SECOND CONGRESS.—SECOND SESSION.

PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, November 5, 1792.

This being the day appointed by law for the meeting of the present Congress, the following members appeared, produced their credentials, and took their seats:

From New Hampshire, Nicholas Gilman, Samuel Livermore, and Jeremiah Smith.

From Massachusetts, Fisher Ames, Shearjashur Bourne, Elbridge Gerry, Benjamin Goodhue, George Thatcher, and Artemas Ward.

From Rhode Island, George Leonard, Benjamin Bourne.

From Connecticut, Amasa Learned, Jonathan Sturges, and Jonathan Trumbull, (Speaker.)

From Vermont, Nathaniel Niles and Israel Smith.

From New York, Egbert Benson, John Laurance, and Thomas Tredwell.

From New Jersey, Elias Boudinot, Abraham Clark, and Jonathan Dayton.

From Pennsylvania, Thomas Fitzsimons and Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg.

From Maryland, Philip Key and William Vans Murray.

From Virginia, William B. Giles, James Madison, Andrew Moore, Josiah Parker, Abraham Venable, and Alexander White.

From North Carolina, Nathaniel Macon, John Steele, and Hugh Williamson.

From South Carolina, William Smith, Thomas Sumter, and Thomas Tudor Tucker.

From Georgia, Abraham Baldwin and Francis Willis.

A quorum of members being present, a message was sent to the Senate to inform that body thereof. And a similar message was received by the House from the Senate; and that John Langdon had been chosen their President pro tempore.

A joint committee were then appointed to wait on the President of the United States, to inform him that a quorum of the two Houses is assembled, and ready to receive any communications he may think proper to make them.

Resolved, That two Chaplains, of different denominations, be appointed to Congress, one by each House, to interchange weekly.

The House then proceeded to appoint a Chaplain on their part, when a majority of votes appeared in favor of the Reverend Ashbel Green.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Governor of Georgia, enclosing a proclamation and return of the election of John Milledge, to serve as one of the members of this House for the said State, in the room of Anthony Wayne, whose seat was declared vacant; which was read and ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. Boudinot, from the joint committee appointed to wait on the President of the United States, and notify him that a quorum of the two Houses is assembled and ready to receive any communications he may be pleased to make to them, reported that the committee had performed that service, and that the President was pleased to say, that he would make a communication to both Houses of Congress to-morrow, at twelve o'clock in the Senate Chamber.

Tuesday, November 6.

Several other members, viz: from New York, James Gordon; from Pennsylvania, John Wilkes Kittera; and from Virginia, Samuel Griffin and John Page, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

A message from the Senate informed the House that the Senate are now ready, in the Senate Chamber, to attend this House in receiving the communication from the President of the United States, agreeably to his notification to both Houses yesterday.

The Speaker, attended by the members of this House, then withdrew to the Senate Chamber for the purpose expressed in the message from the Senate; and, being returned, the Speaker laid before the House a copy of the Speech delivered by the President of the United States to both Houses of Congress, in the Senate Chamber. [A copy of the Speech appears in the proceedings of the Senate.]

Ordered, That the said Speech be committed to the consideration of a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.

Wednesday, November 7.

Defeat of General St. Clair.

Ordered, That the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the late expedition under Major General St. Clair, which was made on the 8th day of May last, be referred to the consideration of a Committee of the whole House on Wednesday next.

Answer to the President.

The order of the day being called for, (Mr. Laurance in the chair,) the Speech of the President, delivered yesterday to Congress, was taken up; and, on motion of Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, the following resolve was agreed to: "That a committee be appointed to prepare and report a respectful Address to the President of the United States, in answer to his Speech delivered to both Houses of Congress at the opening of the present session; with assurances, that they would take into consideration the important matters therein contained." An amendment was now moved, to strike out the word "important;" but it was negatived, as being a word of too much importance to be neglected. The resolution was carried, in substance, as above, and the committee rose and reported it. The House immediately agreed, and a committee of three—Messrs. Madison, Benson, and Murray—were appointed by the Speaker to prepare the answer in conformity with the said resolve.

The following Message was received from the President of the United States:

Gentlemen of the Senate, and of the House of Representatives:

I lay before you copies of certain papers relative to the Spanish interference in the execution of the treaty entered into in the year 1790, between the United States, and the Creek nation of Indians, together with a letter from the Secretary of State to the President of the United States, on the same subject.

G. WASHINGTON.

United States, November 7, 1792.

The papers accompanying the said message were read and ordered to lie on the table.

The Speaker laid before the House two letters from Thomas Barclay, Consul of the United States at the Court of Morocco, one dated the 28th of May, the other the 17th of July, 1792, enclosing petitions from Richard O'Brien, in behalf of himself and other citizens of the United States, now in captivity at Algiers, stating the peculiar hardships they have undergone during the time they have been kept in slavery, and praying that Congress will consider their distressed situation, and take such measures for their releasement as to their wisdom shall seem meet.

Ordered, That the said letters and petitions be referred to the Secretary of State, for information.

Thursday, November 8.

Several other members, to wit: from Connecticut, James Hillhouse; from Pennsylvania, William Findlay and Israel Jacobs; and from Kentucky, Alexander D. Orr, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Saturday, November 10.

Two other members, to wit: Peter Sylvester, from New York, and Thomas Hartley, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Address to the President.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Address to the President of the United States, in answer to his Speech to both Houses of Congress; and, after some time spent therein, the Speaker resumed the chair, and Mr. Laurance reported that the committee had had the said Address under consideration, and made several amendments thereto; which were severally twice read, and agreed to by the House.

And then the said Address, as amended, being again read, was, on the question put thereon, agreed to by the House, as follows:

"Sir: The House of Representatives, who always feel a satisfaction in meeting you, are much concerned that the occasion for mutual felicitation afforded by the circumstances favorable to the national prosperity should be abated by a continuance of the hostile spirit of many of the Indian tribes, and, particularly, that the reiterated efforts for effecting a general pacification with them should have issued in new proofs of their persevering enmity, and the barbarous sacrifice of citizens, who, as the messengers of peace, were distinguishing themselves by their zeal for the public service. In our deliberations on this important department of our affairs, we shall be disposed to pursue every measure that may be dictated by the sincerest desire, on one hand, of cultivating peace, and manifesting, by every practicable regulation, our benevolent regard for the welfare of those misguided people; and by the duty we feel, on the other, to provide effectually for the safety and protection of our fellow-citizens.

"While with regret we learn that symptoms of opposition to the law imposing duties on spirits distilled within the United States, have manifested themselves, we reflect with consolation, that they are confined to a small portion of our fellow-citizens. It is not more essential to the preservation of true liberty, that a Government should be always ready to listen to the representations of its constituents, and to accommodate its measures to the sentiments and wishes of every part of them, as far as will consist with the good of the whole, than it is, that the just authority of the laws should be steadfastly maintained. Under this impression, every department of the Government, and all good citizens must approve the measures you have taken, and the purpose you have formed, to execute this part of your trust with firmness and energy; and be assured, sir, of every constitutional aid and co-operation, which may become requisite on our part. And we hope that, while the progress of contentment under the law in question, is as obvious as it is rational, no particular part of the community may be permitted to withdraw from the general burdens of the country, by a conduct as irreconcilable to national justice, as it is inconsistent with public decency.

"The productive state of the public revenue, and the confirmation of the credit of the United States abroad, evinced by the loans at Antwerp and Amsterdam, are communications the more gratifying, as they enforce the obligation to enter on systematic and effectual arrangements for discharging the public debt, as fast as the conditions of it will permit; and we take pleasure in the opportunity to assure you of our entire concurrence in the opinion, that no measure can be more desirable, whether viewed with an eye to the urgent wish of the community, or the intrinsic importance of promoting so happy a change in our situation.

"The adoption of a constitution for the State of Kentucky, is an event on which we join in all the satisfaction you have expressed. It may be considered as particularly interesting, since, besides the immediate benefits resulting from it, it is another auspicious demonstration of the facility and success with which an enlightened people is capable of providing, by free and deliberate plans of government, for their own safety and happiness.

"The operation of the law establishing the Post Office, as it relates to the transmission of newspapers, will merit our particular inquiry and attention, the circulation of political intelligence through these vehicles being justly reckoned among the surest means of preventing the degeneracy of a free government, as well as of recommending every salutary public measure to the confidence and co-operation of all virtuous citizens.

"The several other matters which you have communicated and recommended, will, in their order, receive the attention due to them, and our discussions will, in all cases, we trust, be guided by a proper respect for harmony and stability in the public Councils, and a desire to conciliate, more and more, the attachment of our constituents to the constitution, by measures accommodated to the true ends for which it was established."

