of ideas on which the subject is suspended, is not very long, nor consists of many links. The present constitution was framed to supply the defects of the one that has preceded it. The great and material defects of it are well known to have arisen from its inability to provide for the demands of justice and security of the Union. To supply those defects, we are bound to fulfil the public engagements; expectation is anxiously waiting the result of our deliberations; it cannot be satisfied without a sufficient revenue to accomplish its purposes. We cannot obtain the money any other way but by taxation. Among the various objects of this nature, an impost on merchandise imported is preferable to all others, and among the long list of articles included in the bill, there is not one more proper for the purpose than the article under consideration. The public sentiment has strongly pointed it out as an object of revenue. I conceive, therefore, that it will be our duty to draw from this source all the money that it is capable of yielding. I am sure that it will not exceed our wants, nor extend to the injury of our commerce. How far the powers of Government are capable of going on this occasion, is matter of opinion; we have had no direct experiment of what can be done under the energy and popularity of the new system; we must recur to other sources for information, and then, unless the circumstances are alike, the comparison may not be true. We have been referred to the experience of other nations; if that is to guide us on this subject, I am sure we shall find precedents for going much farther than is now proposed. If I do not mistake the calculations that I have seen of duties on importation, they amount to more on an average than fifteen per cent.; the duty on ardent spirits in all nations exceeds what is in contemplation to be laid in the United States. I am sensible that the means which are used by those nations to insure the collection, would be odious and improper in this country; but I believe the means which this country is capable of using, without exciting complaint or incurring too much expense, would be as adequate to secure a duty of fifteen per cent. as the powers of any other nation could be to obtain ninety or one hundred per cent. I pay great respect to the opinions of mercantile gentlemen, and am willing to concede much to them, so far as their opinions are regulated by experience; but if I am to be guided by this information, it will not lead me to agree to the reduction of the duties in the manner contended for. It is said, that if we reduce at all, we must go through the whole. Now I doubt whether the duty on the article of rum exceeds that proportion which pervades the long list before us. It does not amount to more than thirty per cent., while some other articles stand at forty; some articles again that are not enumerated, but which fall within the general mass at five per cent., are more likely to be introduced clandestinely than this article, if it stood at fifty per cent. I am sure, if we reduce the whole system in the manner now proposed, all the duty we shall be able to collect will be very incompetent to what the public necessities demand. We must turn our eyes, then, to some other source that will fill up the deficiency. There are but two objects to which in this dilemma we can have recourse—direct taxation and excises. Direct taxation is not contemplated by any gentleman on this floor, nor are our constituents prepared for such a system of revenue; they expect it will not be applied to, until it is found that sufficient funds cannot be obtained in any other way. Excises would give particular disgust in some States, therefore gentlemen will not make up the deficiency from that quarter. I think, upon the whole, it is better to try what will be produced by a plan which is favored by the public sentiment. This will give a support to our laws equal to the greatest energy of a strong execution. The citizens of America know that their individual interest is connected with the public. We shall then have the strong motive of interest acting in favor of the Government in a peculiar manner. But I am not inclined to trust too much to this security. I would take in the aid of the best regulations in our power to provide; these acting in concert, would give a moral certainty to the faithful collection of the revenue. But if gentlemen, notwithstanding, will persist in contending against such a system, and cannot offer us a substitute, we must fail of the primary object for which the Government was created. If upon experience we find that the duties cannot be safely collected, it may be proper to reduce them; but if we set them too low in the first instance, and they do not yield a sufficiency to answer the just demands of the public creditors and the expenses of Government, the public reputation must suffer.

Mr. Bland.—I join with the gentlemen who are disposed to lower the duties. Although I feel the necessity we are under of raising revenue as much as any other gentleman possibly can, yet I think we ought to deliberate fully upon the means before we adopt them. It is demonstrable, nay it is self-evident, that laying high duties, in the first instance, will beget smuggling, and I fear our regulations, respecting the collection, will prove the impracticability of defeating the practice. But when we come to consider the subject in another point of view, I trust such a system will be found unnecessary. The enumerated articles in this bill are very numerous; they are taxed from fifty per cent. downwards; the general mass pays five per cent. The calculations made by the late Congress, who no doubt maturely considered the subject, found a list of eight articles only, and those at one-fourth or one-fifth of the rate now proposed, would produce a revenue of nine hundred and fifteen thousand six hundred and fifty-six dollars annually.

When we add to this calculation a circumstance of notoriety, the increase of our importation, we shall find that we levy, or mean to levy, greater sums than the public necessities require. There will not be found specie enough within the United States to pay the duties: four times the rate of what the former Congress recommended, will produce three millions six hundred thousand dollars. The enumeration is four times as great also; hence we may infer, that the amount will reach thirteen or fourteen millions. At least we shall be convinced that we are upon too high a scale. But where is the necessity of raising the impost to this degree? There are other means of revenue, and such as will not give disgust. We have already proposed a duty on tonnage; there is the post-office, and some other things which the ingenuity of Government can devise and is entitled to, for the purpose of revenue; if it is therefore unnecessary to levy such oppressive taxes, what other pretext can be set up for adopting the system? Independent of every other consideration, this ought to induce us to lower them. But there are other and weighty considerations; but as they have been well urged by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Ames,) I shall not touch upon them. It is said, that it is merely matter of opinion whether they are too high or not; if so, let us be careful not to venture too far on such ground. It will be much better to reduce it in the manner proposed by the gentleman from South Carolina, and increase it hereafter, than strain the measure too high at present.

