REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE THE Railroad Riots IN JULY, 1877. (continued 30)

By Mr. Means:

Q. I would like to know this before you go any further. Are those telegrams that Robert Ammon received from the railroad officials during the time that he had charge of the road?

A. Yes, sir; this is the commencement of them. He had not charge on Sunday. He took charge of it on Monday. The next telegram is directed to Bob. It says:

"Ammon, a large crowd of men going down the Brighton road, where coaches and cars are on the main track, east of Manchester. Can you protect them?

"G. S. G."

Q. Who is "G. S. G."?

A. Assistant superintendent Griscom. Here is one directed to the initials "W. F. R." That means William F. Ross. He was also official of the railroad.

Q. Dispatcher, wasn't he?

A. Yes; I think so.

"Tell Ammon, if the freight cannot be moved, we would like to move the engines any way. Tell him to help the C. & P., too. [That means Cleveland and Pittsburgh.]

"G. S. G."

Q. Were these sent by wire—by telegraph?

A. Yes; he got them.

Q. By telegraph?

A. Yes, sir. Here is an original that is in Bob's handwriting.

"J. D. L.: [That means, J. D. Layng.]

"I have just sent Ed. Compbell and Paisley to Mayor Phillips for twenty-five police to watch cars, as our men are completely prostrated and wish to obtain some rest. They will watch with police. Can you make some arrangement to get victuals for these men on watch?

"Ammon."

They got a little provisions—that came a little previous, that ought to come in afterwards. Here is another addressed to J. D. L.:

"Can you arrange to send me to-day some hundreds of cartridges? Answer me, as I expect to have use for them.

"Ammon."

Here is another one:

"Ammon:

"Have instructed Ross and Parkin to arrange for provisions. See them.

"J. D. L."

That means J. D. Layng.

Q. Who is "J. D. Layng?"

A. "J. D. Layng;" he is general superintendent.

"Ammon:

"C. & P. Shifter wanted to go down to Glendale and back, and take down relief guards and supper to the men. Is it O.K. to run them following 37?

"G. S. G."

Bob's answer is written in his own handwriting:

"Will spare engine 305. Will pick it up and take it down with the relief.

"Ammon."

Here is another one:

"Please hurry engine for 17 over.

"W. F. Ross."

Q. These are without dates?

A.

"Ammon:

"Engine No. 421 will go on No. 17; and engine 97 on No. 37; and engine 325 on No. 39.

"J. G. Parkin."

Q. Who is J. G. Parkin?

A. He arranged with Ross and Parkin for provisions—he was a regular employé there.

"Ammon:

"Engine, No. 330, will go on 17, instead of engine, No. 421.

"G. S. P." That is Parkin.

Here is a despatch from Mr. Layng:

"Ammon:

"I think a new request on the mayor would give you the cartridges, as he no doubt, has been supplied by this time.

"J. D. L."

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Here is a dispatch:

"D. R. Ammon:

"Of course, you understand that I cannot do anything in the matter of sending, but if you will permit me, as a private individual, to make a suggestion, it would be, that you send to Mayor Phillips and ask him to send you fifty to one hundred men, to protect the property now on the Fort Wayne tracks. I think, that on a proper representation of the facts, he would do this, and it would give the men now in charge of the property, the rest I have no doubt they very much need.

"J. D. L."

"Ammon:

"You had better see Cole, and get matters in shape to talk; but, as I said in former message, what our men want to do, is to let the mob element quiet down and then they can talk calmly. You all want to maintain a record free from violence in any shape. I know you can fully appreciate the force of this.

"J. D. Layng."

The witness: These are all the dispatches which represent the general spirit, and there are a great many more, all in the same strain, and that is all I have to say. They speak for themselves as to their being genuine. If it should come to trial, I think it would be no trouble to prove that. One other matter I desire to call your attention to. As I stated already, that on Sunday, I sent Mrs. Ammon to bring Bob to Birmingham. Mr. Siebeneck informed me on Saturday evening that Bob was over there, and I told him I didn't think it was so. I understood, from Bob's wife, he was up in the oil regions. Bob was living right at the scene where the troubles in Allegheny occurred, and had been an employé of the road, as you are aware. On Sunday, when Mrs. Ammon came home, I felt calm about it. I knew when Bob promised a thing, he generally would, at least, try to carry it out. On Monday morning matters seemed to move along smoothly in Allegheny—what I got was from the newspaper reports. I could not leave my office on Wood street, because our secretary had gone to Bedford, and I was there with one of the clerks and the janitor, and the situation in Pittsburgh then looked very threatening. We have a great many valuable assets there about our safe, and I thought my presence was necessary. Occasionally I would go up on Fifth street and send somebody for Bob, with a verbal message or a few lines. On about three o'clock in the afternoon—perhaps a little before——

Q. On what day?

A. On Monday, I saw Mr. Siebeneck. He says to me, "Ammon," says he, "I have just got word that Bob is in charge of the Fort Wayne road." I, for a moment, didn't know what to say, but Siebeneck assured me that the thing was so. Looking up the street, I saw Mr. Watt, the ticket agent of the Pennsylvania road, at the corner of Fifth and Smithfield street. He came up to me, and says, "My God, squire, has not there been enough property destroyed! Is there any end to this thing! Can you do anything so that property would not be destroyed in Allegheny. Have you any influence with Bob?" I told Mr. Watt, that I thought I had, and if he would go out and see General McCauley, the vice president of the road, for me, and could tell him that I would go to Allegheny, drive over with my wagon, and I was satisfied that Bob would come away with me, if they wanted him away, but that I would not do so unless I had the consent of the railroad officials, and I gave him my reasons. From what I knew, that Bob kept the thing there at bay, there had been no row, no disturbance. If I should take him away, and trouble should accrue in consequence, I would feel that I was indirectly responsible for it. Mr. Watt went out, and in perhaps half an hour or less time, he came back, and I give you his words as near as I can remember. He said, that the general said, "Tell the old squire we are very much obliged for his kindness, and the interest he shows, but the taking away of Bob, would be, perhaps, the worst move we could make." When I heard that, I felt calm—my clerk—one of my clerks, lives in Allegheny. I again wrote a letter to Bob, and implored him, by all that could be dear and holy to him, to see to it, that no destruction of property would take place there. Early next morning, I got an answer from Bob, wherein he assured me that everything was working smoothly, and said all the best citizens, James L. Bennett, and gentlemen who had been before you, and others had been there, and saw him, and they all seemed to be satisfied for the present that he would do the best he could. Shortly after I received that letter, Mr. William L. Jones came in. He lives in Sewickley, is an insurance man, on Fourth avenue, and he told me that Bob was in charge of the road. I told him I was well aware of that, and stated to him that I had communicated with Mr. Watt and General McCauley, and says he, "I know Mr. Layng; will you permit me to go out and make him the same offer." I told him he should go, and I should be obliged to him. He went out and came back with about the same answer. Mr. Layng said he was perfectly satisfied to leave Bob at present where he was. I heard some more afterward, that Mr. McCauley said he hadn't said that to Watt, and I went out. I knew the general well. He says, "'Squire, I only said I didn't remember it, but if it is said that I did say it, I would not take it back, and under like circumstances I would perhaps say the same thing again." I advised Bob, during the day, then, to get out of it just as soon as he safely could for himself and the property. In the evening the Governor came, and you know, you have heard his Excellency; and the next morning the papers reported that Bob had stepped out and things had assumed the usual aspect again. From that time until Bob was arrested the committee of safety, or sub-committee of safety, they took Bob in charge. He stepped out, say on Wednesday morning, and about noon a gentleman attached to the Chronicle office came down and said there was a committee up there with Bob, and they wanted to see me. When I came up there Mr. Jacob Rees, Major Swearinger, Mr. Slagle, of the iron-works on the south side, and some others were present, and they told me they wanted to see Bob and get the blockade raised of the freight which was still on the tracks there, and it seems he was not much acquainted with him and didn't know what to do, and he said he would not say anything to him until his father came, and I told Bob there to follow the advice of these gentlemen, and if, in consequence of their advice, he would get into trouble, I would see him through. These men subsequently got into the secret meetings of the strikers down to Dietrick's hall, in Allegheny, and things came all right again, and on Monday following—it was just one week after—a railroad official came to my office in the morning, I guess about as early as nine o'clock, and said, "Squire, if you don't want to have Bob arrested, get him out of the road," and I told that gentleman that I was obliged to him for his kindness, but if Bob and the railroad company had anything to settle, they had better settle it now. About two o'clock in the afternoon Bob was standing near the corner of Fourth avenue and Wood street, and six detectives pounced on him and dragged him to jail, and he stayed there for eleven weeks. That is all I have to say in regard to Bob. Now permit me to say, in less than a dozen words, in regard to what I read in the newspapers this afternoon, of the testimony of my friend, the mayor of Allegheny. The mayor swears, point blank and positively, that he had but one interview with Bob. If that was all, it must have been a mighty long one—a very long one. The mayor and myself have been personally acquainted for a number of years, and shortly after Bob was arrested he met me on Fifth avenue, and he stepped up to me and said, "Squire, I am sorry, on your account, in regard to the scrape Bob was in." I told his honor that the thing was certainly unpleasant, but that I did not worry much, after all, about it. I did not think it was anything that was disgraceful, like a charge of stealing or murder, or anything of that kind. It had happened in all countries before, and that I would have to be satisfied whatever the law said; and I says to him, says I, "So far as your city was concerned, mayor, there was not a dollar's worth of property stolen." "There was not anything destroyed." Says I, "Supposing, if Bob is tight, and we put you on the stand, what is the worse you could say against him." "Well," says the squire, "I would have to say that, by continuously persuading Bob and his men, I kept them down so that everything passed off quietly." Now, if it was the only one interview with him, it seems to me he must have been most of the time with Bob.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Did the mayor of Allegheny City give your son credit for maintaining the peace and order, and saving the destruction of property—did he do that?

