NOTES 1. (continued 32)

12,702. Have you been at the Greenland fishing since that?-No.

12,703. Have you been away from the island since?-No.

12,704. Why have you not gone since?-Because I became a tenant of Mr. Adie then, and I had to stick by that and fish for him.

12,705. Were you not a tenant of his at the time when you were fined?-No.

[Page 315]

12,706. Then why did you pay the fine?-I must either pay the fine, or my father would have been warned away for me.

12,707. Were you told that your father would be put away if you did not pay the fine?-Yes.

12,708. How much did you pay?-£2.

12,709. To whom did you pay it?-To Mr. Adie himself.

12,710. Did you get a receipt for it?-No.

12,711. Was it put down to your account?-Yes.

12,712. Was it ever repaid to you?-It was never repaid to me, but these fines were repaid to some others. It was repaid to Andrew Williamson, for one. There were six men belonging to Skerries who went to Greenland in 1855, and they were all fined £2 each.

12,713. That is a very old story. Did it ever happen again?-No.

12,714. Have men gone to Greenland from Skerries since then?- Yes.

12,715. And they have not been fined?-No.

12,716. How did they escape?-I cannot say.

12,717. They just had their liberty, and nothing was said to them?-Nothing.

12,718. Do you think the fines imposed on these six men served as a warning?-I don't think so.

12,719. That did not prevent other men from going to Greenland?-No, not for a few years back.

12,720. But did it do so at the time?-No; some men went to Greenland immediately after that, and were not fined. I think the fines were imposed on these six men in order to try to stop them from going there; but it did not have that effect, and it was not attempted again.

12,721. Why did you not get back your fine, when it was repaid to Williamson and the other men?-I never asked it back.

12,722. Have you or anybody else been fined for that, or for selling your goods to other people, since 1855?-No.

12,723. Except on that one occasion in 1858, when your father was fined for selling eggs?-Yes.

12,724. Can you sell your eggs to the lighthouse keepers now, or to any person you please?-Yes.

12,725. You are not bound now to sell them to Mr. Umphray?- Not so far as I know.

12,726. Have you sold eggs to Mr. Robertson's man within the last year or two?-Yes.

12,727. How do you sell your beasts?-To Mr. Adie.

12,728. Can you not sell them to any person you like?-Yes; but the cash must be returned to him.

12,729. You mean the cash must be handed to because you must pay your debts?-Yes.

12,730. Is there anything else you wish to say about Skerries?- Nothing, except that I may state, on behalf of all the men who are in the town now from Skerries, that they would like their freedom to fish for any man who would pay them best, and be allowed to get whatever they require from the cheapest market.

12,731. Supposing you had your freedom, is there one to whom you could sell your fish for a better price than Mr. Adie allows?- There are no others at the present time, so far as I know; but opposition might arise if there were more buyers than one, and if we had our freedom.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, PETER HENDERSON, examined.

12,732. Are you a fisherman and farmer in Skerries?-I am.

12,733. How long have you been there?-This is the second year since I came there, but I was born in Skerries. I have been living in the North Isles for about twelve years.

12,734. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

12,735. How do you know that?-I just know it in the same way that the rest of the tenants know it. He is our tacksmaster, and of course we have to fish for him.

12,736. When you took your bit of land two years ago from him, were you told that you must fish for him?-Yes. Mr. Umphray told me so.

12,737. Did Mr. Umphray let the land and agree with you about it?-Yes.

12,738. He told you at the time that you must fish for Mr. Adie, and you entered into that agreement, quite understanding what it was?-Yes.

12,739. Do you take your supplies from Mr. Adie's shop, and settle up every year at settling time?-Yes. I have always had a balance to get then.

12,740. Did you get money besides that in the course of the season if you wanted it?-Yes, when I asked for it.

12,741. Did you ask for much?-No; perhaps for £1 or so, when I required it.

12,742. Were you at liberty to buy your supplies at any other place you liked?-Yes, if I had money to give for them.

12,743. Could you have got money?-I did not ask it for that.

12,744. If you had asked for money with which to go and buy your meal and tea in Lerwick, would you have got it from Mr. Umphray?-I don't know that. If he had known it was my intention to go with it to other parties, I don't think he would have given it to me, because he would have wanted for himself any profit there was upon it.

12,745. Have you any reason for supposing so?-I have only my own reasons for supposing it, and I would think so.

12,746. Has he ever told you that he expects you to buy your goods at his shop?-No. He has never said anything about that.

12,747. Has he ever had any occasion to tell you that?-No.

12,748. Do you think he would tell you that if you went and got your goods in Lerwick or in Whalsay?-I don't know.

12,749. Have you ever been fined for selling your produce to anybody else or for fishing for another than Mr. Adie?-No.

12,750. Do you want to have liberty to fish for another?-Of course we should like to fish for any one who would pay us most.

12,751. But you came voluntarily to Skerries two years ago, knowing that you could fish only for Mr. Adie there

12,752. Why do you object to that now?-I don't object to it, only I should like if I could get more for my produce.

12,753. Do you think you could get more for it from any one else?-I don't think I could get more for it at the present time, because Mr. Adie is paying as high price as any other man.

12,754. Why did you go to Skerries?-Circumstances led me to go. I could not keep the land I was on, because the rent was too high. That was in Fetlar.

12,755. Do you get your land cheaper in Skerries?-I have only half a house and land in Skerries, but I could not get that chance in Fetlar. I had a heavy tack of land there, and I was not able to pay for it.

12,756. Do you know anything about the price and quality of provisions in Skerries?-They are dearer than in Lerwick. I bought a boll of meal in Lerwick yesterday from R. & C. Robertson's, to take home with me, and paid 19s. 6d. for it, while the price in Skerries just now is 23s. I have not bought so much there lately, but I know by the peck price that that is the price of it. I bought a peck lately, and it was marked down to me at 1s. 4d.

12,757. Would it not have been less if you had bought a boll?-It might have been a little less, but not much.

12,758. To whom do you sell your cattle?-To Mr. Adie.

12,759. Do all the people in Skerries sell their cattle to him?- They generally go to the roup at Voe, and have a chance of selling them there.

[Page 316]

12,760. Do they take their cattle or ponies all the way to Voe?- There are no ponies in Skerries.

12,761. Are you paid in money for your cattle at the time of the roup?-Yes, if we want it. Of course Mr. Adie does not like to pay us the whole of it in money if we are in his debt, but if a man is clear he gets whatever he wants.

12,762. If a man is clear does he always get his money down, or is it put into his account?-If he wants to leave it in Mr. Adie's hands he will get interest for his money, but if he wants the money itself it will be paid down to him.

12,763. What are the usual earnings in the summer fishing?-They vary according as we are successful or not. Last, summer I think I had £18, 6s. for my fish from April to Lammas.

12,764. Did you catch some fish in the winter and early spring, before that?-Very little. I got perhaps 30s. for them.

12,765. Is the fishing of the Skerries men in summer as large as that of the men who come from the mainland?-Yes. Most of the Skerries boats are quite as well fished as the boats that come from the mainland.

12,766. Had you as much money to get as most of the mainland men?-I believe I had. I don't think there were any who were much above me.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, recalled.

12,767. How much did you get for your summer fishing last year?-£17, 19s.

12,768. Was that as much as most of the mainland men got, so far as you know?-Yes. I don't know what money they actually got; but I know the number of cwts. they took, and I know that none of them had much more than me. The highest of the mainland boats had 252 cwts., while our boat, which was manned entirely by Skerries men, had 246 cwts. 1 qr. 18 lbs. The mainland boat I have mentioned was one of Mr. John Robertson's. Ours was the highest fished boat belonging to Mr. Adie at Skerries. The six boats belonging to Skerries had all about the same take.

12,769. Do you think the Skerries boats generally had a smaller number of cwts. than the mainland boats?-In general they had more.

12,770. Was that because they lost less time in coming and going to the fishing?-Yes. The Skerries men had the advantage of Friday afternoon and Saturday above the Lunnasting men, who went home at the end of every week on the Friday afternoon, and did not return until Monday about twelve o'clock.

12,771. You had thus a longer time at the fishing than the Lunnasting men. How do you account for it that you had not one-third more fish than they?-I just account for it by chance or fortune.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, DAVID ANDERSON, examined.

12,772. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am. I have been there since I was a child.

12,773. Do you hold a bit of land?-Yes.

12,774. Do you consider yourself bound to fish for Mr. Adie?- Yes, the same as any other.

12,775. Were you told so?-I was not; but my father was when he signed his agreement for the land, about twenty years ago. I have the half of the farm with him.

