NOTES 1. (continued 27)

10,558. Is there anything which you wish to explain further, or to add to their evidence?-Perhaps I may be allowed to read a letter which I wrote some time ago, and which shows my views and the company's views with regard to the state of matters. It is a letter which was written by me to the other members of the company, and it is dated 29th January 1870. It is as follows:

'Dear Sirs,-I have often spoken to you about adopting a cash system in all our dealings with the people but none of you seemed to think it would do. I of course would not press it in the meantime, though I am always more convinced that it would be a much better system than the present, and we should be gainers by it to a very great extent, if wrought as it should be; and, depend upon it, it will have to come in, and that not long to the time, whether we will or not; so I would advise you to consider over it more than you have done. It will take no more capital, but even less than the present system does.

'If after further consideration, you still think it would not do, could it not then be possible that the price of fish could be fixed at the commencement of the fishing? Be assured that we will be forced into this, whether we will or not; and certainly it would be the proper way. The price of everything else that we deal in is generally fixed or agreed upon when the transaction is made, and why not do so with fish? We do it with winter fish, and what is to hinder us to do it with the summer ones? In no other part of the world that we know of is there such a system as we have. Look at the herring-curers south: I believe herrings would never keep at such a high price were it not that the price is fixed at the first. If we were to do the same with our fish, I have not the least hesitation in saying that we should have them all away and into cash as fast as they could be dried, because we should never keep them on hand when we could get a safe price for them; and the fact that we had got a certain price before we could be safe, would prompt us the more to seek to obtain it, and buyers would come to terms more quickly; indeed, the moment we agreed with the fishermen, we could at same time almost enter into a contract with a buyer or buyers for all our catch. It is often seen what a disagreeable thing it is to keep a large parcel of fish hanging on in the face of a fluctuating market, the chance being oftener against us than in our favour; and fish, in particular, being such a perishing article, the risk is very often great. Many other things could be brought in in support of our fixing the price of green fish when the fishing begins. If you do not think we could begin to it alone, it could only be a trial to correspond with all the other curers, and see if they would not join with Hay & Co., Adie, Anderson, Pole & Hoseason, and any other you know of, and make the proposal. Have a meeting of all the curers, say at Voe, or wherever it might be thought best, and try the thing. I am fully persuaded that circumstances, and that not long to the time, will compel us to it, if not to the cash system.

'Notice around you even and see how things are tending, and see how opposition is creeping in-of course against us. The old system we keep is the cause of it, to a good extent at least. Mr. Sandison should correspond with some of the other curers; or could you not ask Mr. Adie to come to Unst? I think we often spoke of doing that before. I suppose he is friendly enough to us. I am almost sure he would join us in the movement, and Pole & Hoseason would do it, also Mr. Henderson. I trust you will give this matter your consideration, if it should come no further. Shetland is behind it long long way, and a new kind of political economy is needed for it; and why should we not make the trial?- When we formed into a company, everybody was made to understand that there would be improvements in many things- which I hope there is-but we should go forward, and not stand still.'

The whole of us, as a company, were very anxious to adopt this system, but there were a great many difficulties that came in our way which we could scarcely control.

10,559. Were these difficulties raised on the part of the men?- Not exactly. The men were anxious for the change, but they were misled and influenced, and we could not get a fair start. With regard to the old system of what may be called truck, I have looked into my books about forty years ago, and I see that it was the habit of all the fishermen then to prefer putting their produce into the hands of the dealers, and leaving it there till the end of the year for settlement. That has been altered by various things. I object to the great number of small dealers, because I don't think they develop the resources of the island to such a degree as they might; but if a large firm or firms, with the tenants in their own hands, and who are possessed of capital were to set about doing that, the resources of the island could be far more easily developed.

10,560. Would a large firm of that kind, engaged in fish-curing, not make a fair profit, and carry on business in a satisfactory way, if it left the supply of shop goods, draperies, and provisions to other dealers? Is it impossible in Shetland to separate between the fish merchant's business and that of the drapery or provision dealer?-I think it is perfectly possible; and I think it would be the proper plan, that the fish-curing and dealing [Page 257] should be perfectly distinct; but then there would require to be special arrangements made for that purpose, in order to get it into working order for the benefit of all classes.

10,561. I suppose that at the summer stations, however, it is quite necessary that the fish-curer should keep a supply of provisions for his men?-Yes.

10,562. But when the men are in their own homes, would it not be quite possible for them to get their supplies from the ordinary shops supported by private enterprise throughout the country, without having recourse to the man who was employing them?- Of course it would; and if that system was honestly carried out the men would benefit by it, but if the trade was carried on by small shops, looking only to pounds, shillings, and pence, that would do the people injury.

10,563. In what way?-Because it would increase the number of small shops; and, as I say, these cannot develop the resources of the island as they ought to do. They would only be drawing means from the people which they could not apply in a proper way. For instance, take the herring fishing: Messrs. Hay & Co. are the principal herring-curers, and no small dealer could carry on that business in the way they do. They are carrying it on just now at a very heavy sacrifice, year after year, in the expectation that the herring will come; but if Messrs. Hay & Co. were to give up the business, and it were to fall into the hands of small dealers, there would be nobody to receive herrings when they did come.

10,564. Is not the herring fishing carried on only from Lerwick?- It is sometimes carried on from here, when there are herrings on the coast.

10,565. But could not the fish-merchant make his arrangements so as to derive a sufficient profit from the sale of his fish without depending upon the profit that is derived from the sale of his goods?-It would be perfectly possible to make an arrangement of that kind; but the case of Shetland requires special arrangements in consequence of its peculiar position. If the fish could be sent off fresh to the market whenever the men came on shore with them, and we had no more outlays upon them, then there might be a profit; but, as things are now, we must lay in heavy stocks for the incoming year.

10,566. Heavy stocks of what?-Of fishing materials and salt. Spence & Co. must now order perhaps 150 tons of salt; and if we did not make arrangements with the men, that would become a loss.

10,567. But you could make arrangements with the men as early as you please, although the men were not dealing with your shop?- We expect the preference, because I hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement made with Mr. Walker was with a good intention. I think co-operation in the Shetland Islands is far more beneficial than competition. Competition between two poor merchants does not do any good, but an immense deal of injury; and I think that, before it cash system is entered into, a full and thorough investigation should be made by the proprietors and the principal dealers, in order to see how it can be made to work best for the general good. The change can be made without injury to any one, but it must be done a certain way, and that can only be found out by such a special investigation as I have referred to. Shetland is far behind, and I think the adoption of a cash system would be the means of increasing the number of dealers who would draw away the people's means and be a bar against developing the resources of the country in a proper way. Some of these dealers would be rubbed; the people would be poorer; and no dealer even with capital would be inclined to go into the field in such circumstances. If they did, it would need to be under some sort of protective system; or if a dealer with capital came forward he would have every chance of obtaining a monopoly, and he might do great mischief.

10,568. Is there not a monopoly at present?-No, we don't want it. We only ask the fishermen to give us the preference, and any man who has cash to get can get it at any time he likes.

10,569. I don't doubt that; but is there any competition in the shop trade in Unst just now?-There is no monopoly.

10,570. Is there not a monopoly on Major Cameron's estate at least?-It is not a monopoly. I say that what we aimed at was rather co-operation; and if we got a fair chance there was a prospect of the fishermen, if they had money, participating along with us.

10,571. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I should like the men, if possible, to find boats for themselves. It is not our fault that they don't own them.

10,572. Do you encourage them to buy their boats?-Yes.

10,573. Have you not succeeded in that?-Since we have formed the company, we have had a great deal to contend with, and I have been in ill health, and so many enemies have been created against us, that with bad years we have found it difficult to go on; but I hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement we made was for the good of the tenants.

10,574. But in what way has the opposition excited against you prevented the men from buying their boats?-Any change in Shetland, whether for good or ill, is sure to create opposition.

10,575. Has the opposition you have met with been among the fishermen?-No. If they are taken in hand properly, and made to understand matters, I have always found them quite reasonable, but they have been badly influenced.

10,576. Has that influence been exercised by rival merchants?-It has arisen perhaps from want of knowledge, and from parties not knowing how such business should be carried on. It would be our aim to allow the men to receive cash for what they earn, but there are many difficulties which can only be rectified by proprietors and us and the tenants together.

10,577. Do you mean that the proprietor should place the fishermen altogether into your hands?-If the motive is good, I think that should be the case. At least we should prefer to have the tenants to transact with us.

10,578. But would it not be far better that the tenants should stand on their own legs, and not be so entirely dependent on the large companies?-It would be better; but that should be gone into with great caution.

