REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE Railroad Riots IN JULY, 1877. (continued 15)

Q. You received notice that another call had been made by Mr. Watt, didn't you?

A. No, sir; I have reason to believe, from what I heard—that Mr. Davis informs me—that I told him to go ahead and send them.

Q. Didn't Mr. Watt inform you that your presence could do a good deal towards quelling the disturbance there?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Would not it have had that effect, in your opinion?

A. Indeed, I do not know. I think a disturbance that in Mr. Watt's opinion only required ten men, didn't require the city to go there in the person of the mayor, because it was a very slight affair, as he represented it—it made no impression upon me.

Q. A man, such as Mr. Coleridge described in that quotation you have made, would have had that effect?

A. No, sir; he would have been called upon, and if he had been asked to call for troops, it would have come in. Let me say about calling for troops, that if Mr. Mackey and Mr. Hartranft—but I should say Governor Hartranft and Mr. Mackey—had been in Harrisburg, there would not have been a troop brought here, and peace would have been preserved, but, unfortunately, neither of these two gentlemen were there. Let me tell you, sir, we had a puddler's strike here, and that I had some hand in, and the peace of the city was preserved; and notwithstanding the peace of the city was preserved all the time, some person, I don't know who, sent a request to the Governor for troops, that the peace of the city was disturbed and it could not be preserved. Mr. Hartranft did not know what to do, so he sent for Mr. Mackey. Mr. Mackey came to him and told him, says he, "Wait a few minutes, and I will let you know what to do." Mr. Mackey told him——

Q. Are you testifying to facts within your knowledge?

A. Within my knowledge. Mr. Mackey telegraphed to a gentlemen that I know very well, as to what the condition of affairs was. The gentleman telegraphed back that it was idle and futile to send soldiers here, and it would only create a disturbance. They could keep them away. They were kept away, and there was not a man killed, and not a dollar's worth of property destroyed.

Q. When was that?

A. It was two years ago.

Q. You say that you acted in attempting to keep and preserve the peace here and keep down violence until superseded by the military?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is not the military always in subjection to the civil authorities?

A. The Constitution says so, but the facts of the case are otherwise.

Q. Had you not entire authority and control, at all times, within the limits and jurisdiction of the city?

A. Not when the sheriff comes to the front. He is the chief peace officer of the county, and has the whole county at his beck and nod. The mayor is simply the city.

Q. Is not it the duty of other head officers to coöperate with the sheriff?

A. That depends upon circumstances. I could not coöperate with the sheriff, because the matter was under control of men who were acting entirely different from any way that I would have acted in the case, and I could not assume responsibility in a state of facts that I believe would lead to what was the ultimate result.

Q. Is not your power as magistrate, within the city limits, identical with those of the sheriff?

A. They are.

Q. What hindered you from acting then?

A. Because the sheriff took possession of the case, and called upon the troops. Had the sheriff come to consult me, instead of going to the Pennsylvania Railroad Company's office, and assumed control in calling for troops, the result would have been different. But I was thrown aside. I didn't suit.

Q. You were asked to go up to the scene of the disturbance, were you not?

A. No, sir.

Q. Didn't Mr. Watt ask you?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did he at ten o'clock, on Thursday, ask you to go to the scene of the disturbance?

A. He did.

Q. And you refused to go?

A. Yes, for the reason that I told you, that he asked for ten men, and I knew no reason—when he got all the men he asked for, and it was only ten men—I didn't see any reason why the mayor should go up there.

Q. Did you go up to the scene of the disturbance at any time during Friday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Friday night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Saturday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Saturday night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At what time?

A. Well, I think when I got out there, it must have been ten o'clock.

Q. What did you find there?

A. I found a howling mob, many of them armed.

Q. Did you know that this firing was going on all this time between ten o'clock Thursday and ten o'clock Saturday night, when you went to the scene of the disturbance?

A. I knew nothing of the disturbance at all. I heard that the soldiers had fired upon the crowd.

Q. You knew that there were crowds there, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You knew they prevented freights from running?

A. I did not.

Q. You know that they prevented freight trains from going out?

A. No, sir; I believe the fact is otherwise. I believe the fact is that after the police got possession of a train, on Thursday afternoon, that the engineer deserted, and that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company didn't attempt to put another freight out—that is what I heard.

Q. That is hearsay, isn't it?

A. That is, and I guess it is very true, too.

Q. You had come out then to see?

A. No, sir; I didn't.

Q. On Friday, did you increase your police force any?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you increase them any on Friday night?

A. No, sir.

Q. On Saturday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Saturday night?

A. Saturday night, when we heard of the shooting I directed the officers to go round and inform the proprietors of the gun shops of what had taken place, and to put themselves in a state of defense, and to get their arms out of the road; for they might be assailed, and directed the chief of police to insert an advertisement in the Sunday papers, calling upon the discharged policemen to appear at the mayor's office for duty. My idea of that was that there might be a necessity for these men performing police duty in the streets. I had no idea, until at that time, that where the city and county authorities had a thousand men under their command, in the Twelfth ward, that any policemen would be required or needed on the property of the Pennsylvania railroad, but I did think there would be very great excitement, and it would be necessary to have a force on the streets, not knowing what would happen, and I directed a call to be made for an immediate meeting of the police committee, on Sunday morning.

Q. Were the day force placed back on duty on Sunday morning?

A. Let me go on, as nigh as I can, in a chronological order of events. My mind, as to hours, after I got in the Twelfth ward and saw the state of affairs there, is a blank. I could not give you an hour from that time up to Monday morning, but I was on deck all that time. I went up to the Twelfth ward, saw a crowd there, and mixed in among them. Had a talk with quite a number of them, and tried to dissuade them from acts of violence and disorder, but I was talking to a lot of crazy men. Words were nowhere. Somewhere, as nigh as I can guess, I was in front of the Twelfth ward station-house, immediately above Twenty-sixth street or Penn avenue, and I was too late. It struck me then that there must be some cars set on fire. I left there and went up to the corner of Liberty and Twenty-fifth street, and saw a car on fire immediately above Twenty-fifth street. I looked at the situation, and turned back to the corner of Twenty-eighth and Penn streets, and I there met a policeman, who I think was Mr. Scribner. Says I, "Has the box been pulled?" Says he, "No; the crowd won't let us, but the alarm has been sent down to the police telegraph." I then waited there a very, very long time, expecting the fire department to come. When I stayed there long enough, and hearing nothing of the fire department, I came to the conclusion that the message sent by the police telegraph had failed. By this time Alderman Barclay was along side of a police officer, and a large man, whom I knew by sight, but not by name, and I said to the alderman, says I, "Can't we send an alarm in on this box." The alderman said, "We can try it." He went, I think, into the drug store and got a key, and four of us went to the box, and nobody interfered with us—there were very few up at that corner, and the alderman opened the box, and this man, I believe, he pulled it. We waited another long time—a very long time—and heard nothing of the fire department. Then I began to make inquiries, and I ascertained that a portion of the fire department had come up Penn avenue, and for reasons satisfactory to themselves, had stopped immediately below the Independence engine house, on Penn avenue, somewhere about Twenty-first or Twentieth street—I cannot give you the number—and that they had been stopped there, and were afraid to go on. I do not know what reason they had—they had some reason. I then went to the station-house; but, by the by, I may say here, when I left the lower end of the city the mob was still going through the streets, and I should have stated before, chronologically—what I forgot—that I issued orders by telegraph, and the men met at eight o'clock in the evening, at the station-house, after having lit the lamps.

Q. Saturday evening?

A. Saturday evening. I ordered all the policemen from the first, second, fourth, seventh, eighth, ninth districts, to leave their station-houses, and to come at once to the central station, as soon as the men would come to the station-house. These men came between eight and nine o'clock, most of them nine o'clock, may be later. Some of them had to walk a distance of two miles, and they were put on duty immediately through the streets, and when I thought that I could leave things safely to the direction of the police, I went to the Twelfth ward to see how things were standing. That was the position of matters. When I found that the fire department had not or could not come, I went to the station-house—the Twelfth ward station-house—and telegraphed down to the central station to send up all the police that could be spared. That was done, and as these policemen came up, two or three or four or five or six, &c.—there was a great quantity of stealing going on.

