NOTES 1. (continued 14)

4090. You cannot say whether it was paid before the superintendent or not?-No; I cannot say.

4091. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No; I think everything has been referred to.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANET EXTER, examined.

4092. Where do you live?-At Satter, in Sandwick parish.

4093. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

4094. For whom?-For Mr. Robert Linklater. I knitted for him first.

4095. Does he supply you with wool?-He gives us worsted to knit.

4096. You don't knit with your own worsted?-No.

4097. What do you knit?-Mostly veils.

4098. How often you come to Lerwick with them?-Generally at the end of every month.

4099. Do you keep an account with Mr. Linklater?-We get no lines, and I have not a pass-book.

4100. Why have you not a pass-book?-Because he thought there was no use giving us a pass-book when he marked all the things down in his own book, and he would not give it.

4101. When you go to him with your veils, how are you paid?- Very poorly. We just get 8d. for a veil.

4102. How is that paid to you-in money or goods?-In goods. I have asked for a payment in money, but he would not give any. He gives us tea for 9d. and 10d. a quarter.

4103. Would you give your veils for less if you could get money for them?-Yes, for a little less.

4104. For how much less?-Not much.

4105. Are you not as well off getting the goods as you got money?-No; I would be better off with the money.

4106. Why? Do you not want to buy the articles [Page 103] which Mr. Linklater sells to you?-No. Sometimes we need a little meal.

4107. Have you no other means of getting meal than from your knitting?-No.

4108. Do you not work out of doors?-We work in the field and in the turnips.

4109. But it is yourself I am speaking of. Do you live with your father and mother?-Yes.

4110. Have they got a bit of ground?-Very little; a peerie (small) bit.

4111. But you think you would be better with money, and you want to buy meal with it?-Yes, I want to buy some meal. I dropped knitting to Mr. Linklater and went to Mr. Sinclair. I asked a little money from him, and I got 2s. or 3s. So far as I saw, there was more justice in him than in Mr. Linklater.

4112. If you were only paid for your knitting in dresses and goods of that sort, what did you do when you wanted to buy meal?-We had to take the goods home, and give the cotton and tea for the meal we wanted.

4113. To whom did you give the cotton and tea?-Just to any person who would give us meal for them.

4114. Is there a shop in your neighbourhood?-Yes.

4115. Have you given goods there in exchange for meal?-Yes, sometimes.

4116. Does the shopkeeper there take your goods from you in that way, in exchange for any articles you want?-Yes, sometimes, when we require anything.

4117. What is his name?-Mr. Gavin Henderson, at Ness, Sandwick.

4118. Is it a common thing for Mr. Henderson to take goods from you?-No.

4119. He generally wants to be paid in money?-Yes.

4120. Is that the only thing you have done with the goods except using them yourself?-No. When I met any person that I could get a little meal from in exchange for them, I have given them for that.

4121. Have you ever given away your goods to any other person than Mr. Henderson for money or meal?-Not very often.

4122. Have you ever done it?-Yes.

4123. To whom have you given them?-Just to any person thereabout.

4124. You have given them to any neighbour who wanted the goods, and happened to have meal?-Yes.

4125. When was that?-It was about two or three years back.

4126. You have not done it for the last two or three years?-No.

4127. How was that? Have you been better off?-Yes, a little; but not much.

4128. You have been getting some money from Mr. Sinclair during the last two or three years?-Yes; a shilling now and then.

4129. And that would help you?-Yes, it helped a little.

4130. How much do you get in a month for your knitting?-I will get a shilling and a sixpence at a time.

4131. But what is the value of your knitting? What are your earnings in a month?-I will make about eight or nine veils in a month; and when they are made of the finest worsted I get 16d. for them.

4132. Then you will be earning 12s. or 13s. in a month?-Yes.

4133. And you will get a shilling of that in cash now and then?- Yes.

4134. Do you spend the rest in dress?-Yes, and cotton.

4135. How much of that will you give away in the course of a year for meal and money?-I could not say.

4136. You will get about £6 or £7 worth of dress in the course of a year: do you require all that for your own use?-No, I don't require it all.

4137. You give some of it to the rest of your family?-Yes.

4138. Is that all you have got to say?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE SANDISON; examined.

4139. You have come in from Sandwick parish to give some evidence about the way in which you are paid for your hosiery?- Yes.

4140. Do you knit for any person in town?-Yes; have knitted for Mr. Robert Linklater for four years.

4141. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.

4142. And are you paid in goods?-Yes.

4143. Do you ever get money?-No.

4144. Have you ever asked for it?-I asked for it one time, and he said he expected money from me, and not I from him.

4145. That was for goods you were to get?-Yes.

4146. But you gave him hosiery instead of money, and you got his goods?-Yes.

4147. Have you ever disposed of any of the goods you got in that way, in order to provide yourself with provisions or to pay rent?- Yes.

4148. To whom have you sold them?-I have sold them to several persons for oil to see to knit.

4149. Do you burn oil in your lamps?-Yes.

4150. To whom did you sell them for oil?-To several persons.

4151. To neighbours?-Yes.

4152. Tell me anything you gave away in that way?-I have given tea.

4153. How much?-Sometimes two ounces for bottle of oil.

4154. When did you do that last?-Last year.

4155. Did you do it often?-Three times.

4156. Did you ever give away your goods for anything else?- Sometimes we gave them away for wool to make into worsted.

4157. Who did you buy wool from?-From any one that I could get it from.

4158. Give me the names of some of the people from whom you got oil and worsted in exchange for your goods?-I gave some tea to Mitchell Sandison for wool.

4159. Did you ever sell any of your soft goods in that way?-No.

4160. It was always tea?-Yes.

4161. Is it a common thing among the knitters in your quarter to give away tea for anything you want?-Yes; for anything we can get for it.

4162. Did you ever pay for meal with it?-No.

4163. Did you ever pay your rent with it?-No.

4164. Did you ever get money for tea?-No.

4165. It was just oil and wool that you got in exchange for it?- Yes.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.

4166. You come from Sandwick parish?-Yes; from North Channerwick.

4167. Do you knit for Mr. Robert Linklater with his wool?-Yes.

4168. Are you paid in goods?-Yes,

4169. Did you ever ask for money?-Yes, once.

4170. Did you get it?-No.

4171. What did you want the money for?-I wanted it for several purposes. We might perhaps require to pay for our board if we were staying a night or two in town; and that was the purpose I wanted it for at that time.

4172. Did you want any of it for provisions to take home?-Yes.

[Page 104]

4173. Are you not content to get the goods you want in return for your hosiery?-We are not very well content sometimes.

4174. Why?-Because if we were getting the money, we might make more of it in some other shops.

4175. Did you ever get the money to make more of it?-We never got money from Mr. Linklater.

4176. But did you ever go to Lerwick with money in your pocket, and make more of it than when you came with hosiery?-Yes, often.

4177. What money was that? Had you earned it by working at other things than knitting?-Yes.

4178. How did you make more of it than you would have done by spending it in the hosiery shop?-I went to other shops where there were better articles.

4179. Where did you go?-Sometimes to Mr. George Tait's.

4180. Does he not buy hosiery?-No, he never buys hosiery.

4181. Where else did you go to?-To Mr. Thomas Nicholson.

4182. But he buys hosiery?-Sometimes; if it is very good.

4183. Tell me anything you bought at Mr. Tait's or Mr. Nicholson's which was cheaper than you would have got it for at the shops where you sold your hosiery?-It was only trifling things we bought out of their shops, because we never had money to buy things of great value from them.