10,579. Don't you think the fishermen are less independent now, when there is only one large firm in Unst to whom they can deliver their fish, than they were when there were three competing merchants?-They may be in the meantime, but that always tends to harm.

10,580. What tends to harm?-Too much competition, because the country is too poor for it. It would be far better for the proprietors to take the men into their own hands to fish than to allow them to go to number of small dealers.*

*Mr. Spence afterwards wrote the following letter to the Commissioner:- 'Lest it may have been thought that in giving my evidence before you I had approved of a monopoly, I now beg to send a written explanation of what I meant, as I afterwards said to you I would 'There is nothing in a dealing way I so much dislike as a monopoly. What I wished to be understood was, that no number of small dealers, however willing, working as they do, can improve Shetland as it would really need; but that in order to develop the resources of the country thoroughly, it must be done by quite different means. There is no doubt but that a change is needed, but it should be merged into with caution, or it will do harm to some class. Shetland appears to be so far behind, that the people must serve an apprenticeship, as it were, to any change for their good. It occurred to me that some good might be done by all the dealers in Unst amalgamating, and by their united capitals and efforts carrying on business and the fishings on at sort of co-operative system; but it did not seem to be in accordance with a free-trade system, and was never tried, though, if properly conducted, I have no doubt it could have done some good. 'In reference to the cash system, you would see in the letter I read, and left with you, the views I have held. We have hitherto, for various reasons found some difficulty in adopting it fully, but we trust, ere long, to get it fairly introduced. One hindrance to us getting it fairly wrought, is owing to the way we are bound to the proprietors for the fishermen's rents. This also appears to those who do not know the nature of the business, to be a monopoly; because while we are thus bound we are compelled to a certain extent, to restrict such men who, from extravagant habits or other causes, cannot preserve their rents. It cannot be supposed that to such [Page 258] men we can hand over money-perhaps to be made a bad use of; and then, when rent time comes, have nothing to get from them, and often not having got any rent for boats and fishing materials. This is one thing in which there is great room for improvement in Shetland. 'As a member of a firm having the principal business in this land, I would beg to state that our mode of dealing seems to be greatly misunderstood by many; and it would be most desirable that an impartial investigation into the books and transactions of every other dealer in the island should be made, when, I have no doubt, matters would look something different. With regard to the fishermen, they are not bound to fish, and they were never told so. I, for one, have urged upon them to improve their farms, so as to enable them to be independent of fishing, which I consider to be a most dangerous employment in such small boats. We pay them cash whenever they want it and have it to get. We do not monopolize our dealings. Could a proper investigation be made in other shops, I can venture to say that, on the whole, we sell cheaper than any other. Besides the other dealers in the island, the steamer runs twice a week in summer, and once in winter, from Lerwick to here; and if the people wish to avail themselves of it, they can get their supplies as easily from there as here. A public roup, advertised all over Shetland, is held once every year for the sale of cattle and ponies, where there is perfect freedom to buy and sell. There are many things we do for the people which are not generally known. I shall only mention one thing, to show what we have to combat with. 1868 and 1869 the fishings were small, and the crops so blighted, that seed and meal had to be imported, and given out on credit to a great many, or else they would have starved. The effects of these two years tell against both the men and us for some time, but such occur occasionally; and it is dealers, standing as we do, that feel it most. We hold, as you are aware, a lease of a large portion of this island, and we are bound to see certain improvements carried out, which, being new here, raises a hostile spirit against us by those who are not inclined to see our island made better. We try to introduce any other improvements that can be thought of, feeling assured that if we can get them accomplished, the people will be in much better circumstances than they are. While we are pressing these improvements, small dealers draw away the means of the people, preventing both them and us from getting so fast on as we would otherwise do; and while we are using all reasonable means to try to get the indolent not to sell what, of their own farm produce, they really need themselves, as is sometimes done, the report is often got up that we want to monopolize the business of the island, when there is nothing of the kind ever thought of by us.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER NICHOLSON, examined.

10,581. You are a fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick?-I am.

10,582. You hold land under Mr. Edmonstone of Buness?-Yes.

10,583. And you fish for Spence & Co?-I fished for Mr. Spence, but not for Spence & Co. I have not fished any for three years.

10,584. Do you devote yourself entirely to your farm now?-Yes.

10,585. Why did you give up the fishing?-Because I did not like the sea.

10,586. Were you quite content to fish for Spence & Co. if you had continued at the fishing?-I would have been.

10,587. Where do you get your supplies now?-From Spence & Co. and other places, just where I can make the best bargain.

10,588. Do you work at anything besides your own farm?-Yes, I do day's work back and forward.

10,589. Do you get your day's pay at the time?-Yes; if I ask it, I get it.

10,590. But you do not always ask it?-Sometimes I do not; sometimes it will be two or three days, or a week, or a month, before I get it.

10,591. Who do you work for mostly?-For Mr. Spence.

10,592. Do you keep an account at his shop?-Not much. If I want anything I pay the money for it.

10,593. But you have an account sometimes?-No, I never keep one.

10,594. Is there not an account in your name in his books?-Not very much. I never keep a note of that myself.

10,595. But there is something in his books against you?-Yes.

10,596. And sometimes your day's pay is entered in that book too?-No. I get money for my day's wages when I have asked for it, or if I am working for some time it is entered in the book until I get it, but all the money I have to get is given to me when I ask for it.

10,597. Then you just keep an account the same as fisherman does?-Much the same.

10,598. Only what is put down in your case is a day's pay or a month's pay for work, instead of the price of fish?-Yes.

10,599. Have you been going on in that way for three years?-Yes.

10,600. Do you settle every year?-Yes, once a year, in January or February. I have not settled for last year yet.

10,601. Was there a balance against you at last settlement?-Yes, about 10s. or 12s.

10,602. Therefore you had no money to get?-I had money to get. It is now that I have about 10s. or 12s. against me; but if I wanted goods, and paid the money, I always got them.

10,603. Do you get some money now and then?-Yes, I always get it when I ask it.

10,604. But you don't like to ask for much when you have an account running against you?-No. I just get as much as keeps me.

10,605. Where do you sell the stock off your farm?-I sell them to any man who gives me most for them, but it is few or none that I sell on this island. There are parties who come into the island to buy them, and usually sell to them.

10,606. Why don't you get your day's work paid to you at the time?-I would get it if I asked it.

10,607. Why don't you ask it?-Perhaps because I am not needing it at the time.

10,608. Where do you get your supplies from besides Spence & Co.'s?-At Mr. Johnston's.

10,609. Do you pay the same price there?-Much about it.

10,610. Is there any difference?-Not very much.

10,611. Is there any difference at all?-I don't know; I have never seen much difference.

10,612. Is the price of meal the same at the two places?-I always bought meal in bolls, and paid so much per boll. I bought some from a farmer at Haroldswick, not from Spence & Co., and I paid him 21s. per boll for meal off his own farm. I have not bought any from Mr. Spence this year.

10,613. Is there no oatmeal in your account?-No.

10,614. Was there a balance in your favour at the last settlement after you stopped fishing?-Yes; I think I had £12 to get. I think my shop account for goods that year was about £4.

10,615. Who is the farmer from whom you got that meal?-Mr. Hugh Inkster. I gave him money for it when I bought it.

10,616. Where did you get the 21s?-I got it from some ponies that I sold, and from some money that I had saved before I left the fishing.

10,617. Did you sell these ponies to Spence & Co.?-I sold one to William Manson, and another to Charleson, who comes from Yell Sound.

10,618. Do you sometimes buy your goods elsewhere than from Spence & Co. and Johnston?-I sometimes get them from Lerwick.

10,619. Do you get them cheaper there?-Very little. I never send for them unless I am going there myself.

10,620. Did you ever fish for any one else than Spence & Co?- Yes; I fished for the late Mr. Samuel D. Hunter, Lerwick.

10,621. Were you paid by him in the same way every year?-Yes.

10,622. You never were obliged to fish for any particular person?-No.

10,623. And you never were obliged to take your goods from any particular shop?-No.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, DAVID EDMONSTONE, examined.

10,624. What are you?-I am factor on the Buness estate, and a farmer.

10,625. I understand you have had a great deal of experience of business in Shetland?-Yes. I was nine years in business as a fish-merchant, and I have lived in Shetland all my life, with the exception of a year or two.

[Page 259]

10,626. Were you the writer of a letter which was quoted in the evidence given in Edinburgh, Q. 44,511-Yes.

10,627. Do you still retain the same opinions as are stated in that letter?-I do.

10,628. Do you think it is a correct statement at this time, that the people do not receive in money one-fiftieth of their earnings?-In the way I look at it, I think that statement is correct, because I hold that when there is only a settlement once a year, in January or February, and the man gets his balance then, that is not a cash payment in any sense of the word.

