NOTES 1. (continued 8)

1696. And the rest in a line?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, JEMIMA SANDISON, examined.

1697. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.

1698. Do you knit with your own wool?-No.

1699. Do you knit for merchants in the town?-Yes; for Mr. Robert Sinclair.

1700. Have you a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]

1701. Do you deal with Mr Sinclair in the way which has been described already by the Witnesses you have heard?-No.

1702. Do you deal in a different way?-Yes.

1703. How is that? You get wool from him to knit into shawls or veils?-Yes; chiefly veils.

1704. The goods you get are entered in the passbook you have produced, and the goods given in are entered at the end of it?- Yes.

1705. Are the goods supplied to you always goods which you are requiring for your own use?-Yes.

1706. You do not sell any of them, or get them for your neighbours?-No; unless such goods as my own family require.

1707. Do you live with your own family?-Yes; with my mother.

1708. Do you get part of the payment for your shawls and veils in money?-Yes; whenever I ask money I get it. I never asked a shilling from Mr. Sinclair himself but that I always got it.

1709. When you got money for a shawl, how was it entered in the book?-I cannot say anything about that.

1710. If you were to take two veils to Mr. Sinclair and ask the money for them, do you think you would get it?-I cannot say, because I never asked it; but whenever I asked for a small quantity of money, such as 2s. or the like of that, I got it.

1711. What quantity of goods did you generally take at a time?-I cannot say that either. I don't think I ever had money to get out of his book. I was always due him something, and in that way I could not ask him for money.

1712. Then your account was larger than the value of the articles which you took to him?-Yes.

1713. If that was so, did you ever ask him for money at all?-Yes; sometimes, when I was in a strait for money I asked him for a little, and I got it.

1714. Then that was an advance, which he made when there was nothing due to you?-Yes; I have asked him for money when I was due him.

1715. But you don't know how that was entered in the pass-book, or whether it was entered there at all?-No; I don't think it was entered.

1716. I see there are entries in your pass-book: April 28, 1871, cash 1s.; April 26, cash 6d.: is that the way the money was entered?-Yes.

1717. There is an entry of worsted, 5d. was that worsted given to you for the purpose of knitting shawls to Mr. Sinclair?-I asked for worsted to buy, and I got it to knit for myself, and to sell again.

1718. Then it is entered in the pass-book just as goods?-Yes.

1719. Is there any difficulty made about giving you worsted in that way and entering it in the pass-book?-No; whenever I ask for worsted, I get it the same as any other thing out of the shop.

1720. Were you ever told that worsted was a money article?-No; I never was told that, so far as I can remember.

1721. Have you dealt in any other shop than Mr. Sinclair's in this way?-No; I have knitted for two and a half years for Mr, Sinclair.

1722. And always in the same way?-Yes.

1723. Are you a North Unst woman?-Yes.

1724. Do you live in Lerwick by yourself?-I live with my mother and my two sisters in a room.

1725. Does your mother knit?-No; she spins.

1726. Does she spin your wool?-No; she gets wool from other people to spin, and gets money for her work. She only spins for those who employ her.

1727. Does she spin for the shops?-No; she spins generally for ladies in the town, who employ her to make worsted for them.

1728. Ask her employers altogether ladies, not merchants?-They are just merchants' wives, and ladies in the town-chiefly Dr. Cowie's lady.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS ANN ARCUS, examined.

1729. You are a dresser in Lerwick?-Yes.

1730. How do you carry on that business? What is the nature of it?-I sometimes make shawls myself, and sell them. There [producing it] is a line of mine, which I got from Mr. Sinclair.

1731. Do you dress shawls or make them?-I dress shawls, and sometimes I make them or get them made.

1732. What is the dressing business?-Washing the shawls, and stretching them on the grass, and mending [Page 34] them and making them ready for the market. The stitches sometimes give way when they are stretched and then I mend them.

1733. Do you also bleach the shawls?-We whiten them with brimstone.

1734. You do that before stretching them on the grass?-Yes.

1735. That is part of the washing process?-Yes.

1736. Does every shawl, after being knitted require to be so dressed before it is sold?-Yes.

1737. The merchants don't buy shawls until after they are dressed?-No.

1738. Are your transactions in dressing shawls always with the knitters, or are they sometimes with the merchants?-Sometimes they are with the merchants, and sometimes with the knitters.

1739. Then the merchants do buy shawls undressed?-No; they do not buy them undressed, but they send some shawls out to be worked for themselves; and it is these shawls I dress for them

1740 In that way a knitter who works for a merchant has nothing to do with you?-No.

1741. When she has knitted a shawl with wool supplied by the merchant, she takes it to the merchant, and he sends it to you to be dressed?-Yes.

1742. It is only the knitters who work with their own wool who come to you?-Yes.

1743. Do you also buy shawls from knitters yourself?-No; but I get shawls made in the same way as the merchants do, and then I sell them.

1744. To whom do you sell them?-To the merchants.

1745. Do you send any shawls south?-No.

1746. Do you sometimes sell knitted articles to the merchants on behalf of the knitters?-Yes.

1747. When a knitter brings you a shawl to dress, I suppose she pays you in money?-Yes.

1748. What is the usual for that?-There are different charges, according to the size of the shawl; but for the general run of them it is 6d.

1749. And that is always paid by the knitter to you in money?- Yes.

1750. In what way is it that you are sometimes asked to sell articles for the knitters?-Because I cannot always have them dressed and ready for them to sell after the time they come in with the goods and before they go away again. These women come from the country, and I cannot have their things ready before they want to go home again; and therefore I sell them for them before they come back.

1751. You sell them as their agent?-Yes.

1752. And then you account to them for the price?-Yes. I get the price from some of the merchants, but others mark it in their books, and don't give lines. These merchants mark down the price of the shawl, and the name of the woman who owns it.

1753. And she, when she comes to the merchant again, arranges with him as to the price?-Yes.

1754. Is it within your knowledge that these shawls are always paid for in goods?-The country girls don't want money, and don't ask it. It is always clothing they need, and they get it.

1755. Then they just knit for the purpose of supplying themselves with clothing?-Yes.

1756. How is it that they don't want money?-They have some other way of doing at home, and I suppose they only want their clothing from the shops in Lerwick.

1757. Then the knitting with them is an extra sort of employment?-Yes; it is not exactly a livelihood for them.

1758. Is that the case with the town girls too?-No; they generally depend on their knitting for a living.

1759. Do they regard it as a hardship not to get money?-I can only speak for myself, not for them. When I have a shawl of my own, and ask some money on it, I get it.

1760. Do the town girls come to you to sell their articles for them?-No; they sell their own work themselves. I dress the shawls for them, and they get the price themselves-sometimes in money I suppose, to pay me with.

1761. You think they get sufficient money for their shawls from the merchants, to pay your charge?-They get money somewhere to pay me with: whether it is their own money or not I don't know. I don't take anything but money.

1762. You give them credit sometimes until their shawl is sold?- Yes.

1763. And then they come back you with the charge for dressing?-Yes.

1764. You shown me a line: where did you get it?-I got it in Mr. Robert Sinclair's shop-I think from his clerk.

1765. When?-When I sold my shawl-a shawl of my own, which I knitted myself.

1766. You did not want anything particular at the time, and therefore you took the line: was that so?-No. I asked him for a little money on the shawl, and I got it; and then I got the line, so that I could buy what I required afterwards as I needed it.

1767. Did you ask for money?-Yes; I asked for a little, and I got the sum which is marked on the line as having been paid to me in cash.

1768. He gave you 6s. in cash?-Yes.

1769. Was that all you wanted?-Yes. I did not ask for that sum, I only said I wanted a little money, he gave that.

1770. The line, is in these terms: 'C Z 91-Cr. bearer value in goods twenty six shillings 26s. stg. 'To cash 6s; to Vict. tartan 4s. 7d. ' ' White cotton, 6d.; wincey, 2s. 10d. ' ' Grey cotton, 6d. 'R. SINCLAIR & CO. 'C. S. '28.12.71'

This was last Thursday?-Yes.

1771. Was the shawl with your own?-Yes.

1772. Then it was just a sale to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

1773. You got 6s. in cash and 8s. 5d. in goods, and the rest is still due?-Yes, for me to get when I require it.

1774. Is that a usual way of doing business in Lerwick?-Yes; but I have got the whole of the price in money from a merchant for a shawl when asked for it-not for myself, but for a country girl.

1775. From whom have you got it all in money?-From Mr William Johnston. The price was 20s.

1776. Is he a hosiery dealer, just in the same way as Sinclair & Co., and Mr. Laurenson, and Mr. Linklater?-Yes. I have had money from them all whenever I asked for it.

