REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE Railroad Riots IN JULY, 1877. (continued 14)

Q. Before you come to that—did I understand you to say that you had no knowledge of what orders those companies had that were detailed, and sent down to the crossing of the railroad?

A. They were detailed away from my command, and I had no knowledge of what was to be done.

Q. Who did they report to?

A. They reported to General Brown. I know what duty they were performing there—could see it all. I might just say here that I had great apprehensions of the whole matter. They were not the impressions I had since. Those were what I had then. I want to say this: that I gave orders distinctly and positively that my men should not be allowed to talk with, or in any way have any conversation with, the strikers, and I say, also, that that order was positive. Of course, men sometimes were away; it was a pretty hot day, and they had to go for water, and occasionally, perhaps, they talked; but I do not think my orders were violated at all in any respect. I stayed with my men all day long watching their behavior, and at this time I received an order to get my men ready to go on a train. I felt pleased at this, for I thought those who were at the head of affairs understood the situation. I had my doubts before that whether they did. Though we did not go on the train, we were there, ready to go on after the firing was over.

Q. Give us the circumstances of the affair; how it occurred—you were present there at the time, were you not?—as briefly as you can?

A. I would say, first, that the Philadelphia troops came out in as grand style as ever men went to any duty, and their position was good. There can be no exceptions taken to the position. They moved up the tracks. My recollection of the matter is that there was one company in advance of the First regiment. I did not know it was the First regiment at that time. I know that from the report. They moved, and they were formed in line and marched to the left to the round-house, cleared the tracks, and then the rear rank was about faced, and cleared the track, leaving an open space. Two other companies were brought up, and a Gatling gun brought up to that space, and the company in advance marched right into the crowd. They were as determined men as ever stood before anybody. I looked very earnestly, and with a good deal of solicitation, when the stones were thrown and pistol shots fired. I could not see whether there was many or not. There was a great deal of confusion, and the firing began and was kept up—a continuous firing.

Q. You say that pistol shots were fired from the mob?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And stones thrown from the mob and other missiles?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there any firing from the troops before that?

A. There was not a shot fired until after they were attacked. The first thing I saw—I knew it was coming. I was not disappointed a particle in regard to the whole matter—the company charge bayonets on the crowd, and the first thing I saw was a man in the mob take hold of a gun, and one man wrenched the gun away from him, and struck him with the bayonet with a good deal of force.

Q. That is, one of the soldiers?

A. Yes; and then the pistol shots were fired. It was all done in a moment, and then the fire began by the soldiers.

Q. Was there any command given to fire?

A. It was too far away for hearing the command; but I may say it was effectually done, and if that was so, it was only a pity the command had not been given.

Q. Was it a volley or was it a scattering fire?

A. It was a scattering fire, but it extended all along the line. We were immediately in front of the rear rank that faced to the rear, and received a good share of the fire.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Was there a rush made by the mob towards the troops before the firing began?

A. The thing had been gathering momentum from ten o'clock. It was not a mob—the mob in front—that I was afraid of at all. It was the feeling that existed there, apparently strong outside, and when the mills closed that afternoon, it seemed to me they just came up there in hundreds.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Rolling mills, iron mills, and so forth?

A. Yes, sir; the crowd accumulated rapidly. They were going and coming all the time, and they were there in force.

Q. The mill hands are generally at leisure on Saturday afternoon?

A. I think they came right out of the mills, when they closed down. A great many, perhaps, came there out of curiosity, but there was a great many added to the mob down on Twenty-eighth street. The crowd increased rapidly at that time.

Q. From what you saw, would you consider an order to fire justifiable?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What took place after that?

A. The crowd ran away. Those that were on the hill side came up and devoted themselves to the carrying away of the wounded for a time. The Philadelphia troops moved up and took their position by the crossing, at Twenty-eighth street, and placed their Gatling gun in position there, and I ordered my companies, Captain Glenn and Captain Nesbitt, up in line of battalion. The crowd down the road, that had been there, collected again. However, they did not make any attempt to force themselves on to the railroad. The Philadelphia troops would strike terror into the crowd and they would run away for a time, and then would find there was no danger, and then they would come back.

Q. When did you go after that?

A. Five or six o'clock, after quiet had been restored, and the wounded had all been carried away, I received an order from General Pearson, to assist Colonel Howard, in moving Breck's guns to the round-house, and then go to the transfer office, and hold it against any attack. I sent that order—it was a written order—with my adjutant, to General Brown, who was with Colonel Howard, on my right and front, and reported to him that I was ready to move, in obedience to the order. However, I want to say, that was very reluctantly done.

Q. What was reluctantly done?

A. That movement by me. That was done, because their officers and their commands were there. Captain Breck came to me at that time, and said he had such an order, and asked me if I would not see General Pearson, and protest against the matter. I said to him that there were my men immediately in my line, and he commenced to explain the situation that he could be in, and I said to him, "Captain, I won't allow any discussion of that kind here." I told him to step to one side, and this order reached me, just at that time, and after I read the order, I found Captain Breck was waiting and I went to him. He asked me if I had concluded to do anything in the matter, and I said to him, we will obey the order. I felt then it was a great mistake.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. For what reason?

A. I did not think we had any business down on Twenty-eighth street.

Q. You went down to obey the order?

A. We obeyed the order. However, just immediately at that time the Philadelphia troops began moving into the round-house, commencing on the left, and moving in all the way up, and Captain Breck took this battery, and then went away, and left me on the hill. When I moved up they were all in the round-house, and the mob was pressing down this track. I moved down the hill. Had to go down by a flank movement. I anticipated trouble then, because I knew by their actions—they hooted and jeered and taunted the soldiers—the Philadelphians—as they went away. I anticipated trouble. However, we marched down by the gate-way, and marched through the crowd, and to the transfer station. Upon my arrival at the transfer station, I took a view of the station myself. Colonel Howard came and asked me in regard to the matter. Colonel Howard asked me if I would take command of the station. I told him General Brown was here, and he was in authority. I told him that I would throw out pickets on my front. The transfer station was separated by tracks in between. Colonel Howard was on the side next to the hill, and I was on Liberty street, and I told him I would take care of my side; that he could dispose of his own troops. We remained there, and the most of them went and laid down to sleep. It was dark, and most of my men, except those on duty, went to sleep. During the night General Brown came to me, and said that the place was untenable, and he advised me to get out of it. We commenced to consult about the matter, and I told him there was no trouble there, that it was a good place to rest, and that if we got into any trouble we could get out of it. A short time afterwards he and Colonel Howard came back, and I had the situation in my own mind, and had sent my officers out on the hill side, and at that very time I had sent Doctor McCandless, surgeon on my staff. He was well acquainted with the hill side in that part of town. I sent him up there to look at the situation—it is a very ragged hill—to see in case there was a necessity to pick out the best way, of a return by the way of the hill side to my old position on the hill side. When General Brown and Colonel Howard came to me, I told them what I had done, that I expected that our position was such we could not do any fighting, but we could from the hill side, and I had sent officers out to select a way by which we could get out, if necessary. There was no immediate danger. About ten o'clock General Brown came to me again, and said we must get out. He had information that we must leave that place. Says I, "General Brown, you cannot persuade me to leave this, I will obey your orders, but I do not see any necessity for leaving this position at this time." He immediately ordered me to take my command, and go to the Union depot. I formed my command, and we started, but the road was full of cars, and we had to go out the best way we could. We got out into the open track below, and when I got out there, I halted the advance of the regiment, re-formed and marched into the Union depot in good order.

Q. Will you please tell me about how far it is from the transfer station to the round-house, where the Philadelphia troops were?

A. From the transfer station?

Q. From where you were stationed?

A. I have very little knowledge as to the location of that transfer depot. I never passed through there, except going east on the train at night, but I do not think it is very far, probably two hundred yards.

Q. That is where you were stationed, about two hundred yards from the round-house?

A. I should think so. That is my idea of the distance there. When I arrived at the Union depot, I was pretty disgusted with the thing—had been all day, for that matter. After I re-formed my men, I had expected to get some rations. I knew my commissary was there getting some, and I sent an officer to inquire and find out. General Brown, I went to him, and asked him for orders, and to my utter astonishment he told me I could dismiss my command.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you obey him?