10,629. You mean that it is only a cash payment so far as the balance is handed over to him?-Yes; and that he has not got cash for fish or any other produce during the season.

10,630. You don't doubt, I suppose, that a fisherman can get an advance of cash during the season if he wants it?-No, I don't doubt that.

10,631. Do you think that advances or payments of that nature in the course of the fishing season ought to be made compulsory, or to be required by law?-Yes, I have long thought so.

10,632. Do you think that would be practicable in the fishing business?-I think so most decidedly, so far as my experience goes.

10,633. Have you any opinion to give with regard to the system of combining land-holding with fishing in Shetland?-I think they must be combined to a certain extent. I have thought a good deal and I don't think a man can earn a sufficient livelihood by fishing alone, because the weather in the winter time is so stormy that they cannot often get out for many days, and sometimes for weeks.

10,634. Would that difficulty not be removed to some extent if larger boats were introduced, and the men were trained to the use of them?-I think not. From the strong currents which run round the shore, I think larger boats are not adapted to the coast. In fact, I believe a good Shetland boat, well manned, would go through what a much larger one would not go through.

10,635. Do you know that to be the opinion of the best seamen in Shetland?-I believe it is. For instance, the large boats used in the neighbourhood of Lerwick for herrings have often been lost when the common six-oared boats came safely. These large boats are more unwieldy and more difficult to handle than the small ones.

10,636. At what period are the rents on the Buness estate paid?- At Martinmas.

10,637. Is it necessary to fix the payment at that period, from a consideration of the settling time between the merchants and the fishermen?-Yes. It has always been the habit to pay the rents at Martinmas.

10,638. It is universal in Shetland, I understand, to pay the rents only once a year?-Yes; the tenants have their holdings from Martinmas to Martinmas.

10,639. Can you explain why that arrangement has been made? Is it from anything connected with the fishing?-I think so. The men would then have an opportunity of completing their fishing and getting all the sales made which they have to make, and then they are supposed to be in funds. I suppose that is the reason, but I don't know.

10,640. Is it usual for the proprietor to enter into any arrangement with the fish-curer for the payment of his rents?-We do that on the Buness estate, and I should like to explain the reason of it. The tenants have all been told that they are at perfect liberty to fish to whom they like; but after they have engaged to fish to a certain curer, we wish them to bring a guarantee from their curer or curers for the rent of the year on which they have entered, and during which they are to fish. One reason for that-in fact the only reason-is, that the men do not get money payments, and therefore a great number of them will be induced to run a heavy account at the shop, and when we collect the rents at Martinmas we would have nothing to get. If the men were paid in money, daily or weekly or fortnightly, then we would make no such arrangement, but would collect the rents directly from the men.

10,641. Then, in fact, that arrangement is made in order to limit the credit which the fish-merchant gives to his men?-Yes; and to secure that we are to get part of that money.

10,642. But it has the effect of limiting their credit?-Yes.

10,643. Are you aware whether that is a usual arrangement in Shetland?-I don't know. The Buness estate was in tack or lease to tacksmen for twelve or fourteen years before 1868, first to Mr. Hunter of Lerwick, and then to myself. Under that arrangement we paid a certain amount for the estate, and made the best we could of it.

10,644. You took the risk of the tenants paying their rents?-Yes, the entire risk.

10,645. Did Mr. Hunter and you employ most of the men as fishermen?-Yes, most of them.

10,646. Do you think the effect of the present system is to stunt trade, and keep other shops down except those of the fish-curers?-I think so.

10,647. Did you hear the evidence which Mr. Spence gave on that subject?-Yes.

10,648. Do you agree with his opinion that it would be better to have one large monopolist than a number of small shops?-No, I don't agree with that.

10,649. You think that competition would be wholesome?-I think so, if there were cash payments.

10,650. Have you any reasons, within your own experience, for maintaining that opinion with regard to Shetland?-I think, from my own experience, that the people would be very much more independent if they had cash in their hands. They are not entrusted with cash just now, as a general rule. I know they get their balances paid; but they are not entrusted with cash, and therefore they are not independent. They are like schoolboys; they lean upon other people, and I don't think that is a good system. When a bad year comes, they expect that the fish-curer has to advance them meal; and they will tell him that if he won't do it, they won't fish for him again. In that way he must do it; in fact they think he is bound to do it. They have no self-reliance or independence.

10,651. Could they get supplies in any other way if the curer did not advance them meal?-There are very few tenants who have not stock of their own-cattle and horses.

10,652. But these are liable to the landlord for their rent?-Yes; and they are liable to be sold for supplies to themselves.

10,653. Do you think that even in a bad year their stock might carry them through?-I think so, in most cases.

10,654. Is there any restriction on the Buness estate upon the opening of new shops?-None whatever.

10,655. Do you think it is possible for a shopkeeper to prosper in Shetland who is not engaged in the fishcuring business?-I think so.

10,656. Even under the present system?-Yes; because there is a good deal of money among the people, irrespective of the fishing. They have their produce, and they are not compelled to go with it all to the fishcurer. There are several shops in this island, the keepers of which, I believe, are doing very well.

10,657. Do you know anything as to the season at which these shops have the largest sale?-I do not.

10,658. Would it be a fair inference, from what you know of the state of things here, to say that the receipts of these shops are much larger in the spring, when the men have got a little cash at settlement, than they are at other periods of the year?-I daresay they are. I cannot speak of that from my own experience; but I believe that these shops advance a number of the fishermen who are fishing, perhaps, to Spence & Co. or others, and take the chance of getting payment when the men receive their money.

10,659. But that is a chance which comes to nothing, or falls altogether, if the men happen to have run up a large account at Spence & Co.'s shop?-Necessarily so.

10,660. So that these dealers run a considerable risk in giving credit at all?-Yes.

10,661. Do you think a large firm, which is engaged both in the shop business and in the fish-curing business, [Page 260] has a great hold over the fishermen, so as to secure their services for the fishing season?-That depends entirely upon the place and the circumstances. If the firm has control over the men, from having a lease of the lands on which they live, they must necessarily have a great influence over them.

10,662. But may such a control not be obtained merely by them having, a number of the men in debt?-I believe it may.

10,663. Are you aware of such control having been exercised by fish-merchants in Shetland?-I have heard about it, but it is not within my own knowledge. My own experience has been that indebted men and bound men are the most difficult men to deal with, and that a clear independent man is the man easiest to deal with in every way.

10,664. Is there any other general statement which you wish to make with regard to the state of Shetland?-I don't remember any. I would mention with regard to the Buness estate, that we have offered leases to a great number of the tenants, but they don't seem inclined to take them.

10,665. Are you acquainted with the rules which have been laid down on the neighbouring estate of Major Cameron?-Yes.

10,666. Do you know how far the tenants have been adopting them?-I believe they are working into them gradually.

10,667. The lease in that case is rather a short one, is it not?-I think it is too short for an agricultural lease, especially with the obligations they are under.

10,668. Do you mean with regard to peats and scattalds?-No; I mean especially the obligations they are under with regard to improvements.

10,669. There are obligations to make certain improvements, and to uphold and improve the houses?-I believe so.

10,670. Do you think these obligations are a reason why the rules and regulations have not been more generally complied with?-I don't know. Of course it is very difficult to get a people who have been accustomed to a particular system, and who are wedded to their old ideas, to change; but I think the people here are now beginning to see, after two or three years' trial, that it is to be for their own advantage, and that they will go on with it.

10,671. The leases which you offered on the Buness estate were, I suppose, intended to introduce a similar system of improvements?-Yes; but the tenants always seem to think that if they sign a lease for fourteen or nineteen years they are binding themselves. They would wish to be free to go any year they like, but to have the proprietor bound not to turn them off. That, in my experience, is the reason why leases are not popular as a general rule.

10,672. Can you give any information as to the ordinary diet of a Shetland fisherman and his family?-I believe they live very much better than the same class in England or in Scotland, or I should perhaps say more expensively.

10,673. What distinction do you draw between these two things?- They use a great deal of tea and biscuit and loaf, which the same class in Scotland don't use.

10,674. I thought that loaves were generally unattainable in some parts of Shetland?-They are not so in this island.

10,675. Have they not to be brought from Lerwick?-Yes, but they are brought in great quantities.

10,676. Is not oatmeal the staple article of food?-They use it to a great extent; but I don't think they use it in the form in which it ought to be used. I don't think that too much tea and very little bread is good for the working man.

10,677. In what form is the oatmeal mostly used?-I suppose it is used in bread, but I don't know exactly. I don't think, as it general rule, they use porridge, which is the most economical way of using oatmeal.

10,678. Is a large quantity of fish used for the diet of the fishermen?-I believe there is in summer time, and also when it can be got in winter.

10,679. Would you say that that is the principal article of diet along with the oatmeal?-I should say that fish and potatoes were the principal articles of diet.

10,680. Is butcher meat sometimes used by them?-I believe it is very seldom.

10,681. But with fish, potatoes, meal, bread, and biscuits, the population of the island are supplied to a sufficient extent?-Yes.

10,682. And they are more than amply supplied with tea?-I think so.

10,683. Has there been an improvement on the houses within your time?-I think there has. We tried to make the houses, when we were building new ones, better than the old ones were.

10,684. Are new houses upon the estates here generally built by the proprietor?-Always, except when sometimes a man takes a small bit of hill or scattald, and then he will make a small house for himself.

10,685. Is that often done?-Not often.

10,686. Is that the origin of many of the houses now existing?-In some parts of Shetland I think it is, but I don't think it is to a large extent in Unst.

10,687. In Unst the houses are more commonly built by the proprietors?-Yes; because there are not in Unst a great proportion of what are called offsets-places which have been taken in from the bill.

10,688. The island has been longer under cultivation?-I think so.

10,689. Then you cannot speak generally of the character of the house accommodation throughout Shetland?-I cannot.

10,690. Would you think that here it is rather better than in other places?-I think so. Unst houses are generally built 28 feet by 12, and about 7 feet high and they contain two rooms. They are built with stone and clay, harled with lime, and covered with thatch and turf.

10,691. In Unst I suppose the houses now have generally chimneys?-Yes, mostly-one in each house.

10,692. Is it in the middle?-No, it is at one end and many of them have still an open fire at the kitchen end, sometimes in the middle, and sometimes at the gable; but we have built chimneys to some of the tenants in both ends.

10,693. Where there is an open fire, what is the exit for the smoke?-It goes through holes in the thatch left there for the purpose. These holes are left for air, and to allow the smoke to go out.

10,694. Was that the ordinary character of the Shetland houses until lately?-I think so.

10,695. There were no chimneys?-No.

10,696. Are the windows generally glazed now?-Yes; but in many of the old houses they had no windows.

10,697. Do some of these houses still exist in Unst?-I don't know any now, but there may be some for anything I know.

10,698. Are there any in other parts of Shetland?-I have seen them in more remote parts of Northmaven, but that may be a year or two ago.

10,699. You cannot say whether that is a common style of house in other parts of Shetland?-I cannot.

10,700. Have you any observations to make upon the printed evidence that was given in Edinburgh?-I think not.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Rev. WILLIAM SMITH, examined.

10,701. You have been for some time the clergyman of this parish?-For nearly three years.

10,702. During that time you have been a good deal among the people, and you are acquainted with the system that prevails of long payments of wages, and of running accounts?-I am acquainted with that from conversations with the men.

10,703. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that system on the character of the people in general?-[Page 261] I have. I think the present system has a very deteriorating effect upon the character of the people generally. I quite agree with what Mr. Edmonstone has said in that respect. There seems to be a great want of self-reliance, owing to the present system.

10,704. The men are in the habit of looking to the merchants to help them through bad season?-Yes, they are in the habit of looking to the merchants and others.

10,705. And I suppose they are not generally disappointed in that reliance?-Not so far as I am aware.

10,706. But you consider that that is not a wholesome thing?-I think it is not. I have had experience of the same class of people, living under a different system, and I have formed a decided opinion in favour of the cash system of payments as compared with the credit system which is carried on here.

10,707. Was your experience in that matter in Orkney?-Yes; among the same class of people.

10,708. Were the employments of the people of the same character there?-Their employments were similar, to a certain extent. Further, I find very often a want of ready cash among the people, and complaints are often made to me of a want of money for payment of school fees and other matters. I found, in speaking to one of the present proprietors, that his uncle had at one time from £500 to £600 of savings deposited in his hands by his tenantry, but now, so far as is known, there is little or nothing of that kind.

10,709. Do you think there is no saving?-I don't hear of it.

10,710. May it not be that the savings are deposited in another quarter?-It may be, unknown to me, and I have no doubt there is money in possession of many of the people, but of course they endeavour to keep that secret as far as possible; and I think there is a want of confidence between the tenantry and proprietors generally, owing to the present system.

10,711. How has the present system produced a want of confidence between the people and the proprietors?-The cause of that has been already explained in great measure by previous witnesses. There is, as has been already remarked, a monopoly here. There are small traders to whom their money would go, and they don't do what is proper, I think, to the firm who employs them. I have met them bringing goods from these small traders, which they were morally bound to have got from the larger merchants when their names were upon the books of these merchants. Hence there is an endeavour at concealment very often as to what they really have, and a want of proper faith.

10,712. Do you mean that a person who is indebted to one of the larger merchants is tempted to sell some of his stock to other people?-I don't say that he is tempted, but that such cases have often happened.

10,713. You mean that a man often sells his stock, or anything he has to sell, such as butter and eggs, to a small merchant, rather than to the large one to whom he is indebted?-Exactly.

10,714. Does he get money from the small merchant in that case?-I don't know that he does; but the impression is generally prevalent, that they may get goods of the same class from the smaller merchant at a lower price, and I think the present credit system does not enable the merchants who are in business here, to sell articles with the same profit as merchants do elsewhere. I find from my own experience that I can supply myself with the same goods at a less cost by bringing them from a considerable distance south, and by paying the expenses of the carriage, than I can buy them here. I think it would work better for all parties, both proprietors, fish-curers, and tenants, if such a system of money payments as has been suggested could be introduced.

10,715. Can you state whether it is universally the case, that persons in Shetland in the rank of clergyman or small proprietor do obtain their supplies out of Shetland?-That is invariably the practice, so far as I am aware.

10,716. Is that in consequence of a difference in price and quality, or only in consequence of a difference in the price of the goods?- It is in consequence of a difference both in quality and price.

10,717. Do you speak as to that matter from your own experience?-I do.

10,718. Is there any other matter which you are prepared to speak about with reference to this inquiry?-There is one thing to which Mr. Edmonstone referred which I think is of some importance. I think that if proprietors were letting their holdings directly to the tenants, the tenants and proprietors coming into contact as they do elsewhere, and the proprietor evincing in that way a greater interest in his tenantry, the result might be a considerable benefit. For one thing, there might be an improved class of dwellings. I find a great want of proper arrangement in the dwellings here, and a proper division of the sexes, and to that I attribute in a great measure the amount of illegitimacy and immorality which prevails. I don't think the houses which are occupied by the common class of people here are equal to these occupied by people of the same rank of life in other parts of the country. I have seen several houses here which are at present without windows, unless a pane of glass let into the roof may be called such. At the same time, I think the people themselves might do a very great deal towards improving their dwellings, provided they were receiving weekly or monthly wages, as the case might be, in prosecuting the fishing, and if they were encouraged to exercise greater self-reliance.

10,719. Have you known cases in which parties have been led into debt greater than they could liquidate, by the present system of long settlements?-I have. I have come personally into contact with such cases.

10,720. Have the people consulted you in their difficulties?-They have; and I am aware personally of fishermen having contracted debts which their survivors could not possibly liquidate. In the case of men who have lost their lives by accident, I have known that the firm by whom these men were employed have lost considerably: that, I had reason to believe was in consequence of the present system; and it was almost beyond the power of the widows and children to liquidate the debt which had been contracted.

10,721. In such a case, is there no system of insurance existing, by which the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund or some other society, comes to the aid of these widows and children?-I regret that there is not. I am aware that the men have been encouraged to contribute by the agents of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, but they have not availed themselves of it as I think they ought to have done.

10,722. Are there no agents for that Society in the island?-There are two or three of them, two at least. One is in the merchants' office and one is not; there may be others.

10,723. But the men don't take advantage of that?-They do not, to the extent which they ought.

10,724. So that, in the case of a boat accident of that sort, resort must be had, if the widows are destitute, either to poor-law relief or to public subscriptions?-Exactly.

10,725 In another part of Shetland I have had some evidence given with regard to the appropriation of such subscriptions to pay debts due by the fishermen who were lost. Are you aware of any such cases having occurred in Unst?-I have been applied to in that way when I was in charge of funds, but I have refused to make use of the funds for that purpose, because I did not think that, conscientiously, it was my duty to appropriate them in that way.

10,726. You mean that you have been asked to apply funds so subscribed to liquidate a debt due to the fish-merchant?-I have.

10,727. But your opinion was that the subscribers had not intended the fund to be applied for such a purpose?-Certainly it was.