1777. Would the women get money from them if they were selling the shawls themselves?-I cannot answer for that. I don't know that they would.

1778. Is it not the fact that the reason why you are sometimes asked to sell shawls for these women is that you can get the money for them?-I don't ask any money for the country girls at all; they never asked me to seek it.

1779. Do not the girls employ you to sell their shawls because they think you may get some money from the merchants, when they would not?-It is just because they think I can get a better price; at least that is what I think is the reason. They don't bid me get money.

1780. Do you think the merchants give you a better price?-They think so.

1781. Perhaps you can make a better bargain for them?-They have that idea.

1782. Have you never been asked by a country girl to sell a shawl for her and to get money for it?-Never.

1783. Then, on the occasions when you have got money, it has been for shawls which you have sold either for yourself or for town girls?-Yes, but particularly for my self.

1784. Have you sold them for town girls, and got money for them?-No; I have never asked money for any person but myself, and I have always got it.

[Page 35]

1785. How many shawls may you sell for yourself in the course of a year?-Sometimes there may be two.

1786. May there sometimes be three?-I could not tell the number particularly, but I have always one or two in the course of the twelvemonth.

1787. I suppose you are chiefly engaged with your dressing business, and have not much time to knit shawls?-Yes; the dressing is my only way of living.

1788. Are you a widow?-Yes.

1789. Have you often got lines similar to the one you have now produced?-Yes. Whenever I sell a shawl to Mr. Sinclair I get these lines, and then I give them to the girls to whom the shawls belong.

1790. Then they don't always want the value of their shawls in goods, but they sometimes take a line-Yes; and they keep it until they want something else. They are always served with what they want when they come with a line.

1791. You have not a pass-book with any of the merchants?-No.

1792. I suppose pass-books are only used where girls knit with the merchants wool?-Yes.

1793. Do you keep a pass-book with any of the merchants for the shawls which you dress for them?-No; I just get the money.

1794. Are you paid for them at the time?-Yes.

1795. Will the merchant send you a large consignment of shawls at a time to be dressed?-Yes; sometimes he may send a good lot.

1796. And you return the lot you have got when they are finished, and get paid for them when you return them?-Yes; in money.

1797. There is nothing entered in any book between you about that?-No.

1798. Are you the largest dresser in Lerwick?-I don't know that I am.

1799. Are there any others in the business?-Yes; there are a good many.

1800. Do they live mostly at the Docks?-No; there are one or two dressers who live at the Docks. They don't do so much as I do, but Mr. Sinclair has dressers of his own who do more than I.

1801. Does he pay them day's wages?-No; I think he pays them just as they work for him. The veils, neckties, and scarfs go by dozens.

1802. Is that the way you charge for these things?-I charge 11s. 6d. for a dozen veils, and the same for a dozen neckties or scarfs. I charge 6d. for every shawl, sometimes 3d. or 4d. if it is small, or 1s. if it is a very fine one.

1803. Have you ever sold shawls to any people except merchants?-I have.

1804. Do you sometimes sell to private ladies?-Yes, and gentlemen too.

1805. Do you sell to visitors in summer, and to people living in Lerwick?-Yes.

1806. Do you consider you are likely to get a better bargain with them than with the merchants?-I get the money from them.

1807. But you have no reason for dealing with them for the purpose of getting the money, because you say you get money from the merchants if you ask it?-Yes; but if a gentleman comes and asks me for a shawl, he has nothing to give me except the money, and I get it all in money then.

1808. Would you rather do with a gentleman or lady in that way than with a merchant?-It is only sometimes that they can take a shawl in that way; but the merchant always takes them.

1809. But would you prefer to deal with strangers rather than with the merchants?-If they were always here, I should like it very well.

1810. That is because you get a better bargain, and you are sure to get all money?-Yes.

1811. Is it not rather a favour to you that the merchant gives you money when you ask it?-I don't know whether it is a favour to me, but I always get it when I ask it. But I don't have such a great run of shawls as some of the other women have.

1812. It is rather out of your ordinary way to be selling shawls?- Yes; but when I do make one and ask money, I get it.

1813. Have you ever got the whole price of a shawl in money?- Yes.

1814. From the whole of merchants you have named?-No, only from Mr. Johnston; and that was for a country girl, because she was in need of it.

1815. That was a case in which you went out of your usual way, because the girl required it?-Yes.

1816. Have you asked the whole money from any of the other merchants?-No, I never did.

1817. You have only asked a part of it in money?-Yes.

1818. On a shawl worth 25s. that you were selling for yourself or for a girl, how much might you, in a general way, ask in money?- I have got as high as 10s. or 7s. 6d. or 5s., just as I asked it.

1819. But you never thought of asking the whole price of it in money?-No; but I was always requiring something that the merchants had to give me.

1820. Supposing you had a shawl to sell, would you give it to a merchant for a lower price if he paid it down in cash, than if he paid you in goods for it?-Yes; if I was requiring the cash, I would.

1821. Would you not do it in any case?-I would be glad of the money, certainly.

1822. Do you think it would be worth while for the knitters, as a rule, to take a less price for their shawls and to get money for them, rather than to go on in the present way?-I don't know about that. For my own part, I should like if the people were to get part of both-both money and articles. Nobody can live without articles; and it is just as well to get them from the merchants who buy our shawls, as to get the money.

1823. But if the merchants did pay all the price of the shawls in money, it would just come back to them, because, as you say very truly, people cannot do without some of the merchants' goods, and the money would return to them in payment for their goods. Don't you think, that would be a better system for all parties than the present?-Those who need money would like to get it; but some people don't stand so much in need of money as others. For instance, if I were knitting shawls only, I would need most of the price in money, because I have no other way of living but I don't mean to say that girls who work merely for the sake of getting clothing, require to get the whole price in money.

1824. But suppose they got all the price of their work in money, might it not be easier for them to make the purchases of the goods they require?-They would not get so much for their shawls then; they could not expect it.

1825. That is because the merchant makes a profit upon the goods he sells, as well as upon the shawls?-Yes.

1826. Are you aware whether it is a common thing in Lerwick, to sell shawls cheaper for money than they would be given for goods?-Yes, any person who required money would rather sell a shawl for 1s. or 2s. less, in order to get it.

1827. Have you often seen that done?-Yes.

1828. Have you often done that yourself on behalf of the country girls?-Yes.

1829. You mentioned a case where you got the whole price of a shawl in money from Mr. Johnston: did you, in that case, say you would give it for 2s. or 3s. less if you could get the whole price in money?-Yes; because the girl required it, and told me to do that. She wanted the money to pay her rent with.

1830. Was the price you got a fair price for the shawl?-It was at that time.

1831. Is there anything else you wish to say on this subject?-I have only to say that I think the girls ought to be very thankful to the merchants, for they have done more for them than any one in the place has done yet. They have bought their work, and then they have gone and distributed it throughout the country. This knitted work is not worn here; but the merchants have got a market for it, and therefore I think the girls ought to be very grateful to them.

[Page 36]

1832. Do you think they would not have got a market for their goods themselves?-No; plenty of them would never have been able to have gone to the market, even if they had thought of it.

1833. How long is it since that trade became general here?-I can hardly tell; I was a little girl when it began. The first shawl I made I got 7s. 6d. for, and I was very proud of it.

1834. How much would you get for that now?-They would not buy such a thing now, the work was so open. I can just recollect of it. I don't think I was much more than ten years at the time. I sold it to Mr. Harrison, and he and Mr. Laurenson were about the first who began to buy them. We got groceries and everything we wanted then for our shawls.

1835. You do not get these things now, because the merchants who buy the shawls don't have them?-They have them all except groceries.

1836. With regard to the girls in town who sell the shawls to merchants and get only goods in return, how do they do for a living?-Some girls live with their parents, and can do very well.

1837. But a number of them live in rooms by themselves, and perhaps have a parent or some other person to support out of their earnings: how do they generally do for their food?-I can hardly answer that. I don't know how they do; but I know that some of the girls that I am in the habit of dressing the shawls for, come and tell me they have sold a shawl today, and what they got for it, and that they have got some money. Some of the merchants give them money, and some of them tea, and worsted to knit another shawl with; and that is just money.

1838. But if they have to make shawl with the worsted, they cannot turn it into provisions?-No; but they will make another shawl.

1839. And they may get 1s. or 2s. in money?-Yes.

1840. But if they only get 1s. or 2s. on each shawl, that is not sufficient either to pay their house rent or to supply them with provisions?-No; but I think there are some of them who may get a shawl sold for all money, and then that pays the rent.

