FIRST CONGRESS.—FIRST SESSION. (continued 4)

Mr. Ames thought the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Fitzsimons) had misunderstood the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Tucker) respecting his pledging himself to vote in favor of molasses. He believed the gentleman from South Carolina incapable of making any improper accommodation either on this or any other occasion; the subject had never been mentioned to him, nor he believed to any body else, much less could the gentleman's intention be the result of bargain or compromise. For his own part, he would never consent to such a degradation of his rights as a member of the House, as to stipulate for the exercise of his opinion.

Mr. Tucker.—If the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Fitzsimons) supposes that I have bargained to vote for or against any measure, he does me wrong; and if he charges me with such actions, I desire he may state his reasons and explain himself. I did not hear perfectly what he said when he was up before, and therefore did not refute any improper construction he might have put on my arguments.

Mr. Fitzsimons had no difficulty in declaring his meaning. He understood when the article of rum was under consideration, that the gentleman held out a promise to vote for the reduction of the duty on molasses, if the committee would agree with him in reducing generally. This promise was not made in a private manner; it was made by the gentleman in his place. He could not recite the particular expression of the gentleman, but he understood from it that the gentleman pledged himself to reduce the duty on molasses, if the gentlemen from the Eastern States would join him in a general reduction.

Mr. Tucker.—I expressed a wish for a general reduction to take place throughout the whole system; but I never made a promise with regard to a reduction of any particular article.

Mr. Seney observed, that the discussion of molasses had been deferred when the subject was last before the House, in order to give time for a full investigation; but he conceived that no such reason now existed, in favor of its lying over, and therefore hoped the House would proceed to decide upon it.

Mr. Ames was willing to proceed to the consideration of that subject; he did not wish it deferred to the end of the list, that it might be held over them in terrorem. There were several articles in the list, which he did not conceive to be taxed too high for collection, or out of proportion with others, therefore it was likely they would not be reduced. If this was the case, the reduction would not be general, and the gentleman from South Carolina might not think it his duty to favor the reduction of molasses. He wished every article to stand upon its own bottom. If molasses was too high, the committee would lower it; if not, they will continue it at the rate it is, and the business would be done with. If the committee were disposed to proceed, he was ready to take up the subject.

Mr. Carroll saw no reason for postponing the business at this time. When the subject was suspended on a former occasion, several gentlemen from Massachusetts were absent on business, but it was surely unnecessary now to have any delay. After the repeated discussions it had undergone, he was satisfied gentlemen were prepared for a decision, and he hoped the question might be taken, and the committee proceed to get through the business. Gentlemen should consider the daily loss which the revenue sustained by the delay of this bill; he cautioned them against considering overmuch, and letting slip the opportunity they now had to supply the public wants.

Mr. Wadsworth would not go over the old ground, and enumerate all the reasons why a reduction of the duty on this article should take place. He satisfied himself with saying it was out of proportion, and too high ever to be collected with certainty; he wished the committee to lower it to three or four cents, and apply to an excise for the deficiency, not conceiving an excise on distilled spirits to be inconvenient or unpopular.

Mr. Ames was sensible that any further discussion of the present subject was unpleasant, nay, it was painful to the committee; but he had such impressions on his mind with regard to its importance, that he must trespass on them again. On all subjects demonstration is desirable, but there is only one science capable of complete demonstration. Many other sciences admit of different degrees of demonstration; but of all the sciences on earth, the science of politics is the least capable of affording satisfactory conclusions, while it is the one that, from its importance, requires the greatest degree of certainty; because when we are to consider those things which relate to the welfare of nations, it is of consequence, and nothing can be more desirable than that we adopt just principles in order to come at proper conclusions. In this science it is dangerous to adopt the visionary projects of speculators instead of principle. We ought to be cautious, therefore, in selecting the information upon which we form our system.

He trusted to make it appear in the course of his arguments, that the propriety of the particular measure under discussion depended upon local knowledge, and yet it would be found of national concern. He believed it could be clearly proved to be as much the interest of one part as of another to have the duty reduced.

It was laid down as a principle that all duties ought to be equal. He believed, if gentlemen gave themselves time for consideration, they would not contend this duty was equal. He said he had made some calculations, which demonstrated the inequality to a very surprising degree. The tax operated in two ways: first, as a tax on a raw material, which increased the price of stock and narrowed the sale; and second, as a tax on an article of consumption. It required the distillation and the consumption to be equal in every part of the Union to render the duty equal in its operation; but no gentleman contended that the consumption or distillation was equal. The gentleman from Virginia said, on a former occasion, that Massachusetts would not contribute her proportion of the national revenue, because her exports were not equal to the Southern States, and of consequence her imports are less; but if this fact is examined, it will be found that she does export in full proportion with the Southern States. Examine her custom-house books, and you will find it; but Massachusetts is greatly concerned in navigation, and the wages of her seamen ought to be added to the amount of the profits of her industry. Then if we consider her consumption, we shall find it in proportion also. Admitting the people of New England to live more moderate than the opulent citizens of Virginia or Carolina, yet they have not such a number of blacks among them, whose living is wretched; consequently, the average consumption per head will be nearly the same. The fact is, that all taxes of this nature will fall generally in proportion to the ability to pay.

Laying a heavy duty on molasses incurs the necessity of allowing a drawback on country rum. By this system, we may lose more revenue than we gain; anyhow, it will render it very uncertain. It is a question of some importance, whether it would not be beneficial to the United States to establish a manufacture which would be very lucrative. But waiving that consideration, he would ask gentlemen, if there was any propriety in taxing molasses in its raw state, with a duty intended to be laid on rum? Certainly this had better be by way of excise. In this mode the revenue would escape fraud by smuggling, which would otherwise be unavoidable. The tax was such a temptation, being thirty per cent. upon its value, that no checks could prevent a clandestine trade being carried on.

Without the molasses trade is continued, the fishery cannot be carried on. They are so intimately connected, that the weapon which wounds the one will stab the other. If by such measures as these we ruin one of the most valuable interests of the United States, will not the people have a right to complain that, instead of protecting, you injure and destroy their pursuits? He did not mean to say that the people would form unwarrantable combinations; but their exertions to support the Government will be damped; they will look with chagrin on the disappointment of their hopes; and it will add to their vexation that they have been deceived under the most flattering appearances; for who could conceive that a Government, constructed and adopted in the manner this has been, could ever be administered to the destruction of that welfare which it was formed to support?

He recommended experience as the best guide, and said, that it was decidedly against high duties, particularly on molasses; and concluded with appealing to the justice and wisdom of the committee for a determination on this subject.

Mr. Carroll would not take up the time of the committee with saying a word on the main subject, but begged them to consider of how much importance it was to the Union to get this bill into operation. If every article was to be again debated in the manner it had already been, he could see no end to the business. Unless gentlemen could advance some new and weighty arguments, he thought the time misspent in recapitulating those that had been unsuccessfully urged twice or three times before.

Mr. Madison thought the arguments against the duty were inconsistent. He believed the gentlemen in opposition had not replied to an observation he had made, and which was of great force on his mind. The gentlemen all say that a heavy duty will ruin the distilleries and fisheries, and the people concerned in them; yet they profess themselves willing to lay the same duty, but in two forms instead of one. Now he would be glad to know if the distilleries and fisheries would not be precisely in the same situation, let which would take place?

On motion, the committee rose, and the House adjourned.

Tuesday, May 12.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. Page in the chair, on the Impost Bill.

The article of molasses being still under consideration:

Mr. Ames wished to reply to the observation made yesterday by the gentleman from Virginia. Does that gentleman, said he, recollect, if we lay an excise, we prevent the burthen from being imposed upon the poor for their subsistence, as molasses, in the raw state, will be lightly taxed? In the next place, it is more favorable to the importers of that article than the impost; it does not require so large a proportion of their capital to be advanced in payment of duties, nor do they run the risk of bad debts, because it may be so regulated that the retailer shall secure the duty. Another reason is, it will save the expense of a numerous host of custom-house officers, tide-waiters, &c. These considerations proved, that if the excise was no better than an impost, it was no worse; and as the duty would be better collected, and give less reason for smuggling, which, above all things, was dangerous to the revenue, it was sufficient to warrant the committee in giving the excise duty a preference.