A. How is it?

Q. Did Mayor Phillips, to you, give your son the credit for maintaining peace, and of restraining the crowd and rioters from the destruction of property?

A. That is all, sir, that was said between the mayor and myself, what I have recited—what I stated. I asked him what the worst was, if he was on the witness stand, he could say against Bob, and he stated that he would have to say, that, by continuously persuading Bob and his men, he kept them down. That everything went off smoothly.

Q. He went to Bob—when he wanted anything he went to Bob?

A. He said, by continuously persuading Bob and his men. That is the mayor's words. If he has forgotten it, I have not.

Q. In any communication that you had with Bob, did he assure you, or say to you, that he would not allow any property to be destroyed?

A. He said that in the most positive terms, verbally and in writing.

Q. To you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That he would not allow it?

A. Yes; he sent me verbally. Sometimes I would send over a man just to talk to him. That man might bring me back a verbal message, or might bring back a few lines. He said that I should not have the slightest fear.

Q. That he would take care of the railroad property?

A. He would take care of the property, and nothing should be destroyed while he was there. In one of his letters, he said he would rather die than submit to the destruction of property.

Q. Did he intimate to you in these communications that he had control of these men—that they would obey him?

A. They did obey him most implicitly. He said that.

Q. That they would obey him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And do what he told them to do?

A. And others told me something similar. I would say—permit me to recur to one conversation—Mr. James I. Bennett, a gentleman whom I believe has testified before you—he is president of the insurance company which I represent as general agent. I went to him after I had these assurances from the railroad officials that they did not want Bob away. I felt dissatisfied; but I thought I would have been more satisfied if he had been away. I went down to his office, at the iron-works, on Water street, and I told him. Says I, "Mr. Bennett, this is the way things stand." Well, says he, "I was down last night." Mr. Bennett lives near, in close proximity to where the trouble occurred. Says he, "I was there last night and saw Bob, and things are working about as smooth as they could under the circumstances," and says he, "Don't you do anything of the kind." Says he, "The strikers put Bob there to run the road, and, if you take him away, they will put some other man there who is, perhaps, not half as well qualified as Bob is." Those were Bennett's words to me.

Q. Is he the president of that road?

A. No; Bennett is president of the insurance company which I represent.

Q. Did the president of that road, or any of the officials of that road, say to you that they were satisfied that Bob should have charge of this road?

A. The vice president, the first vice president, General McCullough, was the man to whom I first went. I heard that Bob was in charge of the road, and agreed to go over and take Bob away, and he sent me back word, through Mr. Watt, the ticket agent, that that would be the worst move he could make.

Q. Taking Bob away?

A. Yes, sir. And when I afterwards heard that it was said that McCullough hadn't said that, I went out and saw him—I am on intimate terms with him, and says he, "Squire, I simply don't remember that I said it; but, under like circumstances, I would perhaps say the same thing again to-day. I do not know what else I could say."

W. C. McCarthy, recalled:

The witness: I read in the newspapers this afternoon, that Mr. Stewart stated to this committee that he had an interview with me on Friday, in which he stated that the railroad company desired to have one hundred men, that they would pay for them. I have to say that Mr. Stewart had no interview with me on Friday, and he did not make that statement to me on Friday, nor did he make that statement to me upon any other day.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Did you see Mr. Stewart on Friday?

A. I did not.

Q. At the city hall steps?

A. I did not. I did see Mr. Stewart at the city hall steps on Saturday forenoon.

Q. What was the conversation then?

A. It was simply conveying from Mr. Scott or Mr. Cassatt, as he stated, a desire that I should go up to the Union depot to see Mr. Cassatt. I declined to do so, and gave my reasons for it, which were, substantially, that the troops were brought here unnecessarily; that it was disgracing the city, and that I had an abiding conviction it would end in bloodshed, which would be unnecessary; and I declined to go to see him, as I knew who and what Pennsylvania railroad officers were; that they were imperious and dictatorial, and I could have no influence upon them whatever, and the result verified my predictions.

By Mr. Means:

Q. At that time did this gentleman ask you to swear in a certain number of police officers, and the railroad company would pay them?

A. He never said anything of the kind, either that day or any other day. It is pretty hard to join those two statements together.

Q. It is a little rough, mayor?

A. Well, I swear to that. The fact is, I scared them, and he did not know whether he was standing on his head or his heels. I blowed at him about bringing troops here, and it would result in murder, and I used strong language.

Q. Did you attempt to scare him?

A. No; I just gave the honest convictions of my soul to him in very strong and emphatic language.

Q. Why was it necessary that you should scare him?

A. It was not necessary to scare him, but he was scared. That is the only way I can account for his ideas that he delivered that message.

Q. Why was it necessary for you to use this very strong language to him?

A. Except I felt what I said, that these men had brought the troops here and shot people down unnecessarily, made me tell you over there that the police had broken the back of that strike on Thursday afternoon—utterly broken it, and if they had any gumption about them, with the expenditure of less than $500, they could have moved a train, and the strike never would have been heard of again. But instead of that, they laid down upon their belly like dogs, and cried for troops, and did nothing for twenty-four hours, and allowed the strike to get ahead.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. I think that is in your testimony before?

A. Indeed, I do not know. As I understand, I thought when I was in Philadelphia listening to your proceedings at the St. Cloud, that I heard a gentleman swear that he saw the police, at the station-houses on Penn avenue, fire at them. I was very deaf that day, and I could not swear positively whether he said so, but on that point I have a few words to say. The first that I knew, or rather the first that I heard about the firing by the police upon the troops was contained in this dispatch to Mayor McCarthy:

"One of my men was murdered by your police force as we marched up Penn avenue, en route for Sharpsburg. The murderer can be identified by a dozen men of my command, although several others of your force discharged their pistols shots into my column while we marched out Penn avenue. Are you willing to assist me in arresting this murderer?"

I replied that I am, that I would. That dispatch I did not preserve a copy of. I afterwards received the following, second one from him:

"Mayor McCarthy:

You seemed to misunderstand my telegraph. I asked you if you were willing to assist me in having your man identified. There is no question about the fact. I can produce the evidence of a dozen respectable citizens of Philadelphia who witnessed the firing. By making the proper inquiries on your part, and by arresting all suspected, I can produce those to identify the guilty party. It was not true that the police of Pittsburgh were hooting and yelling at us openly at nearly every point.

R. M. Brinton, Major General"

To this dispatch, of which I preserved a copy, I sent the following answer:

"R. M. Brinton, Major General:

"I will assist you in identifying or arresting any murderer who is on the police force, or on either side of the struggle."

I said on either side of the struggle, because I believed both sides committed murder, and I may say that I and six or eight of my policemen are now under bonds to answer the charge—a civil charge—for damages for arresting two men who were suspected as being engaged in shooting at the Philadelphia troops as they went out Penn avenue, out Butler street. Then I go on to say:

"By referring to the language of your first dispatch, you will see that the misapprehension was on your part, and not on mine."