A. Not then. I called around my officers—those that were nearest to me—surrounded the general, and protested in the strongest terms that I was allowed to, in regard to the matter, that it was a disgrace to the officers and men that I had there willing to do their duty; that it was a disgrace also to desert the Philadelphia troops. The general was a little startled at my talk, and he says, "You remain here a few minutes, and I will see you again." He left me, and I did not see him again.

By Mr. Means:

Q. I would like to know where and when your regiment was disbanded?

A. When and where it was disbanded. It was disbanded a few minutes before eleven o'clock at the Union Depot hotel, by myself, in obedience to General Brown's order. And I want to say this in regard to that matter: After I remained there awhile, I went up to the office of the Union Depot hotel, and inquired for General Pearson, and they told me that the general was not there. I inquired for General Latta, and they told me he was not there. I wondered where he could have gone to, and I saw Mr. Murdock, who is one of the officers, and he made the same reply; and I had great confidence in him.

Q. Your head-quarters is here at the market-house, isn't it?

A. I had my head-quarters at my office. That is, our armory.

Q. Your regiment was not brought there, then, as a regiment, and disbanded?

A. Not that night. No, sir; because I had four companies who had to go home by railroad.

Q. Were any of the companies brought down here and disbanded?

A. That night?

Q. Yes, sir?

A. No, sir. I directed my staff officers to notify the commanding officers of companies that their services were not needed, and to take their men to the armories and dismiss them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What the captain wishes to get at is, did your men break ranks there at the Union depot?

A. I had a company in the next day at ten o'clock.

Q. They marched out by companies?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Means:

Q. What I want to get at is this: If your regiment was disbanded at the Union depot; and after that, did you not have command of them as a regiment?

A. Well, sir, I dismissed my regiment at the Union depot. I also sent word to the companies who had to leave the city—I had four companies—that they were perfectly safe, and they better not go away till morning.

Q. What did they do with their arms, when you dismissed them?

A. They took them home, except one company; they could not get away that night, and stayed there. At ten the next day, I had three companies that went out on the eleven o'clock train.

By Mr. Means:

Q. The companies that left lived in the rural districts; they took their arms with them to their homes?

A. I think they all did, so far as I know, except one company.

Q. And they remained in the city?

A. That company was a home company, and remained at the Union depot until ten o'clock next day, before it left.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. How many rounds of ammunition had you?

A. I think we had about eight or ten rounds to a man. It was not very equally divided, but we averaged that during the morning. We had received our ammunition, our share of the ammunition, by requisition, a few weeks before that time, and had sent out to the arsenal, and they had not received it, and it was left at Captain Fox's armory, in Lawrenceville, and on that morning, I think that we hadn't enough, and I sent out a wagon and had a box of a thousand rounds brought in, and it was carried up from the crossing to my regiment, and a great many of the strikers came up to see what kind it was, and that was the only time that any of them was up there in any considerable number. That is, if there were any up there, they were strikers away from the fold. They came up, and I allowed them to remain there until the ammunition was distributed and issued, so that they could see what it was. Then I ordered them down the hill and they went. A few minutes after that one of their number, I presume him to be one of their number, came up and commenced to me about our being there, and I asked him who he was, and he said he was a striker, and that they were armed and that they were going to fight for their rights.

Q. This was on Saturday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Before the Philadelphia troops came out there?

A. Yes, sir; he said they were armed and they were going to fight for their rights. I heard him, and told him if that was all the business they had up there he had better get down the hill, or I would arrest him. He left. That is the only man I talked to that day outside of my own regiment.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Did you know who that man was?

A. No; I did not know him.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. At the time your dismissed your troops at the Union Depot hotel, about eleven o'clock, was the whole number with you that you took out in the morning?

A. No, sir; there was not.

Q. What had become of those that were not there?

A. I dismissed some men early in the day of Saturday morning, men whom I think were not in a condition to do service there under the circumstances.

Q. For what reason?

A. There was two of them got something to drink and got drunk. I think they were drunk, and I relieved them from duty and sent them away. That was one thing I had great care about. I believe that a commander is responsible for the morality of his men, and I was looking after that particularly on that occasion.

Q. How many less men did you have at night?

A. I had between thirty and forty.

Q. That were missing—some of those went off on their own account?

A. No, sir. I dismissed one company entire. I had one company after the firing of the troops—a great many of the killed and wounded were killed immediately in front of my line, and I saw the men raising their guns to fire, and I ordered my men to lie down, and I think I saved the lives of some of them by so doing. Immediately after that there was a great deal of excitement, and the crowd down on the hill side came rushing back and got in the rear of my line. I ordered the captains to examine the men to see that they had not loaded their arms. I did not anticipate that that was the end of it, but I wanted to know whether any of my men had loaded their arms under the excitement, and I found it was reported that some of them had. I saw some myself, and this company—the lieutenant had an altercation and tussle, and took a gun—the man refused to obey, and the lieutenant took hold of the gun and took it from him. It created a panic in the company, and they ran back of the line for a few yards, and I sent Colonel Glenn to see what the trouble was, and the men were a good deal excited. Afterwards the captain came to me and I sent an order to have them remain there in that position, and the captain came to me afterwards and asked me to order them back into the line, which I refused to do. I determined to send them home. I dismissed twenty-eight men in one company. I want to say that I believe I did these men a great injustice. Some of these men tried to get back here at night. I did not know the circumstances, and I supposed that under the excitement of the firing that they had run back. And when the matter was explained to me afterwards, I believe I did them a great injustice. I know I did, because they did service after worthy of all praise.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did any of your men straggle off and desert?

A. Some men went away—not many.

Q. How many men had you at night, or about how many, when you dismissed the regiment?

A. I had about one hundred and forty-six men and twenty-seven officers. I had my men counted before I dismissed them. I was not deceived in regard to them from first to last.

Q. What was the captain's name of that company you sent off?

A. Captain Graham.

Q. Were they veterans as a general thing—had seen service?

A. Which?

Q. These men in the company.

A. I could not answer that; some of them were, I know that. All my officers are old veterans, except one.

Q. You have seen service in the war?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In what capacity did you serve in the army?

A. Orderly sergeant.

Q. For how long were you in the service?

A. From September, 1861, until the last day of May, 1861.

Q. When you were wounded?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What explanation did you have from General Brown for disbanding the regiment or dismissing the regiment at that time?

A. There was no explanation of it at that time.

Q. Did you think that that order of General Brown's to dismiss the regiment could be justified on any grounds?

A. No, sir.

Q. You dismissed your regiment upon that order, simply because you consider it your duty to do so. You obeyed orders?

A. Yes; I obeyed orders.

Q. Where was the Nineteenth regiment at that time?

A. I only saw one of the officers of the Nineteenth regiment at the Union depot, and that was Captain Bingham.

General A. L. Pearson, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. I live in the city, sir.

Q. What is your profession?

A. I am a member of the bar of this city.

Q. Member of the National Guard?

A. Yes; I command the Sixth division National Guard.

Q. With what rank?

A. The rank of major general.

Q. Were you in the late war of the rebellion?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long?

A. I entered the service in the beginning of 1862, as captain, and went through the intermediate ranks of major, lieutenant colonel, colonel, and was afterwards brevetted brigadier and major general—commanded a brigade at the end of the war.

Q. Were you in the city on the 19th of July last?

A. Yes, sir; I was.

Q. State when you first heard of the disturbance among the railroad employés, and your connection with it thereafter?

A. On the evening of the 19th July—Thursday, I believe—I was going home-I live just at the Allegheny arsenal—I live on Thirty-ninth, just directly opposite the Allegheny arsenal—going out in the street car, and I observed numbers of men standing up along the railroad. At that time I knew there was no difficulty. Had not heard of any strike or any disturbance of any kind or character. I suppose I retired about half-past nine o'clock. In the neighborhood of ten, or probably half-past, a carriage drove up to my door, and the bell rang, and I went to the door and found a telegraph dispatch from General Latta, asking if I knew anything relative to the disturbance on the Pennsylvania railroad. The messenger who was in the carriage requested me to go with him. Who the gentleman was I do not know. I went with him.

Q. What time was the message received at the office?

A. That is what I cannot tell you.

Q. Did not notice that?

A. I did not notice it. I supposed it had just been received, and brought directly from the office to my residence. I received it probably a few minutes after ten—between ten and eleven. I got in the carriage and accompanied the gentleman down to Mr. Pitcairn's office, which is at the corner of Twenty-sixth and Liberty avenue. When I got there I think Mr. Scott was present, who was the solicitor of the road, and several other gentlemen. They told me about the difficulties, and stated that they had sent to Sheriff Fife. At that time I knew of no difficulties. Did not know there were any troubles at all, and I waited a long time, and I presume it was in the neighborhood of twelve o'clock when Sheriff Fife arrived, and they talked over the situation of affairs, and at the request of the sheriff I accompanied him to Twenty-eighth street, walking up the track.

