REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE Railroad Riots IN JULY, 1877. (continued 8)
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A. That evening—Saturday evening—we did not get to throw any water. But the chief engineer can give fuller details than I can about that.
Q. Did you call on the mayor for protection in any way for your fire department?
A. Not personally, but the chief of the department, I think, did.
Q. Was the fire department protected by the police?
A. No.
Q. During Saturday night or the day of Sunday?
A. Not that I know of. We were the only department that kept up any organization in this city at that time.
Q. You say you did keep up your organization?
A. Yes, perfectly, and we followed the line of the fire all the way down Liberty street clear to Union depot.
Q. During the entire riot you preserved your organization?
A. Yes. I was attacked once near the grain elevator. I was directing a stream of water on the hotel opposite, and they thought I wanted to put water on the elevator, and they attacked me; but I got away, as I was on horseback.
Q. If your fire department had been protected by the police, could you have controlled the fire?
A. We could at the inception of it—when they started burning the cars. Only one car was lit at that time.
Q. The fire department, you say, is under the control of a chief engineer?
A. Yes; he has supreme control of the fire department, and in case of a large fire he is assisted by the commissioners.
Q. Is he subject to the order of the mayor?
A. No; he is not. He has nothing to do with the mayor.
Q. He is subject to the orders of the commissioners?
A. Yes; he is directed by them, but he has supreme control of the fire department. If he wants the assistance of the commissioners he sends an alarm for them.
Q. In case the fire department needs protection, to whom ought you to look for that protection?
A. I suppose to the head of the police department of the city.
Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether any demand was made upon the chief of police for protection?
A. Not of my own knowledge.
Q. Is the fire department a paid department?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see the fire when it first started?
A. I saw the first of it—the first torch applied to the first car.
Q. Where was that car standing?
A. Beyond the round-house. And I thought they had an engine up there. They would fire one car and start it, and fire another car and start it, and fire another car and start it.
Q. Can you give us the street where it was?
A. I think they were all above Twenty-eighth street—the cars that were started.
Q. You thought they had an engine to start the cars?
A. I thought so—either that or a large gang of men. They started so rapidly.
Q. When those cars came down, where did they stop after they were started?
A. They came down—the whole yard was packed with cars down below the round-house, and they had the switches so arranged that they ran down to the round-house. They were trying to burn out the soldiers. It was very plain what their motive was.
Q. The motive, at first, was not to destroy the railroad company's property, but to burn out the soldiers?
A. That was the motive, to my mind, as I viewed it from the hill.
Q. What were those first cars loaded with?
A. I cannot tell that.
Q. With oil?
A. No; they were freight cars first that were fired. Afterwards they started the oil cars down.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. As the fire progressed on Sunday morning, what seemed to be the motive?
A. It was general destruction then. They started the oil cars early Sunday morning.
Q. What time did the troops get out of the round-house?
A. I did not see them come out. I only know from newspaper reports.
Q. Did you see the mob as it approached the depot with torches, and the burning of Union depot?
A. No; I was at work on another part of the fire.
Q. How large was the mob during Sunday?
A. It would be hard to form an estimate. It was an immense crowd, for squares on Liberty street, breaking cars open and stealing—ten thousand or fifteen thousand anyway—just streaming back over the hill, taking the things away. Thousands of them were carrying away everything imaginable, and going to the south side with them. They passed my house—crowds of them.
Q. Who were ahead—the men with the torches or the plundering posse?
A. The torches were first.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. In what manner did the mob interfere with your men?
A. They would not let them get to the fire.
Q. They stopped your men?
A. Yes; they just got ahead in front of the horses and caught the horses by the head, and swore they would shoot the drivers if they would go any further.
Q. But they did not assault your men?
A. They interfered in every way they could. One of our men caught a man going along with a sword-cane punching holes in the hose, and he knocked him down, and took it away from him. They have that cane now.
Q. Did you not have one of your fire engines in position to play on the fire when the police offered to protect you from the mob, but your men did not then play on the fire?
A. The chief engineer can tell you that. I was not present when that occurred.
Samuel M. Evans, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At 190 Fourth avenue.
Q. What was your official connection with the fire department in July last?
A. I was the chief engineer.
Q. How long have you occupied that position?
A. Since last May. I was the assistant chief for two years, and the engineer of a company before that, and the foreman of a company before that. I then resigned for sometime, and was then elected engineer afterwards, and was then elected assistant chief engineer, and then elected chief.
Q. State when the first alarm of fire was given?
A. On Saturday night, about eleven o'clock.
Q. From whence did the fire proceed—what part of the city?
A. The corner of Twenty-sixth and Penn streets—it was there the box struck.
Q. What did you do?
A. When the alarm came I was in bed. They fetched my wagon to me, and I went out there, and when I got to Eleventh street—driving there—they got in my way—certain parties—and called out: "You son of a bitch, don't lay any hose—you son of a bitch." But I said to them, "you can go to hell;" and I started on. It was on the street, and I went at a pretty rapid gait. When I got out as far as the "Independent" house, Mr. Coates, one of the fire commissioners, said to me: "Sam, drive in here, quick." I drove then into the engine house, and then went to Twenty-eighth and Liberty streets where the mob was. I looked up and saw the fire. It was a car—it appeared to be an oil tank car. At first, No. 7 was between Twenty-second and Twenty-third streets on the right side of Penn, in the gutter. They had no fire in the engine, and I said: "Where's your fire?" And they told me they had put a pistol to the head of the fireman, and made him draw the fire. I told the engineer then to turn her around and take her down to the house and to fire up again. They went to the house, and I told them to stand there so as to be ready to go into service if we could get into service. Then they came up with a big gun on wheels—a cannon—pulling it along on the street. After they got up to where a few hose carriages were, they came to Twenty-third street—and I said, "what is the matter?" And all they said was to point the gun at us and said: "If you don't get out of that we'll blow you to hell." I said we had better come down here than go there. While I was standing there, an alarm came from East Liberty. I went out there, and when I went out there I thought probably it was the stock-yards, but I found it was a solitary house away down on Negley's run, a mile or a mile and a half from the railroad. Then I told the engine company at East Liberty to stay there in case they would burn Mr. Pitcairn's house, or set the stock-yards on fire, and that we would manage to get along without them. So they did not come in. Then I came in, and I think at eight minutes after three it was, when they sent a signal in that the fire was out. There was a big crowd on Liberty street, and somebody asked me to let them lay a line of hose to save Mr. Hardie's stable, and some property belonging to Mr. Denny. I told the foreman then of hose company No. 1, to lay a line of hose up Liberty street from Thirty-first street, and that if any stables got on fire, or any private property, to throw water on it. Then four men stopped me with guns, and asked me what I was going to do, and I said I was going to lay a line of hose; and they said, not a God damned line of hose. But I said to them that I was going to save private property, and then they said, that I could throw water on that, "but that if you throw any water on the company's fire we will shoot you and cut your hose," and everything else. While coming in they were carrying goods away from the cars. Everybody you would see, had a bundle on their shoulders or their heads.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What time of night was this?
A. Between three and four o'clock in the morning. I came down to Twenty-third street, but we could not go into service at all. They were shooting at that time out of the machine shop and the round-house.
Q. Who were shooting?
A. The soldiers, and the others were shooting out of the board pile.
Q. Firing at the round-house?
A. Yes; they took this gun and planted it in the street to shoot into the round-house, and these men in the round-house, when they would go to sight this gun, would shoot them. They had this gun loaded with links and pins belonging to the railroad company. After the fire started, I think it could have been stopped before it set the round-house on fire. I think at that time it could have been stopped, because in the morning, about six or seven o'clock, they commenced running down the wall—a crowd of them—and then pushed the cars up along the Allegheny Valley track, and when they would come to a car afire—one man I noticed particularly jump up on a car, and stop it alongside of another car afire. Then when it would catch fire they would open the brakes, and let it go down to the round-house. Then they threw something out of the round-house, and stopped the cars there, and then they got to throwing water out of the round-house on the cars. I was down on the corner of Twenty-third street when two rough looking customers came down, and asked me where the place to stop the water off was. They said they are throwing water out of the round-house. I told them to go to the head of Twenty-sixth street on Liberty, and that they would see a big iron plate in the middle of the street, and that they should lift that up, and put their hands down and stop it off. They said they will pick us off, and they wanted to know if there was no place in Penn street to stop the water off. I said no.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You knew they could not stop it off?
