REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE Railroad Riots IN JULY, 1877. (continued 12)

Q. Did they claim a right to stop trains—interfere with trains?

A. Of course, they didn't to me. They were men of too good sense. They denied having anything to do with it. It was always somebody else. As I said, they were there giving countenance.

Q. How did these people define a strike?

A. They said this was not a strike of the engineers. This was a strike of the firemen—the firemen and brakemen, I believe. They threw it on them. I thought things were settled, and they were going to work. I came up and said, "Boys, how is it, I thought you were going to work" They said they were going to have a meeting, and asked me to go with them. I said I would go. They said they were going to have it then. I went down to the meeting in the Odd Fellows' Hall, and went in with them, and was there, and they denied that it was them solely. They said the engineers had as much to do with it as they had—just the same—and that they were encouraging them. I stated to them, then, that I would do all I could to have their pay made right, but there was only one way to do it, that I could see, and that was to report themselves ready for work, and take their positions, and after the road was once running, and in order, then the citizens would see to it that their case was properly represented, and that they would be more likely to get their rights in that way than in any other.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. At this time they had possession of the railroad property?

A. They disclaimed having possession of the property. They would not admit that fact. They appeared to understand that that was in violation of the law.

Q. Was that the fact?

A. This was the fact—there was no doubt of that. You could not get any of them to admit it, though.

Q. Did they understand that they had no right to interfere with the running of trains, or with any other employé who desired to work?

A. They denied interfering with any employé. There never was a man yet that said he interfered with any one—never got an admission of that kind from any one. They said if a man wanted to go to work, there was his engine. At the same time, Mr. Layng, superintendent of the road, whilst he was but a few squares from the depot, I think he didn't care about going over to the railroad at that time, I met them the same day, and they went and reported themselves to the officers at the outer depot, and went to work.

Q. From the interviews that you had with the railroad employés, what did you gather as being the cause—the real cause of the strike?

A. From all I could gather from the employés in one way or another, my impression is that it was an organization. That perhaps the strike was a little sooner than was intended. It was a regular organization, intending to make a general strike throughout the whole country at the same time, and it was not the intention to be commenced at Pittsburgh. I think it was all over our country. We might call it an insurrection of these people to take possession and enforce their demands on the people. They then knew that the other labor organizations were in sympathy with them.

Q. What led you to that conclusion?

A. From the fact that these uprisings at Fort Wayne and Chicago and St. Louis, and on the line of the Baltimore and Ohio and Altoona and Harrisburg and Philadelphia. If it had been of an ordinary character, it would have had no influence, except where it originated.

Q. Did you ascertain from the men that there was any communication between the rioters here and the rioters at the other places you have mentioned?

A. I think one told me that they were in possession of the telegraph lines, and knew all that was going on, and one stated to me at one time something like this: He says, "We knew what was going on, because one of the men with us is an operator, who stood outside of the window, and he could hear the instrument and could tell us what was going over the line." I think they had possession of the telegraph line, and a good many were operators.

Q. He told you they knew what was going on—that was between the authorities, &c., in reference to the matter; but did he say that they had any communication through the rioters themselves by telegraph?

A. No; I do not know that any one admitted anything of the kind. They were very careful in making any admissions. These men you will find, so far as the law was concerned, they really understood that as well as any other class of men, where they are liable and where they are not.

Q. The strikes at Fort Wayne and Chicago and Altoona and Philadelphia that you have mentioned, were not until after the strike here—were they?

A. I think it was almost simultaneous—it was very nearly the same time—on the Sunday following right along—immediately on the heels of it, and I should think it was all during two or three days.

Q. Do you know what days the strike was at its height in Chicago?

A. No.

Q. Nor Fort Wayne?

A. I have no recollection now of just when this was, for I took no note of that.

Q. Nor in Philadelphia?

A. Nor in Philadelphia. I think it was unfortunate that they attempted to start these trains out—these double-headers here on Saturday.

By Mr. Yutzy:

Q. Why?

A. Because there were so many men loose—the laboring men of our town—you may say that certainly four fifths of the laboring men were unemployed after twelve or one o'clock, and that is the best reason I could give you for it. If I was going to do anything to a crowd, I should have postponed it until these men were at work. I think it was unfortunate, because, as I stated before, we all knew of the existence of these organizations, and we knew that these men that were in these organizations were all in sympathy, the one with the other.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Was the fact that there would be so large a number of unemployed men on Saturday afternoon, known to the railroad officers?

A. I do not know that of my own knowledge. Mr. James Park, I think, told me that he had remonstrated with some of the railroad officials—I think he had spoken to Mr. Cassatt on the subject.

Q. Did you have any conversation?

A. I had no conversation on the subject, because I was engaged and busy on Saturday, and was not alarmed in regard to this. Mr. Park's manufacturing establishment was in the immediate vicinity of the trouble, and you might say he was in it. He was located right in it, and he was there, and I think what I say in regard to that, will be the testimony of every manufacturer in the city. I believe if the thing had been left until Monday or Tuesday, that the probabilities are that men would be generally about their employment at one thing or another, that there might have been no burning here at all. We might have had trouble and loss of life, and things of that kind. Why I say I think there was an organization, when I went home on Saturday night, coming up after dark, they were expecting this train in. These men certainly knew that train was coming with soldiers, and they were prepared to meet them. They were orderly—a quarter of a mile below, at the bridge—there appeared to be entirely too much order for a riot. When there is a riot, they generally do things up very quickly, without regard to who is in the way. These men were orderly and systematic.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. This train you speak of—was that train from Erie?

A. I think that was the Erie train. Mr. McCullough told me he expected that train in. I was informed that they had no ammunition or anything of that kind.

Q. These men you conversed with gave as a reason for their strike that the wages were so low they could not live?

A. That was the general complaint.

Q. Do you know what they were actually getting?

A. I did know, and I had it from the railroad officials—I had it from them, but I have forgotten what it was.

Q. Were any of them getting less than a dollar a day—trainmen?

A. I think they were paid by the trip, but I do not recollect that any of them were getting less than that. I would not speak positively in regard to that. It may be possible. I have a memorandum of that in my pocket-book. I never expected to be called before a committee, or I would have saved some of these things that I had. It may be I have something here that will enable me to answer that question.

Q. If you find it hereafter you can send it to us, and we can attach it to your testimony.

A. It was a copy of a telegraph—you asked me a question; it would have answered it. It was a copy of a telegraph I had sent to Mr. McCullough on the subject, and his reply to it, but I think that, supposing that the thing was ended, my impression is that I have destroyed it.

Q. Have you anything else to communicate, Mr. Bennett?

A. Nothing; but I would bear testimony to the fact that the citizens of Pittsburgh appeared to be anxious to do everything they could to put down this riot, and there was no sympathy with the rioters—none whatever.

Q. You had a good deal to do in raising the force of citizens to put down the riot?

A. I had, perhaps. The first move, I told you, was on Sunday. A good many of my most intimate acquaintances were among the rolling mills, and quite a large number of them were out of the city. I sent for Mr. Park.

Q. Did you meet with any opposition in your efforts to raise the men?

A. Not a single instance. Upon the contrary, every man I saw was anxious to do anything, and were willing and did go up there at the risk of their lives, to do everything they could do, and no man I met anywhere at all, among my own acquaintances, but what were ready to do anything they would deem in reason, to try to stop it; and I think it was stopped by the citizens at last. I was not present, but from what I heard afterwards, the citizens prevented the burning of the Fort Wayne depot.

Q. Was there any move by the citizens prior to Sunday morning?

A. Not that I know of. I have no knowledge of any—no recollection of any now. It was early Sunday morning that they set fire to things in the first place, and the citizens appeared to be completely paralyzed. I saw men coming along, carrying provisions, bacon, hams, and articles that they had taken from the cars they had broken open—carrying them away back two or three miles into the country, and I saw them walking along the streets, and it appeared to me that people were afraid to say a word to them. They were alarmed—they did not know what to make of it. It appeared to come upon them like a clap of thunder—they were unprepared for it in any way. I never saw men labor more earnestly, and labor harder to try to do their whole duty than that citizens' committee did. It was through their individual efforts that there was an additional police, and it was by private subscription to pay these men, that they were put upon the force. Our city was in a helpless condition, and these bad men, of which we have a large number around the city—they knew exactly what the police force was, better than we did.