1841. They do happen to get that occasionally?-Yes; some lady who wants one for a present to a friend might buy it from them. That is the only way I can think of in which they can get their provisions; but if it was the case that the merchants had groceries in their shops, people would not require very much money, and then they would get their livelihood.

1842. What kind of goods do you generally get for your country girls in exchange for their shawls?-I do not buy them; they buy them for themselves.

1843. You get lines, and they choose the goods for themselves when they next come to town?-Yes.

1844. In that way you do not know what they get?-No; but I always hear them say that they got very good bargains, and they are generally well pleased.

1845. You say shawls are sometimes sold to a lady or gentleman passing through the town; I suppose, in that case, there will be two prices for them?-No.

1846. Would you ask from them the same price that you get from the merchant in goods?-We might ask it, but, seeing the money, we might give the shawl for less. Some people don't ask to have the price reduced, but others do.

1847. You just make the best bargain you can, in each case?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH MOODIE, examined.

1848. Are you in the habit of knitting for any one in Lerwick?- Yes; for Mr. Sinclair.

1849. Has any one asked you to come and give evidence here to-day?-Yes; I was summoned.

1850. Did any one ask you besides that?-No.

1851. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it with wool supplied to you by Mr. Sinclair?-Partly both, I generally have a shawl of my own in hand, but I always knit for Mr. Sinclair.

1852. Do you keep a pass-book?-No; I never had a pass-book with him.

1853. Are you paid in the same way both for your own shawls that you sell, and for those that you knit for him?-No; generally when I knit a shawl for Mr. Sinclair, he allows me so much for the knitting of it; but when I sell a shawl, I price it myself.

1854. Is that price paid in the same way that the wages are paid to you for knitting?-No.

1855. Is it paid to you in money in both cases; or in goods?-It is paid in goods in both cases.

1856. Is there not a certain part of it, in both cases, that you can get money for?-Yes. When I knitted for Mr. Sinclair before I was married, he generally gave me money whenever I asked for it; but since I had a house of my own, I generally manage my affairs so that I do not have to ask him for money. I usually take clothes for my children and myself from him without getting money at all; but if I did ask him for money, I have no doubt he would give it to me.

1857. Have you always got money when you asked for it?-Yes; whenever I asked I got it.

1858. Do you generally take the whole value of your shawls in goods?-Yes, I always do.

1859. And no money passes between you at all?-No, not since I was married; but previously, when I asked him for money, I always got it.

1860. Did you generally ask for a considerable part of the price of your shawls in money?-Yes.

1861. How much might you get out of a 20s. shawl, for instance?- Perhaps I might have asked him for 2s. or 2s, 6d., and so on, money.

1862. Would that be about the usual thing?-Yes; that was generally about the usual thing.

1863. Did you ever get the whole price of a shawl or of any hosiery goods in money?-No; I never asked it.

1864. Do you live at home with your people, or did you live by yourself before you were married?-I lived at home with my father.

1865. So that you did not require any money with which to purchase food for yourself?-No.

1866. You merely knitted to supply yourself with dress, or whatever you wanted for yourself?-Yes.

1867. Did you require for your dress all the payments you received for your knitting?-No, I cannot say that I required it all for myself. I might have supplied some of my brothers or sisters with any little thing they wanted.

1868. Did they repay you for that, or did you make a present of it to them?-I generally made a present of it to them, as I was at home.

1869. Would you have preferred to have been paid wholly in money?-I should prefer to be paid part of both, if I could manage it.

1870. Would you prefer to get half the price in money?-Yes, I would like that very well.

1871. Could you not get one half of it in money if you asked for it?-I believe if I had asked for it I could have got it, but I did not ask it.

1872. Then, if you preferred it, why did you not ask for it?-I told you I managed my affairs in such a way that I did not need it.

1873. But you said you would have preferred to have had half of it in money?-Provided I could have got it, I should have liked it very well; but I did not ask that.

1874. Why did you not ask it? Do you think there would have been a difficulty in getting it?-I don't know; I only know that I never asked for one half of it in money.

1875. Why?-I generally took a line for what remained to me upon a shawl. I might have got the money instead of a line, but I did not ask it.

1876. You have taken lines sometimes?-Yes, I generally took them.

1877. Have you any of these lines have none just now?-No, I have none just now.

1878. When you get a line, do you always take it [Page 37] back to the shop, and get goods?-Yes; I sometimes take it back to the shop.

1879. What do you do with it at other times?-Sometimes a friend may require a line from me, and give me money for it.

1880. If you were selling your goods for ready money, would you take a less price for them?-Sometimes I have seen me take a shilling or so less if it was all money.

1881. But you said you never got the whole price of a shawl in money?-Occasionally I sold a shawl to a stranger in the place in the summer time, and I might give it to him for a shilling less.

1882. Do you generally get a smaller price when you sell to a stranger in that way?-Perhaps I may sometimes have asked a smaller price, as it was the money I was to get.

1883. If you wanted the money, why did you not, when selling your shawls to a merchant, ask him for the ready money, and take 1s. or 2s. less?-I don't know. I never thought of that.

1884. Was it not because it was not the practice here to give money?-Yes; that is the truth.

1885. Of course a shawl which you sold to a stranger in that way would be one knitted with your own worsted which you had bought?-Yes.

1886. Do you always pay ready money for your worsted?- Always.

1887. Do you always buy your worsted from the merchants in town?-Sometimes; and sometimes, when the country people come down, they have worsted with them, and I buy it from them too.

1888. Is the price the same in both cases?-Yes, always.

1889. If you were selling a shawl to a merchant and taking goods, and if you asked to have part of the goods in worsted, is there any objection made to that way of dealing?-No; I never heard any objection made to that.

1890. Did you ever get worsted as part of the goods you received in payment for your shawls?-Yes.

1891. Often?-Not very often; sometimes.

1892. You never knew of any objection being made to giving you worsted as part of what you were to get for your shawls?-No.

1893. Or for a line?-No; I never heard any objection.

1894. Do you knit to a large extent?-Yes; knit a good deal

1895. How much will you make in a month or in a week in that way?-I could not exactly say. It takes a good long time to make a nice shawl.

1896. Is it mostly shawls you make?-Yes.

1897. Will it take a month to make a shawl which is worth £1?- Yes. I have other things to do, and cannot keep constantly at it.

1898. But you do make one shawl a month or there about?-Yes.

1899. So that your dealings in that way will come perhaps £12 or £14 a year?-They will be more than that. I would reckon that they would be about £15.

1900. Would that all be your own knitting?-I could not say that. Perhaps I might get some one to help me a little with a shawl.

1901. But it would be mostly your own work?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET OLLASON, examined.

1902. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants in Lerwick?- No; I knit for myself, and I sell the goods.

1903. How are you paid for them?-I generally make articles for which I get an order.

1904. From whom?-From ladies who employ me.

1905. Have you never sold to merchants at all?-I have sometimes sold to Mr. Sinclair.

1906. When you sell to him, are you paid in money?-I have asked for part of both-money and goods-and I got it.

1907. You did not ask for the whole in money?-No.

1908. Why?-Just because I thought it was not the custom of the place.

1909. Did you want the whole in money?-No; I was requiring the goods at the time.

1910. Does it often happen that you sell articles to Mr. Sinclair in that way?-Yes; I sold him two shawls lately.

1911. How much of the price did you get in money?-The price of one of the shawls was 35s., and I got 17s. 6d. in money.

1912. Did you ask for that?-Yes.

1913. And you had no difficulty in getting it?-No. I sold the other shawl for 28s., and I got 8s. in money and £1 in goods.

1914. That was the arrangement that you wanted yourself?-Yes; I asked it.

1915. You wanted the goods?-Yes.

1916. Would you have made a better bargain by selling these shawls to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger visiting the place?-I got much the same price from Mr. Sinclair as I had been in the habit of getting.

1917. Do you sell to visitors, or to ladies in Lerwick, because you prefer to do that?-We sell to them because we are not requiring the goods.

1918. And you prefer to sell to them because you wish to get the money?-Yes.

1919. Do you live with your friends?-I live with my father.

1920. And you buy your own worsted?-Yes.

1921. Where do you buy it?-I get it from the North Isles,-from Yell.

1922. You get it from people who make it there?-Yes.

1923. Do you generally knit for ladies who have given you an order, or do you knit your shawl and then seek for a purchaser?- Sometimes I get an order for shawl and make it, and at other times I make one and keep it until I get an order.

1924. Is it considered among you who knit, to be a better way of living that you knit to ladies than to merchants?-Yes.

1925. Do you ever try to dispose of your shawls to visitors who come to Shetland in the summer?-No, I never did that, for I generally get orders for them as soon as I have them ready.