A. Yes; I knew they were rioters, and if they went where I told them they would shoot them, perhaps.
Q. You did not give the information for the purpose of getting the water stopped off.
A. No; I knew that they could not stop it off.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were these two men strangers?
A. Yes.
Q. You are very well acquainted about Pittsburgh?
A. Yes.
Q. Did this crowd—all of them—seem to be citizens?
A. Some of them did, and some did not.
Q. What were the citizens doing?
A. Standing there—a great many of them—but they were afraid to speak or to do anything for fear of getting hurt—those that felt like stopping it. A good many were arrested. I saw the "black maria" very busy taking men down to the station-house, and I asked the policemen how many were arrested, and they said one hundred and thirty or one hundred and forty, for stealing, and in the morning I asked a man what they did with them, and he said that the mayor had fined them three dollars and costs, and let them go. I said they were all thieves, and he said that nobody was there to identify the property. I said it was not necessary to identify stolen property.
Q. Did he get the three dollars out of them?
A. That is what the policeman said—three dollars and costs.
Q. He did not let them go until he got that?
A. That is what he told me.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What time was the round-house set on fire?
A. About seven o'clock in the morning.
Q. How was it fired?
A. From cars on the Allegheny Valley railroad.
Q. Is that on Liberty street?
A. Yes; the track is on top of the wall until you come to a little piece on this side of Twenty-sixth street, and then it comes down and gets level with the payment—between Twenty-fifth and Twenty-sixth streets it begins to get on a level with the payment. These cars were stopped between Twenty-sixth and Twenty-seventh streets. One fireman told me—a fireman of Engine Company 8, in Philadelphia—that he got the water ready to throw, or was handling the line, when he said there was a car loaded with liquor in it burning, and it ran down into the cellar of the round-house, or the shop on the other side, and that that was what drove them out so that they could not do anything. When that liquor, burning, ran down into the cellar, it set the buildings on fire.
Q. Did any of your engines play on the fire on the railroad?
A. No; they would not let us. And we had as much as we could do after the fire started. As fast as the fire would come along we would move the engines down.
Q. How many engines had you?
A. Eleven of my own, and the chief engineer of Allegheny came over and fetched me three.
Q. They would not allow you to play on the railroad property.
A. No.
Q. Did you ask protection from the mayor?
A. I do not know that I saw him but once. He and Roger O'Mara came up Penn street in a buggy, and turned out Liberty, and then O'Mara came back some way without the mayor.
Q. Did you ask for protection?
A. No; I did not see anybody to ask.
Q. Do you know of any protection given to you by the police?
A. No protection at all, sir. If I could have got protection when I first went out to the fire, we could have kept the other cars from burning. We could have pulled them away sufficiently far to stop the oil tanks from setting any of the rest afire, and kept them cooled off.
Q. Do you think that the police force of the city could have protected you so that you could have played on the fire?
A. If they had not been demoralized, they could. If they had had a police like the New York police, they could have kept the crowd back.
Q. How many men would it have taken to protect you sufficiently?
A. After the fire got started, it would have taken right smart, but before that I think that one hundred and fifty or two hundred men could have stopped the whole thing, because police can do more than soldiers.
Q. We have testimony that the police offered to give protection to one engine?
A. Let the police come up and name the engine. I saw that in the papers.
Q. Do you know the parties referred to?
A. Motts and Goldsmith. They came out in the papers and said they went to one man named Kennedy, and told them that they would give protection, but I went and asked them, and they said that they never came to them at all.
Q. These gentlemen will testify to that?
A. Yes; I can have them at any time at all. I will fetch them to you. None of them came to me; and I am the proper person to come to for a purpose of that kind.
By Senator Reyburn.
Q. Were you about on Thursday or Friday?
A. No.
Q. You say that a couple of hundred or one hundred and fifty policemen could have driven the crowd back?
A. On Saturday, one hundred and fifty policemen, well armed, and staying together, could have moved the crowd away so that they could have moved the trains.
Q. But you were not there?
A. Not until Saturday night, when the alarm was given.
Q. On Saturday and Sunday morning, when you were there, were the police doing anything to prevent the pillaging?
A. After I came back from East Liberty, I saw the police arresting people for stealing. The "black maria" was busy taking them down to the station—the Twelfth ward station—and then running them down to the Central station.
Q. From what you saw, do you think it would have been possible for the police to have stopped it?
A. It would have been impossible for what was there to have stopped the mob. They could catch the people when carrying things off.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you a witness before the grand jury?
A. No; this is the first time I have been called upon.
By Mr. Englebert:
Q. Did you see any of the soldiers?
A. Yes; about the round-house. As soon as the soldiers went out of the round-house we went into service, and kept right on then. We could not go into service before, because they were firing both from the round-house and from the board-pile—the rioters.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. When the soldiers came out of the round-house, did they come out in ranks?
A. Yes. As soon as they came down on to Penn street, I noticed a squad on each side watching the houses and buildings and alleys, and the men with the Gatling gun were watching behind.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were they well handled and marching orderly, or were they demoralized?
A. No. They marched out orderly. You could not have told from the way they looked that anything was the matter. I expected to see them come out and run every way, and I was astonished. When they began coming out everybody ran from them, but when they saw them come out in good order, and keep in a good line, then they began to stand still again—the people did.
Samuel A. Muckle, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In the Twenty-third ward, Pittsburgh, at the present time.
Q. Where were you residing in July last?
A. In the Fourth ward, Allegheny city.
Q. What business were you engaged in all that time?
A. No business at all at that time. I was employed by the railroad before that.
Q. What position did you hold on the railroad before that?
A. Conductor.
Q. Of what road?
A. The Pan Handle.
Q. Passenger or freight?
A. Freight, at that time.
Q. Was there any pre-arranged plan among the railroad men for a strike?
A. None that I know of—if you speak of the strike that occurred in July.
Q. Yes?
A. None that I know of.
Q. Was there any arrangement being made among the men for a strike to take place then or any other time?
A. We had an organization here at that time, called the Trainmen's Union. Of course, if I have to answer all these questions, I am willing to answer them, if they do not conflict with this organization. Of course, I went into that organization, and I am under an obligation.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Oath bound?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. It is a secret organization?
A. So far as our own business is concerned.
Q. As far as you can, you will give us what information you have upon the causes of this riot, and whether it was pre-arranged among the men?
A. The organization is not in existence to-day, but I still feel myself duty bound to the organization. I will answer this. There was a union called the Trainmen's Union—an organization—and there was a talk of a strike in June. It was to have taken place on the 27th day of June. That fell through, and with the strike in July, we had no business of that kind.
Q. What induced the men to arrange for a strike on the 27th of June?
A. This organization was gotten up for the benefit of the railroad men—for their own protection—for to protect them in anything that might be brought up.
Q. What class of railroad men?
A. The transportation department entirely.
Q. Including conductors and brakemen?
A. Yes; and engineers and firemen.
Q. Did it include any passenger conductors and brakemen?
A. Yes.
Q. The whole?
A. Yes; when I speak of transportation, I include the whole transportation department.
Q. Was it the ten per cent. reduction made on the 1st of June that induced the men to arrange for that strike?
A. I do not know that it was positively that, more than some other grievances that might be brought up. It was organized more for the protection of ourselves in any grievances that might be brought up. Of course, the ten per cent. would be included.
Q. Were there any other grievances except that ten per cent. reduction?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Had the men any grievances or complaints to make outside of that, when it was talked of that a strike should take place on the 27th of June?
A. I believe there were.
Q. What were they?
A. In regard to the classification of engineers and the amount of pay they received, &c.; that was something I did not particularly understand at that time.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. The object of the brotherhood was to abolish this classification?
A. The object was to protect themselves.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. They considered this grading unjust?