Mr. Sherman.—After this subject had been debated in a Committee of the Whole, and then in the House upon the report, and every argument that could be thought of had been urged, both on the general and particular amount of the duties proposed, and the probable effects of a deduction, I did not expect to have heard the same debate take place again. Gentlemen have a large field to display their abilities in, but I do not think it contains any new matter that will induce a single gentleman to alter his opinion on the subject. The great object is to raise a sum of money adequate to supply our wants; and let us dispute as we will about the mode, the fact is it must be raised. The people have sent their representatives here for this purpose; it is for their benefit that we raise the money, and not for any peculiar advantage to ourselves; the objects are to pay the debts, and to provide for the general welfare of the community. The first of these objects I take to be, that we pay our debts. There are very many meritorious characters who furnished us with essentials in the hour of imminent danger, who, from the imbecility of our former Government, have not been able to get even the interest of what they loaned us. I believe it is the first wish of the people throughout the United States to do justice to the public creditors, and to do it in such a manner, that each may contribute an equal part according to his abilities. We have very considerable arrearages due on this account, upon not only the domestic but foreign debt; there are several instalments not yet discharged, and considerable of the interest not yet paid. No statement can be made of the expenses of Government, so as to ascertain what quantity of revenue will be demanded on that head, but saying that they will be much the same under this Government as the former, and we shall have occasion for a very considerable sum to defray the expenses. I believe we are not able to make a very accurate calculation of what the system, proposed in the bill, will yield. The late Congress contemplated a million of dollars from this source, which, in aid of the requisition, they supposed sufficient for the purpose of paying the instalments of the national debt and interest; but that sum alone will now be found very short of what is wanted without the aid of direct taxes. It is very material that we lay the burthen as equal as possible, in whatever mode we pursue to obtain revenue: a great deal of care has been taken in distributing the proportion with equity; I apprehend, therefore, that we shall not be able to make it much more equitable by any alteration than it is at present. I think, also, that the people will pay more freely a duty of this nature than they will in direct taxes. If gentlemen prevail in getting the duties lowered to what the late Congress proposed, they will find themselves obliged to have recourse to direct taxation for a million and a half, or two millions of dollars. It then only remains for us to consider, whether it will be more agreeable to the people to reduce the impost in this manner, and raise the deficiency by direct taxes. If these duties are to be considered as a tax on the trading part of the community alone, they are improper; but this I believe is not the case; the consumer pays them eventually, and they pay no more than they choose, because they have it in their power to determine the quantity of taxable articles they will use. A tax left to be paid at discretion must be more agreeable than any other. The merchant considers that part of his capital applied to the payment of the duties the same as if employed in trade, and gets the same profit upon it as on the original cost of the commodity.

Mr. White.—When this system first came before the committee, I was opposed to enter into an enumeration, because I supposed much time would be taken up in the discussion, which would be an absolute loss of revenue, perhaps to a greater amount than the difference between the duties of such a system and the one proposed by the late Congress; but as it was thought proper by the committee to proceed in the way that we have done, it would be presumption in me to say, that the duty on every article has been perfectly digested and properly laid, but I believe every article stands as well as can be upon the information we are in possession of. I believe very few, if any, of the articles can be disapproved of.