Mr. Goodhue would not trouble the House long on the subject; but begged leave to repeat the manner in which the molasses trade was connected with the fisheries, and the fisheries with the navigation; that, if the first is injured, the other two are wounded through its side. About three-fifths of all the fish that are put up for that market, are of an inferior quality, and would not sell elsewhere. The French would not permit us to carry them there, but because we take their molasses in exchange; they will not let their colonies send the molasses to France, lest it interfere with their brandy. Now, any impediment to the exportation of molasses, will prevent the exportation of fish; if we cannot export the fish, for what purpose shall we continue our fisheries? And if they are given up, how are we to form seamen to man our future navy?

Mr. Madison said his mind was incapable of discovering any plan that would answer the purpose the committee have in view, and not produce greater evils than the one under consideration. He thought an excise very objectionable, but as no actual proposition for entering into such a system was before the committee, he forbore to say any thing further about it. He admitted an excise would obviate in part some of the difficulties; but he did not think the answer given to his argument altogether satisfactory; yet there was another argument he urged on a former occasion remaining unanswered—it was, that, at this moment, the fisheries, distilleries, and all their connections, were laboring under heavier duties than what is now proposed; true, the duty is collected in a different mode, but it affects the consumer in the same manner. The gentlemen have said, to be sure, that the duty is evaded; but if half is collected, it amounts to more than six cents per gallon.

It is said that a tax on molasses will be unpopular, but not more so than a tax on salt. Can gentlemen state more serious apprehensions in the former than the latter case? yet the committee did not forego a productive fund, because the article was a necessary of life, and in general consumption. If there is the disposition that is represented for people to complain of the oppression of Government, have not the citizens of the Southern States more just ground for complaint than others? The system can only be acceptable to them, because it is essentially necessary to be adopted for the public good.

Gentlemen argue, that a tax on molasses is unpopular, and prove it by experience under the British Government. If this is to be adduced as a proof of the popularity of a measure, what are we to say with respect to a tax on tea? Gentlemen remembered, no doubt, how odious this kind of tax was thought to be throughout America; yet the House had, without hesitation, laid a considerable duty upon it. He did not imagine that a duty on either of those articles was in itself objectionable; it was the principle upon which the tax was laid that made them unpopular under the British Government.

It is said that this tax is unjust; now, he had not a single idea of justice, that did not contradict the position. If it be considered as it relates to rum, he was certain the consumers of foreign rum paid a larger proportion of revenue into the Treasury than the consumers of country rum; they paid more than equal distributive justice required; if it was considered as it respected molasses, there would appear no injustice. Molasses was consumed in other States; but if it was not, sugar was used in its stead, and subjected to a duty full as high as that on molasses. But dismissing both these considerations, and even admitting the whole weight to fall upon the Northern States, it would not be disproportioned, because, in the long list of enumerated articles subject to a high duty, they imported few or none; indeed, the articles were pretty generally taxed for the benefit of the manufacturing part of the northern community; see loaf sugar, candles, cheese, soap, &c. He hoped gentlemen would not infer from this observation, that he thought the encouragement held out by the bill to manufactures improper; far from it; he was glad to see their growing consequences, and was disposed to give them every aid in his power. From this view of the subject, he was inclined to adhere to the bill, and not make any reduction.

Mr. Gerry hoped the committee would not consider the subject as finally decided; he thought it deserving of further investigation, and expected the committee would be satisfied of the propriety of making some reduction. He felt a concern at being obliged to extend the discussion, but his duty impelled him to oppose a measure he conceived injurious to his country.

Gentlemen had contended, that a duty of six cents per gallon on molasses was just and equal; for his part, he could not discover, with all the exertions his mind was capable of making, how gentlemen prove this to be the case; it appeared to him partial and oppressive.

The principle laid down in the constitution for an equal distribution of taxes was, that they shall be apportioned among the several States, according to their respective number of inhabitants. This principle is made positive as it respects direct taxes; but he thought the equality ought to extend itself to every possible case. The power possessed by the House, with regard to revenue and the power of making all necessary laws, enabled the General Government to exist independent of subordinate associations; but if they were inclined to annihilate the State Governments, yet it would be their interest to attend to the advantages of the community, and administer their power so as not to make it burthensome and oppressive. Now, he wished to know, what principle of justice authorized the committee to lay a duty of six cents on molasses? Unfortunately for Massachusetts, she imports a greater quantity than the whole Union besides. This makes her interest stand alone, and her representatives are left to labor the point, knowing the ill effect it will have upon their constituents. Under these circumstances, it is necessary to pay particular attention to the justice of the measure; gentlemen should consider that, in such cases, there is danger of interest prevailing over equity and policy. Certainly, if the measure is pursued, we shall discover this effect in the end.

Gentlemen have considered the arguments brought against this duty as standing upon local ground, advocating the local interest of Massachusetts. He would examine this position. It is the interest of a majority of the people of that State, that as much revenue should be drawn from molasses as possible. I say it is the interest of the State, for their interest is divided between the landed and commercial; the landed interest predominates, and it was always supposed that the commercial bore a greater share of the public burthen than it ought. The conduct of the State of Massachusetts ought to be esteemed by us as the best guide to discover how far our commercial regulations, as they respect that State, are consistent with policy, if she furnishes the best example. Can we find that she ever imposed a duty of six cents per gallon on molasses? Not a single instance can be produced where she raised revenue from this article. If they then never laid a duty upon it, and they were disposed to get every thing in their power from commerce, we must conclude that if it could have been laid they would have done it. It is not the landed citizens, if he might use the term, who consume molasses; it is the inhabitants of the sea-coast; the former had the power, and they were interested to lay such a tax, it might therefore be expected they would have done it, if they had not been convinced it would have destroyed the fisheries and navigation of the State.

The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison) cannot see how an impost on molasses can affect the distilleries and fisheries. After having been repeated over and over again, it would be unnecessary that he should dwell on this point. But every one could see the connection; if we do not import molasses, we cannot carry on our distilleries nor vend our fish; and it will be impossible to import molasses under such heavy duties; at least the future importation will be limited to two-thirds of the present, because the demand will be in proportion to the increase of price, and the merchant will not have capital to import more than two-thirds of his usual quantity.

He would not reiterate the arguments respecting the fisheries; it was well known to be the best nursery for seamen, the United States had no other, and it never could be the intention of gentlemen to leave the navigation of the Union to the mercy of foreign powers. It is of necessity, then, that we lay the foundation of our maritime importance as soon as may be, and this can be done only by encouraging our fisheries. It is also well known that we have a number of rivals in this business desirous of excluding us from the fishing banks altogether. This consideration of itself is sufficient to induce a wise legislature to extend every encouragement to so important a concern. In any regulation they make, by which it can be effected, they ought to be sure of the ground on which they go.

It appeared to him that six cents would have the most ruinous consequences to the general interest; he therefore hoped gentlemen would agree to reduce it, if not so as to place it among the ad valorem articles, at least down to two cents. However, as the committee are not prepared to say the particular sum proper to be laid, he hoped they would agree to leave it a blank, to be filled up at some future stage of the business.

The question was now taken on striking out six cents, and passed in the affirmative: ayes 24, noes 22.

Propositions were severally made for filling up the blank with two, three, four, and five cents; five being the highest was first put and agreed to—ayes 25, noes 23.

The committee proceeded to consider the subsequent articles; but not having time to go through the whole, they rose, and reported progress, and the House adjourned.

Wednesday, May 13.

The petition of John Fitch, of Pennsylvania, was presented, stating that he is the original discoverer of the principle of applying steam-power to the purposes of navigation, and has obtained an exclusive right therein for a term of years, in the States of Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York, and praying that his rights may be secured to him by law, so as to preclude subsequent improvers upon his principle from participation therein, until the expiration of his granted right. Referred to a committee, consisting of Messrs. Huntington, Cadwalader, and Contee, to report thereon.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Impost Bill, Mr. Page in the chair.

AFRICAN SLAVES.

Mr. Parker moved to insert a clause in the bill, imposing a duty on the importation of slaves, of ten dollars each person. He was sorry that the constitution prevented Congress from prohibiting the importation altogether; he thought it a defect in that instrument that it allowed of such a practice; it was contrary to the Revolution principles, and ought not to be permitted; but as he could not do all the good he desired, he was willing to do what lay in his power. He hoped such a duty as he moved for would prevent, in some degree, this irrational and inhuman traffic; if so, he should feel happy from the success of his motion.

Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, hoped that such an important and serious proposition as this would not be hastily adopted. It was a very late moment for the introduction of new subjects. He expected the committee had got through the business, and would rise without discussing any thing further. At least, if gentlemen were determined on considering the present motion, he hoped they would delay it for a few days, in order to give time for an examination of the subject. It was certainly a matter big with the most serious consequences to the State he represented; he did not think any one thing that had been discussed was so important to them, and the welfare of the Union, as the question now brought forward; but he was not prepared to enter on any argument, and therefore requested the motion might either be withdrawn or laid on the table.

Mr. Sherman approved of the object of the motion, but he did not think this bill was proper to embrace the subject. He could not reconcile himself to the insertion of human beings as an article of duty, among goods, wares, and merchandise. He hoped it would be withdrawn for the present, and taken up hereafter as an independent subject.

Mr. Jackson, observing the quarter from which this motion came, said it did not surprise him, though it might have that effect upon others. He recollected that Virginia was an old settled State, and had her complement of slaves; so she was careless of recruiting her numbers by this means; the natural increase of her imported blacks was sufficient for their purpose; but he thought gentlemen ought to let their neighbors get supplied, before they imposed such a burthen upon the importation. He knew this business was viewed in an odious light to the eastward, because the people were capable of doing their own work, and had no occasion for slaves; but gentlemen will have some feeling for others; they will not try to throw all the weight upon those who have assisted in lightening their burthens; they do not wish to charge us for every comfort and enjoyment of life, and at the same time take away the means of procuring them; they do not wish to break us down at once.

He was convinced, from the inaptitude of the motion, and the want of time to consider it, that the candor of the gentleman would induce him to withdraw it for the present; and if ever it came forward again, he hoped it would comprehend the white slaves as well as black, who were imported from all the jails of Europe; wretches, convicted of the most flagrant crimes, were brought in and sold without any duty whatever. He thought that they ought to be taxed equally with the Africans, and had no doubt but the constitutionality and propriety of such a measure was equally apparent with the one proposed.

Mr. Tucker thought it unfair to bring in such an important subject at a time when debate was almost precluded. The committee had gone through the impost bill, and the whole Union was impatiently expecting the result of their deliberations; the public must be disappointed, and much revenue lost, or this question cannot undergo that full discussion which it deserves.

We have no right, said he, to consider whether the importation of slaves is proper or not; the constitution gives us no power on that point; it is left to the States to judge of that matter as they see fit. But if it is a business the gentleman is determined to discourage, he ought to have brought his motion forward sooner, and even then not have introduced it without previous notice. He hoped the committee would reject the motion, if it was not withdrawn. He was not speaking so much for the State he represented as for Georgia; because the State of South Carolina had a prohibitory law, which could be renewed when its limitation expired.

Mr. Parker had ventured to introduce the subject after full deliberation, and did not like to withdraw it. Although the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. Sherman) had said, that they ought not to be enumerated with goods, wares, and merchandise, he believed they were looked upon by the African traders in this light. He knew it was degrading the human species to annex that character to them; but he would rather do this than continue the actual evil of importing slaves a moment longer. He hoped Congress would do all that lay in their power to restore to human nature its inherent privileges, and, if possible, wipe off the stigma under which America labored. The inconsistency in our principles, with which we are justly charged, should be done away, that we may show, by our actions, the pure beneficence of the doctrine we hold out to the world in our Declaration of Independence.

Mr. Sherman thought the principles of the motion, and the principles of the bill, were inconsistent; the principle of the bill was to raise revenue, the principle of the motion to correct a moral evil. Now, considering it as an object of revenue, it would be unjust, because two or three States would bear the whole burthen, while he believed they bore their full proportion of all the rest. He was against receiving the motion into this bill, though he had no objection to taking it up by itself, on the principles of humanity and policy; and therefore would vote against it if it was not withdrawn.

Mr. Ames joined the gentleman last up; no one could suppose him favorable to slavery; he detested it from his soul; but he had some doubts whether imposing a duty on the importation would not have the appearance of countenancing the practice; it was certainly a subject of some delicacy, and no one appeared to be prepared for the discussion. He therefore hoped the motion would be withdrawn.

Mr. Livermore was not against the principle of the motion; but in the present case he conceived it improper. If negroes were goods, wares, or merchandise, they came within the title of the bill; if they were not, the bill would be inconsistent. But if they are goods, wares, or merchandise, the five per cent. ad valorem will embrace the importation, and the duty of five per cent. is nearly equal to ten dollars per head; so there is no occasion to add it even on the score of revenue.

Mr. Jackson said, it was the fashion of the day to favor the liberty of slaves. He would not go into a discussion of the subject; but he believed it was capable of demonstration that they were better off in their present situation than they would be if they were manumitted. What are they to do if they are discharged? Work for a living? Experience has shown us they will not. Examine what has become of those in Maryland; many of them have been set free in that State. Did they turn themselves to industry and useful pursuits? No, they turn out common pickpockets, petty larceny villains. And is this mercy, forsooth, to turn them into a way in which they must lose their lives; for when they are thrown upon the world, void of property and connections, they cannot get their living but by pilfering. What is to be done for compensation? Will Virginia set all her negroes free? Will they give up the money they cost them, and to whom? When this practice comes to be tried there, the sound of liberty will lose those charms which make it grateful to the ravished ear. But our slaves are not in a worse situation than they were on the coast of Africa. It is not uncommon there for the parents to sell their children in peace; and in war, the whole are taken and made slaves together. In these cases, it is only a change of one slavery for another; and are they not better here, where they have a master, bound by the ties of interest and law, to provide for their support and comfort in old age or infirmity, in which, if they were free, they would sink under the pressure of woe for want of assistance?

He would say nothing of the partiality of such a tax; it was admitted by the avowed friends of the measure; Georgia, in particular, would be oppressed. On this account, it would be the most odious tax Congress could impose.

Mr. Schureman hoped the gentleman would withdraw his motion, because the present was not the time or place for introducing the business. He thought it had better be brought forward in the House as a distinct proposition. If the gentleman persisted in having the question determined, he would move the previous question, if he was supported.

Mr. Madison.—I cannot concur with gentlemen who think the present an improper time or place to enter into a discussion of the proposed motion. If it is taken up in a separate view, we shall do the same thing at a greater expense of time. But gentlemen say that it is improper to connect the two objects, because they do not come within the title of the bill; but this objection may be obviated by accommodating the title to the contents. There may be some inconsistency in combining the ideas which gentlemen have expressed, that is, considering the human race as a species of property; but the evil does not arise from adopting the clause now proposed; it is from the importation to which it relates. Our object in enumerating persons on paper with merchandise, is to prevent the practice of actually treating them as such, by having them in future forming part of the cargoes of goods, wares, and merchandise to be imported into the United States. The motion is calculated to avoid the very evil intimated by the gentleman.

It has been said that this tax will be partial and oppressive; but if a fair view is taken of this subject, I think we may form a different conclusion. But if it be partial or oppressive, are there not many instances in which we have laid taxes of this nature? Yet are they not thought to be justified by national policy? If any article is warranted on this account, how much more are we authorized to proceed on this occasion? The dictates of humanity, the principles of the people, the national safety and happiness, and prudent policy require it of us. The constitution has particularly called our attention to it; and of all the articles contained in the bill before us, this is one of the last I should be willing to make a concession upon, so far as I am at liberty to go, according to the terms of the constitution or principles of justice. I would not have it understood that my zeal would carry me to disobey the inviolable commands of either.

I understood it had been intimated, that the motion was inconsistent or unconstitutional. I believe, sir, my worthy colleague has formed the words with a particular reference to the constitution; any how, so far as the duty is expressed, it perfectly accords with that instrument. If there are any inconsistencies in it, they may be rectified. I believe the intention is well understood, but I am far from supposing the diction improper. If the description of the persons does not accord with the ideas of the gentleman from Georgia, (Mr. Jackson,) and his idea is a proper one for the committee to adopt, I see no difficulty in changing the phraseology.