4184. What were some of these trifling things?-Perhaps we were requiring neckties, or ribbons, or flowers; we might get them from them, but we scarcely ever went there to buy anything like dresses. I remember once buying a dress at Mr. George Tait's and I got a splendid bargain of it for money.

4185. Did you get it any cheaper than you would have got it from the shops where they buy hosiery?-Yes; he reduced the price because it was to be paid money.

4186. If you had offered money in Mr. Linklater's or Mr. Sinclair's shops; would you not have got the dress as cheap there?-I don't think it.

4187. Have you any reason to know that you would not?-Yes, I have reason to know that, because if we were buying anything out of their shops we would not get any reduction on the price

4188. Even although you were offering money?-Yes.

4189. Have you gone there with money?-Yes, I have gone with money, but very little. I scarcely ever go to their shops with money if I have it.

4190. Have you ever exchanged any of the goods that you got for your knitting?-No, I have never done that.

4191. You have always wanted them for your own use, or for the use of your family?-Yes.

4192. Have you taken goods from other people which they had got in exchange for their hosiery?-No.

4193. Have you known anybody who did so?-No; I cannot say any person who has done it.

4194. Is that all you came here to say?-I think a very proper thing would be that we should have a little money, if not the whole, for our knitting. It would be a good thing if we could get even the half of it in money.

4195. Did you ever try to get one-half in money?-I only asked for money once-it was a very trifling sum, only 6d.-and I was refused it.

4196. Was that when you had sold your knitting to Mr. Linklater?-No; I was knitting to him at that time with his own worsted.

4197. Did you ever sell anything that you had knitted with your own worsted?-Sometimes I would sell a little.

4198. Were you always paid in goods in the same way?-Yes, always in goods.

4199. Did you ever try to get payment of it in money?-No; because they always said they never gave money; so there was no use asking.

Mrs AGNES MALCOMSON or JOHNSTONE, examined.

4200. Do you live with your husband at Victoria Wharf, Lerwick?-Yes.

4201. Do you sometimes knit?-I do. I generally knit for myself and sell what I have made.

4202. To whom do you sell it?-I cannot mention any one of the merchants that I have sold to more than another. I sell it to any one.

4203. Do you sometimes sell to strangers?-I don't do much in that way.

4204. It is to the merchants in Lerwick that you sell principally?- Yes.

4205. And you get payment for your knitting by taking goods in the usual way?-Yes.

4206. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never get any money.

4207. Have you asked for money, and been refused?-Yes, I have asked for money to pay for the dressing of shawls. It is generally half shawls that I knit.

4208. Have you not been able to get money when you asked for it?-I once got 6d. for that purpose, or rather it was thrown at me.

4209. What do you mean by that?-I mean that it was given in that sort of way.

4210. Would you rather be paid in money than in goods for your knitting?-Yes, much rather.

4211. If you could get money, would you be content to take a rather lower price for your work?-I would indeed.

4212. What is the price of the half shawls you knit?-They vary in price according to the quality of them.

4213. What is the ordinary price you get?-I have got 28s. for a half shawl, and I have got from that down to as low as 12s.

4214. Suppose you were selling a shawl for 16s. in goods, would you be content to take 14s. if you were paid for it in cash?-Yes, I would be quite content to do with that.

4215. Why?-Because I would be able to make more of the 14s. in cash than of the 16s. in goods.

4216. How would you do that?-I would go to the ready money shops, as we call them; and I would do as much with my 14s. in cash as I would do with my 16s. in goods.

4217. Where would you go in Lerwick to make as much of 14s. in cash as the 16s. worth of goods which you would get in one of the other shops?-I don't like to mention the names of these shops publicly, but I will give them privately. [Witness gives the names of two shops.]

4218. Are there more shops than one where you could do that?- Yes; there is one shop especially, but there are others also where I could make as much of 14s. as I could of 16s. in goods.

4219. Have you tried that often?-Not very often, because I have not had it in my power; but when I could do it I tried it.

4220. Have you sometimes, when you had ready money, gone to such a shop as Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Not very often.

4221. Have you ever gone there?-Long ago, when I was young, I went there very often, but I have not gone for many years.

4222. Then you cannot tell whether you could make more of your 14s. at a shop like that, than you could at Mr Linklater's or Mr Sinclair's?-I think I would make more in Messrs. Hay's if I had the cash than I would in Mr. Linklater's.

4223. Would you often find it convenient to have the money with which to buy provisions?-Yes, a person like me who has a family would often find it to be convenient. Those of us who have our husbands earnings to live upon are not limited to that; but I have to find the most part of the clothing out of my knitting, or out of my other industry.

4224. Do you employ your time in other ways as well as in knitting?-Yes. I keep a lodger occasionally. I have two or three children at school, and a [Page 105] baby at home to attend to, besides sometimes one, and sometimes two lodgers.

4225. And it would be handy for you to have the money with which to pay school fees?-Yes.

4226. Have you ever been obliged to exchange the goods you got for money for other things you were more in want of?-No; I have never been so hard pushed as that, but I know some people who have.

4227. Were these acquaintances of your own?-Yes; I know them quite well.

4228. Have you ever taken goods from them, and given them money or provisions in exchange?-Yes; I have given a few groceries occasionally, but very few. I have also bought groceries from a knitter, such as tea, which they had taken out in exchange for their work.

4229. How did you pay for that? Did you give the woman money for it?-Yes, I gave her money to help her through for a time.

4230. What was she to do with the money?-That was no business of mine; I don't know.

4231. Did she not tell you what she was to do with it?-No; she did not say, and I did not ask.

4232. Did she come and ask you to take the tea off her hands?- Yes.

4233. Who was that?-I will give the name privately. There was more than one of them. [Witness gives two names.]

4234. Then you think it would be better for the knitters that they should be paid in cash?-Yes, it would be better for all the Lerwick knitters especially.

4235. Why for the Lerwick knitters especially?-Because they are most dependent upon their knitting, especially in the winter season.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, ROBERT MOUAT, examined.

4236. You are a blacksmith at Olnafirth Voe?-Yes.

4237. You get the principal part of your work from Messrs. Adie, and the fishermen and tenants in that district?-Yes.

4238. In dealing with Messrs. Adie, do you run an account with them?-No; I generally pay in cash for what I get in the shop.

4239. Are you aware whether the prices that you pay in cash are the same as are paid by the fishermen in the neighbourhood?-I am not quite sure about that, but I suppose so.

4240. Can you tell me the prices of any of the articles which you get from their shop? For instance, what do you pay for meal?- The meal that Messrs. Adie sell now is 1s. 5d. per peck, whereas I can get the same meal in Lerwick for 1s. 2d. now. Five months ago, when I lived in Lerwick, I could get it for 1s. 3d.

4241. What do you pay for tea?-There are three kinds of tea; we pay about 3s. 4d. per pound for one kind, about 4s. for another, and I think 3s. is about the lowest.

4242. Is there any other article that you get in any quantity in Messrs. Adie's shop?-I think these are the principal articles we get there.

4243. Do you deal for soft goods there?-A little.

4244. For boots?-No; I have not gone there for boots.

4245. What kind of soft goods do you get?-Winceys and cottons.

4246. Can you tell the prices which are charged for these things, compared with what you would get them for in Lerwick?-No.