Well, gentlemen, when the Philadelphia troops came back here, I sent out orders and got all the police who had been up there at that time together, to meet at nine o'clock in the evening. I saw by a newspaper article—I had forgotten who it was—but I saw by a newspaper article here that it was Lieutenant Cochran that I sent out to the Philadelphia troops, to tell Brinton that at nine o'clock that night the men would be all at the mayor's office, and for him to come with his evidence. Nine o'clock came and no person came—until ten o'clock we waited, and they were dismissed. I dismissed the men with orders to appear at nine o'clock the next morning, and sent word out to camp to General Brinton. If General Brinton requires me to state I will just quote from a little remark I made. I say here Cochran had reported to me that the Philadelphia men, for some reason or other, didn't think they could get here last evening. That was the reply of Cochran. Then I took it back until ten o'clock or nine o'clock next morning, when the police were there, together with a large number of citizens in the neighborhood of the station-houses, who were there at the time that the troops passed. The police unanimously, and the citizens unanimously all joined in the statement that on Penn street, between Twenty-sixth street and Twenty-seventh street, where the station-house is, and where the police were on the pavement, that at the time the troops passed the station-house there was no shooting, no disturbance of any kind whatever. That is the testimony of the police and of the citizens, given and sworn to upon that day, when I found the Philadelphia men didn't come to make good their word.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You say the Philadelphia men did not come to make good their word. What did you expect of the Philadelphia men?

A. I believed the Philadelphia men to be as good as their word, as laid down here by General Brinton. Here is General Brinton's dispatch to me: "One of my men was murdered by your police force as we marched up Penn avenue, en route for Sharpsburg. The murderer can be identified by a dozen men of my command, although several others of your force discharged their pistol shots into my column while we marched up Penn avenue. Are you willing to assist me in arresting this murderer?" I expected General Brinton to come with his men and attempt to identify the murderers, as he alleged we shot at those troops as they were passing the station-house. He did not come with his men. An hour or so after all these parties left, two men came to the office; I did not see them myself, but my man at the office reported to me that two men came there, dressed like officers, who stated that they were officers in the Philadelphia regiment, and they repudiated the statement that the troops were fired on as they passed the station-house.

Q. They said there was no firing on the troops?

A. Yes; these men's names—I heard at the time the names they gave.

Q. Do you know the names now?

A. No, sir; I do not. I might be able to find out—I don't know whether I could or not. I have forgotten the names; but if that circumstance is sworn to at Philadelphia, I can produce one hundred men to disprove it.

Q. Is that all?

A. That is all. I think I have said enough.

At this point the committee adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.

Harrisburg, April 11, 1878.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, in Senate committee room No. 6. All members present except Mr. Reyburn.

William S. Quay, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Were you present Saturday afternoon, July 24, when the communication was received by General Latta from General Brinton?

A. I was. I was present with General Latta in his room during the entire night.

Q. In the Union depot?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many dispatches were received?

A. I think three, but I am not certain.

Q. What time was the first received?

A. The first one was in the early part of the night. I couldn't fix the time of receiving any telegrams, or, in fact, any of the occurrences of the night.

Q. Can you give the substance of the first dispatch?

A. I cannot give the nature. The first dispatch, however, was very discouraging, I remember that much. It related to the condition of his troops in the round-house, related to the supplies, subsistence, ammunition, and he went on, further, to say, my recollection is, that he considered part of his command as unreliable, and that one of his regiments was disposed to sympathize with the strikers—wouldn't fight with them, anyhow.

Q. Did he state what regiment it was?

A. He didn't use that language, but that was the idea conveyed.

Q. Do you recollect whether he named the regiment?

A. I think he named the Sixth regiment. We understood that to be the regiment referred to. Sometime afterwards, a second dispatch was received, in better character, and we were re-assured. The first one was very bad.

Q. The next dispatch was more encouraging?

A. Yes; decidedly more encouraging.

Q. Do you recollect how the next dispatch reached the Union depot?

A. I think that the dispatches were brought through the lines by Sergeant Wilson of the Jefferson Cavalry. He came out in disguise.

Q. All the dispatches you referred to were brought by him?

A. I think so. I will not be positive about that.

Q. Do you recollect of General Matthews making any remarks when he received the first dispatch?

A. I couldn't say positively, but there was conversation. I was in the room, but didn't pay any attention to it myself.

Q. Did you know whether General Latta contemplated ordering General Brinton's command out of the round-house, prior to receiving that first dispatch?

A. I have no recollection of anything that indicated any such intention.

Q. Was it a subject of conversation at all at his head-quarters, during the night?

A. As to the removal of those troops?

Q. Yes?

A. Yes. There was considerable conversation as to that, when General Latta was dictating his last dispatch to General Brinton. There was a conflict of opinion about it.

Q. Was the question of the expediency of ordering the troops out, for the purpose of stopping the destruction of property and driving the rioters from the ground—from the railroad ground? Was that the subject of conversation?

A. I think not. I don't remember that. There was no conversation amongst us. We had no idea of ordering the troops alone—that detachment of troops. The general plan was to bring on the Philadelphia troops, at Torrens station, unite them with Guthrie, and march them down on the rear of the mob, and attack and disperse them.

Q. How early in the evening did the General adopt that as a plan of action?

A. I couldn't say, as I said before. I couldn't, at this time, say.

Q. Can you tell us anything in relation to the dispatch that was sent by General Latta and General Brinton, Sunday morning, by Captain Aull, what knowledge you have of that dispatch, and what was done?

A. I don't think that I have any personal knowledge of that dispatch—don't think I saw it—and what I would give you would be hearsay about that. I have a recollection of a telegram to direct Brinton, I think, to join Colonel Guthrie.

Q. Were you present when Major Norris started to find General Brinton?

A. I don't think I was present when he left the hotel. I was in the hotel.

Q. Did you hear General Latta give him any instructions?

A. Well, I couldn't say. I know he had his instructions, but whether I heard Latta give them to him, I don't know. I don't know what his instructions were.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Do you know anything about any proclamations issued by the Governor, in relation to this riot?

A. I know very little more than the proclamation was issued. At least, I saw the proclamation signed by the Governor and myself, which, I have no doubt, was issued here, under the seal of the State, but I was not present at the time. I know nothing more, really, than you, gentlemen of the committee, yourself.

Q. That proclamation was issued under general instructions from the department?

A. When the heads of departments leave, they generally leave blanks signed, to be used in case of an emergency, if they are required.

Q. They are issued according to general instructions and custom?

A. Yes, sir. I suppose the facts relating to that proclamation are already before the committee.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you receive any communications from General Latta, or from any person connected with the department, prior to the issuing of the proclamation?

A. I think not.

Q. All proclamations of the Governor are signed by the Secretary of the Commonwealth, are they not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The military orders of the commander in chief signed by the Adjutant General?

A. Adjutant General.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Has the Secretary of the Commonwealth, or his deputy, authority, under general instructions, to issue proclamations, in the absence of the Governor?

A. Well, I don't know. I think I would assume that authority without any hesitancy, in case of necessity. Whether it would be ratified or not, I don't know.

Q. Under general custom?

A. Custom; yes, sir. I really don't remember a case where I have done so. I am not certain, but what I have, in a case when the Governor was not here, about the reduction of the sinking fund.

Q. Do you know anything about a request made by the civil authorities of Allegheny county on the Governor, for troops?

A. I received on the morning of Friday, I think the 20th of July—the riots were on the 21st—on the day before, about three o'clock in the morning before, I received a telegram from the sheriff of Allegheny county, including a telegraph to Harrisburg, making the request. He stated that he inclosed it to me for my information.

Q. Was there any request made by private citizens or corporations for troops?

A. I forwarded the telegram to the Adjutant General, stating that I had received it, and I suggested that the major general commanding the Pittsburgh division furnish the necessary troops.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What time did you receive that?

A. I think it must have been three o'clock on the morning of Friday.

Q. What time did you forward it to the Adjutant General?

A. I think by the same messenger. It was from the sheriff of Allegheny county, and I replied to him that I received his telegram.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you at the Union depot at the time the firing took place?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see General Pearson as he returned from the round-house or that vicinity?

A. Yes; I was in General Latta's room that evening with General Pearson and one or two other gentlemen, and he came in.

Q. Was he relieved from command by General Latta at that time?

A. I didn't understand that he was formally relieved of his command, but I know he was obliged to leave.

Q. For what reason?

A. The mob was said to be in search of him, and surrounding his house, and destroying his property. There was some conversation passed between us. I said I thought he was of no use there.

Q. How long did you remain at the Union depot, Saturday?

A. I was there all night.

Q. All that Saturday night?

A. I was there until in the morning at ten or eleven o'clock.

Q. Did you see General Brown there?

A. Yes, I saw General Brown in the early part of the night, I think. General Brown came in when the Pittsburgh troops were relieved.

Q. Did you know anything about his disbanding his command and sending them home?

A. Nothing, except from hearsay.

Q. Would you consider it justifiable or legal to issue a proclamation in the absence of the Governor in emergencies of this kind?

A. I think so.

Q. Did you regard it proper for the Adjutant General to call out troops or furnish troops for the suppression of the riot in the absence of the Governor?