Q. Twelve o'clock at night?

A. I suppose in the neighborhood of twelve o'clock in the night. When we arrived in the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street, several shots were fired—not at us, however. They were fired, I presume, in the air, at least, nobody was hurt, and we went in among the crowd, and the sheriff mounted a little pile of lumber or so, and told this crowd who he was, and was answered with most outrageous language. He told them he was there as a law officer of the county, and insisted upon them dispersing. Told them the consequences of their illegal acts. After he had spoken sometime, some one, who evidently was leader of the party, cried out, "Why, you can go and bring your posse, we don't care a damn for you or your posse. Mayor McCarthy and his police are with us." Then they mentioned the name of some merchant who had promised them a thousand barrels of flour, and another gentleman who promised them one thousand dollars if they would continue. After they had made these remarks, two or three of the fellows took me one side, and told me about a man named McCall, who had been arrested for striking Mr. Watt, and wanted to know if I would defend him next morning at the mayor's office at ten o'clock. I told them if it was necessary; that I was an attorney, and I would go with them, and advised them to leave the railroad property at that time. Talked to them quietly, and promised to meet them the next morning to defend this fellow who had struck Mr. Watt. Sheriff Fife still talked with the crowd. The crowd was very large, and, while he was talking, one or two, maybe three, dispatches—whether they were telegraphic dispatches or not, I do not know—but they received one or two, and probably three dispatches.

Q. The mob?

A. The mob; and as some person would announce the fact that they received these dispatches they would run hurriedly with a lantern, and he would read it out. They said we don't care a damn for you, or your posse, to-morrow at eleven o'clock we will stop every road in the Commonwealth. There will not be a railroad train run to-morrow after eleven o'clock. Their language was simply outrageous. One or two women in the party were, if anything, worse than the men, and extended invitations to the sheriff which he did not accept at that time. Whether he has or not, I don't know. No such invitations were extended to me, however. At that time I was treated very civil, indeed. They treated me very nicely with the exception of the boisterous language which had been used more directly to the sheriff. Finding nothing could be done they insisted upon remaining where they were, and stopping the trains. We walked down to the telegraph office where we had left, and there in consultation with Mr. Scott and others who were present, the sheriff sent communications to the Governor, to the Lieutenant Governor, to the Adjutant General, and Mr. Quay, and whether he sent to any other State officers or not I can't say. He hesitated at first in regard to writing these communications, and said he would prefer to have his attorney. Says he: "I can't reach Mr. Carnochan, but I will submit and ask your advice in regard to this matter."

Q. That is, addressing himself to you?

A. Addressing himself to me. I told him I was very free to confess that after having heard what had been said by the mob at Twenty-eighth street, and the fact that there was not a single police officer to be seen in that neighborhood, although large crowds had congregated there, that it was more than likely that what they said in regard to the mayor was true, that everything looked very serious, that he had but one duty to perform, and that was to call out his posse comitatus, and in view of the fact that everything looked so badly just then, that I would not hesitate, were I the sheriff of the county, under the circumstances, to notify the Adjutant General of the true state of affairs. He then sent the telegraphic dispatches as I have stated.

Q. By whom were they written?

A. That is what I cannot tell you, sir. They were sent, I know, by the sheriff. They were not written by myself, and I do not think they were written by Sheriff Fife.

Q. Were they written by Mr. Scott, the solicitor?

A. I think it is more than probable that Mr. Scott wrote the dispatches. When I knew he was going to send the dispatches I had other things to think about. I knew my command was scattered, and I would have a good deal of work to get them out if I was so ordered.

Q. Who first suggested the calling out of the militia in that conversation?

A. That would be hard to tell. The conversation was a general one. Probably there were half a dozen gentlemen present at that meeting.

Q. Between yourself and the sheriff?

A. There was Mr. Scott was there, and I think Mr. Watt and the sheriff, and two or three other railroad officials, and myself. The dispatches were sent. I telegraphed General Latta that I was then at the telegraph office, and subject to any orders that he might send. At about three o'clock, probably half past three o'clock in the morning, I received a telegraphic communication—order from General Latta—ordering me to place one regiment—ordering out one regiment for duty. Upon that order I telegraphed Colonel Guthrie, who resided at the East End, telling him I had ordered out his regiment—the Eighteenth regiment. I came down to the city and stopped one or two of the newspaper presses, and got my order—I think it was in the Gazette and the Dispatch—calling upon the Eighteenth regiment to assemble at their armory at six o'clock in the morning, and report at the Union depot at seven. My adjutant was out of town, and I had no means of reaching any members of my staff; but having telegraphed Colonel Guthrie, I fortunately met him early on the following morning, and he had been at work from the time he had received my dispatch in getting his men together. From the fact that his regiment was scattered all over town, it was almost impossible for him to have access to the members of his command, and they did not report at the hour named, to wit: seven o'clock in the morning, but at about twelve o'clock. Colonel Guthrie reported at the Union Depot hotel. I deemed it then—at that time, at Torrens station, where the stock-yards were—there was a large number of sheds, and a great many cattle congregated there, and a large crowd had been there, and I considered it was the principal point of attack—that there was more danger to be apprehended there than any place else. I consequently sent Guthrie and his command to Torrens station by rail. I had telegraphed General Latta of the situation of affairs, and suggested the propriety of calling out the remainder of my division, and received an answer thereto, with orders to that effect. General Brown lived at McKee's, some distance below the city, and I had no means of communicating. I consequently issued my orders directly to the regimental commanders, Colonel Gray and Colonel Howard; also, instructing Captain Breck to report with two pieces of artillery. Late in the afternoon of Friday, probably in the neighborhood of half past three o'clock, Captain Breck reported with his two pieces of artillery, and Colonel Howard reported with but a very few men—I suppose, all told, not fifty from his regiment. I then ordered Colonel Howard and Captain Breck, with his two pieces of artillery, to take their position on Liberty avenue, with the expectation of moving out to Twenty-eighth street. Mr. Thaw, Mr. Scott, and Mr. Cassatt, and one or two other gentlemen, met at the office of Mr. Butler, who was the depot master, and wanted to know whether I could clear Twenty-eighth street with the number of men I then had—that was about seventy-five. I told them there was no doubt about my——

Q. What time was that?

A. That was at four o'clock. I told them there was no doubt about my ability to clear the tracks, at that time, with the number of men. That I had already ordered them to start, to go out Liberty avenue to Twenty-eighth street, and up Twenty-eighth, and take possession of the tracks at that point. I had no doubt of my ability to clear the tracks, at that time, but I was compelled to say that it would be at a fearful loss of life, a thing that I preferred to avert, if possible. Mr. Thaw and Mr. Scott both expostulated, and asked if I would send an aid, and stop the troops from going at that time, which I did. They halted at the Catholic church, and we then talked the matter over. Mr. Cassatt thought it much better to go out and take possession of the property then, even if there should be a trouble. I told them, then, that I could go and take possession of the track, that I thought, from the feeling that was existing then, it would be impossible for me, with seventy-five men, to hold the position. I would clear the tracks, but I would not promise to hold the position at that locality. After considerable conversation, believing it better to avert bloodshed and loss of life, and, acting upon the suggestion of Mr. William Thaw and Mr. Scott, I re-called the troops, and brought them into the Union depot, but, in the meantime, I had visited Torrens station, in company with the sheriff, and he there had spoken to the crowd, and commanded and demanded that they should disperse. They treated him with a very great deal of disrespect, hurling all sorts of outrageous epithets at him, and, seeing quite a number in the crowd whom I knew, not by name, but whom I knew, I thought if I would talk to them I might have some influence, and I got up on a tender, and spoke to them. It just had the opposite effect. They said, we don't care a damn for you or your troops. One man in particular said, "I have been in the army for four years, and many of us have been, and we are going to have bread or blood, and we will wade up to our waists in blood before this thing is over." I told them that was the language generally used by fellows who ran away. There was a good many women and children, and I begged that they would go away. We then returned to Twenty-eighth street, and I again spoke to the crowd there, with a like result. After the troops had been re-called into the Union Depot hotel, it was suggested that, inasmuch as very many of the men of my division were workingmen, who, probably, had fathers or brothers who were directly interested in the railroads, being employés of the road, that their sympathies would be with those that were opposing law and order, that some other troops should be called, and Mr. Cassatt suggested that a Philadelphia regiment be sent for. I telegraphed to General Latta what had been suggested, and, in answer thereto, he asked what I thought of affairs. I told him, from the situation of affairs, that I thought it would be much better to bring additional troops here, and that we ought not to have less than two thousand. That there was but one way to avoid the shedding of blood and loss of life, and that was to overawe the strikers and rioters by an appearance of strength. Acting upon that suggestion, I think General Brinton's command was ordered here. In the evening, I received a telegraphic dispatch from General Latta, stating that he had ordered General Brinton's division to report to me. I received a dispatch from General Brinton, stating that he would leave at one o'clock with eighteen hundred men, fully armed and equipped. At that time, Colonel Gray had reported with the Fourteenth regiment at the Union depot, and a considerable number of the Nineteenth regiment—Colonel Howard's regiment—had also reported, swelling the entire strength of the division to the neighborhood, probably, of six hundred men. Of that number Colonel Guthrie, probably, had two hundred, and over, men at Torrens station. Anticipating the arrival of General Brinton early on Saturday morning before daylight, I ordered Colonel Gray, and Colonel Howard, and Captain Breck to have their men under arms, and ready for any movement I might suggest.

