REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE Railroad Riots IN JULY, 1877. (continued 16)

Q. Was not the train uncoupled? When they attempted to start that train, didn't they rush on and uncouple the cars?

A. I guess you are talking about the trains they attempted to run early in the morning, before the police came there. That is what I think. It was on that occasion that Mr. Watt came down after the ten policemen.

Q. Didn't Mr. Watt tell you of the circumstances?

A. I suppose he did.

Q. Didn't you have knowledge then that there had been a riot, or, at least, a disorderly crowd there, and wasn't it your duty then to protect those people?

A. And for the purpose of doing that, Mr. Watt came and asked for a certain number of policemen—for what he thought was sufficient—and they were soon there?

Q. And still you allowed that crowd to remain there?

A. That is not a fair way to put it.

Q. I want to get at the reasons that actuated you?

A. I didn't know anything of the nature of that crowd. I knew nothing more at the time than that Mr. Watt wanted ten men, and ten men was sufficient to control it. That was sufficient. They were there, and there was only one breach of the peace, and that man was arrested, and when this train, between three and four o'clock, undertook to be run out, it could have been run out.

Q. Did the crowd intimidate the engineer in any way, do you know?

A. I understood the police that he was not intimidated—that he could have gone out with the train, if he thought proper. They were there to protect him in so doing. They told me he could have gone out, if he had chosen. I don't know who he is, anything about him. I guess it was the last effort made to run a train out.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you consider at any time until the military arrived that the crowd that assembled there was an illegal crowd?

A. Oh, no; I didn't think it amounted to shucks.

Q. You consider there was no riot or mob nor illegal assemblage at any time before the military arrived?

A. I knew that there were men in a crowd.

Q. Answer that question now. You consider there was no illegal assemblage, mob, or riot previous to the arrival of the military?

A. I think that in the ordinary acceptation of the word mob and riot, there was no mob and riot previous to the military coming there.

Q. Or illegal assemblage of people?

A. I think any persons that go on the Pennsylvania Railroad Company's ground, don't obey their lawful orders and proper orders, that it is an unlawful assemblage.

Q. Was there any illegal assemblage?

A. I have no doubt there was.

Q. Were you aware of that?

A. I must have been aware. It could not have been otherwise.

Q. Did you make any efforts to disperse them?

A. Yes; I gave the Pennsylvania Railroad Company all the police they asked for.

Q. Did you drive them off?

A. I don't think they were driven off, but the Pennsylvania railroad got all the police they asked for.

Q. You didn't give them the officer they asked for?

A. In asking for me?

Q. Yes; you?

A. No; I was not going up to head ten policemen.

Q. You required them to pay the police also?

A. No, sir; you put your statement too broad. These policemen—we took what policemen we could belonging to the city and filled up with the others who were not in the pay of the city.

Q. And those others were paid?

A. I think there must have been about twenty-nine policemen outside of such of the city folks as were considered.

Q. The extras were paid off by the Pennsylvania railroad?

A. Yes; they were paid by them.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You didn't call on any of the night force to go at that time?

A. No, sir; we couldn't do that. Nothing but the most imperative necessity would require that. We only had patrolmen to cover twenty-seven square miles. At the riot on Saturday night every man was called in from the first, second, fourth, seventh, eighth, and ninth districts; they were left entirely unprotected.

At this point the committee adjourned until this afternoon, at two o'clock.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

Pittsburgh, Friday, February 22, 1878.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, in the orphans' court room at three o'clock, P.M., Mr. Lindsey in the chair.

All members present.

R. L. Hamilton, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. 810 Penn avenue.

Q. What is your business?

A. I am a clerk for the water-works of the city of Pittsburgh—clerk of the water-works. I believe it is called, sometimes, clerk of the water extension committee.

Q. How long have you held that position?

A. I have held the position of clerk of the water-works since February, 1876—February 4, I believe.

Q. Where is your office?

A. City hall. Third floor of the city hall. Municipal hall as it is called.

Q. State whether you were at or in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street, on Saturday the 21st day of July?

A. I was.

Q. When the firing occurred?

A. I was in the vicinity at the time of the firing.

Q. Where were you—what was your position?

A. I can hardly understand the question.

Q. Where were you in relation to where the troops stood—explain the situation you occupied?

A. At the time of the firing I was running.

Q. Which direction?

A. Well, towards Liberty street and Twenty-ninth street, to get a brick house between me and the troops.

Q. Go on, and relate what you saw, commencing at the time you arrived at, or in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street?

A. To explain the question, there was a meeting of the water committee called for Monday evening, and some two or three members of the water committee lived out in that direction. I started at that notice, and at two o'clock I arrived at Twenty-eighth street. I went up Twenty-eighth street to the Pennsylvania railroad tracks, and when there, I was informed that the Philadelphia troops were about to come out, and I waited to see them until sometime after four o'clock. These troops came out headed by the sheriff and several citizens of Pittsburgh, and after they had formed themselves in position, the sheriff commenced speaking to the crowd, and I couldn't hear what he was saying from where I was standing, and I got on a coal truck where I thought I could hear what he was saying. When I was on this truck, one company of the Philadelphia troops—the troops, at that time, were formed in two lines facing the hill, that is, the line next me was facing the hill. I wouldn't say positively about the line nearest the hill. I was near the round-house. There was one company of the Philadelphia troops brought up in single rank, they marched up very quietly until they got to the switch below Twenty-eighth street. They were met by the crowd, that is, a crowd of men that refused to go any further. There were orders given very quietly, and another company, with black plumes on their hats, came up, and this first company was put in double rank. They tried to force the crowd back, and the order was given to charge bayonets. The officers of the Philadelphia troops were in the rear of those two companies, they were charged up on the track, and after sometime, there was an order given to fire by the different officers of the Philadelphia troops.

Q. I wish you would now repeat what you said, beginning with the order which was given to charge bayonets, commencing about there, and repeat what you said?

A. After the second company had been brought up—the company with dark plumes on their hats, I cannot tell what the uniform was—after that, there was an order given to charge bayonets, and it was a very short time after this order to charge bayonets—that was only given to the two companies, the other files were standing, the rest of the Philadelphia troops were standing in two lines on each side of the railroad track—after that order given to charge bayonets, almost immediately, I heard the command given by several officers of Philadelphia companies, that is, I suppose they were from Philadelphia. I don't know them personally, but from their uniform, and from the position in which they were. The order to fire was given by several men in the uniform of officers of that regiment.

Q. Where did you stand during this time?

A. I stood on a truck loaded with coal. The left of the railroad tracks going out almost immediately in front of the sand-house of the Pennsylvania railroad, this side of Twenty-eighth street.

Q. How far from the tracks?

A. I could have stooped down and touched three of the militia with my hands, by stooping.

Q. How far were you from them at the time the order to charge bayonets was given?

A. I was in the same position. I had not left that position from the time I got up there to see what was said by the sheriff until I heard the order given.

Q. What officers gave the order to charge bayonets?

A. I couldn't say. I heard, but I couldn't say how it was given. The orders at that time were given very low. It was not to the whole regiment.

Q. From what direction did the order come?

A. Right from the rear of the two companies that were marched up the track, and they were not charging when the order was given.

Q. How did they have their arms when the order to charge bayonets was given?

A. The two companies, I think the whole of them, were at carry arms, from what I know of the present tactics.

Q. Were any of them at arms port?

A. Some of them in the charging parties had their guns at arms port—some of the charging party.

Q. Did you hear that command given?

A. No, sir; I didn't hear that command given, but I know now that some of them had their guns at arms port, because I remember the guns being in the position of arms port—some of them. A party directly in front of me were at carry arms.

Q. They were standing still?

A. Yes. They were in line. I think they were at a carry, so far as I can remember. I cannot swear positively as to that.

Q. When you heard the command given to charge bayonets, how close were those two companies to the mob?

A. Just as close as they could get.

Q. And the mob resisted them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When the order was given to charge bayonets, did the two companies obey the order.

A. Part of them did. I could see them lunge with their bayonets—try to force them back.

Q. Did the crowd resist that charge?

A. Some of them did; yes, sir.

Q. And attempted to pull——

A. I heard parties say that if they would let them out in any way, they would be glad to do so. It was the crowd back of them that was holding them in. Others resisted.