A. That is a question I was not considering. There was nothing improper here when he had direct telegraphic communication with the Governor, and had authority to do so.

Q. In your estimation, would it require special instructions from the Governor to call out the troops?

A. I think he should act under general instructions. The Governor is the commander-in-chief of the troops.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you receive any general instructions prior to the departure of the Governor for the West, as to what would be done in case of an emergency?

A. No, sir, I think not. I understood such authority was given in relation to troops to the Adjutant General. I didn't feel that I was vested with any special authority.

Q. In forwarding the demand that was made by the sheriff for troops to the Adjutant General, did you say anything to the Adjutant General about issuing any proclamation?

A. Nothing.

Q. Knew nothing of that until it was issued?

A. In my telegram to the Adjutant General was simply a suggestion that the major general commanding the Pittsburgh division—I didn't know who he was at the time—should furnish the troops.

W. W. Jennings, re-called.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You may identify those papers, if you will state what they are?

A. This is my proclamation—the first one. Both are proclamations of mine, and this is an order. [Indicating.]

Q. Can you state the date when the first proclamation was issued?

A. The first proclamation was placarded over town—both these proclamations was placarded over town by eight o'clock Tuesday morning, the 24th. I arrived here on the 23d, about seven o'clock in the evening. These were all printed in posters.

Q. And the citizens were all summoned in accordance, or came out in accordance with this proclamation, I suppose—on the demand made by you in this proclamation?

A. Yes, they did, a number of them, in answer to my call. Before this was published I had gathered them up—parties who were excited, and ready to take hold.

Q. This force you collected, did you swear them in as deputy sheriffs?

A. No, sir.

Q. Or special police?

A. I summoned as——

Q. Posse comitatus?

A. Posse comitatus. We didn't stand on ceremony very long.

Q. If there are any statements you wish to make, please make them?

A. I do not know of any, sir.

The following are the proclamations and orders referred to by the witness:

PROCLAMATION.

Sheriff's Office, Harrisburg, Pa.

Whereas, For the past two days the peace and good order of the county have been disturbed and grave apprehensions exist lest injury be done;

And whereas, The duty rests upon me to preserve the peace and promote tranquillity;

Now, therefore, I, William W. Jennings, high sheriff of the county of Dauphin, do hereby enjoin all persons to remain quietly at their homes or places of business, to avoid gathering upon the streets and highways, thus by their presence keeping alive the excitement which pervades the community, and to further the restoration of good order, I charge upon parents to prevent the half grown lads over whom they have control from frequenting the streets.

And I hereby announce my resolute determination, with the aid of special deputies whom I have appointed, and the posse which I have summoned to preserve the peace and protect the person and property of the people within my bailiwick, and I hereby call upon all good and law abiding citizens to assist me and those acting with me to enforce the law and maintain good order.

Given under my hand this 23d day of July, A.D. 1877.

Wm. W. Jennings, Sheriff.

Notice to Law and Order Posse.

The chief engineer of the fire department of the city of Harrisburg, having issued an order specifying to what alarms the several fire companies shall respond, the following companies of the law and order posse, for the purpose of preserving good order in the event of any fire alarm, will repair to the place designated by the alarm as follows:

Company A to Nos. 4, 5, 7, 12, 13, 41, 42 for the Friendship Fire Company.

Company C to Nos. 6, 21, 24, 31, 32, 61 for the Hope Fire Company.

Company I to Nos. 5, 6, 7, 23, 41, 61, for the Citizen Fire Company.

Company B to Nos. 7, 12, 13, 41, 42 for the Paxton Fire Company.

Companies D, F, and G to Nos. 21, 23, 24, 31, 32 for the Good Will Fire Company.

Company H to Nos. 5, 7, 41 for the Mt. Pleasant Hose Company.

The other companies of the posse will hold themselves in readiness for orders.

Wm. W. Jennings, Sheriff.

Sheriff's Office, Harrisburg, July 24, 1877.

Sheriff's Office, Harrisburg, July 24, 1877.

Joseph F. Knipe, Commanding Co. A.

William K. Alricks, Commanding Co. B.

Charles Snyder, Commanding Co. C.

J. B. Boyle, Commanding Co. D.

George G. Boyer, Commanding Co. E.

C. A. Wilhem, Commanding Co. F.

Isaiah Reese, Commanding Co. G.

Law and Order Posse

Will report with their respective commands at the Court-House at two o'clock.

The posse will hold themselves in readiness to respond to two taps of the court-house bell at any time prior to that hour. Other companies will be designated and assigned to duty as the public exigency may necessitate.

W. W. Jennings, Sheriff.

Adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.

Harrisburg, April 16, 1878.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at eight o'clock, P.M., in Senate committee room No. 6.

James H. Stewart, sworn:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. State your residence?

A. I reside in Pittsburgh.

Q. Did you reside there in July last?

A. Yes; I was a resident of Pittsburgh in July, 1877.

Q. Were you there during the riots of the 21st and 22d of July?

A. I was.

Q. State whether you accompanied Colonel Norris on Sunday morning, the 22d, to General Brinton's command?

A. I did.

Q. State where you overtook General Brinton?

A. Do you want me to state where?

Q. Yes?

A. We overtook General Brinton north of the Allegheny river—north-east of the Allegheny river—about a mile, I think, above Sharpsburg, on the bank of a ravine running up a hill. I don't know the name of the street. I was trying to remember it this afternoon, but I have forgotten the name of the road.

Q. From what point did you start?

A. From the Union Depot hotel.

Q. At what time?

A. I can't exactly state the time precisely—it was in the morning. We paid very little attention to time, having been very busily engaged all night and through the morning. We started, I suppose, between nine and ten o'clock, if my recollection serves me right—some place about that time.

Q. Had you been with General Latta and Colonel Quay during the night?

A. Yes, sir; with the exception of the time that I had been detailed for service outside of the city limits. Of course, where I went to from the Union depot was under orders of the Adjutant General.

Q. At whose instance did you and Colonel Norris go in pursuit of General Brinton?

A. I was directed by the Adjutant General to accompany Colonel Norris to the office of General Brinton.

Q. Did you hear the Adjutant General give Colonel Norris any orders to tell to General Brinton?

A. I did not.

Q. Verbal?

A. I did not hear any.

Q. Did he give him any written orders to your knowledge?

A. I think not.

Q. When you overtook General Brinton, state what conversation took place between Colonel Norris and General Brinton?

A. After passing through the city—through Penn avenue—we overtook General Brinton at the rear of his command, then marching very rapidly to the north. We drove partially through the left of his command, got out of our carriage, and walked the balance of the way to the front. Then General Brinton ordered a halt of his troops, and Colonel Norris then told him that the Adjutant General requested that he would turn back, and form a junction with Colonel Guthrie at Torrens station. Do you want me to go on and repeat the whole conversation?

Q. Yes?

A. They talked some time. I stayed with them. There were some officers of General Brinton's command with him, whom I was not personally acquainted with. General Brinton replied that his troops had been without food for twenty-four hours. That he had been fired upon from every corner and street car in the city. That he intended to go back into the country until he could get a position in which he could intrench himself and protect his men. And he furthermore added, that he would be God damned if he would go back into the city of Pittsburgh.

Q. Where were you when that conversation occurred?

A. Alongside of him. We were all sitting down. There had been a halt of the command made, and we sat down on the banks of a stream that ran along the public road.

Q. Did Colonel Norris deliver it as an order coming from the Adjutant General, or did he state that Captain Aull had had such an order?

A. Not that I know of. I can go back in my testimony and mention the fact that we met Captain Aull.

Q. Where did you meet Captain Aull?

A. We met Captain Aull at the eastern side of the arsenal, on Penn avenue. He stopped our carriage on, I think, the eastern side—the furthest extremity of the arsenal, on Penn avenue—stopped our carriage, and asked us where we were going. I told him we were after Brinton's troops. He said nothing at all about an order that he had.

Q. Do you know that he had an order?

A. I did not; no, sir.

Q. Did Colonel Norris tell General Brinton that Captain Aull had an order?

A. Not that I know of. 1 have no recollection of him telling him so.

Q. Did Colonel Norris repeat to General Brinton the substance of the order?

A. I do not know that he knew that Colonel Norris——

Q. Let me ask you the question over again. Did Colonel Norris tell General Brinton that Captain Aull had an order for him? Did Colonel Norris repeat the substance of the order which Captain Aull had?

A. Not that I know of. Captain Aull's name was not mentioned, and from the simple fact that we met Captain Aull, and he knew we were on the way to General Brinton—if Colonel Norris knew he had an order from the Adjutant General, it was not my business to know anything about it. I was simply directed to accompany the colonel on business.