1926. Do you know that it is the practice to look out for visitors in summer, or to send shawls to places such as hotels or lodging-houses where they stay, in order to get buyers among them?-I know that is a common thing, but I have never done it.

1927. Is that done because it is a more profitable way of disposing of the goods than by selling them to the merchants?-I think that is the reason.

1928. Or is it done because they get money from the visitors or strangers?-I believe it is because they get money.

1929. Do you get as large a price from a visitor in money as you get from a merchant in goods?-Yes.

1930. Do you know that from your own experience?-Yes.

1931. You said you had sold a shawl for 35s. to Mr. Sinclair: if you had sold that shawl to a visitor, or to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger in the summer time, would you have got 35s. for it?-I would.

1932. Have you got that price for a shawl exactly the same?-Yes; I have got it from Dr. Hamilton in Bressay, who was requiring it for a lady.

1933. You sold another shawl for 28s. Could you have got as high a price in money from a visitor for it as you got in goods from the merchant?-Yes.

1934. You don't know that there are two prices for shawls, according as they are paid in money or in goods?-I don't know that, for I have not experienced it.

1935. Would you have given either of these two shawls you mentioned for a lower price if you had got the whole price of it in money?-No; I don't think [Page 38] I could have done it, for I thought the shawls were worth the price I put upon them.

1936. Don't you think you could have got a higher price than 35s. for that shawl from a visitor?-I don't think it.

1937. When you sold the shawl to Mr. Sinclair at that price, you knew that he was buying it for the purpose of selling it again: was the price which he gave you not something of a wholesale price?- It was just the price I would have asked any one for it, because it was just what I thought it was worth. The price I put upon it was just sufficient to pay me for my worsted and my work.

1938. But Mr. Sinclair must make his profit off the shawl when he purchased it in order to be re-sold, so that there may be two prices in that way: do you know anything about that?-No; I don't know anything about it.

1939. You thought you ought to get at least 35s. for the shawl, and you were prepared to take as much more as you could get?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA BOLT, examined.

1940. You are the wife of William Bolt who lives in Lerwick?- Yes.

1941. Are you in the habit of knitting Mr. Sinclair?-I knit for myself, but I sell my work to Mr. Sinclair.

1942. You have no pass-book in that way of dealing?-No.

1943. Did you hear Margaret Ollason's evidence?-Yes.

1944. Do you knit the same kind of goods as she does?-No; I generally knit veils and shawls to Mr. Sinclair.

1945. Do you deal in the same way as she has described?-Yes; something like the same.

1946. Do you sell to other people than Mr. Sinclair?-No; I generally sell everything have to him.

1947. When you go to him to sell your work, do you get payment in money or in goods?-In goods.

1948. Do you prefer that way of dealing; or do you want all money?-I generally require goods.

1949. Have you a family?-Yes; the goods were wanted for them.

1950. You don't get provisions there: you provide them otherwise?-Yes.

1951. Do you sometimes ask for money from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes, I have asked for money, and I got it when I asked it. I have not sold anything to any other shop for the last fifteen years.

1952. Would you prefer to get money if you could?-I don't know. If I were getting money, I would just have to buy goods with it, so that the goods are the same to me as money.

1953. Do you know that any one can get money for their goods if they want it?-I know there are plenty who get it.

1954. But can any one get whatever money they require for their goods?-I don't know. I only know that there are many who want money; but for my own part, I generally ask for goods, and I get them; and if I require a little money, I always get it.

1955. Do you sometimes get lines?-Yes; and worsted to knit, which is the same as money.

1956. If you are in want of worsted, do you buy it from Mr. Sinclair in payment for your shawls?-Yes.

1957. Do you keep any account, or do you just deal across the counter?-I just get the things as I want them.

1958. You go to the shop and say you want so much worsted as part of what you are taking?-Yes.

1959. Do you get it at the ordinary price?-Yes; it is just the same price.

1960. Does your sister-in-law, Mrs. James Bolt, deal in the same way?-Yes; in the same manner.

1961. And, altogether with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. We always knit together, and what hosiery we have we always sell to him.

1962. Do you buy the worsted from Mr. Sinclair exactly in the same way as you would buy a piece of cotton or a dress?-Yes; just the same.

1963. The price of the worsted is reckoned up as part of the price of the shawl that you are selling?-Yes. We get it on a line the same as the other goods.

1964. Of course: there is no writing: it is just a transaction across the counter unless there is a line?-Yes.

1965. But if you have a line, and bring it back to the shop in order to get goods, do you get worsted for it just as you get any other goods?-Yes; I have got worsted on a line.

1966. Do you know that these transactions are all entered in Mr. Sinclair's book?-Yes.

1967. You have seen that done?-Yes.

1968. The worsted is entered there as well as the other things?- Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. WILHELMINA BOLT, examined.

1969. Have you anything different to say about the way in which you knit and deal in your hosiery business from what you have heard stated by your sister-in-law?-No; I have nothing more to say.

1970. You agree with her in everything?-Yes.

1971. And there is no difference or addition that you can state?- No.

1972. Have you asked for money and got all you wanted?-Yes; I never asked for money and did not get it. When I had a line from Mr. Sinclair, I just got the same goods from him upon it as I would have got for money.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS HELEN FLAUS, examined.

1973. Are you a dresser in Lerwick?-I dress a little and I knit a little.

1974. Did you hear the evidence which Mrs. Arcus gave to-day?- Yes.

1975. Do you do business in the same way that she described?- Much the same.

1976. Do you dress shawls for some of the knitters in Lerwick?- Yes.

1977. And you take ready money for that?-Yes.

1978. Do they sell the shawls direct to the merchants themselves?-Yes.

1979. Do you also dress shawls for knitters from the country?- Yes.

1980. Do you sell these shawls, or do you return them to the girls who bring them to you?-I sometimes sell them, and sometimes they sell them.

1981. When you sell them to the merchants, do you get ready money or lines, or do you get goods for the girls?-I get lines from those merchants who give lines, and those who give no lines mark them down in their books.

1982. Who gives you the lines?-Mr. Sinclair. Mr. Laurenson generally is the only other merchant I sell to and he marks them down in his own book. He does not give lines.

1983. You don't sell to any of the other merchants?-Sometimes I do.

1984. Do you sell to Mr. Johnston?-Not very much.

1985. Does he give you a line when you sell to him for a country girl?-Yes.

1986. Do you sell to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, occasionally. He does not give lines; he marks the articles down in his book.

[Page 39]

1987. How does he know the girl for whom the shawl has been sold, when he only marks it in the book?-I give in the girl's name to him, and she goes and asks for the amount that is marked in her name, and gets it.

1988. If she knows the amount?-I tell her the amount.

1989. Then she knows the amount, and that is sufficient to identify her?-Yes.

1990. Do these country girls sometimes ask you to get money for them rather than goods?-No; they have never asked me to do that.

1991. Do they sometimes get part of their payment in money?-I cannot tell about that. They always get a line from me, and I cannot tell how the merchants and they settle.

1992. Do you know whether lines are sometimes given for the goods which are sold by the knitters in town?-I cannot say anything about that.

1993. Or which are sold by yourself?-No; I don't know anything about that myself.

1994. You never took lines for the shawls you knitted yourself?- No; not for my own goods.

1995. Do you sometimes sell to strangers, or to people who are not in the trade?-No; I have never done that.

1996. I suppose you meet with people who knit a good deal, and have a number of transactions with them?-Yes.

1997. Do you know whether they prefer to sell to strangers, or to merchants in town?-Sometimes they require money, and at other times they require goods as well as money; and they would then just as well have the goods as the money.

1998. But if they want the money, can they not have it from the merchants if they ask for it?-I always got it when I asked it. For any others, I cannot say.

1999. Do you dress goods for any of the merchants?-No.

2000. Only for the knitters?-Yes.

2001. You are never employed by the merchants at all?-No.

2002. Can you tell me; why there is not a system of paying always in money for the hosiery?-Because it has not been a customary thing, and they never ask it.

2003. Would it not be just as convenient for all parties to pay in money?-I don't think it. I think we may just as well have the goods.

2004. But if you had the money, it would be better for the knitters, would it not; because they could buy what goods they wanted? They might have to hand the money back across the counter, but they would be able to make their own bargain for what they bought?-Yes; but they would get a less price for their shawls.

2005. How do you know that?-It is so stated.

2006. Who states it?-They generally say that if they get money, they will not get so much as in goods.

2007. Do you mean that the merchants say that?-Yes; when we sell shawls for money, they say they will not give so much for them in money as in goods.

2008. Who has told you that?-The merchants.

2009. Has that often been said to you?-Not often; but it has been said.

2011. Who has said it?-Mr. Sinclair: I sold shawl to him last night.

2012. And he told you last night that he would give you more in goods for it than he would give in money?-Yes, than he could give in money.

2013. What was the price of that shawl?-I got 15s. for it.

2014. Did you take that in goods?-Yes.

2015. Or in a line?-In goods.

2016. In goods that you took away at the time?-Yes.

2017. What would you have got if you had sold your shawl for money?-I cannot exactly say. He did not particularize that.

2018. You did not go into particulars, because you wanted the goods?-Yes.

2019. Do you sometimes sell goods that you get from the merchants?-No; for I always require them for myself.

2020. Is it the practice for some of the knitters to sell the goods they get?-I cannot say; I never saw it done.

2021. You never bought any goods from a knitter which she had got in that way?-No, never.

2022. You are always paid in cash for your own dressing?-Yes.

2023. Do you think the knitters generally would be content with lower prices if they got paid in cash?-I cannot speak for any one but myself.

2024. You don't know the feelings of the girls deal with you from the town?-I do not.

2025. Do you know how most of these girls are provided with their food?-I cannot say. Occasionally the girls don't require money.

2026. Is it not the case that a number of single women live in rooms in and knit for a living?-I cannot say, because I am not much acquainted through the place.

2027. You do not know the private circumstances of your customers?-I do not.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA MOUAT, examined.

2028. Where do you live?-I live in Girlsta, parish of Tingwall.

2029. Are you a married woman?-Yes

2030. Is your husband alive?-Yes, he is at Leith; but I have had nothing from him for five years. I live by my own knitting; and that is what has made me so anxious to come here.

2031 Have you any family?-I have only one son. He is sailing out of Leith.

2032. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes.

2033. Where do you buy it?-I buy it mostly from my friends- some of it from my brother.

2034. Is your brother a farmer near where you live?-Yes.

2035. Do you pay him for the wool?-Yes.

2036. To whom do you sell your hosiery goods?-I always sold them to Mr. Spence before he went away. I made fancy stockings and knitted gloves, and things of that kind.

2037. You don't knit the fine hosiery; it is all stockings and gloves and mittens you do?-Yes, and men's frocks. I made them for Mr. Spence, but since he went away I have been very poorly off.

2038. He was a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2039. Did he keep a shop here?-Yes.

2040. The same kind of shop as is kept by Mr. Sinclair and Mr. Linklater?-No. He had not so much goods in his shop, as Mr. Sinclair has, but he sometimes gave me money when I wanted it- either money or goods.

2041. Does his sister carry on the business for him now?-Yes.

2042. Do you sell to her?-No; she is not buying anything.

2043. How were you paid for your goods?-Just middling.

2044. Were you paid in money or in goods?-Either in money or goods.

2045. If you brought a lot of articles: and asked Mr. Spence to buy them, he would fix a price; and if the price suited you, you gave him the articles?-Yes.

2046. Did he pay you money across the counter?-Yes.

2047. Were you ever obliged to take goods from him?-Yes; many a time.

[Page 40]

2048. Did he tell you he would not give you money?-No; he did not say that.

2049. What did he say?-He just gave me anything I wanted- sometimes money and sometimes goods.

2050. He never told you that he did not want to give you money?-Sometimes he did so. Sometimes he was very unwilling to give money, but he did give it.

2051. Was that pretty often?-No; not very often. My articles were always good.

2052. Did you sometimes ask him to give you money when you did not get it?-Yes.

2053. Is it long since he left the business?-I have never sold anything to him since the month of July.

2054. Who do you sell to now?-I have sent what articles I have made since to my son in the south, and he has sold them in Leith.

2055. Do you get as good a price for them there as you used to get from Mr. Spence?-No.

2056. But your son sends you money for the goods you send to him?-Yes; he always sends me money, and his shipmates buy what I make.

2057. Do many women knit that sort of goods that you deal in- stockings and gloves?-A great many.

2058. Is it mostly that kind of knitting that is carried on in your part of the country at Girlsta?-Yes.

2059. They don't knit fine work there?-No.

2060. Who buys the sort of work they make?-Most of the merchants do so.

2061. Do the people in your part of the country generally get payment in goods?-Yes.

2062. Or in money?-No; they never ask for money.

2063. Why?-Because the country people are not needing it.

2064. Do they not need money?-Yes they need money; but when they get the goods the same they always ask the goods.

2065. You think there would no use getting money for your knitting, and just handing it back across the counter the next minute for goods?-I suppose that is what they think; but they would be better if they could get the money.

2066. Can they not get it?-Not very well.

2067. Why?-Because the merchants are not willing to give it.

2068. I thought you said the country people did not get money because they did not want it?-Well, sometimes there is no use of them getting it, and giving it back again to the merchant they are dealing with; they might just as well have the goods, because they have plenty of meal and other things to serve their ends, and they are not like us, who have to buy everything. We would be glad of the money sometimes to buy things that the merchant does not have, or to pay our rent with; but the country people have plenty of these things, and it is only goods they are wanting, and that is the reason why they take them.

2069. Then you have no reason to complain of this system of paying in goods?-We have to complain of it many a time.

2070. Why do you complain?-Because if we had money it could answer for other things, and in other ways than when we get goods; but we cannot get it.

2071. Is it a common subject of complaint in the country, that you cannot get money?-It is every one's complaint; and when we get articles, we are sorry to have to part with them for perhaps half-price.

2072. Do you sometimes sell the articles which you get at the shops?-Yes. I am in the habit of making very good things, and I am very sorry sometimes that I have to give them away at so low a price.

2073. But suppose you come into town and get goods in return for your knitting, have you sometimes to sell these goods again?-No; I have not done that.

2074. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY ANN SINCLAIR, examined.

2075. You knit for Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

2076. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.

2077. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.

2078. You just settle for the work as you take it back each time?- Yes.

2079. Are you generally paid in money or in goods?-Part in both.

2080. Do you knit shawls or veils?-Mostly veils.

2081. How many veils will you take to him in a week?-I could not exactly say. There are four of us besides me.

2082. Do you all knit for Mr. Sinclair?-There is one who knits besides me, and another dresses.

2083. Does she dress only your own knitting, or does she take in other people's knitting to dress too?-She dresses what she gets to do for other people.

2084. Does she do a good deal in that way for other people?-Yes.

2085. You cannot tell me how many veils you take: to Mr. Sinclair in a week?-We might do three in week, each of us, if we were able to work constantly at it.

2086. Do you work at anything else?-Nothing else-only veils; but we are so often in trouble, that I could hardly tell you how many we do in a week. There are three sisters and one brother of us alive now: my father and mother are dead.

2087. Is your brother a fisherman?-No; he is in a shop.

2088. You are not a married woman?-No.

2089. How much will you get for your veils when you take a lot of them to Mr. Sinclair? Are they sold at 1s. each?-It is generally very fine veils that we knit, and we get 1s. 6d. each for them.

2090. How many do you take at a time to the shop?-Perhaps a dozen, or perhaps two dozen.

2091. If you take a dozen, that would be 18s. worth?-Yes.

2092. How much of that will you get in money?-Our rent is paid from the knitting. That, of course, is money.

2093. You have to get as much as will pay your rent?-Yes.

2094. How do you get your provisions?-We get money whenever we ask it, besides what is taken for our rent.

2095. Are you tenants of Mr Sinclair?-Yes.

2096. You have a house from him, and he keeps your rent off what you have to get for your knitting?-Yes; and we have sometimes to get as high as 5s. a week from him, and we always get it.

2097. That is, for your living?-Yes.

2098. Do you get as much money in payment for your veils as you require?-Yes; as much as we ask for.

2099. Will you manage to take a dozen veils to him in the course of a fortnight?-Yes; or perhaps a dozen in three weeks.

2100. You are speaking both of your sisters and yourself?-Yes.

2101. How much of that 18s. as a general thing, will you get in money?-I can hardly say. If we were to ask money weekly we would get it: but since our brother's wages were raised, we have not asked so often for money.

2102. That is to say, you have spent more of the produce of your knitting in goods-in clothing?-Yes.

2103. Have you ever had to sell any of the goods that you got at the shop?-No.

2104. Or tea?-No.

2105. You don't knit any for selling, and you never did?-No.

2106. Do you think you would be any better off if you got all the price of your knitting in money?-I don't think it, because if I got it in money I would just lay it down on the counter and get goods for it.

2107. That is to say, you would get the same quantity of goods that you get now?-Yes. Of course I would not take the money and go to another shop with it.