4247. Is it commonly supposed that there is more than one price for goods at that shop? Have you heard the fishermen who settle up only once a year, complain that you get your goods cheaper than they did?-I have not heard them say so. It is not long since I went to that place, and I am not very well acquainted with the fishermen there yet.

4248. Where were you before?-I was born in Northmavine, and I was connected with the fishing there.

4249. How long is it since you ceased to fish there?-About fifteen years ago. After leaving Northmavine I came to Lerwick.

4250. Do the fishermen at Voe run an account at the store, which is settled at the end of the fishing season?-I think so.

4251. What reason have you for supposing that? Have they told you so?-They have not told me, but I have been aware of such cases since I went there.

4252. Does that mode of settlement affect you in your trade?-It affects me in this way, that I get a little more custom from the fishermen about the time when they settle, than I do during the rest of the year.

4253. Is that because they have money to pay you with?-Yes.

4254. Do you not give them credit in the rest of the year if they have work to do?-I give them some credit; but I have only been five months there.

<Adjourned>.

Lerwick: Tuesday, January 9, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM GOUDIE, examined.

4255. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness, on the property of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.

4256. Are you under any obligation, by the terms on which you hold your land, to fish for any particular fish merchant?-Yes; we are under an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce, younger of Sumburgh.

4257. Is that obligation part of a verbal contract or lease which you have with him?-It is generally known that we must not break that rule.

4258. You have no leases on the Sumburgh estate?-No; but we had an offer of a lease. The offer I had is here. [Produces paper.]

4259. The document you hand in is a printed copy of 'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate?'-Yes.

4260. When did you get it?-Last year, at settlement, so far as I remember. That would be in the spring of 1871.

4261. When is your settling time?-There is not always one settling time. Some years it is later, and some years earlier.

4262. Have you settled this year yet?-No.

4263. Was anything said to you about that paper when it was handed to you?-No; it was just handed over to me in Mr. Bruce's office.

4264. Have you signed any copy of these rules?-No.

4265. You have not accepted them as binding upon you?-No.

4266. Do you prefer to continue to hold your land year by year?- No; we should like a lease.

4267. Have you any objection to these rules?-We [Page 106] thought they were not altogether so much on our side of the leaf, as we say, as we should like.

4268. You are not going to accept them?-I don't believe we shall.

4269. But under your present tenure, as you hold your land at present, you say you are bound to deliver all your fish to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes; the fresh fish.

4270. In what way are you so bound? Did you agree to any obligation of that kind?-No; but before I became a tenant, the rule had been issued that all his tenants had to give their fish to him in a fresh state.

4271. When did you become a tenant?-About five or six years ago; and the rule was in force before I came. I have broken the rule very little so that I have not been called in question.

4272. But you took your land knowing that that was a condition of your having it?-Yes.

4273. Have you had to pay any fines for delivering any of your fish to other parties?-No, I have paid none.

4274. Do you understand that such fines are to be levied if you fail to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce?-I have not heard of any fines; but it has been reported that the tenants would be warned if they did so. I have heard that reported publicly: that they would be warned, or might be warned, on that account.

4275. Did you agree, when taking your lease that you would be liable to pay a fine if you delivered your fish to any other merchant?-No, I was never called upon to agree to that; but it was generally known that we had to give all our fish to him, fresh.

4276. Who told you that you were to give your fish to him?-That was known publicly all over the district before I became a tenant. I understood from my father and brothers and neighbours that they had had to do that, and I became a tenant on the same terms.

4277. Were your father and brothers tenants on the Sumburgh estate before you?-Yes; before I had land from Mr. Bruce.

4278. Before you took the land, were you living on the estate?-I had lived on the estate, for twenty-five years. I was born and brought up on it; then I was absent for eleven years, and then I came back to it. It was during the time I was absent that this rule came into force.

4279. Is there any obligation upon the tenants there to dispose of their cattle or other produce to any particular person?-Not so far as I know.

4280. There is no obligation upon them at all, except as to fish?- Not so far as I know.

4281. How are you paid for your fish?-We are paid so much per hundredweight of fresh fish, just as the price may be yearly. It is not always the same price.

4282. But there is one price for the whole fish of the year?-Yes, for the same kind of fish. There is one price for ling, and one price for saith.

4283. That price is fixed when?-Nearly the time when we settle. We don't know exactly what price we are to get until about that time.

4284. When is that?-It is not always in one month of the year. It has sometimes been as late as March before we settled for the fish we had caught in the previous spring. Sometimes it may have been a month earlier.

4285. Has it ever been earlier than February?-Not so far as I remember.

4286. When were the last of the fish delivered that were settled for at one of these settlements?-Last year, so far as I know, Mr. Bruce settled up for all the fish that had been weighed to him up to the time of the settlement,; at least, most of it was settled for then.

4287. That includes the small fish you catch in winter?-Yes.

4288. Are you bound to deliver them to him, the same as the large fish you get in summer?-Yes.

4289. Then it is both the haaf fishing you are speaking of just now and the small fishing in winter?-Yes. All the fish we catch where I live are ling, cod, tusk, and saith.

4290. But the fishing that you go to in summer is what you call the haaf fishing, or the summer fishing?-Yes; in a sense it is the haaf fishing, though the saith fishing is with us properly the haaf fishing. Some go farther off in bigger boats and with longer lines, and fish for ling and cod; while there are others, in smaller boats and nearer the shore, pursuing the saith fishing. That is the only difference between the kinds of fishing with us.

4291. But the obligation and the settlement for the price of the fish that you have been speaking of applies to both the haaf fishing and the fishing in the smaller boats near the shore?-It applies to all the fishing.

4292. There is no Faroe fishing there?-Some of the men go to it.

4293. But Mr. Bruce does not fit out boats for the Faroe fishing?- Not so far as I know.

4294. And you are under no obligation to him with regard to it?- No.

4295. You say you don't know of any case of fines being imposed for delivering fish to other merchants?-There is no case of that kind that I remember of.

4296. Do you know of any increase of rent being imposed upon that estate in consequence of liberty being given to fish for other merchants?-No. There was liberty asked and granted at one time, before most of those who are here were able to fish. That was under old Mr. Bruce.

4297. How long ago was that?-I don't remember the time. It was when I was a boy. Some of the other witnesses may know about it.

4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr. Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking.

4299. What do you mean by 'not strictly speaking?'-In one sense we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us. That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop.

4300. Are there other stores in the neighbourhood from which you could get your supplies as good and as cheap?-Yes. Messrs. Hay & Co. have a store near us. Some things might not be equally good, but there are other things there which are as good and as cheap.

4301. What other stores are there in your neighbourhood?-There is no store exactly near us until we come to Mr. Gavin Henderson's.

4302. How far is his shop from your place?-It is above a mile.

4303. Is Messrs. Hay's within a mile?-Yes, it is less than that.

4304. Are there fishermen in the neighbourhood of Mr. Henderson's shop, and living on Mr. Bruce's estate?-Mr. Henderson's shop is not on Mr. Bruce's property.

4305. Has he no fishermen living beyond Henderson's shop?- There are some nearly as far north on the east side, but not so far north on the west side. Mr. Bruce's property extends a little farther north on the east side than on the west side of the island, and Mr. Henderson's place is on the west side.

4306. You live on the west side of Dunrossness?-Yes, rather; but we are on the south point, so it does not much matter.

4307. But are fishermen who live nearer to Mr. Henderson's store virtually bound, in the same way as you are to deal at Mr. Bruce's store?-The whole of Mr. Bruce's tenants are on equal terms,-all in equal bondage.