12,776. Have you ever been fined or found fault with for fishing to another, or for selling the produce of your farm to any one else than Mr. Adie?-Never.

12,777. I suppose there has been no occasion to do so?-No.

12,778. Have you ever sold fish, or eggs, or butter, or cattle to any one except Mr. Adie?-No.

12,779. Have you always got as good a price from him as you could have got anywhere else?-I usually got the currency.

12,780. Do you think you would have been better off if you had had liberty to deal with another?-I don't know that I would.

12,781. Have you any wish for a change?-No.

12,782. Are you content as you are?-Yes.

12,783. Do you think the evidence of the two previous witnesses was correct with regard to the price and quality of the goods at Skerries?-Quite correct.

12,784. Are the goods dearer at Skerries than they are elsewhere?-Yes.

12,785. But you have no wish for a change, and are quite content to go on paying the higher prices?-I am merely content to fish for Mr. Adie as well as for another; but I think the prices which he charges for his goods in the shop are far too dear.

12,786. But you are not bound to take all your goods from his shop?-No, not if I had the money.

12,787. Do you not get the money at settling time?-Yes, at settling time I do; but hardly as much as will keep me going for a twelvemonth, and I must go to him for some supplies.

12,788. Do you not get enough money at settling time to carry you on for two or three months?-Yes.

12,789. After that could you not get credit from any other shop where you could get your goods cheaper?-I have no doubt I could if I knew that I could pay my account at the twelvemonth's end.

12,790. But if you had credit at another shop where you could get your supplies cheaper, and if you got no credit from him, you could get all your money from him at settlement, instead of having part of it in supplies?-I could, but we have our rent to pay to him annually. In the meantime we might have a good fishing or a bad fishing, as Providence sends it. If we had a good fishing, we might have enough money to pay the men from whom we had got credit; but if not, we would not have plenty of money and then how could we pay our accounts?

12,791. Does not Mr. Adie take the same chance with you?-Yes.

12,792. You might have no money to pay him for the credit he has given you?-That is quite true.

12,793. Therefore he has to wait for payment just as another merchant would have to wait for payment, if you get your goods on credit from him?-Yes.

12,794. Then why do you think that another merchant would not give you credit?-There is no doubt we would get plenty of credit.

12,795. Have you ever compared the prices of goods at Skerries with what you could get them for at any other place?-Yes; and everything is dearer there than it is in Lerwick. For instance, cotton is always from 2d. to 21/2d. a yard dearer at Skerries than at Lerwick. I have bought cotton of the same quality at both places for oiling, and I found there was that difference in the price. Then last year I bought a sack of meal in Lerwick for 42s., and we were paying 46s. in Skerries for it at that time. It was in February last year that I bought it in Lerwick, from Mr. Charles Robertson, and I bought some in Skerries in April or May. I think the freight to Skerries is 8d. a sack. We generally get it conveyed by Mr. John Robertson's packet when we buy it in Lerwick, and I think his charge for it is 8d.

12,796. Were these two purchases of meal of the same quality?- Just about the same.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ALEXANDER HUMPHRAY, examined.

12,797. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am.

12,798. You are not a tenant yourself?-No. My father is a tenant, and I live with him.

[Page 317]

12,799. Do you fish to Mr. Adie?-Yes.

12,800. Are you not at liberty to fish for any other person?-I don't know. I am in my father's boat, and therefore I cannot get clear. I would like to oblige Mr. Adie as far as possible by going in his boat; but if we have fish to sell, and if there is another merchant in Skerries who would buy the fish, and perhaps give us 3d. or 6d. per cwt. more for them, we cannot sell them to him. We must give them all to Mr. Adie.

12,801. How do you know that?-Because we have seen it.

12,802. When did you see it?-About four years ago. There was another merchant there, who was giving more for the fish, but I could not leave the boat and go to him when the other men in the boat were bound to give their fish to Mr. Adie.

12,803. Did you think you were free at that time?-I did not know. I thought Mr. Adie could pay as much as any other man for fish, but he would not do it; and I could not take my fish out of the boat and sell them to another man when all the other men were selling their fish to Mr. Adie. It would not have looked right.

12,804. Who was the other merchant?-Mr. John Hughson, Yell. He was offering 3d. per cwt. more, and yet we could not give him our fish.

12,805. Did you try to take your fish away to him?-I did not try. I would have liked to have done it, but the fish had been weighed before I could get my share, and it would not have looked well to have taken them away.

12,806. Did you speak about that at the time?-Yes, I spoke about it to Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor, and he said we must give our fish to him, as we were bound to do so.

12,807. Have you ever been at Faroe or Greenland?-I have been fishing to Mr. Adie at Skerries all along.

12,808. Were you employed as a beach boy there at one time?- Yes, for two years. That was five years ago. The regular fee then was £3 for three-fourths of the year, and £4 for a splitter.

12,809. When you were engaged as a beach boy, did you get most of your payment in supplies?-Yes.

12,810. You were settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; and I was buying their goods at the same time.

12,811. How much of your fee did you get at the end of the year?-I got £1 the first year. My father did as much for me as he could, so that I did not require to buy meal from him. I got about £1 at the end of the second year also.

12,812. When you were a beach boy, could you not get your cash in hand if you asked for it in advance in the course of the year?-I know we might have got 1s. or 2s. to serve a particular purpose, but no more.

12,813. Were you expected to take it out in supplies?-Yes.

12,814. If you had asked it by the week, would you have got it?- No; they said they would not give it until the end of the season, and it was fixed then according to the amount of fish that had been taken.

12,815. Was not your beach fee a uniform sum, whatever kind of fishing there was?-No; there was a sum fixed at the beginning of the year, and then at the end of the season they gave us what they liked.

12,816. Is that the practice still?-Yes.

12,817. If it is a good fishing, the beach fee is fixed higher?-Yes.

12,818. And you think it is always higher in proportion to the success of the fishing?-Yes; and according to the number of years you have been at the work.

12,819. How many beach boys and men are employed at Mr. Adie's station in Skerries?-There are usually about six boys and two splitters. In some years there are eight, and I have seen as few as three and four. They settle with us at Skerries, in Mr. Adie's house there, not in the shop. They brought the books over from Voe.

12,820. When you were settled with at the end of the year, were you asked if you wanted anything?-No.

12,821. You were paid the money?-Yes, whatever I had to get. If I was due £1 or £10, there was 1s. per pound of interest charged against me, and that was done with every one in Skerries. I knew a man who was due £14 last year, and he had to pay 14s., but he cleared himself this year. If a man's debt is above £40, that is £2 a year he has to pay, and they never can get out of debt.

12,822. Are there many men who are due above £40, and who never get out of debt?-As far as I can learn, there is one.

12,823. How do you know that he never will get out of debt?- Unless better times come, I don't know how he can. He will not be able to do it with the present fishings.

12,824. Has he been long in debt in that way?-I believe he has been for a good while. Sometimes the debt may be £1 more or £1 less but the interest is always charged.

12,825. Have you sometimes had a balance to get at the end of the year?-Yes; sometimes I may have had £5 or £6 to get, and sometimes nothing.

12,826. When you have a balance of that kind to get, does Mr. Umphray never ask you if you want any goods?-He never says anything. We just please ourselves. I would never take anything from the shop at Skerries if I could get it in Lerwick, because everything is overpriced there. For instance, there is soap and soda. You cannot get a bit of soap there under 6d. a lb., and soda is 11/2d., while here it is 1d. Everything I could mention is dearer there than here. Sugar is 5d. and 6d. there, and I know that in Lerwick we can get as good for 5d. as we get there for 6d. If we were paid money every time we come on shore with our fish, or every time we want it, we would be able to get our things very much cheaper from other places.

12,827. Are you sure the sugar which you pay 6d. for in Skerries is not better than you would get for 5d. here?-I don't think it is. We pay 7d. for hard sugar there, and we can get the same kind for 6d. here.

12,828. Would you not have a long way to go from Skerries in order to get your goods cheaper, even although you had your money in your hands?-There is a packet going to Whalsay every week, and goods are almost as cheap there as in Lerwick. They are far cheaper than in Skerries, and it is the same freight to Whalsay.

12,829. I suppose it is not very easy to get goods carried to Skerries?-Unless from Whalsay it is not very easy. We can get them quarterly; but we could get them every week by the packet to Whalsay, by sending a letter to Lerwick, and then we could get them brought to Skerries when we had a chance.

12,830. Does Mr. Robertson's packet only go in the summer season?-Yes; but the Commissioners' mail packet comes every week to Whalsay, and any of us could go over there and bring whatever small thing we wanted.

<Adjourned>.