10,728. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I should wish to remark that if a cash system were introduced, it would not only have a beneficial effect generally upon the community, but it would apply to [Page 262] all transactions between the merchants and the people generally, so that no negotiations between the merchants and people should take place unless in cash. I mean to say, that where widows are paid annuities, and where pensioners receive their quarterly or half-yearly allowances, these should be paid in cash. I don't attribute the fact that they are not paid in cash at present to any design upon the part of the merchants at all, but I think it is the result of a system which has been long continued here, and which I think is very much to be regretted.

10,729. Do you mean that any custom prevails according to which annuities of that kind are not paid in cash?-Such a custom does prevail.

10,730. What sort of annuities do you refer to?-I refer to annuities allowed to widows by Anderson's Trust, founded by the late Mr. Anderson, M.P., and I refer to allowances which are paid by the Inland Revenue to pensioners under the paymaster for the northern district of Inverness. I believe that such pensioners do receive payment of their pensions in goods. Of course that may be done by consent of the pensioners themselves. I don't say that it is done by design of the merchants, but I am aware that it does take place.

10,731. Who is the agent in these cases through whom the funds are payable?-The collecting supervisor of Excise at Lerwick.

10,732. Through what channel does he pay the annuities which you refer to in Unst?-Through the merchants, as a convenience to himself.

10,733. He remits the money to the merchants, and the annuities are taken out in goods?-Exactly.

10,734. Are they credited in the accounts which are run by the annuitants?-The annuities are very often taken out to nearly the full extent of what they have to receive before their money comes.

10,735. Are you in possession of that information from the annuitants themselves?-I am. I think it is part of the general system which prevails, to pay in that way. The people have gradually drifted into it, and seem to look upon it as something quite natural and reasonable. They have not been accustomed to anything else. I have also met in with cases of men receiving payment of days' wages by lines upon the shop, instead of receiving a payment in cash and attribute that to the very same thing.

10,736. In these cases where days' wages were paid in goods, were the men working for a farmer, or to the shopkeeper himself?-No, they were working for contractors upon buildings.

10,737. Is it the case that there is sometimes considerable difficulty in making such payments in cash in Shetland from the scarcity of silver money?-I have no doubt there is often some difficulty in that way but I am never at a loss for silver money if I have to make any payments to labourers or others, because I can get a cheque cashed in silver by any small merchant to the extent of £15 or £20 at almost any time. At least I have met with such cases. I have not applied to the larger merchants for cash on such occasions, but I have been offered silver to that extent by a small merchant.

10,738. Would there be any difficulty in getting change of a pound at a large merchant's shop?-Yes, I have met with such a difficulty.

10,739. Why?-From the want of silver.

10,740. Is that because they transact their business to such a large amount by barter?-Yes; I attribute the want of silver, to a large extent, to that.

10,741. Are you expressing that opinion from a single instance, or from a variety of cases?-From repeated instances happening within my own experience in which I have not been able to get change. I have not been able to get change at a large shop, but very frequently I have got it at the smaller shops. The general opinion is that a greater amount of the silver coin is to be found with these smaller merchants than at the larger shops, and in that opinion I quite concur.

10,742. Are you speaking now of what you know to be the general opinion, or of what you have found to be the case in your general experience?-I am speaking of what I know to be the case from my own experience.

10,743. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of this system upon the truthfulness and uprightness of the Shetland character?-I have formed the opinion that it has a very bad effect indeed upon the straightforwardness and truthfulness of the character of the people in this part of Shetland, for of course I have, had no experience elsewhere. I have found among the younger portion of the population generally a desire or at least a tendency, not to be so straightforward as one would wish.

10,744. How does that arise from the system?-I think it arises from it in this way?-Very often a fisherman or his wife may be taking their produce to a small merchant, under the impression that they will get a better bargain there than from a larger merchant; and there is a general desire to conceal what their possessions may be. I have found by experience that I have been imposed upon in one or two instances with regard to that.

10,745. But do you think that has occurred in more instances than would have occurred in any other parish in Scotland?-I do think so. I think that one great evil of the present system arises from the people not feeling the value of what they purchase, because they get it on credit here, and are led to use what the same class of people do not use elsewhere. For instance, they use a great deal of tea and fine flour, and fancy biscuits and preserves, and other things of that kind. I think that has a very deleterious effect upon the people themselves, because it encourages prodigality, and the same earnings would go much further if laid out on different and more wholesome fare.

10,746. Do you think they take these things because they get them on credit?-They get them on credit; and my belief is, they do not feel it so much as if they were paying ready money for them.

10,747. You mean they do not feel it except once a year?-Yes; and I believe they would think more about it if they had to pay for them in ready cash.

10,748. Your knowledge with regard to the payment of annuities and pensions. I presume arises from the fact that you have in many cases to sign a certificate before the annuitant or pensioner is entitled to receive payment?-Yes.

10,749. You have to certify that the parties are living, and that you know them?-Yes.

10,750. Is there any other thing you wish to add?-Not that I remember just now.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ROBERT GRAY, examined.

10,751. Are you a fisherman here?-I am. I fish to Mr. Sandison at the station.

10,752. Where do you live?-I live at Snarravoe.

10,753. You have heard the evidence to-day, and you desire to come forward and make some statement yourself with regard to the advances of meal you have received from Messrs. Spence & Co?-Yes. I wish to say that if I had not been advanced by them in two bad years, I must have starved with my family, because, I did not have the means with which to buy supplies.

10,754. Were you in debt to Spence & Co. at the beginning of the two bad years?-Yes.

10,755. And you continued to fish for them?-Yes.

10,756. Have you got further into debt during late years, or have you cleared any of your debt off?-I have got a little out of debt, because I had some cattle to spare, and I had a bigger fishing; but at the time when I had nothing with which to support my family they supported us and paid my rent too.

10,757. On whose property do you live?-On Major Cameron's property.

10,758. Then you paid your rent to him?-I paid my rent to him until Spence & Co. took me into their service.

[Page 263]

10,759. Who did you fish for formerly?-Captain Cameron kept the fishing when he was alive, and I fished for him, and at other times I just fished for the man that I got the best bargain from.

10,760. But at one time Captain Cameron held you bound to fish for himself?-Yes.

10,761. You now take your supplies from Spence & Co?-Yes; and I could not be better supplied than I have been by them.

10,762. You don't deal anywhere else?-No, except for any small thing which I require; and if I have a penny or so I go into any shop and buy.

10,763. Do you get any cash in the course of the year?-I get it when I ask for it.

10,764. How much have you asked for?-I never could ask for much because I was in debt, and I am in debt yet; but when I asked for a little, I got it at any time.

10,765. I suppose you have some money passing through your hands at times?-It is not very much. I went south some years ago and I had no money, and I wrote to those people to supply my family while was south, and they gave them what they required. 10,766. Is that all you wish to say?-Yes.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, recalled.

10,767. Do you wish to say anything further?-Yes. The reason why the big shops have no change is, that they are daily paying for produce and advances to their fishermen, and change is very much wanted. I have often had to issue small checks for want of change promising to pay them when I got the change.

10,768. Is there any other person here who wishes to give evidence or to make any statement? [No answer] Then I adjourn the sitting here until further notice.

<Adjourned>.

UYEASOUND: SATURDAY, JANUARY 20, 1872

CHARLES WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,769. You are a fisherman at Cullivoe in North Yell?-Yes.

10,770. How long have you lived there?-I have lived for four years at Gutcher.

10,771. Where were you before?-At Mid Yell.

10,772. Have you been a fisherman in Yell all your life?-No; I have been south at sea half the time, and at the whale fishing.

10,773. Do you do much in the winter fishing?-A good deal.

10,774. You do a good deal more at that than your neighbours?- Yes, a good deal.

10,775. How much will you make for a winter and spring fishing, before the regular haaf fishing begins?-Last winter I made about £12, and in the spring £6.

10,776. Have you made a good fishing of it this winter season, so far as it is gone?-Yes, very good.

10,777. Do you sell your fish as you land them?-No, I salt them as I land them.

10,778. Will you make as good a fishing of it this season as you did last season?-I hope I shall. I have every prospect of doing so.

10,779. You carry on that winter fishing with a small boat?-Yes, with a small four-oared boat which I work with my two boys.

10,780. You think you make a great deal more in the winter and spring than any of your neighbours?-Yes, I have always done that, because I devote my time to it exclusively.

10,781. In fact you are more industrious and courageous?-I think I have been that.

10,782. Do you think it would be possible for a man here to live by fishing all the year round?-I am living by it myself.