Resolved, That the Speaker, attended by the House, do present the said Address, and that Mr. Madison, Mr. Benson, and Mr. Murray, be a committee to wait on the President, to know when and where it will be convenient for him to receive the same.

Mr. Madison, from the committee appointed to wait on the President of the United States, to know when and where it will be convenient for him to receive the Address of this House, in answer to his Speech to both Houses of Congress, reported that the committee had waited on the President, who signified to them that it would be convenient to him to receive the said Address at 12 o'clock on Monday next, at his own house.

Monday, November 12.

Another member, to wit, John Baptist Ashe, from North Carolina, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Address to the President.

The Speaker, attended by the House, then withdrew to the house of the President of the United States, and there presented to him the Address of this House, in answer to his Speech to both Houses of Congress; to which the President made the following reply:

"Gentlemen: It gives me pleasure to express to you the satisfaction which your Address affords me. I feel, as I ought, the approbation you manifest of the measures I have taken, and the purpose I have formed, to maintain, pursuant to the trust reposed in me by the constitution, the respect which is due to the laws; and the assurance which you, at the same time, give me, of every constitutional aid and co-operation that may become requisite on your part.

"This is a new proof of that enlightened solicitude for the establishment and confirmation of public order, which, embracing a zealous regard for the principles of true liberty, has guided the deliberations of the House of Representatives; a perseverance in which can alone secure, under the Divine blessing, the real and permanent felicity of our common country.

"G. WASHINGTON."

The House having returned to their Chamber, resumed the reading of the papers communicated by the Secretary of War, on Wednesday last, relative to the Indians north-west and south of the river Ohio, and to the troops in the service of the United States, and made a farther progress therein.

Tuesday, November 13.

Two other members, to wit: Robert Barnwell and Daniel Huger, from South Carolina, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Defeat of General St. Clair.

On a motion made and seconded, that the House do come to the following resolution:

"Resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury and the Secretary of War be notified that this House intend, on Wednesday next, to take into consideration the Report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the late expedition under General St. Clair, to the end that they may attend the House, and furnish such information as may be conducive to the due investigation of the matters stated in the said report:"

Mr. Williamson moved to strike out the latter part of the resolution, which respected the attendance of the Secretaries on the House. This motion, if carried, leaves the resolution a simple proposition to inform those officers that the House were, on Wednesday, to take the report on the failure of General St. Clair's expedition into consideration.

Mr. Venable objected generally to the resolution, as inconsistent with the dignity of the House. He doubted the propriety of the measure altogether. The gentlemen are not impeached, and therefore the House has no right to cite them to make their appearance; and, with respect to information, the House can command such from the Heads of Departments as they may see proper to require. He was at a loss in attempting to investigate the object of the resolution. He could see no purpose that it would answer, which could not as well be obtained without it.

Mr. White offered several objections to the resolution, of a similar import with the above.

Mr. Dayton supported the motion by a few remarks, stating the importance of that information which those gentlemen alone could give. He adverted to the report of the committee, which he observed had exculpated the commanding General on that expedition, whereas he was of opinion that the failure was owing to the misconduct of that gentleman.

Mr. Tucker objected to the resolution. He preferred the mode of requiring that information which the House might think necessary, in writing.

Mr. Madison objected to the motion on constitutional grounds, and as being contrary to the practice of the House. He had not, he said, thoroughly revolved the matter in his own mind, and therefore was not prepared to state fully the effects which would result from the adoption of the resolution; but he would hazard thus much, that it would form an innovation in the mode of conducting the business of this House, and introduce a precedent which would lead to perplexing and embarrassing consequences; as it involved a conclusion, in respect to the principles of the Government, which at an earlier day would have been revolted from. He was decidedly in favor of written information.

Mr. Clark was opposed to the resolution; as a member of the committee who made the report, he had no apprehension; with respect to information, the report and the vouchers are before the House; and such further inquiry may be made of the proper officers as the House may think necessary.

Mr. Ames supported the resolution. He noticed the impressions which the failure of the late expedition had made on the public mind. Characters had suffered in the general estimation. It was of the utmost importance that a thorough investigation should take place, that if the failure of the expedition was a mere casualty, and the fortune of war, it might be made to appear; or if it was owing to misconduct, the blame might fall on the proper subjects. The mode suggested to obtain information appeared to him the best that could be adopted—the most adequate to the object. It was due to justice, to truth, and to the national honor, to take effectual measures to investigate the business thoroughly. This inquiry appears to be the beginning of an arrangement preparatory to an impeachment; on whom this will fall, he should not presume to say; but still it places the subject in an important point of view, and shows in the strongest manner the necessity of adopting the best possible mode of ascertaining the real state of facts. This, he conceived, could not be done so effectually as by the mode proposed in the resolution.

Mr. Giles objected to the resolution. He preferred a thorough discussion of the report, in the first place, and a comparison of the vouchers with the report; and if, in the issue, it should appear necessary to call for information from these officers, it could then be done; but, in the present state of the business, to adopt the resolution would place the committee in a very disagreeable situation.

Mr. Laurance observed that the committee, in their report, say that, for want of time, they had not been able to complete it; it is, then, apparent from the report itself that it is immature. He stated several particulars in the report which were incomplete, and from hence inferred that there was material information to be received previous to being able to form a competent judgment on the matter. He observed that, as the information must be had, he saw no necessity of postponing the attendance of those officers in the first instance.

Mr. Madison, in reply to Mr. Ames's remark, that the best possible mode ought to be adopted, observed, that there seemed to be different ideas entertained by the different advocates of the resolution; one seemed to implicate the officers alluded to as parties concerned; another appeared to consider them merely as witnesses. For his part, he thought there was no other way of proceeding, but that of adopting one or the other of these alternatives: either to take up the report and discuss its merits, or for the House to begin the inquiry themselves, de novo.

Mr. Livermore objected to the resolution. He could not see any advantage which would result from adopting it. He thought the causes of the failure of the expedition were sufficiently obvious, without criminating any body. He adverted to these causes—they were, the rawness of the troops, and the superiority of the Indians as marksmen. On these points he could not see what information could be derived from the Secretary of the Treasury. He thought that the Legislature had gone too far already, and that no satisfaction would result from further proceedings, but that the subject would appear more and more involved.

Mr. Boudinot, after stating sundry particulars relative to the state of the public mind at the time of the report, adverted to several parts of it which appear to criminate particular persons, some of whom were absent at the time of the investigation on which the report is founded. He therefore urged the necessity of receiving from the Heads of the Departments that information which was requisite to throw light on several parts of the report, and that this ought to be done previous to taking the report into consideration.

Mr. Fitzsimons said he should vote against the resolution. He did not think this the proper time to call for the information alluded to; nor the mode proposed a proper one. Some remarks have been made on the report, though it is not before the House; to these he should not particularly reply, but would only observe, that no person had applied to the House for redress of any supposed injury received by the report. It has been said that the inquiry ought to have been a military one; but it was well known that it was impossible to institute such an inquiry by reason of the want of officers. He then gave a sketch of the mode of proceeding adopted by the committee in conducting the inquiry, to show that they had availed themselves of every means of information within their power.

Mr. Williamson said he had moved to strike out the latter part of the resolution, but he was equally opposed to the whole of it; and since he had heard the remarks of several gentlemen, on both sides of the House, he was clearly of opinion that the best way was to dispose of it altogether, and let the subject proceed in the course which it had already taken.

Mr. Giles observed, that he thought there was less delicacy observed on this occasion, in respect to the committee, than was usual in this House. With respect to the report, the vouchers on which every assertion is founded are before the House. As to the incompleteness of the report, it is an immaterial object; the few blanks it contains are occasioned by the want of time to examine the voluminous papers necessary to be examined, in order to ascertain some of the facts—facts not in themselves of the first importance. He observed, that he had not the smallest objection to the fullest investigation of the subject; he was in favor of all the information that could be possibly obtained; he objected not only to the mode now contended for, which he thought not only liable to all the objections which had been made, but to many others which might be offered.

Mr. Dayton observed that he was one of those who were not satisfied with the report; he did not think the conclusion which exculpated the commanding officer could be supported by the report itself. He adverted to several facts stated in it, which showed that the commander must have been highly culpable; he instanced the slowness of his movements, the dilatoriness in constructing forts, and his being surprised by the enemy. He thought that the remarks which had fallen from gentlemen, on what he had said, were illiberal, as they had virtually impeached his candor, when he was not conscious of deviating from its dictates. It was not his intention to have touched on the merits of the report, but he had been impelled to do it from the turn the debate had taken.