A. Yes; they considered it unjust, which it certainly was.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You did not organize a strike for the 27th of June in regard to any future grievance.
A. No.
Q. It was the ten per cent. reduction and the classification of engines that induced you to arrange that strike for the 27th of June?
A. Yes.
Q. In arranging for a strike, what did the railroad men propose to do—stop all trains—just simply quit work?
A. In case of their striking, they simply proposed quitting work themselves—standing still or going to their homes, or wherever they wished to go. I never heard of any arrangement made as to what they would do.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were any resolutions passed in your body to stop trains?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were there any resolutions to interfere with the men who desired to work?
A. No.
Q. You said it fell through. What broke off that arrangement to strike on the 27th of June?
A. It was because it was generally thought it was not solid enough; it was not worked in the right way.
Q. How extensive was the arrangement—how wide did it extend?
A. I did not think it was very extensive; at least, I did not think it was very solid.
Q. Do you know how many organizations this Trainmen's Union had in existence—how many lodges?
A. I am not prepared to say; I do not know.
Q. Did it include all the trunk lines?
A. I think it did.
Q. Did it include all the employés of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. It included all those who joined the order.
Q. What other roads?
A. Most all the roads out of Pittsburgh; in fact, I guess all the other main roads.
Q. Where did that union originate?
A. I believe in Pittsburgh.
Q. When was it abandoned?
A. Previous to the strike.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Then there was no organization at the time of the strike.
A. No; we had no meeting for some time previous to the strike.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. For how long previous?
A. Not within a week, and that was very small. The meeting called last was called without the approval of the right party in this union. His attention was called to a poster struck up on a telegraph pole by a certain party, and I rather think it was put up just as a burlesque in the first place. There had not been a regular meeting for some time previous to the strike.
Q. Can you tell what induced them to abandon the union?
A. I have my own idea, but I don't know whether I am right. My impression always was that the railroad men, in connection with the Trainmen's Union, were afraid to attempt it for fear of being discharged from the road. I claim it was lack of nerve on the part of the men. I was discharged myself after the first trainmen's meeting I ever attended, and I am satisfied I would still be a union man if there had been any men with me.
Q. When did you first learn of the strike on Thursday, July 19?
A. In the neighborhood of eleven o'clock, in the forenoon.
Q. Had you any intimation of it before that?
A. Not in the least. In fact I was surprised, and I didn't believe such a thing was going on until I walked to Twenty-eighth street, and saw it to be a fact.
Q. When you got there who did you find there?
A. A few railroad men, and I believe a few policemen were there, and some citizens.
Q. How many railroad men were there?
A. I cannot tell you that—I suppose twenty or thirty or forty or fifty. A great many of those men I didn't know.
Q. What road were those men working on at that time?
A. I think the majority of them belonged to the Pennsylvania railroad.
Q. What were they doing?
A. They didn't appear to be doing anything. They just appeared to be standing around talking.
Q. Was there any effort made to move any trains while you were there?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Were any made in your presence?
A. Not just in my presence. I believe they undertook—that is only hearsay—but I could see from Twenty-eighth street down towards where they started the trains west of Twenty-eighth street, and I think on Friday I saw a few engines apparently coupled to trains. Whether they intended to go out is more than I can tell of my own knowledge. I know they didn't go out.
Q. Did you see anybody try to start a train on Thursday?
A. No, sir; I didn't see anybody try to start a train during the trouble.
Q. Were you there during Thursday night?
A. I was not there during any night.
Q. What was the object of the men assembling at that point?
A. From the understanding I had from the men, after talking with a few of the men, it was that they had struck against the double-headers.
Q. Were those men members of the Trainmen's union?
A. Some of them.
Q. Why were they assembled in force on the track?
A. That is more than I can tell what their motive was.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they say about it?
A. Nothing particularly—nothing more than that they had struck.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you talk with them?
A. I talked with some few of the men I knew.
Q. Did you admonish them that it was wrong to be assembled in such large numbers there?
A. No.
Q. Was anything said about that?
A. Not that I know of. I was not in a very good humor just as I got up there. I had been insulted just before I reached Twenty-eighth street.
Q. By whom?
A. By Mr. Watt. When I reached there there were only a few of those parties that I knew.
Q. The Trainmen's Union, at that time, was not in existence?
A. They had not had a meeting for some time previous.
Q. Did they have any meetings after that?
A. Not that I know of.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was the organization formally disbanded?
A. It just died out. They had no meetings called of the order.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. When did this union start, to your knowledge?
A. It was about the latter part of May, I think, or the 1st of June.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. As a member of the organization, what action would your organization have taken in reference to that unlawful assemblage there?
A. My idea is that they would have discountenanced anything of the kind—any burning, or pillaging, or anything of that kind.
Q. Or any interference with trains?
A. That is more than I can tell. I cannot tell anything about what men will do after getting started.
Q. Would your organization have any means of disciplining the members of it who interfered with the movements of the trains?
A. Most certainly. Our order had a head.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You mean to say, in your organization, according to the rules and regulations of it, if they struck, they passed resolutions that no trains should go out?
A. I didn't say anything of the kind.
Q. Was it the intention of the men to interfere with the movement of the trains?
A. Not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard any such resolution, and I never heard any person speak of it that way.
Q. Do you know any of the men that did interfere with the movement of the trains who belonged to the union?
[Witness did not answer.]
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. In that arrangement to strike on the 27th of June—how extensive was that strike to be—how far was it to extend—what roads was it to include?
A. It included the roads running out of Pittsburgh, so far as I know.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. What roads are they?
A. The Pennsylvania railroad, the Pan-Handle, the Fort Wayne and Chicago, the Allegheny Valley, and the Cleveland and Pittsburgh.
Q. Was the Baltimore and Ohio not included?
A. I cannot say particularly.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was your organization notified of this strike that took place on Thursday, the 19th?
A. No, sir; no more than what I told you, that I was met on the corner of Eleventh street, near the Rush house, and told of it, in the neighborhood of eleven o'clock.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. You said you were discharged on account of being a union man?
A. I am positive of it—at least the message I received bore nearly about the same words, but not just in that way.
Q. That, of course, was a grievance?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did your Trainmen's Union include the employés of the Baltimore and Ohio road?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that strike in pursuance of an arrangement made in your union?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Was that formally communicated to your union here—the strike that occurred there?
A. No; nothing more than hearsay on the street.
Q. Did the members of your union make any effort to have those parties disperse and go to their homes during Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?
A. Not that I know of—no more than I did myself.
Q. What did you do in relation to it?
A. I did take some men out of the crowd at Twenty-eighth street, men that belonged to the Pan-Handle road. At Twenty-eighth street, that day, I was met by this Watt. He says to me, I want you to leave this property. Watt was the man; but I didn't know him only by sight. I thought, of course, he was an employé of the company. He said, I want you to leave the company's ground, and I asked him who he was. He replied that it didn't make any difference who he was, that he knew who I was, and my motive for being there. I said if he knew my motive he knew my business better than I did, for I hardly knew myself what I was there for. And after trying to give me a bluff, as I call it, that he was Mr. Watt, and employed by the road, I went up towards Twenty-eighth street, and there understood that they were going to send for what they called the Pan Handle roughs to head this trouble. I knew the great majority of those men—between eighty and a hundred of them were discharged off the Pan Handle road, and had been discharged prior to this strike. The majority of them were in town; some had left town; but a great many of them were here, and they were pretty lucky if they could get one meal a day. I didn't want to see any of them get into further trouble, and when I heard this I was afraid that some of those men would enter into this thing through persuasion. I went to them singly, and took some half a dozen out of the crowd, one at a time, and told them not to have anything to do with the affair. I said, I have been discharged from the Pan Handle, and you, and there will be nothing in this of any benefit at all. I took out six or eight men from different parties that had belonged to the Pan Handle railroad.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they mean by sending for the Pan Handle roughs?
A. They thought that a few men of that road were rougher than anybody else, or had more pluck. I don't know—it was a rumor I heard.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Those men you spoke to went with you willingly out of the crowd?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were you on the ground of the Pennsylvania railroad, or on public ground?