10,783. Have you not a piece of ground?-I have a small piece of ground, but it can do very little for me, because I am paying about £12 of rent and rates. I have to buy all my livelihood in the course of the year from my fishing.

10,784. You do not depend much upon your ground?-No.

10,785. Not so much as most of the tenants round about you?-I do not.

10,786. Is that because the rent you pay is higher than is paid by others?-I have a better house than others, and that makes the land higher.

10,787. Do you think that if you had large boats here, such as they have on the east coast, the fishing might be carried on all the winter?-Not the Faroe fishing, or the fishing which is carried on in the summer time. The deep-sea fishing could not be carried on in winter, because there is such a heavy current.

10,788. Do you think that even with the large boats, in which you have a shelter for two or three of the men, it would not be possible to carry on that fishing?-With the large boats we could hardly work the lines in the way we work them now.

10,789. Have you thought of trying that?-I have, and I am thinking of trying it now.

10,790. You are going to make an experiment about it this season?-Yes; I am thinking about trying it now with a large boat, such as are used along the Scotch coast. If I had a boat like theirs, I think I could fish all March and all April and May.

10,791. Do you know whether anything of that kind has been tried before in Shetland?-There has been no attempt made in a boat like that.

10,792. But you believe there may be a fair chance of doing a good business with it?-I should think there is.

10,793. Do you think you could not go out to the haaf with a boat like that in winter as you do in summer?-We would trust more to her if she were decked over.

10,794. Do you think you could manage to get out to the deep sea with such a boat as that in winter?-Yes, we could manage to get there; but the difficulty would be to manage the sailing in of our lines. The way we do just now is to haul them in.

10,795. You mean the difficulty is to take in your lines with the boat sailing?-Yes; the same as they do on the Scotch coast.

10,796. Your practice in Shetland is to haul in your lines while rowing, and never to haul them in while sailing?-Yes; we sometimes set them while sailing.

10,797. But you believe you could learn to haul them in while sailing also?-Yes.

10,798. Are the lines you use of the same kind and the same length as are used on the east coast?-The lines we use are 42 fathoms to the length of line, and we use hundred of these lines.

10,799. Is it long since you were at the whaling?-I think the last year I was there was 1864.

10,800. How were you engaged that year?-I was engaged in Mr. Tait's office, in Lerwick.

10,801. Did you get your outfit from him?-I got my advance; I did not need an outfit.

[Page 264]

10,802. Had you been there before?-Yes, often.

10,803. Had you an account with Mr. Tait that year?-Yes, I had several accounts.

10,804. Was that for your own supplies at home?-Yes; they required a little while I was away.

10,805. I suppose you always had an account with the agent who engaged you for the fishing?-Yes.

10,806. At that time I believe these accounts were generally settled in the agent's office and the amount of your account was deducted from the payment of your wages and the first payment of oil-money?-Yes.

10,807. And you settled the final payment of oil-money at any time that suited you when you were in Lerwick?-Yes.

10,808. Was the settlement of your account made when you landed from the ship?-Yes; if we chose to make it there and then, we could do so.

10,809. But it was very often later?-Yes, pretty often. I cannot say how much it was later. If I came into Lerwick, and the packet was ready to leave, so that I had not time to carry through a settlement then, I would go home, and then I would return in about a fortnight or so, and have a settlement made.

10,810. How was the second payment of oil-money made to you? Was it in cash?-Yes, generally it was in cash.

10,811. Did you sometimes get it in goods?-If I wanted goods I could get them, but I was commonly paid in cash.

10,812. When you were to settle for your first payment, I suppose you generally had some small account standing?-Yes.

10,813. Where was it settled?-In the office.

10,814. Was the office beside the shop?-Yes.

10,815. Was it always with Mr. Tait that you engaged for the whale fishing?-No; I have been out for Mr. Leask too.

10,816. Did both of these gentlemen have their offices in the shop?-Yes.

10,817. When you went into the shop were you generally asked if you wanted anything?-Yes; commonly we were asked that.

10,818. Was that before the settlement or after it?-It was after we had done settling, and when we had money coming to us.

10,819. Had your money been paid to you before that?-No.

10,820. But when you found out the total that was due to you, you were asked whether you wanted any goods?-Yes.

10,821. And you would generally take something else?-I did not take very much myself. I always got the money.

10,822. When you went to settle for your final balance, were you also asked whether you wanted anything?-It was always when I came down again to go to Greenland, or to go south, that I got it.

10,823. At that time you would want some supplies to be sent home?-Yes.

10,824. And if you wanted anything of that kind, it would be set down against your next account?-No, it was set down against the second payment of oil-money, if we had so much coming to us.

10,825. What you have been describing was the ordinary practice during all the years you were at the whale fishing, both for Mr. Leask and Mr. Tait?-Yes, and for Messrs. Hay also.

10,826. Did you sometimes engage with Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

10,827. Do you think it would be better to have your fishing paid by monthly payments, according to the quantity delivered, and at a price fixed at the beginning of the season, rather than to have the long accounts you have now?-I don't know that, upon the whole, it would be any better for myself; and I can only speak for myself. Those whom I have been serving for the last three years have given me money whenever I wanted it.

10,828. But don't you think you would have the money more under your own command if you were paid monthly or fortnightly?-I could not say that I would have it more under my own command, because they give it to me whenever I ask for it.

10,829. I suppose the merchants are always very glad to get you to fish for them?-I suppose they are.

10,830. Are you not about the best fisherman in the islands?-I have heard that said since I started.

10,831 And I suppose you have generally a balance to get at the end of the year above the supplies you have got?-Yes, sometimes.

10,832. Who do you fish for?-Spence & Co.; I have done so for the last three years.

10,833. Do you get all your supplies at Uyea Sound?-Yes, except occasionally when I send down for anything to Lerwick.

10,834. Do you think you get any advantage in price or quality by sending to Lerwick for your goods?-I do not.

10,835. I suppose you get all money if you ask for it?-Yes. 10 836. And you don't require to take any supplies from Spence & Co. unless you wish?-No; I only take meal and oil-cloth, and the like of that.

10,837. But you might get all your pay in money if you wished, and be able to buy your goods anywhere else?-Yes, I could get every cent of my money if I wanted it.

10,838. Is it entirely of your own choice that you deal in the shop?-Entirely.

10,839. Where is it that boats are most commonly lost on the coast of Shetland? Is it at sea or in the sounds?-It is when we come in towards the land. We fish fifty or sixty miles dead off the land, and we will come in within ten or twelve miles of the land before we get into any danger. Then we come in upon the tides.

10,840. Therefore, if you were out at the haaf in your large boats, these boats might live through any storm?-Yes; a large boat could keep outside and not require to come in to involve herself in the tides, but when we have a small boat we are forced to come in.

10,841. A man cannot stay outside in these small boats?-No; the weather is always getting worse, and the sea getting higher and higher on them, and they must run for the laud.

10,842. But with a larger boat you might run out to sea in a storm?-Yes.

10,483. Do you do that sometimes with your small boats, and escape?-Yes.

10,484. You think that is often a better course to take than running for the land in a storm?-Yes; the summer breezes are not very long.

10,845. But do you do that in a winter storm?-In winter we do not go very far off the land in our small boats.

10,846. But in a winter storm with one of the large boats you are to try, you think you may run off to sea and be comparatively safe?- I think so.

<Adjourned>.

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LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 22, 1872

WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.

10,847. You are cashier and principal clerk to Mr. Joseph Leask, merchant, shipowner, and agent in Lerwick?-I am.

10,848. You have been for nineteen years in his business, during which time you have been employed in shipping and discharging seamen, engaging and settling with fishermen, and employing and paying hundreds of labouring people?-I have.

10,849. You are also fully acquainted with the barter system as it prevails in Shetland?-I am.

10,850. I understand you desire to be examined with regard to the Report furnished to the Board of Trade in September 1870 by Mr. Hamilton, as well as on certain questions and answers in the Report of the Commission, of which you have given me a list?-I do.

10,851. Will you give me, in the first place, a general description of Mr. Leask's business? He is, I believe, a proprietor of land to some extent in Shetland?-Yes, and he is also a pretty large proprietor of house property in town.

10,852. What estates does he hold?-He has estates in West and South Yell, Ulsta and Coppister.

10,853. Has Ulsta been long in his possession?-I think about ten years, but I could not exactly say.

10,854. What is the extent of his estates in Yell?-There are about fifty tenants on the Yell property, and the annual value is upwards of £200.

10,855. I understand that in Yell Mr. Leask now carries on the fishing to a considerable extent?-He has only commenced in the past season to carry out the fishing in Yell on his own account.

10,856. Has he a station and shop there?-He has now. He commenced them at the beginning of this year at Ulsta. The shopkeeper is William Hughson.

10,857. How many boats were employed there last year?-Four.

10,858. Are the fishermen bound to fish for the proprietor?-They are not bound to fish. They requested Mr. Leask to employ them last year, and it was at their own request he did so.

10,859. Who was the fish-curer at that station previously?- William Jack Williamson, and James Johnston. Williamson lived at Ulsta, and Johnston at West Yell Sound.

10,860. Was the request you have mentioned from the fishermen to Mr. Leask to employ them a written one?-No; it was verbal.

10,861. How was it conveyed to you?-By the people themselves.

10,862. By how many of them?-By about half dozen or thereby; I cannot state the number exactly.

10,863. Did they come to Lerwick for the purpose?-They always come to Lerwick in November to settle their rent accounts; and in November 1870 a few of them requested Mr. Leask to build boats for them, and they would fish to him rather than to Johnston and Williamson.

10,864. Had Williamson given up business at that time?-No.

10,865. Had he still a shop and curing station at Ulsta?-Yes.

10,866. In consequence of the request made to you by the men, what steps were taken to take over the business at Ulsta?-The business was not taken over at all. Mr. Leask simply built boats for three crews, and employed three masters to obtain crews at Ulsta and West Yell. One boat belonged to Ulsta, and the other two to West Yell.

10,867. Did Mr. Williamson hold premises from Mr. Leask on the Ulsta estate?-Yes.

10,868. He paid rent for them, but he had no lease?-No.

10,869. Did he receive notice that his tenure was at an end?-Yes; he received notice of that verbally two years or year and a half before he had to leave.

10,870. Had he received it before the verbal requisition was made by the fishermen to Mr. Leask that he should take them into his service?-I think so; but I could not be sure.

10,871. Was it in the contemplation of Mr. Leask to commence business there himself, at the time when he gave Williamson the first notice to leave?-I am not quite sure. I think he was not sure about it himself, whether he would commence business there on his own account, or let the premises to another party. The matter had not been fully considered; but I think Mr. Leask had it in contemplation to make some change, because the Yell people were not altogether satisfied with the state of matters at that time.

10,872. And the requisition made by the six fishermen had the effect of bringing him to a decision?-I suppose it had; at any rate it helped. The men were all of opinion that they would be better served by Mr. Leask, than by any person whom he might send there.

10,873. Were the fishermen under any obligation to fish for Williamson?-I don't think they were bound.

10,874. Was there any understanding when he took his premises, that the fishermen on that estate should fish for him?-No. Mr. Williamson was on the estate before Mr. Leask bought it; and after Mr. Leask bought it the men were at liberty to go wherever they pleased, either to fish at home or to go to Greenland, or to go south, or anywhere they liked. They were not bound in any way.

10,875. But when they did go to the home fishing, were they at liberty to sell their fish to any one they chose?-The boats belonged to Williamson, and of course they would be bound to give him the fish.

10,876. But were they at liberty to go in the boats of any other fish-curer?-Yes; they were at perfect liberty to fish for whom they pleased, so far as the landlord was concerned.

10,877. Was there any written lease of the premises to Williamson at any time?-He never had any written lease, so far as I am aware.

10,878. If there had been a written lease at the time when Mr. Leask bought the property, you would have been aware of it?-I think so.

10,879. It would have come into your hands along with the other writings relative to the estate?-Yes.

10,880. Either before or after the application of the West Yell tenants to Mr. Leask, was any intimation made to the rest of the tenants on that estate, or to the whole of them, that he (Mr. Leask) was about to open a shop there himself, and to receive fish?-The men who made the representation to Mr. Leask were given to understand that he would build boats for them; and when they went home they spread the report that Mr. Leask intended to do that.

10,881. Was any written intimation made to the tenants to that effect?-None that I know of.

10,882. Or any verbal intimation other than you have now mentioned?-The masters of the boats were to go and engage their own crews. We appointed masters, and they went among the tenants to engage whom they could get.

10,883. What instructions were given to the masters?-They were engaged on the same terms as usual, and they were to be paid in the same way.

10,884. But what instructions were given to them about telling the tenants?-There were no special instructions given at all.

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10,885. Were they desired to inform the tenants that Mr. Leask was undertaking the fishing himself, and that he expected the tenants to engage in his boats' crews?-At that time Mr. Leask could get more men amongst his tenants than he could employ, and there was no need for any pressure. More men were anxious to go than he had boats for at that time.

10,886. Had you any correspondence with Mr. Williamson about him leaving Ulsta?-Yes, a very long correspondence, and rather an amusing one. He implored Mr. Leask to allow him to remain for another year, as his business was so extensive that he could not wind it up in so short a time.

10,887. What was Mr. Leask's objection to allow him to remain?-He required the premises as a dwellinghouse for the incoming man, William Hughson; and of course it would not do to have opposition.

10,888. But he had made no arrangements for that at the time when Williamson was requested to prepare for removal?-He had not.

10,889. Then when was the correspondence? Was it when Williamson first got the notice or afterwards?-It was not until long afterwards. I think Williamson was of opinion that Mr. Leask would not remove him, and he trusted to that until the very last. I think he had some idea of getting the new premises, notwithstanding what had passed.

10,890. Were new premises built?-Yes, they were built last year. They were begun in June and only completed in December 1871.

10,891. Was Williamson still carrying on the fishing in 1871 while these new premises were being built?-Yes. He was fishing and carrying on the business the same as before.

10,892. How many men had he fishing for him last year at Ulsta?-I think he had about the same number of boats that he had formerly.

10,893. And he still had the same premises?-He occupied the same premises all along. The premises which Mr. Leask is occupying now for business purposes are altogether new. Williamson continued to occupy the old premises until November 1871, when he had to leave.

10,894. Where did he manage to get fishermen when Mr. Leask had put on three new boats?-I think he got some from Mr. M'Queen's estate, and also some of Mr. Leask's own tenants.

10,895. Does Mr. Leask intend to put on a larger number of boats this year?-I think he intends to put on one or two more.

10,896. But the boats' crews that he employed last year had formerly been in the employment of Williamson and Johnston?- Yes.

10,897. Is Johnston still carrying on business?-Yes, he is carrying on business at Sound, in West Yell, where he has a small property.

10,898. Do you know how many boats he has?-I think he has two but I am not sure. Some of Mr. Leask's tenants fished for Johnston last year also.

10,899. Will Mr. Leask's tenants be allowed to fish for Johnston and Williamson in future?-I don't think they would do so if Mr. Leask would give them employment.

10,900. But will they be allowed to fish for any other than Mr. Leask?-I don't think Mr. Leask would force any one to fish for him.

10,901. The tenants have received no intimation to the contrary?- No.

10,902. And no hint?-No hint whatever. In fact, there were tenants applying in November last for new boats, and requesting Mr. Leask to build new boats for them, because there are a good many men who would like to be employed by him, in preference to being employed by Johnston or any other body.

10,903. Do you know whether many of the men were in debt to Williamson when he left Ulsta?-I don't know.

10,904. Was that one of the reasons why Williamson was anxious not to quit in a hurry?-He alleged that reason; but I am of opinion that there were not many of them in debt.

10,905. Did he ask you to relieve him of any of these debts?- Never.

10,906. Do you suppose he has any chance of recovering any debts that may exist now?-Certainly he has. The men have all got effects of some kind or another, so that he may easily take them into court and recover what they are due him. They are all in very good circumstances; there are none of them who could not pay their debts.

10,907. Has Mr. Leask any property in Sandsting?-Yes; he has the property of Sand and Inner Sand. There are between 40 and 50 tenants upon it.

10,908. Are most of them engaged in the summer fishing?-A good many of them are. Some of them fish for Garriock & Co., and some for Mr. Leask, and I think some for Charles Nicholson.

10,909. Is that property in the south side of the parish?-Yes; it is near Reawick.

10,910. Has Mr. Leask any station in that district?-No.

10,911. Then where do they fish for him?-They go in some of his vessels to the Faroe fishing. He has no home-fishing station in Sandsting.

10,912. Are they at liberty to go to the home fishing or to the Faroe fishing for anybody they like?-Yes. They are under no obligation to fish for Mr. Leask. They can go where they like, and they have always done so.

10,913. Do they hold their land as yearly tenants?-Yes.

10,912. What other property has Mr. Leask?-South Whiteness, to the north-west of Scalloway, in the parish of Tingwall. I think there are about seventeen or eighteen tenants on that property. They fish principally for Mr. Leask in the Faroe fishing, and in the spring fishing, which occupies about a month or a little more.

10,915. Then they are not generally engaged in the home fishing?-No; they are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing.