Mr. Gerry was in favor of the resolution. He enlarged on the magnitude of the object of investigation, and insisted that it was the indispensable duty of the House thoroughly to probe the subject to the bottom, that if any persons have been to blame they may suffer, or if the event which has taken place, by which the national character has suffered, and so severe and unproductive an expense has been incurred, amounting probably to one million dollars, has been owing to circumstances which could not be avoided or controlled, the public may receive satisfaction as to the whole matter.

Mr. Page objected to the resolution, particularly to the precedent it would establish; but, at the same time, he was in favor of the fullest inquiry the subject was susceptible of. He said, the mode proposed would operate to clog the freedom of inquiry, and the freedom of debate.

Mr. Ames, adverting to the spirit of the report, pointed out the peculiar situation of the two Secretaries, and that they did not stand on the same ground with other persons who are not so intimately implicated in the matter. He alluded to the various objections which had been urged from precedent, from the fulness of the investigation which the subject had undergone in the hands of the committee, and from the remark by Mr. Livermore, that sufficient had already been done. To this last objection he particularly replied, by saying that the public wanted further satisfaction, and that the House could not justify themselves to their constituents without a stricter and fuller investigation, that the whole of the facts might be laid before them.

Mr. Madison said, the mode now proposed involved a dereliction of the only practicable mode of transacting public business; and that, however imperfect that mode might be, still he believed that it was the only one that had received the sanction of experience and utility. He therefore hoped that the resolution would be rejected, and the mode already adopted persevered in, and the necessary information called for in writing, from every person in anywise interested or competent to give it.

Mr. W. Smith supported the resolution. He showed by the report itself, and from the reasoning used by gentlemen in opposition to the resolution, that the two Secretaries were implicated in the causes of the failure of the expedition; from hence, he inferred the justice and propriety of giving them an opportunity of exculpating themselves.

Mr. Gerry expressed surprise at the apprehension which some gentlemen appear to entertain of the measure of introducing the Heads of Departments into the House; for his part he had no such apprehensions. The Secretary will attend at the orders of the House merely to give such information as may be required, and not as members or ministers to influence and govern the determinations of the House.

Mr. Venable objected further to the resolution; he urged the impropriety of any of the Heads of Departments coming forward, and attempting in any way to influence the deliberations of the Legislature.

Mr. Laurance replied to Mr. Venable; he observed that the gentleman appeared to mistake the object of the resolution; it was not contemplated that either of the Secretaries should appear on the floor of the House to influence, in any degree, its decisions; they are to be called on merely for information.

Mr. Murray objected to the resolution. The report, he observed, is made to the House; if in the course of its discussion any further light or information should be deemed necessary, it may then be called for, and in that mode which shall appear most eligible; at present the question appears to be premature. Mr. Murray added several other remarks, and then the question being put, Mr. Williamson's motion for striking out was carried.

And then the main question being put, that the House do agree to the said resolution as amended, it passed in the negative.

Resolved, That the Committee of the whole House, to whom is referred the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair, be empowered to send for persons, papers, and records, for their information.

Wednesday, November 14.

Another member, to wit, William Barry Grove, from North Carolina, appeared and took his seat in the House.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, together with a memorial of Samuel Hodgdon, late Quartermaster General to the Army, respectively praying that they may be heard, and permitted to give information and explanations as to the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair; which were read. The letter of the Secretary of War is as follows:

War Department, November 14, 1792.

Sir: After the close of the last session of Congress, I saw with much concern the report to the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition, under Major General St. Clair, of the 8th of May, 1792; which, having been presented to the House in the last moments of the session, was ordered to be printed, and has since circulated in the public newspapers throughout the United States, containing suggestions, most of them founded upon ex parte investigation, which have been understood in a sense very injurious to my reputation.

Learning that the present day was appointed for taking into consideration the above-mentioned report, I have waited with anxious expectation for some act of the House enabling me to attend the progress of the examination upon which they are about to enter, for the purpose of furnishing such information and explanations as might conduce to a right understanding of facts, in which I am so materially implicated. The failure of a proposition, which I am informed was made to the House with that view, has added to my solicitude and regret.

Thus situated, I feel myself called upon to ask of the justice of the House that some mode may be devised, by which it will be put into my power to be present during the course of the intended inquiry, as well to hear the evidence on which the several allegations contained in the report are founded, as to offer the information and explanations to which I have alluded.

To this step I am impelled by a persuasion that an accurate and satisfactory investigation cannot otherwise be had with equal advantage, if at all. And my entire reliance upon the equity and impartiality of the House, will not permit a doubt to exist on my part that such an investigation will be exclusively the object of their desire and pursuit.

I have the honor to be, sir, with the highest respect, your most obedient humble servant,

H. KNOX.

The Speaker of the honorable the House of Representatives of the U. S.

Defeat of General St. Clair.

And then the order of the day, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House on the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair, being taken up—

Mr. Madison suggested that the most simple, most practicable and consistent plan would be, to recommit the report of the select committee, and refer the present applications[44] to the committee to whom the report shall be recommitted. He therefore moved that the Committee of the Whole should be discharged from considering the reports on the causes of the failure of the late expedition.

Mr. Smith (S. C.) observed that several objections struck him in opposition to this motion. The House must at some period, said he, meet this case; if it is recommitted, there will be an impropriety in referring it to the same committee; if a new committee is appointed, they must begin the whole subject de novo; and, if their investigation should take up such a length of time as that of the former committee, the session will be expended, and at the close of it the business will recur on the House, and the same discussion will occur again that is now proposed. He hoped the House would therefore proceed in the consideration of the report, assign two or three days in the week for the purpose, and continue the investigation till the whole is finished.

Mr. Giles replied, that he had no doubt that the vouchers on which the committee had founded the report would appear sufficient to justify the decisions that they had made. He said that he did not suppose that the applicants would adduce any new information; one of them had been called on, he attended the committee, and he supposed that he had furnished all the information he was in possession of. He objected to a recommitment; as one of the committee, he was perfectly satisfied with the report; nor did he conceive there was any additional evidence to be produced, except it was of a recent date.

Mr. Ames said, he perceived such a disinclination to go into the subject as indicated a proper temper of mind in relation to the persons supposed to be in any ways interested in the ultimate decision of the House. He was opposed to a recommitment, as it would procrastinate instead of expediting the inquiry. He adverted to the report. Facts are stated; the public have been left to draw the inferences; the committee have not explicitly criminated any body; but they have determined, in several instances, who is not to blame. What is the situation of those who are implicated in the causes of the failure? Every citizen knows that, in consequence of the issue of the expedition, clamors against the War Department, in respect to Indian affairs, have rung through the Continent. Should public officers, who have been placed in situations of such importance, be silent, and submit calmly to such imputations, they would be unworthy of public confidence, unworthy to breathe the vital air. They now apply for an opportunity to be heard in their own vindication. Shall they be sent to a committee-room, and make their defence against the allegations brought forward to their disadvantage, which have been published to the world, in the hearing of perhaps ten or a dozen persons only? He hoped not—he thought justice to them and to the public required that they should be allowed to make their defence in the face of the world. Will not precluding them look like a wish to smother all further inquiry into the matter?

Mr. Baldwin was in favor of recommitting; he said it was the most eligible mode, and was consonant to the practice of the House.

Mr. Madison remarked that it had been said a disposition was discovered to smother inquiry. In reply he observed that, if he wished to prevent a thorough investigation, he should be in favor of the whole subject being undertaken by the House; because, he observed, that if a select committee of a few members took seven weeks to form an incomplete report, it must appear evident that so large a body as this House could never get through the matter. He further observed, that the same reason existed for referring the residue of the evidence to a select committee as induced the measure in the first instance.

Mr. Fitzsimons said he was at first in favor of a recommitment, but on further consideration he was convinced the House would be able to get through the subject in a shorter time than a select committee. He added several other reasons which induced him to be in favor of the House proceeding with the report.

Mr. Gerry said it appeared to him that the only question seemed to be, whether the House or the select committee shall establish the facts. If these facts are established by the committee, would it give equal satisfaction as if they were established by the House? He conceived it would not; but, should the result be a conviction on the part of the House that some of the officers are culpable, will the House rest an impeachment on the report of the committee? He conceived the House ought to found their decisions on facts ascertained by themselves. It has been said there is no difference between the House and the committee. If this is the case, does it not imply a censure by the House on certain characters? He thought it did. It therefore becomes the House to discuss the report, that it may be determined on what footing it stands. If, in the case of a contested election, the House revolted from the idea of submitting their judgment to facts substantiated by a committee, the case before us is of unspeakably greater magnitude. For these, and several other reasons, he hoped the report would not be recommitted.