Q. Did Colonel Norris state to General Brinton that the Adjutant General had requested him to deliver the order to return and form a junction with Colonel Guthrie?

A. As I said before, Mr. Chairman, Colonel Norris said to General Brinton that the Adjutant General had directed him to turn his column back, and pass the Allegheny river, making a junction with Colonel Guthrie, at Torrens station. Stated that fact, that the Adjutant General requested him to do so.

Q. And requested Colonel Norris to deliver that order to General Brinton—did he inform him—so inform?

A. Of course. He came direct from the Adjutant General, acting under orders of the Adjutant General.

Q. He was delivering the orders of the Adjutant General, as you understood?

A. Yes. That is what he was doing. That is what took me there. The Adjutant General directed me to accompany Colonel Norris. He was going on official business.

Q. We want to get at what Colonel Norris said to General Brinton?

A. That the Adjutant General directed him to turn his command back and form a junction with Colonel Guthrie, of the Eighteenth regiment, at or near Torrens.

Q. Did you return with Colonel Norris?

A. I did; yes, sir.

Q. To the Monongahela house?

A. To the Union Depot hotel.

Q. What time did you go back to the Union Depot hotel?

A. As I told you before, I don't remember anything about time; but when I got back there—when we got out of the carriage—we started upstairs to the room which the Adjutant General occupied, and was then informed that they had changed the head-quarters from the Union Depot hotel to the Monongahela house. I suppose that might have been one o'clock.

Q. In the afternoon?

A. In the afternoon.

Q. Of Sunday?

A. Of Sunday. At that time the fire was coming down the track towards the hotel. Colonel Norris went before I did to the Monongahela house, and I followed him shortly afterwards.

Q. Did you hear him make any report to the Adjutant General?

A. I did not; no, sir.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you present when Captain Aull received the orders from the Adjutant General?

A. I was not.

Q. Did General Latta order Colonel Norris to proceed with any orders to General Brinton?

A. He did; yes, sir.

Q. Were you ordered to accompany him?

A. I was.

Q. When you reached General Brinton, what reason did he give for not returning to the city of Pittsburgh or Sharpsburg?

A. I stated before that he complained that his command had been without food for twenty-four hours, that he had been fired on from every street corner in the city, that he was anxious to get to the open country, where he could entrench himself, and take up a position to protect his men. He declined to return and make any junction with any troops, or to have anything to do with any troops.

Q. Did Colonel Norris ask him to fall back to Sharpsburg, near the railroad, where he could be supplied with ammunition and food?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he ask him to go to Pittsburgh at all?

A. I think not. If you will allow me to make a remark here, that at that time trains on the Valley road I believe had been stopped. On our road towards Brinton, after we had crossed the Allegheny river, we found the West Pennsylvania road was running, and I then remarked to Colonel Norris that if Brinton would come back to the river, I would see that rations were sent up the West Pennsylvania road, knowing that we could provide his troops with rations.

Q. He was to form a junction with Guthrie's troops where?

A. He was requested to go to Torrens station, or to go as near Torrens station as he possibly could.

Q. That is where Guthrie was stationed?

A. Yes; where the Eighteenth regiment was.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did you see General Loud there?

A. I did; yes, sir.

Q. Was he present during the time that this talk occurred between Colonel Norris and General Brinton?

A. That I cannot say. There were several of General Brinton's staff with him; but when we halted we left the line of the troops, and went down to the banks of this stream I speak of. There was several of his staff officers, and some of the colonels, whose names I am not acquainted with.

Q. Did you see General Matthews with him?

A. I do not remember.

Q. There were several of his staff officers?

A. They were all strangers to me.

Q. How many of his staff officers were present at the time this conversation occurred?

A. I suppose there were five or six gentlemen present scattered around. Whether they were listening to the conversation or not I cannot pretend to say.

Q. What time was Colonel Norris and General Brinton talking this matter over?

A. How long?

Q. Yes?

A. I suppose twenty minutes. I know it was a longer time than I wanted to stay. I was anxious to get back.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was he sitting down?

A. Yes; sitting on the bank of the stream.

Q. Not sitting on a log?

A. Not on a log.

Q. On a rock?

A. I might have been sitting on a log or rock. I know I sat down on the grass. It was very dusty and very hot, and we all took a drink out of the stream.

Q. This conversation took place while they were sitting there together?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. A number of the officers sat with them?

A. Yes; sitting scattered around, some standing. You know how it is yourself, colonel, when you have a consultation with officers.

Q. Did Colonel Norris make any other business known to General Brinton, except this one matter?

A. I do not know, they had some little private conversation between themselves.

Q. This one matter was all—the business matter that you heard talked over between them?

A. So far as I was concerned. That was the business that took me out there, that was all I know.

Q. When that concluded, then you turned about and left?

A. Yes; walked back nearly to the Sharpsburg bridge, and found our carriage, and returned through the mob at considerable trouble.

Q. There was a mob following them at that time?

A. No, sir; nobody.

Q. You spoke about a mob—you found the mob after you got back?

A. Yes; Colonel Norris and myself had some considerable difficulty, and were stopped on our road back by a mounted guide, or vidette, or something—I don't know who he was, or what he was after. He followed us for some considerable time, and came up and addressed us.

Q. What was your understanding of the nature of the business that you pursued Brinton? For what purpose did you pursue Brinton?

A. Why we pursued Brinton?

Q. Yes.

A. My understanding was, that he was to go back and form a junction with Colonel Guthrie, and march into the city of Pittsburgh.

Q. Was that your understanding before you left the head-quarters of General Latta?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know how you got that impression?

A. By being in consultation with the Adjutant General and the balance of the staff during the entire night.

Q. And conversation?

A. Yes, sir; we were consulting together, of course, about the most feasible means or measures—what to do with this exigency there. If you remember, we were but a handful of men ourselves, and there all night long. Could not get our troops into Pittsburgh, wires were cut, lines of railroad were stopped, and our great anxiety was to get as many troops as possible into the city to protect the city. The idea was, this first division would make a junction—that the Fourteenth and Nineteenth regiments having disbanded, you might say virtually disbanded. Having left the Eighteenth regiment at three o'clock in the morning, it was our desire to get the First division form a junction with the Eighteenth regiment, and come into the city to protect property which was then on fire.

Q. Where did Brinton say he was going to when he was asked to return, and refused to?

A. He said he was going to the open country, where he would entrench, and take up a position to protect his troops. Whether he was going to Butler county or further north, I do not know. That was his remark—that he was going to the open country. Where he found that open country is more than I know, if he ever did find it. We did hear that he was marching to Philadelphia.

Q. Did General Brinton say anything that would lead you to think that he did not recognize Colonel Norris as an officer?

A. Did he say to us?

Q. Did he make any remarks to that effect, that led you to think he did not recognize him?

A. No, sir.

Thursday Evening, April 18, 1878.

The committee met, at the call of the chairman, in Senate committee room No. 6. All present except Mr. Larrabee. Mr. Lindsey in the chair.

David Branson, sworn:

Q. State your residence?

A. No. 1315, South Broad street, Philadelphia.

Q. What is your business?

A. Coal merchant.

Q. A member of the National Guard?

A. Yes; I was last secretary, and am still quarter-master, of the Sixth regiment of infantry; but during the commotion acted as brigade quartermaster and commissary, on the staff of General Loud, commanding the Second brigade of the First division.

Q. Did you accompany the troops to Pittsburgh?

A. Yes; in the first expedition that started, and remained with the division until it returned in August. Present for duty all the time.

Q. On Saturday evening, state where you were—what your position was, on Saturday evening of the troubles at Pittsburgh?

A. I was on duty with the brigade in the yards of the company, between the Union Depot hotel and the round-house, engaged in overlooking the line of the men, which kept back the crowd from that portion of the company's property.

Q. Were you in the round-house during the night?

A. In the round-house during the whole night.

Q. Did you leave with the troops in the morning?

A. Yes; the last officer to leave the building.

Q. State, if you please, whether the building was on fire or not when you left?

A. The buildings were all more or less afire when I left.

Q. How extensive was the fire in and about the round-house at the time you went out?

A. At the time the troops commenced to march out, there had been considerable burning of the buildings which we occupied, some of which had been put out, and re-kindled by the burning cars that were run down against the building. That happened two or three times. We thought it was impossible to keep the fire from spreading, and decided to abandon the building. At the time the troops were going out, all the buildings were on fire, and in some of them the fire had got very extensive; so much so, that I felt hot when I went through the last door.

Q. You accompanied the troops on their march out Penn avenue, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you at the arsenal grounds?

A. Didn't go into the arsenal grounds, and didn't witness the interview between Brinton and Buffington. At that time, I was engaged in re-forming the troops. They had been broken up by the killed and wounded.