I conceive the constitution, in this particular, was formed in order that the Government, whilst it was restrained from laying a total prohibition, might be able to give some testimony of the sense of America with respect to the African trade. We have liberty to impose a tax or duty upon the importation of such persons, as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit; and this liberty was granted, I presume, upon two considerations. The first was, that until the time arrived when they might abolish the importation of slaves, they might have an opportunity of evidencing their sentiments on the policy and humanity of such a trade. The other was, that they might be taxed in due proportion with other articles imported; for if the possessor will consider them as property, of course they are of value, and ought to be paid for. If gentlemen are apprehensive of oppression from the weight of the tax, let them make an estimate of its proportion, and they will find that it very little exceeds five per cent. ad valorem; so that they will gain very little by having them thrown into that mass of articles; whilst, by selecting them in the manner proposed, we shall fulfil the prevailing expectations of our fellow-citizens, and perform our duty in executing the purposes of the constitution. It is to be hoped, that by expressing a national disapprobation of this trade, we may destroy it, and save ourselves from reproaches, and our posterity the imbecility ever attendant on a country filled with slaves.

I do not wish to say any thing harsh to the hearing of gentlemen who entertain different sentiments from me, or different sentiments from those I represent; but if there is any one point in which it is clearly the policy of this nation, so far as we constitutionally can, to vary the practice obtaining under some of the State Governments, it is this. But it is certain a majority of the States are opposed to this practice; therefore, upon principle, we ought to discountenance it as far as is in our power.

If I were not afraid of being told that the Representatives of the several States are the best able to judge of what is proper and conducive to their particular prosperity, I should venture to say that it is as much the interest of Georgia and South Carolina as of any in the Union. Every addition they receive to their number of slaves, tends to weaken and render them less capable of self-defence. In case of hostilities with foreign nations, they will be the means of inviting attack, instead of repelling invasion. It is a necessary duty of the General Government to protect every part of the empire against danger, as well internal as external. Every thing, therefore, which tends to increase this danger, though it may be a local affair, yet, if it involves national expense or safety, becomes of concern to every part of the Union, and is a proper subject for the consideration of those charged with the general administration of the Government. I hope, in making these observations, I shall not be understood to mean that a proper attention ought not to be paid to the local opinions and circumstances of any part of the United States, or that the particular representatives are not best able to judge of the sense of their immediate constituents.

If we examine the proposed measure by the agreement there is between it and the existing State laws, it will show us that it is patronized by a very respectable part of the Union. I am informed that South Carolina has prohibited the importation of slaves for several years yet to come. We have the satisfaction, then, of reflecting that we do nothing more than their own laws do at this moment. This is not the case with one State. I am sorry that her situation is such as to seem to require a population of this nature; but it is impossible, in the nature of things, to consult the national good, without doing what we do not wish to do to some particular part.

Perhaps gentlemen contend against the introduction of the clause on too slight grounds. If it does not comport with the title of the bill, alter the latter. If it does not conform to the precise terms of the constitution, amend it. But if it will tend to delay the whole bill, that, perhaps, will be the best reason for making it the object of a separate one. If this be the sense of the committee, I shall submit.

Mr. Gerry thought all duties ought to be laid as equal as possible. He had endeavored to enforce this principle yesterday, but without the success he wished for; he was bound by the principle of justice, therefore, to vote for the proposition. But if the committee were desirous of considering the subject fully by itself, he had no objection; but he thought when gentlemen laid down a principle, they ought to support it generally.

Mr. Burke said, gentlemen were contending for nothing; that the value of a slave averaged about eighty pounds, and the duty on that sum at five per cent. would be ten dollars. As Congress could go no further than that sum, he conceived it made no difference whether they were enumerated or left in the common mass.

Mr. Madison.—If we contend for nothing, the gentlemen who are opposed to us do not contend for a great deal. But the question is, whether the five per cent. ad valorem, on all articles imported, will have any operation at all upon the introduction of slaves, unless we make a particular enumeration on this account. The collector may mistake; for he would not presume to apply the term goods, wares, and merchandise to any person whatsoever. But if that general definition of goods, wares, and merchandise, is supposed to include African slaves, why may we not particularly enumerate them, and lay the duty pointed out by the constitution, which, as gentlemen tell us, is no more than five per cent. upon their value. This will not increase the burthen upon any; but it will be that manifestation of our sense expected by our constituents, and demanded by justice and humanity.

Mr. Bland had no doubt of the propriety or good policy of this measure. He had made up his mind upon it; he wished slaves had never been introduced into America. But if it was impossible at this time to cure the evil, he was very willing to join in any measures that would prevent its extending further. He had some doubts whether the prohibitory laws of the States were not in part repealed. Those who had endeavored to discountenance this trade by laying a duty on the importation, were prevented by the constitution from continuing such regulation, which declares that no State shall lay any impost or duties on imports. If this were the case, and he suspected pretty strongly that it was, the necessity of adopting the proposition of his colleague was more apparent.

Mr. Sherman said the constitution does not consider these persons as species of property; it speaks of them as persons, and says, that a tax or duty may be imposed on the importation of them into any State which shall permit the same, but they have no power to prohibit such importation for twenty years. But Congress have power to declare upon what terms persons coming into the United States shall be entitled to citizenship; the rule of naturalization must, however, be uniform. He was convinced there were others who ought to be regulated in this particular, the importation of whom was of an evil tendency; he meant convicts particularly. He thought that some regulation respecting them was also proper; but it being a different subject, it ought to be taken up in a different manner.

Mr. Madison was led to believe, from the observation that had fallen from the gentlemen, that it would be best to make this the subject of a distinct bill: he, therefore, wished his colleague would withdraw his motion, and move in the House for leave to bring in a bill on the same principles.

Mr. Parker consented to withdraw his motion, under a conviction that the House was fully satisfied of its propriety. He knew very well that these persons were neither goods nor wares, but they were treated as articles of merchandise. Although he wished to get rid of this part of his property, yet he should not consent to deprive other people of theirs by any act of his, without their consent.

The committee rose, reported progress, and the House adjourned.

Friday, May 15.

Mr. White, one of the Representatives from Virginia, presented to the House a resolve of the Legislature of that State, of the 27th of December, 1788, offering to the acceptance of the Federal Government, ten miles square of territory, or any lesser quantity, in any part of that State, which Congress may choose, to be occupied and possessed by the United States, as the seat of the Federal Government; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

An engrossed bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises, imported into the United States, was read a third time, and, on a motion made, ordered to be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House immediately.

The House, accordingly, resolved itself into the said committee; and, after some time, the committee rose, and reported the bill with amendments, which were agreed to by the House.

Mr. Madison made a motion further to amend the said bill, by adding to the end thereof a clause for limiting the time of its continuance.

Mr. Ames expressed a doubt of the propriety of the motion. He thought the bill ought to be commensurate with the wants of Government.

Mr. Fitzsimons.—For want of a proper knowledge of the true situation of our affairs, we are unable to determine how far the present provision is equal to the necessities of the Union, and this circumstance will tend to add considerably to our embarrassment in limiting the duration. If we make the time too short to supply the public wants, we shall not hold out to the public creditors a sufficient security for the punctual payment of their debts. If we should want to raise money by a loan, we could only expect it according to the duration of the fund: this makes the present motion a subject of serious consideration. Not that I object to what the gentleman has in contemplation, but I wish such language to be used, that shall designate the continuation of the law to be till the wants are supplied and thereafter cease. I am not of opinion that it should be for half a century, because I hope our national debt will be extinguished in much less time; but really I must confess, at this moment, I feel considerable embarrassment in determining in my mind the period for which it should exist, whether an enumerated term of years, or a general declaration during the continuance of the public wants.

Mr. Lee thought the operation of the law could not be well understood; that it was a system of experiment, and ought to be temporary, in order that a future Congress might make such amendments as time should discover to be necessary. How perfect soever the theory might appear, practice might prove it otherwise; he therefore wished its operation limited for three or five years. He thought it would be wise in the House to adopt the motion, in order to prevent any injustice which a permanent and imperfect regulation might have on posterity. He expected this would beget confidence in the Government, which was to him a very desirable object.

Mr. White.—The constitution having authorized the House of Representatives alone to originate money bills, places an important trust in our hands, which, as their protectors, we ought not to part with. I do not mean to imply that the Senate are less to be trusted than this House; but the constitution, no doubt for wise purposes, has given the immediate Representatives of the People a control over the whole Government in this particular, which for their interest they ought not to let out of their hands. Besides, the constitution says further, that no appropriation shall be for a longer term than two years, which of consequence limits the duration of the revenue law to that period; when, if it is found conducive to the public welfare, it may be continued by the legislators appointed by the people, and who alone are authorized to declare upon this question in the first instance.