[Page 318]

BODDAM, DUNROSSNESS, FRIDAY, JANUARY 26, 1872

ROBERT HENDERSON, examined.

12,831. You are the son of Mr. Gavin Henderson, who is a merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness?-I am.

12,832. You have charge of his business now?-Yes, mostly.

12,833. Are you in partnership with him?-No.

12,834. You are his manager?-Yes.

12,835. Of what does your stock consist?-It is most impossible to say. It consists of drapery goods, groceries, ironmongery, coal, and I don't know what more.

12,836. Do you buy some hosiery?-A little; and we buy eggs as well.

12,837. I believe you have about the largest business in the neighbourhood?-We do a reasonable business.

12,838. You are not engaged in the fishing in any way?-We buy fish, but we have no boats of our own.

12,839. From whom do you buy fish?-From any parties who present them to us. We buy scarcely any in summer. It is mostly in winter that we get them, because in the summer months the boats are all engaged to certain fish-merchants, and the men sell their fish to them or to the proprietors.

12,840. Is it generally the proprietors who have the fishing in their own hands?-Some of them have, and some have not. Mr. Bruce of Simbister does not have the fishing in his hands; the others have.

12,841. To whom do Mr. Bruce of Simbister's tenants generally fish?-His tenants on the west side, those round us, fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun., Lerwick, and for Mr. Robert Mullay, Lerwick.

12,842. How many boats has Mr. Mullay?-I don't know exactly; perhaps seven or eight. He has a station at Ireland, and Mr. Robertson, jun. has one at Spiggie. They have no shops there. They have only the stations hired from Mr. Bruce. Those of Mr. Bruce's tenants who fish from Spiggie are bound to fish for Mr. Robertson during the summer months, and those who fish from Ireland at that time are bound to fish for Mr. Mullay.

12,843. Do you understand that these tenants are bound to fish for these merchants?-Yes.

12,844. Is that the understanding in the district?-Yes; but during the summer months only.

12,845. Do you know that from the men themselves?-Yes.

12,846. Have they often told you that they are bound to fish for these tacksmen?-They have often told me that; but they are not tacksmen, they only have the stations.

12,847. Do these men deal a great deal at your shop?-Yes.

12,848. Have they ever told you in what way they are bound, or how they know they are bound?-Robert Robertson, of Noss, once wished to have liberty to dry his fish for himself, and to fish from Spiggie, and he would force a beach for himself quite apart from Mr. Robertson's beach, but he was refused liberty.

12,849. When was that?-I could not say; it was about four or five years ago, I think.

12,850. Do you know any one else who was interfered with in the same way?-I know a man from Ireland who was obliged to beach and draw his boat in a ghive some distance from Ireland, in order to sell his fish to Charles Nicholson, Scalloway. His name was Gavin Goudie.

12,851. Are these the only curers for whom the tenants of Mr. Bruce of Simbister fish?-No. If they do not fish from Spiggie or from Ireland, they are at liberty to fish for whom they like. They can dry their fish or sell them wet, just as they please. A good many of them fish from about Scatness and West Voe, and sell their fish to Hay & Co. A few of them fish from Voe, and sell their fish to Mr. Grierson of Quendale.

12,852. But they are at liberty to sell to any person they like?- Yes. Mr. Grierson of Quendale has a station at Voe in tack, and the fishermen are not bound to fish for him unless they like.

12,853. Have you dealings with all the fishermen in your neighbourhood on the Simbister estate?-Not with all, but with most of them.

12,854. And also with some on the Sumburgh and Quendale estates?-Yes.

12,855. Are your transactions with these men generally paid for in cash, or do you run accounts with them?-We run accounts with them partly, and their purchases are paid in cash partly.

12,856. Do you run accounts with them for any length of time?- For a year. There is only a yearly settlement here, and we run accounts with them to the end of the year, when they settle with their fish-merchants. Then, as a rule, they pay us, though there are exceptions.

12,857. How do these exceptions occur?-Perhaps they are not able to pay us.

12,858. I suppose you are not very willing to give long credits in that way?-No. We would wish very much to have the credit system done away with; but we must do it.

12,859. You have not got the same security as a curer for whom the men are fishing?-No.

12,860. Do you think that more of the fishermen would deal with you if you were able to afford them the same credit as they get from the curers?-It is very likely they would.

12,861. But you restrict their credits?-Yes.

12,862. Have you understood from any of the fishermen, that they are obliged to deal at Grutness or Quendale in order that they may get their goods on credit?-Mr. Bruce, so far, as I know, does not interfere with his men with regard to the purchase of their groceries or goods. If they buy at Grutness, I suppose it will be so much the better; but if they did not buy there, I never heard any of them say that Mr. Bruce would say anything to them.

12,863. That is not the question. What I asked was, whether the fact that they can get a longer credit there, and there only, and that they have no ready money, obliged them to go to these shops?- Very often it does.

12,864. Do you know that from the statements of the fishermen themselves?-Yes.

12,865. Is it a common feeling amongst men with whom you come in contact, that they would like to have liberty to fish for themselves?-Yes, very much so.

12,866. Do they speak as if they felt that the restriction which is put upon them with regard to fishing is also a restriction as to the shop at which they are to deal?-If they have no cash, it comes to be a restriction. What the men want is to have the stations in their own power, so as to be able to dry their fish for themselves, or to sell to whom they like. That would give a competition in trade; but while the fishermen are bound to fish to certain parties, it causes a monopoly in trade.

12,867. What is about the utmost amount to which you can allow an account to run in the course of the year?-It depends very much upon the position of the party who is running the account. Ordinarily we allow an account with fishermen to run from 30s. to £2, but some of them run accounts up to £10.

12,868. Have you any men on the Sumburgh or Quendale estates who have run up accounts as high as £8 or [Page 319]£10?-Not on Sumburgh or Quendale to that extent; but I daresay some of them do run up accounts to the extent of £5 or £6 or £7.

12,869. Are the men who run accounts to that extent fewer upon these estates than upon the Simbister estate and the other estates in the district?-We don't run such heavy accounts as that with any men at all, unless they have something else to fall back upon

12,870. What was about the average price of your meal in 1870?- It varied very much. Before the French War broke out, the meal was very low. I remember that in the first of the season we were selling oatmeal for 17s. per boll, or 34s. a sack.

12,871. How much was that per lispund?-4s. 3d.; and it rose throughout the season to about 21s. 6d. or 22s., or 5s. 6d. per lispund.

12,872. Is the lispund less than a quarter boll?-We give it nearly about the same size. We give 34 lbs. to a lispund.

12,873 Is that usual in the country?-No; 32 lbs is the usual measure. We give 8 lbs. for a peck, and charge a less price for it than for a quarter of a lispund. We have the meal in boll bags, and when parties want a boll we sell it without breaking bulk.

12,874. Would you look over your books for 1870, and ascertain the highest and the lowest price at which you bought and sold meal in the course of that year?-Yes.*

12,875 At what are you selling tobacco?-We sell Irish roll at 11d. per quarter, and mid at 1s. per quarter. We sell the mid at 31/2d. per ounce, or 6d. for 2 ounces.

12,876 What is the price of the best quality of soft sugar?-We sell soft brown sugar at 5d. per lb. We sell our best crushed sugar at 6d., and hard sugar at 61/2d.

12,877 Do you sell lines?-Sometimes. Our price for 2-lb. lines is 2s., for 21/4-lb. lines 2s. 3d., and for hooks is 8d. per 100.

12,878. Are these quite as good as are sold by your neighbours?-I suppose they are. We sell them freely.

12,879. What is the price of a 60-fathom line?-We don't keep these, but they generally come to about 1s. per lb. The price depends upon the weight. When we buy fish we do so at a stated price, which is fixed at the time of the purchase Most of the fish we buy are in the winter time, from those tenants of Mr. Bruce who fish for Hay & Co. and Mr. Robertson and Mr. Mullay in summer. In winter they are free to sell to whom they like; and we put a price on the fish, and give them cash over the counter when the fish are delivered.

12,880. Do they sometimes take away the price of their fish in goods?-They can please themselves. We pay them cash, and they buy goods or not as they like

12,881. Do you always give them cash?-Yes, when we have got it. Sometimes we may give them an I O U, and others prefer to have the amount put to their accounts but the fish are bought at a certain price, and that is divided at the time amongst the men.

12,882. In winter the boat's crew, I suppose, consists of 3 or 4 men?-Yes.

12,883. Is any difficulty experienced in fixing the shares of the men at the time?-No. The price is just divided among them according to the way in which they want it.