Q. Were you present when Colonel Norris overtook General Brinton?

A. Yes; when Colonel Norris overtook us beyond Sharpsburg, I was between the two brigades, the first brigade was marching in the rear, some of them assisting the men in charge of the Gatlings, dragging them up the hill. The other brigade had halted to give them time to catch up, and Major Norris arrived in a carriage or a hack, accompanied by some other party whom I didn't know, and Norris not recognizing me, stuck his head out of the side of the hack and told his driver to stop, and asked where General Brinton was. I told him a little further in advance, and I would go and show him, and went up with him about one hundred yards further, and found General Brinton sitting beside of the road, waiting for the troops to close up.

Q. You walked with him?

A. Walked with him. Walked hastily to him, found him waiting there, and he expressed great gratification to find the general again, they being old personal friends, and showed a good deal of feeling in the matter, and seemed very much exhausted and excited and worn out, evidently with loss of sleep and over-exertion, and the excitement of the occasion. Seemed almost dazed in his appearance by the state of affairs. He immediately inquired of General Brinton, what he proposed to do, and where he was going, and how much he had suffered. The general told him how he had got along. He had got out that way in order to find a place where supplies could reach us, and feed the men and get some supplies to feed the troops and get a little rest. They were completely exhausted with want of sleep and food. Colonel Norris assented to that, as about the only thing that could be done, and asked Brinton what he wanted him to do. Repeated the question several times in the course of the conversation: what do you want me to do, stay with you or go back and see what I can do outside. The General said there was nothing he wanted so much as provisions. That was the substance of the conversation. There was nothing in the form of an order given. The whole conversation was a discussion as to what had best be done, and what he, Brinton, intended to do, and what he wished Norris to do for him to help him. He had arrived there with the impression that we had suffered much more than we had.

Q. Did the gentleman who was with Colonel Norris get out of the carriage and accompany you up to where General Brinton was?

A. He didn't accompany him. He may have got out of the carriage afterwards. I never noticed, after Norris got out of the carriage. I never saw him, to my knowledge.

Q. Was he present when you met General Brinton?

A. No, sir. He might have been a short distance in the rear, following us up. I didn't see him. He was not close to us. There was a few officers gathered around. I didn't see anybody else.

Q. Officers of——

A. Our division staff officers. And General Loud was there at about the time the conversation commenced. I think General Matthews joined us afterwards. There was several of the staff there, and I was there, by authority of the position which I occupied on the staff, ready to receive any instructions that might be given.

Q. Was the division all right when Colonel Norris and you overtook General Brinton?

A. The brigade that was marching in advance was halted, waiting for the other to close up; the other was staying back in order to give the men with the Gatling guns time to get up the hill—the brigade in the rear wouldn't go on and leave the men with the guns back there unprotected. We had to halt several times, during our march, on that account. Halted the head of the column, and let the others close up.

Q. Did General Brinton and Colonel Norris sit down and have a conversation together, upon a bank or a log? Do you recollect that?

A. I don't think they exactly sat down. I think they surrounded, or stood around, a log or stone, with one foot on it, or grouped together—pretty close together—and four or five of us lounged around, waiting for those to close up. I couldn't specify the exact position I was in. There was nothing said without my hearing it, unless some whispering, and I didn't notice any.

Q. Did the carriage remain back?

A. Some little distance back of where we were. The driver came up close to us, when Colonel Norris went to get in again. The carriage approached us. I don't know exactly the time; and he went away.

Q. Did Colonel Norris say anything about Captain Aull's having an order for General Brinton?

A. I didn't hear Captain Aull's name mentioned. Never heard of such a man until long afterwards.

Q. Did he say anything to General Brinton about returning and joining Colonel Guthrie at Torrens?

A. I didn't hear anything about joining him. General Brinton asked questions about where the other troops were. Talked to Norris, and made inquiries where the other troops were, and why they didn't come to his relief, and how disappointed they were that they didn't come, and matters of that kind.

Q. Did he tell Colonel Norris that General Latta had given an order to Captain Aull.

A. I didn't hear anything of the kind. Didn't hear anything said about orders.

Q. Were you present during the whole of the time that they were together?

A. I was not more than four paces away all the time they were together. If anything was said that I didn't hear, it must have been purposely said in an undertone to avoid being overheard.

Q. Did you know Mr. Stewart, who accompanied Colonel Norris?

A. Didn't know him. Never heard of the man before.

Q. Did you see any person in the group not an officer in the command?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you recognize Major Stewart here as being the man who came up with Colonel Norris?

A. No, sir; I didn't recognize him. If that was the man, he looked very different on that occasion.

Q. Did you see him?

A. I don't remember of seeing him before.

Q. Do you remember of seeing any person?

A. I saw a man in the carriage with Colonel Norris.

Q. Did he accompany you, or did he come up afterwards and join the group?

A. He must have kept in the background—might have kept back behind us—didn't crowd up into the group.

Q. But did Brinton and Colonel Norris have any conversation by themselves?

A. Didn't appear to have any.

Q. Or in an undertone that could not be heard by the others?

A. Didn't hear anything of the kind going on. There appeared to be no effort to conceal what they were saying from any of the staff. They talked above an ordinary tone of voice.

Q. Have you given all the conversation that took place as near as you recollect it?

A. I couldn't give the exact wording of the conversation, as I never expected to be questioned about it; but the whole tone and manner of the conversation was as I have stated—asking for information on both sides, and an expression of disappointment on the part of General Brinton, why the troops had not joined him, his intentions as to procuring rest and food for his troops, and his desire, in answer to Colonel Norris' question what he should do, that Norris should go back and assist in getting provisions to him, and if there had been any order given it should certainly have been made known to me at once.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Will you state to this committee what transpired with the troops during that night in the round-house, and what took place there during the night—about their going out of the round-house—you were there. I believe you said that you were about the last man leaving it, didn't you?

A. Yes; the orders given me require me to be the last man to leave.

Q. If you please, just state to this committee what transpired during the night about their leaving the round-house, and what condition the troops were in when they left it, and what condition the round-house was in?

A. Commencing with after we were stationed in the round-house, the mob commenced to gather around, and, in a short time, they began to fire pistols, and throw stones into the windows, smashing all the windows, and breaking the furniture inside with the missiles they threw in. Shot the sentinels at the gate, wounded other men inside, most of them not seriously. We didn't know at that time whether they were seriously injured or not. Finally, a large number made their appearance with muskets, and commenced firing with rifle balls.

Q. That was the crowd outside?

A. The crowd outside. Along about dusk this thing got warm.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was this immediately before retiring from the round-house?

A. Saturday evening about dusk. That had begun to get right hot, balls commenced to come in very thick and heavy, and some of the rioters emboldened by our not returning the fire, which we were ordered by General Pearson not to, had come up to the gates pointing out at the head of Twenty-eight streets, and commenced sticking their pistols through the gates, and shot two sentries stationed there.

Q. Soldiers standing there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were they Philadelphia soldiers?

A. Yes; they shot those two men. They were dragged away by their comrades. Still they would not allow us to fire. While this was going on, we staff officers busied ourselves in making preparations for the slaughter of the crowd, which we thought was bound to come, and was the proper thing to do to extinguish the rioters, and stationed soldiers at the different windows, and got the artillery in proper position—brass pieces and two Gatlings—gave instructions to the infantry not to fire until the artillery opened, knowing, of course, the artillery wouldn't fire without orders from proper authority. When the fire got pretty hot and the sentries were shot down, General Brinton got pretty warm about it, and insisted upon being allowed to fire, and went up to one of the offices where General Pearson made his head-quarters.

Q. Did you go to General Pearson?

A. Went to General Pearson. I followed him in, and he explained the necessity of being allowed to open fire on the rioters, that he could not stand this thing any longer, that the men were being shot down in cold blood, and now was the time; and Pearson says, "No, no; we must hold on a little longer; the thing must quiet down a little; don't let us have any more bloodshed"—some such thing as that. General Brinton replied, that it was only getting worse, the longer we put off the worse it would be, and Pearson said, "No; we might kill more innocent people. There might be some innocent women and children killed," and made replies of that kind to justify himself in not allowing the firing, which the staff officers standing by—I think about four in number were present besides the general—they were of opinion it ought to be done, and still he would not allow it, and several of us made some remarks on the subject—several of the staff officers.

Q. Be kind enough to state what those remarks were?

A. They were to the effect, that if we were going to do any shooting, now is the time to do it, and the remark I made to him was, if we were going to kill anybody—at first I said there were no women and children in that crowd.