4308. But are there men for whom it would be more convenient to deal at Henderson's store, as they live nearer to it?-Yes.

4309. Are they in the habit of dealing at Mr. Bruce's store for the reasons you have stated?-So far as I know, they are.

4310. The same reason of a want of credit elsewhere, [Page 107] would apply to them as to you, and compel them to go to Mr. Bruce's store?-I don't say that they don't have credit; but we cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has no profit from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able to clear that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run heavy accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our crops are a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce.

4311. That would be just as true of a man who was two miles nearer to Henderson's store than to Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.

4312. And for that reason he may find it necessary, and probably does find it necessary, to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and pass Henderson's, although it is much nearer?-Yes, he has that to do.

4313. Are you satisfied with the quality and the price of the articles which are sold at Mr. Bruce's store?-With the qualities we have no reason to grumble; with the prices we do.

4314. Is that a general feeling in the district?-It is over all, so far as I know.

4315. Have you compared the prices of any particular articles at that store with what you could get them for elsewhere?-I have compared some of them,-not many. For instance, I have tried to compare meal, to see what I lost by having it from Mr. Bruce's shop instead of from other places.

4316. What conclusion did you come to with regard to that?-I concluded in my own mind that the difference was not below 3s. on the boll of meal. It might be more, but I don't think it was less, in this way, that we have our meal weighed to us, not always, but generally, as 112 lbs. to the quarter boll.

4317. Of which store are you now speaking?-The store at Grutness, on Mr. Bruce's property. The meal is weighed at 32 lbs. to the lispund or quarter boll. Mr. Irvine, the storekeeper, told me there was a difference made when the lispunds and half-lispunds and pecks were summed up. I asked him whether there was a difference in the price between that and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll, and he said there was a difference; but I never knew what it was.

4318. Are you speaking just now of a difference in weight?- There is a difference in weight, besides the difference in price. He said he made a difference in the price on account of the short weight, but I never knew what that difference was.

4319. In what quantities do you buy your meal at Grutness store?-Sometimes in a boll, and sometimes in half a boll. Many of the men seldom get a boll, but take their meal in quarter bolls, and sometimes in an eighth of a boll, that is a peck, or 8 lbs.

4320. Is the boll you are speaking of the same as the boll by which you would buy in Lerwick, or at Hay's or at Henderson's shop?- When we get a boll unseparated, as it comes home, it is just the same, so far as I know; but when it is weighed out, 32 lbs. to the quarter boll, we are always under the impression that we lose on weight.

4321. How is that?-I cannot tell how it is.

4322. Why should there be a loss on weight if the meal is weighed out to you?-It is 32 lbs. to the quarter boll there, while in other places it is 35 lbs.

4323. Where is it 35 lbs?-In Lerwick, and, so far as I know, in Messrs. Hay's, at Dunrossness.

4324. Is the statement you are making just now, that you understand you get only 32 lbs. to the quarter boll at Grutness, while at other places you would get 35 lbs. to the quarter boll?- Yes, I make that statement; but I also say that Mr. Irvine said there was a little difference made in the price for that. He said, that when it was summed up, so many lispunds being put into the boll, there was a difference made on the price to cover the difference between 32 and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll; but I never knew what that difference was.

4325. What is the price charged at Grutness for quarter boll of 32 lbs. of meal?-It is not always one price.

4326. What is it just now?-I don't know. I only had one boll last year, and he could not tell me the price of it. I never knew the price of his meal until a neighbour who settled with him before me came back; and then I tried to enter the price of my meal according to what that neighbour said he had paid for it at settlement.

4327. Then, in point of fact, you don't know anything about the price of meal there?-He tells us the price of it when we settle.

4328. But you have had no settlement this year yet?-No.

4329. Had you a settlement last year, in the course of which you became acquainted with the price of meal?-Yes.

4330. Was it charged at the same rate throughout the year previous to your last settlement?-Yes; one year's meal is always one price.

4331. Is there never a variation in the price of meal during the year to which the settlement applies?-Not so far as I have known.

4332. Can you tell the price at which you settled for your meal at last settlement?-I don't remember exactly, but there are men present who can tell that.

4333. Have you got any account of your last settlement?-I have an account, but, not knowing that it would be called for or required, it slipped past me.

4334. Were you not cited to bring all accounts, receipts, and pass-books?-Yes. I made a careful search for that account, but I could not find it. I have some accounts here, but I could never keep an exact account of how I stood with the shop, because I did not know the prices of the goods until the time came for settlement, or until I heard the prices from a neighbour who had been settled with. I then tried to enter the value of my goods, and to post up my account, before I appeared at the settlement; but when an unlearned man like me posts up his account in that way, he has but a poor chance.

4335. But don't you get an account of your dealings at the shop at the time when you are settled with?-We don't get a copy of our shop account.

4336. Do none of the men get a copy of their account at that time?-I cannot speak for others.

4337. Have you never had a pass-book?-No.

4338. Have you never asked for one?-Not so far as I remember.

4339. Then you have perfect reliance on the honesty of those who act for Mr. Bruce in his shop?-Not exactly. I mark down the articles myself which I receive, and I have compared that account with Mr. Bruce to see if the same articles were in his account when we settled. I could not until then, or until I had heard from a neighbour a day or two before what he had paid, enter the value of my articles; but I have compared the articles themselves with him, and found the accounts run pretty straight.

4340. You have some accounts relating to previous years with you? Let me see one of them as a specimen?-[Produces small note-book]

4341. Is this account made up by yourself?-It is account kept for my own satisfaction, to let me know whether there has been anything marked against me which I have not had.

4342. This is only a memorandum: was it taken at the time when the goods were got, or was it written up from memory?-When I came home from his shop to my own house, after I had received the goods, I marked them down. I had not the book with me when I received the goods from him; but I generally mark my account after I come home, or a little time after I get to my own house. But I do not receive any copy of an account from him of his own handiwork.

4343. Then that memorandum is merely a private note of your own, made as you got the articles?-Yes.

4344. It does not contain the prices?-No; I did not know the prices when I made those entries. I put the prices against some of them when I settled, and some of them by learning the prices from neighbours when they settled, while for some articles they told me the prices when I got them.

4345. Did you find that the quantities marked in [Page 108] your private memorandum were the same as those charged against you at the shop?-Pretty nearly. There was no difference worth mentioning.

4346. What opportunity had you of comparing them? Was the account at the shop read over to you, or did you read it yourself?- I read over what I had marked down, and he saw if it was the same as what he had. When I come in to settle, Mr. Irvine asks me, 'Have you an account, William?'-I say, 'Yes,' and he says, 'Will you read it over?'-I have asked him to read the account which was in his book, but he told me to read mine. When I read my account, he says, 'Yes, yes, yes,' checking off the articles as I mention them. The last time I read over my account in this way, there was one peck of meal entered against me which was not in my own. I said I would not swear I was right, and he said he would not swear he was right.

4347. In what way are you dissatisfied with the meal which you get at Grutness?-It is 3s. a boll dearer than we can get it elsewhere, because I have compared one year's account, which I have in this memorandum-book, with the market price in Lerwick, and I find that I am inside the limits of difference when I say that it is 3s. a boll dearer at least.

4348. I see that this memorandum-book of yours contains an account for several years back?-Yes.

4349. You get the prices for the goods at the time of settlement, and mark them in your memorandum-book at the time?-Yes; or from a neighbour who had settled before me, and who knew the price of his meal.