Q. Did you know the police force had been reduced in the city, and, if so, when were you informed of that fact?

A. I had no knowledge that our city was in so helpless a condition. I was amazed when I heard it.

Q. Was it known to the business men—I mean generally—that your city was in such a condition, in regard to the police force?

A. I do not think they generally understood the matter. They might have been under the impression that there was a reduction of police, but so few——

Q. Was it the subject of conversation when it became known?

A. Of course it was, and the very moment it was discovered, they sought to apply the remedy by making contributions of money themselves, to have the force put on, and agreeing to pay for it.

Q. Did you have any talk with the mayor yourself in relation to that subject?

A. 1 did, at his office. He told me then that he had no power to do anything, but expressed a willingness and a desire to do anything he could, and I do not think that any suggestion I made to him, he ever refused to do anything it was in his power to do.

Q. What day was that?

A. I had a conversation with him on Sunday, and again on Monday, and as I met him at different times, I would have a talk with the mayor.

Q. Was it known to you that the mayor had full authority and control over the police, to increase the number of police, or to call out—was it known to you that he had the same authority that the sheriff had in calling out the police?

A. No, sir; it was not.

Q. Did he make any proclamation calling for police?

A. He made some proclamation. I cannot tell you what it was—do not recollect what it was.

Q. Did you ever examine to see what powers are given to the mayor by your city charter?

A. I did not in regard to Allegheny City. After Sunday, I was more with Mayor Phillips, and more on that side than I was on this. I believe Colonel Scott telegraphed to me himself, and said that they would commence laying the tracks, if their men would be protected, and I went to Mr. Shinn and got him to send an answer to him that they would be, and I would lay the matter before the committee the next morning. Immediately on the committee convening, I brought the matter before them, and the committee answered Colonel Scott that they would be protected. I went out of the committee myself, and started up to meet Mr. Pitcairn at the office of Mr. Layng, and stated to Mr. Layng in regard to that telegram, and my own impression that they should put the men on to work to feel their way, and if they were interfered with to withdraw them, that I believed that before night would come that they would have more men than they would know what to do with, and that was the result. I spoke of being out on Sunday and not seeing any of the officials of the railroad at all. I think they did right. I do not think it would have been prudent for them to be there. I advised those I knew to keep away. You could not tell to what extent this excitement would lead a man, nor you could not tell how bad men were. They might have been seriously injured, if not killed, if any one of them had gone into a crowd of that kind.

Q. Would the presence of the railroad officials have tended to exasperate the crowd, do you think?

A. Yes, sir. I don't think it would have been safe for them to have been there. I think it would have exasperated them.

Q. Where was Adjutant Latta during the day—Sunday?

A. I think he was at the Monongahela house, with Cassatt—I think he was there.

Q. Until what hour?

A. I was introduced to him when I took Mr. Cassatt across to Allegheny City. It must have been between eleven and twelve o'clock. I left him there, and I was not back to the Monongahela house after that. I learned they had gone down the river to Beaver. I think General Latta was along. There was a number of gentlemen there. Mr. Cassatt was anxious in regard to the soldiers that they had. I did not know the condition of them, nor did he—how these men that had come from Philadelphia were. He appeared to be under the impression that they had got out, and had neither provision nor ammunition, and I said that I could fix a way that they could have the supplies—that there were parties in Allegheny who would attend to that. I went down on Monday to Mr. Ray, and he sent them out provisions, and told me afterwards that they had removed their head-quarters, and he had followed them up to Blairsville, and had delivered them cooked provisions.

Q. Who is Mr. Ray?

A. He is a grocer on Liberty street.

Q. In Allegheny City?

A. No, sir; Pittsburgh.

Q. Would it have been prudent for the Adjutant General to have remained in the city during the day, Sunday?

A. To have gone into the crowd?

Q. Yes; or remained in the city?

A. I do not think there would have been a hair of his head harmed.

Q. Would it have been prudent for the other State officials?

A. If they had remained at the Monongahela house they would not have been disturbed.

Q. If the Adjutant General had gone to the scene of the riot, would he have been disturbed?

A. I think there would have been danger. Any man went in at the peril of his life—any officer went in single-handed, alone.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You have a very extensive knowledge of what transpired here during the riots. I want to know whether, in your opinion, there was a disposition on the part of the city and county authorities to protect property and to suppress the riot. If so, could they have done so?

A. I have not any doubt in my own mind, but the——

Q. Not the citizens. I am speaking of the city and county officials?

A. In regard to the county officials, I was not with them. So far as my knowledge goes, I was acquainted, at the time, from talking as I would with Mr. Barr, or Slagle, or any of the gentlemen, and I believe they were all anxious to try to prevent any loss of life or property, and do all that was in their power.

Q. And could they have done so, if they had made a vigorous effort to do so—protect the property and prevent the lawlessness?

A. After the riot got started they could not have done it. If we had the full force we would have only had about two hundred policemen, and they would not have been able to have done very much, and the sheriff could not have done very much by calling upon the people and telling them that he wanted them to stop. Nothing but imperiling their lives. They would keep away from him. I do not think he had much chance of doing anything.

Q. It is only a matter of opinion?

A. You could readily understand that those men, with the force that they could command, would be small in comparison. After the firing I have no doubt the report that there was ten or twenty killed, where there was one, did create a fearful excitement, and I do not think any sheriff of any county could have done anything at all that would have stopped it, after it had once got started as it had on Sunday morning.

By Mr. Englebert:

Q. Did you take any active steps prior to Saturday evening?

A. No, sir; I did not really feel very uneasy about the matter until Saturday afternoon, when I learned—I was not taking much interest in the matter, and I got very much this way—the railroad people, this was a matter they were tending to, but that there was going to be any riot—there might be some quarreling, fighting, or something of that kind, but I didn't expect there was going to be anything of the magnitude it was. On Saturday, I felt concerned about the matter, and the reason for being concerned was, that I knew that the manufacturing establishments were idle, and the men were off work, and that they were there, and if you have had anything to do with iron men, you know they are a class of men who are easily excited.

Q. You, as a business man, would have closed up all business at that time, under this state of excitement?

A. As a business man, when I found it was necessary to get the military in there, I would not have undertaken to have done that on Saturday afternoon. I would have waited until the men were employed on Monday, or Tuesday, and then there would not be the danger that there was in doing it on Saturday.

Q. The majority of men being off, of course there was great travel on the streets?

A. Yes, sir.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You felt satisfied and easy that there would not be any disturbance up to Saturday—why did you feel easy and satisfied that there would be no trouble up to Saturday?

A. I understood that the military were here, and that would intimidate them. I was tending to my own business, and really. I had not gone out at all to see what was going on on the railroad, although we have a mill opposite, within a mile, perhaps, of the outer depot, across the river, and I came back and forward and everything was quiet; but when I heard of the loss of life and of the firing, which, I think took place on Saturday, and the men coming across and going into the gun shops in the town, breaking them open and destroying them, then I felt that there was danger, because there is this fact: there is a large number of men that were through the war that are not afraid as those who have never smelled powder—they are not very much afraid of it, and they are brave men, and if you understood that there is danger, they say "we know," and you cannot do anything with them. The idea was this: The first I heard of it that they had shot into a crowd, killing men, women, and children indiscriminately. These men are men who are ready to believe anything of the kind, and they will believe what is said among themselves quicker than they would from you or me or anybody else on the outside. They were excited and exasperated, and then you cannot control them, but the men about our mills are not bad men, all of them. We have bad men there and they will get into the mills, but I do not think there is a better class of men anywhere than in Pittsburgh. My own theory is, that these tramps along the line of the railroad had a knowledge of this strike, and might have been congregating in here for two weeks, and these men are always ready to apply the torch at any moment. They came in here and got into it. I think a great many of the railroad men had nothing to do, and had no idea whatever of getting anything but their wages—no idea of any loss of life or destruction of property; but when they got in there they had no control of this thing, and they did not know themselves whether the men that had been in the lodge room, perhaps, were with them or against them. The people were paralyzed at the magnitude of this thing.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You have a general acquaintance and knowledge of the manufacturing interests of this State. Is there a larger proportion of employés in the manufactories and mining in this vicinity than there is elsewhere in this State?