Q. How many policemen came up?

A. I will get at that in a few minutes. As they came there was a great deal of stealing going on, and as fast as they came to the station-house, I started them out on to Penn street, to arrest the people that were carrying off goods. They continued at that work until such times as I thought I had enough policemen to assist the firemen, at which time possibly I may have had fifty or sixty, may be forty. I do not suppose I had over forty or fifty. When I thought I had enough to protect the firemen, I told officer Coulston to go to the fire department and tell them that we now had police sufficient, I thought, to protect them, and to come on, and we would do the best we could. Coulston started off with that message. After a lapse of sufficient time he came back and told me he had informed the parties in charge, of my message, that they replied to them that they would not move until they were ordered by the chief of the fire department and the fire commissioners, and I supposed, that at that time I may have had, all told, fifty or sixty—about fifty policemen—the fifth district and the sixth district had not been called in. The fifth district and the Lawrenceville district immediately adjoining the point where the Allegheny Valley railroad runs through, they were not called in because I supposed they would have as much to do in their own districts. The sixth district was not called in because Torrens station and the stock-yards were in that district, and I thought it altogether likely that the police of these two districts would be wanted to take care of things there for the reason I have given you.

Q. How long did you keep those policemen there in the Twelfth ward?

A. They were kept there until their regular time of going on duty.

Q. What time was that?

A. Well, the regular time was six o'clock, but they were there long after that.

Q. Sunday morning?

A. Yes, sir. I will tell you about that. I stayed up there until somewhere in the neighborhood of daylight. The soldiers, I had supposed, that had taken refuge in the houses there, that their strategy was to stay until daylight would come, and then they would come out upon the railroad track and take possession. That is what I supposed—nobody communicated to me what they would do.

Q. Did you make any effort to communicate with General Brinton or General Pearson?

A. No, sir; I did not. I thought those gentlemen had the matter in their own hands, and didn't want any advice from me; and about daylight, or thereabouts, I came down town, and somewhere in the neighborhood of seven o'clock, or thereabouts, it might have been a little after seven—might have been half an hour, but I just name that at random, approximate it—I received a telegraphic dispatch from the Twelfth ward station that the soldiers were on Penn avenue, marching past the Twelfth ward station-house. That struck me that it was an admirable strategic movement. I thought they had come off the railroad property with their full strength, five hundred or six hundred strong, to march through the streets, to intimidate the crowd, and I was highly delighted at that idea, and I requested Mr. Davis to go and get a buggy that we might go up and witness the effect of it. He came with the buggy, and we both started out, and after we got a considerable distance up town, in the neighborhood of the Twelfth ward, I received information that these men were retreating from the city—six hundred armed men. It sent my heart down about my thighs. I could not understand it. I could not believe it. Then the idea struck me that these men were not retreating from the city, but they were following a line of march by which they had two roads to go to East Liberty. I thought they were going either one of those two roads to join the forces out there, and possibly to come in together. When I got as far as the car stables, in Lawrenceville, just about Forty-second street, I think, I bethought myself it was hardly worth while to make that horse pull two hundred and ten pounds unnecessarily, and I stopped the buggy and got out. I told Mr. Davis to go on after the troops, and not to return until he knew where they had gone to. They might have gone by Stanton avenue to East Liberty, from the upper side of the cemetery, or they might have gone by the Morning side road up to the Sharpsburg bridge. I told him to go on, and not give it up until he could locate them, and then to come back to the Twelfth ward station-house, and report to me, and I then got in a street car at the car stables and came down to the Twelfth ward station-house. Then I telegraphed down to the central station to detain all the police that were there, and send them to the Twelfth ward, and I got tired waiting on Mr. Davis, and knowing that the police committee was to meet, I went over to where the firemen were at work, for the purpose of seeing the chief engineer, and concert with him some plan of action by which I could assist them. I could not find the chief engineer, high nor low. I asked the firemen where he was, and they didn't know, and I took that the work upon the fire—this was not on the railroad property, but on the opposite side of Liberty street where they were at work. I thought the work was ineffective, and I spoke to the firemen about it, and they told me the reason of it was that the water in the basin was low. I thought that a little strange, because it was a rule with the water department, with which I had been connected a great many years, to always have it full on Sunday, but I determined to see about that. Failing to see the chief engineer, I could not waste my time in hunting him, and I came down town. On my way down, I met the superintendent of the water-works, and I says to him, "Jim, the firemen complain they cannot work effectively up in the Twelfth ward, because there is no water in the basin," I think that is the way I put it to him. Says he "I think they are mistaken; the basin is full of water." I think it was at Eleventh street I met him. I came down to the central station, and, on the pavement, I met the secretary of the fire commission, Mr. Case. I says to him, "Frank, the firemen tell me that there is no water in the basin"—I meant a small quantity of water in the basin—"I saw Jim Atkinson on my way down, and he tells me the basin is full. You take my buggy at once, and go up and tell them that the basin is full, that they need not be afraid of the supply of water, and you leave the buggy at Rosewell's stables." He departed, and I suppose gave my message.

Q. What time did the fire commence on Saturday night?

A. It is a guess with me, but I think it must have been about eleven o'clock. I don't think I am far wrong.

Q. You stayed there during the night?

A. Yes; I was going through the crowd during the whole night.

Q. When you got fifty policemen, did you make any effort with those policemen to drive the crowd from the cars that were burning?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Your efforts were simply confined to arresting men that were carrying off plunder?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your policemen armed?

A. Some are and some are not.

Q. They are all armed with maces, I suppose?

A. Yes; they all have maces.

Q. Why didn't you make some effort to stop the burning?

A. Because, in my judgment, it could not be done.

Q. How many men would it have taken to have stopped that that night?

A. Lord knows! I can't tell. I think it would have taken a good many. Near a thousand men cooped themselves up in some houses, and cooped all those men up in those houses after having done the firing. It was yielding to the mob. It was just saying plainly, that the mob was stronger than the soldiers, and that forty or fifty policemen, who had never been in a disturbance of this nature or kind, would simply have been suicidal?

Q. After coming to the central station, Sunday morning, did you return again?

A. Yes, sir; I did.

Q. What hour?

A. That I could not tell you. As I told you before, I took no note of time. It was after I had seen the police committee, and had talked with some of the citizens, with regard to a citizens' meeting, I went up on.

Q. During the day, on Sunday, how many policemen had you in the vicinity of the riot?

A. That I can't tell. I did not suppose, that all told, so far as I could guess or know, there were not more than thirty or forty.

Q. Did you make any demand to recruit your police—demand upon men to serve on the police?

A. That had been done by advertisement in the Sunday morning papers, by the chief of police?

Q. Did you issue an order calling on men, demanding them to join your police force?

A. Which, on Sunday?

Q. At any time?

A. Nothing, except that on Saturday morning for the police.

Q. It was in the shape of a request, was it not?

A. Yes; it was an order.

Q. It was not a command such as would be a command under the laws of the Commonwealth?

A. I don't think it was. I didn't see it. I didn't look for it.

Q. It was placed in the papers by your clerk?

A. By the chief of police.

Q. When you went to the scene of the riot on Saturday night, did you use efforts yourself to suppress the riot or stop it?

A. I went into the crowd and talked with them, but I might as well have talked to the moon.

Q. Who did you talk with?

A. There were several that I talked to that I did not know. I only met one man that I did know, and he had been a lieutenant of police.

Q. He was engaged in rioting?

A. He was there with the crowd and very muddled.

Q. How long before that had he been lieutenant of police?

A. He had been lieutenant of police, I suppose, as near as I can judge, some three weeks before.

Q. And discharged under the order discharging the day force?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you meet any other persons that had been members of the police force?

A. No; not in that position?

Q. What replies did you get from the men when admonishing them to desist?

A. Everybody was filled with the idea that the troops the citizens causelessly, and that had excited the indignation and made men wild. It was a fearful sentiment on Saturday night.

Q. I understood you to state that the reason why you did not go to the Twelfth ward during the Friday and Saturday before, was that you had been superseded by the military?

A. Yes; and because I was perfectly satisfied that the influence that controlled would be disastrous, and that I could not prevent it, and I was not going to permit myself to be compromised by it.

Q. You did go to the scene on Saturday night?

A. I did.

Q. Or rather on Sunday?

A. I did.

Q. Had you gone there on Thursday, or Friday, or Saturday morning, and made use of the police that you had under your command, could you not have prevented the disturbance?

A. Permit me to say again that it was impossible for me to have any connection with the men who had charge of that, because I could not control them. They are men that would not listen to me, and that I could have no influence with.

Q. Whom do you refer to?

A. I refer to the leading officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.

Q. You had control of your police force, hadn't you?

A. I had.

Q. You have control of the affairs of the city.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the organization of the police?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You could have control of the force—you are the peace officer of the city?

A. Yes, sir; and there is the sheriff.

Q. Why did not you then assert your rights as peace officer?

A. Because I recognized the fact that I have no right to come in conflict with the sheriff and the military. I was utterly hostile to their movements and to their plan of operations, and I felt satisfied that it could have no other end than the end that was reached. I, surely, under those circumstances, would have been of no more use than a painted ship upon a painted sea. They would not listen to me.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did you go to them and talk with them, or did you try and see whether you could cooperate with them in any manner?

A. No, sir; I knew the men. That was enough for me.

Q. Do I understand you to say that there was an antagonism between you and the sheriff of the county?

A. It could not be otherwise in this matter, because they had adopted a plan of action that I could have nothing at all to do with.

Q. Were you called on first by the railroad officials?

A. Yes; and gave them all they wanted, and gave them so many men—I will prove to you that they said they didn't want them.

Q. You were asked to go to the scene of the disturbance?

A. Yes; we have talked that matter over several times.

Q. Did you receive any communication from Mr. Scott, the solicitor of the road, on Thursday?

A. I did not.

Q. On Friday?

A. I did not.

Q. Did he make a request to you that you would order the saloons of the city closed?

A. I got a document on Saturday afternoon—I don't know, some time on Saturday it was, according to my recollection—it was by Mr. Thaw, I think by Mr. McCullough, and I think by Mr. Quay, and I think by Mr. Latta, requesting me to request the saloons to be closed, which request, on my part, was complied with.

Q. At what time?

A. That I could not say. I had no right to compel the closing of them—none whatever. I could only request.

Q. You had a riot and disorder in the city then. Do I understand that you had no right to order the saloons closed?

A. No, sir; I have no right to order them closed, under any circumstances, except upon Sunday or upon election days. Then the laws forbid them to be open.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you have any knowledge of the disturbance, and the extent of the disturbance during Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, out in the vicinity of the Union depot, on the railroad?

A. I did not know of any disturbance occurring.

Q. During any of those days?

A. None of those days, except what I told you as having occurred on Thursday. I had reason to believe that there was no disturbance from Thursday afternoon until Saturday afternoon.

Q. Didn't you know of a large collection of people in that vicinity?

A. Oh, yes, sir. I knew they were coming there—went there to see the soldiers—what was going on. People went there as they would to a county fair or a boat race, to see what was to be seen. Men with their families, women with their children, even children in their arms, went there from curiosity.

Q. Don't you know that there was a large crowd there before the military arrived?

A. No, sir.

Q. No knowledge of that?

A. No knowledge of what we would call a large crowd. I know there was quite a crowd there on Thursday. I know from what I am told, there was a crowd there at the time of the alleged disturbance with Mr. Watt and Mr. McCall.

Q. Hadn't you been told by citizens and others, that there was a large crowd there—likely to be trouble?

A. No, sir.

Q. Hadn't any idea?

A. I had an idea that there was to be trouble, because when the military came out they were subject to the thousand contingencies that would produce disturbance.

Q. Had you any intimation of trouble before the military were ordered out?

A. As much as I told you occurred on Friday, after the arrest by the police of this man who was alleged to have struck Mr. Watt. Think there was no disturbance after that during the whole of Thursday night, and to Friday morning, when the police were dismissed.

Q. Did you go to any trouble to ascertain the extent of that disturbance, on the first disturbance on Thursday?

A. Of course, I knew the extent of it from what the police told me.

Q. You were shortly informed of what was going on—made all efforts necessary to ascertain?

A. It came to me without an effort.

Q. Didn't require any effort to ascertain?

A. No, sir; I inquired what going on, and ascertained what was going on.

Q. Didn't your police inform you that the mob had overpowered the police, and also the railroad authorities, on Thursday?

A. Why, no! they didn't overpower them. I proved that here. They were not overpowered.

Q. They had every control of their railroad and their rolling stock without interference?

A. I will prove it to you by the police.

Q. I want to know what you were informed of the situation of affairs—what you know of your own knowledge?

A. I was not there. I don't know anything of my own knowledge. I can tell you what can be proved by the police.

Q. I ask you the question, what reports you got from your officers?

A. That everything was quiet and peaceable after the arrest of McCall.

Q. Did you receive any reports from your officers on Friday, that everything was quiet?

A. On Friday morning I received word that the police had been dismissed by the Pennsylvania railroad men.

Q. Who informed you of that fact?

A. I can't tell you.

Q. An officer of your force?

A. I presume so; in fact it must have been; that state of facts I can prove here and demonstrate.

Q. Did you at any time deem it necessary to increase your force of police?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But did you do so?

A. Done what I could to increase.

Q. To what extent did you increase your force?

A. It was increased upwards of one hundred men, by the order of the committee of public safety, and after I got about one hundred, their orders were that I should increase the force to three hundred, but I came to the conclusion that that number of men were not needed, and I didn't employ any more. I suppose we had altogether about two hundred and forty or two hundred and fifty men.

Q. Did you increase your police force before you were ordered to do so by the public committee?

A. Yes; to the extent of ordering the police who were unemployed to report to the city hall for duty on Sunday forenoon. A portion of them came, not many. They considered they had been very badly treated, and they did not care about risking their lives under those circumstances.

Q. Could you have demanded citizens to serve as police on your force?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you do so?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you have all you needed?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why did not you make this demand?

A. Because I had no time to do it. My time was fully occupied. I had met several gentlemen in the morning, and they called a citizens' meeting for the forenoon, and I expected them to make arrangements to go out, in what we might call, in a non-legal way, in a posse, but instead of doing that they thought it more advisable to send a number of gentlemen up to address the crowd.

Q. Who thought so?

A. The meeting.

Q. Citizens' meeting?

A. Yes, sir; they were there and addressed the crowd from the upper end of the platform of the Union depot, but it was of no avail, talking was of no use. Then they were to have a meeting in the afternoon. I came down to that meeting and met the committee at the city hall, talked a little there, and then they adjourned to meet on Market street, and there was considerable talk. Doctor Donnelly was there, he was one of the spokesmen, and he talked there about having offered, with the permission of the mayor, a company. He is slightly mistaken as to having formed a company; it was I who formed it.

Q. A military company with arms?

A. No, sir; a company of citizens.

Q. Armed citizens?

A. They were not armed. They had nothing.

Q. You subsequently armed them, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir. To properly understand the spirit with which I was actuated, with permission of the committee, I will read two extracts, one from the Post of Monday, and one from the Gazette of Monday morning, these extracts are not literally reported, but to show the spirit that was there, and with permission of the committee, I will read them.

Q. Are they long?

A. No, sir; they are not long. This is from the Post of Monday, July 23, 1877.

Q. An editorial?

A. A local report. This is the extract: "An enterprising individual here endeavored to throw cold water on the spirit of the meeting, by saying they needed a thousand men; but he was suppressed. Mayor McCarthy rushed to the stand, and said there was no use of any more fooling. 'Let all who wanted to save their city fall into line, and go at once to the mayor's office, and be sworn in as extra policemen. The fire was spreading, and the incendiaries were still at work, and we must act now.'" Then the reporter puts in this: "This suited the meeting, and a portion of the meeting formed in line, and, under head of the mayor, marched off." That is from the , Post.

Q. Before you go any further, did you command that force?

A. I led them; went at their head. I will give you a history of that.

Q. As commander of them?

A. Yes; they were not going into action. There is a history about this, which I will give you after reading this. This is from the Gazette of Monday, July 23, an extract: "There was now a loud call for the mayor, who was in the crowd. He stepped to the front, and said, 'The city is on fire. There is no time to be lost. I want every man, who is ready to help me, to go up here to join this band to go and put down incendiaries.' Mr. Henry Pilipps, junior, said, 'Let us go to the city hall at once, and be perfectly organized as a vigilance committee, and let the mayor swear his policemen in.' The mayor then said, 'I can swear them in now,' and suiting the action to the word, the mayor made his way to one end of the crowd, and countermarched through them. The ranks were quickly filled up, as soon as the movement was understood. The meeting adjourned to call of the chair, and the company proceeded up Fifth avenue." Now this company that I formed there. Doctor Donnelly was present, and he had been spoken of as a fit person to command. I intended to have taken them down Diamond alley to Gregg's store, and arm them with axe-handles or pick-handles, or whatever could be got; but the large majority of them were indisposed to do that, and we started off to the university building, across the way here, and two or three portions of the building were broken in in search of some drilling arms that the cadets in the university use. After a considerable waste of time there, they couldn't get the arms. We succeeded in getting them into line again, and we marched off to Gregg's. Mr. Gregg opened the door, and the line formed outside in the street, and some men went into the store, and they carried enough of those ax-handles to arm the crowd. When that was done, I turned them over to Doctor Donnelly. In anticipation of the formation of this company, I had given orders for a number of police to collect at the city hall, to the end that they would lead this company and precede them, and in that position go and attack the rioters. When I had put Doctor Donnelly in charge, I told him to bring his men to the city hall, and I would give him a police force to precede them and march at their head to go to the scene of the riot. I don't know whether the Doctor understood me or not; but his police force did go. His company didn't go to the city hall, and right here, permit me to say that you have heard a great deal about fifty men squelching this mob, and a hundred determined men. I suppose Doctor Donnelly thought he had determined men, and he didn't go for police assistance. Possibly he expected he could accomplish it all without the aid of police. He went; he was repulsed horse, foot, and dragoon. The next thing I saw of them they came to the city hall in a demoralized condition. I said to the doctor when he came there, says I, "Doctor, keep your men here. I understand that there is a company of soldiers on a steamboat at the lock. You and I will go up and see if we can get them." He got into the buggy, and we went up there. We saw the lady of the house at the lock, and she told me that these men had had orders to go into camp at the poor farm. We came back to the city hall, and was informed that Doctor Donnelly's troops had gone to their supper, and would be back after supper. After supper there came some eight or ten of them—they were there ready for action. That was all that came back, and so you see what fifty determined men could do.

Q. Did this company of Doctor Donnelly's go up there armed with anything else but pick handles?

A. I don't know. I think that after I left them ready to come to the city hall, that they went some place and got some arms, because they came back to the mayor's office with some instruments——

Q. Muskets?

A. I guess there were some muskets the university had used. I know the university authorities created quite a disturbance about their not being returned to them.

Q. You spoke about different parties coming there to suppress this riot. Who were those parties, besides your officers—I mean outside of the city authorities?

A. This meeting of the citizens.

Q. Who else?

A. I don't know any others.

Q. The sheriff and the county authorities?

A. I saw nothing of them on Sunday.

Q. You were speaking of those parties attempting command or change of affairs in trying to suppress the riots. Did you have reference to the citizens' committee?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was it the sheriff's posse?

A. I have reference to the county authorities, the Pennsylvania railroad, and the military.

Q. Then what was it you had reference to—the citizens?

A. No, sir.

Q. Nor Doctor Donnelly's command?

A. I think Doctor Donnelly's command went in good faith, to do what they could—they were not able.

Q. You said you were utterly hostile to all those parties in their efforts?

A. I said I was hostile to their plan of operations, because I didn't think it was called for at the time it was done, because I believed it would end in disaster, which it did.

Q. Did you make any effort to have any conference with these parties to agree on some plan that would be effected?

A. No, sir; they went to work independent of me, and had called out the troops without consulting me at all. I was at my office all night waiting if anything would occur, and I knew nothing of this movement to call troops out until I saw the dispatches on Friday morning.

Q. Do I understand you that because they did not consult you, you put yourself in hostility to all these parties?

A. If you understand me that way, you understand me entirely wrong.

Q. I want to know that?

A. I have time and again here to-day stated that I was utterly hostile to their plan of operations, and that I had nothing to do with them, because I knew I would be powerless with these men.

Q. You made no effort to see them or converse with them, and had no conference with them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Made no attempt to have any conference with them?

A. No, sir; I did not. I am satisfied they did not want me.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Was it not your duty as mayor of the city, to take charge, notwithstanding these men, and if they put themselves in your way, to take them and make them behave themselves?

A. No; I could not do that. The sheriff is the leading officer.

Q. Here among the powers, I find set forth is, "To prevent riots, noises, disturbances, or disorderly assemblages—" that is a part of your powers.

A. I will show you something stronger than that there. That is very weak—wishy-washy. Do not understand me as being offensive—you have got a pretty good-natured face, and I like to talk to you. There it is, "The mayor of the city, shall be its executive officer, and the conservator of its peace. He shall have and exercise within the city limits, the powers conferred on sheriffs of counties, to suppress disorder, and keep the peace.

Q. That is what I meant. Was it not part of your duty to take charge yourself, as mayor?

A. Not under the circumstances. I had been superseded by the power that had the whole county at its beck, who had without my knowledge, and, as I thought, entirely unnecessary, laid out a plan of action I could have nothing at all to do with.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. I would like at this point, for the mayor to explain why he considered himself superseded, having acted without his knowledge.

A. Why I considered I had been superseded?

Q. You say that they acted without your knowledge. I want to know why you considered yourself superseded?

A. I did not consider myself superseded because they acted without my knowledge. If I said anything of that kind I have been misunderstood. I have time and again tried to express myself upon that point, and that is this, that the sheriff of the county, together with the military, had taken possession of this matter, and superseded the mayor.

Q. Had you been so informed?

A. I was superseded by the dismissal of the police on Friday morning, and the taking possession by soldiers who had been called out by the State authorities.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Do you know the fact of your own knowledge that the police had been dismissed?

A. I know that fact from the statement of the police—made to me and to the office.

Q. That is the only way you know that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You received no intelligence of that fact from the railroad officials?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Is it their prerogative to dismiss the police, or have you got control of them?

A. They were under control of the railroad authorities. They directed them where to go, and according to their orders they went.

Q. Have they got control, equal to yourself, with any police in this city?

A. Under the circumstances they had.

Q. You delegated that power to them?

A. They were sent there for that purpose, to do just as they said for them to do.

Q. You delegated the power to the railroad officials to have charge of these men?

A. I cannot say that I delegated them, because there were not over four or five that were under my control.

Q. Did you consider, under all the circumstances, that the railroad officials or anybody else had the right to dismiss police without consulting you, or had any control over them?

A. Under those circumstances, I did.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Was that dismissal anything more than a mere taking of those warrants from the hands of the police, and putting them in the hands of the sheriff?

A. There was nothing of the kind took place, and now understand me: policemen, at the suggestion of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, were sent there during the afternoon and the night. They were there under the control of the railroad authorities, and when the railroad authorities did not want them any more, they dismissed them, which was on Friday morning.

Q. You understand they gave them a formal dismissal, and told them their services were not needed to keep the peace any longer?

A. I do not know in what form it was done.

Q. Was it not merely taking warrants from their hands, and telling these policemen they would put the warrants that were in their hands for execution into the hands of the sheriff to execute—was not that all the dismissal there was?

A. At that time no warrants had been issued.

Q. On Friday?

A. On Friday morning, when the police were dismissed by the railroad authorities, no warrants had been issued—no information had been made.

Q. After their dismissal, did you think then you had no further occasion to keep the police force there?

A. Not because they were dismissed, but because I had been superseded by the military and the county.

Q. I want to know why you thought you were superseded—were you so informed by either of those parties, either the sheriff or the mayor, or anybody acting for them?

A. No, sir; I was not informed by them.

Q. Why did you consider yourself superseded? Simply because they took action to suppress the riot?

A. They took possession of the whole business. There was no room for me.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Would not your police force which you could have gathered together have been some assistance to them in keeping the peace?

A. If the sheriff had asked me for the police as a posse to help him I could have given a hundred men.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. I want to ask you this question, if you think that you can be superseded by the military?

A. If I am not?

Q. Yes; can you be superseded by the military in your powers and duties?

A. If I had charge they would not supersede me.

Q. Is it not your duty to take charge?

A. That duty had been performed by the sheriff.

Q. Is it not your duty to take charge of your police and put down any riots or disturbance within the city limits, regardless of any power on earth?

A. No, sir; in the event that the sheriff does not interfere, it would be. If I got possession first I would hold.

Q. Were you not called upon first by the railroad officials?

A. I was called upon first by the railroad officials to furnish them with ten men.

Q. And you acted?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why did you not keep control?

A. Because they had taken it out of my hands by dismissing the police, calling upon the sheriff, and the sheriff called upon the State for troops.

Q. Then I understand you to say that the sheriff superseded you, in your judgment?

A. That is what I said a dozen times.

Q. Did the military supersede you?

A. Certainly they did.

Q. I want to know if you think the military can supersede you?

A. Mr. Chairman, you are getting too hair-splitting here. If I had charge the military could not supersede me—it would not be in their power.

Q. Did you not have charge at the commencement?

A. At the commencement I had, but on Friday morning I was thrown to the dogs. In the night they had sent for the sheriff. They did not come down to the mayor's office, where I was ready and waiting to hear what was going on there the whole night, but they went for the sheriff and they took him out.

Q. Did they not telegraph you for fifty more additional police?

A. Did I not tell you half a dozen times that I knew nothing about that—I received no dispatch—how often must I repeat that?

Q. Was it not received at your office?

A. I was told that they sent there for more men, and that they got them.

Q. Did they get fifty more policemen that they called for?

A. No, sir. Wait a moment, and I will prove to you that at supper time—after supper—they sent word from the outer depot to the inner depot that they would not furnish transportation to the policemen that went there—they had enough, and they did not want any more.

Q. You did not send them the fifty policemen?

A. I do not know anything at all about it. They got all they wanted.

Q. Now, in not getting them, they called upon the sheriff?

A. No, sir. I will prove to you they got all they wanted. They said they wanted no more, and they would not furnish transportation to the men at the Union depot; but if these men wanted to go they would have to walk.

Q. They did not get the fifty policemen. You have stated they sent for fifty policemen, and they did not get them?

A. I do not know that they sent for fifty policemen, but I have a moral conviction they sent for more men. How many I do not know. It may have been fifty. I have a moral conviction that more men were sent to them than they wanted, for they said so. Whether it was fifty men, I do not know. I do not think it was fifty.

Q. You were not at your office, and did not receive that dispatch calling for fifty men?

A. I was not at the office from quarter to five in the afternoon until eight in the evening. From eight in the evening I was there all night.

Q. I understand your position, Mr. McCarthy, to be this: that you may be superseded by the sheriff of the county, but not by the military?

A. No, sir; that is not my position, by a long slap. My position is that the military were sent here at the request of the sheriff—that the sheriff took possession of the business, and that the police were dismissed, and then I had nothing more to do with them. That is my position.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. That is, when the sheriff takes possession that then there is no further call on you or any further duty for you to perform—is that the position?

A. Under the circumstances as they existed at that time.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Why, then, did you assume command on Saturday evening?

A. Because I had reason to believe from what I saw that outside of the railroad property there was work to be done.

Q. It was not then for the purpose of protecting the railroad property that you acted on Saturday?

A. My good conscience, didn't the railroad company and the sheriff have one thousand men right on that ground, or thereabouts.

Q. It was not for that purpose, then, but it was for the purpose of protecting the city you acted on Saturday?

A. Yes; outside of that.

Q. What time was the information made by Mr. Watt before you on which the warrants were issued for these nine or ten men?

A. Sometime during Friday forenoon.

Q. Made by Mr. Watt?

A. I do not know. May be it was.

Q. Warrants were immediately issued, were they?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Placed in the hands of your policemen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long were they kept by the policemen?

A. Until Saturday morning.

Q. And no arrests were made?

A. No arrests were made.

Q. And then what was done with them?

A. They came there and wanted to take the information away—the law authorities—I think Mr. Housey was one of them. We would not give them the information—would not let go of that. Then they wanted the names of the men who were implicated in it for the purpose of getting out bench warrants, and they got the names. We gave them to them.

Q. Why were these men not arrested on Friday?

A. Because a troubled state of feeling had been existing in the community by calling out the troops, and I instructed the policemen to be very cautious, and if they made any arrests, an arrest any time before the meeting of the grand jury would be sufficient, simply for the purposes of this information.

Q. Did you not understand these persons were the leaders in the disturbances on Twenty-eighth street?

A. I would understand they were engaged in it.

Q. That was the charge contained in the affidavit, was it not?

A. No, no; it was not a charge. I think that the information was made under an act of Assembly, passed within the last two or three years, about people interfering with the running of trains. I think that was it, though I am not quite sure.

Q. Would it not have been better to have made these arrests as soon as possible, before the arrival of the military?

A. No, sir; I think, under the circumstances, it would have been a very bad move to have made these arrests. I was conscious, at the time I gave the warrants to the officer, that it was a dangerous thing, on account of the public excitement that had been created by calling out the troops, and I told him to be very cautious about what he would do, and I was satisfied he would be cautious, as to rush pell-mell, right up there, and snatch these men right out, would have created a disturbance at once. At least, I thought so.

Q. On Saturday night, when you went out and ordered all the police you could get, consistently, to the Twelfth ward, I understand you to say that it was not for the purpose of protecting the railroad property, but to protect the city particularly?

A. I conceived that the railroad property had eight hundred or nine hundred—at least eight hundred men there, for that purpose.

Q. You took these policemen, you say, to arrest men that were carrying off railroad property?

A. Presumed to be railroad property.

Q. Or carrying off plunder?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many did they arrest?

A. I could not tell you. I suppose there may have been about a hundred.

Q. What was done with these men?

A. They were taken to the station-house, and Alderman Butler, I believe, who was in charge—I was not in charge for a week; I had something else to do—I believe they came to the conclusion that they could not be convicted of larceny, from not being able to identify what goods they had. All things were thrown together in the hurry of the moment, and they could not identify them nor the goods, and I believe they came to the conclusion that an action of larceny would not lie, and it would be troublesome to prove it, and he fined them.

Q. How many of them did he fine?

A. Indeed, I cannot tell. I never looked to see.

Q. Did he discharge any of them?

A. That I do not know. I had too much to do, to look after them.

Q. Was any record made of it?

A. Oh! yes; they have their names down in the watch-house docket.

Q. You never examined the record?

A. No, sir; I never examined it because it was a trifling matter compared with other things that had to be done, and I paid no attention to it.

Q. Had you any intimation from any source prior to the appearance of Mr. Watt on Thursday at your office of an outbreak among the railroad employés?

A. No, sir; but on the contrary, I happened to know from the president of the Trainmen's Union that when he was told that, eleven o'clock that day, he disputed the accuracy of the statement. He knew nothing of it, but when he was assured in such a way that he thought there must be something in it, he left the corner of Eleventh and Liberty streets for Twenty-eighth street, to know what the facts were. He himself did not believe it.

Q. You had no reason at all to anticipate anything of the kind?

A. No; I never dreamed that there would be an outbreak such as there was.

Q. That there would be a strike at all on the railroad?

A. Oh, no; had no idea of it at all. I very seldom come in contact with railroad men.

Q. In the conversations that you had with the men who went out in the Twelfth ward, did they give you any reasons for the outbreak and the strike?

A. No, sir; never entered into a critical examination of the question there at that time.

Q. Your conversation with them was simply in relation to——

A. What was occurring at the moment. I think from all I could gather from the railroad men, that they were averse to what took place.

Q. Had you noticed any influx of people in the city, prior to this time—within a few days?

A. No, sir; I had not, but there was one thing struck me with surprise, that I did not know the faces of vast numbers of people. I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, and I know an immense number of faces. I almost think I can tell a Pittsburgher when I see him, but on that day there were vast numbers of people I could not recognize. I got into close quarters with them twice. By the by, I have not told you that I came in contact with them at the head of the platform of the Union depot, but, like Doctor Donnelly's men, in about ten seconds I was placed hors du combat. They invited me to take a little walk—one fellow struck me. A good man in the crowd interfered, and told me they did not want to hurt me, but if I stayed there I would have to take the consequence. I looked around at Officer Jones, who went into the crowd with me, and I saw him looking pretty black, and he made up his mind to the situation, and he left. He came over to me, and says, "Mayor, you had better get out of this." I was disposed to kick. I did not feel very afraid of them. I am not a man of courage. He gave me a nudge, says he, "Get out quick." And I thought I had better go. With that the mob picked me up and carried me from the head of the platform and landed me out in front of the depot, and Alderman O'Donnell and Dan Hall, and four or five policemen then came up, and I was led into the Union depot.