4350. Were the whole of these entries in your memorandum-book made about the time of settlement when the thing was fresh in your memory?-Yes, I could not have made them before because I did not know the prices until then.

4351. But it was done at the time or shortly thereafter, when you remembered the prices which were charged against you at settlement?-Yes.

4352. For what year is this account [showing]?-I think for 1869.

4353. The goods were supplied in 1868 and settled for in 1869?- Yes; about February or March 1869. I cannot say to a month.

4354. And you have compared the note of prices there with the prices in the books of a merchant in Lerwick for the same time?- Yes; at least he said his books were for the same time. I looked at my book and he looked in his, and he told me what the difference was. The merchant was Mr. John Leslie, Lerwick.

4355. Was it only meal that you compared in that way?-Nothing else. I am not sure of the barley meal; but I compared the oatmeal with him.

4356. I see from the book that during that year you got 61/2 lispunds of oatmeal which are all charged at 7s. a lispund?-Yes.

4357. When did you make your comparison with Mr. Leslie?- Last night.

4358. Is there any other article you get at the store which you think could be got cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; but I could not prove these things so distinctly, as I have not compared them.

4359. What articles are there that you have that belief about?- Mostly everything.

4360. In the obligation which you understand you are under to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, are your sons and the other members of your family included?-If they fish while living on his property, they must fish to him.

4361. Have you known any cases of tenants being challenged because their sons sold their fish to other parties than Mr. Bruce?-There are no cases of that kind which I can distinctly bring before you.

4362. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the way in which matters are conducted in the fishing trade?-No; but if I have liberty here to say anything in regard to Mr. Bruce himself, I should like to be allowed to say a word. Mr. Bruce has dealt with me and many other fishermen in a most honourable and gentlemanly way. He has helped us when could not help ourselves: whether he was in the knowledge that he would profit by it or not, is not for me to say; but he has often helped us when we required it.

4363. Do you think that under the present system of dealing you have the advantage in a bad season?-I believe we have in a very bad season.

4364. If you were not obliged to deliver your fish to the landlord, I suppose he in turn would not be so ready to advance you supplies from his store when you require them and are not able to pay for them?-We believe so.

4365. Is it common for fishermen in that district to be considerably in debt at the store after a bad season?-Yes, after a bad season.

4366. Do you generally get a balance in cash at settlement time, or is it often the case that by that time you have got the whole value of your fish paid to you in goods?-Some men have usually a good bit of money to take, while others have not much, just as they have had accounts at the shop, or have had money of their own with which they could purchase goods elsewhere. Some of them may have almost the whole value of their fishing to take in cash at settlement, while others who have families to provide for, and little land, and lean crops, have often very little to get, and are very often in the landlord's debt. However, in an ordinary year, they are not back much. At the present time, so far as I know, the bulk of the men are clear, and most of them, I believe, would have money to get.

4367. Are your boys obliged to act as beach boys to Mr. Bruce's curers?-Yes.

4368. Is that part of the obligation under which you hold your land?-I did not know that by experience until last year.

4369. How did you know it then?-My boy had the offer of a certain sum to work to another man; and when I told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce, they were very angry that I should have done such a thing. Therefore, for fear I should be turned off, I did not allow my boy to take the wages which he had been offered, but kept him at home, and told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce that I would keep him. I said I know I must be obedient, and my boy will work for you if you want him.

4370. Where did that conversation take place between you and Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine?-In Mr. Bruce's office,-the month or the day of the month I cannot state.

4371. Were you sent for, or were you there to settle?-It was before we settled,-perhaps in January.

4372. Were you sent for about it?-No; I wished to know if my boy should take the wages that he had been offered.

4373. Why did you wish to know that?-Because I did not expect they would give me the same amount of wages if he acted as a beach boy. At the same time, they do not pay the boys ill; they pay them tolerably well.

4374. But why did you go to see them? Had you been told before that your boy ought not to engage except to them?-I had known that.

4375. How did you know it?-It is publicly known that the proprietor will want the boys of the tenantry to work for him.

4376. Had your boy been engaged before then?-He had wrought as a beach boy the previous year.

4377. By whom had he been offered a higher wage in that month of January?-By Messrs. Hay's man at Dunrossness.

4378. What was he to work at?-He was to work among the fish at the livers or oil, as a beach boy to Messrs. Hay.

4379. What wages was he offered for that?-10s. for the season.

4380. When you got that offer, did you go to Mr. Bruce's office to see about it?-Not immediately; it was a while after.

4381. Had you any communication from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine which led you to go to them about it?-No; but I knew that I was not safe to let him go to Messrs. Hay without telling them about it. The reason why I knew that was, because there had been a boy agreed by a man I was fishing with to go to the [Page 109] fishing, but the boy was kept back from the fishing, and the man had to look out for another boy. We had two boys and two of ourselves to make up our boat's crew; and the boy that my fellow-fisherman told me he had agreed with was kept back, and he had to go and search the parish for another to fill his place.

4382. Are cases of that kind common in the district?-Not very common, but they do happen sometimes.

4383. When you went to Mr. Bruce about that matter, did you tell him your boy had received an offer from Messrs. Hay & Co?- Yes.

4384. What was said to you?-I am scarcely prepared to state in public what was said to me.

4385. You are bound to state the truth.-I don't mind stating the truth; and if I have to go for the truth, let me go. Mr. Bruce said he did not believe that my boy had got that offer, and he was somewhat angry. I dreaded the consequences, because I might have no shelter if I went contradictory to his will, and I did not know where to go if I should be turned off.

4386. But Mr. Bruce only said he did not believe you: that was all he said?-Yes.

4387. How did he show his anger?-I saw it in his face, and I knew it by his voice and tone.

4388. Did he say anything to you about the boy?-He just said in an angry tone what I have stated. He said he did not believe he had got any such offer, and that it was all a fiction to pull money out of him.

4389. Did he say that you should not allow your boy to go?-No, he did not say that.

4390. What else did he say?-I remember nothing more that I could state.

4391. What was the end of it?-I told him I would not allow my boy to work to another man, but that while I was a tenant I had to be obedient, and I was determined to be obedient. There was no use for being troublesome and disobedient if I wished to remain a tenant, and I did not allow my boy to go until I settled. I then asked them calmly if they wanted my boy. Mr. Irvine said 'Have you not agreed your boy to another party?' I said, 'No; I have kept my word that he should not work for any other man if you required him, seeing I am a tenant.' They then agreed my boy, and he worked for Mr. Bruce that year.

4392. What wages did he get?-He has not been settled with yet. I said it was perhaps better for them to state a certain wage for him; and Mr. Bruce said that he would not have less than £3, but he did not say how much more.

4393. When a boy acts as a beach boy in that way, how are his wages paid?-Generally the boy's wages are fixed before he begins to work, but Mr. Bruce does not fix their wages until they have wrought for a season. Then the factor sees how they have wrought, and what he thinks they are worth. That, I know, has been done.

4394. But how are they paid? Is it in goods or in money?-If they don't take goods from the shop, they are paid in money at settlement.

4395. They can either take goods in their own names at the shop, or they can be paid in money at the settling time?-Yes.

4396. Is it usually the case that a separate account is opened in name of a beach boy?-Yes.

4397. What is the usual age of a beach boy?-From 12 to 14 or 15, and so on.

4398. Do you know whether, at the time of settlement, a boy has usually any balance to receive in cash?-I should think that in general they have something.4399. But is it not the practice that an account is run, and the greater part of the wages is really settled for in goods?-I could not state that exactly; because my own boy wrought to them, and he had next to nothing from them. He received his wages in money at the settlement without a grumble and without a gloom.