Mr. Livermore hoped but little time would be taken up in the discussion of this subject; the people were anxiously waiting the result of their deliberations; beside the impost was daily slipping away. He had no doubt of the propriety of the motion, because from the acknowledged imperfections of the bill, it would never do for a permanent system. If the people, who consider themselves subjected to very high and very unequal duties, find no termination of the grievance, they will immediately adopt measures in their defence, to thwart the views of Government; but if they understand the law as temporary, and only passed in order to gain experience for forming a better system, they will be induced to give it fair play, and bear the burthen without complaint, trusting to the wisdom and justice of Congress for such alterations as practice may show to be necessary.

Besides, the objects for which the revenue is now wanting, will decrease annually; this will be an additional reason for limiting its duration. He was not for a very short term; he thought five, seven, or ten years, would be more eligible than two or three, but he was decidedly against making it perpetual.

Mr. Sinnickson had understood, that one of the objects of the bill was the re-establishment of public credit; but it never could be imagined that a law, limited to three or four years, could do this in any great degree; nor could any advantage arise from loans negotiated and terminated within such a short period. Under these impressions, he conceived the motion struck at the credit of the new Government, which the people had just established.

Mr. Madison.—When he offered this amendment to the bill, he thought its propriety was so obvious and striking, that it would meet no opposition. To pass a bill, not limited in duration, which was to draw revenue from the pockets of the people, appeared to be dangerous in the administration of any Government; he hoped, therefore, the House would not be less cautious in this particular than other nations are, who profess to act upon sound principles. He imagined it might be considered by their constituents as incompatible with the spirit of the constitution, and dangerous to republican principles, to pass such a law unlimited in its duration.

Besides the restoration of public credit, he thought the act had in view the encouragement of a particular description of people, which might lead them into enterprises of a peculiar nature, for the protection of which the public faith seemed to be pledged. But would gentlemen infer from hence, that no alteration ought to take place if the manufactures were well established? The subject appeared to him in a twofold point of view; first, to provide for the exigencies of Government, and second, for the establishment of public credit; but he thought both these objects could be obtained without making the bill perpetual. If the Government showed a proper attention to the punctual performance of its engagements, it would obtain the latter; the other would be secured by making provision as the occasion demanded. If the bill was to be made perpetual, it would be continued after the purpose for which it was adopted had ceased; the error would in this case be irremediable; whereas, if its limitation was determined, it would always be in the power of the Government to make it commensurate with what the public debts and contingencies required.

The constitution, as had already been observed, places the power in the House of originating money bills. The principal reason why the constitution had made this distinction was, because they were chosen by the people, and supposed to be best acquainted with their interests and ability. In order to make them more particularly acquainted with these objects, the democratic branch of the Legislature consisted of a greater number, and were chosen for a shorter period, so that they might revert more frequently to the mass of the people. Now, if a revenue law was made perpetual, however unequal its operation might be, it would be out of the power of this House to effect an alteration; for if the President chose to object to the measure, it would require two-thirds of both Houses to carry it. Even if the House of Representatives were unanimous in their opinion that the law ought to be repealed, they would not be able to carry it, unless a great majority appeared in the Senate also.

Mr. Boudinot said, the time mentioned by the former Congress, and to which they requested the concurrence of the several States, was, that the impost duties might be continued for twenty-five years. This request was made on full consideration, and they did not think it was more than sufficient to discharge the principal and interest of the national debt. He concluded, therefore, that it was better to let the law remain without limitation; because when they found the purposes for which it was intended were accomplished, it would be in the power of Congress to repeal the law.

Mr. Lawrence thought the present was a subject of great importance, and he lamented it was not brought forward at an earlier period, because he feared the time would not allow that full discussion or deliberation which ought to take place. He wished also that the House was acquainted with the necessities of the United States, that so they might make provision accordingly; but these two points were mere matter of speculation as to their precise amount; yet he believed it was agreed on all hands, that the ways and means provided in this bill for the support of Government, the payment of interest and instalments of the foreign and domestic debt, were, so far as agreed to, inadequate to the object. If this be the case, the public debt must accumulate; and as we do not know when the time may come for its extinguishment, the provision cannot be limited; for every gentleman will agree, that if the demand for revenue be increased, the fund ought to be commensurate to the object. Is there any time when the civil list will cease its demand? If there is not, there will be a perpetual call for revenue. He thought it absolutely impossible to provide for the payment of the debts, if the bill was limited to two, three, or four years; such a precarious provision would never tend to the re-establishment of public credit. If the bill was not limited, it would always be in the power of the Legislature to lower the duties, or make such other alteration as might, upon experience, be thought beneficial to the community; whereas if the bill were limited, it would be thought improper to make any amendments during the term for which it is enacted, although those amendments appeared indispensably necessary. But why is this degree of caution necessary? Will not the administration of public affairs be conducted in future by representatives as good as ourselves? Will they have less wisdom or virtue, to discover and pursue the good of their fellow-citizens than we have?

Mr. Bland.—Our public credit consists of two branches: first, as it respects the evidences of our debt, in the hands of those from whom we have had money or services; and secondly, as it respects our ability to borrow in future. Now, the first branch of public credit depends upon the punctuality with which the interest is paid; but this in foreign nations, does not depend upon the limitation of the act. Do gentlemen suppose our laws, like those of the Medes and Persians, unchangeable? Can any person, who has read our constitution, believe that it is in our power to pass a law without limitation? No, it is impossible. Every person knows that a future Congress may repeal this and every other law we pass, whenever they think proper. The constitution had particularly intrusted the House of Representatives with the power of raising money; great care was necessary to preserve this privilege inviolate; it was one of the greatest securities the people had for their liberties under this Government. Moreover, the importance of the House itself depended upon holding the purse-strings; if they once part with this power, they would become insignificant, and the other branch of the Legislature might become altogether independent of them. For these reasons, he was in favor of the motion of his honorable colleague, and hoped it would obtain.

Mr. Gerry.—There seems to be a great variety of opinions entertained by gentlemen on this question. But he thought they would all agree on these two points: first, that there were very great demands upon the federal treasury; and, secondly, that they had no kind of documents to show what they were, or what the revenue bill would produce. Under these circumstances, gentlemen must agree, that there is danger of passing a law that would operate oppressively, and without reason. There was also danger of erring in the mode of collecting, for want of experience to guide them. From these considerations, there was no doubt but the act would require the reconsideration of the Legislature in a short time; there may be applications from the people of all quarters to repeal a part of it. But what are their immediate representatives to do, in case the bill be made perpetual? They may be convinced that a repeal would be just and necessary; but it may not be in their power to remedy the grievances of their constituents, however desirous they may be of doing so; for, although this House may originate and carry a bill unanimously through for the repeal, yet it will be in the power of the President, and the minority of the other branch of Congress, to prevent a repeal.

Mr. Huntingdon thought it easy to see the danger of making this bill perpetual: besides parting with the power which the constitution gave to the House of Representatives, in authorizing them solely to originate money bills, there would be another inconvenience, which was, extending the revenue beyond what the nature of the public debt required. The foreign debt was payable by instalments; it was saying nothing to allege that the debt would accumulate, because the United States must make provision for the annual extinguishment of a part. If the revenue, arising from the impost, be insufficient for this purpose, recourse must be had to some other fund, which will enable us to perform the engagements of the late Congress. It is true the debt is large, and will take time to pay it off, but he had no doubt but it would be done according to contract, and with honor to the Union. How, then, can gentlemen suppose the revenue ought to be perpetual, in order to be commensurate with the object? If they contemplated the contraction of more debts in future, the supposition might be true; but he saw no reason why gentlemen should extend their views so far. He thought if a future war, or some other untoward circumstance, should increase the national debt, it ought to be provided for by the Government who were acquainted with the necessity. He thought the House ought to consider seriously before they parted with their powers; it was easy for them to pass a bill to give power, but it was difficult to recall it. He had seen many instances of this kind; one in particular in the State from which he came, where the Legislature had given the appointment of sheriffs, and some other little matters, out of their hands, and had been a long time endeavoring to get it back; but they had not been able to obtain it. He had no suspicions of any character in the Senate, but the constitution had made that body in some degree perpetual, to obtain a permanency in the laws; if, therefore, this revenue bill had once their approbation, they might be inclined to continue it, even against the sentiments of the people and of the House. Though he was not against trusting the gentlemen who now composed the Senate, he was against trusting their successors.

Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, was also in favor of the clause; he conceived the only reason of weight urged against it, related to the restoration of public credit; but he thought every person possessed of the stock or debt of the United States would have the same feelings and reasoning as the House; they would know that their demands depended upon a higher source than Congress, and might be sure that we would do our duty in making particular provision. If Congress neglected this, one part of the creditors would compel them. If it was found that the United States were not disposed to pay their debts, foreigners would find the means to make them. Taking it therefore for granted, that Congress would always provide for these objects, he would proceed to consider what effect might arise from a permanent or temporary provision. If the latter were made, the creditors would honor us for our exertions, and confide in our continuing to provide for them in the manner we should find upon experience most convenient to the community. If the system was declared to be a perpetual provision for the payment of their interest, it would give no hope, in the first place, for the redemption of the capital; and in the second, if Congress were to alter it, and which, in all probability they shortly must, the security would be impaired, and an essential injury done to the public credit, which we are so desirous to revive.

Mr. Ames considered this as a very important question; and in order that his own mind might be fully enlightened, he had listened with the most unwearied attention to the arguments urged on both sides; but he was far from being satisfied that the motion was necessary or proper for the House to adopt.

Gentlemen tell us they are willing to make the revenue commensurate with the debt. If they do this, all the inconveniences resulting from the imperfection of the system will be entailed upon us for a number of years. Other gentlemen mention a year or two for its limitation. Can the House listen seriously to such a proposition? If we were to tell our creditors that we are making provision for them for one year, would it tend to inspire them with confidence in our wisdom or justice? Would our foreign creditors believe we were scrupulously fulfilling our engagements with them? No: nothing less than a fixed, permanent system, can beget confidence or give security. An illusory system of one or two years' duration would engender distrust; its very visage would make the public suspect deception. If we do not mean to deceive, why not make the provision commensurate to the occasion? His idea of a temporary act was pro hac vice, by way of experiment: but he thought the House could not make the experiment with this bill, because the public credit would not admit of it. If this act be made for one year, will it not be a considerable expense to the public by going over all the ground again, which had taken the House such a length of time to discuss?

What has been the conduct of Great Britain, in relation to her funds? What has carried the credit of that kingdom to a superior eminence, but the attention she has paid to public credit? He considered these advantages as having made that nation rich and powerful. He believed a like conduct on our part would produce the same consequences, because our Government is of such a nature as to give the public creditors the greatest security they could wish. If the revenue is appropriated, and the law for collecting it is without any limitation, the funds cannot be taken away without a positive act of injustice, to which both Houses of the Legislature must assent by a majority of two-thirds, or three independent parties must unite. It was therefore three to one in favor of the public creditor, that the funds appropriated to his use would not be annihilated. Under these circumstances, Government might more safely be trusted. This, he observed, was not the case under despotic princes; their will alone could tear away the security of the subject. Under a pure democracy, the case was almost as bad; no confidence could be placed, because the caprice and whim of one body could dictate a change.

Mr. Page expressed his surprise to find gentlemen opposed to the limitation of the bill, who had complained so much of its imperfections. He thought a measure of the kind now proposed absolutely necessary to reconcile these gentlemen to particular parts of the bill. For his own part, he had objections to some articles, and for that reason, if there was no other, he would be in favor of the limitation. It had been frequently asserted that half the revenue would be lost by smuggling. Can this, then, he would ask, be a bill proper to perpetuate, or fit for the restoration of the credit of the United States? He asked gentlemen whether they would lend a hand to rivet round the necks of their fellow-citizens a regulation which experience had convinced them was unjust, unequal, and oppressive? Yet the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Ames) had declared that experience had convinced him that at least one particular article was subjected to a duty of this kind.

Mr. Gerry asked his colleague if he advocated carrying the taxes to such an extent as to accumulate sums in the treasury for which the United States had no particular use? Yet if this revenue law were made perpetual, it would collect money into the public coffers after the national debt was paid. This would be such a temptation to the Executive to possess itself by force of the treasures of the nation, as he hoped would never be put in its way. If our commerce and population increased, this revenue would increase in the same proportion. He could not, therefore, bear the idea of all this money being collected into one spot, unless there was an absolute demand for it. He thought it incompatible with the liberty and security of the people, and therefore hoped the House would agree to a short limitation.

Mr. Madison, for the sake of accommodation, would make another proposition. He was extremely sorry to differ with gentlemen about modes, when their object appeared to be the same. He thought the spirit of the constitution and the structure of the Government rendered it improper to pass a perpetual revenue law. The arguments had been clear on this point; but as there was an evident propriety in making the means commensurate to the occasion, he was inclined to give the bill such a perpetuity as would answer the purpose of providing for the public debt and restoring the national credit. He thought this might be done by modifying his motion so as to refer to the collection bill; for he hoped, before that passed, the House would be able to ascertain the appropriation, and could limit it accordingly. The words he would propose were, that this act should not continue and be in force longer than the —— day of ——, unless otherwise limited by the act providing for the appropriation. As he had heard it intimated that the yeas and nays would be called on this question, he was desirous of rendering the clause as satisfactory as possible.

Mr. Ames could not bear to lie under the imputation of inconsistency, with which he was charged, inasmuch as he contended against the limitation of a bill he had opposed as oppressive in some of its parts. He believed the amendment now offered was new to almost every gentleman. For his part, he had always supposed it was intended as a permanent system. He remembered many gentlemen made use of this expression, through the various debates which had taken place in the several stages of the bill. He had understood it in this light, and had therefore combated, with some degree of energy, such parts as appeared to him impolitic or unjust. He imagined the gentlemen on both sides had labored to make the bill as perfect as possible, with a view of making an equitable provision for the public exigencies, which should affect all parts of the Union with the greatest degree of impartiality.

Mr. Sherman observed, that when Congress applied to the several States for the five per cent. impost, they judged it would enable them to extinguish the national debt in twenty-five years; but, in addition to this fund, they expected to make annual requisitions on the States, for one and a half million of dollars at least; so that gentlemen could not expect the whole to be paid by this single fund in a short time. He wished a limitation to the law in general terms, such as until the debt, foreign and domestic, is discharged. He thought a short term would made an unfavorable impression upon the minds of the public creditors, and tend in a great measure to cloud the happy prospects that began to brighten the political hemisphere of this country.

Mr. Gerry expressed an intention of calling the yeas and nays if he was supported, because he thought it a question in which the essential interests of the people were deeply involved.

Mr. Lawrence said, he held his present opinion upon the purest principles of patriotism, and an ardent love for his country's happiness. He had no objection to the yeas and nays being taken, as he was not inclined to disguise his sentiments.

Mr. Page was glad the yeas and nays were called, as it would give gentlemen an opportunity of showing to their constituents their approbation of a measure calculated to secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and posterity.

Several members rose to speak on this question, when Mr. Ames moved the adjournment, fearing gentlemen would grow warm upon the question.

Whereupon, the House adjourned.

Saturday, May 16.

Mr. Seney, from Maryland, presented to the House an act of the Legislature of that State, offering to the acceptance of Congress ten miles square of territory, in any part of the said State, for the seat of the Federal Government, which was read and ordered to lie on the table.

Duties on Imports.

The House resumed the consideration of the amendment proposed yesterday to the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States, and the said amendment read as follows: "And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, that this act shall be in force until the —— day of ——, and from thence until the end of the next session of Congress which shall happen thereafter."

The question was called for, and Mr. Lawrence required the ayes and noes.

Mr. Jackson wished to say a few words on the bill. The ayes and noes being called for, he conceived it his duty to state his reasons for his vote. He declared himself to be in favor of the limitation, for the reasons offered by honorable gentlemen yesterday. He said he had as ardent a desire to re-establish public credit, and place it on a good footing, as any member on that floor, yet he did not think making this law perpetual would have that tendency. He had no doubt but every subsequent Legislature would be equally desirous of doing justice to the creditors of the Union, and he therefore felt no uneasiness in leaving such provision to be made by them. If the next Legislature were disposed to violate the public honor, would the law now under consideration stand in their way? For his part, he could not conceive it an insuperable bar. He believed there was not a member who liked every part of the bill. Under these circumstances, what was to be expected but complaints from the people, and a consequent repeal of the bill? He did not wish to insinuate that the Senate would be so depraved as to oppose the public voice, but they might misunderstand it; they were a permanent body, and might be more inclined to support what they considered the honor of the Government than the convenience of the people.