Q. Was that remark made to General Brinton?

A. I made this to General Pearson, in the presence of General Brinton and some two or three or four other officers.

Q. You were addressing General Pearson?

A. I addressed General Pearson, right over General Brinton's shoulder—alongside of him. My rank did not justify it, but my old army rank did, and I presumed to advise him. Says I, "If we are going to do any killing, these are the men to kill. There are no women and children—they are all active rioters;" and he replied, "No, don't fire. You do not know who you will hurt; the artillery will shoot clear through the crowd." Just at that time the men in charge of the Gatling gun again moved it nearer the gate, and he saw the motion outside, or heard the wheels of the gun, and he jumped up and went to the window and motioned not to fire. "Don't fire, don't fire, don't fire," he said; "if they fire, the balls might shoot some innocent woman on a doorstep a mile away down street." That disgusted me so, I sneeringly remarked, if they were afraid of killing people so far off as that, let us fire with infantry, that won't hurt any a mile away, by shooting out of a second story window; and he said, "No, no; don't fire; it will all quiet down; you will kill some innocent people." Then I turned away in disgust, and left him. He went down stairs, and was about three quarters of the opinion to go down in the shadow of the building and give the command to fire anyhow. I changed my mind, for fear that the Pittsburgh troops might be coming around the corner. I am sorry afterwards that I did not give the order.

Q. Were you in the service during the late rebellion?

A. Yes; five years and one week.

Q. What rank?

A. I went in as a private and came out as a colonel and brigade commander.

Q. As a military officer, what should you have done under the circumstances?

A. I should have opened fire with every weapon we had, at just about dusk, from the most available points at the time that General Brinton asked him to allow him to do so. The mob was so dense at that time they could hardly have got out of each others way. They were composed of very different material from the mob at Twenty-eighth street, where the first conflict occurred, the better class having disappeared, and the worst came to the front. The criminal classes, vagrants, bummers, and tramps of every kind, and such men as we call night owls—never seen in day time, were conspicuous in front, urging each other on. A class of the population that would benefit the community by fertilizing the soil. I think at that time, if we had killed those men, it would have silenced the whole riot.

Q. As a military man and having military experience, do you believe that General Brinton had force enough there to have cleared that track and taken possession of the railroad property.

A. At that time, if we had acted at that time, at dusk, we would had no more trouble.

Q. Do you believe that if General Brinton had the privilege to have let his command fire on that mob, could he have taken possession of the track and of the railroad property?

A. Yes; if General Pearson had allowed us to fire at the time General Brinton wished to do so, we would have destroyed the mob, and could have taken possession of anything around that neighborhood. All that would have been left of the mob would not have made any fight.

Q. I understand you to say in your testimony, that the round-house was on fire before General Brinton's command left it?

A. Yes; all the buildings. We not only occupied the round-house, but several other buildings that form a yard between them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Wings of the round-house?

A. There were shops. There is a round-house, and engine houses, and machine shops, and there was a wood-working shop, and a car repair shop, and an upholstery shop, and then the company's offices. They are all connected together, and form a small yard in between them.

Q. Were they attached to the round-house?

A. One came in direct contact with the round-house, or within two or three feet of it, and another within ten feet of it, and there was a space wide enough for two teams to pass between them. We had artillery in this yard and in towards the gates, and the different detachments of troops occupied the different buildings—men were stationed at the windows.

By Mr. Means:

Q. One more question, and I believe I am done. What kind of discipline were the troops under while in the round-house?

A. I considered, for militia, uncommonly good discipline. They obeyed every order I heard given. I will say this: very much to my surprise, from the time I left Philadelphia, there never was an officer or soldier under me that refused to obey an order I gave him. Further than that, I would say, their obedience to the order not to fire, under the aggravating circumstances in the round-house and on the street the next day, when they were fired at constantly with pistols, was one of the most remarkable exhibitions of good discipline I ever witnessed in all my military experience. That is a test of discipline.

Q. Do you know of any arrangement, or any effort made, to furnish the troops with provisions at Torrens station, or at any other place, after you left the round-house?

A. The first I knew about the provision business, was what I have said about Colonel Norris and General Brinton talking, and then, again, in the evening, when Major Barr overtook us, near the poor-house. He was sent back to arrange about provisions, and we got provisions in the night. We got some provisions at the poor-house.

Q. What was the messenger's name in the carriage with you—that rode in the carriage with you? Did you not say there was a party rode in the carriage, when you met General Brinton? Who was with Colonel Norris?

A. I do not know who the gentleman was that was with Major Norris. I was not acquainted with him, and never saw him before. Do not know anything about it.

Q. Do you know if he got out of the carriage and walked up with you?

A. Did not see him get out of the carriage. I could not say positively that he got out of the carriage at all. He might have done so. I did not look back to see.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did you say that the troops had orders not to fire upon the men that were following them, firing, on Sunday morning.

A. That was in order not to bring on a conflict as long as we could avoid it—to pay no attention to them. They were firing with pistols, and I did not reply to them, until they commenced to fire with rifles—a number of men.

Q. Did General Brinton give orders to that effect?

A. I do not know who the orders came from. I got orders from my brigade commander, General Loud.

Q. That the troops were not to fire upon the mob that were following on?

A. It was not so much on the mob following, as people on the sidewalk, and in the doors and windows of the houses, firing with small pistols?

Q. At the time there was firing by the troops?

A. After a time, when the rioters in different places, under cover, generally, at the windows, and behind signs, and around corners of buildings, commenced firing with rifles, then we returned that fire. In some cases the men standing on the sidewalk deliberately pulled out pistols, and fired at the rear of the column, just as we got by there. In one case I saw a man standing within four feet of a policeman on one side of him, and a squad of policemen, about ten or twenty feet on his other flank—saw this man, who was in citizen's dress, take a revolver and fire into our ranks, and no reply was made to him.

Q. No effort made by the police to interfere with him?

A. No; they looked on as if it was a dog fight.

Q. Did that shot hit any of the soldiers?

A. One shot I know took effect. They fired just as the rear of the column was getting by.

Q. At the police station?

A. It was right near a police station or an engine-house.

Q. Where the police were standing?

A. A group of them standing there. It was a municipal building. I think it must have been a fire station from the appearance of it. I looked back—we had just got by—and I judge, from the appearance of the building in Philadelphia, that it was a fire station. I was told since that it was. Those policemen were in uniform—quite a number of them—certainly seven or eight. There might have been a dozen of them, and no large crowd near to interfere with them in case they had chosen to arrest the man. I heard other firing at the same time, which, I believe, has been testified to by others as being done by policemen. I did not actually hear a policeman fire. There was more than one man fired—firing from the other side. I noticed this one man, particularly.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Where did this firing come from, parties on the sidewalks or from houses?

A. Some from sidewalks, houses, and doorways and cellars, from down street, in our rear, men from the corners of the streets we had just passed from behind projecting signs, in front of stores, boxes in front of stores. Saw some of them shoot.

Q. By pistols or muskets?

A. Those that fired from the rear were firing with muskets. All that I saw fire from doorways were pistols. Those from the windows were partly muskets and partly pistols.

Q. Were the police drawn up in line as you passed them?

A. Just standing on the curb-stone—that would naturally put them in line—they did not appear to be drawn up purposely.

Q. What was the conduct of the troops as they retired from the round-house?

A. They went out in as good order as from parade—regular formation. The only men out of place were three sharp shooters I had under my charge in the upper story of the building to keep men away from the cannon in the street. I was ordered to keep that gun quiet until the troops got out of the building. I had a detachment of men there that I held until nearly all the troops went out, and then dismissed all but three of them to rejoin their companies, and those three men remained out there Sunday until the last moment, and I got down opposite the passage-way through the building, and as the last file of men marched out of the building—the last file of the division marched out—I signaled for them to fire and come down. I fired at the corner of the building around which the rioters were sharp-shooting, to get at the cannon. It chipped off the corner of the building, and we made a run for it and got off before they made a shot at us, and the building that it was from was blazing at the time.

Q. The round-house?

A. The round-house and this office building, smoke pouring from the building at the time.

Q. Could you have remained in that round-house for any length of time after the time you retired, in your opinion?

A. Ten minutes afterwards every man's clothes would have been burnt off him if he had stayed there. As we marched around we made a sort of half circle. We went out Twenty-fifth street afterwards, went north to Penn street, and then east along Penn street, and as we passed Twenty-sixth, Twenty-seventh, and Twenty-eighth opposite the buildings, a square away, we saw the buildings, and that the fire had made great progress. The buildings were in complete blaze. Could not have stayed there ten minutes.

Q. Was your command supplied with ammunition to hold out against a mob?

A. We had very little ammunition then. During the night or just towards morning, I went around and made inquiry among the men and found most of them had from three to seven cartridges left. Here and there I found a man who had a large number, one man as many as twenty-eight, that had been obtained by some sharp practice—he would not tell me how. He would chuckle over it because he was an old soldier and knew how to take care of it.