12,884. You ascertain the price of the whole catch of the boat, and then each man takes his third or his fourth, as the case may be?- Yes, whatever the catch may be, each man gets his share of it.

12,885. Would there be any difficulty in paying for the fish in that way in the summer fishing?-In the summer fishing it would not work very well, because it would not do to give the men their cash just off-hand; but there is a way in which it could be done equally well. Suppose the men knew what the price of the fish was to be, the amount could be left in the hands of the parties who bought their fish from them. They don't require to draw all their money at once.

12,886. Do you mean that they could draw some of it?-Yes. What I hear the men complain of is, that they don't know what price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season; but if they had the fishing in their own hands, so that they could sell to whom they liked, they could make their bargain at the commencement of the season if they chose, in the same way as the herring fishing is carried on at Wick.

12,887. Or they might fix the price from week to week, or from month to month?-Yes. If there were several parties who were at liberty to buy the fish from the men, that would cause competition in the market, and the probability is the price would go higher.

12,888. But you think it would not work so well to have the men paid every time the boat came in in summer?-I don't think it would, because they would be liable to spend the money.

12,889. Is that the only reason why you think that system would not work?-Yes, the only reason.

12,890. Would there be any difficulty in settling?-We don't experience any difficulty in settling with our men.

12,891. Might it not require a curer at a station such as Spiggie or Ireland, or at a more distant place, to have a more efficient factor there than he would otherwise have, and perhaps also to keep money there?-That might be avoided. For instance, Mr. Irvine has some workmen here who work for him in building houses and other things; and he tells their foreman to hand us in a note of their time every fortnight, in order that we may settle up with the men. The men don't choose to draw their money whenever it falls due; but we give the foreman a few pounds, and he gives them as much money as they like to draw. Some of them don't draw any of their wages until the end of the season, when they get it to pay their rents with; and the fishing might be managed in the same way.

12,892. Are those masons and labourers who are employed by Mr. Irvine?-Yes; on the Simbister estate. Of course they know the money is there, and they can draw it every fortnight if they like; but there is nothing to prevent them from leaving it until the end of the season, or whenever they wish to square up.

12,893. I suppose these men very often have accounts running at the same time?-Some of them have, and some have not; but that is quite a distinct matter. Their wages are always paid to them in cash.

12,894. But they often don't choose to ask for it?-They sometimes don't choose to ask for it till the end of the season.

12,895. Do you think they have a fear themselves that it might be spent if they took it sooner?-It is quite possible they have.

12,896. And they get what they want in the meantime at your shop, or anywhere else where they can have credit?-They may or they may not, as they like. That is entirely at their own option; but they can get supplies of cash from their foreman when they want them.

12,897. Is it the foreman who gives the money to them?-Yes. We supply the foreman with cash when he wants it; and then he gives it to the men when they want it, and charges it against them.

12,898. You have a note of the men's time furnished [Page 320] to you every fortnight by the foreman. What is the purpose of that?-In order that the accounts may be regularly kept.

12,899. Who keeps the accounts?-We do.

12,900. Do you add up the men's time every fortnight, and make a note of the amount that is due to each?-Yes.

12,901. In that way, supposing a man has an account with you, you know whether he has been overdrawing it in goods or otherwise?-Yes; but he draws the cash from the foreman if he applies for it, and then the foreman gives us a note of the cash he has paid, and of the man's time for the fortnight.

12,902. But if the man takes out goods he settles with you?-Yes; or if he draws the money from the foreman, he pays the goods he has got from us with it.

12,903. If he has an account with you, in that case he will settle with you at once?-If he has an account with us he allows his account to go on, and the foreman pays him cash when he wants it When he gets cash from the foreman, it is at his own option to square his account with it or not, as he likes.

12,904. If the man is in your debt, do you still give him the cash?-Yes.

12,905. But you could retain it if there was any doubt about the men's solvency?-We always do hand them the cash.

12,906. You have never had occasion to retain it on account of a man's delay or refusal to pay his debt?-No.

12,907. Do you sometimes get stray lots of fish during the summer?-Not much. Sometimes, perhaps, we get a 'supper piltock.' The men take home a few fish for their own family use, Sometimes a man has large family, and another man has a small family, but they require to take home an equal number of fish to each of them; and then the man who does not require so much sells what he has got extra and that is called a supper piltock.

12,908. I suppose there is not much smuggling of fish going on here?-I don't think so; not in the summer time.

12,909. But if a man who is bound to fish wants a little ready money, does he not come to you with a lot of fish?-Not in the summer time; they would not be safe to do that. They would get their warning if they sold their fish past their proprietor in the summer time.

12,910. If it were known?-Yes, if it were known.

12,911. But don't they try to do it sometimes on the sly?-I don't know that they do.

12,912. You take them all for supper piltocks, if any are brought to you?-I suppose so.

12,913. Do you buy hosiery upon the system that is usual in the country?-No; we buy for cash.

12,914. Are you the only merchants in Shetland who do so?-I don't know; but it is very little hosiery we deal in. We find it very easy to buy, but very difficult to sell. We are not rightly in the market. We wish to carry on the hosiery trade on the same principle as the rest of our business, buying everything at a cash price, and giving cash for it if it is asked.

12,915. Do you find any unwillingness on the part of the knitters to take lower prices for their hosiery if they are to be paid for it in cash?-No, they are ready to sell for lower prices if they can get cash; and so they may, because sometimes girls come into our shop with cottons or flowers or other goods which they have brought from Lerwick, and ask us to exchange them.

12,916. Are you often asked to take flowers in that way?-Not often, because we refuse to do it, unless they are goods which have been bought from ourselves. In that case we exchange them; but if they are bought from other parties we won't take them. We find that the goods which are offered to us as having been received for hosiery are very much higher priced than what we would sell the goods at ourselves.

12,917. Have you been offered goods in that way lately?-Not lately, because we have refused to take them. The girls have told us that there is no use asking for cash in Lerwick, because they won't get it, and they don't ask us to take the goods, because they know we won't take them.

12,918. Do you remember any case in which you were offered goods that had been obtained for hosiery at a lower price than they were nominally sold at to them?-I have been offered goods at a lower price, certainly, but I could not mention any particular case.

12,919. Has that happened more than once?-It has happened very often.

12,920. About what amount of business are you doing in hosiery on that system?-Very little at present.

12,921. Is that because you don't get a sale for it?-Yes. As I said, we have not got into the market rightly.

12,922. Do you find it difficult to get the hosiery sold at a profit when you buy it on that system?-Yes.

12,923. Have you been obliged to sell it at something like the price which you paid for it?-Yes, we don't look for a profit upon hosiery.

12,924. Then why do you deal in it if you don't look for a profit?-Because it gives the people a chance of getting cash for it, and then we have a chance of getting the cash again.

12,925. I suppose that generally you do get the cash again?- Generally we do; but that is quite optional with the people themselves.

12,926. Do you pay for hosiery in goods at all?-If they ask for goods, of course we give them goods; but if they ask for cash they get it. That is the way in which we do all our business. We put the goods that we buy at cash prices, and we put the goods that we sell at cash prices, and it is a matter of indifference to us whether they ask goods or cash.

12,927. But, in point of fact, the hosiery may be paid for in goods, and no cash may pass if the party so chooses?-That may happen, but we don't do it as rule. As a rule, some other party buys the hosiery who knows better about it than I do, and hands the cash to the party from whom the hosiery is bought, and then they are at liberty to buy from us, or from any other person they like.

12,928. Are the eggs which you buy paid for on the same principle?-They are paid for in goods or cash, as the parties wish.

12,929. But the custom of the country is to pay for them in goods?-That is the custom of the country.

12,930. Do you generally find that the people who bring them are content to take the price, or prefer to take the price of them in goods?-They often take the price in goods, because they want them, but at the same time that is quite optional with themselves.

12,931. Are there not two prices for these things, whether they are paid in goods or cash?-Some parties have two prices, but we have not. We have only one price. We often prefer to pay the people in cash when they really want goods, because it saves a great deal of trouble in settling with them, and then they buy goods again.

12,932. Do you find that your cash transactions for goods are generally greater at one season of the year than at another?-Yes, very much greater. Our busy season for cash commences when the landlords and fishcurers commence to pay the men for their season's fishing, and we continue to drive a large trade of that description until April.

12,933. Do you then find the men beginning to ask for credit more frequently?-Yes.

12,934. Do you think it would be better for the trade generally, as well as for the men, if they were paid more frequently, and the settlements were not so distant?-It would certainly be better for us if they were paid more frequently, because then we would be paid more frequently also.

12,935. Do you think it would be better for the men too, and that they would make a better bargain with their money, or do you think it is just as well that the money should be kept for them?-I consider that the money is kept up a great deal too long. For instance, if the fish-curers paid for the fish at the end of the fishing season, that is, on 1st September, that might serve the men very well; but as it is with some parties, it is the 1st of April or the end of March before they are paid.

[Page 321]

12,936. Are the men sometimes in difficulties with regard to their supplies, in consequence of that?-No; because if they have anything to get, they can obtain supplies from the stores of the fish-merchants. They can get anything they like from them in goods. Perhaps that is the reason why the settlement is sometimes so long delayed, because it gives the men the chance of running a larger account than they would otherwise do and then they have less cash to get.

12,937. Have you any ground for that statement other than from mere inference?-No. There is one thing I may mention in connection with the fishing, that when the men sell their fish green, the drying of them must be paid for to other parties; but suppose the men dried the fish themselves, there are often windy days, when they cannot be at the fishing, and then they work at the drying of their own fish when they would have been doing nothing if they had been on-shore. In that way they can dry their fish for themselves very much cheaper than the fish-curer can dry them.

12,938. But can they do it as well? Do you think the fish cured by a fisherman himself command as good a market as those cured on a large scale by a curer?-We have had very little experience in that matter, because we don't buy fish in that way.

12,939. Do you cure any fish at all?-Yes; we cure the fish which we buy in the winter time wet.

12,940. How many fish do you sell in the course of a year?-From 10 to 20 tons.

12,941. Do you sell these at what is called the current price?- There is a current price for the ling fishing, according to which the fishermen are paid, and we try to get the most out of the fish that we can.

12,942. Do you generally get above or below what is called the current price in Shetland?-I don't know, because merchants, as a rule, don't care about saying much about what they have got for their fish.

12,943. Are you not consulted by other curers about fixing the current price?-No; we just act for ourselves.

12,944. Do you get a lower price for winter fish than is given for summer fish?-Yes, as a rule, we get less for them.

12,945. Your father is present to-day, but he prefers that you should be examined, as he is not in very good health?-Yes.

*Mr. Henderson afterwards furnished the following statement:-

LIST of OATMEAL invoiced to and sold by Gavin Henderson, Dunrossness, in 1870. Date of Invoice. 1870. a March 11. 24 Bolls Oatmeal, sold by him at 16s. 6d b " 18. 24 " " 17s. 0d c April 15. 8 " " 18s. 0d d May 13. 6 " " 18s. 0d e " 13. 14 " " 18s. 0d f June 3. 20. " " 19s. 0d g 24. 8 " " 19s. 6d h July 26. 16 " " 21s. 0d i Aug. 10. 2 " " 22s. 0d j Sept. 30. 2 " " 19s. 6d k Nov. 4. 2 " " 19s. 0d. l 126 Bolls

a …£19 16 0 b … 20 8 0 c … 7 4 0 d … 5 8 0 e … 12 12 0 f … 19 0 0 g … 7 16 0 h … 16 16 0 i … 2 4 0 j … 1 19 0 k … 1 18 0 l £115 1 0 Average price sold at per Boll, 18s. 3d, as nearly as has been ascertained.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, THOMAS TULLOCH, examined.

12,946. You are a fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden?-Yes.

12,947. Do you employ a number of boats' crews for fishing in summer?-Yes. I think I had about 20 altogether last year.

12,948. Are the men you employ chiefly tenants on the Simbister estate?-No; they are on the Sandlodge part of the Sumburgh estate.

12,949. Are they in any way restricted as to the person to whom they are to sell their fish?-No.

12,950. Do you also buy fish in winter from any men who choose to sell them to you?-Yes.

12,951. Have you bought any from tenants on the Quendale estate?-No, not from Quendale tenants.

12,952. Have you bought any fish in winter from the Sumburgh tenants in Dunrossness?-No.

12,953. Do you settle with your fishermen annually in the winter, in the same way as other merchants do?-Yes; once at year.

12,954. Have you a shop at which they run accounts?-Yes.

12,955. I suppose they generally incur an account in the course of the year, which runs away with part of their earnings?-Yes.

12,956. And you set the one against the other?-Yes.

12,957. Are your boats hired out to the men?-In some cases they are, but in other cases they are their own boats.

12,958. What is the amount of the boat hire they pay?-£2 for the summer.

12,959. Do you hire out lines and hooks also?-Very seldom.

12,960. Do you sometimes make an arrangement by which the men buy a boat and pay for it by instalments?-Yes. It will take about five years to pay it up.

12,961. Is that arrangement made at the beginning of the transaction, or do you just sell the boat, and leave the men to pay it up as they are able?-It is an arrangement which is entered into at the beginning. They have to pay so much every year,-say £1 a year from every man.

12,962. Do you find that the men generally manage to settle up for their boats within the five years?-Yes, about that time.

12,963. How long does at boat last?-Some of them last longer than others, but I should say that on an average they last about fifteen or sixteen years.

12,964. Do you pay the same rate for the fish that are caught by men who own a boat and by those who hire one?-The same.

12,965. Is the price which you pay for your fish generally a higher one than the current price?-Generally it is a little higher.

12,966. What is the reason for that?-I don't know. We like to get the services of the men, if possible.

12,967. I understand the current price last year was 8s. for ling?-I don't think it was so much.

12,968. What did you pay?-I paid 8s. 3d. in 1870, and 8s. 9d. in 1871.

12,969. Do you think the current price was less than 8s.?-I think so, but I am not quite certain.

12,970. Are you obliged to give a higher price in consequence of competition among fish-curers in your neighbourhood?-No.

12,971. Then why do you do it?-We just want to satisfy the men.

12,972. Do the men in your district require a higher price than their neighbours in order to be satisfied?-Yes; they want a higher price, and it has been paid for some years back.

12,973. Can you account for that in any way?-No. I once got into the way of giving a little more than the currency, and the men have always looked for it since.

12,974. Were not the men in your district, until lately, bound to fish for a tacksman, Robert Mouat?-Not in our district. The men who fished for him lived at some distance from me.

12,975. Have you settled this year?-Yes.

12,976. What would be about the average amount of cash which each man had to receive at settlement?-I should say about £4.

12,977. Would the amount of his earning from the fishing be £12 or £15 on an average?-Not so much. It might be about £8 or £9.

12,978. Has the fishing in your neighbourhood been less successful this year than in other parts of Shetland?-It has been less successful for some time back, but last year it has done very well; I should suppose about an average.

12,979. Some of your men, I suppose, would have nothing to take at settlement?-Yes, some had nothing.

12,980. They had exhausted the amount of their earnings by advances in shop goods?-Yes, and in money advances too. The advances were not all in shop goods.

12,981. Do they often ask for advances before the end of the season?-Often.

12,982. Do you think it would be an advantage if they were paid more frequently for their fish?-I don't think so. I think they would not get such high prices.

12,983. Do you mean that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, the merchant would be cautious about fixing a high price?-Yes.

12,984. But if the prices varied from time to time, according to the state of the market, would the men not be better to have the money in their own hands, and then they would have a chance of a variable price?-In that case they would; but some people don't know how [Page 322] to take care of their money when they get it. They don't know how to lay it out.

12,985. If they had money in their own hands, would they not learn to take care of it?-I don't know. I think it would be rather a difficult matter to learn some of them.

12,986. What other fish-curers are there in your neighbourhood?- Mr. Smith. There is no other merchant in the immediate neighbourhood. Mr. Harrison has also some curing done there.

12,987. Has he a station there?-Yes; it is about mile from my place.

12,988. How far is Mr. Smith from you?-He is next door.

12,989. Is there not a good deal of competition between you three?-Not much.

12,990. Are you not all anxious to get a larger number of boats to fish for you?-Of course.

12,991. Has not that some effect upon the price which you offer for the fishing?-Perhaps it has a little.

12,992. Do you think if you were the only curer there, you would be able to get your men to give you their fish for 8s.?-Perhaps I might, if they could get no other body to take them, and who would give them more.

12,993. Have you always given the same price as Mr. Smith, or is there sometimes a difference between you?-There never is any difference.

12,994. How long have you been in business there?-For fifteen years.

12,995. How long has he been there?-I think about sixteen or seventeen years.

12,996. Do his men sometimes shift from him to you, or the other way?-Yes, sometimes.

12,997. Is there any particular reason for that?-I cannot say; I suppose it is just their fancy.

12,998. Is a man more likely to shift when he is in your debt, or when he is out of it?-When he is out of it.

12,999. When he is in your debt, does he like to continue to fish for you until his debt is paid off?-Sometimes he does.