A. I think there is; I am not familiar with any place where the proportion is so large as it is just here in our city.

J. Howard Logan being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you live?

A. Lincoln avenue, Allegheny.

Q. What is your occupation?

A. 1 have a foundry in New Brighton. Doing business in Pittsburgh.

Q. State whether you were with Doctor Donnelly on Sunday, the 22d of July?

A. I went to the meeting at the old city hall, in Market street, four o'clock, Sunday afternoon, and joined the citizens' organization to go up and stop the riot and firing. We had great trouble getting arms. At first we went to the university, and failed to get them there. Then went down and got pick-handles from a hardware store on Wood street. After that we were marched up to the university again, but failed to get them, and from there we went to one of the armories of the Fourteenth regiment or Nineteenth, and failed to get any arms there. We marched back again to the university, and we got some old rusty muskets, with bayonets. There were plenty of men willing to go; but being marched around from one place to another they dropped off. We got these old muskets, and had about a hundred. We marched down to the mayor's office, and from there we went up Liberty street to Wood, right into the midst of the crowd, and attempted to form a line right across Liberty street, at the edge of the crowd; but we were surrounded, individually, and failed to do that. Doctor Donnelly, who was leading, seemed to have lost control of the men, and seemed to be very much excited. We stayed there about ten minutes without accomplishing anything, except having pistols at our heads all around, and nothing to defend ourselves with but these rusty muskets.

Q. Without any ammunition?

A. Without any ammunition or anything else. Probably one or two of the party, or a few of them, had revolvers, but the majority of us had not.

Q. What did you do then?

A. We got started, and about half of the company went out, and the balance of us turned around and came out then, feeling that we were whipped.

Q. Then you had not the means to cope—arms or weapons to cope with the crowd?

A. No, sir. There were a number lost their muskets in wrestling with the crowd, but they were willing to fight or do anything to hold on to them, but we were powerless because we had nothing to defend ourselves with.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were the muskets wrenched from their hands?

A. In some cases they were.

Q. Did your men fight them, or use the bayonet?

A. Didn't use the bayonets. We held on to them, and pulled them away. It was very fortunate for us that there were no pistol shots fired, or we would all have been cut to pieces, because all the crowd were armed, and we were not.

Q. If you had had a bold, deliberate leader, and been well armed, could you have accomplished anything in the way of driving away the crowd?

A. We might have done something just at that place, but we did not have more than enough to protect that one spot which we were at.

Q. Where was that?

A. That was on Liberty street, just in front of the elevator.

Q. In front of the elevator?

A. Yes; down from the elevator.

Q. What time was it?

A. About six o'clock.

Q. Sunday evening?

A. Between five and six.

Q. Was there any trouble in raising a company of citizens at that time?

A. No, sir; there were more than we had arms for—more ready to go than we could get muskets for, and some, when we could get these imperfect muskets, were afraid to go into the crowd with them. When we came down from there we deposited what arms we had in the mayor's office, in charge of a policeman there, and some of them scattered and went to the depot—the Duquesne depot—and others to the depots or upon the street, individually.

Q. What did you do Sunday night yourself?

A. I went over to Allegheny; found the citizens were organizing there and about starting out to guard the bridges. I went with a party to the railroad bridge and was there that night. I had a revolver with me then.

Q. The railroad bridge?

A. The railroad bridge across the Allegheny river at the Fort Wayne road.

Q. Was that well guarded by citizens?

A. There was about fifteen or twenty, armed with muskets and revolvers.

Q. What class of citizens?

A. There were several policemen and some officers and men from Allegheny.

Q. Were you molested during the night?

A. No, sir; the orders were from the mayor to stop every person coming over that bridge, and let no one pass. We turned a great many men coming over there—we turned them back, and made them go around to the other bridges.

Q. Allowed nobody to pass?

A. Allowed no person except a few whom the policemen recognized as living right near there, and were respectable people. Any person we didn't know we made them go back.

James I. Bennett, being recalled, testified as follows:

The Witness. Our city is surrounded by large mining interests, in which thousands of men are engaged, and they come in on the trains Saturday to do their marketing and other trading. When we learned of all this thing—of what was going on Sunday—they came in a distance of four or five or six miles, and perhaps there might have been thousands of these men that came in on Sunday and on Monday. The works were nearly all stopped, and these men were flowing in here in any number, and I think only for the organization that the citizens had themselves perfected on Monday, that I do not know what the consequences might have been later in the week, but they saw that there was a preparation to meet them, and the thing was stopped.

At this point the committee adjourned until to-morrow morning, at ten o'clock.

Pittsburgh, Thursday, February 21, 1878.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at ten o'clock, A.M., Mr. Lindsey in the chair, and continued the taking of testimony.

All members present except Senator Reyburn.

John H. Webster, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. Twenty-fourth ward, south side.

Q. What is your business?

A. Machinist.

Q. What firm are you at work for—Jones & Laughlin?

A. American Iron Works.

Q. Were you at work for them last July?

A. I have worked for them for over twelve years.

Q. Were you at the scene of the riots, near the Union depot, on Saturday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you on Saturday night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you on Sunday?

A. I was on a hill immediately above.

Q. On Sunday?

A. Yes; got there about ten o'clock. I suppose it was somewhere in the neighborhood of ten o'clock.

Q. That was your first appearance in the vicinity of the riots?

A. First appearance.

Q. How large a crowd was there, when you got there Sunday?

A. There was an immense crowd.

Q. Of what class of people was the crowd composed principally?

A. All classes.

Q. Were there railroad employés there?

A. I couldn't say whether there was or not.

Q. Were there mill men and factory men and employés in the shops about Pittsburgh there?

A. Not that I seen of upon the hill where I was. I don't know what was done on the track, I was away up top of the hill.

Q. How long did you remain up at the top of the hill?

A. I followed the firing down until the Union depot got fired, then it got too warm for me, and I came away.

Q. Were you down near the track when you followed the firing along?

A. I was up on the hill.

Q. Were you near the elevator?

A. Coming down I passed the elevator, and got on Liberty street, and the crowd made a rush, and came near knocking me down. I got down near the corner of Penn street and stayed there, and watched the Union depot burn.

Q. Did you have any conversation with those that were engaged in burning?

A. When I first made my way on the upper part of the hill, there was a number of young men lying on the ground under a fence, a tree, or something, and I asked one of them—he appeared to be lively, he was lying, kicking, and looked as though he was hard at work. Says I, "When is this thing going to stop?" Says he, "At the elevator." Says I, "You ain't gone that far." Says he, "Yes, that has got to come down, too;" and I left him, after talking a few minutes about that.

Q. Who was he?

A. I don't know who he was.

Q. Strangers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you go?

A. I went on from there down to look at the firing, and see all that could be seen.

Q. When you arrived at the elevator, did you have any conversation with anybody there?

A. Oh, yes; had a conversation with almost everybody—talking to each other.

Q. Did you say that the elevator was going to be burned?

A. I told several parties what this party had told me on the hill, that he allowed it would come to the elevator, and I began to think there was a good deal of truth in it, because the Union depot was on fire.

Q. Did you see Daniel Corbus near the elevator?

A. I met him at the corner of Fifth and Fulton streets, and we walked down together. I told him what these parties had told me—they were going to burn down the elevator, that was a damn monopoly, too.

Q. Did you say to Daniel Corbus that the elevator had got to be burned—that it was a monopoly, and had got to be burned?

A. I didn't tell him that, because I was taking no active part in it.

Q. Did you tell him that the other party said it was a damn monopoly, and had got to come down.

A. Yes, sir. The railroad officials had stock in it, and they were death on railroads.

Q. You had no participation at all in what was going on?

A. No, sir; just went over to see the fire, and to see what was going on.

Q. How many were with this fellow that made this remark to you?

A. There was some four or five of them laying there, I think.

Q. Was this fellow intoxicated, did you think?

A. He appeared to be perfectly sober.

Q. What for a dressed man was he? How was he dressed?

A. From the appearance of him—he was not dressed any better than I am just at the present time—dirty.

Q. Did his dress indicate a railroad employé or a factory man?

A. I couldn't judge that from his dress. Couldn't say what he was by that—by his dress.

Q. He was dressed like a laboring man?

A. Yes; he was dressed like a workingman.

Q. What time did you leave the depot or elevator?

A. I left when I was standing on Liberty street. I left the time the Union depot fell.

Q. About what time in the afternoon was that?

A. Somewhere very near six o'clock.

Q. Did you go back again?

A. No, sir; stayed home all night. I overheard a couple of gentlemen saying that a committee had been talking to the crowd, and gotten the promise not to burn the elevator. I thought the firing had stopped there.