Mr. Ames.—The gentleman from Pennsylvania set out with informing us that nothing new had or could be offered on the subject, yet you found, Mr. Chairman, the gentleman had a good deal to say, which I thought new and much to the purpose. As to applying the observation to myself, in common with the advocates for low duties, I shall decline it, only noting that the long discussion which the subject has had, would restrain me from rising on this occasion, more than any remarks of the nature made by the gentlemen from Pennsylvania and Connecticut; but I am actuated by higher motives than a regard to my own feelings, otherwise I should come reluctantly forward to press arguments which the committee may be fatigued with listening to. But I feel such strong impressions on my mind, with regard to the effects our impost law is likely to produce, that I cannot pass it over with a silent vote. I must admonish gentlemen, that the events which may result from our present measures are of the most alarming nature. When I was up before, I endeavored to show the degree of power the Government could exercise without being charged with an ill administration. I shall now proceed briefly to consider the arguments used in reply to what has been advanced by the advocates for moderate duties. I believe it is a good rule to judge of the strength of a cause by the arguments used to defend it; and here I must take the liberty of saying, that the gentlemen on the other side of the question have adduced not one to support their opinion that has carried conviction to my mind. I consider that, by a decision of this question, the good which the new Government is expected to produce may be rendered problematical. Though I am fully impressed with the necessity there is for revenue to supply the public expenses, yet I cannot believe we are likely to obtain more by heavy duties than by temperate ones, and it is to this point that my arguments tend. I do not believe that in either case we shall procure fully sufficient to supply the public demands. If we have to procure 8,000,000 dollars, I venture to say, not near the half could be raised by an impost system; but admitting that it could by a high scale of duties for the first year, it could not be done in the subsequent ones. Now I regard this as a permanent system of revenue, rather than a productive one; if it is laid high, you will find your collection annually diminish. Now, will any Government take such measures in gathering in its harvest, as to ruin the soil? Will they rack-rent their tenants in such a manner as to deprive them of the means of improving the estate? Such can never be the policy of this enlightened country. We know, from the fundamental principles of republics, that public opinion gives the tone to every action of the Government—the laws ought to correspond with the habits and manners, nay, I may almost add, wishes of the people. Well, Mr. Chairman, we are told a tax upon rum is popular; I will agree with the gentlemen; but still a high duty will induce people to run it, and though the consumer may pay the tax without complaining, yet it will go into the pockets of individuals who defraud your revenue. Gentlemen have complained that we do not offer a substitute for what we find fault with. I will endeavor to explain a system I would place in the room of this. I would reduce the duties generally so low as to hold out no encouragement to smuggling; in this case, it is more than probable, the amount of the impost, at the end of one year, would exceed the collection under the present rate. By giving this proof of moderation and wisdom, we should obtain the public favor and confidence; the Government would be acquiring strength, its movements would be more certain, and we could in every subsequent year extend the system, and make the whole productive; then it would be in the power of Government, by aids, to improve our agriculture, manufactures, and commerce. Our imports are now very great; by the increase of our commerce, we shall probably find our revenue produce twice as much seven years hence as it can be expected to do at present.

Mr. Madison.—Let us compare the probable amount of the revenue proposed to be raised by this system, with what is raised in Great Britain, and we shall be apt to infer that they are not so oppressive as gentlemen seem to insinuate. Taking the highest estimate that I have heard mentioned, and it will not produce three millions of dollars. The population of the United States exceeds three millions of souls, hence the tax does not amount to one dollar per head. Great Britain, on the highest estimation, does not contain eight millions of inhabitants, and has an annual revenue to provide of thirteen millions sterling. It is true, she has recourse to other means besides an impost for the purpose of obtaining such a revenue; but those other means are certainly more objectionable in that country, and would be much more so here. Each individual of that kingdom pays eight times as much as is required by the United States; now, where is the propriety of making a comparison between them?

Mr. Baldwin asked if the Government of the United States of America was four or five times worse to be administered than the Governments in Europe? Whether the public opinion was four or five times more unfavorable to such an administration? If these questions are answered in the affirmative, then the inferences which gentlemen have drawn, of the impracticability of collecting the duties laid in the bill, are just. But this is not allowing the General Government the common chance of executing its laws. If it were the worst Government on earth, it might be allowed a chance of doing one quarter of what others perform. If we find by experience, that we are too weak to execute a system which is so much easier than other nations have adopted, it may be proper to alter it. We shall be better able to judge how far we are likely to succeed, when the bill for the collection of the revenue is brought forward. Such a bill is now in the hands of a committee, and it is to be hoped, when they report it, it will be found sufficient to insure the collection; till then, it will be best to continue the rate as it stands.

Mr. Boudinot.—When we consider the arguments of gentlemen on both sides of this question, we shall find they do not differ so much as, on a superficial view, gentlemen may be led to imagine. It is agreed, that a revenue must be obtained adequate to our wants; but some gentlemen think we shall not receive a greater sum, because we lay a high duty; in this opinion I am with them. I think the present is a favorable time to lay an impost duty, and expect very considerable aid from the public spirit; but I am in favor of a low duty, because I would do nothing to check that spirit. If we lay high duties, and a man finds smuggling the most profitable business he can follow, we shall have to contend with private interest. If we lay a light duty of thirty or forty per cent., the temptation will be too strong for resistance, and the sum collected may not amount to ten per cent. on the whole importation; whereas, if we lay twenty or fifteen per cent. the whole may probably be collected, and the treasury be better filled, because it does not hold out so strong an inducement to evade the payment of the duties.

Another objection has been stated, which is of great weight: a system of high duties will necessarily engage us in a system of drawbacks. If we are forced into this measure, it will be a great injury to the revenue.

We ought also to consider the inconvenience to which high duties will subject our merchants. It is a common case in America, that our mercantile capitals are limited. Gentlemen engaged in commerce can ill spare so large a proportion in the payment of duties.

It has been mentioned by gentlemen, that Great Britain collects four shillings sterling per gallon on rum; yet she is exposed to great difficulties in obtaining it. But I ask gentlemen, whether Great Britain ever laid such a high duty in the first instance, as we are about to impose? I believe they did not: they began, I apprehend, with moderate duties, and increased them as circumstances authorized, when the people became habituated to the imposition. This is the very principle I wish to adopt, and show the world that our conduct is founded in wisdom, propriety, and experience. If we shall discover our mistake in laying high duties, and are driven by necessity to reduce them, such measures will operate to the injury of the fair trader; whereas, if we increase them by degrees, it will be rather favorable to their interest than otherwise; at all events, it will injure none.

If a sense of the committee could be obtained on a general reduction of ten or fifteen per cent. on the rate the articles now stand at, I should be glad to vote in favor of such a motion; but I could not approve of reducing the article of rum alone, because I do not think it charged out of proportion with the others.

Mr. Jackson differed from his colleague, (Mr. Baldwin.) He thought, although the British laid four shillings on rum, they did not collect it; and that their custom-house establishments were so expensive, as to leave a mere trifle for the net produce of the impost duty. If America employed such a host of revenue officers as to secure the payment of high duties, there would be very little left, after compensating their services, to supply the federal treasury.

Mr. Wadsworth desired gentlemen to consider, that the citizens of the United States owned vessels as well calculated for smuggling, as any that were employed between the Netherlands and England; therefore, they had little more security against smuggling than Great Britain.

Mr. Jackson.—It was well observed by the honorable gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. Wadsworth,) that America has vessels well adapted for smuggling: I can declare it, from my own knowledge, to be the fact. It is not, Mr. Chairman, the large vessels coming off long voyages that we are to apprehend danger from; it is our coasters, small vessels constantly coming in and going out; these can run goods from foreign ports adjacent to the United States; they are best acquainted with the unfrequented parts, where they can deposit their cargoes with safety, and will make use of these advantages to defraud your revenue.

With regard to the equity of the impost system, I conceive direct taxation will be more equitable. We, in the Southern States, shall then pay in proportion to our numbers; but under this law we shall contribute much more.

Gentlemen talk of improving the morals of the people by taxation. For my part, I conceive revenue has nothing to do with the morals of the people; therefore, such considerations have no weight on my mind. All that I contemplate is, drawing as much money as we can with equity; and here I believe more can be obtained by a less impost than by a greater; therefore, I am in favor of reducing the duties. It will likewise be more honorable to the Government to begin gradually and win the affections of the people, rather than disgust them by oppressive measures; for if we lose their confidence, we lose our power and authority.

Mr. Gerry.—It appears to me, that gentlemen place their arguments on the name of high duties, rather than on principle; for if they were certain that the energy of Government would effect all they aspire at, then it would follow, that we have nothing more to do than to name the sum we want. But if these ideas are not well supported, the superstructure they have raised upon them must fall to the ground. The energy of your Government depends upon the approbation of the people. No doubt the citizens of the United States will support the Government they have adopted, so long as they approve the measures it pursues, but no longer. Gentlemen trust much, on this occasion, to the co-operation which they expect from their constituents; but I would wish them to examine this argument. These duties are to be collected from the several States into which certain goods are imported. If the people of Massachusetts shall conceive any particular duty peculiarly oppressive on them, they will seek to evade it. This opens a door for smuggling all the other articles.

I conceive gentlemen to be mistaken with respect to the effects which high duties will produce on the mercantile interest. I think there cannot be a doubt but they will be obliged to smuggle; if they mean to continue their business, their capital will be insufficient for the purposes of commerce and the payment of high duties. Gentlemen will not draw knowledge from the experience of Great Britain; therefore, it is unnecessary to adduce her example. But let us see what we are taught by the practice of our own States. Massachusetts drew a very considerable revenue from an impost; she lately tried to increase it by doubling the duties; but, instead of doing so, they found the revenue lessened, and they were obliged to alter what they had so injudiciously attempted. I am willing to suppose with gentlemen, that the Government is invested by the constitution with sufficient energy to carry any regulation of this kind into effect; but is this the time to try the energy of your Government, when your commerce is struggling with every kind of difficulty and embarrassment? Formerly our merchants were able to extend their operations by the means of an established credit in Britain; but unfortunately this is no longer the case. How, then, is it possible they can continue their trade, when you lop off another part of their capital? Besides, as was said by the worthy gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Bland), there is not money enough in the United States to pay the duties. I believe it is well known, that our commerce is greatly distressed by the universal want of specie; there has not been less in circulation for many years than there is at this time. Gentlemen who have property cannot convert it into money; then how will the merchant be able to raise cash for the payment of duties equal to thirty or forty per cent. on his capital? These are serious and alarming circumstances, and such as prove to my mind that the commerce was never less able to bear a high impost than at present, nor ever stood in greater need of the fostering hand of Government for its support. If gentlemen are convinced of the truth of these observations, and they are so notorious that they cannot have escaped the knowledge of any one, they will see the necessity of turning their attention to the encouragement of navigation and trade, rather than think of drawing an oppressive revenue from them.

Mr. Madison submitted, whether the burthen would not operate more on the Southern States than the Northern. The duties could be collected in the Middle States—this was proved by the experience of some years; for they had collected in those States, in many instances, duties nearly equal to what were proposed. In the Eastern States, it was the interest of the manufacturers to see the duties were well collected; they had been imposed to favor their interests. The distillers would exert themselves in aiding the Government to collect the duty on foreign rum, because it particularly interfered with country rum; from hence he concluded that the impost could be collected with tolerable certainty even in that country most convenient for carrying on a clandestine trade.

Mr. Ames contended that it would be the particular interest of one set of men to evade the payment of the duties. As mankind was governed by interest, it required all the attention of the Government to prevent a breach of the law; because, when the banks and bulwarks of defence were once broken down, the full tide of clandestine commerce would overflow the country. Gentlemen recollected the circumstances which attended the depreciation of the late continental money. Some persons, from motives of interest or necessity, first made a distinction between it and specie, and although every exertion was made by the patriotic among our citizens to prevent the alarming evil, yet every thing was insufficient; they were at length obliged to acquiesce in measures they could not prevent. This was the case on that occasion, and will be the case whenever our laws or regulations run counter to private interest.

Mr. Sherman.—The gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Ames) has said, that because we cannot raise the whole sum necessary to supply our wants, we should be content to stop half way. I know we shall not be able to obtain money enough by the impost to pay off our whole debt, but then I wish to raise as much as possible in this way. I believe the people are able to pay as much as the necessities of the Government require; if they are not, we shall never restore the public credit, which is one of the chief ends of our appointment. I believe they are not only able but willing to contribute sufficient for this purpose. The resources of this country are very great, if they are properly called into action; and although they may not be so great as those of Britain, yet it should be remembered, that nation has occasion for twelve times as much revenue as the United States.

Gentlemen have had recourse to popular opinion in support of their arguments. Popular opinion is founded in justice, and the only way to know if the popular opinion is in favor of a measure, is to examine whether the measure is just and right in itself. I think whatever is proper and right, the people will judge of and comply with. The people wish that the Government may derive respect from the justice of its measures; they have given it their support on this account. I believe the popular opinion is in favor of raising a revenue to pay our debts, and if we do right, they will not neglect their duty; therefore, the arguments that are urged in favor of a low duty will prove that the people are contented with what the bill proposes. The people at this time pay a higher duty on imported rum than what is proposed in this system, even in Massachusetts; it is true, it is partly laid by way of excise, but I can see no reason against doing it in this way as well as the other.

Mr. Lawrence.—It has been intimated by gentlemen in favor of high duties, that it will limit the consumption of foreign articles; if this be the case, the quantity imported will be lessened; if it is our object to raise revenue, it is certainly unwise to destroy the object from which the revenue is to be collected. It is supposed the amount of the duties will be insufficient to answer the public wants; and yet the public creditors have great expectations from this resource. Let us therefore be careful how we destroy it; if revenue is our primary object, and the other considerations but secondary, we should do nothing to operate against that principle.

Mr. Madison.—It does not follow, because it will in some degree limit the consumption, that we ought not to lay a high duty on rum; if it has that effect, it will be an ample compensation for the loss of revenue; but probably, as we extinguish our debt, we shall have the less occasion for the revenue itself.

Mr. Goodhue.—The object of the committee is to raise revenue, I take it. This would, perhaps, be best done by reducing the duty, but I am not inclined to reduce it so low as some gentlemen seem to desire; it may be reduced a few cents, and therefore I move to insert ten instead of twelve.

The question was taken for striking out the twelve cents, as it stood in the bill, on all spirits of Jamaica proof, imported from the dominions of nations in alliance with the United States, in order to leave it blank, to be filled up hereafter.

The House divided on the question; 19 in favor of the motion, and 26 against it.

So it passed in the negative.

Adjourned.

Monday, May 11.

On Titles.

The House took into consideration the message from the Senate, communicated on Saturday last, respecting the disagreement of the Senate to the report of a joint committee, on the subject of annexing titles to the offices of President and Vice President.

Mr. Parker moved a resolution to the following effect:

Resolved, That this House having, on Tuesday last, adopted the report of their committee appointed to confer with a committee of the Senate, stating, "That it is not proper to annex any style or title to the respective styles or titles of office expressed in the constitution;" and having, in their address to the President of the United States on Friday last, proceeded to act pursuant thereto, deem it improper to accede to the proposition made by the Senate, as communicated by their order of the 9th instant, for appointing a committee to confer with a committee of this House, in considering and reporting under what title it will be proper for the President of the United States in future to be addressed.

Mr. Page seconded the motion, observing, that in his opinion, the House had no right to interfere in the business: the constitution expressly prescribed the power of Congress as to bestowing titles. He did not conceive the real honor or dignity of either of those situations to consist in high sounding titles. The House had, on a former occasion, expressed their disapprobation of any title being annexed to their own members, and very justly too. After having so fully and explicitly declared their sentiments against such measures, he thought it behooved them to be explicit with the Senate. Indeed, he felt himself a good deal hurt, that gentlemen on this floor, after having refused their permission to the Clerk to enter any more than their plain names on the journal, should be standing up and addressing one another by the title of "the honorable gentlemen." He wished the practice could be got over, because it added neither to the honor nor dignity of the House.