4400. Had he no account at all?-I think he had a pocket knife.

4401. Are the wages of a beach boy generally handed over to his parents?-So far as I know, that depends partly on the boy. Generally his wages do very little more than purchase clothes for him, and anything else he may require.

4402. Then generally the balance against him will amount to nearly the whole amount of his wages, and there will be little to get out?-I should think so; but I cannot speak positively on that point.

4403. You do not know that from your own experience?-No.

4404. Is it usual for beach boys to have got more goods supplied to them during the season than the amount of their wages at settlement?-I can say nothing about that.

4405. Have you had anything to do with taking whales on the coast?-Yes, with driving whales ashore.

4406. Have the fishermen in your quarter anything to complain of about that?-When we get the whales flinched, and the blubber brought up above high water mark, it is sold, and the third part of the money is taken by the proprietor.

4407. Do you think the fishermen are entitled to get the whole?- We think so.

4408. Who sells the oil?-There is a note sent up to Lerwick to publish the sale. An auctioneer comes down and it is generally sold on the spot, and the third part of the money is deducted.

4409. Who receives the money in the first instance? Is it the auctioneer?-I don't know; but I should say it is the landlord.

4410. He accounts to the fishermen who are interested for their share of the proceeds?-Yes.

4411. Is there any obligation to spend the money you get on these occasions in the landlord's store?-No.

4412. You can do as you like with it?-Yes.

4413. Is there anything else you have got to say?-We all believe, so far as I am aware, that liberty alone will never remedy our case. Even suppose we had liberty, yet if we have no lease of our land, the landlord can do with the land as he pleases, and render our case worse than before.

4414. Then it is a lease that you want?-Yes, a lease of a proper kind; but if the land rent can be raised to any figure the landlord thinks proper, what can a lease do for us, or what can liberty do for us. It cannot remedy our case.

4415. Then what you want is, that the landlord may be prevented from raising his rent, and from turning you out of your farms?- From raising it above measure, or above its real value. Another thing is, that I can be turned out of my land at forty days warning, after I have prepared it for winter.

4416. If you make a bargain for a lease for a certain number of years, as they do in Scotland, then you could not be turned out until that lease expired?-That is what we need, and the land let at a reasonable figure.

4417. But that must depend upon the terms of your own contract?-That may be; but the landlord sees plainly that he may not have the power of the fishing; and if he has full power to rent the land as he pleases, and can lay on the land what should come from the fishing, then that would render our case more desperate still.

4418. Do you mean that you have to pay part of your land rent from the fishing?-Our rents depend solely on the fishing. Some men may have a cow or a horse to sell, to help them to pay their rent; while there may be ten who would have nothing of the kind to sell, except their fish. On Mr. Bruce's property, so far as I am aware, the bulk of the tenants have to pay their rents from their fishing.

4419. Do you mean that your farm does not pay its own rent from the crops which it yields?-Yes; we cannot afford to sell any crop with which to pay our rent. If we were to sell the crop for that purpose, we would be deprived of what we have to live upon. The farms are very small, and we require the whole of the crops for our own use. In some years they have not been sufficient to keep us for half the year.

4420. Then the state of matters is, that you live principally by your fishing, and that your farm is an extra source of employment, or an extra means of [Page 110] living for part of the year?-Yes; some years, when there has been a good crop, it may serve us almost or altogether for the whole of the year; then the fishing pays the rent, and we may have some balance over to help us otherwise. In a poor year I have had experience of it, when our crops could only serve us for six months, and then we had to buy meal for the other six months. In that case the fishing had to do the best it could to pay both the land rent and the meal.

4421. Then your difficulty is, that you are both fishermen and farmers?-Yes; if the land was let at its real value, at what it was actually worth, and we had a lease of it, and were allowed at the same time to make the best of our fishing, we all believe that our circumstances would be improved.

4422. Suppose that were the case, there would then be no obligation upon you to deal at any shop, but you could go where you liked for your goods?-Yes; and we could make the best of our fishing at the same time.

4423. You could sell your fish to whom you pleased, making your own price?-Yes.

4424. Would it be any advantage to you to cure your own fish?- We believe it would; and we know it, because there are some of our neighbours who do it. There are people here who can speak to that.

4425. Don't you think the curing is better done when it is done upon a large scale, than when a fisherman cures his own fish upon the beach, with insufficient materials and apparatus, and perhaps not with the same skill as people who are engaged in doing that and nothing else?-With regard to the skill, none of them can show us how to cure fish better than we could do ourselves.

4426. None of whom?-None of those who now cure them, and who have the large fishings. We know how to cure them as well as they do. We see how they are curing them now, and many of us have cured fish before, so that we know quite well about it.

4427. Do you get as good a price for your fish when you cure them yourselves as when they are cured by fish-curers?-We have not had a chance to cure them ourselves.

4428. But you say you know about it by experience?-Yes. There are neighbours curing their own fish near where I live. Laurence Shewan is one.

4429. Is he a fisherman like yourself?-Yes.

4430. Does he cure his own fish?-Yes.

4431. How long has he done so?-I never remember him doing anything else. There are others who cure them besides him.

4432. Is he better off than his neighbours, in consequence of having liberty to cure his own fish?-There are other circumstances as well which doubtless render him better off, but that must improve his circumstances too.

4433. Where does he live?-At Gord. John Shewan, Scatness, also cures his own fish himself. Laurence Shewan's fish were purchased this year by Mr. Gilbert Irvine, and put into Mr. Bruce's store; and I heard Mr. Irvine say that they were very good fish.

4434. Have you ever compared with any of your neighbours their profits by curing their own fish with you own takings by selling your fish green?-I have not; but there are other witnesses present who have done so.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, examined.

4435. Are you a fisherman at Trosswick, and a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.

4436. How far is Trosswick from Toab, where William Goudie lives?-It is between two and three miles farther north.

4437. Have you heard the evidence which Goudie has given?- Yes. It is all correct, so far as I know.

4438. You have heard his description of the way in which the fish are delivered, and the way in which you hold your land, and the way in which you purchase goods at the shop at Dunrossness, and settle for them. Is that all correct?-It is.

4439. You deal in the same way with Mr. Bruce and his shopkeeper?-Yes. I have very little concern with the store at Grutness, because Mr. Bruce has another store at the place where I deliver my fish, which is called Voe.

4440. What is the shopkeeper's name there?-Henry Isbister.

4441. Is that shop near Boddam?-Yes, it is just at Boddam.

4442. Is that store managed in much the same way Goudie has described with regard to the store at Grutness?-No, not exactly in the same way. Most of the things which are kept there are much the same as in other places.

4443. Do you mean that the quality of the goods is the same?- Yes, it is much the same as elsewhere.

4444. And you don't complain of the prices there?-No, not of the things that I deal in myself.

4445. What are these-meal and tea?-No; I deal very little in these things there, because it has pleased God that I could mend myself in another way.

4446. In what way?-By going to another store.

4447. Then you are not obliged to deal with that store at all?-No, I am not obliged to go to that store unless I like.

4448. Is that because you have ready money with which to buy at another store?-Exactly.

4449. You have always got some money in your hands?-Yes.

4450. Do you sometimes buy in Lerwick?-Yes.

4451. But you also buy at Mr. Bruce's store at Voe?-Yes; some trifling things, such as rope or iron hoop, or the like of that; and these are sold at much the same prices there as I can get them for at other places.

