REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE Railroad Riots IN JULY, 1877. (continued 34)

Q. When you arrived at the arsenal, did you go into the grounds?

A. No.

Q. You do not know what took place?

A. Not of my own knowledge.

Q. What was the conduct of the troops there under General Brinton, taking them all, during Saturday in the round-house?

A. In my judgment, it was excellent, and, as we marched out of the round-house in the morning, I think the men all kept perfect order. The men were dressed in regular files, and no officer, that I saw, was not in his proper place. There was no confusion among the troops until as we got near the arsenal, when there was a movement made, coming from the right, to close up on a double quick, and that brought the Second brigade in the rear up on us, and that sort of huddled up the First brigade, and made some confusion there.

Q. Where was that?

A. Somewhere in the neighborhood of the arsenal—probably two squares from the arsenal. That confusion lasted two or three minutes, probably, and the Second brigade was just put on the right, and order was immediately restored. At one time there was a little difficulty about drawing the Gatling guns, and I know I assisted myself in pulling a gun some distance with my men.

Q. Was there any demoralization during the night in the round-house?

A. Not a particle—so far as I saw—not a particle.

Q. The discipline was good at the time you were in the round-house?

A. Yes; I had sentinels on front, and they observed their duty perfectly, and my whole command was in excellent condition.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was there any disobedience of orders on the part of the officers or men?

A. No; occasionally there would be a man that didn't have any experience in the field, as there will always be men who will shirk their duty. Once in a while there would be a man indifferent to his duty, but that was simply in isolated cases just as you would see in the army. I saw it in the army of the Potomac. As a whole the discipline of the troops in the round-house was excellent.

Q. You state you thought there was some musket firing or rifle firing from the mob at Twenty-eighth street.

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see any musket firing?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see any muskets or rifles in the hands of the mob?

A. I cannot say that I saw—yes I did. I saw it on Saturday morning after leaving the round-house, as we were going up the street. I saw these men firing into us all night. I saw them have muskets. On Saturday afternoon I saw firing that must have come from muskets. I know the difference, and I judged from the sound and the smoke. The firing couldn't have been done with pistols.

Q. Were any of the military struck by pistol or rifle shots before they commenced firing on the mob?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear any command given to fire?

A. On Saturday afternoon?

Q. After this firing from the mob—following the stones thrown at the military.

A. No; I cannot say that I did. I am positive I did not; therefore I didn't fire nor order my men to fire.

Q. Did you hear a command from any officer to cease firing?

A. I do not remember any command to cease firing.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Did you see General Pearson at that time?

A. I saw him once that afternoon. That is the time we were going up from the Union depot to the Twenty-eighth street crossing; at least I saw a major general I took to be General Pearson.

Q. Did you hear any general give a command in this way: "Order your men to fire?"

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. How was General Pearson dressed?

A. If this was General Pearson, he had a military coat on with shoulder straps, and no sword.

Q. A cap?

A. I think he had a cap on.

Q. You saw no belt?

A. I think he had no sword nor belt.

Q. After you left the round-house and were marching along Penn avenue, did you see any police officers fire at you?

A. No; I didn't see any firing. I saw them in front of a police-station, and I saw them with pistols; but I know a man that did see them fire.

Q. Did they make any hostile demonstration?

A. Yes—no; I cannot say that I saw any hostile demonstrations, except in their manner. They looked at us with a forbidding sort of manner.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did they have pistols in their hands?

A. Yes.

E. Wallace Mathews, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. In Philadelphia—No. 4105 Walnut street.

Q. What is your connection with the National Guard—what is your rank?

A. At present I am not in the National Guard. During the July riots I occupied the position of brigadier general, and was in command of the First brigade, First division.

Q. State whether you were at Twenty-eighth street on Saturday, the 21st, when the collision occurred between the troops and the mob?

A. I was in the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street, near the railway crossing, in command of my brigade.

Q. State what occurred prior to the firing?

A. The troops had been marching in column of fours, preceded by a gentleman in citizen's dress, who was pointed out to me as the sheriff of the county, and directly in advance of us was General Brinton and an officer dressed in fatigue uniform—a major general—who was pointed out to me as General Pearson. We marched toward Twenty-eighth street, in which was a dense crowd. The crowd was pressing upon both flanks, and was very dense in front, on Twenty-eighth street, at the crossing.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You marched with the right in front?

A. Yes. The order of the troops was as follows: The First regiment, under command of Colonel Benson; next the Third regiment, commanded by Colonel Snowden; third an independent company, the Weccacoe Legion; then followed the Gatling guns, with a detachment from some of the different commands to haul them, including one of my independent companies, the Washington Grays. We marched in this order, and we marched into the crowd until we couldn't march any further on account of the pressure ahead of us. Then, by direction or command of General Brinton, when the crowd in the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street became so dense that we could not penetrate it, the fours were wheeled into line, facing our left flank, that is, facing the Allegheny river. Then, by order of General Brinton, the brigade was marched directly to the front, and across the tracks slowly, the men with their pieces at a carry, thus backing the crowd off from the tracks, the purpose being, as I was informed, to clear the tracks. The crowd was pushed gently back, until they were pushed entirely off the tracks that were free from cars; but there were several open cars in the vicinity, and we saw that in attempting to clear the tracks we had already cleared, perhaps, four tracks. Then, by direction of General Brinton, the front rank was left in this place, and the rear rank was brought to about face, and marched to the rear, thus clearing the few men gathered in the rear.

Q. How far did you march to the rear?

A. About twenty feet.

Q. Across the tracks?

A. Yes—twenty or thirty feet—facing the hill so that the front two ranks were facing outward, opposite each other. Their backs were towards the center. The crowd on our right, that is on Twenty-eighth street, were very demonstrative and noisy, and began to press in between the open ranks. By General Brinton's orders, the Washington Grays were brought forward to drive out the crowd between the two ranks. They proved to be insufficient. They were only nine men beside the officer, and the Weccacoe Legion was brought forward to assist them, and General Brinton actively superintended the effort to drive the crowd out. That is where the first mélée occurred in driving out the men who had intruded between the two ranks. As the general took direct command, I didn't interfere. During that trouble some of the crowd, I believe, were hurt by bayonet thrusts, and then commenced pistol firing, and then almost simultaneously from every direction came pieces of coal and stones and all sorts of missiles, in a great measure from the hill and also from the cars—I think some were loaded with coal—and from Twenty-eighth street, mingled with pistol shots and shouting, so that it was a scene of confusion I never saw equaled. We were without orders, and I saw nothing of General Pearson there at that time. General Brinton I saw occasionally moving about in different places. I watched the crowd, because I saw they were very much incensed, fearing for my men. I saw them in several instances seize the muskets of the men, and I knew that many of them were young men, and I feared if such a movement as that became general, they would disarm my men. Consequently, I watched very closely the temper of the crowd, until I became convinced we couldn't temporize any longer, and I gave the command to load.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. How long before the firing did you give the command to load?

A. Not more than one minute, I should judge; and there had been pistol firing.

Q. From the mob?

A. Yes.

Q. Before you ordered your men to load?

A. Yes. Then, before I could take decided action in the matter, the firing commenced somewhere on the right, as near as I could judge, in the ranks of the Weccacoe Legion, or the artillery corps, Washington Grays. I heard no order to fire, and I gave no order to fire. The firing commenced first, a single piece, and then one or two near together, and then it became general on the right of the First regiment, and ran down as far as the center of the regiment, and as far as the close. Immediately all the officers, from all I saw—I remember Colonel Benson and his lieutenant—Colonel Clark—together with the staff officers and myself, attempted to stop the firing. We rushed among the troops in order not only to make ourselves seen, but felt and heard, and gave orders to cease firing. The crowd scattered entirely as soon as the firing commenced. We then moved immediately to the right, covering Twenty-eighth street, and took possession of that, in other words, brought up the Gatling guns, by order of General Brinton, and placed them on the street. One to command twenty-eighth street, and the other to command the tracks eastward. Then a company of the First regiment were brought—as the crowd attempted to cross on to Twenty-eighth street—were brought entirely across that street in the rear, and stretched across the street, in that direction, to keep the people back. Gradually the crowd began to get together in knots, and assemble in our front, and some of the more violent among them, who seemed to be under the influence of liquor or partially intoxicated—some of them came up to within three or four feet, and shook their fists in our faces, and called us vile epithets, in order to break our lines. I saw no disposition on the part of the troops, not even the privates, to hurt anybody, except in self defense. In some cases they allowed the rioters to push through their lines, and get inside. In this way the crowd gathered in little knots, and came nearer, and got more and more bold, until I gave directions for one or two companies commanding Twenty-eighth street to bring their pieces to a ready, when the crowd immediately dispersed, showing that they still feared any application of lead. We then held this position until about dusk, when, by direction of General Brinton, I brought the brigade, marching left in front, into the round-house. There was no explanation given me at the time, so far as I remember, why we were taken into the round-house; but it being night, I presumed we were to be quartered there.

Q. By whose command?

A. I received my commands from General Brinton. We marched into the round-house, and around the circle, nearly covering the entire circle, the Third regiment, under Colonel Snowden, being stationed, as they had followed in line, opposite the Liberty street windows of the round-house. General Brinton and some of his staff and myself, with some of my staff, then went around the building, looked at the windows, and determined to put on a strong guard, and I gave the orders accordingly. The detail was made, and the guard was stationed at those windows, and I then attempted to get a little rest, but, after a few hours, about ten o'clock, some firing commenced, and, after the firing once commenced, there was no such thing as rest. I spent almost the whole night in the round-house proper. Where I attempted to rest was in the building that had been occupied as the telegraph office at the outer depot.

Q. In the round-house?

A. Immediately adjoining—three or four feet from the round-house. We had to increase the guard after the firing commenced. Had to put men at each window on the Liberty street side, and on the side of the yard on that side of the building towards Twenty-eighth street. I think we increased the guard, perhaps, twice during the night. At one time during the night, about one o'clock, I received information that a piece of artillery was in Liberty street, and I immediately hastened to the window, and saw a brass piece, which I judged to be a Napoleon gun.

Q. What time was that?

A. About one o'clock on Sunday morning. Several men were standing about it, and General Brinton was there, and Colonel Snowden. I asked if I should send out a detachment to capture the gun, and bring it in, but he didn't give me direct permission, but gave me some encouragement, and I went immediately to Colonel Benson to consult him about it, and asked for a detail——

Q. Who was Colonel Benson?

A. The commander of the First regiment. While consulting him about this matter, the Third regiment opened fire, as I understood, by direction of General Brinton, on the crowd surrounding the piece, and from that time on there was more or less firing. As the mob would come forward and make a demonstration as if they were going to fire the piece, the men at the windows would fire on them, but, after a time, they restrained firing, and ordered them to go back; and that became a by-word through the division, "Go back, go back, one, two, three," and then discharge.

Q. Was there any firing at that time from the mob outside on the troops?

A. Yes; pistol firing and gun firing—from some sort of guns. From that time until morning there was a good deal of firing. There was one party that was firing an explosive bullet, which would come through the windows and strike and explode.

Q. Explode after they came into the round-house?

A. Yes.

Q. You mean explosive shells, fired from a rifle?

A. Yes; small things. One struck on a column not more than four feet from where I was. I happened to be looking in that direction, and I saw it. First there was a sharp crack, and then I saw the smoke and some white ashes drop down from that spot. From that I knew very well that it was an explosive bullet. Further on towards morning, some burning cars were run in between our troops and the cannon, and from that time on we had very little firing there. Then some cars were stopped on the next building from the round-house, towards Twenty-eighth street, and that building took fire. General Brinton had organized a fire brigade, and had the fires put out. I didn't witness it myself, but understood it. He had put out those burning cars, so the round-house was not set on fire by the burning cars; but the machine-shop next took fire, and we could not find any means to put that out. The burning of that decided our case, for the round-house was connected with that by buildings filled with light kindling wood used by locomotives for firing up, and the burning of that building also sent columns of smoke down into our open round-house and cinders, and after a time the building itself took fire. I was then called after day light into a council, by General Brinton, who stated that he had received orders from General Latta, in case of moving out to go out eastward to Penn avenue—I understood it. There was a young man there from the Jefferson Cavalry, and he told where Penn avenue was—and for that matter, I knew myself—and when it was decided, the general gave me orders to take my brigade out first. I formed with Colonel Benson, of the First regiment, and Colonel Snowden, of the Third, and the Weccacoe Legion, and the Washington Grays, with the Gatling guns, and we issued out upon Liberty street.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. The round-house was on fire?

A. I think the building itself was on fire. At any rate it was only a question of a few minutes. After those other buildings were fired it could not have been saved.

Q. Would it have been possible for your troops to have remained there?

A. It would not have been possible—not many minutes more.

Q. Was the round-house filled with smoke?

A. The whole building was so filled with smoke—the smoke was so dense that it was difficult to see.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Before you left?

A. Yes.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. After coming out and manœuvering in the street, your troops were steady and kept in good order?

A. I was at the head of the line, where I thought my services were most required—at the very head of the line, in advance of the First regiment, nothing being ahead of me, excepting a small skirmish line of a dozen men stretched across to clear the street, and on looking back I never saw a regiment march in better condition, even in the streets of Philadelphia, or march in parade in better order. They had their arms at right shoulder, and were in perfect order. After we had been besieged there and harassed all night, it nerved me, when I looked back at that sight, when I saw those men come out in such gallant style, after being harassed all night, and unaccustomed as they were to fighting. We went down Twenty-fifth street to Penn avenue, and out Penn avenue to the arsenal. From my position at the head of the line, I didn't see any firing in the street. As we went along, people on either side were looking at us, and I was quite anxious about this little skirmish line, and was keeping my eye on them to see that they didn't get nervous, and on that account may not have seen as much as the others. I didn't see any firing from our flanks or in any direction, until we arrived at the arsenal. We halted there, and I saw the guard let General Brinton in, and I think one or two pressed in with them; but after a time they came back again. During that time there was some firing in the rear. We heard them hallooing there, and I distinctly heard firing in the rear, which increased, and then I noticed that the troops in our rear had become somewhat confused, and did not keep their alignment, and some of them came up into my brigade. My brigade then took the left, and Colonel Benson put his regiment in the rear, putting his command on the two sides of the street, so that they could command the windows. Those on the right side of the street commanding the windows opposite, and vice versa.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you march in that form?

A. Yes; and after that we were not disturbed. We marched to the Sharpsburg bridge, and crossed it, and in Sharpsburg we received a few pieces of bread, and passed on over the hill.

Q. From whom?

A. From citizens, I think.

Q. Of Sharpsburg?

A. I think so.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were your troops exhausted by want of food?

A. Very much. I didn't get even a piece of bread, but I saw some that had that. I received nothing personally until we passed a mile and a half, perhaps, beyond Sharpsburg, and there I obtained a little buttermilk.

Q. Just state in this connection what rations the troops had received from the time they left Philadelphia to the time that you reached Sharpsburg?

A. After leaving Philadelphia, received nothing until we got to Altoona. There the men were served with sandwiches and coffee—one or two sandwiches and a cup of coffee to each man. These provisions were handed in to the men. Then on arriving at Pittsburgh they were served with similar things—sandwiches and coffee.

Q. During the night of Saturday you had nothing?

A. We had nothing after marching to Twenty-eighth street.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. At what time did you get the last rations?

A. About three o'clock on Saturday afternoon.

Q. And you did not get anything after that until you reached Sharpsburg?

A. Nothing at all—excepting once in a while a soldier had put into his haversack an extra piece of bread.

Q. And this was three o'clock on Saturday afternoon, until that time on Sunday?

A. Nine o'clock, Sunday morning; and there was no serving of rations in Sharpsburg.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. It was every fellow for himself?

A. Yes: each one foraging for himself. Rations were not served until that night. So far as I saw, everything was paid for that was received. I know that I paid for the buttermilk I received.

Q. Did you know or hear of any order being given to General Brinton by Colonel Norris to move to Torrens station?

A. I heard of no such order.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Or from any one else?

A. No; I asked General Brinton frequently what his orders were, and so far as I know, he told me the orders he had. I heard of no such orders.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. If these orders had been given, do you think that General Brinton would have obeyed them and communicated the fact to you? You consulted together?

A. We did. I think he would have told me certainly if he had such orders. There was hardly any occasion to consult after we left the city.

Q. But during Saturday night?

A. I frequently saw him, and had he received such orders I would have heard of them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you consult with him during the march from the round-house to Sharpsburg?

A. During the march, until my brigade was put on the left, I frequently saw General Brinton.

Q. Did you see Colonel Norris?

A. I didn't see him—to know him.

Q. Do you know him?

A. No; I saw a barouche later in the day in the vicinity of the arsenal, and I heard it stated that Colonel Norris was in the barouche.

Q. You stated that some cars were run between you and this gun?

A. Yes.

Q. What became of the gun after that?

A. I saw it from the windows—from the higher windows—I went up once for that purpose to look after that gun—and I found that provision had been made by General Brinton in regard to it. I think he had stationed some men of the Second brigade in the upper windows of the office of the building near the round-house, and towards which that gun was pointed.

Q. To pick off the gunners?

A. I understood that.

Q. Did you see any one with a lanyard in his hand fire that gun at any time?

A. I didn't. It would have been too dark up to daylight to see a lanyard.

Q. Did you see a light with the gun?

A. I didn't. I was with Colonel Benson consulting, at that time.

Q. Do you know it was a Napoleon?

A. No; I judged it was. I could see the gun distinctly, yet Colonel Benson could not see it at all. I would like to corroborate the testimony of Colonel Snowden in regard to the discipline of our troops in the round-house—of both brigades, so far as I saw them.

Q. In short, was the conduct of your troops commendable?

A. Perfectly so.

Q. Of officers and men?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you had experience in the army?

A. Yes. I entered the army early in 1861, in the infantry—the three months' service—and at the end of that time I raised a battery, and served as captain of that battery for a year and a half. I was then on detached duty for awhile, and then, in the spring of 1863, I rejoined the army of the Potomac as major of the First artillery—the same regiment my battery was connected with—and served on General Doubleday's staff, and was in active command of three batteries in the field, and was with my command in the beginning of Chancellorsville, and later on in the battle I served as chief of corps, and after that battle had command of eight batteries in the artillery reserve of the army of the Potomac.

Q. With the rank of major?

A. Yes.

Q. Of artillery?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know of any communications sent by General Brinton to General Latta while in the round-house?

A. I heard him say repeatedly that he had sent messages and received messages from General Latta.

Q. Did you see the communications from either one?

A. I saw one, but didn't read it.

Q. Do you know the nature of those communications?

A. Nothing except as I have stated that in case of leaving—this was near morning, I think—in case of leaving, to march out Penn avenue—whether it stated march east, or go by way of Penn avenue, it was something about Penn avenue. I knew where that was.

Q. From your experience as a military man, do you consider that it was a prudent move to go into the round-house with the troops at that time?

A. It is very easy to see mistakes after they are made. I can say, however, on general principles, it seemed to me at the time, as it has seemed since, that the first thing to be done was to disperse the mob. Until that was done, there was no safety in going into the round-house. That the troops needed rest, there can be no question. Standing in the sun, many of them had fallen from sheer exhaustion and the heat of the sun. Several of the men were lying about there, and they were applying water to them, if they could get it. There was complaint from all quarters that the men were exhausted, and some seemed to be sunstruck. In that condition, they needed rest, and their commanding officers wanted to give them rest, but it was evident that the mob must be dispersed before there could be much rest for them.

Q. Was not the mob already dispersed?

A. It was on the crossing, but they were continually gathering.

Q. They were re-assembling?

A. Yes; and some were very demonstrative and very violent.

Q. Did you see General Pearson in the round-house, after you retired there?

A. Yes; he was in the telegraph office, which was immediately adjoining the round-house. A building some four or five feet from the round-house. I think they called it the dispatcher's office. It was the office where the wires centered. It was a square building, directly opposite Twenty-sixth street. I saw General Pearson sitting at a desk writing, when I entered.

Q. In this telegraph office, adjoining the round-house?

A. Yes.

Q. How was he dressed?

A. There was not much light and I could not tell, except that he was dressed in the fatigue uniform of a major general. He had straps on his shoulders, with two stars.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Did he have a blouse on?

A. I cannot say.

Q. Did he have a cap on?

A. I don't know. He may not have had any anything on his head in the house. When I saw the officer pointed out as General Pearson, on the tracks, I cannot tell whether he had a cap on or not, but it was something not unmilitary.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. But do not remember whether it was a hat or cap?

A. No. But if he had a silk hat on, with a soldier uniform, I should have noticed it.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Do you know of any telegrams passing between General Brinton and Colonel Scott in regard to General Brinton clearing those tracks?

A. I do not know of any communications whatever, between them; but I am very confident, I am positive, I heard General Brinton say—we said to each other during the afternoon, we have possession of those tracks, and why don't they send out their trains.

Q. Then, in your opinion, they could have sent out trains, so far as you had possession of the tracks?

A. So far as the tracks were cleared up to the point where we were. But we understood the reason to be that the men would not serve.

Q. That they refused to run?

A. That was the excuse we heard; but there was no time during the afternoon, after the first firing, when the crowd were cleared from our immediate neighborhood, and no time, only during the night, that I did not feel as a military officer, that we had command of the position, and were competent to deal with the crowd. The only thing was, that we were lacking rest, and were greatly reduced in strength from hunger.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Did you hear General Pearson give such an order as follows, to the officers: "Order your men to fire," before the firing took place?

A. I did not—nothing of the kind. I heard nothing in relation to firing, except the first fire.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You suppose that the troops fired in self-defense?

A. I supposed at that time, and I don't know that I have any reason to change my impression, that it was an actual shot—the first shot—and there was so much confusion at the time that it would have been very natural for others to suppose the order was given.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You stated that you saw pistol shots fired from the crowd?

A. It would be more correct to say that I heard them.

Q. Did you see stones and missiles thrown?

A. I did.

Q. Did you consider that an assault on your troops?

A. I did.

Q. Did you not then consider the order to fire justifiable?

A. I did.

Robert A. Ammon re-called:

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What day and what time of the day was it you got word that the Governor was coming to Pittsburgh?

A. I think it was on the 24th. I think it was early in the morning, but won't be positive about that. That is my recollection.

Q. Where did you learn he was at the time?

A. He had left Chicago.

Q. What time did you expect him?

A. I cannot state, as the rioters at that point were not aware when he had left Chicago. I telegraphed along to the different trains, and found he was coming on No. 4.

Q. Did you have any communication with him?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you do when you learned he had come in?

A. I knew some men were lying along on the road, and more especially in Ohio, and I had heard the talk indulged in by the men. Some were in favor of stopping the train, and putting the Governor off. So I telegraphed to the men not to do anything to get the Governor down on us. I asked them to do that to please me, and they telegraphed back that they would.

Q. Did you telegraph them to more than one point?

A. No.

Q. To what point?

A. Latonia, Ohio. I then telegraphed to the Governor, extending a welcome back to the State, and guaranteeing him a safe passage. I won't be positive whether he got my message at Latonia or Salem.

Q. Did the Governor communicate with you?

A. No; but the conductor answered "O.K."

Q. Did you telegraph more than once to the Governor?

A. I believe not.

Q. Where were you when the train arrived?

A. At the outer depot, Allegheny city.

Q. Did you see him immediately on his arrival?

A. Yes; in a Pullman car.

Q. You went in and saw him?

A. Yes; I talked with him about five minutes, I suppose.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What was the nature of the conversation?

A. I went into the car, and as I went in the Governor got up and extended his hand, and I sat down alongside of him. He asked what do you men propose to do. I told him what we had done—that we will behave ourselves. He said that he was glad of it, that he wanted the peace of the State preserved, and that he was glad to see us disposed to save property. He wanted to know if he could do anything for me, and I said nothing, but I would be glad if he would come out on the rear platform, and say something to the boys. He did so, and made a little speech.

Q. How did you introduce him?

A. I just said "boys, this is Governor Hartranft." I pulled the bell cord, and we went up as far as the round-house, and had the train stopped there, and Mr. Perkins, the master mechanic, jumped aboard, and I spoke to him for a while.

By Mr. Means:

Q. How did the boys take the remarks of the Governor?

A. They gave a cheer. I went on to Federal street with him, and a delegation from Pittsburgh met him with carriages, and took him across the river.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you go across the river?

A. Yes.

Q. With the Governor?

A. No; in the crowd that went over. Before I left, I had his car switched over on the West Penn road.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What is your age?

A. Twenty-five years.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were you at Torrens station on Thursday?

A. No.

Q. On Friday?

A. I came by there on Thursday night or Friday morning.

Q. Were you there when the sheriff came out?

A. I was not.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. At what time were you arrested?

A. I was arrested on the 30th of July, about three and a half o'clock in afternoon.

Q. Was there any preliminary affidavit made?

A. I was arrested on a bench warrant, issued by Judge Ewing.

Q. Who made the information?

A. Chauncey McCoy.

Q. Of what road?

A. Of the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago.

Q. Have they ever taken any steps to bring on your trial?

A. No. I have asked for my trial repeatedly, but have never got it.

Q. Have you asked for your discharge?

A. No; because I don't want a discharge.

Q. Have you demanded a trial?

A. My attorney has asked for my trial. That is what I wish.

Q. Are you under bail now?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you go to Pittsburgh and renew your bail every time?

A. When my bail expires my bond is sent to New York, and I take it to a notary public and sign it, and he puts his seal to it, and I send it back to Pittsburgh.

Q. What is the amount of it?

A. Fifteen hundred dollars.

Q. What are the charges made against you?

A. Misdemeanor, under your own railroad act of March, 1877.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. I wish you would state once more just what is the object of the Trainmen's Union?

A. It was to resist this reduction of ten per cent., and to see if we couldn't bring the company to terms, and get them to look into our condition, so that anything of the kind should not occur again. We thought our labor skilled labor, and we were running great risks, and we thought we ought to earn more money, that instead of reducing it they ought to increase it. The object was to get up a union so strong that the railroad magnates would have to listen to us.

Q. Did you intend to strike?

A. We did, if they did not accede to our demands.

Q. What is a strike?

A. It is a body of men acting together for the purpose of quitting work in a body—to strike, and leave the work alone—as we understood it in the Trainmen's Union. We understood it that every man should leave his work at a given day and hour, and go to his home.

Q. Go to your homes?

A. Yes.

Q. You claimed no right then to interfere with those who desired to work?

A. No; but we claimed the right to use moral suasion. We didn't think we had any right to use any violence at all.

Q. Did you claim any right to interfere with railroad property?

A. No; it didn't belong to us.

Q. Prior to the organization of the Trainmen's Union, did you have any conversation with the officers of the railroad company in relation to this reduction of wages?

A. No; because we didn't think it would be advisable.

Q. Why not?

A. We thought it better to go ahead, and when we were in shape, if they refused we were ready to act.

Q. On the 27th day of June, you sent out forty men to notify all the lodges to get ready for a strike?

A. On Sunday, the 24th of June. Unless our demands were acceded to.

Q. Had you notified the railroad companies of your demand that the ten per cent. should be restored before that?

A. We drew up these resolutions—that is what Mr. Cassatt spoke about—and submitted them by a committee of five to the officials in Pittsburgh—to the local authorities there. They said they did not concern them, and they didn't want anything to do with them.

Q. When was that done?

A. I think on the 25th.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You mean the railroad authorities?

A. Yes. We then asked for passes to come to Philadelphia to see Tom Scott. They wouldn't give us passes, and the boys didn't think they had enough money, with the ten per cent. reduction, to come to Philadelphia. They thought they could quell us by discharging some of the ringleaders, and they discharged a couple hundred of the boys, and this committee were all discharged, and they got around among the men, and said that they did not want them to have anything to do with those men, and they closed the telegraph wires against us, and everything of that kind. So, on the morning of the 27th day of June, we sent a request for them to meet us in the hall.

Q. To whom did you send it?

A. To the local authorities—Lang, Barrett, Scott, Pitcairn. They didn't come. We found we could not get hold of the telegraph wires to work them. On the night of the 26th, on the last train that night they sent out men on the train—thoroughly loyal men, as they called them—men that belonged to the Union, and we thought all right. They carried the news west and east that there would be no strike in Pittsburgh, and we knew nothing of that, but found it out afterwards. On Wednesday, June 27, one of our men jumped over the traces, and brought the word he was going out, and he told us what instructions his conductor had received in regard to the strike. Mr. Barrett, the superintendent of the Pan Handle road, had told him with the other trains he had sent word that night to the men that there would be no strike in Pittsburgh on the 27th. They told all the men to stay at work, that the thing would be arranged later; but it never was arranged. All were under the impression that the bubble would burst sooner or later. When the railroad officials say they had no notice of it, and did not know anything about the strike, why we tried everything in the world to let them know.

Q. In what way?

A. Why they discharged three or four hundred of us, and they certainly discharged us for cause. I received a letter myself from Mr. Thaw stating that I had lost the situation on account of being a member of the Trainmen's Union. I was discharged somewhere near Sunday the 24th of June.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you discharged before you organized Trainmen's Union lodges on the Baltimore and Ohio railroad in Virginia?

A. I traveled all over the Baltimore and Ohio, and I came back to Pittsburgh—part of the way over the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern and the Cleveland and Pittsburgh. Mr. Thomas had been watching for me, and he stopped me. I had not been paying railroad fares, so I came into Pittsburgh on a freight train.

Q. Were you still an employé?

A. Yes; at that time.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Who was running in your place?

A. An extra man. I got back and reported for duty. I went west and thought I would lay off at Alliance and go out to Chicago, but while at the breakfast table, notice came that the superintendent of the road wanted to see me at his office, and I went over there and had a talk with him, and the consequence was that I was discharged.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. And he gave you that letter you spoke of at that time?

A. Yes; or a few days afterwards, I don't remember which. I don't remember whether it was at that time or a few days afterwards.

Q. Did you ask for the letter?

A. No; but a pass to Chicago. It is customary, when they discharge a man, to give him a pass to where he wants to go.

Q. How did he come to give you that letter?

A. I don't know. I guess he thought he could use me.

Q. Did you ask him for it?

A. No. I guess he thought he was doing me a favor, and that I would return him the favor, if he gave me the letter.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Have you a family?

A. Yes; a wife and two children.

Q. How long have you been married?

A. Four years the 13th day of last September.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Why did you select Pittsburgh for the strike?

A. The 19th of July?

Q. Yes?

A. I don't know. The strike did not originate there. It was not our idea at all. Our idea was to have it all over on the 27th day of June—all over the country—to just stop the traffic all over the country. We thought the public would look at it as we did, unless they could get enough pumpkin rollers and snake hunters to run their roads.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Was that the day the strike took place at Martinsburg?

A. No; It took place there on the 16th of July.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. In making arrangements for this strike, did you talk about Pittsburgh being a suitable place, or a better place, for a strike, on account of the sympathy of the local authorities?

A. No.

By Mr. Means:

Q. How long were you railroading?

A. Between nine and eleven months—about nine months altogether.

Q. Didn't you think you were managing that western road pretty successfully, with the experience you had?

A. I didn't claim credit for it. If I had not had the men I had, I could not have done it.

Q. But were you not the man who run it? You laid out your plans the same as a military officer, and your men carried them out?

A. After Mr. Lang put the road in my possession, I tried to do the best I could for it—for the stockholders.

Q. Did you have the interests of the stockholders at heart? Did you take into consideration their interests more than the interests of the employés of the road—the men you represented?

A. I thought the stockholders were in about the same pew with us. I thought they were about swamped, and that we were.

Q. But I mean the question?

A. I was looking at the stockholders interests when I turned over all the money, and I wanted the boys to get back their ten per cent. I don't know that I made any distinction between them.

Q. But answer my question?

A. I think my sympathies did lean a little towards the boys, because I was one of them myself.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you act as general superintendent of the Fort Wayne and Chicago Railroad, while you were in charge of it?

A. I was supposed to be.

Q. Who acted as dispatcher?

A. A particular friend of mine. I saw that all trains went off, and came in.

Q. Had you a dispatcher acting in that capacity?

A. I had three telegraph operators, but I acted in the capacity of dispatcher myself. I gave the orders.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. While running that railroad as general manager, what would you have done if your men had struck?

A. I would have increased their wages.

Adjourned to Monday morning, at ten o'clock.

Philadelphia, Monday, March 25, 1878.

Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled at ten o'clock, A.M., this day, in the St. Cloud hotel, and continued the taking of testimony.

R. Dale Benson, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where is your residence?

A. No. 260 South Fifteenth street.

Q. Were you a member of the National Guards in July last?

A. I was colonel of the First regiment of infantry.

Q. And you accompanied General Brinton's division to Pittsburgh?

A. Yes; I left with them from Philadelphia.

Q. Did you go with them to Twenty-eighth street, on Saturday?

A. Yes; my position was the right of the First brigade—the right of the division. I have heard General Mathews' and Colonel Snowden's testimony in regard to the details, and my testimony is pretty much the same.

Q. Their testimony in that respect was correct?

A. Yes; the only difference I would notice is in regard to what they testify in regard to my right. My right was impeded by a crowd of citizens at Twenty-eighth street. The column was halted on account of moving the Gatling guns, and I went ahead and told the crowd to leave my front, and some citizen came back to me agitated and excited, and said it was the sheriff's posse. I told him that it didn't make any difference what it was, that they must leave my front. He asked me whether my men would do their duty, and I told him it was not his business, and I ordered them to disperse. Two or three others came back and said they were ordered to march there, and I declined to allow them to march in my front. General Mathews was in the rear, attending to the Gatling guns, and I turned the party over to him, who turned out to be the sheriff of Allegheny county. General Mathews afterwards came and said they were instructed to march there, and so they were permitted.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Was it the sheriff himself that you stopped?

A. I was so informed afterwards.

Q. You knew it was the sheriff afterwards?

A. Yes; I didn't know him, and don't now. I never met him after that.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. State whether there was any order given to fire at Twenty-eighth street?

A. I never received any order, and gave no order to fire, nor do I believe any order was given to fire. The firing at Twenty-eighth street commended by the men in the rear rank of the Weccacoe Legion. The company had been brought to a charge bayonets when the crowd seized this man's musket. I saw them take hold of it. He drew back and fired. The firing extended then towards the right—towards the Washington Grays.

Q. Did he draw his musket away?

A. He stepped back about a pace, and fired.

Q. Did he fire at the man?

A. I cannot tell, but he fired into the crowd. The firing then extended to the right. My regiment was crowded into—the crowd overlapping my right, which I suppose was the cause of the troops being ordered from my right to push the crowd back. The firing was desultory file firing, and I think that the responsibility for it rests with the authorities who put the troops into that perilous position.

Q. Had there been firing by the crowd before that?

A. Yes; there had been shots from the hill, and stone firing and firing also took place from Twenty-eighth street and from under the cars on my front.

Q. What time did this occur—this firing?

A. I should judge about three and a half or four o'clock. I didn't refer to my watch. Its only a calculation of mine—a guess at it.

Q. Did that disperse the crowd?

A. Entirely—from our immediate front and from the hill.

Q. Where did you remain after the firing?

A. In the same position.

Q. Until what time?

A. Until towards seven o'clock—six and a half or seven o'clock—I didn't refer to my watch during the afternoon.

Q. Then you retired into the round-house?

A. Yes.

Q. State what the condition of the round-house was when you left it in the morning?

A. I considered it wholly untenable. During the morning, General Brinton came to me, and we were talking over some matter, and I called his attention to the fact that we would have to leave the building very soon. From the windows we could see that the machine shops adjoining were on fire. At the time the fire was very close, and cars were burning on Liberty street. I told him that the building could not be saved, and some hour or two after that the building was entirely on fire adjoining us, and the smoke was so dense we could not breathe. Shortly after that we were moved out.

Q. Did the troops move out in good order?

A. In perfect order.

Q. In what direction did you retire?

A. Out Twenty-fifth street to Penn avenue, and down Penn avenue.

Q. Did your troops keep good order during the entire retreat out Penn avenue?

A. Pretty much so, until we got to the arsenal. There was some confusion there.

Q. What caused it?

A. I judge—I was on the extreme right—I suppose it was the firing in the rear. My position on the extreme right prevented me from seeing what took place; but I have no question that the troops were fired into, though I could not see it myself.

Q. Did you see any firing along the route from the round-house?

A. I didn't, though I heard shots.

Q. You heard shots?

A. Yes.

Q. State what the conduct of the men was in the round-house during the night?

A. My observation was almost entirely confined to my own corps. I never left my regiment, except to visit the detachments on duty, and so far as my regiment was concerned they were entirely under my control. The troops in the other buildings I didn't see.

Q. Was there any demoralization discoverable?

A. None that I saw. I never saw men more patient or under better discipline.

Q. How long did you halt at the arsenal?

A. I judge a very few moments. Probably five minutes.

Q. Did you know or see where General Brinton went?

A. I didn't.

Q. Did any of your men leave you at the arsenal?

A. Yes.

Q. How many?

A. I think five or six—an officer and five or six men.

Q. Where did they join you?

A. Some at Blairsville Intersection and some at Pittsburgh.

Q. How long afterwards?

A. Two or three men joined us in two or three days, and the officer in six or seven days. One of the men never reported at all. He was court-martialed—and the officer, too—all the men that left.

Q. A regimental court-martial?

A. No; it was ordered by brigade head-quarters.

Q. Was the officer discharged from the service?

A. He was not discharged.

Q. What was done by the court-martial?

A. The verdict was absent without leave, without criminal intent.

Q. That was the officer?

A. Yes.

Q. What was his rank?

A. Major and surgeon.

Q. If you know the reasons that induced that verdict you may state them?

A. My opinion is pretty much hearsay. I was not a member of the court. The proceedings were reviewed by General Brinton, and he can give you better the facts that led to the verdict. His order didn't approve of the action of the court.

Q. It didn't?

A. No.

Q. Were the men discharged?

A. The result of the court-martial has not been promulgated as yet.

Q. Had you any men that refused to report for duty when you first got the call to proceed to Pittsburgh?

A. I don't think there was any instance of that kind. My regiment had on duty four hundred and sixty-four men out of a roll of about five hundred and sixty, and some of these men who were absent had made efforts to report, but were unable on account of lack of transportation, or on account of being sent back after they started.

Q. Did any of your men who were not able to join you the night you left undertake to come to you at Pittsburgh afterwards?

A. Quite a number. One detachment reach Altoona and went back.

Q. Which regiment?

A. I refer to the detachment of my own regiment.

Q. Do you know why they went back?

A. My information is—I demanded a statement from the lieutenant—that General Beaver allowed the troops to do as they pleased at Altoona—to remain or to return.

Q. Was that detachment the one that marched on foot part of the way, and was escorted over the bridge at Harrisburg?

A. No.

Q. Did they get back to Philadelphia?

A. Yes; they made a march and detour near Harrisburg, but they got to Philadelphia. They were on the same train with the First City Troops.

Q. Was there any court-martial of those troops?

A. No; they reported to the regiment afterwards.

Q. What was done about them?

A. The case was scrutinized by me. It didn't go up any higher than myself, because I thought that the officer was justified under the circumstances. He merely followed the direction that most of the other troops took.

Q. Could he have gone on to Pittsburgh at that time?

A. I judge not—for want of transportation.

Q. How many days was it before the road was opened so that the detachment could have gone to Pittsburgh?

A. I cannot give the exact day. I think the road was opened about the 27th or 28th.

Q. What day was it they returned from Altoona?

A. They reported at Blairsville intersection—that detachment with others.

Q. When did they report to you at Blairsville?

A. I judge it was about the 26th, probably.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Do you think the troops could have remained any longer in the round-house than they did?

A. No; and I didn't see what the necessity was for their remaining there anyhow.

Q. What was the condition of your command, in regard to rest and want of food?

A. The men were very much exhausted. They had been taken away during the night from their homes, and, of course, had very little sleep, and little or nothing to eat, and, of course, they were very much exhausted. Still, as they demonstrated on their march, they could do their duty. I would like to state to the committee, that at no time, from the hour when my regiment left Philadelphia until it returned, was there any moment, in my estimation, when the men were not prepared for any duty, that they were called on to do.

Q. You had some army experience?

A. I served about three years and six months in the army.

Q. Your troops were as ready to do service as those in the United States army?

A. I never saw any difference.

Walter G. Wilson, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. State your residence, and what position you held in the National Guard in July last?

A. I live at No. 2323 Green street, Philadelphia, and I was major and acting assistant adjutant general with General Brinton, during the July riots.

Q. Did you hear the testimony of Generals Brinton and Mathews?

A. Yes.

Q. In the details as to what occurred at Twenty-eighth street. State whether their testimony was substantially correct?

A. Their testimony was entirely correct, so far as my knowledge went. I was on the ground constantly with General Brinton, during that afternoon, and reported to General Pearson, of my arrival with him. General Pearson was then at the Union depot. The formation of the column and line of march was stated by both Generals Brinton and Mathews, and is substantially correct.

Q. State whether at Twenty-eighth street you heard any command given to fire?

A. I did not.

Q. By any officer?

A. I did not.

Q. State what the action of the crowd was there, prior to the firing by the troops?

A. The action of the crowd was such as to induce me to believe that a conflict was inevitable. I was satisfied they had made up their minds to have a row. There was jeering and insults in every direction, but the men bore it all patiently. I heard General Brinton, on leaving the Union depot, state, if I am not mistaken, to General Mathews and General Loud, that he wanted them to endure, and pay no attention to anything the mob might say or do, even if they spat in their faces—simply, if they were attacked, to defend themselves. At Twenty-eighth street it was absolutely impossible to move on account of the crowd. The Gatling guns were brought in between the ranks, and, when the crowd were pushing in and surging in at the end, the Washington Grays were formed across, but were found insufficient to keep the crowd back. General Brinton then sent me with instructions to bring up other men, as the mob were pressing in between the ranks of the First regiment, which I did. I heard no order given to fire, and saw distinctly, not only pistol shots, but stones and missiles of various kinds thrown from all directions. I saw, after the firing—in fact, it seemed to me that the firing had hardly commenced before the crowd scattered in every direction. I saw, immediately, Generals Brinton and Mathews and Colonel Benson, if I am not mistaken, give the command to cease firing, and go up and down the line endeavoring to stop the men. The crowd had dispersed in every direction.

Q. How long did you remain in that position before you moved into the round-house?

A. I should judge it was about two hours, probably three hours. The firing had hardly ceased, when General Brinton got a note from General Pearson, to which he sent me to reply in person. Upon reporting to him the state of affairs at Twenty-eighth street, he directed me to return, and inform General Brinton that he would like to see him personally. I did so, and accompanied General Brinton back to the outer office, where General Pearson was.

Q. Where was he?

A. In the second story in the office at Twenty-sixth or Twenty-seventh street, at the outer depot.

Q. How was he dressed?

A. He had on a fatigue uniform and cap, and sack coat or blouse—an officer's blouse—and dark pants, and, if I am not mistaken, a white vest. He had on shoulder straps, and the mark of his rank on the cap.

Q. Did he have on a belt?

A. No; I think not.

Q. State what the conduct of the troops was during the night in the round-house?

A. The conduct of the troops was unexceptionable. I was up and around during the entire night, from one part of the building to the other, and I saw no instance where the men refused to obey any order given to them, although they were, of course, rather exhausted, and rather hungry; yet, at the same time, any command that was given was obeyed at once, cheerfully and willingly. The slight disturbance that General Brinton spoke of in his testimony was so slight that I never knew anything about it until long afterwards, and I suppose I had probably as much opportunity to know what was going on as anybody.

Q. State whether you had notice of the orders received by General Brinton from General Latta or from General Pearson?

A. Yes, sir; I had.

Q. Of all the orders?

A. Yes.

Q. State whether General Brinton received any orders from General Latta before leaving the round-house?

A. He received two dispatches during the night from General Latta.

Q. State what they were?

A. The first one was complimenting him very highly.

Q. Were they telegraphic dispatches?

A. No; they came by the hand of a scout whom General Brinton sent to communicate with General Latta.

Q. Named Wilson?

A. Yes—of the Jefferson Cavalry. The first were sent off with members of the Hutchinson Battery, and they never returned. Wilson brought back an answer regarding the situation in which we were placed, stating we understand the situation thoroughly, and an effort would be shortly made to provision the troops—that ammunition had been sent to Guthrie, and that the troops at Walls station would join Guthrie, and that Guthrie would be on the way, and certainly ought to be with us by six or seven o'clock, and stating also that there was no chance for friction primers. The second dispatch—Sergeant Wilson went out again and returned about two o'clock—maybe three o'clock—and brought another dispatch from General Latta complimenting the division very highly upon their conduct, and stating that the ammunition had reached Colonel Guthrie, and that he would be on his way shortly, and certainly would reach the round-house not later than five or six o'clock, and to hold on vigorously, or if compelled to leave, that we should do so by way of Penn avenue or eastward, and take Penn avenue.

Q. What time was that dispatch received?

A. I should judge in the neighborhood of two or three o'clock.

Q. Did General Brinton stay as long as he could in the round-house?

A. He stayed as long as he possibly could stay—as long as it was possible to stay. I think it was ten minutes of eight o'clock when the order was given for the troops to fall in for the purpose of leaving. At that time the roof of the round-house was on fire, and the building was full of smoke, and the only part that was not on fire was the office building of the upholstery shop, through which we went out. The piles of lumber in the direction of the Union depot—I don't know whether east or north from that—were all afire. Shortly before leaving, I went to the upholstery shops, and could see nothing but a mass of flames to the Union depot.

Q. Were any guards thrown out to guard the approaches to the round-house during the night?

A. Yes; as far as it was prudent or possible to throw them.

Q. Were any attacks made on the guards during the night by the mob?

A. There was no attack. It was a desultory kind of firing during the entire night from every direction. Men would conceal themselves behind piles of lumber, and in the windows of the houses, and behind chimneys, on roofs. The firing came from every direction.

Q. At what distance were guards placed from the round-house?

A. It was probably as far as from here to Eighth street—probably two hundred yards.

Q. Did they remain out all night that distance?

A. Yes.

Q. Were any of them wounded there?

A. No; it was on the track side, towards the Union depot. The building was not defensible at all from that side.

Q. From the side towards the depot no attack was made?

A. No.

Q. How far were the guards out on the side towards Philadelphia?

A. There were no guards there. A part of the Sixth division was supposed to be in the Twenty-eighth street round-house.

Q. You had no guards on the street leading to Penn street?

A. There was no occasion for them. Everything was in perfect view, as far as that was concerned, from the building itself.

Q. State in what kind of order the troops marched out?

A. The order was perfect.

Q. Was there any firing along the route?

A. There was considerable firing along the route.

Q. Were you present when General Brinton met Major Buffington at the arsenal?

A. I was present when he met a person, supposed to be the person commanding the arsenal.

Q. Where was he?

A. It was at his house inside the arsenal grounds.

Q. How far from the house?

A. Right on the steps—right on the porch.

Q. What took place between them?

A. Well, General Brinton introduced himself, and told him who he was, and requested substantially—that was he requested permission to bring the men inside, and, if possible, to get ammunition and provisions for them, or if not, to allow them to remain there until he could communicate with General Latta, and get some orders. Buffington immediately ordered him to leave the place as rapidly as possible, and leave no men inside. He did that in an abrupt manner, as much as to say, if you don't go out, I will throw you out.

Q. Had you been directed to Major Buffington's house by anybody?

A. My impression is that Captain Murphy took us there. It may have been that some person just at the door, or the sentry at the gate, may have said so.

Q. You accompanied General Brinton to the house?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you meet him before calling at the door or ringing the bell?

A. We met him right at the porch. I think there was a lady standing there, and the question was asked if Major Buffington was in, and at that moment he came out. I know that nobody went for him.

Q. You turned then and——

A. Went to the gate as rapidly as possible.

Q. Did Major Buffington come up to the gate before you left?

A. No.

Q. Did you see anything more of him?

A. I didn't. He turned on his heel and went into the house.

Q. Did you see anything of Lieutenant Lyon?

A. I don't know the lieutenant at all. I will state this much, I think there was some one in citizen's clothing, when the wounded were brought to the gate, who said allow them to come in, and I suppose from what I heard afterwards that it may have been Lieutenant Lyon.

Q. Describe the appearance of the man you met at the house, supposed to be Major Buffington?

A. I cannot do that.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was he in uniform?

A. No; in citizen's clothes. I don't know that I would know him if I saw him. It was all in a moment, and the excitement, as a matter of course, was great, and I paid no particular attention to the man's appearance.

Q. Do you remember whether he wore a mustache or not?

A. I think he had hair on his face; but whether a mustache or not I won't be certain. I think he had hair on his face.

Q. Some gentleman was there?

A. There was somebody who said he was Major Buffington.

Q. There was some person who permitted you to bring the wounded inside?

A. Yes; that was afterwards. After we were ordered out.

Q. State whether you were present when Colonel Norris overtook General Brinton?

A. I was.

Q. What orders did he give, if any?

A. None; he gave no orders.

Q. Did you hear anything or all of what took place between them?

A. I did. I heard the entire conversation.

Q. Do you know whether General Brinton received any orders after leaving the round-house or not during that day?

A. Not until late in the afternoon.

Q. What were they, and who communicated them?

A. Those orders came out by the hand of Major Baugh, who reported to General Brinton at Claremont, and was immediately sent back by orders from General Latta—I think it was him—but they were received late that afternoon, directing the general to bring the entire division to Altoona by rail.

Q. That was a written order?

A. Yes.

Q. Did a man by the name of Colonel Smith reach you during the day, Sunday?

A. Norman Smith?

Q. Yes.

A. He reached us on Sunday. I saw him—the first time I saw him to know him—he may have reached us an hour or so before—it was after the division had encamped on the hills overlooking Claremont. He was there, and stayed for some hours.

Q. Do you know what his mission was?

A. I don't know that it had anything to do with any military matters, and I think he said he had an appointment with somebody to go across the country. I didn't ask him who.

Q. Do you know whether General Brinton telegraphed to Colonel Scott of the Pennsylvania Railroad?

A. He sent a number of dispatches to Colonel Scott during the time we were out, in relation to various matters, for the purpose of urging the necessity of endeavoring to procure us ammunition, and provision, and blankets, and clothing, &c. And I know he also sent a note. I am under the impression it was in response to an inquiry as to the condition of the men, and he stated that, if he was allowed his own way, he could open the entire road from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh with the First division.

Q. When did he send that dispatch?

A. While we were at Blairsville Intersection.

Q. Do you know on what day?

A. I cannot state the day. We got there, I think, on the afternoon of the 23d, and it may have been the following morning. It was just in response to an inquiry as to the morale of the division.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Was there one or more sentinels at the gate when you reached the arsenal?

A. There was but one. There may have been one or two in the box; but one was patrolling the beat.

Q. Didn't the sergeant there point out to you and General Brinton the gate to Major Buffington's quarters?

A. No. There may have been somebody who pointed out the house, but nobody went for him.

Q. No one went on with you to the house?

A. No. He may have pointed it out to General Brinton, in response to a question. I don't recollect that he did or didn't.

Q. Did the major come out of the house there, and stand on the steps?

A. He came out of the house—out of the entry way—on to the steps.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did Major Buffington give any reason for refusing admission into the arsenal grounds?

A. I don't think he said anything, except that there was a large amount of property there, or something.

Q. Did he say it would be endangered by bringing on a conflict with the mob?

A. I think not. I have no recollection of it.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Did he tell General Brinton there was no small ammunition there?

A. I have no recollection of his saying anything of the kind. He may have told him that he could not get any; but I have no recollection of his saying there was none.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. How were your troops supplied with ammunition? Did you have sufficient?

A. No; not at that time. The next morning—Monday morning or afternoon—the ordinance return showed that the Third regiment had about three rounds to a man, and the First regiment, I think, an average of ten.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. How many did you have on Saturday afternoon when you went out to Twenty-eighth street?

A. We were supposed to have twenty rounds to a man. Ten were issued at Harrisburg, and ten at Pittsburgh.

Q. State whether General Brinton received orders from General Latta to go to Torrens station; and, if so, when he received them?

A. He received orders from General Latta to go to Torrens station on the night of the 3d of July.

Q. What kind of an order was it?

A. A written order, and sent, as I was afterwards informed, by the hands of Captain Aull, and delivered by him to Colonel Guthrie, and by Colonel Guthrie to the general, at the reception of the Duquesne club, the night before we left Pittsburgh.

Q. When was the order dated.

A. On the morning we left the round-house. It was a very congratulatory order, directing him to go to the stock-yards, and entrench himself there, and congratulating him on the movement of the morning, and stating he was glad to hear he was safe.

Q. What per centage of the men of the First division were soldiers of the late war? Do you know?

A. No; that is pretty hard matter to tell.

Q. From your acquaintance with them could you form an estimate?

A. I should judge probably fifty per cent. of them—taking the strength of the division right straight through—probably more than that.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You stated you heard no command given to the troops to fire.

A. No.

Q. Didn't you consider the men justifiable in firing?

A. Yes; I consider it would not have been half a minute before the command would have been given. It would have been necessary.

Q. Was there a consultation among the officers as to the position you should take after the firing took place?

A. The only consultation was between—or a conversation—it was hardly in the nature of a consultation—was between General Brinton and General Pearson. General Pearson sent to know of General Brinton—stating he had heard the firing—whether there were any killed or wounded, and requested him, if he desired to communicate, to send a staff officer. General Brinton sent me, and I immediately returned and reported that General Pearson desired to see him and went back with him.

Q. Where did you find General Pearson?

A. In the second story of the outer office.

Q. Mr. Pitcairn's?

A. I don't know. He was in the telegraph room. There was no consultation about it. It was an absolute order from General Pearson to move the troops in there.

E. DeC. Loud, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Please state your residence?

A. No. 3741 Spruce street.

Q. State whether you are a member of the National Guard now?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were in July last?

A. Yes.

Q. What was your rank?

A. Brigadier General, commanding the Second brigade.

Q. You accompanied General Brinton to Pittsburgh?

A. Yes.

Q. State whether you went out with his command to Twenty-eighth street?

A. I did not.

Q. On Saturday?

A. I did not. When we started from Pittsburgh, or rather from Union depot, a portion of my command was then ordered to guard the passenger trains that were going to be run out, and when we got about the center—from the western half to the center of the round-house—I was ordered to take that position, and to keep the tracks clear, and see that nobody came into my line excepting those that had authority—to keep out all citizens—that the trains were ready to be run, and that I should keep things clear, in that shape, until they could open the road at Twenty-eighth street. I held that position until the firing began at Twenty-eighth street; but, I think, perhaps a little before that I sent an aid to General Brinton and asked him, if possible, to return to me the troops that had been detached, as the ground I had to cover was too large to be covered by the troops I had. He sent them back. Shortly after that, I saw the firing at Twenty-eighth street. It was about a square and a half, and I could see the firing. I had stationed a line across east to keep the crowd back from that side, and when the rioters broke around from the rear of the First brigade, and came back, I ordered the line doubled, and turned the crowd through the yard out on to Liberty street, instead of letting them come on the tracks. So far, as I saw, the trains were all ready, with nobody interfering with them, and if they had had men to run them—engineers and firemen—I think they could have run those trains out after Twenty-eighth street was cleared.

Q. Were the engines fired up?

A. I think so.

Q. Were there engineers with them?

A. There seemed to be men about the engines that seemed to have authority. They seemed to be train hands—engineers.

Q. And brakemen?

A. They seemed to be. The most trouble I had was with young men that claimed to be clerks in the railroad office, who broke through the lines. While I was there, two or three passenger trains were run in from the west, coming in off the Pan Handle and Fort Wayne road, going east. They were some little while getting along; but they went on east. There was some trouble with the passengers on them, because they wanted to see what was going on. I held that position until some time after the firing at Twenty-eighth street, when I got orders from General Brinton, through Major Pettit, to move into the railroad shops connecting with the round-house. I knew the ground, as I had been there several times before, and I supposed we were going through this yard out to Liberty street, and going back to Pittsburgh; but when I got inside, General Brinton ordered me to take possession of the shops there on the left or on the west, and put one regiment in there and some other troops in the office, and put a guard over the gate. There was a double wagon gate there. I had no time to detail a regular guard, so I instructed Captain Ryan, of the Fencibles, to take charge of the gate. In the meantime, Breck's Battery came in, and the First brigade went into the round-house and took possession of that. In about ten minutes, a train was going to run back on the Allegheny Valley road, which runs besides this railroad office or repair shop. When the cars came back—it was some local train—they were just filled with rioters, who were brought back right into Pittsburgh, and they were yelling and hooting and hallooing, and then this crowd gathered around the gate. We had no orders to fire on them at all, and we paid no attention to what was said by the mob. Along about dark, I was talking to General Brinton, when a man pushed himself in, and we ordered him out, and eventually pushed him out. Then a row began, and a couple of pistol shots were fired, and two men were shot, and Captain Ryan came to me and said that my men cannot stand this to be fired at, and without returning the fire. I told him I could not give an order to fire; but that I would ask General Brinton; but he said he could not give an order, that he was under the orders of General Pearson, and that we must first ask General Pearson if we couldn't open fire on the rioters. We run the Gatling guns, in the meantime, so as to command the gate. General Pearson said no, you must not fire a shot, and of course, when he said no, we had nothing else to do. He left about nine o'clock, and when he left General Brinton gave orders if anybody came near the gate to order them away, and if they didn't go, to fire on them. We remained there until they began to run the cars down on us. At first we supposed they ran the cars down to shoot this field-piece off—we supposed that was their idea—but we soon found it was on fire. The general then ordered me to take a detail of men up into the third story of this office, which had windows facing east, and we went up there, and put guards in the second and third stories, and in that way covered the field-piece. We stayed around there until daylight. During the night I think I saw pretty near every dispatch that General Brinton got, and I don't think I was away from him ten minutes at any one time during the night. I saw every dispatch, and was cognizant of their contents. I passed the scout in and out through my lines—this man that carried the dispatches to General Latta—and I know the instructions from General Latta were to hold the position as long as we could, and I know of the dispatch to move east out Penn avenue. When the eastern buildings had got afire, they came and told me that it was necessary to vacate, that the fire had got so hot that they couldn't stand it, and when the First regiment formed, we could hardly see the lines for the smoke and cinders. There had been some cars filled with corn whiskey that had run down and got afire. We got the fire out; but they had blocked the gate so that we couldn't get the field-pieces out. The general then instructed me to have the brass guns spiked, to have them dismounted, and to destroy the powder. The powder was taken into the round-house and soaked in water, so that it couldn't be used, and the ammunition was thrown away, and the pieces were spiked. The Gatlings being much lighter, we found an entrance on the west of this repair-shop, and we moved the Gatlings through the repair-shop out to Twenty-sixth street. When we marched out I was at the head of my brigade. We must have got a half a mile or so, and there was some firing into the lines, and one or two men were wounded. I then went back, and you couldn't see any great number of rioters anywheres near us. I suppose within one or two Philadelphia blocks you could not see anybody; but you could see the crowd back that far. Every now and then there would be a shot coming from a doorway or a window as we passed along the street. Nobody would fire directly at us from a window as we passed along—either from the corners of the streets or the windows; but the firing was all after we passed, after we got by half a block or a block—then they would let into us. About this time a street car was coming up the street, and I don't know why, but I was looking at it, wondering whether it was going to try to get through the lines, when the first thing I heard was two rifle shots from the car, and two men of the Sixth regiment fell dead, one on top of the other. The shots were fired by two men apparently lying on their stomachs—lying on the cushions, and firing out the windows.

Q. Did the street car stop after they fired?

A. That I cannot say. I recollect, at that time, that the Gatling gun was opened, and I ordered my men to separate, so that they could fire into it, and they did fire. Just before that the driver of the street car had uncoupled the horses, and left the car standing. I have heard since that those two men were killed; but, of course, I cannot testify to that.

Q. Those two men in the car?

A. Yes; along about that time this man they called the bad angel—he would fire and then run into a house, and run back through the yard, and come out again and fire. He would fire coolly. I saw him twice drop on his knee and fire, just the same as if he were firing at a target. I heard Captain Ryan hallooing "shoot that man," and they fired at him, but, as he was firing out of door-ways or from behind trees, it was almost impossible to hit him. We were moving all the time. I cannot say positively whether Lieutenant Ash was shot previously to that time or not, but I recollect seeing him stagger. I suppose I noticed it more particularly because he was a personal friend of mine. I saw him stagger and fall into the gutter on the north side of the street, and throw up his hand and say, you are not going to leave me, and I ran back with three or four men, and carried him ahead apiece, until some men of the regiment ran their pieces under him, and brought him on, and he was carried on the limber of the Gatling up to the arsenal. By that time I concluded my brigade had enough of that, and I sent word to General Brinton, asking him if I could not change places with the First brigade, and he sent word back, yes, and I changed places at the turn of the street. The reason why I asked to be relieved was, that every man in the brigade had been on duty all night—every man. We had the lumber-yard to cover, and the railroad offices, and the repair shop, and the men had been up all night. I took the right of the line then, and I don't think that there was a shot fired after we changed position in the line.

Q. Where was Lieutenant Ash wounded?

A. In the leg. He bled very freely. I didn't suppose that he was mortally wounded, and I think if there had been anybody there to take care of him, he might have got through.

Q. He was left at the arsenal?

A. Yes; that is about the story, until we got to Sharpsburg. We had nothing to eat all the way along. When we got to Sharpsburg, along about ten and a half o'clock, Major Wilson then, Colonel Wilson now, went into a store and bought a couple of boxes of crackers. I recollect it, because he gave one to my brigade, and one to the First brigade. That was all we got until about twelve o'clock.

Q. While you were down at the round-house, guarding the trains that were to move out, was there any attack made upon your line by the rioters?

A. No.

Q. Was there any firing by your men?

A. No; there is not a shot fired—they were rather troublesome. There was a considerable crowd there, but Captain Ryan kept them back. I might say that my orders were to keep all citizens off. I met a gentleman coming through, and told him to get out, and had some considerable difficulty. He said he was the sheriff of Allegheny county. That was away back at Twenty-sixth street. He was all alone—no posse with him or anything.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You say no posse was with him?

A. No; and he didn't seem to want a posse.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. That was after the firing at Twenty-eighth street?

A. I think it was right after the firing.

Q. The sheriff was going towards the depot then?

A. Yes; and making pretty good time.

Q. State whether there was any insubordination on the part of the troops during the night in the round-house?

A. I heard that some of the troops were dissatisfied—that they wanted something to eat, and didn't think they were treated right, and all that. I didn't see anything of it, and I was among them all night long.

Q. Was there any refusal to obey orders?

A. No; no man refused. There was, perhaps, a little hesitation when I asked some men to do a little piece of business, but they went and did it.

Q. What was that?

A. I wanted some car wheels put across the track. It was a rather open space, and they didn't seem to like it much, but they went and did it.

Q. Have you anything else to say?

A. I might say that I saw the scout going out all night long, carrying messages back and forward.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you consider the firing by the troops justifiable?

A. I can only say that if I had had command I would have fired sooner than they did.

Q. You would have given the order?

A. Yes; I gave the order to fire going out Pennsylvania avenue. I always considered when attacked you have the right to return the fire.

Q. You have had some experience in the army?

A. Some little.

Q. How much?

A. Four years.

Q. And you think that most any troops would have fired under such circumstances without orders?

A. I have my own opinion, and I think if I had been in the lines, I would have fired.

Q. If struck with a brick, you would have fired?

A. I think so. I will say simply this: I think if the troops had been sent to Pittsburgh three days sooner, it would have been a great deal better. They had been playing with the Pittsburgh troops before we got there.

Q. Did you see Colonel Norris when he joined General Brinton's command?

A. I did.

Q. Did Colonel Norris give General Brinton any orders?

A. No.

Q. Did you hear the conversation between them?

A. I did.

Q. If he had communicated any orders to General Brinton, you would have heard them?

A. I certainly should. I might say that I was standing with General Brinton, when Colonel Norris drove up. He jumped out of the carriage, and he seemed very glad, indeed, to see General Brinton and all hands, and we went over and sat along side of the road, and I heard all the conversation. I would have been very apt, if any orders had been given, to pay some attention, because I was anxious about the situation myself, and particularly as I was personally acquainted with Colonel Norris.

Q. You are certain he gave no orders to go to any point from where he was then?

A. Not that I know of; and I think if such orders were given, I would have heard them.

Q. Were you present during the entire conversation?

A. Yes.

Q. All the time?

A. I think so.

Q. Do you know of any orders having been received by General Brinton from any one or by the hands of any one to make any movement in any direction?

A. Yes; we had one about going out of Pittsburgh, to go east.

Q. After you left the round-house?

A. No; I saw the orders that night. I heard or read all the orders that came. The orders were, as I understood, to take a train down at the work-house, and join the command at Blairsville Intersection. I know we got an order after we were in the round-house, or rather an instruction that Colonel Lyle—we supposed that colonel, and the detachment under Colonel Rodgers, were with Colonel Guthrie, and would join us about daybreak.

Q. Did General Brinton receive any orders to move his command to Torrens station?

A. Not that I am aware of.

Q. Or to join Colonel Guthrie?

A. Not that I am aware of.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. The brass guns at the round-house—whose command did they belong to?

A. To General Pearson's.

Q. Couldn't you have saved those guns, and taken them with you?

A. If we had any way of getting them out, and if we had horses to haul them.

Q. It was not possible to take them out where they were, and take them along by hand?

A. It might have been done, but under the circumstances, no. If there had not been any firing there, we might have cleared the track, and got the gate open.

Q. Couldn't you have taken those guns out of the same gate you took the Gatling guns out?

A. No; it would have taken a long while, because the shop was full of timber and all kinds of material, which would have had to be cleared out of the way, and it is not much of a joke to run a twelve pounder by hand. We might have taken a crowd and have dragged them a short distance, but not a long distance. It was as much as the men could do to drag the Gatlings.

Q. No horses were provided for those guns?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Did Captain Breck have charge of those pieces?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he turn them over to General Brinton?

A. Of course, he was under General Brinton's command.

Q. Do you know whether Captain Breck's command retired to the round-house with your command?

A. I don't know, but I suppose they did. I cannot say positively.

Q. Did many of your men—the rank and file—have experience in the army as soldiers?

A. Yes.

Q. About what proportion of them?

A. I suppose thirty-three per cent. of them, anyhow. I should judge so.

Q. What character of men were the balance of the troops composed of generally?

A. I would just as lief depend on them, I think, as regular soldiers.

Q. You would depend on them just as soon?

A. Or a little sooner, I think.

Q. In what business were those men before they went out with you, as a general thing?

A. Most of them were mechanics.

Q. And some clerks?

A. Some.

Q. Professional men?

A. Very few.

Q. Men accustomed to manual labor?