Q. Did they try to pull the bayonets off the guns?

A. I saw them wrenching with the guns. Saw them wrenching the guns, and heard remarks made by different parties in front of the party charging bayonets that if they would give them room to get back they didn't want to interfere. I heard these remarks made from where I was.

Q. And the command to fire, you say, was given by captains?

A. I don't know about captains. I say officers of the Philadelphia companies that the word "fire" was given by.

Q. By officers of companies?

A. Company officers is what I say the word was given by.

Q. And not by field officers?

A. I wouldn't know that the field officers were with that regiment, but I knew from the position——

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. You mean from the position they occupied, they were company officers?

A. I suppose they were company officers. They were in the rear of the two ranks facing me.

Q. Had any stones and missiles been thrown at the soldiers before the command to charge bayonets was given?

A. I cannot say positively as to before the command to charge bayonets was given.

Q. Were any thrown at the troops before the command to fire was given? Were there any shots fired by the crowd before the command to fire was given?

A. Not that I either saw or heard—not before the command to fire.

Q. Missiles had been thrown?

A. They had been thrown—I saw them thrown.

Q. Were any of the soldiers hurt?

A. Not that I saw. I saw one of the officers—I supposed to be a field officer—saw him hit, and it staggered him, but he didn't seem to be hurt—kind of shoved him to one side—it seemed to be a piece of a board or piece of wood—something like a block of wood—it was thrown from the hill side, and hit one of the officers. I saw that myself—not thrown from the hill side, but from what they call the watch-box—it is a watch-box. It was thrown from the back of that by a boy.

Q. You saw the boy?

A. It was a young fellow about sixteen or seventeen years of age, from what I could judge from his appearance.

Q. When the firing commenced, you ran?

A. I ran before the firing commenced. I was back of what they call the Hill house.

Q. Did you run before the command was given?

A. No, sir; I didn't. Whenever I heard the command given, I thought I had no business there, and I got out of the road, that is one thing that made me so positive the command was given. My idea of getting out of the road was on account of that command to fire.

Q. In what words—was there more than one command?

A. There was no more than one command. The word fire was given by different men in uniform. They were standing not in the rear, but in front of the line of militia that was right in front of me. I heard that from more than one voice.

Q. In what words was the command given?

A. The command I speak of as given by those parties, was the word "fire."

Q. Addressed to any particular person?

A. Not by those parties—just "fire."

Q. How do you know who gave that command?

A. I could hear them; I don't suppose I was six feet from some of them.

Q. Could you pick out the men who gave the command?

A. That gave the word fire?

Q. Yes?

A. No, sir; I couldn't.

Q. Then you don't know who it was that gave the command?

A. That gave these commands? No, sir.

Q. You say it came from officers in command of a company?

A. It came from what I supposed by the position they held—they were strangers to me.

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. Couldn't you distinguish the officers from the private?

A. I thought I could. It was what I consider officers. I didn't pay that much attention. I had no idea there was going to be such a command given, and paid no attention to officers nor privates. These parties had no guns. Whether they were captains or lieutenants, or what, I couldn't say.

Q. You wouldn't pretend to say what man it was gave the command, or pick out the man?

A. That gave this command I speak of? No, sir.

Q. You could only tell the direction in which the words came?

A. If they had been Pittsburgh troops had been there, I suppose I could have told every man of them. I could not point out the men if they were brought before me now.

Q. Could you see the man who uttered the words?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So as to pick him out?

A. I could, provided I had seen enough of the man. I couldn't remember him now. I believe if I could see the man that I first heard these words "fire" from; if I would have seen him the next morning, I could point him out. I don't remember of having seen him since, and I don't know that I could point him out if he was here.

Q. How was he dressed?

A. Dressed in a gray uniform? He was in full uniform, with gold lace on it.

Q. What rank did his uniform indicate?

A. I didn't pay that much attention to him to find out what his rank was. The militia uniform is so badly mixed, I could hardly tell what the man's rank would be. The uniform seemed to be about the same in all the officers. I didn't pay any attention to these troops as regards that.

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. Had he a plume, the same as the privates?

A. I couldn't say.

Q. Didn't notice?

A. No, sir.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. How many officers did you hear give this command to fire?

A. I couldn't say exactly. I suppose seven or eight.

Q. All gave the command to fire?

A. Yes, sir; that is, I heard it in that many different voices; I couldn't say how many officers, but in that many different voices.

Q. Not at one and the same time?

A. Not at one and the same time.

Q. Did any other words precede the word "fire?"

A. Not by the officers I speak of.

Q. Nothing but simply "fire?"

A. Simply "fire."

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You are sure they didn't say not to fire, and you only heard the word "fire?"

A. I am sure of the parties I speak of.

Q. That they were not cautioning their men not to fire on the crowd?

A. No, sir; I am sure of that.

Q. Couldn't you have made a mistake, and only heard the last word?

A. Not from the position I was. The parties may have been mistaken in regard to where they got their order.

Q. When they were ordered to charge bayonets, what was the command given to charge bayonets?

A. As I spoke before, the command was given, that I could hear the command but couldn't hear what was said to the troops. It was given to two companies in a low tone of voice, but what I understood to be "charge bayonets," and a charge bayonets was immediately made after this order. It was in a low tone of voice.

Q. Not as a military officer ought to give a command?

A. Not as I would suppose a military officer should give a command. I am not posted in regard to how they should give it.

Q. He didn't say it as though he meant business?

A. It looked very much like it.

Q. He gave it in a low tone of voice?

A. Just gave it in a low tone of voice to those two companies—it was a command to those two companies.

Q. When he gave the command fire, did he speak it distinctly as though he meant exactly what he said?

A. Who are you speaking of?

Q. The officers that gave the command?

A. Yes; they spoke it distinctly.

Q. As though they meant exactly what they said?

A. I supposed from that they meant it, that is the reason I got out of the road. I thought they meant what they said.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What position did those officers occupy when this command to fire was given. The officers I speak of giving the word "fire?"

A. They were in front of the command.

Q. In front of the rank?

A. In front of the rank. There was no room for them in place else.

Q. You are sure they were in front of the rank?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Seven or eight of them, you say?

A. If you will allow me to explain about the officers. Six, seven, or eight. There was two ranks of troops, stretching from the switch at Twenty-eighth street down the track in two ranks, and those two companies were at the upper end. What I supposed to be the general officers were in the rear of those two officers, and the other officers were scattered down along. There was two lines. There was seven or eight not scattered along, because they were over near to what I considered to be the generals.

Q. They were in front of the rank?

A. The line was facing this way. [Illustrating.] There was no officers outside of this rank [indicating] that I could see, and there was no room in this rank, because here is a truck—a coal truck. I stood from where I could stoop down and touch the soldiers.

Q. Wouldn't you suppose this was a pretty bad place for an officer to stand?

A. I should think it was.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. These officers stood between the mob and their men?

A. No, sir.

Q. They were behind the men?

A. What I consider the mob was at the switch at Twenty-eighth street. That was the switch here. [Illustrating.] The Philadelphia troops were formed in two ranks. There was the two companies coming up here, [indicating,] one in single file, and when they got to the switch the men stopped them. They were in single line. This company was brought up between the two lines, forcing every person out, keeping that part of the track clear. They succeeded until they got to this switch. When they got to the switch one company was not successful in driving them back.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You said the officers were in front of the men, did you mean those men that were standing in line? The officers were in front of them, was the ones you speak of?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was these officers gave the command to fire?

A. These officers I was speaking of.

Q. It was not the men that were marching up to clear the crowd—I mean marching towards the crowd?

A. It was not those officers I heard.

Q. It was the bystanders? Those officers had nothing to do with those companies?

A. No, sir; not with those two companies up the track—no, sir.

Q. Did the companies commanded by the officers who gave the command, fire?

A. I didn't wait to see.

Q. You don't know that they did fire?

A. Not from my own knowledge, but from the parties wounded and killed, I would suppose so.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. How long after the command was given did you hear the firing?

A. I got back of this house before I heard any firing.

Q. What distance was you from the crowd, where you stood, when the command was given, when the firing began?

A. I suppose I would be a distance about forty yards, before I heard any firing.

Q. After the command to fire was given, you retreated to the oil-house?

A. I got the oil-house between me and the Philadelphia troops.

Q. How far was that from where you stood when the command was given?

A. I think it was forty yards from where I stood on the track.

Q. How long after you got to the oil-house, did you hear the firing?

A. I could hardly tell—it was a very short time. I don't think you could count a minute.

Q. You think you were not behind the oil-house one minute before the firing began?

A. Until I heard the firing.

Q. You started as soon as ever you heard the command to fire?

A. Just as soon as I could get off the track. As soon as I heard the command "fire," I commenced my way back in this crowd on the track, just as quick as I could get off and run.

Q. About how long did it take you to get through that crowd and behind the oil-house?

A. Didn't take me very long. I was not very long getting there, I know that.

Q. A minute?

A. I do not think I was a minute getting off the track. I was over a minute getting behind the oil-house.

Q. You were there not over a minute before you heard the firing?

A. I am sure of that.

Q. Do you think it was two minutes after the order to fire was given, before the firing began?

A. I think so; yes, sir.

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. Where did these stones and missiles come from?

A. The things I saw thrown were right from back of what we call a switch-tender's shanty. There is a little shanty we call the switch-tender's shanty. It was parties standing back of that—I could see it from where I was standing—most of them that were thrown.

Q. How much of a shower of stones was it?

A. There was no shower. There was not even a slight storm. It was not what I would call a shower of stones.

Q. Only two or three stones thrown?

A. There might have been—I guess I saw six or seven. There were lumps of mud and pieces of wood. I do not think I saw a stone. I did see mud—that is, hard mud seemed to be taken from the side of the hill.

Q. Did you see one of those soldiers fall, in the ranks that marched down there?

A. Yes, sir; there was one of them fell, and they picked him up, and took him into the hospital grounds. He was sun-struck, or something of that kind.

Q. How do you know he was sun-struck?

A. That is what some of his comrades claimed. Before they got to Twenty-eighth street this man dropped. He seemed to be a Jew, from his looks. The boys used the expression: "Let the damned Jew lay there." The railroaders got water for him, and bathed him.

Q. Have you ever told anybody that you heard the firing there, and heard the command given to fire?

A. I was a witness in the criminal court, in the murder case against General Pearson.

Q. Have you told anybody outside that you heard the command to fire given?

A. I believe I did.

Q. Have you told persons you heard General Pearson give the command to fire?

A. Not in direct words.

Q. Have you not stated several times, on the street corners, to different parties, that you heard General Pearson give the command to fire?

A. No, sir; I do not think I ever did—not in those words.

Q. Did you ever state to anybody that you had heard the commanders of companies give the command to fire, before stating it here?

A. I do not know. I forget exactly just what words my testimony was in the court.

Q. I am not asking you what testimony you gave in the court. Have you ever stated to any person before to-day, outside of the court, or anywhere, that you heard officers of companies give the command to fire?

A. I believe I have. Yes, sir.

Q. And you have stated that you heard General Pearson give the command to fire?

A. Not in those words.

Q. What do you mean by "Not in those words?"

A. I think the order to fire emanated from General Pearson, but I never said, in direct words, that General Pearson gave the order to fire.

Q. It was only a supposition of yours?

A. No; it was from the remark that I have sworn—I heard General Pearson give this—my remark was that General Pearson had turned around to other officers, with whom I am not acquainted, and used the expression, "Your men to fire;" but I did not say he had coupled those words with "Order your men to fire."

Q. Did you hear him say those words?

A. I have sworn. Yes, sir.

Q. To whom?

A. As I told you, I was not acquainted with the officers to whom he addressed himself. He was speaking to parties in gray uniform. He was standing almost immediately in his rear.

Q. He said, "Your men to fire?"

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How far were you from him?

A. I suppose I would be—I could hardly judge the distance—I would take it to be about ten feet or so.

Q. Did he speak it in a low tone?

A. It was not very loud. It was not a low tone.

Q. Was there a good deal of noise and confusion about at that time?

A. Oh, considerable, just in certain localities.

Q. The crowd was boisterous, were they not?

A. To a certain extent.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You did not hear any command given to fire, positively, by General Pearson?

A. No, sir; I never said so.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. How do you account for the long interval of time intervening between the command to fire and the firing.

A. I could not say.

Q. Did they load after the command to fire was given?

A. I could not say.

Q. Did you see them load?

A. No, sir; I did not see them fire.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. There was nothing preparatory at all, to this word fire.

A. No, sir; I thought it very strange myself, at the time the command to fire was given. They were not even ready.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You say you heard General Pearson speak to those officers, and said something about firing. You do not know whether he said not allow the men to fire, or to fire?

A. No, sir.

Q. How long after he made this remark to those officers did the command to fire come from those officers, and did it come from those same officers he was talking to?

A. I could not say whether it came from the same officers he was talking to. There were about fifteen or twenty of them in the crowd. I cannot say who he was addressing. It was started from that crowd, and carried by others still further down the line.

Q. How long after that was that order given to fire?

A. I do not think it was a minute. I cannot recollect the time.

Q. How far was General Pearson from the place when he had this conversation with those officers—how far was he from the position where those officers did give the command to fire?

A. I can hardly know.

Q. The word passed along the line?

A. It was passed by parties in front.

Q. How far did it pass until it got to those officers that did give the command?

A. It did not pass any further than, I suppose, seven or eight feet.

Q. The officers were pretty thick, were they not?

A. Yes, sir; very thick.

By Mr. Means:

Q. General Pearson appeared to stand at the head of the column?

A. He stood in the rear of the two companies that were charging up the track between the two lines and the side of the track.

Q. It appears from your testimony that the firing was sometime after the command to fire was given.

A. Yes; it was sometime. I had time enough to get away.

Q. Do you think that this firing was in consequence of the order to fire?

A. I did not wait to see anything about that. As soon as I heard the word "fire," I thought that was enough for me.

Q. Have you ever had any military experience in the army?

A. No, sir; never in the army. I served two or three years in the militia.

Q. Ever practiced firing any in the militia?

A. Some little.

Q. How long after the command to fire was given do you discharge your piece?

A. If in position to fire, we generally pulled as quick as we could get it off.

Q. When this firing began, was it a volley, or was it a scattering fire?

A. It was kind of mixed, I thought. I did not think it was what I considered a volley from a number of men that were present.

Q. Was it a scattering fire that lasted some little time?

A. The firing was kept up. Scattering fire was kept up for three or four minutes.

Q. The first fire?

A. The first volley, though not what I consider a volley from the number of men that were present. It sounded more like a volley than a scattering fire—the first fire. After that it was a scattering fire.

Q. There appeared to be a number of simultaneous discharges of muskets?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there any one else present there where you stood that heard and saw what you said, or was likely to see and hear?

A. There were plenty there that could have seen.

Q. Any one that you know?

A. No, sir: no person that I know. I was not paying much attention to who was standing around me. No person that I knew of was in that locality at that time.

Q. Did you see the arms loaded at any time?

A. No, sir.

J. G. McConnell, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. I reside in the Nineteenth ward, city of Pittsburgh.

Q. What is your profession?

A. Practicing law.

Q. State whether you were at or in the vicinity of the elevator on the 22d of July last, about the time it was burned?

A. I was, sir.

Q. What time did you arrive at that place?

A. I arrived there just about the time that the fire was taking hold of the elevator.

Q. Just about the time the fire was taking hold of the elevator?

A. Just about the time the inside of the elevator——

Q. Were there any policemen there at the time?

A. No, sir; I did not see any.

Q. Did any come there?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Did you send for any?

A. Not at that time, sir.

Q. Afterwards did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see who set the elevator on fire?

A. I did not.

Q. And how it caught?

A. No, sir; but after the elevator was on fire. The person who gave you that information has not given you the correct information. After the elevator was on fire some little time, I was standing on Eleventh street, probably halfway between Penn and Liberty. While standing there, a man came up alongside of me and stood there. I did not say anything, and directly there was another man joined him. The first one was a short thick-set man, with a light colored moustache and imperial and light hair; a man I should say weighing about one hundred and sixty-five pounds, probably about five feet eight inches in height. The person who joined him was somewhat taller, nearly six feet in height, and they got into a conversation. They were evidently well acquainted with each other; and then the short thick man made a remark. Says he, "The elevator makes a very handsome fire." I spoke up and said I thought it was a very great shame and outrage that property should be destroyed, and this man turned around and said, "What is it your business?" I told him it was my business to a certain extent, as I was solicitor for the elevator company. I said to him that I thought the firemen ought to turn their hose on it. I then went to see Mr. Evans, and asked him if he could turn the hose on, and he informed me that it was impossible to do so. He had been deterred by the mob, and they had cut his hose, or threatened to cut his hose, and some man had put a revolver to his head; that he had two streams on, but had to take them off. I walked down pretty close to Penn avenue and these two men were still standing there. I stopped opposite them and they were still in conversation. The short thick-set man turned around to the other one and in a whisper made this remark to him, "Has the Pan Handle bridge been set fire to yet?" The other one says, "No, I think not." He said, "Somebody ought to send a party to do that;" and I then, left and went down towards Wayne street, went down to the river, went down the river, came up towards Fifth avenue, and on Thursday or Friday subsequent to the destruction of the elevator, on my way out home, in the evening, about half past four o'clock, passing the ruins of the Union Depot hotel, I saw this man standing there—this short thick-set man. There was a policeman standing on the corner. I went up to the policeman and pointed this man out and said, "That man, I think, was a ring leader in the riot. If you will arrest him, I will make information against him." The policeman did not reply, but walked up towards the avenue.

Q. Do you know the policeman?

A. No, sir; I did not take notice of his number.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you see the grain elevator set on fire?

A. No, sir; I was standing out in front, and from where I stood the burning apparently began at the back side, towards the Pan Handle side of the road, towards the Washington street bridge.

Q. How many policemen did you see around the vicinity at that time?

A. Did not see any.

Q. The only one you saw was on this bridge?

A. I did not see any at all that day—that evening.

Q. When was it you saw this policeman?

A. Thursday or Friday, subsequent to the destruction.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you make any report of the policeman who refused?

A. No, sir; only to the officers of the elevator company.

Q. Did they make any effort to find out who the policeman was, afterwards?

A. I do not know, sir—that is, I made no official report to the company. I just reported it to one or two of the officers, and their instructions were, if I recognized the party, to report it, and if I recognized the party I saw on Monday evening to report it.

Q. You made no report of that policeman to the mayor of his refusal to act?

A. No, sir; if I had known his number I certainly should; but I did not know his number.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You did not hear enough of the conversation between those men, to find out whether there was an organization?

A. None, whatever. I did not hear sufficient of that. I believe that is all the conversation I heard in regard to the matter. There was a remark made that rather implied I had better get out of the way, and I stood over by the engine.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. These men were both strangers to you, the short man and the large one?

A. They were men who were working. I evidently took them to be mill men about the city here. I do not think they were strangers in the city at all, sir.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were they railroad men?

A. I do not think so. I could not judge from their appearance. Just from their appearance, I took them to be men working about some of the mills or about some heavy employment in the city. I judged that more from their general appearance and from their hands. I noticed one man put up his fist. He had a very large heavy fist, and it looked like a work-man's fist.

Q. That was Thursday or Friday subsequent to the burning, that you met this other man?

A. Yes; Thursday or Friday?

Q. What time of day was it you met him?

A. I think it was about half past four in the afternoon. I left my office to go home, and it took me, I suppose, eight or nine minutes to walk up to where the Union Depot hotel stood at that time. Probably I stood around there ten minutes looking at the ruins, and it was just as I was moving off—probably it was about five o'clock.

Doctor James B. Murdock, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Please state where you reside?

A. I reside on Centre avenue, No. 99. Up over the hill from the railroad—over that side of the hill—back from it.

Q. A practicing physician in the city of Pittsburgh?

A. Practicing physician and surgeon.

Q. State what knowledge you have of the late riots?

A. When I heard I was to be subpœnaed here, I wrote down what I know about it, and perhaps that would be the quickest way of telling. My first knowledge of the riot was on the evening of the day of the riot, the 21st of July, about half past five o'clock in the afternoon, when I was returning to my office from my calls, and one of my neighbors came running to me in a hurried manner, and stated that a little boy had been shot and needed my services. I accompanied the messenger to a drug store in the vicinity of my house, and on my way there this messenger informed me how it happened, and told me the boy had been sitting on the hill side above the Twenty-eighth street crossing, and that he also was there, and that there was a volley of musketry fired from the soldiers, who were down on the railroad track, and that the little boy had screamed out——

Q. I hardly think this comes within the scope of our investigation, unless you can give us the number of persons killed and wounded. That might be within the scope of our investigation; but testimony as to the persons that were wounded is hardly within the scope of our investigation?

A. I do not know what I was subpœnaed here for. I was one of the surgeons in charge of the wounded at the West Pennsylvania hospital.

Q. State the number that were brought there wounded?

A. There were seven wounded men brought there that evening.

Q. How many soldiers?

A. Two soldiers. One of them wounded with a stone and the other sun-struck.

Q. Who were the other parties?

A. I do not know who they were. They were citizens—I do not know whether they were citizens or not. They were strangers to me.

Q. Do you know the number that were killed in that fire?

A. No, sir; I do not.

Q. You know nothing, I suppose, as to the wounded, except those that were brought to the West Penn Hospital?

A. Only just this little boy. I saw from there the attack on the round-house during the night.

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. Did you see the firing of the cars when it commenced?

A. I saw the whole of that attack.

Q. You might give us a description of that?

A. The grade is down from Thirty-third to Twenty-eighth, and the cars ran from their own gravity. When they were let go they would run. The first car came down between ten and eleven, and it was run down the grade, and when it got opposite the round-house it seemed to run off the track. You could observe it from the hospital grounds. Soon after that a whole train of cars, loaded with coke, came down the track, and struck this first one. We could hear the collision. It stopped near the round-house. They continued the passing down of fired cars from the vicinity of Lawrenceville, until I left the hospital, about two o'clock in the morning, and the cars were burning there, and the sand-house was then on fire, when I left.

Q. From your position you could not see who done the firing?

A. No, sir; but I could see in front of the hospital grounds when a car would stop, as it sometimes would in its descent, there would be people take hold of it, and push it on down towards the round-house. I observe that those who did that pushing were nearly all boys, fourteen to sixteen or seventeen years of age.

Q. Twenty-five engaged in it?

A. I do not think I saw over twenty-five at this place. I could not see where the cars were started from, I could see them just as they were passing the hospital grounds.

Q. How large a crowd was gathered there?

A. On my way to the hospital there was an immense crowd. I had to go through Liberty street, but just at the Twenty-eighth street crossing and down on the track, as you may say, Twenty-eighth to Twenty-ninth street, there was not a hundred people visible. There were a great many on the side hill looking down.

Q. Were you present on Sunday?

A. Yes, sir. I saw the burning of the Union depot and the elevator. There is one circumstance that I, perhaps, might state to the committee if it is of interest. I do not know that it is, though. On my way around through the city, I saw a great deal of the plunder being carried off, and on Gazzam's hill Sunday morning, at eleven o'clock, I saw a boy some twelve years of age who seemed to be gazing over in the direction of the railroad. I asked him what he was looking at. He said that the round-house had been burned last night and that the depot and the elevator was going to be burned to-night. I asked him how he knew that. He said his father had told him he had been out all last night was going out to-night.

Q. Did you ascertain who he was?

A. No, sir; I did not. I did not think anything of it at the time. I did not think anything of it. When it occurred I remembered then of that statement.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you notice any firing by the mob, musketry or pistols, at the troops in the round-house?

A. No, sir; I did not see any.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You do not know whether this boy's father was an employé of the Pennsylvania railroad or not, that told you that the elevator and the other buildings were to be burned?

A. No, sir; the boy was in a part of the city where it would not be likely that an employé of the company would live.

Q. You do not know who the boy was?

A. No, sir; did not pay enough attention to it at that time.

J. R. McCune, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. In the Fourteenth ward, this city.

Q. What is your business?

A. I am president of the Union National Bank.

Q. Were you at the scene of the riots at any time during their progress?

A. I saw the burning—partly saw it on Sunday for the first. I was not at the scene of the riots prior to Sunday, and know very little or most nothing of my own knowledge—prior to Sunday.

Q. You may state what efforts you made in connection with others to suppress the riot on Sunday, and stop the pillaging and plundering?

A. I came down town on Sunday morning in conference with some other citizens, and thought it desirable to call a meeting of citizens. I then learned for the first time that the troops had left the city, and there were placards posted on the bulletin boards calling a meeting of citizens, I think, at twelve o'clock. I participated in that meeting, and was appointed on a committee to take such action as was deemed advisable. The committee was a large one, and adjourned to the council chamber, and it was there determined to appoint a sub-committee to visit the scene of destruction, and take whatever action seemed judicious. I think our duties were not restricted. I went with that committee, but cannot say that we effected much of anything. I believe that has been detailed to you before how the committee went up there, and got on a platform of a car, and Bishop Tuigg undertook to address the audience.