4452. Do you pay for them in ready money?-No.

4453. They are put into your account and settled for at the end of the year?-Yes.

4454. Where do you get your provisions?-I get them sometimes at Gavin Henderson's, and sometimes at Lerwick.

4455. What do you pay for meal by the boll at Henderson's?-I could not exactly say, because I don't have to run an account for that. Generally I pay for it at once.

4456. Then, at settling time with Mr Bruce, do you generally get a large balance in cash?-Whether it is large or small, I get it in cash at the beginning of the year, at the settling time.

4457. Do you sometimes get advances in the course of the year while the fishing is going on?-Sometimes I do, if I require them.

4458. Have you often asked for advances of that kind?-I have.

4459. Have they ever been refused?-Never. I always got them when I had money coming to me.

4460. Do you mean that you always got them when he was due you money?-Yes. Sometimes, even if he had been due me a little money, he might not perhaps have had money beside him to supply me with; but when he had it I always got it, whether I had it to get or not.

4461. What has been the amount of money due to you for fish during the last two or three years?-I have a few receipts here which will show that. [Produces accounts.]

4462. This account [showing] is for 1870; and it contains rent, £6; roads, 4s. 6d.; poor-rate, 9s.: is that the tenant's half?-Yes.

4463. Then there is a charge, 'To share of rent of hill:' is that the scattald which you hold along with your neighbours?-Yes; and which the neighbouring landlord is not taking a rent for at all. It all runs scattald together.

4464. Is the neighbouring landlord Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.

4465. On his land, does the rent of the scattald come [Page 111] into the rent of the farms?-There is no rent paid for the scattald at all on his land. It is used in the same way by all the tenants.

4466. When was the additional payment charged against you first for scattald?-Two years ago.

4467. Then there is cash for kirk seats, 3s.: why do you pay your kirk seats through your landlord?-I have paid them all along through him.

4468. Then there is-To account in Boddam shop, 18s. 61/2d.; to account in Grutness shop, 1s. 9d.; and then on April 25, by cash, £6, 14s. 7d.: that shows that you had not settled until April 25th?- Yes.

4469. Are you often as late as that in settling?-No; that was the latest I ever knew.

4470. Was it your fault that the settlement was so late?-No; I should have liked to have settled sooner.

4471. Do you know any reason why you could not have settled sooner, even in November, when the fishing was over?-I don't know any reason for that, except that they did not want to do it. That is the only way in which I can account for it.

4472. Have you asked for a settlement to be made with you at that time?-I have not; because I thought there was no use doing it.

4473. There are entries here-by saith, by ling, by cod: were these for small fish caught during the winter?-There was a company of men who were pursuing the herring fishing; one part of the company were trying to prosecute the saith fishing for a time, until the others saw whether there were any herring to be got, and my proportion was one-twelfth share of the fish caught at the time.

4474. That was an extra thing altogether?-Yes; and each man's proportion was put in his account.

4475. Is the amount of cash paid you, £6, 14s. 7d., a usual sort of sum for you to get at settlement?-No; it is sometimes smaller. Sometimes it is nothing at all, and I have been in debt.

4476. Has that happened often?-Yes, it happened frequently for some years before that. I have no accounts for these years.

4477. I see that in 1865 there is marked a balance of £2, 1s. 5d. Was that a balance which was due by you the year before?-Yes.

4478. Then 1864 had been a bad year, and Mr. Bruce had advanced you money above the price of your fish for that year?- Yes.

4479. Was that money advanced to you after settlement?-No; it was a balance that had been carried over some years before.

4480. When that balance was existing, did you consider yourself obliged to deal in Mr. Bruce's shop rather than at another?-I was obliged so far to deal at his shop, because I could not think of going to another man and asking credit from him, when I saw no way of making provision to pay him. I could not expect any man to supply me in my necessity when I had no possible way of repaying him.

4481. But you were already in Mr. Bruce's debt?-Yes, at that time I was.

4482. Would you have been bound by that, supposing you had not been bound by the terms on which you held your land, to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, and to deal at his store?-No, I don't believe I would, if I had been at liberty to deal elsewhere at any other time.

4483. Have you ever paid any fines or liberty money for yourself or for any of your family?-None whatever.

4484. Have you understood that you were liable to pay such fines?-I understood that I was liable to pay a fine or to receive a warning if I did not fish for my landlord.

4485. But would you have been liable to pay anything besides being afraid of being removed?-I don't know anything about that.

4486. In 1865 you had got cash advances to the amount of £10, 7s. 2d., and your account at Mr. Bruce's store that year was only about 30s?-Yes.

4487. I suppose in that state of matters, you are pretty well content with the state of things as they are?-I might be well enough content with the state of things as they are, only I am bound to fish for him alone, and for no other man.

4488. But you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't believe he compels any man to be bound to his store entirely.

4489. Is there really any compulsion, either direct or indirect, to deal at his store?-No; not so far as I know.

4490. Even although you are in his debt, you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't believe he would oblige me to do that.

4491. But you have as much credit to deal at another man's store as at his,-I mean you get an account opened as readily at another man's store as at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.

4492. When you are in debt to Mr. Bruce, is it as easy for you to open an account at Mr. Henderson's store, and to get goods on credit there, as to get goods Mr. Bruce's shop?-I might find it as easy, only I don't know whether Mr. Henderson would be inclined to give it to me.

4493. Do you think Mr. Henderson would not be as willing to give it to you as Mr. Bruce's man at Voe?-I think he would not, if he saw no way by which I was likely to pay him.

4494. Mr. Henderson, I understand, does not buy fish?-He does.

4495. But he knows that you would not be at liberty to sell your fish to him?-Yes, he knows that.

4496. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if you were selling them to him?-I don't believe I would get any worse.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined.

4497. You are a fisherman at Dunrossness?-I am.

4498. Have you a piece of ground of your own?-I am not a landholder. I live with my sister and brother-in-law.

4499. I have received a letter from Dunrossness, dated 30th December and signed Henry Gilbertson: was that letter written by you?-No. There is another person of that name living at Dunrossness.

4500. How do you distinguish yourself from him?-I am a fisherman, and he is a tailor.

4501. Is he a relation of yours?-He is my cousin.

4502. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie to-day: do you know from your own experience that it is in the main correct?-So far as my experience goes, I could not say that he has deviated a single word from the truth.

4503. Were you, when young, employed as a beach boy?-No. I would not go, because if they had bound me to that, I would have left the island, as I did.

4504. Did you leave in order to avoid being employed as a beach boy?-It was not exactly for that; but I was past being a beach boy before Mr. Bruce took the fishing.

4505. You have now come back there, and employ yourself as a fisherman in Mr. Bruce's boats?-Yes.

4506. Are you settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; in the same way as the landholders are settled with.

4507. Do you run an account at the store in the same way, also?- Yes, sometimes; but I am under no obligation to do so, because I am a man who can get credit at any place.

4508. Do you consider yourself at liberty to fish for any person you please to engage with?-Not at all. Although I sit as a lodger in my brother-in-law's house, I am under the same obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce as one who is a landholder.