A. It was on their ground. I was walking right up the track. After this man was going to bounce me, I walked up to Twenty-eighth street, and I told him I thought I would have the privilege of standing there on the street.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by bouncing you?
A. Why, if I had weakened a little, I suppose he would have thrown me off.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were you there during the day, Sunday?
A. I was not. I was not on the ground at all after Saturday evening—after one of our engineers was wounded very badly. I helped to carry him up Liberty street on a shutter. I was not on the ground afterwards.
Q. Did you see any considerable number of the Pan-Handle men or employés in the crowd?
A. Not a great many.
Q. Who seemed to be the leaders of the crowd?
A. That is more than I can tell you.
Q. What business are you engaged in now?
A. Not any.
Q. Do you reside in the city?
A. Yes.
Q. You are still out of employment?
A. Yes; and likely to remain out so long as some of these men hold their positions on the roads.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What position did you hold in this organization?
A. I was the president.
Q. You know nothing of this organization being in existence at that time on any roads except those that ran out of Pittsburgh?
A. At which time?
Q. At the time the strike was contemplated, in June?
A. They might have been contemplating such a thing, but the organization at that time, in June, was not so extensive as it got to be afterwards.
Q. Then it did increase afterwards and extend?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether it did exist on other roads in June?
A. I don't know.
Q. You think it started here and spread?
A. Yes.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You say it started here?
A. Yes; I believe so. It was first organized here.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Were you here at its birth?
A. Yes; and I have no objection either as to being at the first meeting.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was it beneficial?
A. It had not got that far along, but it would have been, probably.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was it the object of this organization to control the railroad companies, as to wages and running regulations?
A. The object, no doubt, of the organization was to protect themselves, no matter what grievances might be brought up, if based on good authority. The union would attend to them in its own way, whatever it might be.
Q. In what way did they propose to protect themselves?
A. That would have to be brought up before the order before they could tell that.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Then there was no definite plan by which the railroad companies were to be controlled or coerced into coming to terms with the union?
A. No.
Q. That was left to be determined as circumstances might arise?
A. That is it exactly.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You said, a while ago, that this last meeting you spoke of was not regularly called?
A. No.
Q. You would have been the proper person to call it?
A. Yes.
Q. It was not done at your instance?
A. If it had been called it would have been through me. I had nothing to do with this poster on the telegraph pole; but after being on the pole for a half day, I concluded, rather than dupe the men, to let them meet, but nothing was done.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Do you know how many members of this organization there were in Pittsburgh at the time of the contemplated strike in June?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know how many divisions there were in this city?
A. No.
Q. Have you any idea?
A. In Pittsburgh?
Q. Yes?
A. Three or four in Pittsburgh—three, I think.
Q. How many members belonged to the division you were connected with?
A. That is a question I cannot answer—I cannot tell.
Q. Can you give an approximate estimate of the number in Pittsburgh, at that time?
A. Four or five hundred.
Q. Was there not an understanding in the union, that whenever there were differences between the train men and the railroad companies, that the railroad companies were to be brought to terms by the members of the union, by striking on some particular day, without any notice to the companies, so that all traffic would be stopped?
A. I don't know of anything of that kind.
Q. Was there not some such talk, that that would be the most effectual way of bringing the companies to terms?
A. There was a great deal of wild talk among the men.
Q. There was no such proposal made in the union?
A. No.
Q. And no definite plan was adopted by the union to act upon the railroad companies in any way?
A. No.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. When any men wanted to become members of the organization, did they have to pay any initiation fees or dues?
A. They would have had to in course of time, but, up to that time, it was more a charitable institution than anything else. Anybody that had five cents or a quarter, and wanted to give it, could give it.
Q. There was no specific sum at that time?
A. No.
Q. Nor since?
A. The union is not in existence.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by a strike—a railroad strike—what is the usual custom—what do you mean by it?
A. What I have always understood by a strike, is the men quitting work.
Q. You understand that they are all to quit?
A. Most undoubtedly.
Q. For the purpose of stopping traffic—the running of trains?
A. If that would stop it—most undoubtedly.
Q. Is it customary, in railroad strikes, for the men who quit work, to stop others from working, by violence or otherwise?
A. I have never seen it—by violence.
Q. Only by persuasion?
A. Only by persuasion. I have heard about a great many men being stopped, but, if our railroad men would get up and testify—I have heard railroad men claim that they wanted to work, but there was not one of them, that was not in the mire just as deep, while the thing was going on.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You mean the trainmen?
A. Certainly.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What class of men did you take into your organization?
A. Men belonging to the transportation department.
Q. No outsiders—no mill men?
A. I believe not.
Q. Had you a constitution and by-laws?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you got them in your possession?
A. I have not.
Q. Who has?
A. That is more than I can say.
Q. You don't know.
A. No.
Q. Have you a copy of them?
A. I have not.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Can you give us the names of any men that would be willing to appear before our committee, and give information about the strike or their grievances?
A. Yes; an engineer by the name of John Hassler, residing on Wood street, the second or third door to the left of Bidwell. I think he would be an important witness; also, an engineer by the name of William Robb. He lives in the lower part of Allegheny somewhere, but I cannot tell his residence exactly.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You say that the union does not exist now. Do you know of any other organization that is organized to produce the same effect.
A. No; no more than what has always been in existence. The locomotive engineers, of course, have their union.
G. Gilbert Follensbee, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Pittsburgh.
Q. Where is your place of business?
A. On Fifth avenue—No. 42.
Q. What is it?
A. I am in the clothing business.
Q. In company with some other gentlemen, did you call on the mayor during the disturbance in July last; and, if so, give us the circumstances?
A. On the evening of the 21st of July, (Saturday,) between seven and eight o'clock, I heard that parties had got into some gun stores, and I went to my friend Mr. Bown, and then found Mr. Edward Myers; and after talking a while, we thought it would be prudent to see the mayor, and tell him that we thought it would be prudent to get a posse, and come down and protect Mr. Bown's gunshop. We saw the mayor, and said: "You are probably aware that some gun stores have been broken into;" and we implored him to send a posse to protect the gun stores.
Q. What reply did he make?
A. I do not remember his reply, but he seemed to be very indifferent, and I implored him, for God's sake, to do something, and that we three would volunteer, and that probably with fifty men or less we could protect Mr. Bown's store.
Q. Did you offer to be sworn in?
A. I volunteered to be one of the posse.
Q. What reply did he make to that?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did he say in response to your application—did he say whether he had the policemen or not, or did he make any excuse that he could not raise them?
A. No; I do not think he made any reply in regard to his police. I was aware that his police were small and scattered around the city, and my idea was to have him swear in some of us as special police.
Q. Did he refuse to swear you in as special police?
A. He did not take any action in the matter.
Q. Did he send anybody to the store?
A. Not that I am aware of.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did the mob come there?
A. Yes; Mr. Bown left his store and came to my store, and while there, we heard the mob.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How long before the mob came down had you made this call upon the mayor?
A. Two hours, at least—two hours—an hour and a half or two hours. Before the mob got there, I went back to Mr. Bown's store, and asked him if there was no place to secrete the arms, and they took them down into the cellar and vault and secreted a good many of them.
Q. Did you see the mob?
A. Yes; I saw the mob in the store, but not in front of the store, because we had gone in the rear private way. We could see the store full of people—probably one hundred to one hundred and fifty were in the store.
Q. What class of men were they?
A. They did not seem to me to be any particularly riot element, so far as appearances were concerned. They did not look like tramps or roughs.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you suppose they were citizens of Pittsburgh?
A. I suppose so.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did they take away any more arms than they wanted themselves?
A. I do not think they left any.
Q. Was there any ammunition in the store?
A. I was so informed.
Q. What was done with that?
A. They took the ammunition too.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was the mayor aware of those arms and that ammunition in the store?
A. It was the most prominent gun store in the city.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Could any force of determined men have stopped the riot?
A. I am only speaking about that gun shop, and I think that from thirty to fifty determined men could have prevented the riot at that place.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You were willing to be one of them?
A. I said so.
Q. Did you tell him you wanted a force to guard that gun store?
A. Yes; I said for God's sake do something to protect that gun store. I looked at it this way: That it would be terribly fatal if the mob were to get in and get guns and ammunition.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did the major know who you were?
A. Intimately.
Q. You are intimately acquainted with him?
A. Yes.
William H. Bown, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What is your business?
A. I belong to the firm of James Bown & Son. Our place of business is located on Wood street, and our business is cutlery and guns and revolvers, and all kinds of sportsmen's articles.
Q. Do you keep ammunition, also?
A. Yes; powder and shot and caps and wads.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. Fixed ammunition, also?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What efforts did you make to secure protection during the riot?
A. My father went to see the mayor, with Mr. Follensbee. He went early in the day to Mt. Washington, to see a shooting match. We were not aware of any excitement in the city, but word came to me. In the afternoon I saw a telegraphic dispatch from some one about the mayor. It was the mayor's clerk that brought it down—setting forth that there was a mob organized to break into the different gun stores that evening. I judge between five and six o'clock that came down. He wanted me to remove all our arms. I said that it was so late in the day that I did not know where to place them—that we had a large number, but that, nevertheless, we would try to remove all we possibly could. I then got both the porters and took the arms out of the windows, and a lot of ammunition, cartridges, and cans of powder, and I got some paper and covered over it, to convey the impression to those passing along that we were about cleaning the window, and I left the paper there to disguise it. I had not commenced to take out the arms in the cases. We had two cases that run about sixty feet long. I went to supper, and about six o'clock, when I came back, I found six policemen at the store, but the mayor's clerk came down about seven o'clock, and said they were required at the Central station. Shortly after that father came. He could not get into the front, from the fact that we had the wire across and the screens put up, and I had also gone out and got a couple of scantlings, and put them against the doors, and braced them against the counters. I did not anticipate that they would break in the large glass windows. We had commenced to take down the arms and put them in the magazine, which we have in the cellar, where we keep the powder, and we got down, I should judge about forty, and were kept pretty busy in getting them down, when the large alarm bell struck and I heard the glass go. I came up the stairs, and when I got to the top I found they had knocked the lock off, and I immediately went down, but I could not find the key. I was in my shirt sleeves at the time, but I closed the bolt and put out the gas and came up stairs, and just as I came up I met two parties right at my desk—I had a desk where I do my correspondence—and one of them says, "why in the hell don't you turn up the gas?" I suppose he took me for one of the party who came in. I passed him and went on up stairs, and stayed there until after the racket was over.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Where was the mob?
A. On the lower floor; of course they came up stairs, and then I went up to the third floor.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What was their manner as to being boisterous or demonstrative?
A. When they came in there, I thought bedlam had broken loose.
Q. What class of men were they?
A. What we term from the south side—I judge workingmen. They would just come to the cases and break them in. A few of them had old muskets.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. That they brought with them?
A. Yes; and one party was very kind, and left his and took a new gun.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. After these policemen were taken up to the central station, did any of them return?
A. That I cannot say, but I understood from those that came in after the mob went away, that they were out there, but the mob was too large for them to handle.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. Did the mayor's clerk come down and order those policemen to report?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he take them away from your store?
A. Yes; at that time everything was quiet about the city.
Q. He had notified you that there would be an attempt made?
A. It was reported that there would be an attempt made on the different gun stores.
Q. Yet he took these policemen away?
A. Yes; because at that time there was no excitement at the lower end of the city.
Q. Did they return before you were driven out of the store by the mob?
A. I did not see them; but I cannot say.
Q. But were they ordered back for duty before this mob came?
A. I understood that, but I did not see them. I was in the store at the time, and did not come down, because I thought discretion was the better part of valor.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You saw that dispatch?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was it signed by?
A. I did not notice. I think a fictitious name was to it. I did not notice any name to it, particularly. It was the mayor's clerk. It was late, and all our help had gone off, and the boys had gone to supper, and I was alone, with the two porters.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. How many guns and pistols were taken out of your store?
A. Something over four hundred. They took everything—carving knives, butcher knives, and forks, and ammunition, and cutlery—everything they could take.
E. A. Myers, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At No. 60 Liberty street.
Q. Where is your place of business?
A. No. 145 Wood street.
Q. You are connected with the office of——
A. I am connected with the of the Post.
Q. Relate what occurred when you went to the mayor?
A. I may say that Mr. Bown, senior, came over to my place, and he and Mr. Folensbee went with me up to the mayor, to notify him to send policemen down. After we went there, the mayor at first said he was unable to send any assistance, as the police were scattered through the city, but he would do the best he could. We went to Mr. Johnston's gun shop, a short distance above the mayor's office, and staid there awhile, and came down to the mayor's office, and then walked down to Mr. Bown's establishment, and remained there sometime, without the police coming. Then Mr. Bown and myself went back again, but on the way we met them coming up—we met them coming up—some six or eight of the police—coming; and there were at least six or eight policemen there during the disturbance. The crowd that came up, I don't think, at first numbered over seventy-five or eighty—half grown boys. There seemed to be half a dozen armed with muskets, but a large crowd was collected around the streets.
Q. What effort did the policemen make to drive them back?
A. Nothing, whatever; but they staid there. I spoke to the mayor's clerk; I said there were not enough of them to do anything, but they staid there.
Q. Was the crowd armed when they came there?
A. They apparently had a few muskets and guns with them, as far as I could tell.
Q. Did you offer your services, as a policeman, to the mayor?
A. Not as policeman specially, but I offered to do anything that I could to defend the place—not to the mayor, but to Mr. Bown. Mr. Follensbee, I believe, did.
Q. Mr. Follensbee did?
A. Yes; my impression at that time was, that fifteen or twenty determined persons could have stopped the whole rumpus in front of Mr. Bown's place.
Q. Did the mayor make any demand on the citizens for help?
A. Not that I know of. The mayor told me that his police force was scattered around so that he was unable to get together enough to be of any special service. But they did, however, gather up six or eight of them, and they came down here.
Joseph S. Haymaker, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At Laurel station, on the Fort Wayne railroad.
Q. State what you know of the riot that began on the 19th of July?
A. I believe it was on Saturday—I think that was the 20th of July—that I came up to the city. I had been home sick for almost two months before that time. I went out to Twenty-eighth street, and at the time I went there I found a very considerable crowd of men there. I knew a very few of them. The great majority of them seemed to be strangers. I say this from the fact that owing to my political knowledge in the city, having made many political speeches here, I had gotten to know a great many men. When I came to Twenty-eighth street that afternoon, about two o'clock, I found a large number of men—probably from twelve hundred to fifteen hundred—right across the railroad track at Twenty-eighth street. I met some men I knew, and we were talking over the probability of a difficulty between the troops and the strikers; and these men, or one of them, said there was no danger of the soldiers firing on them—that the people of the State of Pennsylvania were with the strikers in this matter. Whilst we were talking in that way, the Philadelphia soldiers came up the railroad. I was asked the question two or three time, whether or not I thought the soldiers would fire on the citizens, and I said I would not trust them, and, so far as I am concerned, I am going to get out of the road. They are strangers here, and if ordered to fire will fire. If they don't, they are not good soldiers. I was standing then right in front of what they called the sand-house. Three or four gentlemen were there at the time with me, and John Cluley, the painter. I said to them: now, I have had a little military experience during the last war, and I said we will get out of this and go down the hill-side. I got them to go with me. The Philadelphia men came up, and formed on both sides of the track, clearing the track by forming a square, open at the lower end. At this time I was on the hill-side, about eighty or ninety feet, probably one hundred feet, above where they had formed. In that formation of the square there was a portion of a company—I suppose about twenty or twenty-five men—that had yellow plumes in their hats—Philadelphia men—who were swung off from the left of the square, and tried to force back the mob from Twenty-eighth street. Failing in that, then a company was brought up from the lower end of the square—brought right up between the two lines in this way, [illustrating,] right past where the Gatling guns were stationed, and brought face to face with the mob. They marched up until they were within probably twenty-five or thirty feet of the mob, and then halted for about a second. At that time I noticed the sheriff's posse standing in front of where they were standing, trying to get the mob to move back. Then these men moved at a charge bayonet, and went right up to the mob, and I saw several of the mob catch the bayonets and push them down. Then I saw three or four stones thrown from the little watch-house. These stones were thrown right through into this company coming up. Then I heard a pistol shot fired, and probably two or three seconds after that three or four other pistols shots were fired just like that, [illustrating,] and then I saw two or three of the soldiers go down. Then the stones began to fly down along the line, in among the soldiers, and the firing first began right across the railroad track. I don't know what company or regiment it was, but they had black feathers. They were right in front of this square, and the first musket firing began there. I noticed that. Then I heard, probably a dozen of boys hallo shoot! shoot! down along the line, then the pistol shots began, and the musket shots began, and I got down in a ditch behind where I was, and staid there until it was all over.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. This call of shoot, shoot, where did it come from?
A. I won't be sure about that. I saw some of the officers strike up the guns with their swords, and I saw some pulling of the men backwards inside the square. Then, just right after that, there was a general volley right along the line.
Q. A volley or a scattering fire?
A. File firing—each man for himself.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you hear any order given by any officer to fire?
A. No; nor do I believe any order was given. I say that, for the reason that, had there been an order or command given, there would have been simultaneous firing, but it seemed to me, when the fighting commenced, that everybody was taking care of himself.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. That is, they were protecting themselves from something that was going to injure them?
A. No; but as fast as a man got his gun loaded he would fire, and as fast as the others could get a brick they would throw it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What effect did the firing of the soldiers produce on the crowd?
A. Right by me, on my right hand an old man, and a little girl on my left hand, were shot dead. I got into the ditch, and I know it was full—the ditch.
By Mr. Means:
Q. It was not a regular volley of musketry?
A. No; it was every fellow for himself.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you know how many persons were killed there?
A. No; but when I came up from the ditch—it is not a regular ditch, but a wash down the hillside—when I raised up, somebody else was shot, and I got down again. When I raised up the second time everything was quiet. I looked down over the bank, and several men were lying there dead.
Q. You say that an old gentleman was killed?
A. Yes.
Q. And that a little girl was killed?
A. No; she was shot right through the knee, and I pulled her down into the ditch and tied a handkerchief around her leg. There was a physician there—I think Dr. Schnatterly, of Bellevue, and he took charge of her, and I heard she died that night.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. This crowd standing there—what business did they have there?
A. They had no business there.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. Had you any business there?
A. None at all; but I had never seen a strike before, and I went up to see what it looked like. Right down along the railroad there was probably ten feet of ground, or twelve feet—right along the railroad, in front of the troops, occupied by a class of men that I had never seen in the city of Pittsburgh before—ragged looking and dirty looking. There is one thing about Pittsburgh people, that you can tell them on the street—at least, I think, I can. I walking along the street, if a man comes from Philadelphia or any other place, I think I can tell him. In other words, I know he don't belong here. I don't know the reason why, but we get to notice our own people, and I say that that crowd of people along there I never saw before. They looked here [illustrating] like people that I never saw before. I believe them to be strangers not only to Pittsburgh and Allegheny county, but to Western Pennsylvania, and, in fact, to the State of Pennsylvania.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How large was that crowd?
A. There were five hundred or more of them fronting the railroad.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. There is a kind of a platform there?
A. The road runs along six feet below the bank, and then the bank runs back about fifty feet, and then the hill commences for one hundred or one and fifty feet above that.
Q. Did this crowd throw stones?
A. Yes; and just here I will give another reason why I believe that crowd to be strangers in the city of Pittsburgh. The most of our men here—our laboring men—wear dark clothes, but I saw men in that crowd with light pantaloons, and yellow pantaloons, and two men with velveteen coats, and those men seemed to me to be making the most noise down in front of the soldiers. At that time, in my mind, I thought they were tramps. Of course, I can't say that of the whole crowd, but I say that the men making the demonstrations were men of that class.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did that fire from the militia disperse the crowd?
A. Yes; in firing, very unfortunately, they fired over the heads of the people there, and killed the people above. If they had lowered their guns eight inches they would have killed a class of men that we could very well get rid of.
Q. Did they disperse?
A. Yes.
Q. In what direction?
A. Some went up the hill-side, and the mob in front of Twenty-eighth street, ran down Twenty-eighth street to Penn.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did the soldiers attempt to shoot at them as they ran up the bank?
A. Yes; I suppose the firing lasted a minute and a half. The soldiers began firing right down the line, and probably some of them fired four or five shots. When the crowd broke, they ran up among the people on the hill-side, and some of them ran into the ditch where I was. The rest of them went on up the hill-side. I noticed one thing, that the old soldiers dropped flat down when the firing commenced, while the others ran.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You mean the old soldiers in the crowd?
A. I mean that.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you think that force of soldiers, with twenty rounds of ammunition, could have held their position and kept the crowd off during the night?
A. Not as strangers, they could not do it. I mean this—had that force been posted as to the situation here, they could have done that—they could have kept the mob off with half their number; but not being acquainted, I think they did about the only thing they could do. The only thing lacking under the circumstances—I have had my own opinion since that time as to what I think I would have done, without any more knowledge of military affairs than I learned in the army, and I would have taken charge of this ditch that I was in, and have put the men in there for the purpose of controlling the round-house and the tracks below. But then there was a danger to be taken into consideration, that along the hill above this ditch, there were houses on the hill-side occupied by railroad men and by strikers, and by men in sympathy with them, so there would have been a danger there, because there would have been firing from the rear—in other words, if people had gone on the hill-side, and opened fire down from the hill-side, they would have had to abandon the ditch—or, on the other hand—my idea of the matter would have been to have picketed Penn avenue and Liberty street very heavily, and have kept those streets clear, from Twenty-eighth street clear down. When you consider that a crowd or a mob is always cowardly, so that the firing of eight or ten men into it will break it, I really believe that the best plan would have been to have picketed Penn avenue and Liberty street—to have kept these streets clear, and then if necessary, to have picketed the upper side of the railroad track, which would have formed a square of pickets, whereby to preserve the cars. Yet, at the same time, I will say that these picket lines would have been subjected to a fire from both sides—from the hill-side above, and from the houses below. I went home on the six o'clock train that evening.
Q. Could General Brinton have taken his troops then, and marched them down towards the Union depot, and kept the crowd back, or kept the crowd above?
A. No; but the mistake that General Brinton made was this, that when he began firing he should have kept it up.
Q. How long?
A. Until every man in the city of Pittsburgh was willing to stop.
Q. Do you think, in your judgment, with the number of men they had, with twenty rounds of ammunition, and with more ammunition over in the Union depot, that they could have maintained their ground there and kept up the firing, and kept the mob back, and kept up communications with Union depot, in order to replenish their ammunition?
A. If he had continued his firing from the time the firing began at Twenty-eighth street, most undoubtedly he could. But after that, when General Brinton got into the round-house, where there are open windows—the house is perfectly round—at that time he was at the mercy of every building.
Q. But I am speaking of the time before he went into the round-house, and after the crowd had dispersed—at that time had he continued firing, could he have maintained his position and kept the crowd away?
A. Yes; fifty men armed as those men were armed—because I noticed that every time a gun struck, it tore a hole like that. [Illustrating.] Following that mob would have dispersed them.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. Would not that have caused great loss of life?
A. Undoubtedly—if they had fired low.
Q. What is your avocation now?
A. I am a lawyer by profession.
Q. You practice at the bar here in this city?
A. Yes.
Q. From your experience in the army, and from what you saw of the conduct of the troops at Twenty-eighth street, would you say that their conduct was good as military men?
A. No, sir; not a bit of it. Every man that fired first should have been taken out and shot. In other words, I mean that there was not a particle of discipline. I say that for this reason: There was no order given to fire by any officer. I believe that to be the fact, because I was on the hill side not more than sixty or eighty feet away from where the firing began, and I had been there some two hours before the firing did begin. I was standing there wondering how the men were going to clear the tracks, and when the fight began I was listening very closely in order to hear what command would be given by the officer in command. Then this fuss began with three or four pistol shots, and then the bricks and stones were thrown, and then more pistol shots, and then it was every man for himself. So far as those soldiers were concerned, I have said since, and believe it to be a fact, that it was one mob armed against another mob not armed.
Q. Was not the conduct of those soldiers as good as could be expected from militia men?
A. I do not know that. I have seen militia men during the war that would walk up to the scratch, and stay there. The great trouble with militia men is that they fire too high.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Do you think there was any real necessity for calling on the militia for assistance here?
A. I would not like to give any opinion about that. I know that the sheriff started out a lot of his deputies to get a lot of lawyers out here, and the lawyers went out—of the back windows, and every other way they could get out. I never believed that the sheriff exhausted all his power.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You believe, then, it was necessary to call out the military—that the difficulty had got beyond the control of the civil authorities?
A. I believe that. I believe it was necessary to call out the military—but to use them. In explanation of that, I would say this: that even after the military were here, that the city of Pittsburgh was panic struck, and that young men were taken up on the streets and were furnished with arms, privately by the different banks, to go in and guard the banks, because, on the Monday night following the burning, it was rumored on the streets—on Fifth avenue, and on Wood, and on Smithfield streets—that the banks were to be attacked that night, and I know of several banks in the city that were guarded by young men picked up throughout the city. I believe it to be a fact, that, had the trouble lasted two days longer, there would have been a vacation of the city by the women and the children in the city of Pittsburgh. I believe they would have gotten out of town.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. You state you spoke to some people about the probability of the troops firing on the crowd. Who were those people?
A. I cannot recollect.
Q. Were they part of the crowd—the strikers?
A. No.
At this point the committee adjourned to meet at three o'clock this afternoon.
AFTERNOON SESSION.
Orphans' Court Room. Pittsburgh, Tuesday, February 12, 1878.
Pursuant to adjournment the committee re-assembled at three o'clock, P.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.
Joseph S. Haymaker, recalled.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What sympathy did the rioters seem to get from the surrounding crowds of spectators?
A. Do you mean on Saturday?
Q. Yes.
A. I can hardly say; I was one of the party myself. Do you mean after they were fired into?
Q. From that time until Monday.
A. On Saturday, the 20th of July, the general feeling seemed to be, up to the time of the firing, that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company had not done exactly what was right with their employés.
Q. To what extent did that feeling exist in the community?
A. I cannot say about the community, because I was at my home sick for six weeks before that time. I can only speak of the crowd that was there at the same time I was. So far as that was concerned, I suppose they felt about as I did, that as they were getting pretty good pay for their shipments, and everything of that kind, it seemed to be kind of rough, to cut down their wages so much. It was a kind of general feeling, that the railroad company had not done exactly what was right with their employés, but I found nobody who could give me a definite explanation of the reason why the people of Pittsburgh should be against the railroad company—that is, I could not find anybody who could give me any reason why there should be any strike between the people of the city and the railroad company, on account of the way the railroad company had treated their employés; but immediately after the fire was over, I did not hear any question of that kind raised. The prevailing question was how we were going to get out of the trouble we were in.
Q. In your judgment, would it not have been proper for the officer in command of the military force, at five o'clock on Saturday afternoon, to have given the command to fire?
A. I most undoubtedly think it would have been.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. There was sufficient provocation to justify the giving of that command?
A. Yes; my recollection is, I heard an order given by some officer, commanding either a company or a regiment of the Philadelphia soldiers up at the front of the line that was formed there—an order given to those men to disperse and go back, and I think he gave the order in this way: "Now," he says, "why don't you men go back?" It was half a minute after that when I heard the first pistol shot fired, and then from that the firing began. I think, that when the order was given to go back and clear the tracks, that he would have been justified in ordering the men to fire, although I heard no order to fire.
Q. And followed up the firing until he dispersed the crowd?
A. I believe that.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What troops were on the ground at that time?
A. I do not know. I simply know this. That certain troops or uniformed men came up the Pennsylvania railroad from the depot, and formed in line in front of the upper round-house, at the corner of Twenty-eighth street, and at that time some of our Pittsburgh soldiers were on the hill side above—some of our Allegheny county soldiers on the hill side above.
Q. But those on the railroad were Philadelphia troops?
A. I believed them to be from Philadelphia.
Q. Do you know anything about the conduct of the Pittsburgh troops called out here during that day, or any time during the riot?
A. No; except this far, that when I came up to Twenty-eighth street, and before the Philadelphia soldiers came up there, I walked across Twenty-eighth street, up the hill side, where there was part of a company—part of one of the western Pennsylvania companies, or a Pittsburgh company, I do not know which it was, and when I got to the top of the hill side I was a good deal out of breath——
Q. After the firing?
A. Before the firing—probably an hour before. There was one of the private soldiers belonging to some company—I do not know any thing about him. He had a uniform on, and I asked him the question: "How long have you been here?" and he said, "since last night." I said, "how long are you going to stay here?" and he says, "I don't know." I said, "you may likely be called upon to clear the tracks down there;" and he said, "they may call on me, and they may call pretty damn loud before they will clear the tracks." At the same time, I looked in the man's face, and I thought he might be called upon to all eternity before he would do anything reasonable. The company, at that time, was scattered—standing all around.
Q. Was this company far from the mob?
A. Probably one hundred feet—probably one hundred and fifty feet.
Q. Were their arms stacked?
A. Yes; I know that after the firing, one dead soldier was carried down from about the spot where I had been talking to this man, down to the Twenty-eighth street crossing.
Q. Were the men with their guns where they were stacked?
A. Some of them were down on the railroad track, and some were on the hill-side, and some were around their guns, and some were back towards the hospital.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Didn't you say those were Philadelphia troops up at Twenty-eighth street?
A. Yes; that is, I understood that.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You spoke about those strange men you thought were strangers in Pittsburgh, that had come from a distance. Have you any knowledge of people coming to Pittsburgh at any time previous to the 19th of July?
A. I can say this in reference to that, but as a lawyer I would say that part of it is hearsay evidence, that is, I do not know it to be a fact myself. I live below Pittsburgh, about seven miles, on the Fort Wayne road, at Laurel station, and I know from the time I went down last spring, we had much trouble with tramps. Probably two or three, or four or five, or six or seven, would be there every day. But about four days before this trouble—it was on the Friday before this trouble—at that time I was not at home sick—I recollect my wife saying to me, that "we have had no tramps down here for the last few days," and I said, "they will come back again," and until after the rioting and the burning here, we had but one tramp at our house, until the third day after—that was on Sunday. Then they began to come back every day. I have heard others of my neighbors say the same thing. And almost every night, looking from my library towards the river, I could see along the river bank that these tramps would have fires, and I have seen, when I would come down to the train in the morning—I have seen as high as fifteen or twenty around these fires. But for two or three days before the riot—that is, before the burning here, and for one or two days after that time, I noticed very few of those fires, if any, and we were not troubled with these tramps at our house; and after the trouble was all over, it made such an impression on me, that I loaded a double-barreled shot gun, and told my wife how to use it, and told her if they came around not to do anything for them. I did not consider them fit subjects for charity.
James Bown, sworn with the uplifted hand.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What is your business, and where is your place of business?
A. Nos. 136 and 138 Wood street, Pittsburgh.
Q. What kind of business do you carry on?
A. It is the cutlery business—guns and sporting goods in general—manufacturing.
Q. I wish you to state what efforts you made to protect your store on the night of the 21st—Saturday night. You went to see the mayor. What efforts did you make?