Irvin K. Campbell, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. Ninth ward, Allegheny City.

Q. What is your occupation?

A. I am a foreman of the hinge factory of Lewis, Oliver & Philips.

Q. How long have you occupied that position?

A. About three years—possibly four. Between three and four.

Q. Were you near the scene of the riots any time during July last, in any of the days and nights?

A. I heard of the firing on the citizens about six o'clock, and I came up on what we call the Cleveland train, and got to Twenty-eighth street, probably at eight o'clock.

Q. What was?

A. That was on Saturday evening—the evening after the firing.

Q. Twenty-eighth street? What time?

A. It was probably half past eight o'clock.

Q. When you got there how much of a crowd did you find there?

A. There was not much of a crowd when I was there. The troops had gone into the round-house, and I inquired why they went in, and received no satisfactory answer. I supposed I was acquainted with some of the troops that went in, and inquired for Colonel Howard, of the Nineteenth. I was acquainted with Mr. Howard, and served in the same regiment in the army, and talked of going in and advising Colonel Howard to get out of the round-house, and was advised not to go in; that the men were scared enough to shoot any man.

Q. Who advised you this?

A. Alderman Conlan, of the Ninth ward, said they were scared bad enough to shoot any man. I came out—I just stepped—probably had one foot inside of the fence where you go into the round-house track—going into the round-house at Twenty-eighth street. I went down Liberty street, and there was two shots fired. I was with a gentleman named Joseph Steen, son-in-law of Mr. Bown's, on Third street. I spoke then and said something about firing out there when there was no occasion for it. I don't mind what my conversation was, but kept on down the street, and heard no more firing until I got down a little ways, and I heard several rambling shots fired. At this time there was no organization, or any crowd to amount to anything. I had been up to the hospital in the meantime to see if there was anybody hurt that I knew. I formerly worked for the railroad company there, and was a little interested to see if there was anybody killed or wounded that I was acquainted with.

Q. Where were those shots fired from?

A. They were fired from one of the windows of what we call the round-house for passenger engines—the round-house this way. You might call it the Twenty-eighth street round-house.

Q. Were there any soldiers there?

A. I presume there was. I couldn't see from the outside.

Q. You didn't know whether they were soldiers or part of the mob?

A. I knew there were none of the mob in there at that time. They were soldiers I knew, but I did not see them.

Q. Was there any burning going on at that time?

A. No burning at that time. 1 think after I came from there down the street I heard burning talked of; and, if I recollect right, I heard it intimated before I left Twenty-eighth street. I think that was my reason for wishing to see Colonel Howard, to advise these men to come out.

Q. By whom did you hear it talked of?

A. I couldn't tell. Although I formerly worked on the railroad, I didn't see a man there that I was acquainted with.

Q. Was it the rioters that were talking about the burning?

A. At that time you couldn't tell who was rioters. They stood around in crowds of four, or five, or a dozen. The only active rioters I noticed was when the way passenger came in I seen probably five or six men that looked liked brakesmen on the road run up to uncouple the engines, and the engineer, Tom Wilson, told them that the car behind him had one horse in, and asked them to let him take it on through—there was no ammunition, or provision, or anything of that kind. I listened to some of the arguments whether they would side-track the freight car or allow it to go through, and they finally told Wilson to back and they took the train into the Union depot.

Q. Mow long did you remain there?

A. I was in the vicinity of the crossing probably ten minutes—not long. The train moved down, and I started to go towards my home.

Q. What time did you get home?

A. I came down Penn street with this Mr. Steen, son-in-law of Mr. Bown's, and we heard of the trouble at Mr. Bown's hardware store, and we stopped there for a few minutes—we stopped there probably three quarters of an hour. I don't recollect, positively, how long, but when I left there I got over in Allegheny, and in time to make the late train, and got down to the Ninth ward. The train, at that time, left Allegheny sometime after eleven o'clock.

Q. When you got to Bown's store, had the rabble been in and ransacked things?

A. They had been in and ransacked things and had gone off. They had apparently taken things that were of no account at all, so far as the riot was concerned.

Q. Were there any rioters still around the store?

A. No rioters at all. The police were standing in front of the store and refused to let us in, and I explained that Mr. Steen was son-in-law of Mr. Bown's and wanted to see if the family was hurt.

Q. Did you see any police up at the crossing near the scene of the riots?

A. Not on Saturday afternoon.

Q. How many came up on the train from the Ninth ward of Allegheny City with you?

A. There was quite a number. The word came down that there had been firing up there, and parties killed and wounded—I could not tell positively how many I came up with—two parties with me.

Q. Did any of the men from your works come up?

A. Not that I know of—there was none came up with me.

Q. Were there any of the men at these works that came up and remained and participated, to your knowledge?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Are you well acquainted with the laboring men about the city?

A. I am in the neighborhood in which I reside.

Q. Did you see any that you knew in that vicinity?

A. Not one—didn't see a man taking an active part in the riot that I knew. I was pretty well acquainted with both sides, and I thought that there was something strange about that—men that were supposed to be easy led by excitement of the kind—and I rather wondered at it. The only man I noticed making any resistance, was one man who said he was a son of a bitch from Brownstone.

Q. That is in the vicinity of the iron works?

A. On the south side. That was on Sunday, near the elevator.

Q. He was near the elevator?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He was engaged in the riot?

A. He said he had been at it all night and all day, and was nearly done out, and at the time I seen him he had a keg—I forget whether it was wine or beer, but he was very liberal with it, giving it to any parties that wanted it, urging them to turn in and help, that he was tired.

Q. What time did you return on Sunday to the scene of the riot?

A. It might have been half past eight or nine. We could see the smoke from down where I lived. That was the first I knew of the burning, when I got up next morning, and came up to see what was burning. I got to Twentieth street about the time, or just before the police made their appearance there to stop the burning of cars.

Q. How far had the fire progressed towards the depot when you got there?

A. I am not positive the street, exactly, but it was in the neighborhood of Twentieth street.

Q. Was there any effort made by the police or any other parties to stop it there?

A. In the vicinity of Twentieth street, the police came along the wall that holds the embankment the tracks are laid on, and drove parties away from the cars. Just as the fire would catch a car, the rabble, composed of all parties, not rioters, but thieves or whatever you choose to call them, they would break into a car and commence carrying the things off—men, women, and children. The police drove the parties off the wall. Some of them fell down, and one, I noticed, got hurt, and, apparently, the police at that time had possession, and I thought it was going to stop, but in a short time I noticed smoke starting up below, further down, and the police went down that way.

Q. How many policemen were there?

A. I am not positive of the number, but there must have been twenty or thirty, the mayor at the head of the police.

Q. The mayor at the head of them?

A. That is my recollection. I am almost positive of that, because I know the mayor by sight when I see him.

Q. Did they succeed in clearing the track and driving them away from that point?

A. There was five or six tracks in that vicinity. They entirely cleared them on the side next to Liberty street, but there was at least six tracks there, and most of the tracks had trains laying on them. Smoke started over a little further amongst some of the other cars.

Q. Did the rioters make any resistance to the police?

A. Not any that I noticed. Some, according to their creed or nationality, held on longer to their goods.

Q. What nationality seemed to hold on the longest?

A. I must say that the Germans carried the heaviest loads. I noticed that, and commented on it coming up in a street car, that the Germans had the heaviest loads. I mean no disrespect to anybody.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. About what time was it that the police cleared the crowd off the wall?

A. It might have been half-past ten or eleven.

Q. On Sunday?

A. On Sunday, but I could not be positive; during the excitement there I was paying more attention to what I could see, and wondering what would turn up next.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you remain there during the entire day?

A. I remained on the Pittsburgh side until probably six o'clock in the afternoon. I then heard they were organizing in Allegheny, and that is the side I lived on, and that there was likely to be trouble over there, and I went over to the other side. The elevator was partially burned down when I left the ground.

Q. Did you see any further efforts of the policemen after eleven o'clock to stop the riot and stop the fire?

A. After that time the police appeared to be scattered in squads. I did not see them in one body after that. I believe they were distributed around after that. I seen a few policemen after that, but not in a body. At the time I lost sight of the policemen I started to go up to see the condition of the round-house. From there I went up to Thirty-third street—I had formerly lived up in that neighborhood—and then down to what they call Lawrenceville, and back down to the Union depot in that direction. I will just say that I met Captain McMunn on Twenty-sixth street coming down, and inquired of him if there was any effort being made to stop it, and my recollection is that he said they had made a proposition to try and organize the employés and try to stop it, but it had not been entertained. I would not say that on oath, but I think so.