[Page 41]

2108. Mr. Sinclair recommended you to come here today?-Yes; he said he thought I should come.

2109. How much did you get for knitting your last shawl?-I think we got £2, 10s. for our last shawl. [<Mr. Sinclair>, £2, 15s.] Yes, it was £2, 15s.

2110. That was a remarkably large one, I suppose?-Yes it was very fine.

2111. It was knitted by you and your sisters?-Yes.

2112. How long ago was that?-It was in the month of April or May, I think.

2113. How much of that did you get in money?-It was just marked in to our account, and we got the money as we asked for it.

2114. You did not tell me before that was the way in which you dealt?-I thought I did. You asked me if I had a pass-book, and I said it was just marked into the book.

2115. I rather understood that a settlement was made with you each time you took in your work?-No, we have an account.

2116. And that £2, 15s. was marked into it?-Yes.

2117. You did not take any goods at that time?-I hardly think it; but I really forget.

2118. Did you get any money at that time?-I don't think it.

2119. Did you ask for money?-No; and it was merely because I did not ask for it that I did not get it.

<Adjourned>.

Lerwick: Thursday, January 4, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

ARTHUR LAURENSON, examined.

2120. You are a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., Shetland warehousemen and clothiers in Lerwick?-I am.

2121. That is the oldest house in that business in Shetland, is it not?-I believe it is.

2122. The other partner of the house is your brother-in-law, Mr. William Bruce Tulloch?-Yes.

2123. You succeeded your father in the business?-Yes. I was in business with him for a good many years before his death.

2124. Besides carrying on that business, you also act as a trustee or factor?-Yes; in bankruptcies. I am also treasurer for the Shetland Widows' Fund under Anderson's Trust.

2125. And in that capacity you have the management of a considerable income to be devoted to charitable purposes?-Yes; I am a member of the local committee. There are three other gentlemen on the committee. And I am also treasurer, and have been so for a long time. I was appointed by Mr. Anderson in his lifetime, and I have always been so since.

2126. In the Shetland hosiery business you get the goods from the women knitters, who I believe are of two classes: those who knit for you, and those who sell to you?-Yes. There are those who bring the article and just exchange it over the counter. The greater part of our business now consists in the exchanging of goods, rather than in the employing of women to knit for us. Some years ago we were more in that way than we are now. Our principal business now just consists in buying their own productions, or rather, I should say, in the exchanging of them.

2127. By using the word exchanging, what is it that you mean to imply?-I mean to make a difference between that and buying for actual cash. If I were using the word, buying, it might convey the idea that we pay cash down. When I say exchanging, I mean that they bring us the article, and we give them other articles in exchange for it.

2128. By that you mean to imply that the transaction is understood as a barter?-Precisely.

2129. What is the character of the stock that you keep?-Drapery articles altogether, and general soft goods. The only grocery goods we keep are tea and soap.

2130. And the exchanges which you make with your customers for their hosiery are of drapery goods, tea, and soap?-Yes.

2131. Are these purchases made chiefly from women who live in Lerwick, or from women who come from the country?-Part of both. We deal principally with women from the country. The Lerwick women only make fine goods, such as shawls and veils, as a rule, although some of them do make underclothing too.

2132. That practice of barter has, I understand, been of long continuance in Shetland?-Long before my memory. I suppose, as Mr. Walker humorously remarked in his evidence, it has probably prevailed since the days of Adam.

2133. Is any proportion of the payment now made in cash?- Sometimes it is; and that custom, I think, is a growing one. When I first came into the business with my father, it was, I may say, an unheard of thing to give any cash at all,-such a thing was not thought of or expected by the women; but now for a good many years-I should say for ten or twelve years-the custom has begun to give a certain portion of the price in cash, and it seems to be gradually increasing,-that is to say, each year we are paying more in cash than we did in the previous year.

2134. Is that because more cash is asked?-Perhaps it may be, and it may also be from a greater readiness on the part of the dealers to give it. I don't mean to say, by any means, that it is the rule to make cash payments; but I say that the custom of making occasional cash payments, at any rate, is getting more common.

2135. Are you speaking from your experience your own business, or do you speak generally?-I am speaking of my own experience, but I presume that will be the experience of others in the trade as well.

2136. Formerly people did not use to ask for money at all?-No. When I went first into the business it was never thought of.

2137. At that time was the trade one of purchase, or was it one of manufacturing for the merchant?-I think it was pure barter.

2138. It was barter in either case, but was the trade usually carried on by purchases from people who knitted their own wool?-I think in former times it was altogether that. It is only within the last twenty or thirty years that the women have been employed, so to speak, by the merchants. It was about 1840 or 1841 that the making of shawls began to get very common here; and about 1845 or 1846 there was a very great demand for them. After that the veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, and from 1852 to 1856 there was a very great trade done in veils. These are the dates, so far as I recollect them.

2139. Shawls and veils are the staple articles of the Lerwick women's manufacture?-Yes; and they also make country hosiery of different sorts.

2140. That is the coarser hosiery?-Not necessarily coarser, but stockings and fine underclothing for both ladies' and gentlemen's wear.

2141. Under the description of shawls I suppose you include the cloaks which are made?-Yes; opera-[Page 42] cloaks, mantles, and squares. There is a great variety of them made, in different styles.

2142. At present are you in the habit of giving cash whenever it is asked?-I am.

2143. Do you remember, during the last few years, of having refused to give money to any person who asked for it?-I have no recollection of doing so for a good many years back.

2144. Have the people in your shop any instructions on that point?-My assistants would not give cash without coming to me, because such a transaction has to be entered in the cash-book. If there was any cash to be paid, they would come to me for it, so that I might enter it. It would not be paid out of the ordinary shop-till, because we have to keep an account of it.

2145. But they would be at liberty to purchase hosiery and pay for it in goods without consulting you?-Either my brother-in-law or myself would fix the prices.

2146. Then none of your people have authority to purchase?- No; they would not purchase without consulting me or my brother-in-law.

2147. So that either of the partners must be in the shop, or must be consulted in every case of purchase?-Yes.

2148. Do you give the same answer with regard to cases in which parties employed by you are returning their work?-Perhaps any small sums of money, such as 6d. or 1s., they might get in my absence; but if it was anything larger that was desired, they would be asked to wait until either I or my brother-in-law came in.

2149. But in that case, if they wanted to take out the whole value of the article, they might get it in goods, in the absence of you and your brother-in-law?-Yes, they might.

2150. Does it depend upon the state of their account, whether they would get the whole value in goods or not?-No. Most of them have been long known to us, and even if they were in debt (which sometimes happens) to a small amount, it would not matter much, if they wanted anything. I may mention, as an instance illustrating that, that last night a girl called and asked me for some money to pay the police assessment which had been charged upon her father. She said her father was not able to pay it, and they had no money in the house, and she asked for money to pay it with. Money is often wanted in that way, and of course I gave it to her.

2151. Had she a pass-book with her?-No; she just came in with a small article of fancy knitting which she wanted to sell, and she sold it and got the cash for it.

2152. Did she get the full price in cash?-Yes. She told me what she wanted the money for. Of course I did not ask her or insist to know what the money was for, but she mentioned it incidentally.

2153. How much was the price of that article?-It was a small thing, 8s.-a pair of lace sleeves for ladies' under-dresses.

2154. Would you say that that was a transaction of a very usual kind?-No; I should not say it was very usual.

2155. But if that had been asked at any time during the last three or four years, would the same result have followed? Would she have got the money?-I think so, with me, if the request had come from the same person, or from a person who had been long employed by us.

2156. That case you have mentioned was one of sale?-Yes.

2157. It was an article made with her own material?-Yes; it was her own material and her own article altogether. I have just mentioned it, as the latest thing of the kind that has occurred.

2158. Do you know a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-I think there are two Mrs. Williamsons in the Asylum: there is a Mrs. Williamson who has been there since the Asylum was opened, and there is another who has come there quite lately, within the last twelve months. If the question you are to put has anything to do with knitting, it will probably refer the last one. The first Mrs, Williamson is in very good circumstances, and I don't think she would be employing herself in that way.

2159. I speak of one who knits with her own wool, and knits fine articles.-I am sure to know her if she is an inmate of the Asylum, though I could not just identify her at present.

2160. Then you don't know whether she knits to you?-She does not knit to me.

2161. Or sells goods to you?-She may come into the shop to sell goods as any other woman does, but I have no recollection of anything of the kind.

2162. Is there another Mr. Laurenson in Lerwick?-There is a firm of R.B. Laurence & Co.

2163. Do they sell provisions?-I don't know.

2164. Do you sell bread?-I sell nothing except general drapery stock, and the other articles I have mentioned. There is a Mr. Laurence, a baker, and his sons are the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co.