13,000. Have you any arrangement with Mr. Smith by which, when a man changes from one place to the other, the new employer takes in hand the debt which the man is due to his former employer; or becomes responsible for it?-There is no arrangement of that kind between us.

13,001. Have you sometimes done that?-I believe I have done it.

13,002. Have you undertaken a debt due to Mr. Smith?-Yes, when it was not very much.

13,003. And you have got it from the man at the end of the season, or as soon as he was able to pay it, and handed it over to Mr. Smith?-Yes; he either got it, or it was set down in his book.

13,004. How often may that have happened?-Not very often.

13,005. Has it been done lately?-Yes.

13,006. I suppose it is not an unusual thing in the fishing trade for that to be done?-It is not unusual. Of course, the curer that the man leaves expects him to pay his debt when he does leave.

13,007. Are you responsible to any landlords for the rents of their tenants?-No.

13,008. Do you, in point of fact, sometimes pay the fishermen's rents for them?-Yes, to Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.

13,009. That is to say, the fishermen, instead of getting the money from you, have the amount of their rent entered in their accounts, and you pay the whole in a cheque to Mr. Bruce?-Yes; but in some cases I give the money to the men.

13,010. How do you pay it to the landlord when it is paid by you to him?-I just give Mr. Bruce a cheque for the whole when it is collected together.

13,011. How many men's rents may you have paid in that way last year?-I think about six. I gave money to the others, and they handed it to Mr. Bruce themselves.

13,012. Is there any arrangement with the landlord that you should do that?-None.

13,013. Does he sometimes apply to you for the rents of particular men?-No.

13,014. Do you sometimes buy cattle?-No.

13,015. Do you buy eggs?-Yes.

13,016. Do you pay for them in goods?-Yes.

13,017. Have you two prices for them, as they are paid in goods or in cash?-No. If the people did want cash I would not like to give them so much in cash as in goods, because it is cash that I look for in return.

13,018. But I suppose you are never asked for cash payment for eggs?-Very seldom.

13,019. What is the price of meal at your shop just now?-I think Scotch meal is about 5s. a quarter, or 20s. a boll.

13,020. What was it in the summer of 1870?-I don't remember.

13,021. What was it last summer?-I think it was about 5s. or 6s. up or down, according to the market.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JAMES SMITH, examined.

13,022. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Hill Cottage, Sandwick?-I am.

13,023. Your shop is near that of Mr. Tulloch?-Yes, next door.

13,024. You have heard his evidence?-Yes.

13,025. Do you conduct your business in the same way?-The very same.

13,026. How many boats do you employ?-I had about twenty last summer.

13,027. What did you pay for you fish then?-8s. 9d., and I understand the current price of the country has been 8s.

13,028. Have you paid 9d. more than the currency?-Yes, on ling.

13,029. Did you pay as much higher a price for cod and tusk?- No. We paid 7s. for cod and tusk, and I understand the current price of the country has been 6s. 6d. We paid 4s. 3d. for saith, and I understand the current price has been 4s.

13,030. Do you generally pay as much above the current price as you have done last year?-No, not as general thing.

13,031. Can you assign any reason for your price this year being so much higher?-No, I cannot assign any particular reason.

13,032. Is it not in order that you may get as many fishermen as you require?-The great reason is to try to please the fishermen as far as possible; and in our quarter they are very bad to please.

13,033. Why do you want to please them?-To get them to fish for us. We are anxious to have as many fishermen as possible. There is one thing which enables Mr. Tulloch and I to pay somewhat higher prices than the currency; which is, that our curing places are very near to ourselves, and we can always see the curing carried on, and can cure cheaper.

13,034. Do any of the fishermen in your district cure for themselves?-Yes.

13,035. Do you buy from them?-Sometimes. They sell to us if they choose.

13,036. Do you think the fish which they cure are as good as yours?-Not unless they have a factor. When they cure them by their own hands they are never so good.

13,037. What do you mean by them having a factor?-A man set over the fish to look after the curing of them, the same as I have.

13,038. Do the fishermen who cure for themselves have a factor?-Yes; the men at our place have a man to whom they pay so much per ton per every ton of dried fish which are produced.

13,039. In that case, where the fishermen agree to employ a factor, do you think the curing is as well done as it is by you?-It is, when they get an experienced man for the purpose.

[Page 323]

13,040. In that case do the men club together in order to buy implements, vats, and other things for curing?-Yes.

13,041. It is it sort of co-operative system?-Yes.

13,042. Do you do anything in hosiery?-No.

13,043. Do you buy eggs, and pay for them in goods?-Yes.

13,044. Are the prices of the goods in your shop the same as in Mr. Tulloch's?-They are generally the same.

13,045. What is the price of meal at present?-Scotch oatmeal is 20s. a boll, or 5s. a quarter; Shetland meal is only 3s. or 3s. 6d.

13,046. Is the Shetland oatmeal of much inferior quality?-As a general thing, it is much inferior. There is not much of it sold. The people generally use their own meal, and it is much to be regretted that they require a great deal more than what they can grow.

13,047. Do you think you could manage to pay your people, without much inconvenience, as the fish are landed?-I think I might manage that, but I don't think it would be for the public good. In the first place, the fishermen would not be able to get the fishing articles and the quantity of meal they require before the fishing commenced, because they would not have money to pay for them. Another reason is, that if they had the money they don't very well know how to manage it, and it would be spent before rent time came. Then, if they had no money, the landlord would have to go and take their corn or their cattle and roup them in order to get his rent, and the people would be losers.

13,048. Do you think one advantage of the present system is, that it carries the men through a bad year?-Yes. Last year we had a very good fishing, but the majority of them had their rents to get. For as few fishermen as I have, I had to advance them in order to help them to pay their rents.

13,049. Do you sometimes pay their rents for them?-I do so, as a general thing. It is expected that the fish-merchant will not see them at a loss; but, of course, if a ready-money system was introduced, they could not look to the fish-merchant for any help.

13,050. Why should they not look to him then?-If I only had the men engaged from voyage to voyage, or from week to week, and did not have the advantage of knowing that they were to fish for me next year, it could not be expected that I would advance them £140 to help them in paying their rents for this year.

13,051. But perhaps they would not need it if they were in the habit of getting their money?-In my opinion, they would need it more than they do now.

13,052. Have not other people than fishermen sometimes to pay rents?-Yes.

13,053. And they manage to have it in hand when the rent day comes?-Yes; but these people, as a general rule, have bigger farms, and cattle and ponies that they sell, and that helps them on with their rents.

13,054. But there are rents to be paid by people who have small farms, or no farms at all; and if they manage to gather up for their rent day, might not the fishermen do so as well?-They might do so; but in our quarter-and I can only speak for it-the great majority of the people have enough to do when there is a good season, and when there is a bad one they are far short.

13,055. Then I suppose the reason which you are now assigning for keeping up the present system is rounded upon your opinion, that the people of Shetland are less careful and less sensible than people of the same class in other parts of Scotland?-I don't believe they are less sensible than the fishermen or men of the same class elsewhere. I believe there are as competent men in Shetland, as a general rule, as in any other part of Scotland; but the fishing is a very fluctuating piece of business, and I think that very often they could not manage to save up money for their rent if there was a cash system. Of course there are differences among them. There are some men in our quarter who are laying past money, while there are others who are overhead in debt, in spite of all that can be done for them.

13,056. I understand you have been frequently at Fair Isle?-I think it is about six or seven years since I was there last, but I was very often there before. I had a small vessel of my own, and I went to the Isle to barter goods with the people. I bartered them for cash, not for fish.

13,057. Did you go there every year for some time?-I went three or four times in some years, and I continued going for seven or eight years.

13,058. Did you go as a private speculation of your own?-Yes.

13,059. What kind of goods did you take?-Tea, sugar, tobacco and cottons.

13,060. Was there any particular reason for giving up that trade?- No; I was getting tired of it.

13,061. Did you find it a hazardous sort of thing?-It was very much so: I ran many a risk of losing my life. It was an open vessel, without a deck, that I went in, and in the winter time the coast there is very dangerous.

13,062. Was the market open at that time at Fair Isle?-Generally in the winter time it was.

13,063. Was it not open in the summer time also?-Not so much, because the man who had it in tack generally supplied the fishermen at that time with their stores and meal. I made one or two trips there with meal, because the people sent for me to bring it, as their master could not get their meal forwarded so quickly from Orkney as they required it.

13,064. Who was the tacksman then?-John Hughson from Orkney.

13,065. Have you been there since he ceased to be tacksman?- Never.

13,066. Was your trade with the Fair Isle people objected to by him?-He never objected to me.

13,067. Did he object to any one else?-Not to my knowledge.