Q. What time was that?

A. I cannot tell the time—it was when the mob was coming down the Pennsylvania railroad yard, smashing up cars and things.

Q. Some time Sunday?

A. I got a little angry, and lost my head. I did not care what I did, and Jones and I, and two or three others, I do not know who they were, went in.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. I would like to ask a few more questions in regard to the sheriff and military superseding the mayor?

A. Never ending and always beginning. Do you expect to put me in the hole, Mr. Yutzy?

Q. Not at all. I would like to know why you considered yourself superseded by any other authorities here in the city, the disturbance having commenced?

A. I have tried to impress that upon you half a dozen times.

Q. Were you informed, by either of those parties, that you were not needed?

A. I have told you two or three times no, and I shall have to continue answering it no every time you ask me.

Q. Did you not consider it your duty to make an effort to suppress the riot and disturbance after they had made an effort to do so?

A. After they had made an effort and abandoned it, I did make an effort.

Q. During the time you were making that effort, did you not consider it your duty also, as chief officer of the city, to suppress any riot or disturbance?

A. I think I told you several times.

Q. Answer that question?

A. I say I have already told you several times, that they pursued a course so diametrically opposed to anything I would have done or could have approved of, and having a firm conviction that no persuasion of mine could alter the determination of the authorities who had it in charge, that I could not interfere.

Q. You made no effort, then, to disperse or suppress the riot?

A. No, sir.

Q. After they had made an effort?

A. After they had made an effort, I did.

Q. During the time they were making an effort?

A. No, sir.

Q. Made no effort?

A. No, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. And not until after they had failed, in your judgment?

A. Yes, sir. What more evidence would you want than that everybody had run away—they had left. I do not charge the soldiers with running away—do not understand that. I meant among the men who said the Philadelphia troops murdered the people there. I am not among those men. I believe they were murdered, but the Philadelphia troops are not responsible for it.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. During the time that the sheriff or the State authorities were making an effort to suppress this riot and disperse the mob, was it not your duty, just as much as if they had not been here, to preserve the peace, and make every effort in your power to the same end?

A. I have already answered that question half a dozen times. I answered it a moment ago.

Q. Will you please answer that, yes or no.

A. Under the circumstances, I do not think that I had anything to do with it.

Q. I would like you to answer that question. It may not be so very material, but I would like to have that question answered, yes or no?

A. I have answered it?

Q. Can you answer it, yes or no.

A. I have already answered it. Under the circumstances, I do not think so.

Q. The sheriff and the military, or even the United States Government, attempting to suppress a riot unless there was military law declared, did you not consider it your duty to make every effort in your power to preserve the peace and prevent any disturbance in your city?

A. I would consider it my duty to do so if there was nothing to interfere with me.

Q. Was there anybody interfering with your duties by any manner of means?

A. I have already said that I considered I was relieved by the sheriff and the State authorities.

Q. Did they interfere with you?

A. It just comes down to this; that is my platform, and that is what I believe, and you happen to think differently.

Q. I wish to ask you the question whether they interfered with you by any manner of means in the performance of your duties?

A. They did not.

Q. And still you suspended your operations or your efforts to suppress this riot and keep the peace?

A. Because these gentlemen superseded me and took possession.

Q. In what way did they supersede you?

A. By dismissing the police that they had in charge, the railroad men, and by the sheriff going there and performing his duties as sheriff, and by calling out the State troops.

Q. Who dismissed these police?

A. The railroad men.

Q. Are you subordinate to the railroad authorities?

A. No, sir; I am not subordinate to them, not by a long slap. There cannot be two kings where I am one.

Q. Still you regarded the railroad company as superseding you when they dismissed your police?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Did they supersede you at any time—the railroad authorities?

A. Why, certainly they did.

Q. By calling upon the sheriff?

A. By the sheriff undertaking to order the crowd to disperse at Twenty-eighth street, and then immediately coming to the conclusion that the civil power had become exhausted, and then sending a dispatch by Senator Scott calling for the troops, and the troops being ordered out—that superseded me, suspended me. I went over that a dozen times. I am on this stand doing the swearing, and I am swearing for myself.

Q. I would not ask you any question that I did not think was a proper one?

A. I don't think that, but we differ.

Q. There appears to be a conflict of authority in this matter between the city and the county and the State authorities?

A. Not a particle of conflict of authority. I took pretty good care that there should be no conflict. When the county and the military and the railroad authority undertook to follow a course which I would have nothing to do with, that I could not approve of, that I believed would end in disaster, as it did, I stepped aside and let them have their way, because I could not control these men.

Q. We want to know where the responsibility should rest—which of those authorities should have taken command?

A. You have a right to form your opinion from the evidence before you. I have given my evidence, what I thought about the matter.

Q. For that reason I ask you the question whether you considered yourself superseded by other authorities, and should refrain from making any effort?

A. I have told you I thought so, and gave you my reasons for it.

Q. During the pillage and the carrying away of goods at the Union depot and in that vicinity, from the railroad, did you see any of the citizens carrying away any of those goods?

A. Oh, yes; there must have been citizens—they must have been citizens—it was not the fellows who were stealing that there was any danger from. It was the fellows standing around with their hands in their pockets.

Q. Did you know anyone in particular who was carrying away goods there?

A. I did not.

Q. Did you see any of the policemen carrying away any goods?

A. I did not; and don't believe they did.

Q. Did you see any of them taking cigars or anything of that kind?

A. Yes; I know what you are coming at now; I had forgotten all about it. We have not been going on chronology, we have been switching off. I saw a number of police throwing what I supposed to be segars, in fact I might say I know, to the mob. The circumstances were these.

Q. Thrown by the police to the mob?

A. O, yes; precisely that and nothing else. You will remember that I said that I telegraphed to detain the policemen, and send them up there on Sunday morning. I got up there pretty late, and the policemen were waiting on me. I hadn't much confidence in any person we had, because I knew that the retreat and dispersal of the soldiers had emboldened the disorderly, and they thought when the soldiers would leave the mob, that the citizens had no chance, and the community were demoralized. I got about twenty policemen, I think, and I thought it would be a good thing to put them to light work and put a little spirit in them. I took them around and told them to go up the wall and drive those thieves away. I didn't get on the wall, I walked down alongside the wall to witness their operations. As soon as the police mounted the wall and the thieves saw them—I kept down with the police the great body of them; I followed on the street and they upon the wall, and the wall was clear for a very few minutes, and I happened to turn my eye up, and I saw a policeman with a bundle of those soft felt hats that are piled on top of one another, and he was throwing them down to the crowd in the street, and I rushed up for him, and shook my fist at him, and used some choice Italian, and then he stopped, and after talking a little string to him I turned, and down the line I saw a couple of policemen jump into a car and throw things out—they were cigars—and they threw things down to the crowd. I rushed down there and bellowed like a mad bull at them, and they stopped finally, but the moral effect of their previous conduct was gone, and the crowd mounted the hill like so many rats, and that was the end of that business. The men engaged in that were two lieutenants, and I am free to say there were not two better men in the force, but they lost their heads; they were completely surrounded by fire, and they thought those things would burn up, and as they would be burned up they just thought they might mollify the crowd—a very mistaken idea—by throwing these things to the crowd. It was from no desire to help the mob, but they had ignored the moral principle involved that they had no right to touch anything, except for the sole and only purpose of preserving it for its owner, and no other purpose. They had forgotten that part of their catechism.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. In other words, the police were demoralized as well as the citizens?

A. At that moment they were. I don't think these men would ever do a thing of that kind again.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What was done with those policemen for that act?

A. I dropped them. I could not do anything else.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Discharged them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are they on the force now?