4509. How is that?-Because if I did not do so, my brother-in-law would be warned out for my offence.

4510. How do you know that?-Because I have evidence to prove it in the case of a brother of my brother-in-law's, who dried a few hundredweight of fish for himself, and for that offence his father was warned out, and had to pay a fine of 31s. 6d. before he got liberty to sit.

[Page 112]

4511. What was his name?-James Harper, sen.

4512. Was that long ago?-Six or seven years ago. I could not say exactly to a season back or forward.

4513. Did you know of that case at the time from Harper himself?-Yes, I was acquainted with the circumstance, and the day before I came here the man told me he had to pay the money.

4514. So that has served you as a warning, since you came back to live with your brother-in-law, that you must fish to Mr. Bruce?- Yes.

4515. Do you think you would be better off if you were at liberty to deliver your fish to any merchant you liked?-I would.

4516. In what way?-Because I could make more of them.

4517. Would you get a larger price for your fish?-Yes. I would perhaps get a larger price; but then I would have a great advantage too by curing them for myself.

4518. Do you think that would really be a great advantage?- Decidedly; and I can prove it by the case of a man who has prosecuted the fishing with me this very season, Laurence Leslie. I was one of the crew with him.

4519. Don't you think he was particularly fortunate last year, and that very often your fish might be spoiled in curing, and would not bring so good a price?-We have all cured our fish before, and we never lost anything worth speaking of in that way.

4520. Where have you cured your fish before?-In the same place where I now live.

4521. Was that before these restrictions were laid upon the tenantry?-Yes; one year before and one year since the restrictions were laid on.

4522. Then you have done it since without being challenged?- Yes; but it was by their own good-will that they allowed me to do it.

4523. You had some favour shown you?-Yes.

4524. How did that happen?-They just told me they would not disturb me, as I was a young man, and could either stop or go as I thought fit.

4525. If you had been a tenant, you think you would not have had the same liberty?-No, I would not.

4526. You say you can get the same credit at any other store that you can get at Mr. Bruce's: do you mean that you can open an account and get your things without paying for them until the end of the season?-Yes.

4527. Can you do so at Gavin Henderson's store, for instance?- Yes; or in Lerwick.

4528. But does the merchant with whom you would open an account of that sort not know that you fish for Mr. Bruce, that you are bound to deliver all your fish to him, and that you may at the same time be running an account at his shop which would have a preference at settlement over any account you might open in Lerwick or at Henderson's?-I generally give them to understand how I am circumstanced, and they advance me accordingly.

4529. Do you generally have a large balance in cash to receive when settling with Mr. Bruce?-I have only prosecuted the fishing there for three years; I have settled for two of these years, and for this one I have not settled yet.

4530. Do you get an account when you settle with him?-Yes; I have got a copy of it for one year. [Produces it.]

4531. Do you get that as a matter of course when you are settling with Mr. Bruce?-I asked for it, and he did not refuse to give it to me.

4532. This account is for the settlement which took place in April last?-Yes.

4533. It shows-June 27, 1870, to cash for self, £1; Sept. 16, to cash for self, £1; Dec. 22, to amount to credit of Paul Smith: what does that mean?-It was a small sum I advanced a brother-in-law of mine to help him to pay his rent. It was entered from my account into his, and was the same as cash.

4534. Jan. 6, to cash for self, 10s.; to fine for swine, 2s. 6d.: what was that fine for?-The landlord has a law that if you allow your swine to go at large, and the officer for that purpose catches them outside your house loose, he imposes a fine of 2s. 6d. upon you for each offence.

4535. Is that law in the regulations of lease, or is it just an understood thing?-It is understood to be a law that he has made.

4536. But you are not a landholder?-No; but the swine belonged to me.

4537. Then there is, to a ticket and medal for 1871, 3s.: that is for the Fishermen's Society?-Yes.

4538. March 15, to account per Henry Gilbertson, 3s. 4d.: what was that?-That was a small balance that was advanced by him for me to the other Henry Gilbertson.

4539. To 11/2 bushels salt from Scatness, 1s. 6d., by amount from boat's account, £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the amount of your earnings?-Yes.

4540. How many others were there in the boat?-There were six.

4541. Then, to account in Grutness, £3, 8s. 21/2d., to cash, £10, 15s. 81/2d.; in all £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the whole of your account for that year?-Yes.

4542. Have you anything to say about the prices of the things you get at Grutness store?-They are rather above the figure usually paid for the same things in other parts of the country.

4543. Have you compared the prices there with the prices at which you can get the same articles elsewhere?-Yes; for instance of meal.

4544. Have you bought meal there?-Yes.

4545. Was it entered in the account you have shown me?-Yes; but all my account at the shop, whatever it was for, was entered in that account in one slump sum, so that the price cannot be distinguished from that. There are no details given there of the shop account.

4546. Were the details of that account read over to you?-Yes; or I read it over.

4547. Did you find it to be correct?-Yes, generally.

4548. But you think the meal was charged higher than it could be got for elsewhere?-I am sure of it.

4549. Do you remember what price it was charged at?-Yes.

4550. Did you take a note of it at the time?-I took a note of the quantity at the time; but I did not know the price until settlement.

4551. Have you a pass-book at the store?-[Produces pass-book.] That is what I keep for myself. These [showing] are the entries for 1870, the year to which the account applies. When I knew the price of an article when I received it from the store, I put it down in ink; but I did not know the price of the meal, and I put it down in pencil when I came to settle.

4552. Here [showing] is half boll oatmeal, 11s?-Yes; and these are the ranging prices in Lerwick for the same year: March 1870, per boll oatmeal, 17s. 9d. May, 18s. 6d.; July, 20s.; August, 21s.

4553. Where did you get these?-I got them from a merchant in Lerwick this morning, Mr. John Robertson, sen. The note containing them is in his own handwriting.

4554. Did he refer to his books before telling you what the prices were?-Yes, he turned up his accounts for that year.

4555. And these are the prices at which he told you he sold meal here?-Yes.

4556. For cash or for credit?-I cannot say.

4557. Have you ever been directed by Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine to look after men who were supposed to be selling their fish to other curers?-I have.

4558. You shake your head in a very serious way at that: did you not like the job?-I did not.

4559. When was it that you were told to do that?-At last settlement.

4560. That would be in April 1870?-Yes.

4561. Were there some men who were supposed to be inclined to sell their fish to some others?-Yes.

4562. Was any particular man named to you, or was it just a general direction to look after them?-There was just a general direction given to us to inform them of any men who did so.

[Page 113]

4563. Did you keep a lookout for that?-No; I have not gone to look yet.

4564. Have you seen any of the men endeavouring to sell their fish to other people-to Messrs. Hay & Co. for instance, or to Mr. Gavin Henderson?-I have seen them selling to Messrs. Hay & Co.

4565. Were these the small fish caught in the winter, or were they part of the catch of the boats that went to the summer fishing and the haaf fishing?-They were the small fish caught in the winter. I never saw any of the summer fish sold by any of Mr. Bruce's tenants to Messrs. Hay & Co.

4566. I suppose there is a greater inclination to sell the small fish caught in the winter for ready money than the summer fish?-Yes.

4567. Why are the men readier to do that?-Because, when they sell their fish to Messrs. Hay & Co., the merchant knows what he intends to give for them; and daily and nightly, when the fish have been delivered, they go to Hay & Co.'s store and get the value for them, and there is no more about it.

4568. They settle for them at once?-Yes,

4569. In money or in goods?-Generally in goods; but Messrs. Hay's man will give them a shilling or so; whereas, if they had to go to Mr. