REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE Railroad Riots IN JULY, 1877. (continued 5)
Reading edition
Q. Did you start that morning or make any attempt to start?
A. We made every preparation to start, with the exception of coupling up the train. I examined the train as I was going into the yard. I thought the men were rather long in getting the engine out. I started up, and on going to the train men's room met two of my brakemen, and asked the cause of the delay. They told me they didn't intend to go out. I asked the reason. They said they had either quit or struck—I don't recollect. I asked what their object was in striking. They said they didn't intend to run on double-headers—that they were not making any more than a living at that time, and that by running double-headers, it would cause some of them to be dismissed or suspended. That they didn't know who it would be, and as they had the advantage at that time, they would make the best use of it they could.
Q. Those were your brakemen?
A. Yes.
Q. What were their names?
A. One was named John Vensel and the other I cannot give his first name. In giving in his time, I always gave it as M. Martin.
Q. What time had you this conversation with them?
A. I judge about nine o'clock.
Q. They said that some of them would be dismissed?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any further conversation with them?
A. I did.
Q. What about?
A. I tried to advise them not to strike, and showed them the folly of it. I told them that the times were hard at present and that freight was very slack, and that the company was trying to economize and that their chances were just as good as mine. I advised them to stay. They claimed "no," that they had determined to quit, and were going to do it or had done it. I notified the dispatcher then that the men had quit, and asked what I was to do. He told me to remain, and that he would provide men for me. He went around and made an effort to get men but could not get them. I then asked permission to go to dinner, and I went, and came back about twelve or one. There was no change in the affair at all, everything remained just as it had been.
Q. Where did these men go when they refused to go out on the train?
A. In the yard.
Q. They did not go home?
A. No; they remained in the yard up to the time I left, and I saw them there in the afternoon.
Q. Were there any other men about at that time?
A. Yes; men were continually coming in off the road.
Q. How many men were there when you left to go to dinner?
A. I should judge about eighteen or twenty men at that time.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any other men?
A. With my flagman.
Q. What did he say?
A. He thought as the rest did, that now was the time to strike or quit, and that they all had concluded to do it, and that all my conversation with him would not change his ideas a particle.
Q. What men were coming in?
A. The men off the regular freight trains kept coming in there during the day.
Q. They joined the other men?
A. Yes; and swelled the crowd.
Q. Did you talk with those men to find out whether they had arranged for this strike previously?
A. I did not. I blamed them for it, but they denied it. Whether they had made an arrangement or not for that day, I don't know.
Q. They denied an arrangement?
A. Yes.
Q. How many of them denied it?
A. Two or three of them I think denied it. They had made an arrangement previous to this to strike, but from some cause or other it was not carried into effect, and my being a non-union man, I concluded that they had arranged it in such a way that the responsibility would fall on me, and in case it would be a failure I would be the man discharged, and that the union men would not suffer. That was the opinion I formed that morning.
Q. How long previous had they made this arrangement?
A. A month or two months before.
Q. What prevented the carrying of the arrangement into effect?
A. I do not know. When a railroad man came to me, and requested me to join them, I told them I could not do it; that my opinion was different from theirs with reference to strikes; that I did not feel justified in doing it. He asked me if I had any injury. I told him I could not say. He said: "I am going to strike to-morrow." I went as far as Derry, and laid over two or three hours. The only person there I saw by himself was the dispatcher. I went to him and told him in confidence that these men were going to strike.
Q. When was that?
A. It was previous to this affair of the men going out—a month or two months.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. After the reduction of ten per cent.?
A. Yes. I told the dispatcher that these men had come to the conclusion to strike, and told him I wanted to let it be known—that two thirds of them were not friends of mine, and it would only cause me trouble by their going out, and I would notify the proper officers in time to give them a chance to prevent in case it should occur. I returned to the city that morning with the train. Coming in, I wondered how to get at the superintendent's office without being seen. I did not care about being known, and after putting the train away, I concluded I would go out on the accommodation, but I met one of my men, and I got into conversation with him, and I asked him if he knew anything about it. He said he did, and he said it had fallen through. I asked him if he was positive of it, he said he was—that he knew it had. I told him I was very glad to hear it. Says he, I am not. I concluded then not to go out. I made inquiries among other men, and found it to be the fact, that they had concluded not to strike at the time appointed.
Q. Did this man give you any reasons?
A. He did not.
Q. Who was he?
A. His name was Sloan.
Q. Did you hear any other conversation or learn anything of any other union or organization to strike from that morning until the 19th?
A. No.
Q. Had you any knowledge that your men would not go out until you met them—those two men?
A. None whatever.
Q. How long before that morning was it known to the men that the order had been issued to run double-headers?
A. It was known in six hours, I should judge, to all the men on the line after the order was posted on the bulletin boards.
Q. When was it posted?
A. I cannot give the date, but fancy it was posted twenty-four hours before the order should have gone into effect.
Q. Did you discover that it produced any commotion among the men?
A. Not more so than at other times. There was general dissatisfaction among the men on account of the double trains. Of course it increased it somewhat. There were several trains running before this order was issued, but when this order would go into effect it would make all trains double, and this would cause them to feel more dissatisfied.
Q. After you returned from your dinner on Friday, how large a crowd did you find in the yard?
A. I judge about twenty men—twenty-five—probably more.
Q. All railroad employés?
A. I cannot say that, but the greater portion of them at that time were railroad employés. The crowd gradually increased until evening.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the men after you returned from your dinner?
A. With some of them.
Q. About going out?
A. I spoke to them, and asked them who had organized it, and what they were going to do about it. They said they did not know, that they had quit because the rest had, and intended to see it through.
Q. Was there any effort made that afternoon to start the trains?
A. I believe not that afternoon to my knowledge.
Q. When was the first effort made to start the trains, to your knowledge?
A. Thursday morning.
Q. Was there none made on Friday morning, to your knowledge?
A. I think not.
Q. Or during the day Friday?
A. An effort was made, I think, in the afternoon of Friday.
Q. Were you present when that effort was made?
A. I was.
Q. How large was the crowd at that time?
A. I cannot tell the number, but it was a very large crowd.
Q. Composed of employés of your railroad, and of the different roads?
A. Almost all classes of men were there.
Q. Who seemed to be the leaders, at that time, of the crowd?
A. It would be a very difficult matter for me to say. In fact they all seemed to lead—where one would go, the rest would follow.
Q. Do you mean helter-skelter?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did there seem to be any leader who was taking charge of the riot?
A. In the beginning there was one man that seemed to take the lead—on the morning of Thursday, but after that I lost all trace of him.
Q. Who was he?
A. His name was Hice. I was in the telegraph office on Thursday morning, after the strike occurred, talking to the train runner. He came up, after the conversation with me, and I saw him in the act of trying to couple an engine on to some caboose cars. They failed to do so on account of the throwing of stones and other missiles.
Q. What time was that?
A. I judge about ten o'clock—along there somewhere.
Q. Thursday?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that the first violence that was used?
A. The first I saw.
Q. Who were those persons who were throwing the stones?
A. I cannot say who they were.
Q. How many composed the crowd at that time?
A. I fancy some fifteen or eighteen men that I saw there, but might have been more.
Q. Were they all railroad employés?
A. I cannot say that.
Q. Were those brakemen who had refused to go out with you among them?
A. That I cannot say. I was not close enough to see whether my men were among them or not.
Q. On Friday afternoon, when the attempt was made to start the train, will you tell us what occurred then?
A. As near as I can recollect, the train was made up, and it was pulled up out of the freight yard. I don't know whether the caboose car was coupled or not. I cannot recollect, but I saw the train start as though it was going to go out. I saw men run in front of the engines to stop them, and I saw the parties get off of them, and the train then was backed into the yard after that.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was that on Friday?
A. I cannot say whether it was Thursday afternoon or Friday, but it was one of those two days. It seems to me it was Thursday afternoon—the same day.
Q. When the resistance was made there, was it a combined resistance of all the men, or did only two or three seem to be leading the others?
A. It was a general rush, a swinging of hands, and a yelling and hooting.
Q. Were any missiles thrown of any kind?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Was any violence used towards those who were trying to take the train out?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Were any threats made to the loyal men who were willing to work?
A. I was not close enough to hear the conversation.
Q. Were you threatened at any time if you did not leave the yard?
A. Not directly. Two or three men came to me, and asked me if I was going out. I told them yes, if I could get a crew, and one of them intimated to me that I had better not go, or words to that effect—that they did not want to hurt me, or something like that. That was about all.
Q. Whom did you report to when your men refused to go out?
A. The dispatcher.
Q. What is his name?
A. William Hunter.
Q. How many trains were to go out at that hour—eight-forty?
A. I think mine was the only one at that time, with the exception of the single train going on the branch.
Q. When were the next trains to start?
A. The next, I believe, would have been eleven o'clock—no; the next would have been nine-forty.
Q. Do you know whether the conductors of those trains were all prepared to start them or not?
A. I believe one of them was there.
Q. Did you have any talk with him?
A. I did.
Q. Was he willing to go?
A. No; he was not.
Q. He was among the strikers?
A. Yes.
Q. Were the engineers willing to go?
A. That I do not know. One of them came to me and ask if I was going out, and I told him yes, if I could get a crew. He turned around and walked away, and did not say anything more to me about it.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What was this conductor's name?
A. Meredith.
Q. You said that two or three men came and asked you if you were going out, and you said yes, if you could get a crew, and that then they intimated it would be well for you if you did not. Who were these men?
A. One was D. W. Davis. The other name I do not recollect.
Q. What was his position at that time?
A. A brakeman, I believe.
Q. Had he been discharged or was he still in the employ of the company?
A. He was in the employ of the company up to that morning, so far as I know.
Q. Do you know where he is now?
A. No.
Q. Has he been in the employ of the company since?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. The other's name you do not remember?
A. I don't remember at all.
Q. Where is this Conductor Meredith?
A. I think he is in some part of Kentucky.
Q. How many men did you have as trainmen for one train?
A. Three.
Q. Besides yourself, and aside from the engineer and fireman?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you have any fear of violence from the employés of the road if you started out?
A. Well, I had a fear, but no serious fear. I did not think that they would kill me.
Q. You did not believe on the morning of the riot that they would do so?
A. No; besides I was determined to protect myself in the best way I could.
John Plender, sworn with uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. I am living at Walls station.
Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. Yes, sir; I am running a passenger engine—the "accommodation"—as engineer.
Q. Were you in July last?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Between what points?
A. Between Walls and Pittsburgh.
Q. What is the distance of Walls from Pittsburgh?
A. Sixteen miles.
Q. How often do you make your trips?
A. I make three round trips a day.
Q. Were you at the Union depot on Thursday morning, the 19th?
A. I came in that morning from Walls, at eight-fifteen.
Q. What time did you go out?
A. At twelve-five.
Q. Where were you between eight-fifteen and twelve-five?
A. In the round-house, at work on my engine.
Q. When did you first learn that any men had refused to go out on their trains?
A. I suppose it was half-past nine when one of the men told me. It was an engineer that told me.
Q. Was he one that had refused to go out?
A. No; he had just come in.
Q. Did you learn anything more about it between that time and twelve o'clock?
A. No. The "Yioughiougheny" came in, and he told me that there was a strike.
Q. What then took place?
A. That was all that took place between him and me.
Q. Did you remain in the round-house?
A. I remained in there until eleven o'clock, when I backed out, and came down and took out the train.
Q. Were you interfered with in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the strikers that day?
A. Not until evening.
Q. Whom did you see in the evening?
A. I had no conversation, no more than a man stopped me at Twenty-eighth street, and asked me what I was hauling.
Q. Were you coming in or going out?
A. I was going out on the last trip, at eleven-forty. I told him I was hauling an accommodation train. He told me I could go on, and he got down off the engine.
Q. Did they stop you?
A. No; they were all standing there, and when I came up—we all have to stop there—he got on the engine.
Q. At what point?
A. At Twenty-eighth street.
Q. How many were standing there then?
A. Quite a number—I suppose about thirty-five or forty of them.
Q. Did you know any of them?
A. I knew him. It was dark, and I couldn't see who the rest were.
Q. What was the name of that man?
A. D. W. Davis, I think.
Q. Did he say anything more to you?
A. No; nothing more. He said it was all right, that I could go on, after I told him what I was hauling.
Q. What was the manner of the crowd at that time as to their being boisterous or demonstrative?
A. Indeed, I could not tell you. We just stop for a couple of minutes, and sometimes not that long.
Q. You had no conversation with any other excepting the one who got on your engine?
A. That is all. He was discharged off this road a couple of times, and off the Pan-Handle, I believe.
Q. Why was he discharged?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Where did he live?
A. Somewhere about Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Did you learn that day, or any time after that, when these parties resolved to strike?
A. No.
Q. Did you know of any preconceived plan of striking?
A. No; I did not.
Q. Do you know whether they have a secret organization or not?
A. All I heard of was the Train Men's Union—that is all I know of.
Q. What is the object of that?
A. That I cannot tell you. I never was in any of their meetings, and know nothing about it.
Q. Do you know whether there was any other organization?
A. The Engineers' Brotherhood.
Q. What is the object of that?
A. That I cannot tell you. It is something I never belonged to.
Q. Did you come in on your regular trip in the morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you molested in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you go out on time and come in on time all day Friday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Without being molested?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you run on Saturday?
A. Until eight-fifteen, Saturday night.
Q. What stopped you then?
A. I did not go out at eleven-forty, because I could not get out at eleven-forty.
Q. Why?
A. The fire was too hot.
Q. I suppose you didn't go out for a week or so then?
A. I went to work on Tuesday.
Q. At what time?
A. I think I went out at six-five on Tuesday night.
Q. Was there still a crowd about then?
A. Yes.
Q. How large about?
A. I cannot tell how large the crowd was.
Q. Had the work commenced then, by the company, in clearing off the tracks—the debris?
A. Indeed, I cannot tell you whether it had or not.
Q. Were you interfered with in any way on Tuesday night when you went out?
A. Not on Tuesday night.
Q. What was the mob doing at that time on Tuesday night?
A. The mob was cleared away then, on Tuesday, partly.
Q. Partly, you say?
A. From Thirty-third street. It was as far as we could get. I went to work on Tuesday after the Sunday of the fire.
Q. You run your trains regularly up to Saturday night?
A. Yes; we came in at eight-fifteen.
Q. Were you there when any of the demonstrations were made by the crowd in firing or throwing stones?
A. No.
Q. You were not about Twenty-eighth street then?
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you see any interference?
A. I saw the interfering on Thursday with the Union Line that they were trying to take out.
Q. Stopping of the train?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any violence or assaulting of the engineer, or any train men of that train?
A. No; the crowd just got in front of the engines, and sprung on them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Who were those men?
A. They were other men than railroad men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you know any of those men who got on your train?
A. No.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Couldn't you guess from their appearance what their trades or occupations were?
A. No.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did they get on and off the engine as if they were men used to being around the cars?
A. No; some of them would get off and fall, and some of them would get off pretty good.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were they sober or not?
A. I could not tell that.
W. A. Kirk, sworn with uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At Wilkensburg.
Q. What is your connection with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. I am a conductor on the Wilkensburg accommodation.
Q. Were you a conductor in July last?
A. Yes.
Q. How far is Wilkensburg from Pittsburgh?
A. Seven miles.
Q. How many trips do you make between these points a day?
A. Five round trips.
Q. What is your time for leaving?
A. The first trip in the morning we leave Wilkensburg at six-fifty-four, and get there at night at ten-fifteen.
Q. What time do you get to Pittsburgh?
A. Seven-thirty first, and leave at nine-forty, going out on the last trip.
Q. On the morning of July 19th, were you disturbed in coming in or going out?
A. No.
Q. When did you first learn of any difficulty or any strike?
A. When I came as far as Twenty-eighth street with the twelve-five train—coming in on that trip—with the train due at the depot at that time. I then heard of it. I had heard remarks of a strike, but heard nothing definite until I came in on that trip.
Q. What occurred on Friday?
A. I saw men standing around there on Friday, I did not see anything at all, except seeing men standing around.
Q. Were you molested in any way?
A. Not on Friday. I did not see anything unusual on Friday. No; I was not molested on Thursday in any shape, but on Friday they were around by hundreds. Parties that I did not know where they came from, and we could not do anything with them. They would get on the trains, and we could not do anything with them. They did pretty much as they pleased, and I saw that we had better keep quiet. They were riding between Twenty-eighth street and Lawrenceville and Torren's station, during Friday. They were just riding when it suited them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they seem to be?
A. They seemed to be mill men, as much as any thing else, from their appearance. They seemed to work somewhere where the sun did not strike them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. They refused to pay fare?
A. Yes; they paid nothing. On Saturday morning, coming in on the first trip, I did not see any of them. I had the usual run of passengers in that morning. Going out at nine-forty, I got a crowd on that covered the engine, and tank, and train, and every place. After I left Twenty-eighth street, I made up my mind between there and Lawrenceville that I would not go any further until I had got those parties off. I got to Lawrenceville, and went to the engine, and got a big coal pick, and then went to them, and said the first man that refuses to get off here, I am going to stick the coal pick in him. I found that they all got off, and seeing that I had it my own way with those on the engine, I thought I would try it with the others on the train. I did try it on them, and so pulled on to Millvale, when I did not have anybody on that did not pay any fare, and I kept that up all day Saturday, except one trip. On the half-past three trip, they were a little too thick. I threw them off, and knocked them off the train, and drove them off the engine with the pick. At Liberty, coming in on the twelve o'clock trip that day, I was about five minutes putting them off there. A crowd of them got on at Torrens. I got them all off, that did not pay any fare. My crew stood by me very well. During the whole trouble, if I had had a few more men on the train—I only had two of a crew—I could have cleaned them out all the time. I was not molested or troubled at all by the railroad men—that is on the train, in that way. I was told at Liberty, on Saturday night, that I could not run the train out the city there by one railroad man and one other.
Q. Who was the railroad man?
A. His name was Hice, and the name of the other was Smith.
Q. Smith was not a railroad man?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what his occupation is?
A. A one-horse stock dealer. He went around the country buying up calves. I do not know what he is doing now. He is under indictment at present.
Q. Was Hice in the employ of the company at that time?
A. He was when the riot commenced. He has not been since.
Q. You say you ran your train without carrying passengers that refused to pay fare except once. What day was that?
A. It was Friday that I could not do anything with them.
Q. Did you attempt on that day to eject those men?
A. I did, but I concluded it was not going to be very healthy, and I gave it up. They would not get off, and made all sorts of threats. I did not know any of them that made the threats. They threatened that if there was any putting off, they would be the parties to do it, and I would be the one to go off.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Can you tell us any of the occurrences of the riot?
A. I cannot, for I was just simply running on the train. I did not stop. The firing that took place at Twenty-eighth street occurred while I was out on a trip. They held me at Lawrenceville until it was all over and quiet, so that the track was clear when I came down. When I came in, there were not many there, but there was a big crowd there when I went out. I ran my train every trip except the last one, Saturday night. I went for information to the telegraph office, but could not get any, and I kept the train out there and did not make the last trip.
Q. During all the excitement you were free to run in and out?
A. Except a little detention waiting for the crowds to open. They would always get out of the road. Nothing was said to me by any person—by any employé, except this man Hice. He asked me once if I did not think I had better stop, and I told him I did not think I had, that I would go on as long as there was a track to run on, and make the trips, if I could.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any of these men except Hice, or did you hear any of the strikers talking?
A. Two or three railroad men—I do not know their names—went out on my train at three o'clock on Thursday afternoon; they were going out home. I asked them what the trouble was, but I got but little satisfaction out of them, no more than they were swearing at the double-headers; that was all I could hear.
Q. They were not taking part in the riot?
A. No; they said they were not going out, but they had nothing to do with the trouble. I think they went home, for I would see them still out down there when I went out. They were not in the crowds at all.
Frederick Fleck, sworn with uplifted hand:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At Spring Hill, on the line of the Pennsylvania railroad.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I am a locomotive engineer.
Q. Were you so engaged during the riots in July?
A. I was.
Q. Can you give the committee any information upon the occurrences that came under your observation?
A. On the morning of Thursday, the 19th, I started out on my usual time, at seven-twenty, with a coal train. I ran what is called the Pittsburgh coal train—making two round trips from Pittsburgh to Brinton's about eleven miles out. We left in the morning without any indication or sign of trouble on the road. Everything appeared to be going on as usual. There was no intimation of any trouble. Coming in on the road, about East Liberty or Torrens, we usually met the trains going out—the eight-forty's. We did not meet them. We should have passed them between those points. We did not know what was the matter, but thought there was some delay or no freight; but when we came to Torrens, some of the men about the stock-yards, by signs in this manner, [indicating,] showed there was a strike, as we understood; but we knew nothing definite until we got to Lawrenceville, and there ascertained there was a strike. We usually cut the engine loose on running by the upper round-house. There was a conductor came on the engine, and asked me if I was going out. I told him I certainly was, that I had no reason why I should not go out. He said the boys were on a strike, and they did not propose to let anybody go out.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Who was that conductor?
A. His name was Leech Reynolds.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was he an employé of the railroad company?
A. He was a conductor at that time.
Q. Do you know where he resides?
A. I think he then resided in the Twelfth ward. I did not pay any attention to him, whatever, and the train was dropped past, and I pushed on to the west end of the yard, as usual. I believe there were no objections to putting trains away that came in.
Q. Is Reynolds living in Pittsburgh now?
A. I think he is, although he is not employed at present. I paid no attention to the threats. I asked what would be the consequence if I did go out, and he said that I would get my neck broke. I smiled. I told him I did not know—that it was pretty hard to break, as it was short and thick. I went on to Lawrenceville with the engine and crew. We carry four men on that train. It is a train that does a great deal of work, and we require two flagmen. There was a great deal of work to be done on that train, as it is a double train, and we take local traffic. At Lawrenceville I started to go down the track, when the conductor and crew left the engine. I said, boys are you not going out? They concluded not to go out, that they did not want to be black sheep. I told them that I did not know that the double-header business interfered with us, and it was only a question of double-headers, so far as I knew. Nevertheless, they concluded not to go out. I then took the engine down, and reported that there was no crew to go out. This was about eleven o'clock on Thursday morning. In the meantime, there was some scuffling about there. I saw men rush back and forward, and there were some policemen there. I did not know what the trouble was, and went down to make some inquiries from Mr. Fox. I asked what the matter was, and was told that they were trying to arrest a man that had struck Mr. Watt. They had got hold of him, but he was limber as an eel. The engine was taken into the round-house. About two or three o'clock that afternoon, an attempt was made to take the double train out—what is called the Union Line. Conductor France was to take it out. He asked me what to do about the matter. I said he ought to judge for himself—you know your business—but, if I were you, I would attempt to take the train out, and if they won't let you, then you have done your duty. He is a rather bold, brave fellow, and sometimes would go further than other men would. He said, I have got shooting-irons, and if they stop me I may hurt somebody. They coupled up the train, but they were stopped at the lower round-house. There were some parleying there, and some difficulty. A crowd was there, of twenty or thirty or forty, stretched along from Twenty-sixth to Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Who were this crowd?