Q. On Saturday morning?

A. Yes, sir; and I think about two-thirty o'clock that morning, I sent Colonel Gray out, taking a circuitous route—taking Bedford avenue, so as to strike the top of the hill directly opposite Twenty-eighth street, with orders to deploy on the summit of the hill, and move down, and giving him time to get to that locality. I had taken out Breck's two guns upon gondola cars and what troops of the Nineteenth had reported under Colonel Howard, and just as we reached Twenty-eighth street, Colonel Gray's regiment could be seen coming down from the summit of the hill, and moving down towards the pieces. At that time there were not many men there—not many of the mob. We disembarked Captain Breck's guns, and placed them in position, facing Twenty-eighth street, and commanding that position. Colonel Gray moved his command down, probably half way down the hill and halted. Colonel Howard took possession of the railroad tracks, and I walked up to meet Colonel Gray's command, and found half a dozen men who had evidently been posted there, and we drove them off the hill. We pushed the crowd back clear to the westerly track, and I told them then and there, that the Philadelphia troops had been ordered here, and that we had no blank ammunition, that these men were all sworn into the service, that they had but one duty to perform, and that was to obey orders, and that they were there in opposition to the law, and that they must leave.

Q. The mob was there in opposition?

A. The mob was there in opposition to the law, and they must leave the tracks, that they had no right there, and that the orders that I would give to my troops would be to keep the hill side clear, and the tracks open for the passage of any trains the railroad officials might see fit to send. There was considerable howling at that time, and some of them spoke about wanting bread, and says I, "If you want bread, if you will go away from there, I will send you a car load of bread. I will furnish you with all the bread you want, if you go away and let these tracks alone." The tracks then were comparatively clear. There was no person on the hill side with the exception of the troops. I then gave directions to General Brown, who had command of the infantry portion of the division, to keep the hill side clear, and allow no person upon the track, and to hold it in the position until he received further orders from me. He spoke of the fact that Twenty-eighth street was a public street, and that the public had a right to use it. I told him that was a matter he had no concern about whatever. I had the responsibility of closing up that street, and I gave him an order to keep the hill side clear, and the people off the track, and anything he might do to carry out that order I would be responsible for, and he would be doing what would place him in no false position. I then jumped on the locomotive, and returned to the Union Depot hotel. During this time numbers of people had come to me to expostulate with me for calling out the troops. I told them that was a matter in which I had no concern whatever; I was merely obeying orders. I was a sworn officer of the Commonwealth, and that every officer and every man in my command had filed their oaths to obey orders. I was there to obey orders, and anything that might happen would not be upon my shoulders, but upon those who were breaking the laws. I received telegrams from General Brinton from various points on his route to Pittsburgh from Philadelphia. When he reached Pittsburgh, it was then in the neighborhood of two o'clock. He had about five hundred and fifty men and two Gatling guns, and I think twenty thousand rounds of extra ammunition. Upon his arrival, we furnished his command—they came in two sections—when the first section arrived, we furnished the troops of that section with such rations as we could procure, which was nothing more or less than a sandwich and cup of coffee, and probably thirty minutes after the second section arrived, and we furnished the troops in that section with sandwiches and coffee. We took the ammunition and placed it in the small building near the track, and I then took General Brinton out and had a consultation with General Latta, who was then in the Union Depot hotel. He wanted to know what my plans were, and I told him, and he asked me the question, "Do you still think that it is better to overawe the mob with the large number of troops?" And I told him, certainly I did, and General Latta agreed with me. Says he, "I think you are pursuing a wise policy. We will try to avert the shedding of blood and loss of life if possible." He then wanted me to show General Brinton the situation of affairs, and I drew a small plot of Twenty-eighth street and the hill, and the track, the round-house, &c. And General Latta asked me, "Who will you send out with General Brinton to show him the situation?" I told him I had better go out myself. We started out the tracks, taking the two Gatling guns by hand. At that time a large crowd was congregated in the neighborhood of the Union Depot hotel, many of them looking over the fences, and others had got inside, and were mingling with the troops, but we pushed out the tracks, and in the neighborhood of Twenty-fourth street there was quite a crowd lining the tracks, standing on the cars, occupying the side of the hill. Probably at that time there was in the neighborhood of one thousand five hundred or two thousand cars laden with all kinds of goods there, and I suggested to General Brinton the propriety of leaving a portion of his troops to guard his flank and rear, as well as to protect the cars, which he did. I think that was probably General Loud's brigade, consisting probably of three hundred men. They were deployed over that locality clear up to the lower round-house. We pushed on with the balance of the troops, headed by the sheriff and his posse. When we got to Twenty-eighth street, instead of finding the tracks clear, and the hill side clear of people, there was one dense mass of humanity, men, women, and children—the hill side was crowded with people. I could not see Colonel Gray's regiment, the Fourteenth. I found a small portion of the Nineteenth occupying the right hand track of the railroad, and the entire tracks in possession of the mob. As we went up the track the sheriff was received with all manner of derisive shouts, calling him all sorts of names. I was received in a like manner, but the crowd seemed to know me very well by name. They pointed me out, and everything that a dirty, low man could say was said. At that time one of the mob pushed through the line of soldiers and struck at one of the officers—whether it was General Brinton, or General Mathews, who commanded one of his brigades, I don't know.