Q. Doctor Scovill's testimony in regard to that was correct?

A. So far as I saw. The doctor was immediately along side of me on the platform of the car. After leaving, there the committee was divided, and went to different points, one of which being to ascertain, if possible, if the railroad strikers were actively engaged in this burning, and we endeavored to hunt up the railroad men. We went up as far as Twentieth street, and interviewed railroad men wherever we could find them. They, I believe, universally disclaimed all participation in the riot. That is in the burning.

Q. In the destruction of property?

A. In the destruction of property. That was a point we inquired into particularly.

Q. Did they state who was engaged in the destruction of property?

A. My recollection is that they generally professed not to know. They promised to coöperate with us in efforts to stop the burning.

Q. Did they do that—did they coöperate?

A. I don't know how much they did in that direction. There was some of them came down to attend the meeting, and this committee reported to an adjourned meeting that was to be held, I think, at four o'clock in the afternoon. The committee returned, and stated briefly what had been done and the condition of affairs, and I think we suggested that there would be a large increase of the police force. The mayor was present, and the committee authorized him to employ as many policemen as they could get—five hundred if he could obtain them—and a number of gentlemen present pledged themselves for the payment of this police force.

Q. At four o'clock Sunday afternoon?

A. Yes; four o'clock Sunday afternoon, and there was also a sort of militia force organized, of which Mayor McCarthy told you this morning.

Q. This suggestion of employing five hundred police was made to the mayor, was it?

A. I don't remember from where the suggestion emanated. It seemed to be the unanimous wish of those present.

Q. Did you so inform the mayor of that week?

A. Yes; and the question was raised as to how they were to be paid, and quite a number of citizens there pledged themselves for the payment, and the mayor was asked if that would be satisfactory, and he said it was entirely so.

Q. Did the mayor issue any call, or any command, or summon any posse of citizens as a police force?

A. Immediately a call was made for citizens to unite with the mayor, and I think there was quite a force congregated together, and started to procure such arms as were available.

Q. That was the request made, was it?

A. I am not able to recall whether the request was made by the mayor. It was suggested from some source, and matters were done under a good deal of excitement. There was not much formality about that.

Q. Doctor Donnelly's command was organized at that time?

A. Donnelly had charge of it. An hour afterwards or so there were some others that repaired to the Duquesne depot. There are others can tell you more about that than I. The next morning I was at the mayor's office, when a sort of militia force was organized.

Q. How large a force was organized?

A. It is difficult to tell; I could only guess at it. There were, perhaps, two hundred.

Q. Composed of citizens?

A. Of citizens; yes, sir.

Q. Under whose command.

A. I think General Negley was made commander of them, temporarily. There was a telegram there from the burgess of Elizabeth, stating that a party of roughs or rioters were en route to the city by steamer, and this force went down there to meet them when they would arrive. Also during that morning there was a meeting of citizens convened, for the purpose of organizing a committee of safety. This meeting, held on Sunday, did not organize any permanent committee. On Monday there was a permanent committee organized, of which I was a member.

Q. How large a crowd was there during the day Monday, or was there any?

A. On Monday?

Q. Yes?

A. The streets were full of people. I think, possibly, I never have seen so many people in the streets, unless it was during the time of an immense convention.

Q. What class of people?

A. I could not undertake to say, sir. Seemed to me that everybody was there. There were comparatively few of them that I was acquainted with.

Q. This body of rioters, were they in force on Monday?

A. Thought there were a great many very rough looking characters on the street—that I had never seen so many.

Q. Were there any attacks made upon any property or persons, on Monday?

A. No, sir; not that I remember. I cannot re-call any.

Q. Were the business places open on Monday, throughout the city?

A. I think a good many were opened—some were closed. There was a great deal of fear expressed.

Q. Among the citizens?

A. Yes; the committee of public safety began immediately to organize a military force. They organized a force of infantry, and they organized a company of horsemen, and got them under way as rapidly as possible.

Q. To patrol the streets?

A. Yes; to go outside of the city limits, and endeavor to guard against any turbulence anywhere, or any organizations that might show themselves.

Q. Were you up about the railroad works any, during Monday?

A. I think I was not. No, sir; I was not at the scene of the burning on Monday.

Q. This crowd in the streets on Monday, did it seem to be just a promiscuous crowd everywhere on the streets, or was there an organization of men—roughs about?

A. There was nothing to enable me to determine that there was an organization.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Was the crowd attracted by curiosity to see what was going on?

A. It was largely so, I think—attracted by curiosity, although it seemed to me there were an immense number of strange faces amongst them.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You had no trouble in preserving the peace after Monday morning?

A. The peace was preserved on Monday without trouble, because I think these organizations had a very wholesome effect. The committee of public safety then formally instructed the mayor to increase his police force. He had instructions to employ twenty additional men, and under that authority he did employ, I think, one hundred and thirty men, whom the committee on public safety paid.

Q. For how long a time did he keep these men employed?

A. A portion of them were discharged about ten days thereafter—perhaps in all the half of them—and the remainder were continued for forty or fifty days. I would state that the committee of public safety and other citizens united in a paper, whereby they pledged themselves to pay all expenses that might be incurred by this committee, without any limit whatever, and that we subsequently obtained specific subscriptions to the amount of about fifty thousand dollars.

Q. How much of that was expended in the operation?

A. I can't say positively, but a small portion of it, probably fifteen thousand dollars.

Q. And after the organization of that committee of public safety, the peace was preserved from that time forward?

A. Yes, sir; how much the committee had to do with it is a question I could not determine.

Q. Did the people unite heartily in carrying out the suggestions made by that committee?

A. Yes; I think the committee had no cause of complaint. They had the sympathy and coöperation of the community generally.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You know nothing of the causes leading to the riot?

A. Nothing; no, sir; nothing but what is patent to everybody. I had no special facilities for learning anything. Everybody had their own opinion. I was not on the ground prior to Sunday.

Q. Do you know whether this mounted citizens' police force went out of the city, and patrolled the streets leading to the city?

A. That is my impression. I was not with them, but I think they did.

Q. Along the lines of the Pan Handle railroad.

A. Yes; we were a good deal concerned about the Pan Handle road. There were rumors come to the committee that there was very imminent danger of them burning the cars in the tunnel and other points out the Pan Handle road. I think, however, you can glean the facts pertaining to the committee better from Mr. Johnson, who is chairman of that committee. He has examined the minutes, I think, and has charged his memory with the details.

Q. Do you know whether any men were arrested or not that attempted to come in on that road by this citizens' police force?

A. No, sir; my opinion is very vague on that point.

Q. Was not there some disturbance on Monday on some of your streets here in the city?

A. There was a good deal of turbulence all over the city. I remember one instance now. The committee was sent after some guns, and while they were being brought down Market street there was a halt made. They stopped the gun carriages, and somebody went up and boldly spiked the guns, which created a good deal of excitement for the moment.

Q. The crowd spiked the guns?

A. Spiked the guns.

Q. How many guns?

A. There were three of them, I think.

Q. What battery did they belong to?

A. I can't answer. I am not up on military affairs.

Q. Was not there some disturbance on Fifth avenue there that day?

A. There were disturbances, more or less, in many parts of the city. The city was disordered that day—decidedly disorderly.

Q. There was an effort made by the citizens generally, to suppress everything of that kind on Monday?

A. Yes; there was a decided effort made by the citizens.

Q. An organized effort?

A. Yes; the committee of public safety, organized for this special purpose. They acted promptly and vigorously.

Q. Do you know of any disturbance at Limerick, south side, on that day?

A. I cannot recollect it.

Q. Do you know of any disturbance on Second Avenue park?

A. No, sir; I cannot of my own personal knowledge—I cannot recollect.

Robert Atchison, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. 873 Penn avenue.

Q. What is your occupation?

A. Engineer.

Q. On what railroad?

A. P.R.R.

Q. Pennsylvania?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Company now?

A. I am.

Q. Were you in July last, the 19th of July?

A. I have been employed on the road for seventeen years, in the capacity of engineer. If it is necessary, I will just state what I know about it, if it is in evidence. On the morning of Thursday, 19th July, I think it was, the trains were all to be run double. I took out the first train. I was called at three o'clock in the morning, to take out the first train, and there was no trouble then, nor knew of any trouble. We went out—went to Derry.