Mr. Williamson was in favor of the motion for recommitting; he supported his opinion by the uniform practice of the House, which in every case where new evidence was adduced, always provided that the new evidence should be examined by the same committee, who had originally brought in the report. He said if this mode was departed from, we should find no committee would bring forward a state of facts in future. He thought it was not treating the committee with proper candor to decide on their report in its present situation.

Mr. Sylvester observed, that the resolution of the House at the close of the last session, that they would take up the subject early in the present session, precluded a recommitment; he was therefore opposed to the motion.

Mr. Boudinot was in favor of a recommitment; he said, if there is new evidence to be brought, the House ought to wait till that is received and reported at the Clerk's table; and this he conceived ought to be done in the usual way, by a select committee; till the whole testimony is completed it appeared to him the House was not prepared to take one step in the matter.

Mr. Madison replied to Mr. Gerry's allusion to the ease of the contested election. He inquired of him whether the House itself went into an investigation of facts in the first instance? He believed he would not say they did. With respect to the memorials, he inquired, whether, if they had been presented at the time of the investigation of the subject by the select committee, they would not have been referred to the committee? If they would then have been referred, the same reason exists for referring them to a select committee at the present time.

Mr. Laurance was of opinion that a recommitment would tend to a saving of time; the committee will not be obliged to go over the same ground again that has already been explored; all they will be obliged to do is, to investigate the new testimony which will be adduced. He hoped, therefore, that the motion would prevail.

Mr. Giles said, that the proceedings of the committee were public, and that the Secretaries could have attended all the time, had they seen proper. They attended but once, and then appeared extremely anxious to get away to attend to their offices. The committee would have been extremely glad to have had those gentlemen present oftener, and to receive all the information they could give, and supposed they had done it.

Mr. Gerry replied to Mr. Madison. He said, if gentlemen would recur to the proceedings of the House on the contested election, they will find that the House expressly reserved to itself the right of substantiating the facts, which should appear from an examination of the depositions, taken in conformity to the resolutions of the House; and here he adverted to the mode pointed out by the House in taking those depositions. The adverse party was to be summoned to attend to the taking them; but in this report it appears that ex parte evidence has been admitted as the foundation on which some of the decisions have been made.

Mr. Murray supported the motion for a recommitment. He observed that the matter, in its present state, was so incomplete that he could not see how the House could proceed upon it. One part of the evidence only is finished, and the report is made on that evidence. Now, we are told new testimony is offered; let the whole be brought into view at once, and then the House will be in a situation to judge.

Mr. Page was in favor of a further commitment of the subject; but whether to the committee who made the report, or to a new committee, he should not take upon him to say. With respect to the admission of any head of a department to the bar of this House, except in case of an impeachment, he would never consent to it. It would be a precedent of a most dangerous nature, tending to a destruction of all freedom of inquiry by committees.

Mr. Findlay observed, that the committee wished that Mr. Hodgdon should have been present, but he did not make his appearance; the committee therefore proceeded on the testimony they had, and as there is now new evidence brought forward, he thought it was proper that the report should be recommitted. As one of the committee, he should have no objections to such alterations as might appear proper on further and more complete investigation of the matter.

Mr. Steele called for the reading of a clause in the memorial of the Secretary of War, which states that the committee had drawn conclusions from ex parte evidence. This being read, Mr. Steele remarked on the want of candor towards the committee, which had been shown by some of the members in the course of their observations. He then adverted to the above clause respecting ex parte evidence, and observed that, with respect to the Secretary of War, it was not true that the committee had proceeded on ex parte evidence; that officer, said he, was notified of the meetings of the committee; he attended those meetings; he furnished the committee with papers and documents, &c.; and further, he was requested to detain officers in town whose testimony was necessary in the matter, and that he complained of some of those officers being detained by the delays of the committee from the recruiting service. With respect to Mr. Hodgdon the same cannot be said, as he was not then in the country.

Mr. Steele then concluded by some additional remarks on the indelicacy manifested by some gentlemen in their treatment of the committee, and observed that he did not apply it to himself personally, but as it respected the committee at large, he thought proper to express the contempt which he conceived it merited.

Mr. Dayton replied to Mr. Steele. He repeated the substance of his original remarks on the report, and added, that in the course of the discussion he should attempt to show that the deductions made in several parts of the report were false. Mr. D. added, that whatever the gentleman last speaking might say, as one of the committee who signed the report, he was certainly implicated in whatever censure it merited.

The question for a recommitment was then agreed to, 30 to 22. And it was accordingly

Resolved, That the Committee of the whole House, to whom was committed the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair, be discharged from the consideration thereof; and that the said report, together with the documents relating thereto, including the letter of the Secretary of War, and the memorial of Samuel Hodgdon, be recommitted to Mr. Fitzsimons, Mr. Giles, Mr. Steele, Mr. Clark, and Mr. Findlay.

Thursday, November 15.

Another member, to wit, Theodore Sedgwick, from Massachusetts, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Monday, November 19.

Another member, to wit: John Francis Mercer, from Maryland, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Protection to American Commerce.

Mr. Williamson moved that a committee be appointed to prepare and bring in a bill or bills for promoting commerce, by the increase of American seamen. In moving the above, Mr. W. addressed the House as follows:

Measures have already been taken by Congress for increasing the number of our shipping; but no effectual and general measure has been adopted for increasing the number of native American seamen. Every gentleman in my hearing knows that there are always a considerable number of foreigners employed on board American vessels; but none of us could have expected, and some of us may not have heard of the injury and insults to which our commerce has been exposed, from having British seamen on board our ships.

A schooner called the David and George, belonging to Portsmouth, in Virginia, and commanded by Captain Goffigan, lately touched at Sierra Leone, on the coast of Africa; she was navigated by eleven persons. Three of that number who had been on shore, informed Captain Wickham who commanded an armed vessel, that they were British subjects. Captain Wickham went on board the American vessel and claimed the three seamen; he also claimed wages for them. Captain Goffigan refused to deliver the men, and declared with truth that nothing was due them. Captain Wickham took the men by force, and by the same regulation he went into the hold, and took as much of the cargo as he thought fit, under the cover of substitute for wages. Captain Goffigan complained of this violence and robbery to Mr. Clarkson, who is Governor of the Province. The Governor replied, that he should have done the same thing, and that he had orders from his superiors so to act in such cases.

The ship Illustrious President, belonging to Virginia, commanded by Captain Butler, touched some time ago at Madeira, on her passage to the East Indies. The British frigate Hyena, commanded by Captain Hargood, lay at that time in the road. Seven of Captain Butler's sailors being British subjects, Captain Hargood sent to take them by force from on board the American ship, and he would have done so, had not the Governor of the Island, remembering what he owed to the honor of his nation and to every ship under his protection, interrupted his authority.

The ship Fame belonging to Philadelphia, commanded by Walter Sims, on her way to the East Indies, lately touched at Table Bay, at the Cape of Good Hope. Captain Blith, who commanded a ship of twenty guns, then lay in the road. One of Captain Sims' sailors, a native of Scotland, offered his service to Captain Blith, calling himself a British subject. That very man in Philadelphia had taken the oath of allegiance to the United States; but the British claim was best, for Captain Blith's ship was strongest. He took the man, sent an officer on board the American ship, who took the liberty of opening the after hatch, searching the hold and looking out a chest and clothes. Captain Blith justified these acts of violence, by saying, that he had printed instructions to take all who called themselves British subjects.

These are a few out of the numberless cases in which our ships have been robbed of their seamen, and they are samples of the manner in which we shall be constantly treated, while we depend on foreigners to navigate our ships. If these cases had terminated in threats and abusive language, to which our flag is too much accustomed, it might have been questioned whether the nation of the offending party was to blame. When you are told by one officer and another, that he is instructed to distress our trade, we should, if possible, deprive them of the present excuse. Is it not our business to inquire into the cause of this strange conduct? By a vitiated passion for British goods, we are universally clothed in the manufactures of that nation. Our debts increase every year, and we labor to make her rich, while we are becoming poor. We pour our treasures into her lap more than any other nation under the sun. Observe the rewards! I say nothing about her measures on our Western Frontier; but our trading ships are boarded and plundered at discretion by her ships of war; and yet, Great Britain, whose commerce we cherish, is the only nation that treats us in this manner. Perhaps it is conjectured that Americans are of that species of animals whose favor is increased by rough treatment. Be this as it may, it is our duty to consider of the safest and surest mode of extending our commerce. After we have been told that an American vessel having sailors on board, who chance to have been born in the British dominion, is subject to be deprived of her hands, robbed of her property, and turned adrift without help, it can hardly be necessary to adduce other arguments in favor of native American seamen; but other strong and conclusive arguments in favor of the measure present themselves. The merchants' property in critical situations, or in distant or obscure parts of the world, is always most safe when a ship is navigated by men who uniformly strive to return to their native home, and whose hopes and happiness centre in that country to which their ship belongs. The crew of a French brig some weeks ago, murdered their captain and mate on our coast; that misfortune, in all probability, would not have happened, if the seamen had been natives of France. Two of them only were of that kingdom. Is it necessary to add, that a powerful body of seamen, at some future day, may save us from the vast expense and danger of a standing army? Upon this single argument of native seamen we might rest the question. It needs neither support nor illustration. I shall, therefore, presume, that it is our duty as soon as possible, to provide for the daily operations of pride or injustice, by furnishing the merchant with seamen, of whom he cannot be robbed, except by open declaration of war—with seamen in whom he can trust—with men, who, actuated by those passions which are inseparable from the human breast, the pride of nation and the love of country, may serve him in every part of the world,—to furnish the nation with a safe and strong bulwark against foreign tyranny and invasion.