A. That I can't say. I do not know anything about the present force?

Q. Did you discharge them permanently?

A. They left, certainly, and were never on again. They were on again for some days afterwards, for I had too many things to attend to, to attend to them just at once. I pitied the men, because I knew them to be good men, and I am very confident they will never do so again. It took the starch out of me. I was demoralized by it. There are some things you haven't asked me questions about. There was some talk here the other day about protection to the fire department.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. There has been some testimony that citizens, about the time they were breaking into these gun stores, came and offered to be sworn—state what you know about that?

A. That was by Follensbee. Mr. Follensbee came there and offered. He came to the office very much demoralized.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Just state the fact whether he offered his services, and then whether you accepted or not, and then give the reason why you didn't accept him?

A. I don't know whether he offered his services or not. There were more men, during these two or three hours that I was assigning these men to duty—there were more men who came in there, in the capacity of military strategists, than would be enough to run the United States and Confederate army during the rebellion, and I was annoyed to death with every man coming in there who had some plan. I could not get my wits together. This Mr. Follensbee came there. I have no recollection personally of what he said, but I do know that he was very sadly demoralized with something stronger than I am going to take now. He is a good gentleman, as honest a man as ever lived.

Q. You did not swear him in?

A. No.

Q. Was that the reason why you did not?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Did any other gentlemen with him offer their services?

A. Not that I know of. There was so many people came in and talked about so many things, and how this, that, and the other thing could be done, that I thought of getting a stuffed club to beat them out with.

Q. Did you send any policemen to Mr. Bown's store?

A. Undoubtedly. I suppose there was a dozen there. They were over-powered by the momentum of the mob, and Lieutenant Chalfant was knocked down, as I was told by the policemen a few days afterwards, when we began to gather up our wits. I was told that some of the policemen that were there tried to keep the pavement clear, and took out their pistols, and citizens who were there requested them to put them up, and not use them—that they would be murdered.

Q. Just state what you know—what came under your own observation?

A. Nothing came under my observation there. You won't know how to probe this thing, unless I told you what can be shown.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. I am inclined to think that anything in the police officers' reports—the police officers reporting to you, in an official capacity—would be testimony?

A. Now, about Follensbee. The city clerk was down in front of Mr. Bown's, and there was not a very great many people. They had been trying to keep the people moving. Mr. Follensbee was standing there, and the city clerk appeared to go that way——

Q. We have had the city clerk's report of that, from himself, which is much better evidence than coming from a second party. All we want to know, is just what came under your observation, and what was officially reported to you by your policemen?

A. I sent men there, and I know they went there.

Q. You say you sent about a dozen policemen there?

A. I suppose there must have been a dozen, and I know, from the report of the police to me, that they endeavored to keep the crowd back, and did keep the crowd back, and that one man in the crowd counted one, two, three, four, and up to ten—they are no count, and the whole crowd made a rush at them, and Lieutenant Chalfant was knocked down, and the momentum of the crowd carried the crowd out of sight. They had thrown stones at the heads of them, and broken the windows.

Q. You didn't make any effort to get any greater number of policemen to send there?

A. We had to … half a dozen places at the same time. We just done the best we could, and possibly might have done better, if there had not been so many strategists coming there to bother us.

Q. Did you send any policemen to protect the fire companies?

A. Why, yes, sir.

Q. Whom did you send?

A. I was there myself, with fifteen policemen.

Q. Whom did you offer assistance to?

A. Let me tell you.

Q. Just answer the question?

A. We can get to that better.

Q. Whom did you offer assistance to?

A. To the man in charge.

Q. Who was he?

A. I don't know what his name was.

Q. What street was it?

A. It was, as I think, at the corner of Twentieth and Liberty. You can't understand this, unless you let me tell the story.

Q. At what time?

A. I can't give you any hour. I know nothing of time.

Q. You offered assistance to the man in charge. What was he doing?

A. He was throwing water on French's spring works. You better let me tell the story. You are cutting it up.

Q. What did he say?

A. He says to me, says he, "I won't do it—I am not going to risk my life—if you want to take charge of this thing you can do it."

Q. He was throwing water at that time without any molestation from the mob?

A. Certainly; and the police was stationed across the street to protect them. Whether they would have stood fire or not, I can't tell.

Q. What assistance did you offer him?

A. The police that were there within thirty feet of me.

Q. If he was not molested by the mob at that time, he wanted no further assistance?

A. You won't let me tell this story straight. If you let me commence at the beginning you will understand it.

Q. Did you offer assistance at any other time than the one you speak of now?

A. I told you that I offered assistance on Saturday night, and it was refused.

Q. To whom did you offer the assistance on Saturday night?

A. I sent Officer Coulson to the fire department to tell them to come and aid the police.

Q. We have had Officer Coulson and his story?

A. On Sunday morning, when the fire had crossed Liberty street, I went to hunt the chief of the fire department, and could not find him, to concert measures with him. That is the time I talked about the water arrangement. Then a man connected with the Pennsylvania railroad came to me, and says he, "If I get an engine at the corner of Twentieth street to throw water on the railroad cars will you have the police force there to protect me?" Says I, "I will." I immediately went and I gathered about fifteen policemen, as nigh as I can guess, and had them at the corner of Twentieth street. I think it is at the lower end of French's spring works. I had them there a very long time, and no engine appeared. John Coyle, a member of the bar here, came along and spoke to me, and I said to him, says I, "John"—I told him the facts—"come along with me, I want to hunt this thing up," and we went up to find the chief, and we didn't find him. We found Commissioner Coates, the man that had a pistol at his head and lived to tell the tale. He said he had an engine. I left Mr. Coyle and came down. Coyle went about his business; and I saw an engine coming down one of the cross-streets—Penn street—and I went over to see where it was going, and it went away down town. I went back to where I had the police stationed waiting for the engine to come. After a very great delay, the engine came and attached to a fire plug; but instead of throwing water upon the burning cars, opposite to this street where we were, he commenced throwing upon French's spring works. Then Mr. Houseman I think it is—the gentleman who had made the request of me—I went to him and said something to him, and he came back to me and said, "These men won't do anything. You come and see what you can do." I went over to him, and the answer he made was he was not going to risk his life, but if I wanted to take charge of it I could do so. But I didn't do so. Then the police—they were few in number, and not able to do anything—I just told them to go and do what they could. Then I went down town, and knew the result of the citizens' meeting.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. You said you did not agree, nor could not agree with the plan adopted by the sheriff and the troops, or the officers of the troops, in charge of matters, and at the same time the directions you gave your police was to be careful, and not excite the crowd, and not make these arrests. Are we to infer from that, that your plan was that you must not oppose force to them, you must handle them gingerly and tenderly. Is that what we must infer?

A. No, sir; every occasion presents its own line of action.

Q. The troops and the sheriff were trying to oppose the crowd by force and stop the riot, and you say you did not agree with their plan of action?

A. I don't. I think that the military force is only to be used in case of the very last resort.

Q. In ordering your policemen not to make these arrests, are we to infer——

A. Infer and understand this, that in ordering these policemen to be careful how they made arrests, it was after I had considered I had been superseded, and I wanted them to make the arrests when they made them in such a way as not to create any disturbance.

Q. Are we to infer from your evidence upon that point that your manner of managing such a mob would be to give way to them, and not oppose force to the crowd?

A. I have said nothing, I think, to indicate that.

Q. What would be your plan in such a case?

A. I would have policemen to do it. I don't think the policemen would create such a truculent feeling as an arrest by the use of military.

Q. You think then that the police are the proper force to use on such occasions?

A. Until you ascertain you can do nothing with them, until all other means have failed, and then, and not till then, are the military to be used.

Q. Did you attempt at any time on Sunday to gather your police force in a body so as to have an organized force large enough to accomplish something?

A. I could not get any force on Sunday large enough.

Q. You got fifteen—you say there was fifty or sixty policemen—did you undertake to gather that body?

A. I did not say there was fifty or sixty policemen. I am talking now about the night before.

Q. I think the question was asked you how many there was about there on Sunday?

A. I could not tell how many were there. I know only a small body of them could be got together, and then they began to collect the men who had went home in the morning before we knew that the soldiers had been withdrawn—they began to gather in before dark—then we had a pretty good force, and then with such assistance as citizens gave, we broke the back of the riot—we knocked them right and left.