Q. What did he strike with?

A. Struck him with his fist. I got the fellow by the shoulder and quickly pushed him towards the sheriff. Says I, "Here is a fellow that will make trouble; take charge of this man." The sheriff pushed him into the midst of his posse. At that time there was a fellow standing upon my right, just off the railroad tracks, and he was doing a good deal of loud talking and making all sorts of threats. I pointed him out to the sheriff, and says I, "Here is another fellow you had better arrest; he will make trouble." I pushed through the mob and started up the hillside to find where General Brown was—to find where the Fourteenth regiment was, and the remainder of the Nineteenth was. I found Colonel Howard, who commanded the Nineteenth regiment, occupying a position on a private road leading to the West Pennsylvania hospital, and asked him the question what he was doing there. He said he had been ordered to report there, and, says he, "I am sorry to say you can place but little dependence upon the troops of your division, and some of the men have thrown down their arms and others have left, and I fear the situation very much;" and spoke in like terms—says he, "I think the Fourteenth regiment is in the same position." I then gave orders to Colonel Howard to move his command in such a position that they would be of some use in case of attack, which he immediately proceeded to do. I then came down, pushed through the mob, and having heard this information from Colonel Howard of the situation of affairs, and finding General Brown was not to be found, I did not see him, and did not know where he was—had not seen him that day at all—and finding the hill side occupied with people, the tracks in complete possession of the mob, the troops outnumbered in a very large degree, I concluded it was my duty then to notify General Latta of the state of affairs, and to ask that additional troops be sent for. I knew that four divisions had been ordered under arms prior to that—General White's, General Huidekoper's, General Gallagher's, and probably General Bolton's, had been ordered under arms prior to that. As I pushed through the mob I found that General Brinton had deployed, by what command I cannot state. But one single line of his troops occupied a portion of the westerly track. There was a single rank facing the hill side, and as I passed down the company was moving up from his rear and moving directly up the tracks towards Twenty-eighth street. I left my station there with Major Evans, walked down the tracks, entered the telegraph office at the corner of Twenty-sixth and Liberty avenue, and telegraphed General Latta of the situation of affairs, asking if he would immediately telegraph to the Fourth division commanders and order them at once. Probably that had hardly taken place, and in looking out of the window I found a man carrying a boy across his arms with his legs dangling down. I remarked to Major Evans that I feared there had been a conflict. He went out and came back with the report that a boy had been sun-struck. Just then I heard a cry on Liberty avenue, and looking out of the window I found the dead and wounded being carried past, and the crowd rushing down to the workshops of the railroad. At that instant Mr. Cassatt came in. He had been up in the cupola of one of the workshops, and had seen the firing and was the first to communicate the fact to me that the firing had taken place. I had not even heard the reports of the muskets. I presume the noise of the ticking of the telegraphic instruments and the steam which was up in half a dozen locomotives in the adjoining round-house was such that I did not hear the explosion of the pieces. Mr. Cassatt stated that as the mob was rushing round Twenty-eighth street and down Liberty, towards the round-houses, he feared destruction of property. The round-houses were filled with locomotives, the workshops filled full of valuable machinery, and the tracks lined with cars laden with all sorts of valuables of every kind and character, and stated that he feared that property would be destroyed. I had sent word to General Brinton asking him, if necessary, to send a staff officer to me or communicate in person. He came in in a moment or two, stating that he had cleared the tracks; that the mob had fired upon his troops; that many of the men had been knocked down by stones and pieces of iron, and without orders his troops had fired into the crowd; that the tracks were cleared, and that he was ready, and if they had any trains to send them out. It was then stated by some of the railroad officials that they had no crews to send out trains, and Brinton suggested that in as much as nothing could be done that night, and his men were almost in a famished condition, that they be brought into the round-houses or workshops. I then stated that it was the only thing to be done to save the property of the road. I issued orders to General Brinton to bring his troops in and to occupy the round-house, and I sent direct communications to Colonel Howard and Colonel Gray ordering them to bring their regiments in and take possession of the transfer offices, which were long wooden sheds, extending from Twenty-third, I think, to Twenty-fourth street. My orders were obeyed. Captain Breck brought two pieces of his battery in and placed them in position, facing Twenty-sixth street. Brinton's two Gatling guns were brought in and placed in a like position. The gates fronting Twenty-eighth street were closed, and everything at that time in as good a condition as could possibly be. Mr. Pitcairn, superintendent of the western division of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, who had been an observer of all the Twenty-eighth street troubles, came in, and I suggested the propriety that they should go down and send out rations from the depot hotel. They said they would, and they started off for that purpose. Towards evening an express wagon came up. General Brinton and his staff was occupying the second story, then, of the telegraph office, and I had my station there. We were congratulating ourselves upon the fact that we were going to have at least one decent meal. We could see the express wagon coming up with the supper, and just at that time the crowd made a rush upon the wagon and took entire possession, and instead of supper we got broken dishes through the windows, which did not add much to the good feeling existing in the building at that time. And after that an Irishman—I know he was an Irishman by the cut of his jib and his language—drove up on a bob-tailed, lantern-jawed horse and made a very inflammatory speech to the mob right in front of the gate. It was a very ludicrous speech, and the mob seemed to take it as such, because one of them pulled off a piece of board off a fence and struck the horse over the back, and the last we could see of this Irish orator he was going down Liberty avenue. Then a few shots were fired through the windows, and stones thrown, and General Brinton insisted upon firing into the crowd with his Gatling guns. I expostulated with him, telling him the situation was not serious enough to use his guns at that time, because then on Liberty avenue, directly in connection with where we were, there were very few of the rioters. Down Twenty-sixth and up there probably there were a thousand men, women, and children congregated, and particularly women and children, and as his officers would go up to his Gatling guns the active rioters who were on Liberty avenue would get behind the stone wall, leaving Twenty-sixth street exposed. I ran out and called attention to the fact. Says I, "If you fire now instead of killing these people that should be killed, you will kill a large number of women and children who are merely idle spectators," and gave direct orders to one of the officers not to fire that gun. They apparently cooled down and returned into the building, and the thing was repeated. I then gave orders again that until the affairs became more desperate that there was no occasion to use the Gatling gun, because the active rioters would not be injured—that merely women and children would be knocked down in the streets. At eight o'clock—in the neighborhood of eight and nine o'clock—General Brinton had been complaining during this time of the half-famished condition of his troops, and I knew the fact that they were in a half-famished condition, and I knew my own troops were no better off. My commissary—the officer who attended to the commissary of my division—was at Torrens station. General Brinton was at the Union depot, and he asked me the question, "Can you not go down and try to get some provisions of some kind to carry to my troops?" Says I, "I think I can." At that time everything was apparently quiet, and, accompanied by the members of my staff, we started down the railroad track, leaving General Brinton in command at that place, leaving him with orders to hold the position.

Q. Where was Cassatt?

A. Mr. Cassatt had, long before this, gone to the Union Depot hotel. I do not think any of the railroad employés were there at all.

Q. What time was it you started?

A. I think it was between eight and nine o'clock that night. We started down the tracks, and when we reached the depot——

Q. Were you dressed in uniform?

A. Yes; my entire staff was in uniform. All had our swords and everything. When we reached the depot, everything was silent as a graveyard in and about the depot, and we passed down and entered the Union Depot hotel. We went up to General Latta's room, and there found General Latta, Colonel Quay, and Mr. Farr, the Governor's private secretary, Colonel Norris, of the Governor's staff, and several other gentlemen. There seemed to be a very great deal of surprise manifested at the fact that we had got through the crowd and reached the Union depot. I had established my head-quarters there at the beginning of the entire affair, and it was then suggested that, inasmuch as the rioters had blamed me for ordering the firing and killing the citizens, that my remaining in further command of the troops would only aggravate affairs, and that was doing a very material injury to the troops, and it was stated by some one in the room that the rioters had gone through the hotel looking for me. That they had gone from the cellar to the roof, and if found, I and any with me, would be hanged. I thought the threat was an idle one, and wanted to know what they wanted me to do. At that time we could hear bodies of men marching up with drums and fifes, and hear them shouting.

Q. What room was that?

A. General Latta's room, at the Union Depot hotel. And then General Latta suggested me—he asked the question—and says he, "Is General Brinton in command out at the round-house." Says I, "He is." Says he, "Then I think the best thing we can do for the situation of affairs and the protection of your troops, and to try and quell this disturbance, is for you to go away from here. If you do not go, you will be hanged." I told him there was a sufficient number of us there to make a hanging very agreeable to all, and I did not think there was much danger; if any one was hanged, somebody would be hurt. He said it was no time to use any levity; the situation was very serious, and my life was not worth a penny, and that my remaining in command of the troops was doing an injury; that I had been blamed for the whole thing. I asked him what he wanted me to do.

Q. What time was that in the evening?

A. It was between nine and ten o'clock.

Q. Saturday night?

A. Saturday night. Says I, "What do you want me to do? Do you wish me to change my head-quarters? If so, will I go to the Monongahela house?" "No; you will just be as bad off there as here," and then Major Evans, of my staff, spoke up, and said, "General Latta, if you insist that this ought to be done, let General Pearson come to my house." General Latta said, "Yes; that is the very thing to do." I had never been at Major Evans' house, but knew it was in the neighborhood. The address was taken by General Latta, and I think by Mr. Farr, of the Governor's staff. At that time, Mr. Dalzell, one of the attorneys of the road, came into the room, and I spoke to him, and I spoke to Quay. Says I, "Mr. Quay, do you think I ought to leave this place?" Says he: "I certainly do. The situation of affairs is such in the manner in which you are blamed for this, that you are doing an injury to the troops;" and others of the Governor's staff spoke up in the same way. Says I, "Very well, I take this as an order, but before I go I will leave you three members of the staff." I left my brother, Mr. Murray, and Major Steen, stating that I would be prepared to perform any duty. That these officers knew where I could be found, and anything they wished done, I would do. Major Evans and myself left. There was no possible way of getting out front, and we crossed a small bridge, and went up over the hill-side, and reached Major Evans' house. At that time there had not been a car fired, and there had been no torch communicated to anything—buildings or cars.