I shall now take the liberty of moving that committees may be appointed to bring in bills for the purposes mentioned.

Mr. Williamson, Mr. Laurance, Mr. Goodhue, Mr. Benjamin Bourne, and Mr. Barnwell, were appointed to prepare and bring in the same.

Thursday, November 22.

Another member, to wit, John Milledge, returned to serve in this House for the State of Georgia in the room of Anthony Wayne, whose seat was declared vacant, appeared, produced his credentials, and took his seat in the House.

Wednesday, November 28.

Warner Mifflin's Petition.

Mr. Steele called the attention of the House to the memorial and representation of Warner Mifflin on the subject of Negro slavery. Mr. S. said that after what had passed at New York on this subject, he had hoped the House would have heard no more of it; but, to his surprise, he found the subject was started anew, and had been introduced by a fanatic, who, not content with keeping his own conscience, undertook to become the keeper of the consciences of other men, and in a manner which he deemed not very decent, had intruded his opinions into this House. Had an application been made to him to present such a petition, he thought he should have avoided a compliance with it. Gentlemen in the Northern States do not realize the mischievous consequences which have already resulted from measures of this kind, and if a stop were not put to such proceedings, the Southern States would be compelled to apply to the General Government for their interference. He concluded, by moving "that the paper purporting to be a petition from Warner Mifflin, be returned to him by the Clerk of the House; and that the entry of said petition be expunged from the Journal."

Mr. Ames rose to explain his motives in presenting the petition. He said it was his opinion, which he had expressed to the House long ago, that this Government could not, with propriety, take any steps in the matter referred to in this petition; but, on the general principle that every citizen has a right to petition the Legislature, and to apply to any member to present his request to the House, he had handed it in. The petitioner is a citizen of Delaware; and had the member from that State been in the House, he should not have thought himself obliged to have introduced it; but that gentleman being absent, the petitioner had a right to apply to a member from any other State. He had no idea of supporting the prayer of the petition, his mind having been long made up on the subject. He considered it as totally inexpedient to interfere with the subject, and had uniformly opposed the applications made at a former session of Congress.

Mr. Livermore did not consider the motion in order, the subject not being properly before the House; nor did he believe there was any disposition to bring it forward.

Mr. W. Smith said he had seconded the motion, with a view of putting it out of the power of any member to call it up when persons might be absent who would find it their duty to oppose it. Mr. S. said he admitted, in its full extent, the right of each citizen to petition for a redress of grievances, and the duty of the House to consider such petitions; but the paper in question is a mere rant and rhapsody of a meddling fanatic, interlarded with texts of Scripture, and concluded with no specific prayer. He observed it was the general practice of Legislative bodies for members presenting petitions to read them, in order to make known their objects, and to have them entered on the journal. In this particular instance the practice might be attended with danger. Citizens of the Southern States learning that papers of this kind meet with countenance here would be alarmed. The gentleman who presented this paper had not, on this occasion, shown his usual regard to Southern interests. Had he stated its dangerous object, the House would undoubtedly have refused its reception. After the proceedings at New York, when a similar application was made, his constituents had a right to expect that the subject would never be stirred again. He would assure the House, that while he continued a member of it, he should never fail to express his abhorrence against all such applications, as they could have none but a mischievous tendency. So far from being calculated to meliorate the condition of the race who were the object of them, they had a tendency to alienate their affections from their masters, and by exciting in them a spirit of restlessness, to render greater severity towards them necessary. He therefore earnestly called on the House to agree to the motion, and thereby convince this enthusiast, and others, that they can never meet countenance in the Legislature of the Union.

The part of the motion directing the petition to be returned by the Clerk was agreed to. The remainder was withdrawn by Mr. Steele, the mover.

Thursday, December 13.

Andrew Gregg, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Tuesday, December 18.

A memorial of the officers, now residing in the State of New York, of the late American Army, in behalf of themselves and their brethren, the soldiers of the said Army, was presented to the House and read, praying that the depreciation which accrued on the certificates of debt granted them in reward for their military services during the late war, may be made good to them, or such other relief afforded them as the present circumstances of the United States will admit. Also, a memorial of the Pennsylvania line of the late Army, to the same effect.

Ordered, That the said memorials do lie on the table.

Thursday, December 27.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, accompanying a statement of the present organization of the troops; also, Returns of the commissioned officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, in the service of the United States; which were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

Friday, December 28.

A memorial of the officers and soldiers of the late New Hampshire line of the Continental Army was presented to the House and read, praying that the depreciation which accrued on the certificates of debt granted them in reward for their military services during the late war may be made good to them, or such other relief afforded them as the present circumstances of the United States will admit; which was laid on the table.

Reduction of the Army.

Mr. Steele called up his resolution laid on the table some days ago, as follows:

"Resolved, That a committee be appointed to prepare and bring in a bill to reduce the military establishment of the United States to —— regiments or corps, consisting each of —— non-commissioned officers, privates and musicians, with such proportion of commissioned officers as the President may think proper to continue in service; and to repeal so much of an act, passed the fifth of March, one thousand seven hundred and ninety-two, entitled 'An act for making farther and more effectual provision for the protection of the frontiers of the United States,' as may contravene this intention.'"

Mr. Steele, in proposing the above resolution, said, the situation of the frontiers, and the inefficiency of the measures adopted through the medium of the War Department, to relieve them; the extreme burdens which those measures were heaping on the people, and the probability of their continuance, afforded ample scope for inquiry; and to sit silent on such an occasion, he thought, would be to partake of and support the errors from which those misfortunes may have arisen. The citizens of the United States, he said, were of a peaceable and patient disposition, and they have with cheerfulness acquiesced in the measures of the National Legislature; but they were not become so tame as to submit to immense and fruitless expenses, and the disgrace of their military character, to answer any vain projects of folly and ambition, without a prospect of guaranteeing a peace. Is it not evident, said he, that plans have been persevered in without regard to common sense, by an unnecessary increase of our army, until the indignation of the whole continent has been roused up against it?

To elucidate this position, Mr. S. recited the expenses, charges, and increase of the War Department from its first establishment under the present Government, to its present enormous demands, which for the year 1793, are no less, agreeably to the estimate furnished by the Secretary of the Treasury, than $1,171,719;[45] more than double the sum necessary for the support of all the other branches of the National Government. The better to illustrate this subject of the Indian war, he entered into comparative statements of the years 1790, '91, '92, and '93; and, animadverting on the different items of calculation, he asserted, in strong terms, that they exceeded every thing that the history of the Indian wars afforded for twenty years back; he wished any gentleman to enter into an investigation and comparison of the alarming increase of the expenses of the department, and to take a retrospect of the subject for twenty years back; and he was certain neither the Secretary of War nor any other person could account rationally for the occasion of such an establishment. There was no precedent to be found in any of the States; not one of them has a War Department; neither was it contemplated in the Constitution of the United States. Yet it has, in the short space of three or four years, been imposing on the country burdens which the people have at length expressed their abhorrence of; it has been increased from $137,000 in 1789, to the extravagant demand now required, of $1,171,719 and $50,000 contingencies for the support of 1793. This is so alarming an increase, that it calls loudly for reformation, or the entire abolition of the department, and that another system shall be adopted for the protection of the frontiers. Armies of regulars will never afford protection; they have never answered any good purpose against the Indians from the time of Braddock's defeat down to that of Major General St. Clair, although this last-mentioned unfortunate expedition cost the United States an immense sum of money, and the lives of a great number of valuable officers and citizens. History and the experience of ages have proved this fact, that unwieldy armies will never be able to fight the savages in the wilderness; indeed, the Secretary of War confesses the fact in one of his reports, which Mr. S. read, wherein the Secretary accounts for the ill success of the plans, by observing, "that it was owing to the extreme activity of the enemy and our ignorance of the wilderness through which our troops had to march." But the Secretary might have also added, our entire ignorance of the mode of carrying on the war.