The House of Representatives appeared to him to be the body best calculated to know and feel the interests of their immediate constituents; they ought, therefore, to preserve the power of redressing grievances, and not give too much into the hands of the Senate. He acknowledged the claims which those that fought and bled for their country had upon the justice of Congress; but he did not believe that class of citizens would complain or murmur at this House for keeping the purse strings in their hands, when it was considered necessary to the security and happiness of the people.

Mr. White did not see the necessity of calling the yeas and nays: he thought the measure was intended to have one of these two objects, either to show one part of the House had mistaken the interest of their country, and ought to be held up to posterity, in order that their memories may be charged with their want of knowledge; or that there is a part of this House who think themselves more wise and patriotic than the majority. He never called the yeas and nays in his life, nor believed he ever should; but he was willing to have his vote appear, in all cases, when gentlemen thought proper to perpetuate the decision of the House in that way. On this occasion he would vote in favor of the amendment, and would endeavor to answer the objections, which, if well founded, would be a subject of great uneasiness in his mind, considering how he intended to give his vote.

He would now proceed to examine, whether rendering this law perpetual would be a wise and prudent measure. It had been well observed by the gentleman from Georgia, (Mr. Jackson,) that every part of the law would bear harder on some States than on others; perhaps there was no State in the Union which would not be in some degree dissatisfied. He could perceive, by the sentiments of gentlemen in this House, that the burthens would be peculiarly felt; under these impressions, gentlemen have expressed themselves more warmly than perhaps they ought. There had been predictions of the most dangerous consequences of high duties, which he would not repeat; if these dangers were not imaginary, would it be prudent in the House, to risk these consequences, and make these dangers unavoidable by rendering the law perpetual.

Much pains had been taken to impose the burthens as equally as possible. If the duty on molasses bears hard upon one State, the tonnage duty would bear equally so upon others. But still it is probable, that there are unequal pressures laid by the bill, which experience alone could enable the Legislature to alter to the satisfaction of all parties. The system was great, complex, and comprehensive; it embraces commerce, manufactures, agriculture, finance, and, in short, every thing in which a nation can be concerned. Will it be prudent, then, under our present disadvantages, and without information, to enact a law affecting the highest interests of the people, which can never be repealed but by the consent of three independent bodies? Gentlemen have told us, that no valuable purpose can be answered by making the law temporary; now, he thought a valuable purpose could be answered by it. The two Houses of Congress, with the qualified negative of the President, formed the legislative power of the United States; they are distinct powers to be exercised by both branches of the Legislature. The House had been told, on a former occasion, that the Senate possessed greater powers than the Representatives. He admitted that, in some instances, they had greater powers; but with respect to revenue matters, they certainly had less, and very properly so. Shall we then give up to a body, who has already a superiority over us, those superior powers which we possess relative to revenue? A perpetual system would give the Senate greater advantages than constitutionally they ought to enjoy. He thought it of little consequence for the House to possess the right of originating money bills, if those money bills were made perpetual. The exercise of this right would be lost, and he thought it necessary that every part of Government should feel itself dependent upon the people. We have been told, with truth, that the Senate are a virtuous body; they are so, and he hoped would remain so, for ages yet to come, nay for ever; and, in his legislative capacity, he would act upon no other supposition. But still it ought to be remembered, that they would always be men, and liable to all the errors, frailties, and infirmities, with the rest of their fellow-mortals; besides, they were constituted in some measure for purposes to which the other branch was incompetent; while this House was constituted for purposes for which the Senate is unequal. It is a well-grounded republican maxim, that taxation and representation should depend each on the other. The people should be taxed only by representatives chosen for that purpose. This principle was written in the hearts of our British ancestors; it had been maintained by the best blood of our citizens, and he hoped it would descend with the fullest energy to our posterity. What, said he, are we about to do? A great branch of revenue, indeed the only branch, to which an application is now proper, or expected by the people, is about to be put out of our hands for ever; for it would not be in the power of this House, or any future House, to annihilate those funds without the consent of the Senate and the concurrence of the President. Now, the Senate are not an equal representation of the people; in that body the States have equal numbers, while, in this House, the representation is proportioned to their population. Delaware sends one, Georgia three, and Virginia ten. Is it possible, in the nature of things, that two Senators can be as well acquainted with the feelings and interest of the people of Virginia, as ten men selected from among them, and taken from the several parts of the State? Will the people be satisfied to have that body able to continue a revenue system which their immediate representatives think oppressive, or perhaps unnecessary? Certainly they would not; whatever the wisdom and virtue of the Senate may be, he was convinced they were not competent to those peculiar objects for which a just representation was absolutely necessary. The Senate, it is true, is not a House of Lords; they do not possess any properties materially distinguishing them from the members of the House of Representatives; but, though the distinction is not so striking in the one case as in the other, yet it was nevertheless real. The House of Lords is created by the King, and is a permanent body; the Senate is chosen by the State Legislatures, and though the individuals have not a permanency in office, yet the body never ceases to exist. These circumstances, in the constitution of the Senate, afforded a powerful objection to the new system of Government, and the people would never have adopted it, had they supposed that the powers of this body were unlimited in continuing a system of taxation, which had at any time met the approbation of their particular representatives.[23]

Mr. Tucker did not think it necessary to give his opinion otherwise than by his vote, because gentlemen, who had yesterday delivered their sentiments in favor of the clause, had anticipated what he had to say. But as he found himself influenced by the call for the ayes and noes on this question, he should be induced to state some of his reasons in favor of the amendment. He said, he was glad the ayes and noes had been called, and if it had not been done by any other gentleman, he should have conceived himself bound to have done it; because he did not think himself at liberty, but on very particular occasions, to make a law perpetual. He wished to see a doctrine established, never to pass a law without limitation, unless justified by some extraordinary circumstances. Nothing, he thought, could ever justify such an act but the immutability of the object, and the absolute necessity and simplicity of every thing relating to it. If the House passed a perpetual revenue law, which had not an immutable object, they would abridge their own power, and destroy one of the great privileges of the people. Every bill of this nature, more or less, narrows the powers of this House, and throws it into the hands of the Executive and a minority of the Senate; for it is to be considered, that whenever we pass a bill on any subject, every matter in that bill contained is given up to the Executive and one-third of the Senators, so much so that it is out of the power of this House, even with a unanimous vote, to recover any part of it.

Mr. Sylvester was in favor of the limitation clause. A good deal had been said in the House respecting the jarring interests of the several States. It had been confessed on all hands, that this was an experimental law: he viewed it as such, and expected, in the course of a few years, the Legislature would be able to discover the errors of this day. But what advantage can result from their knowledge, if they have not power to make the necessary alterations, or to build up a new system more perfect than the old? He had examined the annals of history, but was unable to discover that any nation had ever established a perpetual revenue law. He imagined gentlemen would admit these reasons to be sufficient to warrant the vote they were about to give.

Mr. Sinnickson did not expect this was to be a perpetual law, incapable of alteration; but he wished to see it a permanent system. The idea of a temporary system was long ago said to be out of the contemplation of the House. He should only observe, in addition to this, that our credit depended essentially upon what should be done at this time. He thought if the revenue existed merely upon the breath of the Legislature, for one or two years at a time, we should never attain that object. He thought that the public good required something substantial to be done in favor of those who had lent the public money in the hour of distress.

Mr. Boudinot thought himself obliged to say a few words more, in order to justify the part he should take in the division of the House on this question. He conceived the manner in which the motion was brought before the House, after the bill was supposed to be gone through, did not give such opportunity for the members to consider the subject as its importance seemed to require, and which might have been had if it had been brought forward at an earlier period.

If, said he, we are to have the measures of the Parliament of Great Britain hung about our necks in all our public proceedings, and observations from their practice perpetually sounding in our ears, that practice ought to be defined and established. He believed that in the whole volumes of the statute law, there was not one single revenue act to be found with a limitation. He believed that the revenue laws, passed fifty, sixty, eighty, and near a hundred years ago, in that kingdom, existed at the present moment. We have long seen and been convinced of the infirmities of the former confederation, and shall we now rivet those infirmities upon the present constitution? Are we never to stand upon a certain and solid foundation? Is not our public credit totally gone? Has not experience convinced us that the loss of it would have been our total destruction, if the generous exertions we have lately made had not revived some degree of confidence in our future measures? Are we not so deeply in debt as to give us reason to believe that it will require many years to emancipate ourselves? If this is the case, will a revenue law for one or two years bring that relief which is expected? Will this prevent an increase of the public debt? Will it restore value to the evidences of that debt held by our creditors? He would ask any man, whether, if the United States were in the situation in which they were last war, he would be induced to lend money upon a temporary and inadequate fund provided for two years? He believed the answer would be in the negative.