13,068. Then you could trade with the people as much as you pleased?-Yes; there was no restriction whatever. I very often spoke with Mr. Hughson himself.

13,069. Did you stop at the time when Hughson ceased to be tacksman?-I was almost giving up the trade before he ceased to be tacksman. His time was not quite run out the last time I was there.

13,070. Who succeeded Mr. Hughson as tacksman?-Mr. John Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh.

13,071. You have not been there since he became tacksman?- Never as a trader. I was there once when a ship was wrecked on the Seil. I have made a mistake there: I have been once at the island trading since Mr. Bruce bought it, and I had full liberty from him to go.

13,072. Did you get express permission from him?-Yes.

13,073. When was that?-I don't remember; it may have been four or five years ago.

13,074. Why did you ask permission?-He wished me to go in with goods to the people, and I told him I did not like to go with freight there unless he would allow me to trade for myself; and then he gave me full liberty.

13,075. Was Mr. Bruce not sending a vessel of his own at that time?-He could not get a vessel to go. It is such a nasty coast for inexperienced men, that it is difficult to get men to venture there.

13,076. You agreed to go only on condition that you had the trade in your own hands?-Yes; and I had his freight in the meantime.

13,077. Did you understand at that time that you were not at liberty to trade with the Fair Isle people without Mr. Bruce's permission?-I did not understand anything about it. He only asked me to go with freight, and I asked him if I would be at liberty to trade with the people myself, and he said I would.

13,078. Did he not say that it was only for this special occasion that you were to have liberty?-He did not.

[Page 324]

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, 1872 JOHN HALCROW, examined.

13,079. You are a fisherman at Levenwick?-I am.

13,080. On whose property is your ground?-On that of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.

13,081. Was that ground formerly under tack to Robert Mouat?- Yes. His tack expired about a year ago; but before that, he had become bankrupt.

13,082. Were you bound to fish for him?-Yes.

13,083. Were you also obliged to deal at his shop?-No. I had a little money of my own, and I went to any merchant that I thought I could get the best bargain from.

13,084. Did you go to Mouat for a good bargain?-No.

13,085. Why?-Because he never had good bargains. The quality of his articles was not good, and the price was dearer than that of any merchant in the neighbourhood.

13,086. Were many men in the habit of dealing with him?-Mr. Bruce's tenantry both in Channerwick and Levenwick were bound to fish for him.

13,087. But did they deal with him for shop goods and provisions?-Yes, almost all of them dealt with him.

13,088. Why?-Because they were bound to do it.

13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish.

13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?- No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce, and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money.

13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes, for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had any money to get from him.

13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he received all their fish.

13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him.

13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if they would take it.

13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much.

13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good.

13,097. Then they would have money to get, at the end of the year if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes.

13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He said he did not have it to give them.

13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases they got it.

13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes.

13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they would not take his goods.

13,102. Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes.

13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself.

13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to give me.

13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of 1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again to Mr William Irvine.

13,106. Why did you give Mouat your rent for 1871 nearly two years before it was due?-Because I thought he was to have the tack for two years more.

13,107. But it was your own fault, was it not that you had to pay it twice?-I don't know about that.

13,108. Could you not have got the money from Mouat?-No. I would have had to apply to the civil law to get it.

13,109. You could have got the value of it in goods from him?- Yes. I could have got it in goods; but they were of an inferior quality, and I did not want to take them. [The witness produced a receipt for the rent of 1871 from Mr. William Irvine, and also receipt from Mouat in the following terms: '£5 MOUL, 13<th Jn>. 1871. ' This is to certify that I have from Thomas Halcrow the rent of 1871 in my hands. ROBT. MO.']

13,110. Is that Mouat's signature?-Yes; it is what I got from him.

13,111. Did you see him write it?-I did.

13,112. Do you know any other men who paid rent to Mouat in the same way?-I don't know of any others who paid him in that particular way, but I know some men who had money in his hands.

13,113. Was John Mouat one of them?-Yes. He had money in Robert Mouat's hands by the fishing.

13,114. Was he not able to get his money at the settlement of 1870?-No. I know that he could not get it.

13,115. Do you know anything about that except that he could not get it?-No.

13,116. You have another document in your hands: what is it?-It is a copy of our account from Mr. Smith for the fishing.

13,117. Do you get a copy of your accounts from Mr. Smith at every settlement?-Yes. I have only settled with him one year.

13,118. This is an account for two men; and it shows the prices you got in 1871,-ling 8s. 9d., cod 7s., tusk 7s., and saith 4s. 3d.?-Yes.

13,119. Did you get all that in cash?-Yes, except what I had received in cash before. I had received a little cash in the course of the summer. I had got no advances from him in goods, because his shop was so far from where I lived.

13,120. Why are the two men's accounts in the same slip of paper?-Because there are five of us who go in one boat; and three men agreed to fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun. and two for Mr. James Smith.

13,121. Whose boat was it?-James Gilbertson was the skipper; and the boat belonged to the men.

13,122. Is it a usual arrangement, that part of the crew fish to one merchant and part to another?-No.

13,123. How did it happen in this case?-Because we wanted our liberty. We did not want to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson.

13,124. Would you not have been at liberty if you had fished for Mr. Robertson?-Our reason for not fishing for him was because Robert Mouat called all his tenants to the Moul, and ordered them to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson for him two rising years.

13,125. Was Mr. John Robertson Mouat's trustee in his sequestration?-Yes.

13,126. Some of you declined to fish for him, and others engaged to fish?-Yes.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GILBERT IRVINE, examined.

13,127. Are you shopkeeper at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce, jun.?-I am.

13,128. Do you also act as factor on the estate?-I don't know that I could be called a factor exactly. I just do things about the estate as Mr. Bruce wishes me.

13,129. But you are sometimes employed as, a factor or overseer going about the estate?-Yes, at times.

13,130. Are you aware that the tenants on the Sumburgh estate in Dunrossness parish are under tack to Mr. John Bruce, jun., and are bound to deliver their fish to him?-It is understood that they are to do so, but some of them don't do it. There are some of them who have not fished for Mr. Bruce, and are not are very doing so at the present time; but these are very few. The general understanding is, that they are to deliver their fish to him.

13,131. How long have you been at Grutness?-About twenty-three or twenty-four years.

13,132. I believe it was about 1860 that Mr Bruce took the tack?- Yes.

13,133. How were you employed at Grutness before [Page 325] then?-I was there for Messrs. Hay & Co. They had the shop there formerly, and some of the men belonging to that estate were employed by them as fishermen.

13,134. Do you remember intimation being made to the tenants about 1860 that they were expected to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes. I think there was some person sent round with a letter to that effect, but I did not see the letter.

13,135. However, you know that such an intimation was made?-I understood so.

13,136 Do you remember, a good many years ago, of one James Brown at Toab selling some fish to Robert Leslie?-I don't remember about that at present.

13,137. Do you remember of James Brown's farm being advertised to be let at the shop, a ticket being put up there?-I don't remember about that.

13,138. May it have happened, although you do not remember?- It is possible it may have happened; but I don't remember anything about it at the present moment.

13,139. Can you say that such a thing did not happen twelve years ago?-I think James Brown had not got a farm twelve years ago.

13,140. Perhaps it was his father?-I never knew his father. I think his father was dead before James Brown came to the parish.

13,141. Do you remember any case of a farm being advertised because the tenant had sold his fish, or attempted to sell them, to another merchant?-I do not remember any case of a farm being advertised for man selling fish. The tenants have been reproved for doing so; but I cannot remember of any farm being advertised for that.

13,142. Have you spoken to them about doing such things?-Very likely I have.

13,143. Do you know one Thomas Aitken?-Yes.

13,144 Do you know whether he had to sign a paper agreeing to fish for Mr. Bruce so long as he lived on the ground?-I did not see the paper.

13,145. It was not through you that that was done?-No.

13,146. Was there any special arrangement with him about fishing?-I don't remember anything about it. If there was such an arrangement, it would be with Mr. Bruce.

13,147. You say you have sometimes reproved the tenants for selling their fish to others?-Yes. There have been some seasons when, from the end of October until May, they delivered none at all, or not more than perhaps one cwt. or so. I believe most of them have not delivered more than that during the whole time.

13,148. But that was their winter fishing?-Yes.

13,149. Have you said to them that they ought to deliver some of their winter fish to you?-I told them, even last year, that if the proprietor was aware that they were selling all their fish to other merchants, he would be offended at them, or something to that effect.

13,150. Had that any effect?-Not much.

13,151. They did not bring their winter fish to you?-No.

13,152. Would it be as convenient for them to bring their winter fish to you as to another?-Mr. Bruce had a station at the beach head, and a factor, who was paid all the season round, for taking fish, and salt and everything ready for them, but they would not bring them to him.

13,153. Where did they go with them?-I don't know, I suppose to the merchants round about.

13,154. Did they go to Messrs. Hay & Co., or to Quendale?-I could not say where they went.

13,155. Why did they not choose to come to you?-I don't know. It is a general practice in Shetland, that tenants fishing for landlords try to do as much trade with other merchants as they can.

13,156. What has been their reason for that practice?-I think the fact that they fish for their landlords has created a kind of feeling that they are rather in bondage.

13,157. And they like to have their liberty in winter?-I think their feeling is, that they don't like the proprietor to know all their transactions. That has been a practice in Shetland for a long time, both in the north and the south.

13,158. Have you had occasion to reprove the tenants for carrying off their fish or smuggling them to other merchants in summer?-I think I have done so once or twice. I remember on one occasion seeing a boat coming from the sea to land their fish. I counted the fish they had in the boat; I don't recollect the number, but they were not all brought to the store. I made inquiry about that, and found that some of the fish had been taken to other merchants; but I never told Mr. Bruce about it.

13,159. Your settlements at Grutness are made every year?-Yes, once a year.

13,160. What is the usual period at which the settlements are completed?-In some years Mr. Bruce has begun towards the end of January; but last year, on account of him being out of the way, and me not having the accounts ready, the settlement went on as late as April.

13,161. Are the balances of these settlements always paid in cash?-Yes; they are readily paid. Mr. Bruce always did that.

13,162. Do you sometimes make advances in money to the men in the course of the summer?-I do not make these advances. Mr. Bruce sometimes does so and when at settlement some of them are in debt, he gives them money in advance. It very seldom happens that a man, even when he is in debt at settlement, will not ask him for some shillings, or for £2 or £3, and he always gives it to them, although they have no money to get, but have been in his debt for some time.

13,163. Do the men run accounts at your shop at Grutness as they do with other merchants, for the purpose of supplying their families and of getting supplies for the fishing?-Yes; what they get is chiefly meal and hooks, and things of that kind. We do not do much in dry goods.

13,164. Except outfits for the fishermen?-Yes, except what we cannot avoid giving them.

13,165. At what time of the year are your transactions with the fishermen largest?-In summer. While the fishing is going on, our place is very busy.

13,166. Is that the season when the meal of the fishermen themselves is exhausted?-Yes. I have seen in bad years, when there was a poor crop in Shetland, that they had to get meal supplied to them so early as February; but for 2 or 3 years back the crops have been better, and most of the men have carried on till April or May without requiring any advances of that kind.

13,167. Then your principal sales of meal are in the summer time?-Yes. We seldom do anything in it after the crop has been got in, except perhaps in the case of a person who has had a very poor crop, or no crop at all, and then we may give him some.

13,168. The quantity of meal which each man gets is entered in the ledger account in your book at the time that he gets it?-Yes; we just keep one ledger account. Sometimes the meal is marked on slips of paper or in a little book when I am out of the way, but I try to enter all these things in the ledger daily.

13,169. But they are all entered in the ledger account, although there may be some little delay in entering them?-Yes; every person has all his dealings entered in one account.

13,170. I understand, from what I saw in the books last night, and from what you mentioned to me, that you don't fix the price of the meal when it is given out?-No. I don't know yet the current price of bear meal for this year.

13,171. At first you only enter the quantity that is given out?- Yes.

13,172. And the price of the meal is fixed at settlement?-Yes, or some time before it, in order that I may get the account extended and added up.

13,173. In what way is the price of the meal fixed for the year?-It is generally taken on an average. In 1870, for instance, which is the last year for which there has been a settlement, meal was pretty low in [Page 326] the spring, varying from 18s. to 19s. per boll, and it rose during the season until it was somewhere about £1, if not above it. These changes frequently take place in the markets; and in fixing the price for a particular year, we generally make an average of the prices from first to last. If we were not to do that, then it might chance that the poorest people might get the whole of their meal at the dearest price, or when the price of meal was highest; but the way in which we take it makes it more equal over all.

13,174. Do you take the average according to the whole quantity of meal which you have sold?-Yes. We add up the total amount of meal sold, and the prices per boll which the meal has cost. I don't do that, but I believe that is the way in which it is done. It is generally done by Mr. Bruce himself, but I have a general understanding about it. For instance, if 20 bolls cost a certain figure, and 30 bolls cost another figure, if we add the amounts together, and take the average of the whole, we know what to sell it for. That is the way in which I would do it, and I believe it is the way in which it is done.

13,175. You first strike the average of the wholesale price, and then you allow a certain amount of profit upon that?-Yes. We include the expense of bringing it here, and then we make an average price accordingly.

13,176. Do some of the fishermen who deal at your shop have pass-books?-Very few; but I think a great many of them keep accounts themselves. I never saw many men settling who did not know what quantity of meal they had had.

13,177. Have you sometimes objected to the trouble of keeping pass-books for the men?-I don't recollect doing that, but I might have said that it was vexatious. I think there were two or three cases in which I was anxious that the people should have pass-books, and I began them with them. They came with them for a certain time, but then they would come without the book, and that confused me altogether. However, I never was very much asked to keep pass-books for them, and the fact is that it would have been almost out of my power to have attended to them. I am frequently out of the shop, and there are days when the men are coming ashore in large numbers, on which we could scarcely have time to mark down the meal.

13,178. Have you a fixed day in the week for giving out meal?- We have had a fixed day for some years back. Formerly we had no particular day, but we could not get them to understand the quantity of meal that was to be disposed of; and as there are some people to whom we only allow a certain quantity of meal per week, we have found it better to fix a particular day on which they are to come for it. People who have credit, or who have money in Mr. Bruce's hands, can come any day and get what they please, so that there are scarcely any days in the week when some is not given out; but the bulk is given out on a particular day, generally on a Friday.

13,179. You said just now that certain people had to be restricted to a given quantity of meal: are these people who are in debt?- Yes, and people who have been in debt. If it had not been for that restriction, there are some people on the estate who were in debt not long ago, and who would still have been in debt.

13,180. I thought it was because they were in debt that you restricted them?-No; we restricted some because they might have got into debt. We just gave them an allowance sufficient to support them through the week; but if we had given them more, or given them what they wanted, they would have taken double the quantity. These, however, are only a few individuals; in general the people are much more careful.

13,181. When you put parties on an allowance in that way, are they generally people who have had a balance against them at settlement the year before?-Generally they are. Some of them may have been in debt £8 or £10, and some as high as £20, and it is these people we put on an allowance in order to try to keep them going.

13,182. Do people who have no balance against them, and who can get an unlimited supply of meal, come to you on Fridays along with the rest?-Sometimes, and sometimes not; they just come as they choose.

13,183. Do they frequently not come to you at all for meal?- There are few of them who don't come for meal; but the greater part of the men at Dunrossness are generally in good circumstances, and have the command of money, and they generally buy their meal in Lerwick, or where they can get it cheapest.

13,184. In looking at your books last night, of course I did not find the prices for meal entered for the year 1871?-No.

13,185. But I saw that a lispund of bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 6d.?-I think the lispunds were 4s. 4d., and the quarter bolls 4s. 6d.

13,186. I noticed also that you sometimes charged what you call a lispund at a different price?-Yes; when we break a boll and sell it in quarters, we generally call it a lispund. Sometimes two or three men may get a boll and divide it among themselves, and it is generally charged to them as lispunds. That accounts for the lispund sometimes being charged at one price and sometimes at another.

13,187. When you do actually weigh out a quarter boll, you charge it at 4s. 6d.?-We seldom weigh that out. They take the boll and divide it among themselves; we seldom weigh it.

13,188. When the prices are not entered until the end of the season, how do you know whether to charge for a quarter boll or for a lispund, when you have put it in your book in the first instance as a lispund in both cases?-I had slips of paper or a little pass-book, and when we gave the meal out we had a line for the boll weight and a line for the lispund.

13,189. What is done with the lines?-We have some of them yet.

13,190. Do you file them?-No. We rule the small pass-book, and have a place in which we enter the lines, so many for lispunds, so many for bolls, and so many for quarter bolls, or whatever it may be.

13,191. Do you call that book the weighing-book?-Yes. It is generally only part of the meal that is entered there.

13,192. When you are putting in the prices at the end of the season do you go over all the entries in that book, and all the entries in the ledger account as well?-There is a great deal of the meal that we never keep any slips for, but just enter it direct into the ledger and we know which of these people are getting lispunds, and which are getting quarter bolls.