2165. Does Mr. Laurence buy hosiery?-Not so far as I am aware. He was in business as a hosier some years ago but he is now only a grocer and baker.

2166. Did you buy a shawl for 80s., about three months ago, from a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-Not to my recollection. If there is anything particular about the transaction, that might enable me to remember it.

2167. You did not purchase such a shawl, and pay part of the price in bread?-No; I could not have done that. I may mention that the name of the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co. is generally pronounced by the people here in the same way as my own, they speak of them as Laurenson, although their names are Laurence.

2168. Have you sometimes paid large sums in cash for shawls?- Very often, in separate transactions. I have frequently paid cash down for particular shawls worth £2 or £2, 10s. I have given as much as £5 in cash for a single shawl; but that, of course, was very special article.

2169. Would you make any objection to paying so much in cash?-No; but I would be pretty sure the article was worth it.

2170. In the case you have just now referred to, was it necessary for the woman to make any particular representation as to her wanting the cash before she could get it, or was she asked to take the price in goods?-No; I did not ask her to do that. Probably when she produced the article, she said she wished to sell it for cash, and so the price was fixed.

2171. Does a demand of that kind for payment in cash affect the price for the shawl?-Certainly. We could not give so much in cash as we could give in goods; and if a cash tariff were adopted, there would have to be a general deduction made all round-a deduction equivalent to the ordinary retail profit in the drapery trade.

2172. Do the sellers of these hosiery goods to you understand that if they demand cash they must take a smaller price?-Yes, they understand that; and they would be quite prepared to take it.

2173. Is it quite understood that there are two prices for these articles-a cash price, and a price in goods?-Yes; I think that is quite understood. Of course, if a woman comes in with a shawl for which she is willing to take 20s. in goods, she would be equally willing to take 16s. or 17s. in cash, because the difference between the 16s. or 17s. in cash and the 20s. in goods represents the retail draper's profit, which is supposed to run from 15 to 20 or 25 per cent. on these articles. That is the case over all the kingdom.

2174. Would not the result to the woman be, that if she took the 17s. in cash she would only be able to buy 17s. worth of goods with it?-Well, that is true; but she might be requiring grocery goods or meal, or some kind of articles that we don't keep in our drapery shops. Of course there would be an advantage to her, because she might be requiring the cash in order to help her in paying her rent, or anything of that kind.

2175. In that way, does it not come to be a disadvantage to the women to take cash?-It cannot be a disadvantage if they require it for these other purposes. [Page 43] It would not answer them at all times to get drapery goods.

2176. Is it an advantage to you, as a dealer in hosiery, to pay the price of the hosiery in goods?-Of course it is an advantage to us, as retail drapers, to sell as much of these goods as possible.

2177. But is it any advantage to you, if by buying for cash you are to get the same profit upon your hosiery goods on a re-sale of them?-There is this to be considered: that if we were buying for cash exclusively, then we would only buy such things as we were actually requiring, either for orders which we had, or which we thought were likely to sell; but according to the present system, although I don't mean to defend it altogether, we might have a pretty large stock, and have really no orders, and no immediate prospect of selling them. At the same time, so long as it is a system of barter or exchange, we can quite easily give goods of one description over the counter in exchange for goods of another description,-for this reason, that these goods of another description, which are received in exchange, can be stored by us as well as our drapery goods. At such times we would not be willing to pay anything in cash.

2178. Then what you mean to say is, that the opportunity of selling your drapery goods is an inducement to you to increase your stock of hosiery although the market may be unfavourable?-Exactly; because we have already invested our cash in these drapery goods, and we may just as well have that cash lying in Shetland hosiery as in drapery goods, in many cases.

2179. If you did not pay in goods, would the result be that you might still purchase the hosiery, but at a much lower rate?-That would be one result of it; and another result would be, that when the Shetland hosiery trade was dead, as it very often is for many months, we would have then to give up buying altogether. At the same time, I don't say but what an entirely cash system would ultimately be advantageous to both parties,-both to us as dealers, and also to the women knitters.

2180. In what way do you think that that?-I think it would simplify the thing, and prevent a good many disagreeable occurrences. In fact the present system is a complicated, antiquated sort of thing; and I, for my own part, would be willing if some plan could be adopted for introducing a cash system altogether. It certainly would be simpler, and I have no doubt it would ultimately come to be as convenient to us all; but you will please to observe that the present system is just a continuance of an old traditional system that we who are now in the trade found existing when we came into it, and it is rather difficult to get it changed.

2181. Do you think it is any advantage for the women to be able to get 20s. in goods rather than 16s. of cash?-It think it would be better for the women to be always paid in cash.

2182. For what reason?-Because they would then have the cash at their own disposal, and they could do with it what they liked. They might buy their goods from me or from any other body, just as they pleased.

2183. Do you think they could manage their cash better?-I don't know, but at any rate they would be more independent. If they did not choose to deal with me, they could go to any other shop where they thought they could lay it out to better advantage.

2184. Is it the fact that they cannot get the price of their goods in cash just now?-I believe, as a general rule, that is quite true. I have heard the evidence of two or three of the girls who have been examined on previous days with regard to that.

2185. I am speaking now entirely of the purchase system. I will ask you something afterwards with regard to the system of knitting with the merchants' own wool; but you understand that you have hitherto been speaking about the system of purchasing?-Yes; hitherto I have been referring to the exchange of articles over the counter.

2186. Your general observations have applied to both systems?- Yes, to both.

2187. Speaking then, in the meantime, about the purchase system, there is now in point of fact a difficulty in getting cash?-There is no doubt of that, because it is the custom of the trade, and has all along been, that these hosiery articles should be paid for in goods. That is known and understood on both sides.

2188. Will you tell me exactly where the advantage to the woman lies who sells her hosiery for 20s. in goods rather than for 16s. in cash? Are these 20s. of goods worth more to her than 16s. in cash would be-I mean, apart altogether from the question as to whether she wants other goods than hosiery?-Is the money value of the 20s. worth of goods greater than 16s. in cash?-The money value of them cannot be greater, because the retail profit is included in that.

2189. Yes, but the money value to you is one thing, and the money value to the woman may be another?-I assume, as a general rule, that all the goods which the women take they are actually requiring.

2190. Is that the fact?-I heard some statements made here by some witnesses yesterday, and I suppose they were quite correct, since the women made them, but I was not aware of it before, that they had to take goods and re-sell them afterwards.

2191. You were not previously aware of the existence of such a practice?-No; I was not aware of it until I heard it deponed to yesterday.

2192. You say there are periods of depression in the Shetland trade?-Yes; for many months there is little or no demand for Shetland goods, and at such times our stocks lie over and accumulate.

2193. In such a period of depression I presume that your prices, whether in money or in goods, are lower than at other times?- They naturally tend downwards, as in all other trades, because in many cases we really don't want the goods. Having quite sufficient and more than sufficient of the article, we don't want any more of them; but very often we take them, just as you may say, to oblige the women, and give them tea for them, or things which they may actually be requiring, although we may have no prospect of selling these articles for a year or so.

2194. Is there not a difficulty in the trade also from the nature of the articles which are made?-There is a very great difficulty in that respect, owing to the want of uniformity in the articles, and the great variety of them. You can never get two shawls alike; you cannot even get a dozen pair of half-stockings alike. If you were to get an order for twenty dozen socks of a particular colour, size, and price, you would not be able to get that number of socks alike in Shetland.

2195. The result of that is, that you cannot give a large order?- We cannot undertake to execute it; and it is only such houses in the south as are acquainted with the Shetland trade, and who know that, when they give an order for a certain quantity of goods, they must get them varied in colour and in quality, and who make up their minds for that, and don't expect anything else it is such houses who generally deal in Shetland goods.

2196. Does that fact, and the want of knowledge of that fact, restrict the number of houses in the south with which you can deal?-There is no doubt of it. Suppose an English house, who had never done anything in Shetland goods before, were to send down an order for a certain quantity of goods, they would expect to get them as uniform as if they were sending that order to Leicester, or any hosiery district in the south.

2197. In what way does that affect the system of paying in goods?-There are limits to the demand. It affects the market. We don't have such a large market.

2198. And it increases the inducement to merchants to make their payments in the drapery goods which they sell, and upon which they have another profit?-Exactly.