Mr. Madison withdrew his motion in order to introduce another, which he hoped would reconcile both sides of the House. He joined those gentlemen who opposed the clause in thinking that one or two years would be a period insufficient to answer the purposes in contemplation. If the House agree to the clause he would substitute for the one just withdrawn, he would move to fill the blank with a more distant day. His motion was, that this act shall not continue in force after the —— day of —— unless otherwise provided in the act for the appropriation of the revenue.

Mr. Fitzsimons seconded the motion.

Mr. Sherman liked this motion better than the other. Although he was in favor of leaving the law at large, he would vote for this clause, if the blanks were filled up with a sufficient time to accomplish those objects which the Government had in view in providing revenue.

Mr. Ames thought the question would recur when the appropriation or collecting bill came before them; he would rather, for his own part, decide the question at this moment, than consume the time of the House with another debate. Besides the House was not in possession of an act for appropriating the revenue; such a measure might never be agreed to; therefore he hoped the decision would take place at this time rather than be evaded.

Mr. Fitzsimons was of opinion, that this revenue ought to be appropriated to the payment of the public debts; what were the views of other gentlemen he could not say. He was nevertheless in favor of limiting the law, and that upon constitutional principles, though he wished it commensurate to its object. Gentlemen had said a great deal respecting the imperfection of the system, that it was the effect of compromise; but nevertheless, he thought it as free from defects as it was possible a revenue system could be formed with such materials as the House possessed; but if it was imperfect, he did not see the difficulties some gentlemen mentioned, in altering and amending it when experience shall have pointed out its defects.

Mr. Boudinot acquiesced in the motion now brought forward for the sake of accommodation, although he thought the bill would stand better without any limitation clause whatever.

Mr. Page was against the latter part of this clause. It had been justly said, that the bill would be oppressive; but, from the necessity of the times, the people will submit to it. Shall we not let them see the end of their burthen in the law itself? Are they to look into another bill for that purpose? Perhaps after the Senate have agreed to this act, they may oppose the limitation in the subsequent one; they may insist upon having this in perpetuity, and then the object which the House have in view will be defeated.

Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, moved a division of the question.

Mr. Lee wished to strike out that part of the motion which related to the exception.

Mr. Livermore seconded Mr. Lee.

The question was put, and that part of the clause lost.

The question now stood as originally introduced to the House.

The previous question was then demanded by five members: Shall the main question be now put? And on the question, shall the main question be now put? it was resolved in the affirmative.

And then the main question being put, that the House do agree to the amendment proposed to the said bill, it was resolved in the affirmative—ayes 41, noes 8.

The ayes and noes being called for by one-fifth of the members present:

Those who voted in the affirmative, are,

Messrs. Abraham Baldwin, Egbert Benson, Theodorick Bland, Ædanus Burke, Daniel Carroll, Isaac Coles, Benjamin Contee, Thomas Fitzsimons, William Floyd, George Gale, Elbridge Gerry, Nicholas Gilman, Benjamin Goodhue, Samuel Griffin, Jonathan Grout, John Hathorn, Daniel Heister, Benjamin Huntington, James Jackson, Richard Bland Lee, George Leonard, Samuel Livermore, James Madison, junior, Andrew Moore, Peter Muhlenberg, John Page, Josiah Parker, George Partridge, Jeremiah Van Rensselaer, Joshua Seney, Thomas Scott, William Smith, William Smith, of South Carolina, Jonathan Sturgis, Peter Sylvester, Jonathan Trumbull, Thos. Tudor Tucker, John Vining, Jeremiah Wadsworth, Alexander White, and Henry Wynkoop.

Those who voted in the negative, are,

Messrs. Fisher Ames, Elias Boudinot, Lambert Cadwalader, George Clymer, John Lawrence, Roger Sherman, Thomas Sinnickson, and George Thatcher.

The clause being added, it was agreed to fill the blank so as to read the first day of June, 1796.

Ordered, That the said bill, with the amendments, be engrossed, and read the third time to-day.[24]

Monday, May 18.

Resolved, That leave be given to bring in a bill concerning the importation of certain persons into the United States, prior to the year 1808, and that Mr. Parker, Mr. Sinnickson, and Mr. Muhlenberg, do prepare and bring in the same.

Tuesday, May 19.

Executive Departments.

On motion of Mr. Boudinot, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union. Mr. Trumbull in the chair.

Mr. Boudinot.—I rise, Mr. Chairman, with diffidence, to introduce a subject to the consideration of the committee, which I had hopes would have been brought forward by an abler hand; the pressing necessity of it must alone be my excuse. The great executive departments which were in existence under the late confederation, are now at an end, at least so far as not to be able to conduct the business of the United States. If we take up the present constitution, we shall find it contemplates departments of an executive nature in aid of the President: it then remains for us to carry this intention into effect, which I take it will be best done by settling principles for organizing them in this place, and afterwards appoint a select committee to bring in a bill for the same.

I need say little to convince gentlemen of the necessity which presses us into a pursuit of this measure. They know that our national debt is considerable; the interest on our foreign loans, and the instalments due, amount to two millions of dollars. This arrearage, together with the domestic debt, is of great magnitude, and it will be attended with the most dreadful consequences to let these affairs run into confusion and ruin, for want of proper regulations to keep them in order.

I shall move the committee therefore to come to some such resolution as this: That an officer be established for the management of the finances of the United States, at the head of which shall be an officer to be denominated the Secretary of Finance. I am not tenacious of the style, perhaps some other may be proper, but the object I have in view is to establish the department; after which we may go on to narrate the duties of the officer, and accommodate the name to the acts he is to perform. The departments under the late constitution are not to be models for us to form ours upon by reason of the essential change which has taken place in the Government, and the new distribution of legislative, executive, and judicial powers.

If gentlemen then agree with me so far, I shall proceed to restrain the Secretary of Finance, and all persons under him, from being concerned in trade or commerce, and make it his duty to superintend the treasury and the finances of the United States, examine the public debts and engagements, inspect the collection and expenditure of the revenue, and to form and digest plans for its improvement. There may be other duties which gentlemen may add, as I do not pretend to have perfectly enumerated them all. After this point is settled, we may then go to the consideration of the War Department, and the Department of Foreign Affairs; but, for the present, I would wish to confine ourselves to the Department of Finance.

Mr. Benson wished the committee to consider what he judged to be a previous question, namely, how many departments there should be established? He approved of the division mentioned by the gentleman; but would, with his leave, move that there be established in aid of the Chief Magistrate, three executive departments, to be severally denominated the Department of Foreign Affairs, Treasury, and War. After determining this question, if it was a proper division, the committee might proceed to enumerate the duties which should be attached to each.

Mr. Boudinot said, he could apologize for not bringing the business on in another way. It seemed to be a settled point in the House that a Committee of the Whole was the proper place for determining principles before they were sent elsewhere; he had therefore adopted that mode on the present occasion, though his own judgment would incline him to pursue that last mentioned by the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Bland.) He conceived the necessity of having such an office was indisputable; the Government could not be carried on without it; but there may be a question with respect to the mode in which the business of the office shall be conducted; there may also be a question respecting the constitution of it, but none with respect to the establishment of either of the three departments he had mentioned.

Mr. Benson said, his motion was founded upon the constitutional division of these powers; the constitution contemplated them, because it gave the President the right of requiring the opinion of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices. If gentlemen were inclined to waive the determination for the present, he had no objection; it was certainly a subject of great importance, and required time for consideration.

Mr. Vining thought the gentleman should have added another department, viz: the Home Department. The territorial possessions of the United States, and the domestic affairs, would be objects of the greatest magnitude, and he suspected would render it essentially requisite to establish such a one.

Mr. Boudinot wished to confine the question to the Department of Finance.

A motion was made by Mr. Bland for the committee's rising.

Mr. Madison hoped they would not rise until the principles were settled. He thought it much better to determine the outlines of all business in a Committee of the Whole. He was satisfied it would be found, on experience, to shorten their deliberations. If the gentlemen who had offered motions to the committee would withdraw them, he would offer one which he judged likely to embrace the intentions of both gentlemen.