Q. Captain McMunn?

A. Yes; he was one of the strikers. Another employé standing looking at the engine in the morning was Robert Aitchison, known on the road as old Bobby Aitchison. He was lamenting about the destruction, and finding fault, and said it was wrong, and he told me he was sure the railroad men had nothing to do with it.

Q. What is Mr. Aitchison's first name?

A. Robert.

Q. That is the old man?

A. That is the old man. At the time I speak of seeing Aitchison, he was standing where he could see the engine he had formerly run—engine 281. I was acquainted with him, and had fired the engine myself at one time. This act was rather impressed upon my memory more than any other things that occurred.

Q. Did you go close to the men that were engaged in the arson and riot during the day, Sunday, so as to ascertain who they were—that is, the leaders in the burning, I mean?

A. I could not recognize any man, but they were what I would call roughs—hard cases, desperate men, most of them. I was told that some, I think, were men that had been—I do not know what the best word is—proscribed, or whatever you choose to call it, been discharged from one railroad, and got a situation on another, and been discharged from there, by this last company receiving a letter. There are a great many men in this country now, that, if they are discharged on the Fort Wayne road, they come to the Pennsylvania railroad, and that company will discharge them, and give no reason for it. There are a great many of this kind in the country to-day, that are desperate men, ready to do anything at all. I have no doubt that some of the leaders in this movement were men of that kind, because the men that were engaged in the riot, were used to railroading, because they could not have run these cars in and burned the round-house as they did. If they had been men belonging to the Pennsylvania railroad, I would have recognized them. I was standing by the elevator when the firemen attempted to throw water on there. I was close by the hose when somebody cut the hose, and the water went over the crowd. I received some of it myself.

Q. When you got back to Allegheny City, you said they were organized there—how large was the crowd there?

A. It was probably six or half past, when I got back there. There was no complete organization—they were just gathering.

Q. At what point?

A. The center appeared to be, that I noticed, near the round-houses of the Fort Wayne road. I noticed parties there that were employés in the shops, and probably there might have been some on the road, but some that I knew belonged to the shops.

Q. Did the crowd increase there?

A. The crowd increased there, but I did not stay there. I kept on down to my own home.

Q. Remained at home during the night—Sunday night?

A. I remained at home all night—was not outside.

Q. Monday morning did you return?

A. Monday morning I reported at the works, and we organized there, and I was placed in charge of a patrol or guard we had round the company's works.

Q. For protecting the works?

A. For protecting the works and do what we could for the whole neighborhood.

Q. Did your men all join in that organization?

A. Just what was asked. They did not make an indiscriminate thing of it. We just selected men and placed them on guard, and kept them on all night, and let them off in the morning, but were ready for a call at any time.

Q. Were the men all willing to unite in such a scheme of protection?

A. All that I seen—I heard no objection.

Q. If there is anything else you can enlighten us on state it? I do not think of any further question to ask.

A. I will just say that the first night we were on we arrested two different parties down there. The first one was on Pike street, Pittsburgh. We found him skulking around the works. I inquired what his business was, and he said he heard there was going to be fun down there, and he came down to see it, and gave no excuse—said he didn't intend to do anything, but he heard there was going to be fun; and there was a lot of freight cars laying full of freight. We put the fear in him a little, and let him go—didn't keep him.

By Mr. Means:

Q. There were two arrested?

A. I arrested another—that was a boy about sixteen or eighteen. I found him laying in a metal pile. He gave the same excuse. He heard there was going to be fun down there, and he came down to see it. We found out that he lived a mile or two back in the country from our neighborhood.

Q. The first man lived in Pike street?

A. He said so. He gave his name there, and the young man, too.

Q. How far is that from the destruction of the property?

A. It is right in the vicinity—down a little. Pike street and Sixteenth street, I think that is in the vicinity of Zug's mill, out along Penn, between Penn and the river. The city was full of men at that time, that, while the excitement was up, they wanted to see what was going on. There was a great many outsiders that were tramps, I suppose. They appeared to be strangers. It appears this strike had been talked of for sometime, and the tramps appeared to understand it, and they appeared to be gathered in for the spoil.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you observe, during the time of this destruction, whether there were two separate classes of individuals, one destroying the property and breaking up cars, and the others carrying away?

A. I noticed that there were men destroying that appeared not to do it for personal gain. Just appeared fonder of destruction than anything else.

Q. Did you think that either of these two parties—the parties carrying away, and the parties breaking up the cars, were citizens?

A. The parties carrying away were citizens, but just appeared to be carrying away because it was there to be had, and wanted to get it.

Q. Those who broke up cars, did they appear to be citizens, too?

A. I could not say about that. The reason that I suppose these parties that carried away were citizens was because they were all making for different localities, and I have every reason to believe they were citizens from some of the things they were carrying away, such as rolling away barrels of flour, and rolling away barrels of lard.

Q. Looked as if they had a place to put it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would these goods have been consumed by the fire, had they not been carried off?

A. That was the excuse which some of them gave for it. There were some that would be ashamed to steal that were carrying the things off.

Q. Because they were being destroyed by the fire?

A. Because they would be destroyed any way.

Q. You said you had no difficulty in getting citizens to volunteer and organize into bodies to assist in suppressing the riot or keeping the peace?

A. There was no riot in Allegheny.

Q. You said they were willing to organize?

A. They were very ready.

Q. Did the citizens generally express a willingness to go elsewhere, where there was riot or lawlessness besides in their own locality?

A. That question I do not think was brought up at all. I heard nothing of the kind mentioned. I know citizens of Allegheny, that they were in Pittsburgh, and took an active part in organizing to put down this riot.

Captain W. J. Glenn, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. I reside at Mansfield, about five miles out of the city—west of the city.

Q. You belong to the National Guard?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Captain of a company?

A. I command company K, of the Fourteenth regiment.

Q. When were you called upon—called out?

A. I received an order to report my company at head-quarters from Pittsburgh on the 20th day of July. I think was the date—on Friday.

Q. To report your company in Pittsburgh?

A. Yes; at the head-quarters of the regiment.

Q. From where did you receive the order?

A. Lieutenant Colonel Glenn, commanding the regiment, in the absence of Colonel Gray.

Q. Did you report as ordered?

A. I did, sir.

Q. At what time did you report at head-quarters, and with how many men?

A. I reported at the Union depot at seven o'clock—I think it was about seven o'clock—with twenty-one men.

Q. How many men composed your company?

A. I had forty men on my roll—thirty-nine men.

Q. Did you have any difficulty in getting your men together?

A. I had difficulty in getting them together from the fact that they are scattered. I live in a country town. The majority I got word to reported promptly. There was a few exceptions that I knew of that were restrained from coming by their friends that thought differently.

Q. Restrained from coming by friends who were opposed to putting down the riot?

A. As they said, they were opposed to fighting the workingmen; that is it.

Q. What was done Friday night after you reported at the Union depot?

A. The first thing we did was to partake of a very excellent supper in Union depot, and then staid at the Union depot until sometime early in the morning. Two o'clock, perhaps, at the Union depot.

Q. What time in the morning?

A. Until about two, I think. I would not say for certain.

Q. Where did you go then?

A. We marched to Twenty-eighth street, by a circuitous route, by the way of Wylie avenue and Webster avenue, I think, are the streets, and then down on the hill to Twenty-eighth street—to the hill above Twenty-eighth street, right opposite.

Q. Were you joined by any other companies; if so, state what?

A. We there met our regiment—we there found the Nineteenth regiment, and a battery called the Hutchinson battery, that I understood had gone out on the train.

Q. How long did you remain there?

A. We remained in about the same position all day, with the exception of details that were made to go down to the crossing, until about five o'clock in the evening, I think it was. We marched to the transfer station—perhaps later than that.

Q. What was done then, after you arrived at the transfer?

A. We stayed there until ten o'clock at night, then we were ordered to the Union depot, and about eleven o'clock—I think it was near eleven o'clock—we were ordered to go to our armories.