Here Mr. S. took occasion to observe, that this alarmingly expensive and useless department had crept upon the country entirely from our fondness for taking up money on loans; for had it not been that the money was thus obtained with a sort of facility that was not directly felt by the people, they never would have consented to be directly taxed to support the parade of so unnecessary an establishment. This is my reason for being an enemy to loans; they deceive citizens, and lull them for a time, in order to levy double contributions afterwards.

But it may be demanded, how are the frontiers to be protected, if the army was disbanded? In reply to this Mr. S. said he wished that the former two regiments might be retained to garrison the forts, and that a militia near the scene of action should be raised, who would be able to make five expeditions against the savages in a year, if necessary, instead of one solitary fruitless attempt, which, upon an average, is as much as a regular army can do; and sometimes not so much, for it does not appear that any expedition took place during the last twelve months: moreover, it is not so easy for the Indians to discover the plans and approaches of militia, as they do the slow motions of an unwieldy army, dragging their heavy artillery through the woods. The fact is, that the Indians have the best intelligence and know every motion of the army, and they can even calculate the time and place to meet them, and the numbers of their tribes that will be necessary to receive such a force; they will always be prepared when a regular army are to march against them. But if the business be left to a militia of the frontier inhabitants, who know the country, and have their property at stake, it would not cost the Government one-fourth part of the expense to give a complete protection, and to repel all the depredations of the savages, if that be our intention. If it be the protection and happiness of our brethren on the frontiers—if we are serious to check the progress of expense, the motion which I have brought forward will be the most effectual means, and to establish a proper Militia System. On this motion, therefore, will depend the question, whether we are to continue a fruitless warfare in the present mode for seven or ten years, or shall we adopt a better system, which will not cost one-fourth of the expense, and which would completely check the Indians; nay, it would entirely exterminate them, if that was thought to be necessary.

In order to bring the matter to a point, Mr. S. suggested, that it would be proper to disband all the troops except the two former regiments of two thousand one hundred and twenty-eight men, which would be more than sufficient to garrison all the fourteen posts on the frontier. These, with a militia, under proper regulations, and the officers appointed by the President, would be found a more certain protection. The garrisons are at Fayette, Hamilton, Steuben, Knox, Tammany, Telfair, Harmar, Franklin, Jefferson, St. Clair, Marietta, Massachusetts, Matthews, and Knoxville. Most of these are commanded by captains, except two that are commanded by majors: now, reducing the establishment to two thousand one hundred and eighteen non-commissioned and privates, and average them amongst the garrisons, it will give one hundred and fifty-two men for each; the sum saved by this reduction would be six hundred and twenty-four thousand six hundred and seven dollars—the difference between the appropriations for 1792 and those required for 1793.

With regard to the expense that would be incurred from militia expeditions, none of them would cost above thirty thousand dollars; and four or five of those, if made in a year, would have ten times the success and effect that could be expected from the present system. Had the militia plan been adopted, we should not at this day hear such murmurs from our constituents, nor would the people be saddled with heavy taxes and imposts; but, on the contrary, the money that has been actually wasted would have sunk a considerable part of our National Debt. But by the system of warfare lately adopted of dragging heavy cannon and camps into a wilderness, of which we have confessed our ignorance, if it be allowed any longer, our Treasury will be exhausted, and the public revenues which the Secretary of the Treasury reported as affording a prospect of income beyond the permanent wants of Government, will not all together be sufficient for our War Establishment; we must fly to loans, and pursue a system of ruin and distress to the country. Under these impressions, said Mr. S., I have introduced the proposition now before the House; and I entreat gentlemen to think seriously of it, for thereon, in a high degree, will depend the real protection of our frontier, the safety of our garrisons, and the ultimate ease, happiness, and tranquillity of the continent.

Mr. Hartley, although he did not wish to advocate the continuance of a standing army, yet he was averse to disbanding the troops at present, while it is known that a negotiation for a peace is going forward, and may not perhaps be brought to a decision before the spring. It is a well-known maxim in politics, that a peace can always be easiest obtained by a nation which is prepared for war. He noticed the great prudence and economy of the President in forming the army into a legion; and he differed in opinion with Mr. Steele respecting the insufficiency of regular troops. No instance could be quoted where regulars had engaged the Indians without beating them.

Mr. Parker said he had always abhorred the idea of keeping up standing armies in this country; and he believed he could from experience demonstrate that it was an unwise measure at the commencement of the present Government; for it answered no better purpose than throwing out a hint to the British and Spanish Governments, on our Northern and Southern frontiers, to increase their forces, and even to administer countenance and support to the Indians, which they never would have thought of doing, but for our vain attempt at military parade. He mentioned a letter which had been written by Lord Dorchester to the Indians, informing them "that Prince Edward had arrived with a number of chosen warriors to protect them," meaning against the United States.

Thus, said Mr. P., we have been warring with our finances for the last three years, by keeping up an army in imitation of European plans, which are formed in countries altogether unanalogous to America in every possible view. The consequences have been unsuccessful, and produced military disgraces, by sending into the field a collection of beings, collected from stews and brothels and from the most unprincipled of their species, to fight against Indians well supported on both sides, and fighting, as they do, for their property, their hunting ground, their wives, and children, instead of calling forth the militia, the natural strength of the country. But the present plan has involved us in such difficulties that we are not now able to provide for the payment of our debts, without the medium of loans; nay, we are now called on for a small sum of two hundred thousand dollars at the bank, which would have been easily paid out of the surplus in the Treasury, were it not that our finances have been exhausted by those ill-judged expeditions under General Harmer and General St. Clair. He mentioned the naked, starved appearance of the men who were sent out—with shoes that would not last three days, clothes that did not half cover their miserable bodies from the inclemency of the weather, and food sometimes not fit for dogs. He could mention the particulars, if required, of some other very abominable abuses, but refrained from it at present. He concluded by expressing the same opinion of militia that Mr. S. had done; and, with regard to the starved soldiery who had appeared in the woods, they were despised so much by the Indians, that they called them Coatmen, and shot them down like wild turkeys.

Mr. Fitzsimons was apprehensive that it would be a dangerous experiment, so suddenly to alter the system of defence already adopted. He remarked, that when Mr. Steele had stated the War Department to have cost the United States three million five hundred and forty thousand dollars, he had committed a great mistake, for there was one million one hundred and seventy-one thousand dollars of that sum not yet granted. [Mr. Steele explained, that he had gone by the estimates for the appropriations proposed, &c.] Mr. Fitzsimons did not wish to advocate a standing army; and if any better mode of defence for the frontiers could be digested, he would be amongst the foremost who would agree to it.

Mr. White could not entirely approve of the motion for striking out, unless a proper substitute for defence was fairly brought forward.

Mr. Williamson said, it was not disbanding an army of men, but the disbanding an army of paper, that he conceived to be the object of the motion, and it should have his support. He mentioned an affair between ninety militia and two hundred and forty Indians, wherein the militia received them much better than any of the regulars could boast of having done!

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) reverted to a clause in the law which empowers the President either to raise those three additional regiments, or to forbear to raise them, or discharge them, &c., provided he thought it consistent with the safety of the country. From this Mr. S. said it was evident there was a sort of indelicacy in the motion, as it implies a doubt that the President might fail in this instance, or vary from his usual line of prudence.

Mr. Dayton said, he would vote for referring the motion to a Committee of the Whole, although he disapproved of it. He should not have risen had he not heard from the two North Carolina members the strangest perversion of argument and the most extraordinary reasoning. The gentleman who has brought forward the motion, said Mr. D., has decried every idea of energy and efficacy in regular disciplined troops considering them not only inefficient, but contemptible, when employed against Indians; and, to confirm this assertion, he has instanced the expedition under General St. Clair, when it is well known that there were not, in fact, two companies of regular disciplined infantry among them. The other gentleman (Mr. Williamson) has extravagantly commended the back-country militia, and extolled them for their efficiency and success in Indian warfare; and instances the affair of a rencontre between Major Adair, with ninety militia, against two hundred and forty Indians. In reply to this, Mr. D. felt himself compelled to remark, that that affair did not appear so successful in his mind; for those very militia were unquestionably surprised and beaten, inasmuch as they were driven into a corner, until the Indians captured all their horses and other property in their camp; and what is still more disgraceful, one half of the Major's party deserted him at the commencement of the action, and secured themselves within their garrison.