2199. I suppose the reason for paying in goods is really, that you manage to make two profits: the profit upon the drapery, and then the profit upon the re-sale of the hosiery?-For the most part, we have to be content with one profit. No doubt, like all other men, we would be glad to make two profits if we could; but I think it is a rule in the Shetland hosiery trade, that [Page 44] the dealer is quite content if he gets the price for the hosiery goods which he would have paid for them in cash, even with a very good discount off; that is to say, with £10 worth of Shetland hosiery, for which he had paid that sum in goods, he would be willing to sell them for £10 in cash, and 5 per cent. off for cash. He would not expect to get a profit on the hosiery also.

2200. Do you mean to say that a lot of hosiery purchased for £10 you would sell to a merchant in the south for £10, and give him 5 per cent. discount besides?-Yes.

2201. Then you would make a loss?-No; because we have paid the £10 in goods at retail prices, and we have the retail profit on them, which is more that 5 per cent.

2202. You mean that you have a profit on the goods?-Yes; the goods amounting to £10, for which we have got the hosiery. Perhaps the profit on these goods is 15 per cent.; and if we sell the hosiery afterwards for £10, and take off 5 per cent. for cash, we still have 10 per cent. for our trouble.

2203. That comes to this: that, keeping it apart from your trade in goods, you make no profit upon the hosiery at all, but you will pay 5 per cent. discount to a wholesale merchant in the south for paying it promptly?-Yes; and I believe, in some cases where the dealers in Shetland don't have good connections in the south and good markets, they generally sell at a much lower price. I believe it is quite common in the Edinburgh auction-rooms for parcels of Shetland hosiery to be exposed for sale, and sold at a rate much lower than they could be sold for in Shetland. That, I suppose, is done by dealers who are pressed for cash; and they have to sell their hosiery stocks at any sacrifice, at what they can get for them, because they cannot get them sold in the regular market at a profit.

2204. Does it not seem to you that it would be a more reasonable way, in such a state of matters, to reduce the price of your hosiery?-It would be better to introduce a system of cash payments.

2205. But, whether there was a system of cash payments or of payment in goods, would it not look better in your books, and would it not be the natural way of dealing, to purchase the hosiery only at such figures as would enable you to make a profit upon it?-Yes; that would be better, decidedly. It might practically make very little difference to the dealer; it would just be taking it out of the one pocket and putting it into the other, but it would be more business-like, and a simpler plan.

2206. Is it not one result of that system, that as the merchant runs two risks,-a risk upon the hosiery and a risk (not so great, but still a risk) upon his goods,-he is obliged to make a larger profit upon his goods than he otherwise would?-I believe that is so.

2207. So that the goods are really dearer to the retail purchaser here than they would be if another system were adopted?-I think

2208. You say you are quite ready to adopt a system of cash payments, and to carry it out if it were usual in the trade?-Quite ready.

2209. Is there any difficulty in a single house proceeding to act upon that system?-There has been no proposal made for it.

2210. Do you mean there has been no demand made for it by the sellers of hosiery?-I mean there has been no proposal made among the dealers in hosiery to adopt such a system; and it would be difficult for one house to begin to attempt it unless there was some plan agreed upon, and some tariff of prices. I think it would be necessary, in the first place, to have some scale fixed.

2211. Would the market not fix the prices just as it does in other trades?-By and by I have no doubt it would; but what I mean is, that at the beginning of the new plan, in the transition between the present state and a new system of cash payments there would require to be some sort of agreement.

2212. With regard to those women whom you pay for working, do you generally keep pass-books with them?-I don't think many of them have them now. In fact, within the last seven years we have not been very much in that branch of the Shetland hosiery trade. We still have a few knitting to us in that way, and I think some of them have pass-books.

2213. How many women do you employ in that way?-I could not say precisely, because for several years our shop-woman has attended to that altogether, and the books which I have brought with me are kept by her. I can give her name, and she will be able to give any information that may be wanted on that subject.

2214. What is her name?-Andrina Aitken.

2215. I suppose your books will show at once the number of people you employ in that way?-Yes, these books will show, but I cannot say from memory how many there are.

2216. Has not each woman whom you so employ a page in the ledger?-I think, for the most part, they just settle for each article as they bring it. If a girl or woman is knitting a shawl, she comes in with it; there is a price put upon it, and she settles up there and then for it. If there is a balance, whether for or against her, it is noted up as at that date. We don't keep long accounts with them.

2217. How is it noted?-It is noted in the book at the place where the work is marked as having been given out. The balance is stated there [produces book].

2218. What is that book?-We call it a work-book.

2219. Is it kept as a day-book from day to day?-Yes.

2220. Is that the only book you keep?-It is the only book used for that purpose.

2221. Therefore you keep accounts, because when a balance stands against a woman you have to look back to where the balance is?-Yes; and where work is given out again, the balance is marked against her, that balance being agreed upon between the shop-woman and her.

2222. Is there any index to the names of the women in that book?-No; the girl knows them all.

2223. I see that the entries on two pages of it serve for a month?- Yes; the entries from December 5 to January 2 are all on two pages. These contain all our transactions with that sort of people, and it shows that we have very few of them.

2224. I see here an entry: 'December 5-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s.-retd.' Will you explain that entry?-D. means debtor. It means that the woman got supplies to the extent of 1s. The 11/4 oz. black mohair was the worsted which she got at that time to knit up. Then on the 21st she comes back and returns it. At that time there is this entry: December 21-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 6d.

2225. What does 'retd.' mean in the first entry?-It means that the work was returned on a certain day. The return would be made on the 21st, when she got out the same quantity of additional stuff, and then the balance is carried forward.

2226. Are there any entries in your books showing how the D. 1s. or the D. 1s. 4d. was made up?-No; I could not even tell what it was for.

2227. But it was a balance upon goods supplied to her?-Yes. It may have been tea, or some small sums of cash, or anything. Our shop-girl would go over it with her, and they would agree upon it that this was the balance due at that time; and then, when she came back with the work she had got out on the 21st, there would be another balance.

2228. Here is another entry: 'December 15-Christina Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 13s. 3d., D. 5s. 1d.-retd.' How does it happen that, under the same entry and in the same line, there are three separate sums?-The girl came on separate occasions and got these supplies, and they have been, entered separately. She has been back since then, because the work which she got out at that time has been returned.

2229. Then follows the entry: 'December 26 [Page 45]-Christian Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 10d. (in pencil), D. 11s. 11d.' The 11s. 11d. would be the balance on the previous three debtor entries, and the 10d., I suppose, had been got subsequently?-I presume it had been quarter it pound of tea for 10d. Christina Sinclair lives in Hancliffe Lane.

2230. Does she support herself entirely by knitting?-She lives with her father. She knits a good deal on her own account, and comes and sells it to us. These had been some veils and other things, which she makes for us occasionally when she happens not to have worsted of her own.

2231. The 11s. 11d., I think you say, shows a balance upon goods got by her?-Yes; I presume it is the balance, after deducting what she got for that work.

2232. What would she probably get for the work bestowed by her upon 2 oz. black mohair?-I suppose that would make four or five veils. Perhaps she might get 5s. Then, besides these little things which are entered there, she might have got some things when she was personally present, and the last balance would be struck upon the whole.

2233. I understand you to state quite distinctly that this book is the only one in which entries are made of any transactions with workers employed by you?-The only one. As I said before, we do very little in that way now; and this represents the whole of it.

2234. Do your sales to these women not appear in your shop day-book?-No; these are the whole entries. If they get anything when they come with their work, there is no entry made of it at all.

2235. If a woman, either a knitter employed by you, or one who sells to you, comes to your shop and has a large sum of money to get, is it the practice that you do not pay her entirely in goods, but give her an advance in cash; or is it sometimes your practice to give her a line?-We don't give lines at all; but I may say that it is very seldom any of them have very much to get.

2236. If a woman has something to get and does not want goods, do you make an entry of any kind to her credit similar to those debtor entries against her?-I see here an entry: 'December 26- Ann Anderson, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 5d., Cr. 7s. 6d.' That 5d. has been got afterwards.

2237. Then she could have come at any time and got that 7s. 6d.?-Yes; and more if she had wanted it.

2238. That sum is probably standing to her credit yet?-Yes; she has that to get just now.

2239. If she had got it, in what way would it have been marked out?-It would have been marked returned, and another entry made of the new work which she had got.

2240. I show you an entry in another part of the same book: what does that mean?-It is a memorandum of the goods given to women to dress. These are the goods given to Mrs. John Gifford. They are marked down when they are given out, and when they are returned they are marked out. There are more dressers than one.

2241. Here is one entry: 'January 3-Mary Greig, Trondra, 9 oz. black. D. 8d., Cr. 7s.' Was that a country girl?-Yes.

2242. Is it not usual for country girls to take away all the value of their goods when they come in with them?-I think that is generally what they do; but sometimes, as in that case, the girl does not seem to have been requiring anything.