Q. Where was Major Evans' house?

A. Major Evans' house is situated in what is known as Oakland. I do not know what street he does live on.

Q. What distance from the Union depot?

A. I suppose it is in the neighborhood of a mile and a half. We reached Mayor Evans' house, and I then sent him over to find out, if he could ascertain anything about my family. I had heard my house was ransacked, and I know that my daughter had been driven away. She drove down in an open buggy after the firing. Came down to Twenty-sixth street and the round-house, where the troops were, drove through the mob, and tried to get some communication from me. It had been reported that I was shot. It was impossible to get any communication with her, and the mob drove her off. I sent Major Evans over to see if he could find out anything about my family. While he was gone, Colonel Moore and my brother came out for me to give him an order for ammunition at the Allegheny arsenal. The ammunition had been stored there and could not be taken out, except by my order. I gave the necessary orders. At that time everything was quiet. They started away with the orders for ammunition. Subsequently Major Evans came in and reported that so far as he could learn everything was quiet. At about ten o'clock, Sunday morning, I was wakened up and told of the fact that the rioters and mob had set fire to the cars and burned out the round-house, and I immediately sent a written communication to General Latta, by Major Evans, stating that I had heard what had taken place, and desired to receive some instructions from him. That I was ready to perform any service, and to do any duty, and to go any place, and suggested the propriety of immediately telegraphing the Governor for his return. Probably about one or two—it might have been after that—Sunday afternoon I received a verbal reply by Major Evans stating that General Latta had stated for me to remain where I was until I got further orders. My appearance then would only aggravate matters and do more harm than good, and for Major Evans to report on the Monday following. I sent Major Evans in on the Monday morning, and at the same time General Latta had left. I believe he did not see him. I know nothing at all about the situation of affairs from that time up.

Q. How long did you remain at Major Evans'?

A. I remained several days there, and the family being a strange family to me—had never seen his family. I knew the major very well—and having received intelligence that there was a likelihood of the major's house being mobbed, and not desiring to put them in a situation of that kind, I left Major Evans' house. Subsequent to that—of course, when I left the Union Depot hotel, I looked upon that as being virtually a relief from my command, and found, by reading the daily papers, that General Brown had assumed command of the division. I think it was the 1st of August—a number of days subsequent, anyhow—I received an official communication from the Governor, instructing me to hold my command in readiness to move at an hour not later than eight o'clock, and to go up to Luzerne coal regions, where difficulties were apprehended.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you go?

A. At that time I found that the division had been ordered to disband—verbal orders had been given by General Brown to disband the troops, and by accident I was at Colonel Guthrie's head-quarters, and I suggested the propriety of him not disbanding just at that time, and he concluded that he would not. That he would have a street parade of his regiment that evening. I returned to my head-quarters, and when I returned, I got orders from the Governor, ordering me to have my division in readiness to start off at an hour not later than eight o'clock. I immediately communicated with various officers of the division, and at the hour indicated I was ready to move with the entire command. Transportation could not be procured at that time, and we did not leave until the neighborhood of twelve o'clock—started off with, I think, one thousand and thirty-five men, and went to Luzerne county. Do you desire me to give an account of how we proceeded there, and what took place?

Q. You might state whether the mob went to your house in search of you?

A. Of my own personal knowledge, of course, I do not know. From what I have heard, they did go.

Q. You ordered Colonel Gray and Colonel Howard to move their commands to the transfer station, I believe you said?

A. Yes, sir; I did that, because I considered it my duty to put these men in positions I considered the most dangerous—they were my own troops. The transfer sheds were long, low frame buildings, extending probably in the neighborhood of a square, open and unprotected, and I thought it was my duty at least to expose my own troops much more than strangers who were coming here from a long distance. I placed General Brinton's command in brick buildings.

Q. Was it General Brinton's suggestion, or because you deemed it the best position, that you placed him in the round-house?

A. I found that no trains were to be run at all, that it would be mere and utter foolishness to keep General Brinton's troops standing upon the railroad tracks, and to place them upon the hill side would be exposing that command to danger, as all the hill side and all the buildings on it were filled up by railroaders, I believe, and consequently, to place General Brinton's command on the hill side would subject them to any troubles that might occur from the railroaders living above them, and of the mob getting round on top. Then, the further fact that the mob would have taken possession of the round-house and used the cars as barricades, and he could do nothing. He suggested the propriety of bringing them into the round-house, and giving them some chance to rest, and getting them provisions; and I say now, that knowing all the facts of the case, if the thing was to be done over again to-morrow, I would do exactly what was done. To have placed them in any other position than that in which they were placed, would have been a piece of folly that I would not be guilty of. A man that would have taken troops and placed them upon the hill side, under the situation of affairs, I would characterize as an ass, and not worthy of commanding troops.

Q. Would it not have been better to have retired the troops to the Union depot, inasmuch as there were no trains to be moved that night?

A. It would have been a great deal pleasanter to the troops, but it would have given entire possession of the cars, round-houses, workshops, locomotives, and the entire moving machinery of the Pennsylvania railroad—placed it entirely in the hands of the mob.

Q. Could you not have sent out detachments to have driven away any mob that might have gathered for the purpose of burning buildings?

A. That might have been done in an open field, but the fact that the railroad tracks ran along Liberty avenue, are probably ten or twelve feet above the grade on Liberty avenue, and then on the right of the tracks is a hill side, and Brinton did not bring one thousand eight hundred men, Brinton brought about six hundred men, and Colonel Guthrie was at Torrens, and to have scattered the few men out along the railroad tracks—men who did not know the situation of affairs, and did not know the general locality of the ground, they would be subject to all sorts of annoyance, and could be shot down at pleasure by those people. There is one thing the committee must understand, that this mob did not only congregate at Twenty-eighth street. They formed in position on the south side; that they came over in a compact body by regiments. They formed in different localities in Allegheny City, and different places, and they were all marched to a given point, and to have sent a few troops along the line of the track they could have picked them up, one by one, and carried them off body and breeches. There was but one thing to do, and it was to take possession of the buildings, and the only mistake that was made was General Brinton's not calling out his pickets and shooting down the people, as they should have been shot down, and the property would have been saved, and if it had been saved, General Brinton and others would have been hanged for murder, because the feeling in this community at that time was such that if it had not been for the fact that the railroad property had been burned down, and private property had been taken and robbed, and private buildings burned down, there was no officer in command of troops safe, and his life was not worth a penny. The feeling in the community was such that I have no hesitancy in saying indictments would have been found and the officers convicted of manslaughter.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Is there no similarity between this riot, and the military force meeting the enemy in the field of battle?

A. Certainly not. Meeting an enemy on a field of battle, you go there to kill. The more you kill, and the quicker you do it, the better; but in this instance you had a division of six hundred men—my division was six hundred men. Colonel Guthrie was at Torrens, surrounded by a mob. The balance of my troops were at Twenty-eighth street, and here you had men who had fathers and brothers and relatives mingled in the crowd of rioters, and it was very natural for them to have a feeling that to fire then and kill these men, was like shooting their own relatives. The sympathy of the people, the sympathy of the troops, my own sympathy, was with the strikers proper. We all felt that those men were not receiving enough wages.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You say you meet an enemy on a field of battle, and you go there to kill. What was the purpose of the troops in going out to Twenty-eighth street?

A. The purpose of the troops was to try to preserve order and preserve peace. There would be no difficulty of us going out there and commencing to shoot if that had been an enemy. The first thing we would have done, would be to throw out a skirmish line and commence to shoot.

Q. You were to preserve the peace at all hazards—if necessary to preserve the peace to call, you are justifiable in doing it?

A. Certainly.

Q. When an attack is made upon your troops with clubs and stones, and firing into your troops, are you not justified in killing?

A. My opinion may be different from a great many other military men. I look at it in this way: when troops are officered, it is the duty of the officers to do the thinking. If every man that carries a musket has a right to think and shoot just as he thinks, there is no occasion to have any officers at all, because, when we started out from the Union Depot hotel these Philadelphia men were insulted long before they arrived. Colonel Guthrie was insulted at Torrens, and if each man had carried out his own thoughts and commenced to shoot, it would have showed a great want of discipline.