Whilst he was up, Mr. D. would further observe on the extraordinary speech of the mover of the question, that it was such as no person could have ever expected to hear within the walls of that House. It seemed to be calculated to prejudice the minds of the people against the whole Administration; and it appeared still the more extraordinary that such a speech should come from a gentleman who so lately expressed the nicest delicacy in matters of order and decency; for, in this instance, he has committed the greatest breach of decorum and propriety, by a direct censure of the Secretary of War, the President, and both Houses of the Legislature. [Here several members called Mr. Dayton to order.] He proceeded, however, and appealed to the House, whether he had not drawn a just picture of the expressions of the gentleman from North Carolina. The very calculations which he has so laboriously produced have been questioned by other members. In regard to the surprise expressed by the gentleman at the increase of the War Department from 1791 to '92 and '93, it was not so strange that five thousand men would require greater supplies than two thousand. Yet the gentleman is surprised at the increase of expense, and seems to imply that abuses have been committed; but if an increase of expense for protecting the frontiers has accrued, the censure ought to fall on the Legislature for directing it by their laws, and not upon the Executive, who are merely the instruments for carrying them into effect.

Upon the whole, Mr. D., however he might himself be in favor of a reduction of the army, if it stood simply on its own merits, yet, as it now struck him, it being connected with some recent circumstances, he would therefore oppose it as tending only to embarrass the Executive in their attempts towards a pacification. Moreover, he said he knew the temper of Indians so well, by having lived amongst them, that there was not a nation on earth more extravagant in their demands, when they saw the force against them was lessening. So that what is intended by the motion for reduction at present, as economical, may turn out to be, in the end, the most expensive of any.

Mr. Wadsworth was also against the motion; and Mr. Ames closed the debate by a few observations on the necessity of committing to a Committee of the Whole, as there would be no other way of answering the industrious calculations of the mover.

The question on committal was carried, and made the order of the day for next Wednesday.

Wednesday, January 2.

Military Establishment.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the motion of the 28th ultimo, for reducing the Military Establishment of the United States.

Mr. Wadsworth rose and observed, that he had pledged himself to the House last Friday to show that the calculations of the gentleman from North Carolina were not true; and, if true, that the inferences drawn from them were not correct. There was a material difference (he said) between the appropriations quoted by the gentleman and those which he would now read to the House. Here he read a statement which he had prepared, from which it would appear that Mr. Steele had overrated the contingencies, hospitals, quartermasters, forage, cavalry, ordnance, pay, and subsistence, each of them.

The total difference between Mr. Steele's and Mr. Wadsworth's calculations, from this representation, was $27,080 in the year 1790.

In like manner, Mr. W. read his calculations for 1791. On comparing which with those of Mr. Steele, he said there was a difference in the total of $252,312; and in the total of 1792, he showed a difference of $567,530. He also particularly objected to Mr. Steele's statements of the ordnance expense for 1793, which had been called $23,000; but that sum, although it comes under the head of ordnance in the estimate, is not altogether appropriated for the purchase of cannon; the whole amount of the expense of cannon, he said, had been very trifling—about $700 or $800. Having proceeded thus far in attempting to controvert the calculations of the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. W. said, it would indeed have been an alarming thing to the United States, had they been founded in reality. But the gentleman had not confined himself to misstatements—he had gone further; for he had "lamented the necessity of quoting even truths from that office"—the War Office. Here Mr. W. stated that the quotation which Mr. Steele had made from a report of the Secretary of War had not been correctly quoted. After Mr. W. had thus represented Mr. Steele's calculations as erroneous, and his quotations as misstated, he said that the House ought to beware of not being led astray by them. He next observed, that the gentleman had laid a great deal of blame of the present hostilities between the United States and the Indians, and the expense attending them, to the War Department. But Mr. W. conceived that there were other causes to be assigned for the Indian war. There had never been a day, from the first settlement of America to the present moment, without our being at war with the Indians, in one place or another. The history of the country, the resolves of the old Congress, every book published by Congress, show this to have been the case. [Here he read some quotations from the resolves of 1784, to show the appropriations for defraying the expenses of Indian wars.] He wished the House to take a retrospect of the subject, from the beginning of those troubles down to the late application for assistance from the National Government by the Governor of Georgia. Although they have three thousand men on the frontier of that State, yet it is not found sufficient, and the Indians have driven them in. Indeed, there has been a time when the town of Savannah has been obliged to keep a guard.

It was not his intention to introduce commendations of the officer at the head of the War Department, but he thought it proper to observe, that he is not to be blamed on account of the expenses referred to. He is no more than an instrument acting under the Supreme Executive. It is the President of the United States who has found it necessary and proper to recommend the establishment of a military force. It is, therefore, not the Secretary's, it is the President's war; and to assert that the Secretary has had any undue influence with the Legislature, would be altogether false; for, on the contrary, his reports have been treated with disrespect in this House. Was not his report at New York ridiculed, and called "preaching," &c., because it was in favor of peace, and spoke with great humanity respecting the hardships often inflicted by the whites on the Indians? Indeed, the Secretary of War has been uniform in his endeavors to bring about a durable peace. This, however desirable an object, has been found hitherto impracticable, and the Indians have lately carried their depredations to so great a length that the President has judged it necessary to repel them by force. They have murdered in cold blood our ambassadors of peace, whilst holding a flag of truce in one hand and reaching the other out in friendship to the Indians. Perhaps they may have been excited to this degree of barbarity by many causes. It is hard to determine which are the greatest aggressors—the settlers on the frontiers or the Indians. The murder of the Moravian Indians, the proclamation of Congress against our own people, all show that the Indians have ground for complaint.

Here Mr. W. recapitulated the affairs of the banditti at Fort St. Vincennes; the representations of Judge Innis, of Kentucky, from 1783 to 1790, respecting the people there who could not be restrained from the commission of crimes against the peace of the country. From these causes and the common fatality of the times, our attempts towards peace have proved abortive, and the war has been prolonged, but the Secretary is entirely innocent of promoting it.

In regard to the other arguments of the gentleman (Mr. Steele) respecting the militia, that they would afford either a cheaper or better defence for the frontiers, he had his doubts.

Mr. W. now went over the whole history of the frontier wars; a line of posts was once established and garrisoned by militia, yet they could not prevent the Indians from coming within sixty miles of Winchester, and murdering, scalping and plundering the women and children. After the peace of 1762, the Indians drove in the militia, and advanced as far as Cumberland and Carlisle, in the State of Pennsylvania.

But Colonel Boquet, with the remains of two regiments of regular troops, who had just before arrived from the West Indies, marched against the savages, and hired pack-horses to carry some of his sick men. With these regulars, Colonel Boquet fought them and drove them with the bayonet from one end of the country to the other. The battle began at one o'clock the first day and lasted until night, and was renewed the next morning with superior force by the Indians; yet they were entirely discomfited. This news went to Fort Pitt and Virginia, and revived the spirits of the country. Virginia raised more troops—and Colonel Boquet dictated a peace to the savages.

These instances furnished sufficient arguments to show the superiority of regular troops over militia. But he could mention many others, viz: General Hartman, with eight hundred chosen men, giving a total defeat to the Indians; Colonel Willet's attack and defeat of them; and General Sullivan's affair in South Carolina.

As to the defeat of Harmer and St. Clair, their men ought not to be reckoned regular troops. They were raw recruits, undisciplined, &c. But even they stood better than the militia; for the militia ran away, and those who remained to fight the savages fell, to their honor be it spoken, whilst the militia, who were the advanced guard, ran and threw away their guns, nay, their coats.

Upon the whole, the balance of argument, Mr. W. thought, must appear in favor of regular troops.

He further took occasion to animadvert on what Mr. Williamson had said, when that gentleman expressed himself so strongly in favor of the militia under Major Adair. That officer, Mr. W. observed, had been a Continental officer, and from his own words, it appeared that he had no very great opinion of the militia, for they had fled to the garrison; and the Indians obtained their ends, notwithstanding the reception given by Major Adair. Theirs was the triumph, and when they retired, it seems to have been not so much a matter of necessity, as a thing of choice, on their part. The loss of horses, one hundred, perhaps, and the expense of this affair, amounted to a much greater sum than any regular troops would have cost. The party under Major Adair, supposing it to consist of a hundred men, cost one hundred dollars a day, reckoning the attendant circumstances—and considering it, as Mr. W. did, a complete defeat—for there are no circumstances to prove that it was otherwise—the militia having deserted him and left the few regulars he had exposed to the whole of the danger.