Q. Hadn't whisky helped a good deal at that time to place them hors du combat?

A. I don't know about it myself, I do not drink it.

Q. I did not ask you as a connoisseur.

A. I think it had the effect to make the crowd vicious. I thought so when I was in their hands.

Q. This Sunday night and Monday morning was when you first began to regain some control there?

A. We got control—from dark on Sunday evening we had control.

Q. The mob had kind of petered out then?

A. Yes, and they had been licked out by the police and citizens.

Q. Where had there been any set-to where the mob had been licked—at what place?

A. At the Fort Wayne depot, at the intersection of Tenth and Liberty street.

Q. What police had had the set-to with the crowd at the Fort Wayne depot?

A. There was eight or ten policemen went there when the car was afire, and they put that out, and they were assisted by citizens also.

Q. How large a crowd did they find to contend with?

A. I don't know, it was an accomplished fact. The mob began to break in stores, and commenced at the corner opposite to Tenth on Liberty street, and the police and the mob had the battle there.

Q. How many police were there engaged in that battle?

A. There was a considerable number.

Q. Do you know how large a crowd there was there?

A. I am told the streets are full.

Q. What kind of a crowd was it?

A. Breaking into stores.

Q. The same crowd that had been burning cars?

A. I don't know.

Q. What was it composed of—this crowd running about the streets?

A. They were composed of men and boys. We had another battle with them at Seventeenth.

Q. This crowd that was plundering was easily dispersed at any time?

A. Easy. They were not people to be afraid of.

Q. Who were the people to be afraid of?

A. Those standing around doing nothing.

Q. Was there an apparent organization among them?

A. I don't know.

Q. Could you judge?

A. I don't know whether there was an organization; there appeared to be a common feeling. I was astonished from the fact that I didn't know them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. They appeared to be strangers?

A. They were strangers to me, I did not recognize them.

Q. In your intimate acquaintance with the people, you would take them to be people from elsewhere?

A. I thought I knew the people about Pittsburgh, but I didn't know these. I don't want to swear that they were strangers. I don't know that I know. I was recognized, and I thought I ought to recognize a great many of them.

Q. Those that were engaged in the act of rioting and police?

A. I am speaking more especially of those who captured me in the railroad yard, and carried me out in front of the depot.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. They did that systematically, did they?

A. Oh, yes; carried me right out.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you, at any time during the riots, employ your night force in the day time?

A. Such of them as we could get. Understand this, my idea of this matter was that the soldiers, having possession of the railroad property, were cooped up for the night, and that when daylight would appear they would go out into the open ground, and take possession of things. My idea was, they went into this place to prevent being pushed back during the night. The great body of the police force went off at six o'clock in the morning. I, supposing that the police would have nothing to do, except to do street duty under this excitement, and had instructed the chief of police to call upon the discharged policemen, supposing that he could get plenty of them, but that expectation was not realized, and not expecting that the soldiers would leave the city at the time they did, had given no orders to keep the night policemen on duty that morning; but when I found that the soldiers had all dispersed, I telegraphed down to the central station to detain such policemen as were there—and there were some there—and they were detained, and they were on duty all day.

Q. Did you make any effort to re-assemble the night police after you ascertained they had left?

A. Could not do it.

Q. Did you make any effort?

A. Could not do it.

Q. Could not you find them?

A. You couldn't get a man to go after them—the great body of them—until night would come. You would get them just as soon by waiting until they came on duty.

Q. Didn't you have the address in your mind?

A. Yes; and knew where they lived. We had plenty to do without doing that.

Q. Any more important duty to perform than to get these men to assemble?

A. That would depend altogether upon what the man in charge thought. I thought the most important duty was to have the police up there—all we could get—and let them do what they could.

Q. Without calling on the night police?

A. If we had means of calling on the night force to gather them in, it would have been done, but, to do so, we would have had to abandon everything else for the time being. Possibly, that might have been as well, though. When I went to the corner of Seventh and Grant streets, I found the firemen playing there, and the police having charge of the ropes—keeping the crowd away from them.

Q. Did you employ all your powers during these riots, regardless of any other efforts adopted to subdue the riots, in preserving the peace?

A. What do you call during the riots?

Q. The time from Thursday until Sunday?

A. Because I didn't think there was any riot before five o'clock on Saturday.

Mr. Lindsey: That question requires a direct answer—yes or no.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you exhaust all your powers during the riots, irrespective of these other parties?

A. I say there was no riot until four or five o'clock in the morning, when the soldiers charged bayonets on the crowd.

Q. Including all within the time from Thursday until Monday, did you exhaust——

A. I knew of no riots until the soldiers charged bayonets on the people. I have answered that question a dozen of times.

Q. Answer it yes or no?

A. I will not answer it yes or no. All my powers were exhausted in preserving the peace so far as I thought I could exercise them. That is the answer to that question.

Q. Have you any call—is there any call to assemble the police, by telegraph or otherwise?

A. We have a police telegraph from each station-house. We send messages on it every day.

Q. There is no particular call by which you assemble your police?

A. There is no alarm.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. I want to ask the mayor a question in connection with his answer to this. He says he used all his powers in preserving the peace, so far as he could exercise them. Was there anything to prevent you from exercising your powers as mayor?

A. Yes; the ground had been occupied by the State military and the sheriff, and occupied in a way that it was utterly impossible for me to act with them.

Q. And it was the only thing that prevented you from exercising your powers?

A. I will say that there was a party went down to the depot—the Duquesne depot—Sunday afternoon, stating he was going to set it afire. That man was arrested by the police, assisted by some citizens, and taken to the lock-up.

Q. You know that there was an assemblage of men at or near Twenty-eighth street during the day, on Friday, don't you?

A. I presume there was, or Mr. Watt would not have come down there and asked for police?

Q. For the purpose of protecting trains going out?

A. No, sir; I didn't know that. I don't think I knew that.

Q. For what purpose were they assembled there, so far as you know?

A. I only knew about them from Mr. Watt, and what he told me, I have forgotten now.

Q. You have forgotten what he told you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you take any measures to ascertain what the purpose of the assemblage was?

A. I think Mr. Watt must have told me what it was, and I judge so. The first thing I heard after the police went there, was that a man had struck Mr. Watt.

Q. I want to know if you don't know that during the day on Friday, and during the day Saturday, there was a large assemblage of men at or near Twenty-eighth street?

A. I knew that by common report, and hearing the police talk.

Q. Was not that an unlawful assemblage of men?

A. It may have been an unlawful assemblage of men.

Q. Didn't you know it was an unlawful assemblage of men?

A. I don't know, I presume it would have been an unlawful assemblage. I presume that they were there for an unlawful purpose.

Q. You did not take any pains to disperse that assemblage?

A. Have I not answered that question a dozen times?

Q. What is your answer? Did you take any measures to disperse that assemblage?

A. I didn't for the reason that I have given you—for the reason I repeated a dozen times to different other questions, in different forms. There is a good deal more I would like to tell you.

Q. You say on Thursday you sent police officers there, and they got on a train, and they attempted to run that train out?

A. And couldn't run it out.

Q. Why didn't they run it out?

A. Because the engineer stepped down and out.

Q. Why did he step down and out?

A. Because he wanted to.

Q. Was there any men taken by force?

A. Oh, no.

Q. Was there a crowd there at that time?

A. I suppose there were a great many people there. I have no doubt there was.

Q. Don't you think it was an unlawful assemblage, and that it was your duty, as mayor, to have gone there, and have dispersed that crowd?

A. The police were there preserving the peace. They were there and preserved the peace to such an extent, that the police say that they were on that train, and that train could go out. There was nothing to hinder it, if the engineer had stuck to his post; but, instead of that, he stepped off his engine, and left the police in charge. That is the report of the police to me?

Q. Wasn't it your duty to disperse that crowd there, as mayor of the city?

A. No; because I knew nothing of the details of that, at this time; because Mr. Watt got all the police that he needed, and they got more than they wanted—said they had more than they wanted, and they had the direction of them there, and the presumption is that the police did just what they wanted them to, and the only breach of the peace that occurred there was that of which Mr. McCall was arrested for—striking Mr. Watt—and taken to the station.