Q. Would not the commanding officer be justifiable in giving the command to fire?

A. Most undoubtedly so. He would not only be justifiable, but it would be his duty so to do, and I have no hesitancy in saying, from what I have learned from the manner in which General Brinton's troops were received and treated, and the shots that were fired at them, the stones that were hurled at them, and the fact that these men were knocked down, it was his duty to have given the order to fire, and if I had been there I would have had no hesitancy in giving the order.

Q. What I understand you to say is, that there was not a public sentiment that would have justified the commanding officer in giving that command to kill?

A. The sentiment afterwards showed that the sentiment was directly against the firing.

Q. Do you mean to say that the civil authorities, the civil arm of the government, would not have protected the military officer in giving a command to fire under circumstances of the attack made there at Twenty-eighth street on the militia?

A. I have got to answer that in a twofold capacity. As a lawyer, I believe that the courts would most undoubtedly have sustained the officer. I believe that the mayor and his police were in direct opposition to the troops—after having heard the crowd state that the mayor and his police were in sympathy with them, and finding that no arrests had been made, and knowing the fact that upon every occasion that mayor's police were only too anxious to protect men up for disorderly conduct, that there was not a police officer to be found at Twenty-eighth street, and that no arrests had been made, although there was any number of chances to arrest for disorderly conduct and other offenses—finding that none of those officers were there, I had no other way to think that these men had said truly, that Mayor McCarthy and his police were in sympathy with the mob. I telegraphed Mayor McCarthy after the troops had been taken into the round-house—I telegraphed him, and I told him I thought his presence there might be the means of saving life. I believe then, and I believe now, that if Mayor McCarthy had come at that time and talked to the crowd, something might have been done. There was then a terrible feeling against the troops, and no feeling against the police. I believed then, and I believe now, that if he had responded to my telegraph, many valuable lives might have been saved. There was no sympathy extended to the troops by anybody outside of the sheriff and his posse. The sheriff and his posse were the only ones that gave any aid or assistance to the troops. He did all that he knew how and all that he could.

Q. Did you have any communication with the sheriff, after the firing at Twenty-eighth street?

A. No, sir; I did not see the sheriff after that.

Q. Do you know where he went?

A. I have no idea.

Q. You were in communication with him up to that time?

A. Certainly; he was at the head of the troops.

Q. And you, as commanding officer, were to protect him in making his arrests?

A. Yes; he was armed with warrants from Judge Young to arrest certain parties therein named, and we went out with him.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You speak of an order you received from General Latta. Did that order purport to be signed by order of the Governor, sent by him as Adjutant General?

A. No, sir; it was not by order of the Governor; it was a telegraphic communication, ordering me to order out one regiment.

Q. Was it official?

A. I think so. I have not got it, because they were destroyed at the Union depot. I think the Adjutant General's report shows all those telegrams. I think that gives all the telegrams that passed.

Q. Did you, at any time, give an order to the troops to fire?

A. I am sorry to say that I did not. I am sorry to say I was not there when the occasion required such an order. If I had been there, I would have given the order, and in such a manner that the active rioters would receive their reward of merit. They deserved it, and they ought to have had it. I am only sorry to say I was not there.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. You said the people expostulated with you about calling out the troops. What people were they that came to you and expostulated?

A. Oh, very early in the morning. Of course, the Friday morning papers had the order, and people came to me, at the Union Depot hotel, and say, "You ought not to do this thing; these men are workingmen; they have their rights."

Q. Were there many of them—more than two or three?

A. I was stopped on the street by women—respectable women. I was stopped in the streets by business men of the place.

Q. Business men of the place expostulated with you?

A. Yes; and after the firing, men came to me and insisted upon my taking the troops out of the round-house. I want to say this in regard—there may be an impression in regard to the manner in which the Sixth division responded to my order—that it may not be known to the committee that we have no direct way of calling out the troops—that is, by any alarm—not by a fire alarm or anything of that kind. An officer has to hunt up his officers, and they, in turn, have got to hunt up their men, who are scattered all over through two cities, and when I notified Colonel Guthrie, I found him early in the morning and he was hard at work, and they responded as promptly as any regiment could possibly respond. There was no way to get his men together any sooner than they did. They went to Torrens station, as per order, and I believe remained intact until the 6th or 7th day of September. I do not know of them having disbanded for a single instant, from the time that they were first called out, until the end of the trouble in Luzerne county, and the Fourteenth regiment, as I have subsequently learned, performed their service as well as a regiment could. They had been ordered to disband, contrary to the wishes of Colonel Gray and his officers, and nearly obeyed an order made by a superior officer.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You knew nothing of the command which General Brown gave?

A. No, sir; there are officers who heard the command and know all about that.

Q. He did it upon his own responsibility?

A. Certainly. Had General Brown carried out the instructions he received at Twenty-eighty street, and kept the hill side and the tracks clear, with the plans I had adopted of taking General Brinton out, and letting him occupy the position, and sending a portion of General Brown's command to Colonel Guthrie, and used a portion for the taking out of trains, I think there would have been no subsequent troubles. Instead of that we found the ground entirely occupied and in possession of the rioters and sympathizers, and the result was just as you know.

Q. Could the destruction of property have been prevented by any other distribution of the troops that night, do you think?

A. I presume, had we known the fact that the rioters had converted themselves from men to devils, and had concluded to roast everybody alive, and gone into it in the manner in which they did, that something might have been done. Of course, no one could anticipate the fact that those men would send burning flames of oil down upon the troops in the round-house. No man living could ever think of such a thing.

At this point the committee adjourned until ten o'clock, to-morrow morning.

MORNING SESSION.

Pittsburgh, Friday, February 22, 1878.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at ten o'clock. Mr. Lindsey in the chair. All members present.

Mayor W. C. McCarthy, affirmed:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where is your residence?

A. My residence is 95, Robert street, Eleventh ward.

Q. What official position did you hold in this city last July?

A. I was mayor of the city.

Q. How long had you occupied that position?

A. Since the 1st day of February, 1875—the last time—I occupied it before.

Q. When did you first learn of any disturbance at the Pennsylvania railroad?

A. On Thursday, the 19th of July, in the forenoon.

Q. About what time?

A. That I am not able to say, but I suppose it was in the early forenoon.

Q. How did you learn of the fact?

A. Mr. Watt came to me in the mayor's office, asking me if I could furnish him with ten men. I told him no. By and by—before I come to that, I will give you the police force and the disposition of it. Every person connected with the police force consisted entirely of one hundred and twenty, having a supervision over twenty-seven square miles. Five of them were simply lamp watchmen, leaving one hundred and fifteen policemen. They were divided as follows: One captain, one chief, two turn-keys at the central station, eight station-house keepers, eight front office men. These eight men were all the men we had in daylight, all told, the rest were put on night duty. One night watchman at the city hall, two roundsmen. These roundsmen are men who perambulate the whole city, for the purpose of having an eye to the different police, that they were attending to their duty, and we had one corner man—a man stationed at the corner of Fifth avenue and Smithfield street—and nine lieutenants, and eighty-two patrolmen. These eighty-two patrolmen are men whose metes and bounds were set out to travel. We had one hundred and fifteen police of all kinds, classes, and individuals.

Q. How much ground was covered by each one of these patrolmen?

A. Some less and some more, if you knew the city I think you would know it. Well, take for instance, starting at the corner of Fourth avenue and Smithfield street, go following the cars down to the river; downwards, go down Fourth avenue in that direction and you cross Wood street, and you cross Market street, and you come to Ferry street, then you go along Ferry street, which may be called the lower end of town, to Second, then you reverse and come up this way, you come to Smithfield street, and you walk up to the corner of Fourth avenue and Smithfield street, the place of beginning, a route that really would be too much for two men, one man had to do it.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. How much ground would a man have to cover taking in all the side streets?

A. He would have to cover six squares, and extraordinarily large squares at that, and I think that it would take him over twenty minutes to rapidly walk it.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. These police were night watchmen then all of them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Had you before that had any day police?

A. Oh, yes. Previous to that, altogether the whole police force of policemen, including ten lamp-watchmen, consisted of two hundred and twenty-six men, and in consequence of the heavy taxation, and the absolute inability of the treasurer to pay for the policemen, they were compelled to cut it down one hundred and eleven men, or rather one hundred and sixteen men altogether—I am talking about policemen, I leave the lamp watchmen out—and then there was a deficiency of sixteen to eighteen thousand dollars for the year.