Mr. W. did not stop here in his details of military disgraces—he recounted many other cases. He mentioned the Grant's expedition against the Cherokees, &c. And still he drew a balance against the successes of the militia; for, he said, they had constantly been defeated, and the country left exposed to the depredations of the enemy.

Much has been said, observed Mr. W., of Clark and Sevier's successes. They, indeed, afford an exception to the cases above mentioned; but how far were they successful? The immense expense of men and money, and the interruption given to the agriculture of the country by calling away from their business so many industrious citizens, is a thing beyond the power of calculation; for my part, said he, I do not know figures enough to count it up. For the truth of this position, and for the enormous waste and expense incurred by militia, he appealed to one of the members (Col. Parker) on the other side of the House, who had experience in the matter, whether it was not absolutely impossible either to bring militia under a proper discipline, or prevent their enormous waste. A whole brigade of regular troops would not cost so much as one regiment of militia to a country. The militia of Kentucky have cost more blood and wealth than all the American war; when the circumstances are considered of calling out men from the tillage of the field, &c. It is enormous the number of lives, and the aggregate loss is countless. The causes of these things are, want of order and discipline, &c. And those causes have produced a universal reprobation of the war establishment; but all those who condemn are not well acquainted with those causes; they judge from hearing only one-half of the truth in our newspapers. It is supposed a peace can be easily effected, but I know of no peace that has not been effected by force; for, although promises have been made and peace often treated for with the Indians, yet they have as constantly broken those promises. This is a good reason for keeping up the present force of the United States. We are now able to meet the Indians and demand a safe peace. But the gentleman from North Carolina calls our establishment a mere military parade, which, it is said by another gentleman, (Mr. Parker,) will only tend to rouse the Spaniards and the British, &c.

He went on quoting the conduct of the Indians and their threatening manner, when they told you, "go to your own side of the Ohio," &c. What language do they now hold out? But I am not at liberty, said Mr. W., to mention it, as it was confidentially communicated to this House, and read with our doors shut. However, it is well known to all the members present the insolence of that language. For my part, I have little hopes of a peace from any promises of the Indians; and although a negotiation is said to be upon the carpet, I can never depend upon the promises of savages who have so often broken them.

In speaking of the recruits that have been lately raised for the regular army, Mr. W. opposed his opinion to that of Mr. Parker, who mentioned them in such contemptible terms as having been collected from the stews and brothels of the cities, &c. For his part, Mr. W. had often seen them, and he believed they were equal, if not superior in spirit and appearance, to most of the soldiery during the British war, and better than the soldiery were at the close of the war, with some exceptions, such as respects the men who cost £300 each. Before he could quit the subject, he begged leave to mention another instance of the efficacy of regular troops; it was the affair of General Wayne's surprise, when the light-horse dismounted, and cut the militia to pieces, and the infantry drove them off at the point of the bayonet.

He ridiculed the idea of calling out a militia upon every emergency. Where are they to be formed? In Pennsylvania it would be attended with a tenfold loss, if they must quit their daily labor. He would admit that the character of the Kentucky militia had been brave and intrepid; but there was still occasion for a new war, and no ultimate protection afforded to the frontier.

The Governor of North Carolina had complained of a friendly Indian being murdered, &c. On the whole, he thought it improper to take militia to fight Indian warriors. He admitted that some abuses might have been practised in the regular army, but they were as little, if not less, than in any other army he could remember.

He insisted that the scheme of the Department of War was not a scheme of the Secretary, but a scheme of the United States from the President down to the members of the Legislature, and the meanest of their constituents. He took a retrospect of the great skill of the President after Braddock's defeat. The President must be the best judge of the disposition of Indians, and the best way of treating with them; he approves the scheme of the present war, and shall we imprudently attempt to change his plan, by sending out a few men to be knocked on the head by the Indians, as those coat men were? so called by the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Parker,) but instead of coat men, he, Mr. W. thought they might also have been called petty-coat men, &c. He finished his observations by again remarking, that the calculations of the gentleman (Mr. Steele) who had introduced the motion for reducing the present war establishments were founded in error and ought not to have any weight with the House.

Mr. Steele.—When the House have deliberated upon the merits of the gentleman's arguments, and the truth of my statements; and when they have decided the question, I will submit to their decision; but, in the mean time, I insist that my calculations are founded on the reports of the Secretary and the public printed documents on the table, of the appropriations and laws, &c. I wish the gentleman (Mr. Wadsworth) had told us where he has found those papers, from which he attempts to controvert such authentic documents as I have quoted. I wish he had made the House understand them; for my part they appear unintelligible.

Mr. Wadsworth said it was from the laws.

Mr. Steele explained some things in his former statements; and in reply to some suggestions that might be thrown out with respect to his indelicate mode of attacking the Secretary of War, or the President, he defied any member to show that he had acted beyond the line of his duty, or that he had ever shown any disrespect towards the President. On the contrary, he was of opinion that that gentleman's character would for ever be secured against all the possible attacks of ingratitude or malice, &c. He also used some other very handsome expressions on this occasion. But whilst he was ready to declare these things, and to prove that he had no personal intentions of injuring the Secretary of War, yet, he would not suffer himself to be deprived of his privilege, whilst he had the honor of a seat in that House; and, in the present instance, he thought it his duty to hold up his opposition against the rapid increase of expenses in all the Departments of Government, which he said were grown to an enormous burden upon the people, and unwarranted by the constitution; that they therefore ought to be immediately checked. He hoped, for the future, gentlemen would confine their arguments to measures, and not apply them to persons. He sat down, for the present, with this proviso: that he would reserve to himself the right of answering to what might be advanced against his proposition, which he could prove to be salutary; and that the present system is fundamentally wrong.

Mr. Hartley was against adopting the motion under the present circumstances of the country, and he entered into a particular investigation of the merits of the question. When the last law for the more effectual protection of the frontiers passed, the subject now under consideration was very fully and ably discussed, and the gentlemen who were averse to the augmentation, had several alterations made to satisfy them.

Instead of the President's being obliged to raise the whole of the three regiments, he was to exercise his discretion either to make the augmentation complete, or raise a part, and he had authority to disband them after being raised.

The 12th section of that law is thus expressed: "It shall be lawful for the President of the United States to forbear to raise, or to disband after they shall be raised, the whole or any part of the said three additional regiments, in case events shall in his judgment render his so doing consistent with the public safety."

We should therefore consider whether circumstances have so materially changed since that time as to render it proper that the Legislature should interfere, repeal the powers given to the President, and discharge the three regiments. This necessarily leads us first to view the situation of our finances, and the state of the frontiers at and immediately before the time of passing the law. The extent of our revenue was not as well known then as at present, and every good man deprecated the misfortune which obliged him to increase the taxes. The war was a disagreeable one, but necessary, if peace could not otherwise be obtained. The Legislature considered the expense, and were of opinion that we had means and abilities to defray the same. Many murders and ravages had been committed by the savages on the frontiers. One army had suffered in the year 1790, and nearly a whole army cut off on the 4th of November, 1791. And we had every reason to suppose that the Indians would act in great force against us. Our finances are still respectable. It is true, I should be happy if we could apply the money towards discharging the national debt already contracted, but the unfortunate situation of our frontiers prevent it. War, though an evil, may (from the present disposition of the world) be sometimes necessary, when nations are unreasonable and justice cannot be otherwise obtained. Hostilities have lately been committed on our troops commanded by Major Adair, and several of the Southern tribes show themselves inimical, and we have no absolute assurances that we shall have peace in the spring. The agreement by some tribes to a suspension of hostilities, was only convenient to them as it protected their families for the winter.

The great object of the additional armament was to obtain peace: this is not yet effected. May we promise ourselves more success in negotiation by laying down our arms, or by retaining them? History is in favor of the latter. Indeed, I hold it as a maxim, that the nation which is prepared for war can most easily obtain peace. For my own part, I can discover no existing causes for altering the system established by the act to which I have before referred. The expense has been made a very serious objection. It ought to have weight; but where measures have been proper, America has not regarded it. She has freely expended her treasure to support her rights. We are bound in justice and honor to protect our fellow-citizens on the frontiers; we demand from them an excise. They require from the General Government protection. I am for making peace with all the Indians upon reasonable terms; but any country which has been fairly purchased from the Indians, they should not be permitted to repossess or hold by conquest. If an offensive war be necessary says the gentleman from North Carolina, regular troops are not the most proper to carry it on. They are more expensive, and unfit to meet the savages of the wilderness. As to the expense, I have partly answered before. But if the gentleman is to have five expeditions in one year, I believe he would find that his calculations are not correct: a misfortune to either detachments or party would bear very hard upon the district they came from; the partial loss of regulars would not be equally felt, very few of them having families.