A. I was absent from the city until about seven and a half o'clock that evening, and when I came to the store I found it was shut up. I met my second son there, and I asked him what the trouble was. Well, he said the mob had broken into some of the pawnbrokers, up in the Fifth ward, and also into one of our competitor's. I asked him where my other son was, and he said at the back end of the store. I got into the back yard and went into the store and found them there making preparations to take some of the valuable guns into the cellar—into the vault. It looked as if things were serious. I said, "I will go out and look around, and see what the trouble is." They commenced to put away the goods as fast as they could. Of course they had to use great judgment about taking the fine guns into the cellar. I was away perhaps half an hour. As soon as I went out into the alley, I met Mr. Follensbee and Mr. Myers. I said, "Things look serious around here." The mayor's clerk was there, Mr. Metzgar, and perhaps half a dozen people were congregated in the alley. He said, "Gentlemen, you had better disperse. We would rather not have anybody around here, so as not to excite anybody." I told him it was a good suggestion, and Mr. Myers and Mr. Follensbee and myself went into our yard. It was then pretty near dark. I said, "Let us go up to Smithfield street, and see what they are doing." I understood there was quite a crowd in front of Mr. Johnston's, another competitor of our's. We went up the alley and then turned to the left and went down towards Sixth avenue. An immense crowd was in front of this gun store, but had done no damage. Several policemen were in front of the store. In going through the crowd several sang out, "Let's go down to Bown's, and clean him out." I said, "That sounds pretty loud, and we had better go and see if the mayor won't send back some police." We came back to the mayor's office, and there the mayor was, standing outside. I went up to him, and addressed him as "Mac." I am rather familiar with him. I said, "We require some extra police down there, as they are going down to our store to clean us out." He said, "I will do all I can for you," and said that a good many police were up at Mr. Johnston's. I said, "It is necessary to act quick and prompt, as the crowd is now moving, and it won't take them long to come there." Mr. Follensbee spoke up, and said, "I will be one of fifty special police." I do not think he made any reply to that, but he said, "I will send some down." With that I left, and came down to the store again. Some people were in front of the store, and I think among them, perhaps, were two or three policemen—I think there were. I was more interested in securing the things just at that time, so I went into the store again, and the boys were still working, taking down the guns. They had got the pistols—the greater portion of them—into a safe we had, and Mr. Follensbee suggested to me to come around to Fifth avenue to his store. I went back through Mr. Carter's store, and went with him into his store. I was not in there two minutes until an immense rush of people came past the store, and they shoved the doors to. I said, "Open the doors, I want to see what the trouble is." I was running across the street when a friend of mine said, "There is no use in your going; they have got in." I knew a road coming through another gentleman's store and through Mr. Carter's store, and got into the back yard. The crowd was then in the store and securing all the things as fast as they could. Then Mr. Follensbee followed after me. Of course, he remonstrated outside as well he could. Everything was barricaded up so that we could not get in. I will tell you one thing that occurred there. A negro had got at my private desk and got open the drawers, and was pulling out the things, and had got among the postage stamps when we hallooed at him. The language we used was pretty severe, and he dropped everything and ran. In a few minutes, as soon as things were quieted down, we got a policeman—we tapped for him to come and open a window, and we got in. Of course, then the destruction had taken place.
Q. How long after you made that call on the mayor was it that they broke into the store?
A. Not over fifteen to twenty minutes.
Q. Did he send any policemen down?
A. Some were there in front, but I cannot say how many. Some came after the thing was over, but whether they were outside, I do not know.
Q. He made no reply when Mr. Follensbee offered to do special duty?
A. No reply at all.
Q. Nor did he make any demand on the citizens?
A. No.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Those parties took away general plunder, did they?
A. Yes.
Q. They did not come specially for guns?
A. They took everything—knives and pistols and spoons and forks and carving knives and fishing tackle, and everything they could.
Q. It was simply a party bent on plunder?
A. Yes; it was just a mob. I do not charge it on the strikers.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Did you ever get track of any of those guns.
A. We got four out of the lot—those were left by parties—men that came out with three or four and just handed them to us. They preserved them for us.
Q. You never got track where they went?
A. No; we had a good many guns with marks on them—numbers, and some guns—a special kind of guns—that there are very few of here.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. About four hundred of them?
A. Yes.
Q. And a great variety of other things?
A. Yes.
Q. You recovered none of the guns?
A. No.
B. K. Walton, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You were one of the deputy sheriffs in July last?
A. Yes.
Q. State whether you were in the city during Thursday, the 19th, and during Friday.
A. I cannot say as to Thursday or Friday—I do not think that I was. I was on Saturday.
Q. State to us just what connection you had with the riotous proceedings?
A. On Saturday I was one among the deputies instructed by the sheriff to get up a posse. I went along several of the streets and asked several parties to come up. Some said they would come and some said they would not. However, not more than one or two came. We went on up to Union depot to the railroad and from there went up with the military to Twenty-eighth street. There appeared to be a crowd on both sides of the railroad, and along the railroad, as we went up. There was a great deal of turmoil and noise. We were not up there more than a few minutes until the firing commenced. Stones and pieces of bricks were thrown before the firing commenced.
Q. Where did you try to raise a posse?
A. In the streets here.
Q. To what class of men did you go?
A. To most anybody that we could get hold of—citizens of Pittsburgh.
Q. What responses did you get usually?
A. Some said they would not go under any consideration and others promised to go, but did not come when the time came.
Q. How many did you succeed in getting?
A. Out of ten or fifteen that promised to come, I think only one or two came.
Q. Did you go outside of the city in trying to raise the posse?
A. No.
Q. How many did you say there were of you that went ahead of the military?
A. I think there were from twelve to eighteen of us ahead of the militia from Union depot up to Twenty-eighth street.
Q. When the crowd began to throw stones, was it at you or the militia?
A. It appeared to be at the militia altogether.
Q. Were any of the sheriff's posse hit?
A. Not to my own knowledge.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was not the sheriff struck himself?
A. Not that I saw.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Whereabouts did the sheriff's posse stand when the stones began to be thrown?
A. Some were on Twenty-eighth street, and part of the party were on this side a little piece, not more than ten or twelve feet apart.
Q. In front of the militia?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you when the militia fired?
A. On the crossing at Twenty-eighth street. Part of the crowd had got in between me and most of the others and the militia. We got mixed up at that time.
Q. Did the militia fire towards you?
A. The first firing appeared to be up the hill, and the second up the railroad where we were standing.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. I got behind a car.
Q. Where did the balance of the party go to?
A. I do not know where they all went to. Some were where I was.
Q. Did you call on any of the constables to go out with you?
A. I do not believe I did myself.
Q. Were you out during Sunday?
A. Not in connection with the office; but I was out myself.
Q. Did you see the fire?
A. Yes; I was on the hill pretty much all day above the Union depot.
Q. What time did you get on the ground?
A. I came over in the morning about nine o'clock. I live just above the top of the hill.
Q. How far had the fire approached towards the city at that time?
A. A considerable distance below the round-house.
Q. How many men were engaged in burning and running down the cars then?
A. A great many of them.
Q. Two or three hundred?
A. Yes; more than that.
Q. How many policemen would it have taken to have driven them away at that time?
A. I do not think there were enough in the city at that time.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did the sheriff command the mob to disperse before the firing?
A. I believe he did; but I was not up with him the first time he was up.
Q. What effort was made by the sheriff and his posse, or deputies, to clear the track before the military came up?
A. They tried to get them off the track—they talked to some of them, but they appeared to want to get at the military. When we got to the crossing, part of the party got away, and that is how a part of the mob got in between us and the military.
Q. Were you close to the military when the firing commenced?
A. Within ten or twelve feet, I think.
Q. Did you hear any command given to fire?
A. None whatever.
Q. If there had been a command given you would have heard it?
A. I think so—I was close enough. There appeared to be a good deal of noise going on at the time.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You were not with the sheriff on Friday night when he went up to Twenty-eighth street?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether he made any effort that night to raise a posse or not?
A. I do not know of my own knowledge. I was not in the city on Friday night?
Q. Did you see the crowd on Saturday morning?
A. Yes.
Q. How large was it on Saturday morning?
A. A great many people were there.
Q. Do you think a well organized police force would have been able to have driven away the crowd on Saturday morning?
A. I do not know about that. It would have depended on circumstances altogether. It would have taken a pretty good force to have driven them away.
Q. Do you think it would have been possible to have gathered a posse in and about the city—if the sheriff had started out on Saturday morning and made an effort, could he have collected a posse sufficiently large to have driven away the crowd?