A. They were railroad men—I can hardly tell who they were—principally railroad men at that time. The order was given to start the train. I think Mr. Watt was there, and the engineers made an effort to start, but the crowd got in front and commenced swinging their hands, and I saw one man flourishing a revolver. I think his name was Harris. They stopped them, and the engineers got off, and the firemen, and the train did not move. That was on Thursday, about three o'clock. On Thursday evening the engineers called a meeting over Clark's hotel, and I went to see what action would be taken in regard to the strike. Up to that time I understood the engineers had not taken any part—that they were a kind of silent party, looking on. They met and discussed the matter pro and con for some time. The older men advised not to have anything to do with the matter, that it was a conductors' and brakemen's fight, and that they should be left to fight it out themselves; but some time previous to this, there had been a reduction of ten per cent., and the engineers had sent a committee to Philadelphia to the general office, to see what could be done about it. The committee returned, and they had accepted the reduction in good faith. I told the meeting that the men had consented to take the reduction, and that so far as the double-headers were concerned, they had run them before, and that there was no objection—that it did not require any less engineers or firemen to run the double-headers, and that it did not effect us in that respect, but before the meeting broke up some men came in under the influence of liquor, and got a little noisy, and the thing dropped until Friday morning. On Friday morning they had another meeting, and I also went to that. The older engineers thought that we could keep the men out of it—the engineers and firemen—but it appeared to be determined on the part of the majority of the freight engineers and firemen to go into the matter, and the meeting was postponed until three o'clock. They did not come to any conclusion. The majority of the men there that morning were opposed to the strike. They concluded to have another meeting in the afternoon; and I saw, with a few others, that a resolution would be adopted that they would go for the strike, so I did not go, and I advised some of the younger men that I knew, not to go near the meeting. This was at Engineers' hall. About one o'clock they had organized the meeting, but I was not down there. They sent a sub-committee to come up and take me down by force to the meeting. I refused to go. Then they organized and concluded to go into the Trainmen's Union, and they went into it, and went into the strike—that is the majority of our freight men—engineers. Up to that time I did not know of any organized committee or anything else waiting on the officers, and I told our men in the morning you cannot consistently demand anything until you see the officers and have a refusal. I told them you have not made any request, and you are going into this thing without making any request, and that you have violated the law at the start, and you cannot expect to be successful; but they said that the iron was hot, and that they were going to strike. So after that time until the trouble was over, I had nothing to do with the men. I staid there until Saturday evening, ready to go out. In fact on Saturday my engine was fired up and ready to go out. I never refused to go out because I had never quit the service of the company.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What kind of a meeting was this?
A. It was meeting of engineers and firemen.
Q. A secret organization?
A. No; it was an open meeting.
Q. Participated in by men belonging to this organization and others?
A. By the brakemen, conductors, engineers, and firemen, and all those that wished to be there. On Saturday evening the troops came up, and I was back and forward to the shops. I was up on Twenty-eighth street, but I saw no violent demonstrations, although there was a big crowd there. I suppose, though, if there had been any effort on Friday or Saturday, to send trains out, there would have been violence. Plenty of revolvers and fire-arms were displayed there, by plenty of men outside of railroad men.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Was it railroad men who flourished and displayed the revolvers and fire-arms?
A. I think the majority were outsiders.
Q. Were they citizens of the city of Pittsburgh, or strangers?
A. I don't know. I suppose they were citizens from the East End—from the east of the city. There were thieves, and robbers, and rogues, and tramps there from the whole country.
Q. Were they citizens of Pittsburgh, or were they strangers?
A. I think the majority of them were outside of the railroad employés. Whether they were glass-blowers, or puddlers, or citizens of any other occupation, I could not tell. The Pittsburgh troops were on good terms with the mob. Some were giving them muskets, and marching up and down with the mob, and eating hard-tack with them, and there was a good feeling, generally, between them. The report came that the troops were coming from Philadelphia, and that there would quite likely be trouble with them, because they were strangers here, and would not know the position of things here, but would obey orders. From that, I inferred that the Pittsburgh soldiers had not exactly obeyed orders. I only inferred that. This was the kind of tone or feeling around there. When the Philadelphia troops came marching up through the yard, my engine was out. I think that General Pearson was there at the same time that the Philadelphia troops came up from Twenty-eighth street. I think that General Pearson was, and I am positive about Mr. Cassatt. He said to me: Fred., are you willing to go out? I said: Certainly. I have never refused to go out. Certainly, on condition that the mob is dispersed. I would not like to run through it. I don't want to hurt anybody. He said: We don't want to send anybody out, until the mob is dispersed. I thought that if there was any determination displayed on the part of the troops, the mob would go away. Shortly after that, I was at the upper end of the lower round-house, half way between Twenty-sixth and Twenty-eighth streets. After the troops got up there, somebody made a speech—some one of the officers, or somebody—made a little speech, warning the people to go away, and disperse. I couldn't hear exactly what was said. Then I saw some of the soldiers come down shortly after that, and one of them, particularly, had the whole side of his face knocked off by a brick. They were the Philadelphia troops. Some of the others came down sick. I don't know whether they were sunstruck, or what kind of struck, but they were weak about the knees, some of them. Then, by and by, I heard a little bit of musketry rattling, and then heard them shoot in every direction, and saw the crowd dispersing in every direction—some running up the hill, and some up the railroad, and some down Twenty-eighth street. In a short time, nobody was there. The troops came down to the round-house, and were quartered there, with the Gatling gun put in position, off Twenty-eighth street. I heard one of the officers of the troops saying, that they could not stand it much longer—that they were yelled at and struck—that they had not come to Pittsburgh to hurt anybody, but that they couldn't stand it much longer. But General Brinton told them, in my hearing, that they shouldn't shoot at all. They had barricaded Twenty-eighth street. The troops were barricaded there. Guards were posted properly, I suppose; but they had no rations, and a good many of the men commenced to complain about something to eat—that they had only had a small lunch since they had left Altoona, or somewhere. Somebody remarked, that they would open up the Gatling gun on the mob, if it didn't quit throwing the stones and missiles at the men. This was about six o'clock. The General came, and said, I don't want a man to shoot, without the barricades are broken in. Stand back, and don't use any violence. I won't allow any shooting to be done, without, it is in self-defense. I remained there until half past eight or nine o'clock. The mob had gathered so thick that it was almost impossible to get through. From Penn up to Liberty, and from Twenty-sixth up to Twenty-eighth streets, there was a solid mass of people. At that time, the old telegraph office was shot into, and stones were thrown into it, and the only thing that prevented them from shooting everybody there, was simply because the street was so much lower, and they had to shoot up, and the balls struck in the ceiling. One or two of the soldiers were struck in the back by missiles, or with stones in the face. One of the officers was struck, and it kind of riled him. By that time, an order came to send to Union depot to take the fast line out. Nobody was about. They had the engine, but no engineer. Mr. White asked me to go down. I said I would, if I could. I tried to get out at the rear of the shops, but the mob would not let me out. An officer was called up to pass me out of the round-house. I said, if you let me out between the office and the old round-house, I can jump off the wall, and get down. Previous to this time, it was generally thought, in the crowd outside, that Mr. Pitcairn and some of the officers, (Mr. Watt,) were in the office—in the outer depot office. It appeared that there was an antipathy against these men, and they wanted to get at them. Some remarks were made that they had coffins for them, and others said: Get them out of there. Just such threats the mob would make. They seemed to have made up their minds that those men had ordered the double-headers, or the reduction, and they were going to take their revenge out of them. They were instructed so (the mob was) by the railroad men. I thought that they were up there. I didn't know they were away. I thought they were there. Then I jumped off the wall. In the act of jumping, I was fired at. I suppose some ten or twelve balls were fired at me by some men there who had no love for me.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Who fired?
A. The mob outside. I got out of the crowd and into the Union depot. I found then that it was countermanded—that the fast line was not to go out. I went into the depot, and I don't know who I found, now—but I found out that the train was not to go. I found Mr. Pitcairn there, and I told him I thought it was not a wholesome place for him, that he had better leave. I told him I thought that some of the men were disposed to do him some personal damage if they came across him, and from the way in which the mob or the crowd felt, I didn't think it would be very well for anybody to get in their way at that time. About nine o'clock there was somebody came and asked for volunteers to take an engine out to the outer depot, to take provisions up to the troops. I told them I would, and I waited for some time, and then I found out that they had come to the conclusion that it would not be safe to go up. I heard no more of it until morning. I staid with the engine during that whole night, and saw the fires getting brighter and brighter, and coming closer down. I staid there at Union depot until eleven o'clock Sunday, when I drew the fires out of the engine and left her standing there by the orders of the depot-master, and went home by the way of the Fifth avenue street cars. While waiting for dinner, my brother-in-law heard a train, and I went out on the road, and I saw a train coming backward. I gave a slight signal and the engineer stopped. It was not very hard to stop a train then. The conductor inquired what I wanted; he said that he was going out as far as Walls. I said I would like to go. It seemed that some of the troops were coming in and came as far as Torrens, and were ordered back. I went to bed early in the afternoon after getting there. I came in on Monday, and was at our head-quarters at Fast Liberty. I thought our foreman was there. I reported for duty. About noon he asked me to run the Walls accommodation train. I said, certainly, I will run the train. I run it—no, I did not go out that trip, for the man who had the engine refused to get off, although he had asked in the first place to get off. When I came he refused to give it up. He pulled out a pistol and displayed it, and refused to give the engine up, yet he had asked in the first place to be relieved. So I told Mr. Whetman, our foreman of the round-house. Well, says he, let him run it, but he told me sometime ago, that he was tired and wanted to be relieved. I remained there until afternoon, when I got orders to take the engine. I went down again, and said, I have orders to take this engine. So I took her and run her sometime—I run her that night from Thirty-third street to Walls and back on regular trips. But I didn't make the last trip. In the morning I came in at the usual time. When I came in, it appears that a committee had waited on Mr. Whetman, and told him to take me off that engine. I believe the man Reynolds told him that they would not allow me to run the engine. Then Mr. Henry took the engine and run one round trip, when Mr. Blender took her. But before this, I was to go to Lawrenceville to take a train down to find a committee of men to have a conference about the thing. Mr. Garrett got on the engine. I asked where I was to go at East Liberty. John Shires and McCullough, who were on, were both of this committee, and Mr. Garrett told me that these parties wanted to go down for this conference. Shires spoke up and said, we will give you orders where we want you to go—we are running this road now. In fact I did not know who was running it. I had nothing to say. Five or six more parties got on, and we came to Pittsburgh. Shires gave me orders to go on down. Things went on so all that week. No train went out until the following Sunday, when I was ordered to take the yard engine at Torrens, and load some stock.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Who was Shires?
A. He was a conductor on a shifting engine at that time. On Sunday we loaded some stock at Torrens I took the engine that usually did that work. Nobody was on her. I examined the fire and water, and found all right, and went to move the engine, when the engineer that had been on her came up and asked me what I was going to do. I said I had orders to run this engine. He said, I am running this engine. I said all right, and got off, and reported to Mr. Whetman. He said that the man had refused to move the stock; but said he would move passenger cars. He was not willing to move stock. He went down to the man and talked to him; but it appeared it had no effect. He would not do it. He came back and said, I want you to take that engine. I went down and tried to persuade the man. He was a man of family, and I thought he had better sense. I said to him this thing is all broken up, and it was a mistake from the start. This stock ought to be loaded, and I said you are taking revenge out of innocent parties. I said I don't know who will provide for your family if you are out of work, and I am confident if you won't work now they won't give you work when you want it. He said they would have to take him. He would not take the stock, so I took the engine and loaded the stock.
Q. Did they resist?
A. No; I had no crew then; so Mr. Scott, the agent at the stock-yards, and Mr. Gummey, volunteered to couple the cars and do the work. So he, and I, and Mr. Scott did the work. We loaded three or four double trains that afternoon.
Q. What class of men were engaged in the riot when it first broke out?
A. Well, so far as I know, I think it was caused by one man only refusing to go out—the flagman of that train.
Q. Of what train?
A. Of the eight-forty.
Q. On Thursday morning?
A. Yes; and I think the rest fell in kind of spontaneously as they came in off the road.
Q. Have you been able to gather anything from the men, showing that they had a pre-arranged plan for a strike that morning?
A. Not that particular strike. I understood a month or so before, that the Trainmen's Union had organized a strike for a certain time, but I don't remember the day or date. I know there was such talk among the men, that there would be a strike that day among the brakemen and conductors. There was nothing of the kind among the engineers, that I know of, because had the engineers held meetings at other places, I would have heard them speak of it. Previous to that time there was nothing among the engineers and firemen; but, the day passed over, and there was no strike; and, of this strike on Thursday, the 19th, I heard nothing of it—I knew nothing of it, and our crew knew nothing of it—at least they said nothing to me, and it appeared to be a surprise to them when we came in. Railroad men sometimes are very communicative; they generally let one know, directly or indirectly, what is in the wind. They generally know one among the other.
Q. Had they any secret organization?
A. I don't know what this Trainmen's Union is. It was a new thing to me. I heard of it, that is all. I believe that such an organization existed, and had for some time.
Q. Do you know the objects of the organization?
A. I don't really know—I never heard particularly—only from the talk of the men It was kind of protective or like all labor organizations—something of that kind—to unite the men together, and get them to act in unity.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was it of a beneficial character?
A. No.
Q. It was not like the engineers' organization.
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. It had no connection with it?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. I suppose it is secret?
A. I think it is.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. At the meeting you spoke of, did the engineers and firemen agree to go into that union?
A. I understood so, but I don't know it.
Q. Do you know whether the Engineers' Brotherhood assisted or encouraged this strike of the Trainmen's Union?
A. I don't know that they did. If they did, they violated their obligations. They might have been in sympathy.
Q. They took no formal action in the matter?
A. No; not up to that time.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You have stated that the strike was commenced by one man refusing to go out?
A. As far as I understand.
Q. At what time was the first effort made to prevent men from going out who were willing to go?
A. As far as I know—I was out on the road at that time that this refusal was made—that occurred sometime about eight o'clock in the morning. I left Pittsburgh at seven-twenty, and didn't get back until eleven o'clock. What transpired in the meantime, I cannot tell you. I know nothing about it, only from hearsay.
Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether it was discharged men or men in the employ of the company who would prevent others from going out, either by persuasion or by force?
A. I don't know that. I know that sometime in the afternoon, when that attempt was made at three o'clock, or thereabouts, there were employés and non-employés among the party.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. And some of them had been in the service of the company and discharged?
A. Yes; and some that had never been in the service.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you hear any talk about men coming from a distance?
A. It was generally supposed—at the time of the fire and riot, I was at Union Depot, and I saw them carrying off goods—hauling them off by wagon loads and wheelbarrow loads—men, women, and children—it was generally supposed that all the thieves that could get here in two days, from all the country around, had got here; and I suppose, everybody thought that the property had better be carried off than be burned.
Q. Can you give the name of the flagman who first refused to go out?
A. No.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Do you know whether the strike was confined to freight men entirely?
A. I think so; although some of the passenger men may have been in sympathy with them.
William Ryan, recalled:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Please state whether it was discharged men, or whether it was men who were then in the employ of the railroad company who first prevented the trains from going out, either by persuasion or by interference?
A. As far as I could see it was men still in the employ of the company. On the morning that this occurred they conversed about it. I suppose in that way they persuaded them not to go out.
Q. Was it known then what men would be discharged under this order?
A. No, sir; it was a mystery to all.
Q. Can you give us the name of the flagman who refused to go out first?
A. Harris, his name was. I gave his name in as Gus. Whether it was proper or not, I don't know.
John Alexander, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I am an engineer.
Q. In whose employ were you in July last?
A. In the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.
Q. As a freight engineer?
A. As a passenger engineer.
Q. On what train?
A. On the Walls accommodation.
Q. At what hours did you leave the Union depot?
A. In the morning, on the first trip, at six-twenty, and on the last trip leaving Pittsburgh, at five-twenty.
Q. What time did you arrive at Pittsburgh in the morning?
A. Eight-twenty-five.
Q. State whether you were interfered with on the morning of July 19?
A. I was not.
Q. When did you first learn there was any disturbance among the men?
A. About four o'clock that afternoon.
Q. How did you learn it?
A. I was coming down to go out on the five-twenty trip, and when I came to the round-house, above Twenty-eighth street, I saw a crowd of boys there. I asked what was going on—I asked somebody that I was acquainted with, and was told that the freight men were on a strike. That was, as near as I can tell, about four o'clock.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Robert Hardy.
Q. Do you know whether he was among the strikers?
A. I don't know.
Q. How large a crowd was assembled there?
A. I suppose about fifty persons. I thought that somebody was hurt by the Johnstown accommodation. It was just such a crowd as gathers when an accident takes place.
Q. Were they boisterous and noisy?
A. No; I didn't go into the crowd.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any of the men?
A. Nothing further than ascertaining what was going on. I went down to the lower round-house after my engine.
Q. Did you go out that night?
A. I did.
Q. Were you interfered with?
A. Not in the least—further than having to run carefully through the crowd.
Q. Were you present during the riotous conduct, on any of those days from Thursday morning?
A. I made my usual trips on Thursday and on Friday without any trouble, any more than this crowd getting on and off the engine between Torrens and Pittsburgh.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What kind of men were those?
A. The majority of them were not railroad men. They didn't appear to be accustomed to riding trains.
Q. Did they talk?
A. Only among themselves.
Q. What seemed to be their object?
A. They had no object, that I could see.
Q. Merely curiosity?
A. More curiosity than anything else.
Q. Have you any knowledge of new facts not related by the other engineers or conductors here who have testified?
A. Nothing. They have filled up all I can say.
Q. Can you give us any new light, as to the organization of the men or their plans of action, or the names of the prominent strikers?
A. I don't know the names of many of them.
Q. What do you know about the causes of the riot?
A. Nothing, only the double-headers.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you permitted to run the passenger trains without interference?
A. Until Saturday night.
Q. How about the freight trains. Were they permitted to run?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. They were stopped?
A. Except when I passed through with the train. I was not there. I didn't see the freight trains from that Thursday until the Sunday after running. I was aware of the fact that there was a suspension of business.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What was the difficulty with the passenger trains on Saturday night?
A. Coming in from the five-twenty trip, they told us that we couldn't go out again. Some men got on the engine and told me so.
Q. Do you know where those men were from?
A. I don't know. It was night, and I didn't pay much attention to their appearance.
Q. Were they miners, or mill men, or tramps, or railroad men?
A. They were not railroad men; they didn't talk like it, or look like it.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you hear any threats?
A. They only told me I was not to go out again.
Q, They only complained about the orders for running double-headers?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. These men gave no reasons for refusing to allow you to go out again on Saturday night?
A. No; I suppose they thought I knew.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did the men know of any reason why the double-headers were to be run?
A. I was not running freight.
Q. You know nothing about freight?
A. It was about that order I heard them talking.
Adjourned until to-morrow, at three o'clock, P.M.
Orphans' Court Room, Pittsburgh, Saturday, February 9, 1878
Pursuant to adjournment, the committee assembled at three o'clock, P.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.
The first witness examined was
Archibald Jeffrey, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. No. 32 Anderson street.
Q. How long have you resided there?
A. Going on three years.
Q. What is your business?
A. I am a machinist.
Q. Were you in the vicinity of the disorders that occurred, commencing on the 19th day of July last—that day or at any time following?
A. I was out there on the 22d—I believe that is Saturday evening.
Q. At what point?
A. About Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Tell us what you saw there?
A. There was a great deal of noise around there for awhile.
Q. Made by whom?
A. I can't just exactly tell who.
Q. There was a crowd there?
A. Yes.
Q. Composed of what classes?
A. Of most every class.
Q. How large a crowd was there?
A. I have no idea—I suppose a thousand or fifteen hundred men—I suppose so.
Q. How long before the burning was it that you speak about?
A. I went out there in the evening about five o'clock—along there—and I think the burning commenced about ten and a half o'clock.
Q. What was the conduct of the crowd at five or six o'clock, when you went there first?
A. That was after the shooting had been done out there.
Q. After the firing by the militia, you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the condition of the crowd at that time?
A. There was a lot of talking going on about the soldiers; but not being interested in the thing at all, I didn't pay much attention to it.
Q. What kind of talk was it?
A. They appeared to be angry about the soldiers firing at the crowd.
Q. Where was the crowd assembled then?
A. About Twenty-eighth street, near the crossing.
Q. Did you see anybody set fire to any car or building, or anything in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street?
A. I did see one man. He was the only man.
Q. Who was he?
A. Matthew Marshall.
Q. What time was that?
A. It was in the afterpart of the night. I can't say exactly.
Q. What was it he fired?
A. A car of coke.
Q. Where was the car standing?
A. On the track, about two squares above Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Just describe how he did it; where he got his fire; how it took place?
A. I don't know where he got his fire. When I noticed him first he was in the car. He had a bunch of shavings, and was in a sitting down position, and appeared to me to be kindling a fire. When the fire got kindled he jumped out. I saw him fifteen or twenty minutes afterwards. He was the only person I know of.
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No.
Q. Was anybody with him?
A. I didn't notice anybody with him.
Q. What was the result of the kindling of the fire?
A. If there had been no other fire it would have burnt that car up; but there was fire all around.
Q. Other cars were then on fire?
A. Yes; burning at the same time.
Q. What has become of Mr. Marshall?
A. He is in prison—over the river.
Q. At whose instigation was he arrested?
A. I can't say that myself.
Q. You were not present when the firing took place by the militia?
A. No.
Q. Did you see any other fires kindled?
A. I don't believe I did.
Q. Describe whether there were other fires going on then, and how they were kindled, and what the mob were doing, and describe all the circumstances that took place at that time?
A. There appeared to me to be a gang of men. I don't know who they were—whether railroaders or not.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did they seem to have any organized leaders, or were they directed by anybody?
A. It appeared to me they had at that time.
Q. Were they not running helter-skelter?
A. They were ordering each other around. I can't say whether they had an organization or not.
Q. Did it strike you that they had?
A. It did, at that time.
Q. That it was an organization?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Means:
Q. An organization without a head—do you mean to say that?
A. It appeared to me at that time that it was an organization, but I don't say it positively myself.
Q. Was there any particular party to command it?
A. Yes; it looked to me so.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What did the crowd seem to be aiming at, at that time—was it the destruction of property?
A. I can't say that. There was a great deal of destruction and thieving going on.
Q. Pillage and plunder?
A. Yes.
Q. What was said by the rioters?
A. I can't state.
Q. Was this firing confined entirely to railroad property?
A. It was at that time.
Q. Was there any attempt made by any one, so far as you saw, to fire private property?
A. No.
Q. It seemed to be confined entirely to railroad property?
A. Yes.
Q. This man Marshall you spoke of, was entirely alone when you saw him fire the car?
A. So far as I know.
Q. Nobody seemed to be acting in concert with him?
A. No.
Q. Did this coke car stand entirely alone?
A. It stood in a train. They kept running cars down, six or seven at a time, against each other. This came down with the rest of them.
Q. Describe that. The firing of this car would communicate to others?
A. Yes.
Q. After the car was fired, was it put in motion?
A. Not that I noticed.
Q. When you speak of running cars down, where were they running them from?
A. From out the road some place. I think it is down grade this way.
Q. Did the cars stop at Twenty-eighth street?
A. Above Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Near the round-house?
A. The round-house is on Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Did the cars stop near the round-house?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were the troops then?
A. I suppose they were in one of the round-houses.
Q. Do you know that to be a fact?
A. I walked down, and the guard was standing there. I suppose so.
Q. The cars that were run down, then, would stop somewhere near the round-house?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any effort made to fire the round-house, that you saw?
A. No; I didn't get near enough.
Q. Was there any attack being made upon the round-house by the mob at that time?
A. I can't say that there was. Not that I know of.
Q. Was there anything said by the mob about the soldiers being quartered in the round-house?
A. Not that I can remember.
Q. How long were you there?
A. I went out in the evening about six or seven o'clock, along there. I stayed along Liberty street and was once or twice on the railroad, and saw Marshall, and along Liberty street at four or five o'clock in the morning.
Q. How close to the mob?
A. I was twice, once or twice, upon the railroad.
Q. At what point on the railroad?
A. Just about where I saw this man.
Q. How far from the mob?
A. That just appeared to be—I stood along the edge of the railroad, and this car was on the second or third track, off the edge of the railroad.
Q. How many rods or feet from the mob?
A. Not more than five or six rods—something like that.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. You were in the crowd, were you?
A. No; not just in the crowd. I was standing looking at them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You were within five or six rods?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the crowd noisy and boisterous?
A. Yes.
Q. What did they appear to be saying?
A. I paid no attention to that.
Q. Did you hear them say anything?
A. I could hear them say a good bit, but it is a long time ago.
Q. What did they appear to be doing?
A. Dragging things off.
Q. What?
A. Goods and things.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was this man Marshall a railroad man or an outsider?
A. I never knew him to be a railroad man.
Q. Do you know anything about him at all—you knew the man?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Where did he reside?
A. He lived in the First ward, Allegheny, some place.
Q. Had you known him for years?
A. Yes.
Q. He had lived in Allegheny for some time?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What was his business?
A. He was a machinist.
Q. In whose employ was he at that time?
A. I don't know.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What were you doing there—what led you to go there?
A. I heard of the excitement, and I went down town and went out to see it.
Q. It was curiosity?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say that other cars were burning when this man Marshall fired this coke car?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time?
A. Yes.
Q. It was not the first car burned?
A. No.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were you there when the first car was fired?
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What kind of things were they dragging off—merchandise from the cars?
A. Yes.
Q. Were any railroad men among that party?
A. I don't know. I didn't know anybody but the one man.
Q. Did they have the appearance of railroad men—familiar with tracks and with getting on and going about cars?
A. I can't say that.
Q. You could not judge anything from their actions?
A. No.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. How long was Marshall sent to the penitentiary for?
A. Six years, I believe.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. In whose employ were you at that time?
A. In the employ of McIntosh, Hemphill & Co.
Q. Where are their works located?
A. Twelfth and Pike.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. How far were the other cars that were burning from this one?
A. They were close. There were cars all around, I suppose within thirty, or forty, or fifty feet.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. The crowd of spectators was not interfering with property?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You were there until five o'clock in the morning?
A. About that time.
Q. How large was the crowd there during the night—take an average.—I mean the crowd engaged in burning or pillaging or plundering?
A. I couldn't just give an idea.
Q. What is your opinion as to how large the crowd was—a thousand men or five thousand or ten thousand?
A. Two or three thousand.
Q. You mean that were about in the vicinity, and seemed to be taking part in the destruction of property?
A. If I were to give an estimate I would give you something that I don't know.
Q. Was there any effort made to stop the destruction of property during the night?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Was there any interference with it by any person?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. They were running things there themselves during the entire night?
A. It appeared so to me.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. You did not see any soldiers, except the guard at the round-house?
A. I saw the guard and two or three standing there with him.
Q. There were none active in trying to beat back the crowd?
A. No.
Thomas M. King, sworn with the uplifted hand:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Verona borough.
Q. You are officially connected with the Allegheny Valley Railroad—in what capacity?
A. I am superintendent of the river division.
Q. Did you occupy that position in July last?
A. Yes.
Q. State whether there were any differences between the Allegheny Valley Railroad Company and their employés, existing prior to the 19th day of July last?
A. There was some dissatisfaction among the men in regard to the ten per cent. reduction, but they all appeared to accept it.
Q. When was the ten per cent. reduction made?
A. The 1st of June.
Q. To what classes of employés did that apply?
A. To all classes receiving over a dollar a day.
Q. And to the officers, from the president down?
A. Yes.
Q. There was some complaint at the time?
A. Some dissatisfaction.
Q. Between the 1st of June and the 19th of July, was there any organization among the men, so far as you could learn, or any pre-arranged plan to strike?
A. There was nothing positive. I understood that quite a number of the men were joining what was called the Trainmen's Union.
Q. Did you know the object of the Trainmen's Union.
A. Of my own knowledge I did not. I understood it was being organized for the purpose of organizing a strike.
Q. Did you, as superintendent, have any communication with the men that you understood were joining the organization in relation to it?
A. A short time before the strike, three or four of our men, I understood, were very active in it, and I think I suspended one or two temporarily, and talked to some others about it. My information just previous to the strike led me to suppose that our men were not going to stand by it, or were withdrawing—that they would not go into the strike.
Q. Did you get that information from conversation with your men?
A. Yes.
Q. With what class of employés?
A. Conductors and engineers.
Q. What class seemed to be most dissatisfied with the reduction?
A. Generally those of the lower grade of pay—such as brakemen; that class of men.
Q. When did the first strike occur on your road?
A. I think on Monday morning, the 23d, I believe.
Q. What class of men struck first?
A. I would qualify the other statement by stating that on Saturday, about ten o'clock, I got a message stating that the shop men had held a meeting and determined not to work any longer without the ten per cent. was restored. We went out and called the men together, and Mr. Shinn, our vice president, made a speech, and explained the situation to them, and they held a meeting and agreed to stand by the reduction and go to work again. That was the first difficulty we had. On Monday, I think was the first refusal, on the part of the train men, to perform service.
Q. What was said and done to get the men to resume work?
A. On Monday, I went down with an empty train, and turned up Pike street. There they drew up, and I went on to the shops. We had a street engine that far. After getting to the Thirty-fourth street station, I was surprised to see a road engine standing there. I imagined, at once, there was going to be a difficulty, and I got off the engine and walked up to the round-house, and there was quite a large number of our men congregated there. I spoke to them, and asked them what this meant. None of them made any reply. I told them that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company had made some arrangement with their men, and that, of course, we would be governed by any arrangement made on the trunk lines. I told them they were foolish to go into the strike in the midst of the excitement—that it would do them no good. I then asked one of the engineers to go on the express engine standing there, and take her out. I got no reply. I said: "Boys, I am very sorry you are acting badly, and if you don't take the engine out, I will have to take her myself." I got on the engine and took her out, and made a coupling on a train and started. In the meantime, one of the firemen came down and got on with me. By the time I got up to the round-house, one of the engineers came and took the engine from me.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You don't mean took it forcibly?
A. Oh, no. I went back to the men, and by that time quite a crowd was gathered around, and there was a great deal of excitement. There were a great many people around that I never saw before. The men said they were going to call a meeting. I told them as a great many strangers, apparently, were around, I would sooner they would go away from the shops, and call their meeting at some other place where they could do it quietly. They did so, and concluded that they would not go to work. I succeeded in running all the trains that day that I cared about running.
Q. How did you accomplish that?
A. By working myself, and by calling on the dispatchers and two or three of the engineers. The next day a great many strangers were in our yard, apparently influencing our men. I sent for some of our men, and told them that I could not understand their conduct, that we had always endeavored to treat them kindly and squarely, then they said it was not their fault, that they were forced into it, and were doing what they did by intimidation; that it would be as much as their lives were worth to undertake to run those trains. By Tuesday noon I had a great deal of difficulty in getting the passenger trains to run. The men would be scared off and desert them. I gave the men notice on Tuesday afternoon, at three o'clock, that if they wanted the onus of stopping all the passenger trains on our road, they would have to do it—that we would not be justified in undertaking to run trains and run the risk of having an accident occur to them by their refusing to perform their duty.
Q. What action did they take then?
A. They called a meeting about four o'clock. I sent up to that meeting and asked them to send me down a man to take out the passengers that had come into the city that morning, so that we could get them home. I could not get any person to do that, and had to do it myself. I took the train out. That evening there was a committee waited on me with a proposal that they would run two of our trains—would select the crew to take charge of them. I had been unable to get any protection whatever either from the military or civil authorities.
Q. Did they carry out that arrangement?
A. I sent a request to the committee of public safety, and had also gone and seen General Brown, personally, to get some protection for our shops, and also some ammunition for a company that we had at Verona guarding our property there. General Brown said he could give me no assistance, whatever, and so far as his ammunition was concerned, he had but very few cartridges for his command. He, however, gave me forty, and an order to gather up the company at Verona, and place them on duty there. He said he could not allow any troops to be sent out of the city at all, as he deemed it of more importance to keep them in the city than to send them on the outskirts. From Mr. Thaw, I learned also, that the committee of public safety had declined to send any persons. After the men had made their proposal, I notified them that I would give them an answer in the morning, and started up to the east end and saw Mr. Shinn, our vice president, and submitted their proposal to him, and explained the position we were in—that we could get no protection either from the civil or military authorities, and that if our men were willing to work, I thought it would be prudent, on our part, to submit to the men until such times as the authorities could regain control. He agreed with me, and authorized me to let the men take charge of the trains and run them, so as not to stop the United States mails. The trains were run under the charge of the men for two days—Wednesday and Thursday. On Friday, we took charge of the trains ourselves again. We ran the passenger trains on Friday and on Saturday—all we desired to, and notified the men on Saturday that we proposed to commence running trains on Monday. And I advised all the men that desired to retain their positions, and who wanted to go to work again, that if they would come down on Monday and take their trains they could do so.
Q. How many responded on Monday?
A. We had some difficulty up until two o'clock, and I was compelled to employ a few new men. After that, the men saw that we were determined, to start the business on the road again, and the majority came in, and we had all the men we wanted.
Q. Did you have any assistance from the military at any time?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it?
A. I think on Thursday night. I went down to General Brown, and got an order from him to bring the company that was at Verona, doing duty there, to Forty-third street. He also sent a detail of cavalry from the city, and we took charge of the road on Friday morning, and started our trains.
Q. I understand it was on Tuesday you made the application to him.
A. On Monday night and Tuesday both.
Q. The troops were refused?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it you made application to the citizen's protective committee?
A. On Tuesday, Mr. Paul came to me, and told me. He said: "Mr. King, you are running a great risk. There is a great deal of excitement, and I have heard a great many threats, not only against you, but your road." I think it was at nine o'clock in the morning—between nine and ten. I said to him: "Mr. Paul, you see the condition of things here. If you can do anything with the committee of public safety, I think you should go and explain our position to them." He remarked to me that he had heard some threats among the men on Butler street, about burning the bridges and destroying property, and, also, some threats against me personalty, on account of my having been running trains out. The men were afraid to take them at the station, on account of the threats made against them. I could not get the trains run out, but as soon as I would get out of the city limits, an engineer would come forward, and relieve me. In that way, we were enabled to keep the passenger trains going.
Q. Who was Mr. Paul?
A. He was a neighbor of mine, living at Verona—of the firm of Metcalf, Paul & Co.—a member of that firm.
Q. Did you see any of the committee of public safety?
A. No. I was very busy, watching our property, and could not get down town during the day. Everybody was excited, and there were a good many outsiders around.
Q. Did Mr. Paul report to you after seeing the committee?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who he saw of the committee of public safety?
A. He did tell me, but I don't recollect now. I think he went in before the committee, and made a speech to them, and explained the situation—at least, that is my recollection.
Q. What kind of assistance was the committee of public safety rendering at that time?
A. I can't answer that. They were organizing the citizens into companies, for the purpose of protecting the city.
Q. Mutual protection?
A. Yes. The night I drove out to see Mr. Shinn the whole city appeared to be patrolled. It was midnight, and I was halted at almost every corner. The citizens were all apparently out.
Q. Were they armed?
A. Yes.
Q. On Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, were your men all at work?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did the shopmen quit work on Saturday?
A. At the usual hour.
Q. What is that hour?
A. Half past five in the evening. Mr. Shinn was there at half past two or three, and called the men together, and made a speech. I left then, and I think they all returned to work.
Q. Did I understand you to say that all the trains, both passenger and freight, were running on Saturday?
A. Yes; we sent out the night trains on Saturday evening, after the trouble had commenced.
Q. Was the same order issued by your company that was issued by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, as to running double headers?
A. There was no necessity for it on our road.
Q. The only reduction in any way was the ten per cent. reduction, on the 1st of June, on your road?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you any reason to apprehend any strike, prior to the breaking out of the one here among your men?
A. No; I had an assurance from quite a number that they would not go into the strike.
Q. Did you receive any order from Colonel Grey upon Captain Patterson to furnish you with men?
A. I think that is the order I referred to. I went and saw General Brown, and he gave me an order to Captain Patterson, to get the men together and report for duty at Verona shops.
Q. On Tuesday?
A. Yes; I am not sure whether it was Monday night or Tuesday. My recollection is, it was Monday night, but probably it was Tuesday.
Q. Did he give you the order when you first saw him—the first time he was called upon?
A. I was to see him two or three times during that period, and I am not positive about it. I think it was the second time; it may have been the first. I am not positive.
Q. Did he make any refusal the first time you saw him?
A. I explained to him, that we had a guard of seventy-five men, that we had organized ourselves at Verona, among whom were some of the Verona company, but they had no ammunition. I think that the General said to me, if I could get that company together, he would let it remain, but he could not send any troops from the city hall.
Q. Did he state his reasons?
A. He deemed it more important to keep the command together than to separate them.
Q. Did you make any application to the mayor or sheriff of the county for aid?
A. No; we did not need it until after the riot. It was only from the desire to protect our men who were willing to work. And I had been advised on Monday or Tuesday of some incendiary speech, made among the miners, and I looked for some trouble among them.
Q. Was any of the property of the Allegheny Valley railroad destroyed?
A. Nothing but a baggage car at Union depot and the tracks running in front of the round-house where we approached Union depot.
Q. Had you any number of cars there at the time the burning occurred?
A. I think we had about two hundred south of Forty-third street.
Q. Were any of them laden with freight?
A. Some with ore; the merchandise cars I removed Sunday night myself. Word was sent to me that the men were going to burn the freight station.
Q. Were you interfered with in any way?
A. No.
Q. In the interviews you had with your men before the strike—between the 1st of June and the strike—what reasons did the men give for their anticipated strike?
Q. They were dissatisfied with the reduction of wages. There had been one the previous year or so, and this one coming in that time, made them very much dissatisfied.
Q. How long before was the other reduction?
A. I think in 1874 or 1875.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Is it not a habit for the men, when their wages are reduced, to complain?
A. Oh, yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was it deemed necessary on the part of the company to make that reduction?
A. The board of directors thought so.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Had there been a falling off in business?
A. The business was very irregular and spurty. Sometimes we were running all the trains we could, and then they would drop off. And rates were not so good as they had been.
Q. From your position, you should judge that was the reason why the reduction was made?
A. I should judge it was a necessity on the part of the management to do it, on account of the condition of the trade of the country.
Q. There had been strikes in other parts of the country before this trouble occurred here—for instance, at Martinsburg?
A. I believe so—from newspaper reports.
Q. Did you have any consultation with the railroad authorities when this occurred—or did you take any measures to avert this?
A. So far as we were concerned, we did not anticipate it.
Q. You had no anticipation of any trouble on your road?
A. There had been some talk in regard to the train men's union, that it was for the purpose of getting up a strike. But many of our men, I understood, were withdrawing from it, and would not lend themselves to anything of the kind. For that reason I did not anticipate any trouble among our men.
Q. Do you know whether there was any aid asked of or any consultation held with the authorities before the strike came about?
A. I cannot answer that. I was not in the city that day.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How did the business that the road was doing for three months prior to June 1st, when the reduction was made in wages, compare with the same three months of the year before?
A. My recollection is that our average may have been a little heavier, but I am not positive about that.
Q. In the three months preceding June, 1877.
A. Yes; our business is spasmodic. It is the oil business. A part of the year they are doing a good business, and then it drops off to nothing.
Q. How did the prices for the carrying of freight compare in 1877 with those in 1876?
A. I cannot answer that. I did not make the rates.
Q. Had there been any change in rates, so far as you know?
A. My impression is that the rates in 1877 were lower than in 1876. I want to say here, that our shifting engines handling freight on the street had been interfered with two or three times during Saturday morning by the crowd going down Twenty-eighth street, and sent back. I walked out the street, from Eleventh street to Forty-third—between eleven and twelve o'clock. I saw that there was a very considerable excitement among the people, and a good deal of feeling. From there I went up on to Twenty-eighth street, where the strikers were in possession of the track. I saw but very few people there that I knew. Some faces were familiar to me. I came back to the office, and got a report about the action of the men at the shop, and went out there at half-past two o'clock, and on my return I walked up to the Pennsylvania railroad shops, and found the troops were moving out. I went in through the yard, and followed in the rear of the column. After the troops reached the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street, I got up on a car right in the rear of them, and I watched their movements—the formation of the command. The crossings were cleared. I saw a few stones thrown among the crowd, and I saw a man with a cap on—saw him draw a pistol, and fire into the troops.