Q. Where were the armories?

A. Our armory is at Mansfield.

Q. Did you go?

A. There was an eleven o'clock train—11.02—which starts for Mansfield. I took that train and went to Mansfield.

Q. How long did you remain there?

A. I remained until Monday.

Q. Called into action again Monday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Reported, where?

A. I reported at the Central armory, Pittsburgh.

Q. During the day on Saturday, while occupying the hill, you had a view of the track, and the scene of the riot, did you not?

A. Yes, sir; I had.

Q. How large was the crowd during Saturday—and what was their—were they demonstrative or not?

A. Very much so, and the crowd was very large. They seemed to increase after three o'clock.

Q. Was any attempt made by the Fourteenth and Nineteenth regiments during Saturday, to drive the crowd from the tracks?

A. Yes; I was, with my company, several times ordered to go down to the track, and clear the crossing at Twenty-eighth street, which I did, and it was immediately filled up again by some on the other side. My company being small, would, of course, sweep but a small space of the ground.

Q. Tell us in what manner you cleared the crossing.

A. I marched company front across the track towards the river, and then I would wheel from the left to right, and marched back again, asking the crowd to get off the track, which they would do reluctantly, but I had no trouble.

Q. At a charge bayonet?

A. I do not think I came to a charge bayonet at all.

Q. Just simply marched through and back?

A. Yes; at a carry.

Q. In what order was your company drawn up—in two lines?

A. Sometimes in double rank, and sometimes in single rank.

Q. Would you sweep the track the width of your company?

A. There was generally two companies detailed. One would be passing, perhaps east, keeping the crowd towards East Liberty, and the other would face the river.

Q. Were there any other companies of your own regiment there?

A. Where—on the track?

Q. Yes?

A. My regiment was on the hill, with the exceptions——

Q. Was your regiment on there?

A. I believe I said in my testimony, that the Fourteenth regiment marched that way in a circuitous route, while the Nineteenth went out the other way. I reported to my colonel, who was then in command—Colonel Gray.

Q. Was there any resistance to your attempt at clearing the track?

A. There was some little said. They were obstinate, some of them, and considerably mean about it, and would not go away, as we were marched up, but a few words would make them go away, but they would go round, and get on the track again.

Q. Were they stopping trains?

A. No, sir; I did not see them stop any trains there.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. During the time while you were not engaged in clearing the crossing, in what position were the companies of the Fourteenth regiment stationed, up on the top of the hill?

A. We were in what I would call line of battle, on the face of the hill.

Q. Was the crowd mingling with the regiment—mixed up with the regiment?

A. With very few exceptions. I mind, during the day, talking to several citizens, but I did not consider them rioters.

Q. While you were stationed in line of battle, on the brow of the hill, where was the Nineteenth regiment stationed?

A. The Nineteenth was to our front and right in advance, on the road that leads up to the hospital.

Q. What position were they in during the day?

A. My recollection is, they were in line the same as we were, with the exception of this: that we were detailed a guard.

Q. There was something said by some of the witnesses about the mob and the troops being mixed up indiscriminately. Did you see anything of that kind?

A. I do not think I would say that.

Q. There seemed to be a friendly feeling?

A. There was no picket line out, to keep it entirely clear. The orders were to keep the crowd away, and not to mingle with the men. Still there was no pickets put out, and no driving them away. I heard some remarks made to the men: "You won't shoot workingmen."

Q. Were there any efforts made that day to form any line, by either of the regiments, or both of them, to form a line, so as to keep the mob off from the tracks? What I mean is, to occupy the vicinity of the track, so as to keep the crowd off from it?

A. I have said, already, that my company——

Q. You were marched down and marched back, and took your position with the regiment again? There was no effort made to keep the track clear at any place, except the crossing?

A. No, sir; because they would go right on the track again.

Q. There was no effort made to string out a line, so as to keep the crowd from the track?

A. Only at the crossing, sir.

Q. Where were you at the time General Brinton's troops came up there?

A. I was a very short distance from that little watch-house at Twenty-eighth street, at the foot of the hill—the base of the hill. Perhaps twenty-five yards from where the company was.

Q. In full view of what was going on?

A. Yes; Colonel Gray, I heard him get the order from General Brown to send a company down to support Breck's battery. He turned around and ordered me to take my company out, and also ordered another captain to report to me, and we went down the hill and supported the battery.

Q. The battery was near the crossing at that time?

A. Yes; very near the crossing.

Q. What did you see as General Brinton came up the track? Were there any deputies in advance of them?

A. Yes; the sheriff and his posse was there, and General Pearson, I believe.

Q. State the occurrence as you saw it, just immediately preceding and including the firing on the mob?

A. There was a company came up the track—at least one company, I say—there were, perhaps, two. They came up company front. The regiment—the First Pennsylvania regiment, I believe—came up by flank, the sheriff in front. The railroad came this way [indicating] and they met the troops and the sheriff.

Q. Advanced to meet them part way?

A. Yes; they were going out to see. The troops were stopped—the sheriff was—and I saw him talking, but could not state what he said, be cause there was a very loud clamor and talk from the hillside then, about that time. There was quite a crowd accumulated on the hill, immediately in my rear and right and left. The crowd ran that way to see what was going on—men, women, and children—and it became very noisy; they were crying to the mob, as I call it, to hold the fort.

Q. Men, women, and children, that were spectators, crying to the mob to hold the fort?

A. Yes; "Stand to your post, &c.," and they appeared to obey the command, for they stood pretty solidly, and the sheriff appeared to become so mixed up with the crowd that I could not tell where he was. The only front I saw was these Black Hussars, I think they call them, came right up and told them to go back and came to an arms port, and finally to a charge bayonet, and in the meantime Colonel Benson got his regiment to a front about faced his rear rank, and marched out across the railroad with the rear facing my company, and they formed, what some have termed, a hollow square. It was simply the front facing one way and the rank about facing and marching across the railroad, and that cleared the tracks, and the rear was protected by another battalion, and these troops in front tried to come on through—that was their order as I understood it—they were to forward, and it was hard work for them to go forward very fast. Just about that time, demonstrations became very lively, clubs were flying, stones, coal, and pieces of iron ore. There was a difficulty about this time over some soldier, that some man had got the bayonet, or something, and at least one pistol shot was fired from the mob into the troops, and somebody there—some soldier—he was carried away—I do not know whether he was shot or not, but just then there was firing commenced on the right of the third rank of the First regiment.

Q. How far distant from you was that first firing by the troops?

A. It was not very far—I suppose twenty yards.

Q. What order did you hear given by any of the commanding officers there?

A. I heard no order, except this captain commanding the front company to forward.

Q. That is all the orders you heard given?

A. That is all I heard given.

Q. Heard no order to fire?

A. There was not any order to fire, to the best of my knowledge. I was paying strict attention and I could have heard it if the battalion had heard it.

Q. What was the effect of the firing—what was the result?

A. There was a general clearing out of that mob for about ten minutes—five or ten minutes.

Q. They scattered and left that neighborhood?

A. Yes, sir; the firing commenced, and the troops appeared not to understand exactly where their enemies was. They fired too much towards where your humble servant was, I thought, and I undertook to help them to stop the firing, and the companies were fronted down Twenty-eighth street.

Q. The time this firing commenced, was the crowd all about, on each side of this body of troops that were coming up the track—they were each side of them—the crowd was all about on each side of your company?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were scattered all about there?

A. Yes; they became very thick in a very short time.

Q. Then the crowd scattered after the firing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there any attempt made to prevent their gathering again there by any of the troops?

A. Nothing more. When they would go to come up again they were ordered to right and prepare to fire, and that scattered them. Some of the mob kept on throwing stones and clubs from behind cars until this company wheeled to the left and faced the river, so as they could see behind the cars.

Q. How long before General Brinton's command left the ground there?

A. After the firing; 1 do not think it was over half an hour. I cannot remember the exact time.

Q. After his command left the ground you stayed there some little time—your regiment?

A. My regiment did. I went up on the hill to my regiment.

Q. Was there any effort made by the Fourteenth or Nineteenth regiment, after General Brinton left, to keep the crowd from the crossing?

A. My regiment was not at the crossing at all.

Q. Was any effort made by either of the commands to prevent their gathering there again?

A. Yes; the troops from Philadelphia went that way, and they would go up above, further towards East Liberty, and congregate in the street again—in Twenty-eighth street—immediately after that and would make demonstrations.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. That is not answering the question. Did the Fourteenth or Nineteenth make any effort?

A. I said no—the Fourteenth regiment did not. I do not know about the Nineteenth. I did not see them. We were not down on the track; we were on the hill.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. You kept your position on the hill. After the firing you went back there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On Monday you say you came back to the city and reported with your command. Where were you sent then—on what duty?

A. We stayed at the central armory for several days, then we were ordered to the court-house.

Q. There was nothing of any importance occurred?

A. No, sir.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was your company the only company of your regiment at the crossing at Twenty-eighth street and the railroad?

A. No, sir; there were others.

Q. Was the whole regiment there at any one time?

A. No, sir; at no one time.

Q. How many companies were there of your regiment at one time?

A. I think mostly we had two companies at a time.

Q. And the balance of the regiment were up on the hill?

A. Or if there was only one company the cavalry company would support us.

Q. What was the strength of your regiment about that time?

A. I do not remember the figures. There were two or three companies had not yet reported.

Q. Never did report?

A. Yes; they had not yet reported on Saturday. One company had reported, and was still at the Union depot, up the river. Another company was kept up the Allegheny railroad by orders.

Q. Can you form an estimate of the strength of your regiment on Saturday?

A. I did know the figures. I think there were two hundred, perhaps, or one hundred and fifty.

Q. After the firing on the Philadelphia troops, you rejoined your regiment on the hill—your company?

A. Yes; General Brinton relieved me, and told me he would support that battery, and I could be relieved, and I reported to my colonel by my sergeant, and he ordered me up on the hill again.

Q. Bid you take the battery with you?

A. No, sir; General Brinton said he would support the battery. Company C, Captain Nesbitt, was ordered to go down the hill with me.

Q. Did you get any order after this firing, and after the Philadelphia troops had entered the round-house, to clear the tracks with your regiment?

A. No, sir.

Q. There was no effort made?

A. We marched down through the crowd to the transfer station, after the Philadelphia troops left to go to the round-house.

Q. Where is this transfer station?

A. It was two hundred yards or so outside of the round-house. That is my recollection of the distance—perhaps two hundred yards.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. From there you went to the Union depot?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the track clear down to the Union depot?

A. No, sir; there were parties of men standing along here and there.

Q. They gave way so that you could march through?

A. Yes; they didn't molest us. Some remarks made that we were not the Philadelphians, etc.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Did the mob appear to discriminate between the Philadelphia troops and the Pittsburgh troops.

A. There appeared to be a feeling against the Philadelphia troops.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did there appear to be any feeling on the part of your regiment men against the Philadelphia troops?

A. No, sir; I heard no such remarks made.

Q. That feeling was expressed in the mob?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Means:

Q. The one soldier would respect another?

A. We knew they were soldiers and obeyed orders.

Q. That was our training in the army?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Were you in the late war, captain?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What position did you hold there?

A. I was captain of company E, Sixty-first Pennsylvania regiment.

Q. Served how long?

A. Three years.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. If you had deployed your regiment, or probably both your regiment and the Nineteenth, too, along the line of the railroad forming a line on each side of the track, could you have kept the crowd and mob away from the railroad with the force you had there?

A. If I had been ordered to do so, I think so, certainly. We would have tried hard anyway.

General Joseph Brown, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. Pittsburgh.

Q. What is your business?

A. Hardware merchant.

Q. A member of the National Guard?

A. No, sir; not a member of it now. My time expired on November 1st or 2d.

Q. 1877?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you in July, 1877?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what position did you hold?

A. Brigadier General.

Q. What regiments were under your command?

A. The Fourteenth and the Nineteenth.

Q. Did you receive any orders, and if so, what were they in relation to the riots of July?

A. Yes; on the Friday morning I came to the city, about ten o'clock, I presume, and passing by the city hall, I saw the troops.

Q. Friday morning, the 20th?

A. Yes. I went into the city hall, and found that the Eighteenth regiment, of my brigade—one of the regiments of my brigade—had received orders to go out to the depot, that there was trouble there. I went up with them, as far as the depot, and they went out to the end from there. General Pearson ordered me to get out my other two regiments, and I did so as quickly as possible.

Q. What regiments were they?

A. The Fourteenth and the Nineteenth. About three o'clock I got about one hundred men—I do not remember now which companies they were—which regiments—but I started to go to the outer depot with a battery of two guns, and after I started, about three squares, or two squares, I suppose, I got orders to return, that the force was not strong enough.

Q. From whom?

A. From General Pearson. I returned and saw General Pearson. The idea was to get more troops before they could do anything. We were ordered to lay by until during the morning of the next day, and go out to the outer depot—to this place where the rioters were supposed to be.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What time was this?

A. This was along in the evening about five o'clock.

Q. What hour did you get the orders to remain at rest until morning?

A. About that same time—about four o'clock. We considered which would be the best way to get the upper hand of the rioters. I supposed they were in full force. About four o'clock, I suppose, I went out with the Fourth regiment, up through the city.

Q. About four o'clock in the evening?

A. Four o'clock in the morning—Saturday morning—and we occupied the ground immediately back of the depot.

Q. Of the Union depot?

A. No, sir; at this outer Twenty-eighth street crossing. We there met General Pearson, with Hutchinson's battery and the Nineteenth regiment, and I deployed them—placed the battery fronting on Twenty-eighth street and the regiment up on the side of the hill, in front of the Fourteenth regiment.

Q. Define fully the position of the battery—was it on the railroad track?

A. The battery was right at the railroad track, on a space probably as wide as this room.

Q. At the side of the track?

A. Yes; and pointing down toward the depot—towards the other depot.

Q. How many pieces?

A. Two pieces. I placed two companies on the crossing at Twenty-eighth street there, and kept them there for an hour at a time, I believe, to keep the track clear—to keep everything in order.

Q. You had one company to relieve the other?

A. Two companies to relieve each other from each regiment—two companies from each regiment.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Alternately from each regiment?

A. Yes; alternately from each regiment.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Well?

A. We cleared the ground every time that there was any gathering, apparently, upon the track. There might be a few persons—fifteen or twenty persons, probably—on the track at that time. The companies would move across—probably there might be more—they would move across the track and clear it off entirely. At about the time the Philadelphia troops came through, I had the place cleared off thoroughly, and had Doctor Donnelly make a speech to the people there, and tried to tell them about the trouble that they were getting into. He made a few remarks there, and while he was making the speech I cleared the whole place off thoroughly. Then I remained about there. I was in my citizen's clothes all this time.

Q. You were in citizen's clothes?

A. Yes. I came up to the city—I live about a mile and a half below the city—my uniform was at home. I was in citizen's clothes and, of course, they did not know me so well—the men who were about me. I suppose there was one hundred and fifty to two hundred men.

Q. You mean of the mob—the crowd?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say you cleared the track completely, before the Philadelphia troops arrived at the crossing—by what means or disposition of your troops did you do so?

A. The two companies of one of the regiments.

Q. Tell me how you did that?

A. By forming in line and moving them back down the street, back of the crossing.

Q. Threw your companies across the street, and across the railroad track, and drawing them down Twenty-eighth street?

A. Yes; across over the railroad track, and passed on back to where these brick houses came up. Part of the column was there, the other was across the other way. Therefore we had them all on this side, except what was on the hill.

Q. In your efforts to keep the crossing clear, what course did you pursue?

A. Just merely to march—whenever I would see a few men on the track, I would move these troops across there.

Q. March across company front?

A. Yes; division front, and clear the track off.

Q. Then march back?

A. March the other side of the track again—up on the track all the time. They were on the track next to the hill—they were in line from this brick building across all the way, and whenever they would get in the rear of the soldiers they would fall back.

Q. During this time, the balance of your regiment reserved, was up on the hill—how far from the crossing?

A. Probably seventy-five yards.

Q. The whole brigade?

A. The two regiments.

Q. Not over seventy-five yards away from the crossing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. They were not on the brow of the hill?

A. The Fourteenth regiment was up on the brow of the hill, probably seventy-five or eighty yards from the railroad track, and the Nineteenth regiment was down on the road, within twenty yards of the track. At about half past one to two o'clock, I went into the Union depot to see General Pearson, what he was going to do. The Philadelphia troops were in there lunching at the time. I thought that they were so long in there, I would go in to see what was going on, and make calculations what I should do. I saw General Pearson, and he told me we would do nothing at all, except to go out on two trains, that they were there ready for us to go out on.

Q. He said you were not to do anything at all, except to go out with those trains?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What time was this?

A. It was, I suppose, one or two o'clock. I cannot tell the time. While I was in there, he told me this was all he had to do—to get on these two trains to go out there.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you make any further effort to keep the track clear?

A. Yes; the track was kept clear, until the Philadelphia troops came out, and there was such a rush of people, and gathering when they arrived at the depot, that it was utterly impossible to keep them from surrounding.

Q. Did you understand, from what Pearson said to you then, that he had countermanded the order to keep the track clear?

A. Oh, no; the track was being kept clear.

Q. To do nothing but that—to take out these trains?

A. To take out these trains.

Q. Were you in the immediate vicinity, when the firing took place?

A. Yes; I suppose twenty or thirty yards—well I was at the guns at the time—five or ten yards away from them.

Q. Was General Pearson there?

A. I did not see him.

Q. Who was in command of the troops that came up—the Philadelphia troops—at that time?

A. General Pearson, I thought, was in command of the troops—he was in command.

Q. Was he present?

A. That I could not say.

Q. Was Brinton present?

A. Yes; all I know is—I was watching everything as close as I could—the general outline of thousands of people at the time, and I was trying to watch it as much as I could, to see how the thing was going to get on, and the first things I saw was the firing, when the stones were thrown.

Q. The first thing you saw was the firing after the stones were thrown?

A. Yes; after the stones were thrown.

Q. Did you see the sheriff in front of the military?

A. I saw him there.

Q. With a posse?

A. Yes; with twelve or fifteen men.

Q. Were they assaulted by the mob?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Any stones or missiles thrown at them?

A. Oh, no; they were thrown at them—the stones were thrown at the military.

Q. Were any of the military injured before the firing took place?

A. There might have been. I do not know. They say there was. I do not know.

Q. Did you hear any command given to fire?

A. No, sir; the first I heard was the firing.

Q. Were you in a position where you could have heard the command to fire if there had been one given?

A. I guess the noise was so great, the hooting and yelling was so great, I could not have heard.

Q. What was the effect of the firing?

A. The people all ran.

Q. Scattered?

A. Scattered in every direction—there was not a man about at all, except one man I saw standing there, and he did not seem to pay any attention at all to us.

Q. Did you make any effort after this firing to keep the track clear?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was there any effort made by any of the military to keep the track clear?

A. They rested a short time on the track, and whilst they were resting Colonel Glenn showed me an order, signed by General Pearson, for his regiment to move down to some place at the depot—one of the sheds.

Q. You saw an order from General Pearson to Colonel Glenn?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it directed to colonel or to you?

A. It was directed to Colonel Glenn and Colonel Howard, the same.

Q. That was the 19th?

A. Yes; I received one, may be six o'clock.

Q. You did receive an order from General Pearson?

A. Yes; at six o'clock.

Q. There was no effort made then to prevent the crowd or mob from re-assembling?

A. They did assemble two or three times, and the soldiers would raise their guns.

Q. They were persuaded away by military persuasion?

A. Yes; by military persuasion.

Q. Was any effort made by your brigade to rescue the Philadelphia troops while they were in the round-house?

A. They were very nearly three to our one, I suppose. Two to one anyhow.

Q. You mean there were three times as many of the Philadelphia troops?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would not your force have added to the strength of their force if you had re-inforced them?

A. We did not receive any such orders to relieve them.

Q. Who was in chief command during all this time of your troops?

A. General Pearson was chief in command of the round-house until I found out after dark some time that he had left.

Q. You found he had left? Had you any superior officer present then?

A. Nobody except General Brinton.

Q. Did you receive any orders from him?

A. No, sir.

Q. And if he had been disposed to give you orders——

A. I do not know whether he could have got out or not. There was no trouble until after he fired and killed those citizens. Then there was a great feeling against him, of course.

Q. In the absence of any superior officer, did you consider yourself chief in command of your troops, or the brigade?

A. No, sir; I did not. I commanded what troops I had.

Q. You considered yourself justified in exercising your own discretion in any military movement after that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. About ten or eleven o'clock I received word that the crowd was so very great, and the excitement so terrible, that it would be hardly worth my while to do anything.

Q. You got such information?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did you get this information from?

A. Different persons.

Q. In your judgment, did you think it was useless to attempt to drive away the mob?

A. It was at that time with what troops I had.

Q. How many troops had you then?

A. I suppose I had one hundred and fifty or one hundred and seventy-five.

Q. Of the two regiments?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What had become of the balance of your troops?

A. Some of them had left.

Q. By orders?

A. No, sir; not by orders.

Q. By any orders that you know of?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you mean to say that they had deserted?

A. They left. There was quite a large number left.

Q. Were they missing?

A. They were among the missing.

Q. That was not more than about one fourth of your command—one hundred and fifty men?

A. One hundred and seventy-five men was not much more than one fourth.

Q. Any of your officers missing—subordinates?

A. No; I could not say that.

Q. How many hours had you been in active service and on duty?

A. From the morning previous—say ten o'clock—until Saturday evening.

Q. From ten o'clock Friday until ten o'clock Saturday evening?

A. I was up continuously until Sunday at noon.

Q. Your troops were in active service all that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were they provisioned regularly?

A. They were to a certain extent. Grub was brought to them in baskets. It was regular feeding.

Q. Not regular rations?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not suffer from want of rations, however?

A. They did not to a certain extent.

Q. How did you account for the absence of the names of your men?

A. I suppose it might have been in sympathy with the movement.

Q. With the mob movement?

A. Yes, sir.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. It was not out of fear the desertion took place?

A. No; I do not think it was.

Q. Did you regard the conduct of your subordinate officers commendable during those troubles?

A. They all did their duty. I do not know of any to-day but what stayed there.

Q. Rank and file, do you think their conduct commendable as soldiers?

A. There were some few that left. There was not a full gathering of the command at the first start of it.

Q. Those that deserted you or left, was their conduct commendable?

A. I did not say it was.

Q. The conduct of those that remained was good as soldiers?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Had a great portion of your command seen service?

A. Well, yes; I think a good many of them—quite a large number of them had seen service.

Q. What experience had you in active military service during the last war, or any other war?

A. About nearly three years.

Q. Active service?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In what capacity?

A. I was captain adjutant, major, lieutenant colonel.

Q. What regiment?

A. The One Hundred and Second and One Hundred and Fifth Pennsylvania.

Q. Heavy artillery?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you remain at the Union depot with your command?

A. Until about, I suppose, it was eleven o'clock.

Q. On Saturday night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. I received messages from different persons who came there to see me. They stated to me that they thought I had better disband my command. That was on Saturday evening about eleven o'clock, I suppose.

Q. Will you name some of those persons?

A. No, I could not.

Q. Gave you gratuitous advice?

A. Yes; just talked to me.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Were they citizens?

A. Yes; citizens and military besides.

Q. What military men?

A. Captain Macfarland was one military man that I remember distinctly.

Q. Was he under your command?

A. He was not out with his command.

Q. Any other military men?

A. I do not know, there was quite a number of persons there. We talked the matter over.

Q. Did you receive any orders from General Pearson, or from any of your superior officers?

A. No.

Q. You took the responsibility of disbanding them without orders from your superiors?

A. Yes.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You considered yourself supreme in command at that time?

A. Yes; I considered I was in command of all the troops that were there.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Why did you think it was best to disband your troops at that time—what reasons?

A. We did not have enough to compete with the crowd that was surrounding us—that was about the whole thing.

Q. Was that all the reason that was given?

A. That we were not sufficient.

Q. Not able to compete with the crowd?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And therefore you should disband entirely?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You said you considered yourself superior in command at that time?

A. Of the post where I was.

Q. Where was General Pearson?

A. That I could not tell you.

Q. Had you any communication with him?

A. I heard that General Pearson had left.

Q. You heard he had left?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you receive the last communication from him?

A. The last communication I received from him was at the Union depot when I went in there—noon sometime, or near two o'clock.

Q. Where was Adjutant General Latta at that time?

A. I suppose he was at the Union depot hotel.

Q. At what time?

A. At all this time I suppose he was there.

Q. Eleven o'clock Saturday night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you receive any communication or order from him?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you send for any?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you understand that he was acting commander-in-chief of the forces?

A. I only understood he was acting adjutant general, and that the orders emanated from him as from some higher authority.