Mr. Lee approved of the appointment of a committee to confer with a committee of the Senate, as to the mode due to the occasion; but he was against adding any title.

Mr. Tucker.—When this business was first brought before the House, I objected to the appointment of a committee to confer with a committee of the Senate, because I thought it a subject which this House had no right to take into consideration. I then stood single and unsupported in my opinion, but have had the pleasure to find since, that some gentlemen on this floor agree that I was right. If I was then right, I shall, from stronger reasoning, be right now in opposing the appointment of another committee on the same subject. The joint committee reported that no titles ought to be given; we agreed to the report, and I was in hopes we should have heard no more of the matter. The Senate rejected the report, and have now sent us a resolution, expressive of a determination to give a title, to which they desire our concurrence. I am still of the opinion that we were wrong in appointing the first committee, and think that we shall be guilty of greater impropriety if we now appoint another. What, sir, is the intention of this business? Will it not alarm our fellow-citizens? Will it not give them just cause of alarm? Will they not say, that they have been deceived by the convention that framed the constitution? That it has been contrived with a view to lead them on by degrees to that kind of government which they have thrown off with abhorrence? Shall we not justify the fears of those who were opposed to the constitution, because they considered it as insidious and hostile to the liberties of the people? One of its warmest advocates, one of the framers of it, (Mr. Wilson, of Pennsylvania,) has recommended it by calling it a pure democracy. Does this look like a democracy, when one of the first acts of the two branches of the Legislature is to confer titles? Surely not. To give dignity to our government, we must give a lofty title to our chief magistrate. Does the dignity of a nation consist in the distance between the first magistrate and his citizens? Does it consist in the exaltation of one man, and the humiliation of the rest? If so, the most despotic government is the most dignified; and to make our dignity complete, we must give a high title, an embroidered robe, a princely equipage, and, finally, a crown and hereditary succession. Let us, sir, establish tranquillity and good order at home, and wealth, strength, and national dignity will be the infallible result. The aggregate of dignity will be the same whether it be divided among all, or centred in one. And whom, sir, do we mean to gratify? Is it our present President? Certainly, if we expect to please him, we shall be greatly disappointed. He has a real dignity of character, and is above such little vanities. We shall give him infinite pain; we shall do him an essential injury. We shall place him in a most delicate and disagreeable situation; we shall reduce him to the necessity of evincing to the world his disapprobation of our measures, or of risking some diminution of that high reputation for disinterested patriotism which he has so justly acquired. It is not for his gratification; for whose, then, are we to do this? Where is the man among us who has the presumption and vanity to expect it? Who is it that shall say—for my aggrandizement three millions of people have entered into a calamitous war; they have persevered in it for eight long years; they have sacrificed their property, they have spilt their blood, they have rendered thousands of families wretched by the loss of their only protectors and means of support? This spirit of imitation, sir, this spirit of mimicry and apery will be the ruin of our country. Instead of giving us dignity in the eye of foreigners, it will expose us to be laughed at as apes. They gave us credit for our exertions in effecting the revolution, but they will say that we want independence of spirit to render it a blessing to us.

Mr. Trumbull moved for the appointment of a Committee of Conference, to consider on the difference which appeared in the votes of the two Houses upon the report of the joint committee.

Mr. Burke hoped the House would express their decided disapprobation of bestowing titles in any shape whatever; it would be an indignity in the House to countenance any measures of this nature. Perhaps some gentlemen might think the subject was a matter of indifference; but it did not appear to him in that light. The introduction of two words which he could mention into the titles of these officers, would alter the constitution itself; but he would forbear to say any thing further, as he had a well-grounded expectation that the House would take no further notice of the business.

Mr. Goodhue thought the conference unnecessary, because the House had not only adopted the report of their committee, but proceeded to act in pursuance thereof.

Mr. Seney joined the last gentleman in sentiment, and thought it an unnecessary waste of time to give the subject any longer discussion.

Mr. Madison.—I may be well disposed to concur in opinion with gentlemen that we ought not to recede from our former vote on this subject, yet at the same time I may wish to proceed with due respect to the Senate, and give dignity and weight to our own opinion, so far as it contradicts theirs, by the deliberate and decent manner in which we decide. For my part, Mr. Speaker, I do not conceive titles to be so pregnant with danger as some gentlemen apprehend. I believe a President of the United States, clothed with all the powers given in the constitution, would not be a dangerous person to the liberties of America, if you were to load him with all the titles of Europe or Asia. We have seen superb and august titles given, without conferring power and influence, or without even obtaining respect. One of the most impotent sovereigns in Europe has assumed a title as high as human invention can devise; for example, what words can imply a greater magnitude of power and strength than that of High Mightiness? This title seems to border almost upon impiety; it is assuming the pre-eminence and omnipotence of the Deity; yet this title, and many others cast in the same mould, have obtained a long time in Europe, but have they conferred power? Does experience sanction such an opinion? Look at the republic I have alluded to, and say if their present state warrants the idea.

I am not afraid of titles, because I fear the danger of any power they could confer, but I am against them because they are not very reconcilable with the nature of our Government or the genius of the people. Even if they were proper in themselves, they are not so at this juncture of time. But my strongest objection is founded in principle; instead of increasing, they diminish the true dignity and importance of a republic, and would in particular, on this occasion, diminish the true dignity of the first magistrate himself. If we give titles, we must either borrow or invent them. If we have recourse to the fertile fields of luxuriant fancy, and deck out an airy being of our own creation, it is a great chance but its fantastic properties would render the empty phantom ridiculous and absurd. If we borrow, the servile imitation will be odious, not to say ridiculous also; we must copy from the pompous sovereigns of the East, or follow the inferior potentates of Europe; in either case, the splendid tinsel or gorgeous robe would disgrace the manly shoulders of our chief. The more truly honorable shall we be, by showing a total neglect and disregard to things of this nature; the more simple, the more republican we are in our manners, the more rational dignity we shall acquire; therefore, I am better pleased with the report adopted by the House, than I should have been with any other whatsoever.

The Senate, no doubt, entertain different sentiments on this subject. I would wish, therefore, to treat their opinion with respect and attention. I would desire to justify the reasonable and republican decision of this House to the other branch of Congress in order to prevent a misunderstanding. But that the motion of my worthy colleague (Mr. Parker) has possession of the House, I would move a more temperate proposition, and I think it deserves some pains to bring about that good will and urbanity, which for the despatch of public business ought to be kept up between the two Houses. I do not think it would be a sacrifice of dignity to appoint a Committee of Conference, but imagine it would tend to cement that harmony which has hitherto been preserved between the Senate and this House; therefore, while I concur with the gentlemen who express, in such decided terms, their disapprobation of bestowing titles, I concur also with those who are for the appointment of a Committee of Conference, not apprehending they will depart from the principles adopted and acted upon by the House.

Mr. White did not approve of a Committee of Conference, because the House had already determined the question by unanimously adopting the report of the joint committee. He did not think that it was worth while having the subject longer contested; he was satisfied both the spirit of the constitution and the spirit of the people disapproved of titles.

Mr. Bland would be careful of giving umbrage to the Senate, because he wished that the unanimity and moderation which subsisted between the two Houses might continue. He considered the present as a very proper opportunity for the appointment of a Committee of Conference. The two Houses had disagreed on the report of their committees; it was proper, therefore, that they should mutually assign their reasons, in order to bring about an agreement to the same resolution. He hoped, therefore, that such a committee would be appointed, though he had no expectation that the House would give up an opinion they so justly and decidedly entertained respecting titles.

Mr. Parker wanted to know what was the object of gentlemen in the appointment of a Committee of Conference? The committee could only say that the House had refused their consent to annexing any titles whatever to the President and Vice President; for certainly the committee would not descend into the merits of a question already established by the House. For his part, he could not see what purpose was to be answered by the appointment of such a committee. He wished to have done with the subject, because while it remained a question in the House, the people's minds would be much agitated; it was impossible that a true republican spirit could remain unconcerned when a principle was under consideration, so repugnant to the principles of equal liberty.

Mr. Sherman thought it was pretty plain that the House could not comply with the proposition of the Senate. The appointment of a committee, on the part of the House, to consider and determine what style or title will be proper to annex to the President and Vice President, would imply that the House meant that some style or title should be given. Now this they never could intend, because they have decided that no style or title ought to be given; it will be sufficient to adduce this reason for not complying with the request of the Senate.

Mr. Jackson wondered what title the Senate had in contemplation to add dignity or lustre to the person that filled the presidential chair. For his part, he could conceive none. Would it add to his fame to be called after the petty and insignificant princes of Europe? Would styling him His Serene Highness, His Grace, or Mightiness, add one tittle to the solid properties he possessed? He thought it would not; and therefore conceived the proposition to be trifling with the dignity of the Government. As a difference had taken place between the two Houses, he had no objection to a conference taking place. He hoped it might be productive of good consequences, and that the Senate might be induced to follow the laudable example of the House.

Mr. Madison was of opinion, that the House might appoint a Committee of Conference without being supposed to countenance the measure. The standing rule of the House declared, that, in case of disagreeing votes, a Committee of Conference should be appointed. Now, as the case provided for in the rule had actually happened, he inferred that it was proper to proceed in the manner directed by the rules of the House. The subject was still open to discussion, but there was little probability that the House would rescind their adoption of the report. I presume gentlemen do not intend to compel the Senate into their measures; they should recollect that the Senate stand upon independent ground, and will do nothing but what they are convinced of the propriety of; it would be better, therefore, to treat them with delicacy, and offer some reasons to induce them to come into our measure. He expected this would be the result of a conference, and therefore was in favor of such a motion.

Mr. Seney intended nothing disrespectful to the Senate, but he conceived, after having adopted the report of the committee, it would derogate from their own dignity to rescind a unanimous resolution; and for what other purpose could a conference be appointed by the House? They must certainly suppose that there might be ground for changing their opinion. Nothing of this kind appeared to him, and therefore he was of opinion, it would be a useless consumption to waste any more time about it.