Q. Was there a considerable amount of men that followed you as you retired from the round-house out Penn avenue?

A. When we looked back at some of the street corners, quite a crowd would make their appearance. They would not follow directly on the street, they would run down side streets and come up cross streets and come up on the corner at us. If we made a show to fire they would disappear—they would seem to follow the streets parallel with Penn street.

Q. Where did Colonel Norris overtake your command?

A. A short distance east of Sharpsburg, on the hill-side, in the edge of the timber, I think, about a mile from Sharpsburg. I do not know the exact distance.

Q. He got out of the carriage and walked along with the general. How far did he march with your command before he stopped?

A. The head of the column had stopped when he arrived.

Q. Was General Brinton marching at the time or was he walking along?

A. General Brinton was resting at the side, on the slope of the hill overlooking the stream. He sat down on something at the side of the hill. Colonel Norris approached and he got up to meet him. General Brinton had been marching at the head of the column, and halted at the head of the column, in order to get time for the guns to pull up.

Q. Was the entire command at rest when Colonel Norris reached there?

A. The leading brigade was resting. The other was marching to overtake the leading one. On account of difficulty in hauling the guns, quite a gap intervened between one brigade and the other.

Q. Did Colonel Norris walk with General Brinton with his command for any distance?

A. When the brigade with the guns overtook us the order was given for the whole column to move forward. By that time Brinton and Norris closed their conversation, and we walked along a short distance. We all walked along together a little ways talking, and he decided to go back, and the carriage turned around and Norris got in and rode back.

Q. What was the distance he marched with General Brinton?

A. I could not state the exact distance. I do not remember the exact distance. It was not a great distance. Did not pay much attention to that.

Q. When General Brinton and Colonel Norris met, was there any considerable excitement in the party?

A. The only excitement was on the part of Colonel Norris. He was very much excited, and seemed to be full of expressed emotion. We were all very cool. We got over our excitement and cooled off. Got out of the fire, and we were not half as much excited as outsiders.

Q. What was the language used by Colonel Norris at that time to General Brinton?

A. Expressed great gratification at seeing him sound and well—something to the effect that he never expected to see him again, and glad to see him—an expression of great gratification, great friendliness.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did General Brinton say to Colonel Norris he would be damned if he would go back to Torrens and form a junction with Colonel Guthrie?

A. There was no language of that kind used on any one's part, no violent language of any sort, no obstinate language, everything was pleasant, in the friendliest manner, the whole conversation the whole time they were together.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you present, within hearing distance, during the time that Colonel Norris and General Brinton were together?

A. Yes; the whole time. They could not have said anything unless they had whispered without my hearing, and I saw no sign of whispering. I might add that we were all very much interested in what Colonel Norris had to say, what was going on in Pittsburgh, what was the situation in the city, and Colonel Norris described the events that had occurred, so far as he had seen or heard what was going on in Pittsburgh, and we were intensely interested in listening.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What errand had Colonel Norris—what specific reasons, if any, did he make known that he came for?

A. I did not hear him specify any particular reason for his coming. I supposed, as a matter of course, he came out to see where we were, and hear what was necessary to be done, the proper thing for a staff officer to do; ascertain the whereabouts and condition of the troops. He seemed to want to know what we wanted and what could be done for us.

Q. Did he say he had been sent there by anybody—been ordered to go out and find General Brinton?

A. Didn't hear him say anything of the kind. I assume, as a matter of course, that he had been sent to see what had become of us.

Q. That you presumed?

A. Yes; that is, military custom did not require any statement. The proper duty of a staff officer, when any troops are scattered is to hunt them up and see what is the matter with them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you hear General Brinton say what he intended to do, and what course he intended to pursue?

A. He said he wanted to get a place to give the men a chance to sleep, and get his men something to eat. They were entirely exhausted, and remarked that they were fit for nothing until they had that.

Q. Did Colonel Norris ask him to go back to Sharpsburg, where he could be supplied with ammunition and rations near the railroad?

A. Didn't hear anything of that kind said. It would have aroused me if I had. There was no ammunition at Sharpsburg, and no way to get it there. It would have been an absurd suggestion.

Q. The reason I ask that question, there was some testimony heretofore, that he had been asked to go back to Sharpsburg on the railroad, where he could be supplied with rations and ammunition. I want to know whether there was any suggestion of that kind on the part of Norris or any one else?

A. I did not know how we could get ammunition to Sharpsburg if we could not get it to the round-house. They might get it to us in the country just as well. They had to wagon it wherever they took it.

Q. Did Colonel Norris propose to furnish you with ammunition or rations—propose to furnish General Brinton with ammunition or rations for his command, or say anything about ammunition or rations?

A. The word "proposal" hardly covers it. He said he wanted to know of General Brinton if he wanted to go back for supplies, or whether he wished him to stay with him. And General Brinton said he thought it was better to go back for supplies. He particularly needed provisions right away. They might have used the word "supplies" two or three times, but he laid great stress on the fact that the men were nearly starved. That was spoken of two or three times. We were in a pretty desperate condition for something to eat; hadn't eaten anything for twenty-four hours. I know that made an impression on my mind and on my stomach.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What time was it when Colonel Norris arrived?

A. When Colonel Norris arrived it was along about ten o'clock. It might have been from half past nine to half past eleven.

Q. You had something at the Union depot within twenty-four hours?

A. I had not. I sat down to the meal after the others had had their sandwiches, just before two o'clock, and was called away when I was putting the first mouthful in my mouth. I never got back. I was sorry my politeness kept me from putting it in my pocket.

Q. Where did you get your first provisions?

A. Along in the afternoon a man overtook us in a buggy with some loaves of bread, which General Brinton purchased, and broke up in pieces and gave to the men. Some of the men didn't get any.

Q. Did anybody in Sharpsburg furnish your men with provisions and water as your men passed through?

A. The men helped themselves to the water.

Q. Any of the citizens furnish provisions?

A. Some one came out that evidently recognized one of our captains, and came along to inquire for him, and handed him a bundle of cakes and crackers, which he scattered around among a dozen or twenty men—perhaps it might have been twenty-five. The men that got the crackers and cakes broke them up and passed them around. There was only a few got those.

Q. In marching out Penn street, after you left the round-house, at what gait did the troops march?

A. They marched rather slower than ordinary quick marching time, on account of pulling the guns, which necessitated their moving slow.

Q. Was there any haste at any point in the line of march?

A. There was a sort of break or stampede at one point before they reached the arsenal, where there was an unusual amount of firing. There was a sudden fusillade of musketry and pistols out of the doors, and out of the windows. A great many came from the second story windows at one time, or windows having the ordinary outside blinds.

Q. Shutters?

A. Slat shutters. Most of the houses at that time became two stories high. The shutters were bowed, and there came a volley of pistol balls and some rifle balls, and some from the rear. More than half of all the men that were hit during the commotion, were hit within five minutes, in that block. The firing was so sudden and unexpected, and two men were killed at the time, and one mortally wounded, and several others wounded slightly, that the men instinctively stopped. That was in the second brigade, in the rear. The others were beyond it, immediately where this firing took place. I believe I mentioned that all the attacks were made on the men in the rear. They would wait until we just passed before they fired, and fired from behind, alongside of the rear column. The first brigade continued to march on. Our brigade halted, and the men, by common impulse, without any order, commenced to fire in these windows, from which the smoke came. Of course, it stopped the firing from the windows. Some of the men fired from back down the street, and we opened the Gatling gun and fired down the street. The moment we commenced firing with that, we could not see a living thing down the street. Saw a dead horse, and two or three dead men, some smashed signs, and then we succeeded, by loud talking, in getting the men to cease firing, and just at that moment I noticed that the first brigade, or the first regiment, was double-quicking the men in the rear to their regiment, to close up the gap that had occurred in the straggling marching, and that had an appearance as though they were not marching away. The men at the head of the column were marching; in ordinary quick time, and in marching, the men would straggle out. It is very important, in a fight, that they should be together and touch elbows, and they were closing up, and some men in our brigade suddenly remarked, or raised the cry, that "the first is running away!" in the frightened tone of voice. It had that effect, and several others took it up and looked around, stopped firing, and saw that the first brigade was a block away from them, and with a common impulse, there was a sort of stampede or rush after them. The officers rushed around in front and could not stop them, and when they overtook the first brigade, they ran up into them in confusion. That was all the stampede there was. It was settled in a few minutes and got into shape again.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Do you know of any orders, written or verbal, urging General Brinton during the time he was in the round-house, or after he retired from there, within twenty-four hours, from General Latta, as to his course to be pursued after he left the round-house?