10,916. How many of them may have gone to that fishing last year?-There may have been above a dozen.

10,917. These men, I presume, have accounts at Mr. Leask's shop at Lerwick?-Yes.

10,918. Is there any stipulation made with them that they shall man his Faroe smacks?-None. They are not bound at all. They may go where they please and engage themselves with whoever they please.

10,919. Has Mr. Leask any other properties in Shetland?-He has some small properties in other places-in Quarff, North Roe, and Aithsting. He has two tenants in Quarff, three in Aithsting, and one in North Roe. These tenants do not fish for Mr. Leask at all, and never have done so, or been asked to do so.

10,920. Then Mr. Leask's business consists in sending smacks to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

10,921. And in sending boats to the summer fishing?-Now it does, but not formerly. It was only last year that he commenced the home fishing at Ulsta.

10,922. Has he commenced that business anywhere else?-No. Ulsta is the only summer-fishing station that he has.

10,923. Mr. Leask is also engaged in the whale fishing, both as an owner of ships and as an agent?-Yes.

10,924. I believe it is specially with regard to the agency business that you wish to make some statement?-Yes. I wish to make a statement with regard to Mr. Hamilton's Report to the Board of Trade in November 1870. Some of it is so utterly absurd that I should like to have it contradicted. He says, 'I ought to mention that the truck system, in an open or disguised form, prevails in Shetland to an extent which, I believe, is unknown in any other part of the United Kingdom.' Now, that I deny <in toto>; and I think I will be able to prove before I am done that it is not correct. 'And makes its depressing influence felt in all the ramifications of the industrial and social life of the natives.'

10,925. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not only is [Page 267] the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' Is that the case?-There may be some cases of that, but it is not general. I deny that almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt. Then he says, 'These fishermen, for the most part, also rent small farms of from three to four acres.' That also I deny Mr. Leask has about 120 tenants, and I think the average quantity of land they hold is about twelve acres of enclosed ground, besides common.

10,926. What is the amount of their rent?-The rent is something less than 10s. an acre, on the average. Some have as much as twenty-three acres, and in some cases they have about seven. The rental I have given is for the enclosed ground within the township; and in addition to that, the people have extensive commons.

10,927. On Mr. Leask's estates are the scattalds still left to the people without any payment?-Yes, except in Yell, where they have to pay 6d. per annum for every sheep. They also pay something for ponies, but nothing for cattle.

10,928. I omitted to ask whether Mr. Leask has the management of any properties except his own?-No.

10,929. He is not tacksman of any property, and he holds no property in lease?-No. I may mention that he has an assignation of the rents of a small property in Mid Yell, in security for debt. The rents are paid regularly, and he has nothing to do with the tenants except to draw their rent at the term.

10,930. Then what you deny in that sentence of Mr. Hamilton's Report is merely his statement as to the extent of the holdings of the men?-Yes. I hold they are three or four times larger than he says.

10,931. In the same sentence he adds, 'And it is from them (that is, the fishermen) and from their sons that the crews of the whaling vessels are mainly drawn.' Is that the case?-I don't deny that at all. It is quite true.

10,932. Is it also true that there are no whaling vessels belonging to Lerwick-that they belong principally to Dundee, Peterhead, and Hull, and that the owners of these vessels engage large portions of their crews at Lerwick through agents?-Yes.

10,933. Is it also true that these agents get little direct profit from their agency?-They get 21/2 per cent. commission on the gross wages paid through them.

10,934. Do you consider that an adequate remuneration?-It is not nearly an adequate remuneration for the amount of trouble they have; but it has been the practice to pay that, and there is so much competition amongst the agents that it has brought it down. I believe it was formerly 5 per cent.

10,935. I believe there are only three or four agents in Lerwick, and that the commission is fixed by mutual agreement between them and the shipowners?-Yes. It has always been 21/2 per cent. within my recollection.

10,936. Is it the competition that prevents the commission from being raised to such a figure as would be a sufficient remuneration in itself?-Yes.

10,937. The agents are engaged in business as shopkeepers and outfitters?-Yes.

10,938. Then it is the case that they have little direct profit from their agency; and Mr. Hamilton goes on to say, 'Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men.' Is that statement correct?-I think some of them make very little profit indeed from the men. They sell their goods as cheap, if not cheaper, than other shopkeepers do; they give credit to the men, and sometimes they lose a good deal of it through bad debts when there is a bad voyage.

10,939. Is a bad voyage in the whaling a thing of frequent occurrence?-It is very frequent, especially in the seal fishing.

10,940. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'Many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage?'-That is often the case with young hands. They come here without any clothing, and require perhaps from £5 to £6 worth in order to fit them out for the Greenland voyage. The wages for young hands are about £1 a month, and 1s. per tun of oil. When they have no success, they are back in about a month and a half; that is only 30s. they have to get, and that is all the agent has for his advance.

10,941. You are speaking now of the sealing voyage?-Yes. It only occupies about five or six weeks with the steamers.

10,942. But when a man goes on a sealing voyage of that kind, is he taken for the whaling voyage afterwards?-Sometimes, but sometimes not.

10,943. Do many of them only go to the sealing voyage?-Yes. Last year the majority bargained for the sealing voyage only, and did not go on the whaling voyage. Some of them re-engaged again, but many of them did not.

10,944. But, as a rule, do one-half of them engage for a second voyage after the sealing voyage was over?-I should say they do.

10,945. And many of them, I suppose, engage for a whaling voyage, who have not been at the sealing voyage at the commencement of the season?-That is sometimes the case.

10,946. How many men have you engaged for the last four or five years for the sealing voyages?-I could not say exactly for the last four or five years, but last year we engaged 207 for the sealing voyage, and 80 for the whaling, or 287 altogether.

10,947. Is not that an unusual proportion between the sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. In former years we used to engage more for the whaling, and fewer for the sealing; but last year the owners took it into their heads to engage the men only for the sealing, and discharge them at the end of that voyage; and then, when the vessels were going to the whaling, they re-engaged only such men as they wanted.

10,948. What was their reason for that?-I suppose they were trying to economize. I don't know whether they economized or not, but it must have been with that view they tried it.

10,949 Are the crews larger in the sealing voyages than in the whaling?-They are. I should say that ten men fewer per ship are required for the whaling than for the sealing

10,950. How many ships would these represent?-Seven for the sealing, and four for the whaling.

10,951. So that you had three ships fewer under your care for the whaling than for the sealing last year?-Yes.

10,952 How did that happen? Did the ships not go to the whaling?-The 'Esquimaux' did not call here for men last year. The 'Victor' did not go at all to the whaling, and the third one remained at the sealing the whole season.

10,953. Then, in one ship the men you engaged would be employed through the whole season for the sealing?-Yes. That vessel tried whaling for a short time but I suppose it did not succeed.

10,954. You say that when a young man goes to the sealing at first, he incurs a larger debt for outfit than the whole amount of his wages?-Very often he does.

10,955. So that the merchant who engages him is often a serious loser, having no security in the shape of wages?-He risks his goods on the success of the voyage, and when the voyage is unsuccessful, he comes out a very serious loser occasionally.

10,956. But the man remains in his debt and may pay it up in a subsequent year?-Very often he does not. When a man gets into debt, we generally lose him. He goes to some other agent, or he goes south.

10,957. Is he more likely to go to another agent when he is in debt?-Yes. We very seldom get a man back again who is in debt to us.

10,958. How does that affect Mr. Hamilton's statement?-He says, 'The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for those who are in their debt.' Now we very seldom or never get them employed again when they once get into debt, and therefore it is our interest not to allow them to get into debt, if possible.

10,959. But you would be very glad to get employment for such a man if you could?-If we could get him employment we would be very glad; but they take [Page 268] very good care not to allow us to catch them. Of course, there are some of them who pay their debts, but that is the exception. I am now referring to the young hands-those who get into debt on their first voyage.

10,960. When a man of older standing gets into debt, is he more likely to pay up in a subsequent year?-Yes. A man whose family is settled here is more likely to pay up.

10,961. Of course, in his case, you are not only interested in getting employment for him, but he also is anxious to get employment through you?-Yes, it is a mutual accommodation; but there are very few of the old hands in debt. It is principally among the young men who make unsuccessful voyages that anything of that kind happens. Then we come to a very serious mistake which Mr. Hamilton makes. He says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeepers, are practically debarred from doing so; for any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any employment again.' Now, it is nonsense to say, that there are often more men than berths. We have often had to go and search for men, and ships have frequently had to go on their voyages short of men. That has often occurred within the last nineteen years to my knowledge. I have seen vessels lying here for day after day, when we were searching for hands and could not get them, and after all they had to leave short-handed.