Mr. Clymer thought that there was little occasion to add any title to either the President or Vice President. He was very well convinced, by experience, that titles did not confer power; on the contrary, they frequently made their possessors ridiculous. The most impotent potentates, the most insignificant powers, generally assumed the highest and most lofty titles. That they do not indicate power and prerogative, is very observable in the English history; for when the chief magistrate of that nation bore the simple style of His Grace or Highness, his prerogatives were much more extensive than since he has become His Most Sacred Majesty.

Titular distinctions are said to be unpopular in the United States; yet a person would be led to think otherwise, from the vast number of honorable gentlemen we have in America. As soon as a man is selected for the public service, his fellow-citizens, with liberal hand, shower down titles on him—either excellency or honorable. He would venture to affirm, there were more honorable esquires in the United States than in all the world besides. He wished to check a propensity so notoriously evidenced in favor of distinctions, and hoped the example of the House might prevail to extinguish that predilection which appeared in favor of titles.

Mr. Page.—If I thought the motion made by my colleague in the least degree disrespectful, I should not have seconded it. I would be the last man on this floor to treat that worthy body with disrespect; but I believe it cannot be construed to have such a meaning. If we were to let the resolution lie on the table, it would not be disrespectful. But what is the object of the motion? Simply to inform the Senate that we cannot rescind a resolution adopted in consequence of the report of a joint committee. If the conduct of either House is in the least degree disrespectful, (though I do not conceive it is,) the body who declined adopting the report, after knowing the sense of the other to be in its favor, is the most so.

But on what are a committee to confer? Not upon what title shall be bestowed, because we have no right to enter on the subject; and here I must tell gentlemen I differ from them, when they think titles can do no harm. Titles, sir, I say, may do harm, and have done harm. If we contend now for a right to confer titles, I apprehend the time will come when we shall form a reservoir for honor, and make our President the fountain of it. In such case, may not titles do an injury to the Union? They have been the occasion of an eternal faction in the kingdom we were formerly connected with, and may beget like inquietude in America; for I contend, if you give the title, you must follow it with the robe and the diadem, and then the principles of your government are subverted.

Mr. Lee moved the previous question, as the best mode of getting rid of the motion before the House: he was supported by a sufficient number. And on the question, Shall the main question be now put? it passed in the negative; and so the motion was lost.

On motion, it was

Resolved, That a committee be appointed, to join with such committee as the Senate may appoint, to confer on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses, upon the report of their joint committee, appointed to consider what titles shall be given to the President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the constitution.

Messrs. Madison, Page, Benson, Trumbull, and Sherman were the committee elected.

Impost Bill.

The House then went into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States. Mr. Page in the chair.

The question on laying a duty on molasses being under consideration:

Mr. Tucker.—Notwithstanding I am anxious for a reduction of the duties on all the articles in the bill, yet my vote on molasses will be regulated by what the committee shall determine in other cases, as I do not conceive it to be out of proportion. If a general reduction takes place on the other articles, I shall be disposed to make a reduction on this article; but as mine is but a single vote, gentlemen may not be inclined to favor my proposition for a general reduction in order to gain my assent to a reduction on this particular article.

Mr. Goodhue was of opinion that the duties were too high for collection; but he did not agree with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Tucker) that the duty on molasses was rated in proportion to the other articles, and therefore the question, whether molasses shall be reduced or not, did not depend on a general reduction, but on its own bottom; if it was rated too high for collection and proportion, the committee would agree to reduce it.

Mr. Fitzsimons expected the gentleman from South Carolina would vote in the manner he had pledged himself; he had promised to vote for reducing the duty on molasses if the committee reduced the duty on other articles; now, as they had decided against a reduction, he hoped the gentleman would be in favor of the duty on molasses, as it stood in the bill, and not vote in the manner he had promised.

Mr. Tucker.—The gentleman last up has certainly misunderstood me. I made no promise. I said my vote would depend upon the reduction of the other articles, but I was indifferent as to rum; I did not consider the State I represented as being either particularly benefited or injured by a duty on rum; and therefore did not urge any arguments in favor of reducing that article, more than I thought it might be proper to preserve the ratio, as fixed by the House, between the several articles. If gentlemen think rum can bear a high duty, and be safely collected, I have no objection to letting it remain. But there are some articles that bear heavily and unequally upon South Carolina; now, I think it my duty to vote in such a manner as to prevent her from bearing an undue proportion of the tax to be collected; I am, consequently, obliged to vote for a high tax on articles used in other States, (if my State is highly taxed,) however unequally it may fall. I shall therefore vote so as to endeavor to oblige other States to bear their true proportion of the aggregate sum. I wish to defer any determination on the article of molasses until we have gone through the other articles, that I may know how to vote on this. If gentlemen think my single vote of no consequence, they may proceed; but I may think the duty too high on molasses, and may be disposed to make it five cents, or less, if a reduction is made in the other articles; but I would not be understood to pledge myself for any particular sum.