Q. When was that done?

A. That was done on the 1st of July, or thereabouts, maybe a little before that.

Q. You may state what occurred when Mr. Watt came to your office, on Thursday, the 19th?

A. Mr. Watt came and stated that he wanted ten men. I told him I couldn't furnish him ten men. I would furnish him with what we could, but if he would pay for them, we could pick up some of those discharged policemen who were not employed, and he very promptly answered that he would pay for them. So I told Detective McGovern and some others to take what they could, and all our own men, and fill up with the idle policemen, and that the policemen would be paid by Mr. Watt. Mr. Watt requested me to go up with them, which I declined to do. I couldn't see any reason why the mayor of the city of Pittsburgh should go to the Pennsylvania depot to take cognizance of a disturbance that only required ten men, in his own opinion, and I sent a very faithful and one of the best officers in charge of the men, Detective McGovern, a very clear-headed man.

Q. What did he say as to the extent of the disturbance up there?

A. He made no remarks about that.

Q. Did you ask him anything about it?

A. No, sir. Gave him what he asked for.

Q. Was any report made to you by Officer McGovern.

A. Oh, yes. We had reports all the time from that until this morning. Officer McGovern reported to me—I cannot say whether it was McGovern, or who it was—but the first intimation I had of any violence was a report come to me that a man by the name of McCall had struck Mr. Watt; that he was arrested and taken to the station-house by the police. Then I heard afterwards from this time out—what I have got to say about Thursday will be hearsay. You can produce evidence and substantiate whatever I may say—I heard there was a train somewhere about three o'clock to go out, and the police aboard the train told the engineer they would protect him. The track was clear, and the engineer refused to go on, and got down and left the engine in the possession of the police.

Q. What police was on the train?

A. That was in the afternoon.

Q. What police was on the train?

A. I cannot exactly tell you, but I think that Mr. Motts, Mr. Coulson, and some others were there.

Q. How did you obtain this information?

A. From the police.

Q. An official report from the police?

A. Oh, no. We didn't have that much red tape about these things. The only red tape we had was the morning report of the different lieutenants. I can produce the men; I suppose you will want them to verify it.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. They would report to the lieutenant would they?

A. No; they were in charge of Mr. Watt. The truth is, these men are under the control of the officers of the Pennsylvania railroad, and I felt it my duty to send as many men as I could there, who were paid by the city, and the others had to be paid by the railroad company, as I told you, but all the men we had in July was nine men.

Q. Did you send any of those nine men?

A. Oh, yes; McGovern and White and some more of them—I am a little mixed; and there was another order given for men as I understand. I started Mr. Davis to get them, but on that I am not so clear—I am a little mixed on that; Mr. Davis, however, can tell. He told me he met me on Fifth avenue and told me an order had come for more men, and I started then from Fifth avenue to get them.

Q. Did you receive any word from Mr. Watt after he left you with the ten police?

A. Directly from Mr. Watt?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. No; not a word.

Q. Did you receive any telegram from him calling for fifteen more men or twenty-five more men?

A. I didn't receive anything of the kind; but I guess that must be the word Mr. Davis speaks about when he says he met me on Fifth avenue, and I told him to get the men.

Q. Didn't your clerks or any of your subordinates notify you that such a telegram had been received from Mr. Watt?

A. I don't know what Mr. Davis says he told me on Fifth avenue.

Q. For fifty men?

A. No, sir; I took supper at Castle Shannon. I left at a quarter to five, and came back at eight, and then there were some persons from the Pennsylvania had been there for policemen, and the Pennsylvania railroad got all the policemen they wanted. They got so many that they sent back word that they did not want any more.

Q. Did they send any such word to you personally?

A. No; I can prove it.

Q. I want just what they said about—the next that took place between you and the officers?

A. I got no communication directly from the officers of the Pennsylvania, from the time Mr. Watt had been there in the forenoon.

Q. Did you receive any telegram from Mr. Watt calling for fifty police?

A. I didn't.

Q. Were you notified by your clerks or subordinates that such a telegram had been received at your office?

A. Not in the shape you put it.

Q. Did you see Mr. Watt after he left with the ten men?

A. No, sir; I don't think that I did. I have no recollection of it whatever. I don't believe I did.

Q. Where were you from eight o'clock Thursday night, during the balance of the night?

A. I was at the office, and in the neighborhood.

Q. Were any reports made to you during the night, from the policemen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In regard to the situation?

A. Yes; that everything was quiet.

Q. From what men?

A. I cannot name them, but I can bring the men here who were there to testify. Let me tell you what the police told me—the men that were out there.

Q. It is hearsay evidence. I think it is hardly proper?

A. Hear my statement, then, for your own guidance.

Q. I understand you to say that you didn't receive any dispatch from Mr. Watt, calling for fifty men, nor it was not communicated about in that form?

A. No, sir; it was not. Nothing of that kind occurred. He may have sent a dispatch, but I think I can very conscientiously affirm that I never saw it.

Q. Do you allow your clerks to act upon intelligence received at the office, without instructions from you?

A. Most undoubtedly. When I am away a riot or disturbance ought not to be going along until I come back. They know the general rules I act upon.

Q. Communications, in the shape of letters and dispatches, are they placed on file in your office, when received in your absence?

A. No, sir; not placed on file at any time. They are attended to and thrown away.

Q. Attended to by your clerks?

A. Yes; the chief of police and the clerks. If I am up in the Eleventh ward, they would have to wait an hour and a half until I got down.

Q. If a dispatch was received at your office, notifying you of a disturbance in one part of the city, and you are in another part of the city?

A. It would be attended to.

Q. It would be attended to without notifying you of the fact?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have telegraphic communications to all parts of the city, I suppose—stations?

A. With the station-house. We have got one station-house in the Thirty-sixth ward, Thirtieth ward, one in the Twenty-first, and one in the Second, or rather the telegraph is in the Third, one in the Eleventh, one in the Twelfth, and one in the Fourteenth, one in the Seventeenth, and one in the Nineteenth.

Q. Did you receive any reports during the night—Thursday night?

A. Yes; and everything was quiet.

Q. What officer had charge of that part of the city near Twenty-eighth street—what police officer?

A. Lieutenant Coates had.

Q. Did you receive any reports from him during the night?

A. I do not know that I did.

Q. Were there any affidavits made before you against parties—against any disorderly conduct?

A. There was on Friday forenoon.

Q. Did you issue warrants for that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. For how many?

A. Well, I guess there was eight or nine, maybe more—I have forgotten.

Q. In whose hands were those warrants placed to execute?

A. I cannot tell distinctly, but I think it was in the hands of Mr. McGovern.

Q. Did he execute the warrants? What instructions did you give him about that?

A. I told him that in consequence of the calling out of the soldiers that the public mind excited, and it would be very dangerous to act as we usually acted, and for him to be exceedingly cautious, and cause no disturbance.

Q. When you placed the warrants in his hands, what instructions did you give him?

A. That is what I gave him.

Q. Had the soldiers been called out?

A. Yes; I was perfectly astonished when I took up the newspapers. Here was a whole lot of telegraphic dispatches, that had been flying from one end of the State to the other.

Q. On Thursday morning or Friday morning?

A. On Friday morning.

Q. You did not tell him to make the arrests?

A. Absolutely?

Q. Yes?

A. No, sir; I knew too much for that. The policemen at any time create a riot in the street by going at it brashly, and after the soldiers were in it, I thought it very dangerous.

Q. Why?

A. Because they were under the control of men who were rather of the narrow gauge pattern, about 2×3.

They were men who knew no law but the law of force, and had no knowledge that truculent defiance always begets truculent defiance. Had the force been in the hands of men who thought with Coleridge, when he said:

"He prayeth well who loveth well, Both man, and bird, and beast."

Had it been in the hands of men, who had any idea like Coleridge, there would not have been a life lost, nor a dollar of property destroyed, in my deliberate opinion.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You speak of those two or three, do you allude to the military now?

A. I allude to the men assuming charge—that had control of the force after I was displaced by the military and counsel.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you not have charge of these in the beginning of the riot or disturbance?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?

A. Because Mr. Watt came over and asked for ten men, and they were given to him.

Q. He asked you to go out, didn't he?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You refused?

A. I did, for the reason that I could see no reason from anything he said that the mayor should start out to take charge of ten men, and control it—it must have been a very small affair.