Q. What hour did you leave?

A. I left at three o'clock in the morning, and got to Derry about seven, and returned. Coming back, before I got to the city, the other side of Walls station, I remarked to my fireman, that I thought there must be a wreck on the road. We had met no freights. We should have met some east of that, several miles. But paid no attention much to it, until I came in sight of Walls station. The accommodation is due there, then, twelve-forty, and I just remarked that if there was a wreck, I suppose they could run the accommodation round, as they often did, in such cases. When I came down—the conductor lives just a little way below—he got on my engine and rode down with me, and I asked him what was the matter, there was nothing out. He just made the remark, that the boys would not let anything go out this morning. That is the first intimation I had of anything, or I believe even the crews. They did not seem to know anything about it.

Q. What time was that?

A. It was about twelve-forty. We came on to the city unmolested by any person, until we came to Torrens station, that is a little way from East Liberty. There was a crowd there, but didn't seem to be doing anything—nobody was doing anything. We had some work to do, to put some cars in or something, and I just remarked to the crowd that was on the other side, says I, "What's going on here?" Says one, "Lots of fun." Mr. Garrett, the train master, gave the signal to me, and we went on, and came down to Twenty-eighth street, and what astonished me more than anything else was the crowd that was there, and the few people that I knew. They were strangers to me. At Twenty-eighth street I could not recognize but a few of our own men. They were all strangers to me. I passed on down with the train, took it to the west end of the yard, and put it away, and backed up my engine to the round-house, and put it in the round-house, and went home. Then I hadn't had any dinner—it was nearly three o'clock. I went home to dinner, and I didn't come up that afternoon, I don't think, again. I was up the next day around, but there was nothing going out, and the way we were running—some one remarked to me, I could not tell who it was—says he, "Go ahead, you can go in, but you can't go out." Says I, "Never mind, it is not my turn to go out."

Q. Were you put on Friday?

A. Yes; I was about.

Q. Was you ready to take out your train?

A. I was ready, and came up there on Friday. One of the officers remarked to me, there was nothing going out. It seemed to be this way: that if they got a train ready and the engine, there was no crew, and if you got a crew, there was no engine or anything else there. Some of the officers remarked to me that the Philadelphia soldiers were coming in, and everything would go on then as usual. I think I went home, and I didn't come back again that night. In the morning—Saturday morning, six o'clock—I was sent for to come up and go out. I believe before I had my breakfast. As soon as I got breakfast I went out, but I didn't see nothing for me to go out on, and I stood around there until eleven o'clock on Saturday, I think eleven or twelve, and I then just remarked to the foreman—I think it was the foreman, in the round-house—that I was going down home, and that if they wanted me, to send a watchman down to me, I would be at home—I would not be away from home. I said to my family, I believed I would go to bed and take some sleep, for I might have to come out to-night. I suppose it was fortunate for me I was not up in the crowd at the time of the shooting. I might have been there.

Q. Were you ready at all times to take out your train?

A. Provided everything had been all right I would. I would not like the idea of starting out there on Sunday morning. I didn't think I would like to take out a train then.

Q. Thought there was too big a crowd to get through?

A. I didn't feel like it.

Q. You were ready to go if the track was clear?

A. Yes; oh, yes.

Q. Had you heard, prior to your information at Walls, anything about the strike?

A. Never had the least intimation, because I do not think it was a pre-arranged matter at all. It did not seem to me that anybody seemed to know. No; I knew nothing about it, and nobody else seemed to know anything about it. The order was given on Wednesday, I think, that all trains would be run double from Thursday. That seemed to be a kind of sticker on some of them. They didn't care much whether they started or not, and some of them that morning, on the eight-forty train, refused to go out. They didn't care whether they went out or not, and just quit.

Q. There had been no pre-arranged plan for a strike to take place at that time?

A. Not that I had ever heard of.

Q. Had there been any arrangement made for a strike at or near that time?

A. Not to my knowledge. Not among the engineers, or so far as I know.

Q. Did you know of the existence of what was called the Trainmen's Union?

A. I did not at that time.

Q. Had no knowledge of that?

A. Had no knowledge nor no idea of anything of the kind going on.

Q. Had you talked with the conductors or brakesmen—had intercourse with them?

A. Oh, yes; there was never one of them mentioned anything of the kind to me, nothing of the kind at all. In fact, I don't have as much intercourse with the trainmen on the road as we did formerly when they had no caboose. Of late years they have been running cabooses, and they generally congregate there themselves.

Q. Engineers congregate more on their engine?

A. Yes; all the time train men go back in the caboose.

Q. You have an organization among the engineers?

A. There is an organization existing.

Q. Is that for engineers especially?

A. Especially, yes.

Q. Was there any talk of that kind in that organization that you know of—of striking?

A. Not a particle, not at the time.

Q. During the progress of the depredations or burning on Sunday were you present?

A. I was; I live close by.

Q. What class of men were engaged in active arson and destruction of property—burning?

A. It appears to me the roughest class of people I ever saw. They appeared to be all strangers to me. I was present when the alarm of fire was struck. I was at the corner of Twenty-sixth street, right opposite the round-house, where the soldiers were. I was coming down, I guess it was ten o'clock or near eleven, and the firemen responded to the alarm, and came up Penn avenue a little above my house, and they was stopped by the crowd. They told them they could not go any further. I was across the street. I heard one man say, "I will shoot the horse, and if you undertake to go, I will shoot you." They ran across the street, and came right beside me, and I heard them say they would have them out of there if they would have to burn them out. I just said, said I, "my God, men, don't set anything on fire here, you will burn it all up," and the answer he made was, "Go to hell, you son of a bitch." That was the very words he made use of. I thought the least I could say was the best, as I was by myself.

Q. Were there any railroad men engaged during the day Sunday?

A. I didn't see one railroad man to my knowledge, not an employé of the Pennsylvania railroad.

Q. Men that had been discharged, did you see any of that kind?

A. I did not see any of the kind.

Q. What did you, in connection with other railroad men, do to try and stop this?

A. We did not do very much, for we could not. It seemed as though everybody was intimidated, and felt himself afraid to undertake to do anything. I did, I know, as one by myself. I do not think, in a crowd of men, it would have been useless to try to stop the burning at nine o'clock in the morning.

Q. Sunday morning?

A. Sunday morning. The whole yard was in flames.

Q. Did you have any communication with the committee that was sent up from Harrisburg?

A. I did; I believe I did.

Q. State what that was?

A. General Brown came to me in the morning—about five o'clock.

Q. Sunday morning?

A. Sunday morning; and said to me—he wanted to know where this committee of railroad men was. I told him that I did not know where it was, but, says I, maybe I could find some of them. If we could get past Twenty-sixth street we might get some of them; but you can't pass through, they are shooting us there. Says he, tell them to come down to the Union depot, that I am authorized to give the men what they ask. There was a party went down there, and they could not find General Brown or any one else.

Q. Who was it went down?

A. I went down for one, and I didn't mind who else went down, it was impossible to get one of that committee, because they were scattered all through the city.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you on this committee of safety or any sub-committee, appointed by them, to go and confer with the strikers at any time.

A. No, I do not think—I think we went down. There was a committee of safety come up there, and I think Captain McMunn and myself and some of our ward boys, several of us, went down.

Q. As railroad men?

A. As railroad men, we went down. I got into the crowd down here, right below the elevator there, tried to find the leading man of the citizens' committee, and they got to shooting, and the crowd ran down there. There was a tremendous crowd there, and carried us along with them. I do not think there was any use to try to do anything at all.

Q. You said you would not like to have attempted to get out with that train on Saturday?

A. No; I would not.

Q. Did you apprehend any danger from any one?

A. None. I would not have apprehended any danger, I think, from anybody but from outsiders.

Q. Not from the railroad men?

A. Not from the railroad men. I did not think that they would interfere with me.

Q. Did you hear any threats of violence from the railroad men or engineers or any railroad strikers?

A. No; not to me at all.

Q. From any one else?

A. I did from outsiders—remarks—but I didn't know who they were—that the first man that would attempt to go out had better hunt his coffin.

Q. You saw the handling of cars and engines by the rioters during the destruction of property there in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street and at the depot—did these men handle the cars and engines as if they had been accustomed to handling cars and engines?

A. I didn't see anybody handling an engine. After the soldiers went into the round-house, I never went up near the place, that is, further than going up some of the side streets to look over the burning. All the engines were further up, at Twenty-eighth street. I was not up there.

Q. You saw none of the mob taking engines and running them on the track?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see them handling the cars and switches?

A. I did not.

Q. You were speaking of an association of engineers. Is that the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there any coöperation or action between that association and the Trainmen's Union at any time that you know of?

A. I do not think there was any of any account?

Q. If there was, you would know it?

A. I believe I should know it. There was a disposition on the part of all the men, when the strike had occurred, to stand out for their ten per cent. That was their object.

Q. That is, you mean all the trainmen, and engineers as well?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you a member of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers?

A. I was. I believe the order in this vicinity has disappeared.

Q. That association was got up for protection—a charitable institution for those that were connected with it?

A. Nothing to interfere with the railroad.

Q. If there had been any coöperation between the Trainmen's Union, or any connection between them and your association, you would likely know something about it.

A. Yes; there was this, so far as the ten per cent. went. That I believe was all after the burning. I do not think there was any connection with it before.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Was there any coöperation or pre-arranged plan to strike for the purpose of securing this ten per cent.?

A. No, sir; not at all. The trouble had originated not until after there had been a committee to see Mr. Scott; but the thing had dropped, and I had heard nothing of it from the time that committee reported, and I do not remember the report they made, either.

Q. Was there a general dissatisfaction and complaint on the part of the railroad employés on account of this reduction of pay?

A. There was. That seemed to be a great deal of the trouble. They were dissatisfied with the pay they were getting.

Q. In your opinion, did that lead to the strike and trouble here?

A. I do not think it did. No, sir; I do not think so.

Q. What was it that led to the disturbance?

A. I do not think that would lead to it, because if the committee of engineers went to see the general officers, and they didn't get satisfaction, or claimed that the business that they were doing could not pay it, the men would have waited until such time as they would. They claimed that they were in pretty close quarters financially, but as soon as business would warrant, why they would restore it.

Q. What led to immediate troubles here? What was the immediate cause?

A. Running these double trains.

Q. Double-headers, as they were called?

A. Double-headers, as we called them.

Q. Why was there less objection to running double-headers?

A. In the first place it is very disagreeable for the men, and they consider it dangerous for one thing, and in running these trains it cuts a good many of them out of employment.

Q. Reduce the force of train men, not engineers?

A. Not of engineers, of trainmen.

Q. Wherein consisted the danger of running double-headers?

A. In the first place you hold just twice as many cars, and you don't have any more men on the train to hold them. Brakemen would hold thirty-four cars with two engines, and seventeen cars with one. If these trains get started they are pretty hard to manage.

Q. Did you have these engines at the head of the trains at all times, or did you have one in the front and one in the rear?

A. At the head all the time, they consider it safer that way to run them than to run one behind. Going through these up and down grades and turning is liable to break.

Q. The only danger there was in not having the same number of brakesmen to the same number of cars as you do when you run the single train?

A. That would have helped the matter considerably, I believe.

Q. There was no other danger?

A. There was no other danger.

Q. Could not that danger have been counteracted by having less trains?

A. They would not think that was safer.

Q. Would not there have been less danger by taking two trains and making one, and running them on the track—less danger of collisions than if you had to have two trains instead of one?

A. There is more danger running this double train than the single trains, because they are harder to manage.

Q. You can handle a train more readily?

A. Yes; check it up quicker. You can check a train much quicker—a light train than a heavy one—and they are less liable to break in the dark and in the fog. In the fog you can't tell whether they are broken or not. They might stop, and the hind part run into the front part, which has been frequently done.

J. F. Cluley, sworn.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Where do you live?

A. Centre avenue, city.

Q. What is your business?

A. Painter.

Q. Go on and state what you know in relation to the riots of last July?

A. On the Saturday, probably about half-past two, I went up to the depot and went in, and the Philadelphia soldiers were about starting out. I got up to Twenty-eighth street probably half an hour before they did. Everything was quiet there—at Twenty-eighth street. There was a company keeping the street clear—a company of troops.

Q. Who was that company commanded by?

A. I do not know. It looked like a cavalry company on foot from the trimmings on their clothes. As soon as the Philadelphia troops came up the mob closed round, and commenced hooting and hollering.

Q. Go on and state what took place there?

A. I suppose I had been up there probably twenty minutes, when they formed a double line and cleared the track. I was throwed over toward the round-house. I went round the cars at Twenty-eighth street, probably two hundred feet up the hill. There was a ravine coming down there, and I got outside of it. I don't mind how long I had been in there before the troops formed. At that time they had swept the tracks, and there was two or three lines formed outside the tracks. The troops had done some manœuvering, they had marched up right against the track. At that time Twentieth street was blocked, and they marched, and the crowd did not get away, and they stepped back and made a bayonet charge. It seems to me after they had marched up against them I saw some men stagger, but I was too far off. About the time they made the bayonet charge there was a stone or three or four stones came from the direction of the hospital, and a pistol shot fired.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. From the direction of the hospital?

A. There is a watch-box there—it was not more than three stones, I think, they throwed. It was done just about the time the bayonet charge was made, and then there was a pistol shot about the same time.

Q. From the crowd?

A. It was generally in that direction; I suppose it was in the crowd. Then the firing was done just after.

Q. Did you hear any command to fire?

A. No; I was two hundred feet back. I was in a position that I could see the whole thing take place.

Q. Did the men fire as if they had received a command?

A. It appeared to be a scattered fire. As soon as they commenced firing, I started up on the hill. Some one called out they were firing blank cartridges, and I seen the dust flying around, and I threw myself down like everybody else. There was a man shot within the length of this room from me, and killed—a man named Ray, I think. I then started down hill, and when I was coming down I saw a man on the far side of Twenty-eighth street swing round a freight car, and throw into the company—he threw three or four stones or some missiles in among them, the last, when I was down almost to the track, and I thought every stone I seen throwed, I thought they would fire.

Q. Was it before they had fired?

A. After the firing, he swung around, and seemed to be inviting them, I thought, to do something.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Inviting the soldiers?

A. It looked as though he was. He was holding on to the iron rod on the car, and was swinging on in front of them. He was a large man, about six feet, very genteelly dressed—more so than the common run of them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. This man you saw swinging on round there, trying to make an effort to exasperate them?

A. It looked as though he was inviting them.

Q. It looked as though he was trying to exasperate them?

A. It looked as though he was inviting them to fire. I crossed the track ten minutes after the firing was over. The soldiers seemed to be laying huddled together. This stone throwing was right in among them.

Q. Did you see any of the soldiers struck down by missiles before the firing took place?

A. When the first advance was made, I thought I saw one of them stagger. I cannot tell whether they were hit. After they made the bayonet charge the parties took their hands and threw the guns up.

Q. What was the appearance of the class of men that threw the stones?

A. This I think was a half grown boy that threw the missiles from the back of the house.

Q. A boy?

A. It looked to me. Three or four have grown boys there.

Q. Did you see any men there throwing stones?

A. I don't recollect of seeing any stones throwed, except at this watch-box, until I saw this man, after the firing was all over. The track was perfectly clear when I crossed.

Q. What was the character of the crowd immediately in front of the military, or near the military?

A. Rough looking. I had seen the same crowd around for two or three days. I had been out and in on the railroad. I had seen them at … street and Twenty-eighth street, for two or three days.

Q. Would you take them to be citizens of Harrisburg?

A. Yes, sir; not as a general thing. I know some of the conductors of the trains remarked to me that everybody was going in and nobody was coming out—all the tramps come in town and none going out.

Q. These men—would you take them to be what is generally denominated tramps?

A. Not all of them. Generally a pretty rough looking set. On the hill side there was plenty of women and children.

Q. I mean in the immediate vicinity of where the troubles were?

A. These were a rough looking set of men. I won't say they were all tramps. They were a rough looking set of men. I noticed them before the military came up. There was no disturbance at all until after the military came up. They were all quiet.

Q. They resisted the military, when they came up?

A. After they formed a line and made a charge.

Q. They resisted the military before the firing?

A. Yes; they stood right like a wall. The military marched up, and they didn't give the least bit. Then they stepped back a piece or two, and made a bayonet charge. I was not close enough to hear any orders given.

C. H. Armstrong, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. Thirty-second street.

Q. What is your occupation?

A. Coal business.

Q. Where is your office?

A. Liberty street, between Twenty-eighth and Twenty-ninth.

Q. Were you at your office on the 19th—Thursday, 19th of July last?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How large a crowd of men was there gathered about there during Thursday?

A. There was quite a large crowd there during Thursday morning. Towards the afternoon a great number had come up to see the strikers. There was very few railroad men among the crowd.

Q. What class of men were there?

A. Parties that lived around the railroad there, just come up to see the excitement.

Q. Where they demonstrative?

A. No, sir; they were not. They were all talking about double-headers, I do not know what they meant, and I asked them, and they told me about putting two engines on a long train.

Q. How large a crowd was there at any one time during the day, Thursday?

A. I guess three or four hundred—in the afternoon about four o'clock.

Q. Did they remain there during the night, Thursday?

A. Yes; I was up there about twelve o'clock, and there was a few men there—about thirty remained there during the night waiting for trains to go out.

Q. How many on Friday?

A. There was seven or eight hundred. They were expecting the soldiers in that evening. Were also expecting the Harrisburg men up that evening. They did not come up. I went down Saturday morning and went down the railroad from our house. I saw the Harrisburg soldiers there on the side of the hill and also down by the railroad.

Q. How large was it Saturday?

A. I don't know how large it was; the streets were just jammed and the side of the hill on Twenty-eighth street.

Q. Was you present when the firing took place?

A. Yes; I was up on the side of the hill about seventy yards from where the troops were.

Q. Did you see troops as they marched up?

A. Yes; I saw them before they left the Union depot. Saw them get their cartridges before they left there.

Q. Did you go up ahead of them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have any talk with the mob?

A. Yes, sir; I talked with some of the railroad men.

Q. Tell them that the troops were coming?

A. Told them that the Philadelphia troops were coming.

Q. What did they say?

A. They said that they were not afraid of that; as long as they didn't hurt them, they would not hurt them.

Q. Was the sheriff's posse ahead of the line?

A. Yes; I recognized a few of them, I believe the sheriff was ahead, and, I think, Deputy Sheriff Steward, and, I think, Mr. Pitcairn was also ahead of them. He was walking beside Sheriff Fife.

Q. Did you see any stones or missiles thrown by the crowd at the soldiers?

A. Yes; about the time they were charging bayonets.

Q. Was there any pistols fired by the crowd?

A. There was one or two fired. A pistol about the center of Twenty-eighth street; held it over, and shot down the road. By that time there were stone throwing. There were two cannons, and there was some boys started to throw stones, and one of them hit a soldier against a car, and the moment he fell they started firing. He threw up his arm about the time they charged bayonets—the crowd was throwing the bayonets up. The crowd catched hold of the bayonets, and threw the guns up to save themselves.

Q. Did you hear any command given by any of the officers to fire?

A. No, sir; I did not. I heard them charge bayonets. I heard that command, and I heard them give their military manœuvres, but I heard no command to fire at all.

Q. Did you remain there during the night—Saturday night?

A. Yes; I was there until Sunday, at dinner time.

Q. What time did the mob begin to fire the cars?

A. At half past ten o'clock.

Q. Do you know who set the first on fire?

A. No, sir; I could not say, I heard them say it was small boys done it. It was right back of our office it first started. The time I saw it there was first one car on fire, and they started to run oil cars down against it.

Q. Were you there during the time, Thursday or Friday, when the police force came out?

A. They were there. I did not see them come up, they were up there when I was there.

Q. How many policemen?

A. I do not know how many there was, only about ten or twelve, I think. I think there was only three or four on Thursday.

Q. Did they make any efforts to disperse the mob?

A. Not as I saw.

Q. Did they assist in trying to start the train?

A. I did not see them trying to do that at all.

Q. Do you know who was in charge of the police?

A. No, sir; I could not say.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You heard the command given by the officers to charge bayonets?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you remain in the same position after you heard that command until after the firing commenced?

A. No, sir; I did not, after the first volley was fired.

Q. But from the time you heard the command given to charge bayonets up to the time of the firing, were you still in the same position?

A. Yes; I was in the same position.

Q. If there had been a command given by the officers to fire, you think you would have heard it?

A. I think so. I heard most of the other commands and the manœuvres they went through before they charged bayonets.

Q. You heard that distinctly?

A. I heard the order to carry arms, shoulder arms——

Q. Arms port?

A. I do not know whether I heard arms port or not.

Q. How long after the command was given to charge bayonets before the firing commenced?

A. About two minutes. It was a different body of men that came up through the hollow-square.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. How did they fire. Did they fire altogether, as if they were ordered to fire?

A. The parties next to the cars. The men in their company did the first shooting, and they shot very low. At the same time those in front shot higher.

Q. They commenced?

A. Commenced right where these men fell.

Q. On the road?

A. No; that was, I run back against the car—a lot of flat cars filled with coal.

Q. Was this the line that was formed parallel with the railroad tracks, on the right towards the hill side?

A. No; towards the round-house.

Q. There is where the first shot was fired?

A. Yes, sir. A man standing near the end of the cars fell, and just as he fell, they just put their guns up and shot.

Q. Did you notice in what direction they fired?

A. Towards the hill.

Q. Over the heads of the other line?

A. Yes, over the heads; I could see the dirt fly; the party in front of them shot.

Q. Did they appear to fire in the direction of where the missiles and stones came from?

A. The missiles came right in front of this other body of men that shot towards the side of the hill. The stones were right at the foot of the hill, and they shot up on the side of the hill. The boys that threw the stones, were down at the foot of the hill, right back of the tracks. There was two cannons there, and those boys were right among them throwing.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Did you say the troops came out of the round-house, Sunday?

A. I didn't say they came out of the round-house; I say they passed Twenty-eighth street. I was on the corner of Twenty-eighth and Penn when they passed.

Q. Was anybody shooting at them?

A. I saw one man following them up as they came down Twenty-eighth street.

Q. He followed them up?

A. Followed them so far as I could see, about the middle of Twenty-eighth and Twenty-ninth. I was afraid they would shoot at me.

Q. What did he do while he was following up?

A. Threatened to shoot several times—threatened to shoot on an alley in Twenty-eighth street. We put up our hands at him. He got up again and followed them at Penn street. I got back of a sign and I believe he shot after he got a piece further up.

Q. You didn't see him fire?

A. No.

Q. He had a gun?

A. A breech-loader.

Q. Musket?

A. It was one of those breech-loaders. I saw him throw it up and examine the cartridges.

Q. Did you know the man?

A. No; I knew he wore a linen coat and a white straw hat.

Q. Was it a rifle or a shot gun?

A. Yes; regular musket, called breech-loaders, something similar to what the militia have.

At this point the committee adjourned, to meet at the arsenal, at half-past eight o'clock, this evening.

Allegheny Arsenal, Friday Evening, February 22, 1878.

The committee met pursuant to adjournment, at the United States Arsenal, at half-past eight o'clock. All members present.

Major A. R. Buffington, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. First state your rank and official position here under the United States Government?

A. Major ordnance United States Army, commanding Allegheny arsenal—commandant Allegheny arsenal—which ever way you choose to put it.

Q. If you will go on and get at the facts, probably it will be as easy as any other way to come at a statement of the facts that came within your knowledge?

A. I presume what you want from me are simple facts. You want no opinions, nor anything else—my knowledge of the riot. I have here three or four little notes addressed to me:

July 21, 5, P.M.

Major Buffington, Commanding U.S. Arsenal:

The troops of the first division, after having been fired at by the rioters, returned the fire, killing and wounding a number. It is said the rioters will take the arsenal, and take the arms and ammunition. It may be a rumor; I will give it to you for what it is worth. It would be well for you to be on your guard.

(Signed)

A. L. Pearson, Major General.

Q. What time did you receive that note?

A. I received that note somewhere about six o'clock. It is dated five-thirty, P.M., July 21, about half an hour afterwards—about six o'clock, I should judge. Previous to this, I would state that three gentlemen came here from the city—came to my quarters—and informed me in substance the same thing, before this was received—perhaps an hour. Was received somewhere about that time. That was the first notice I had of it.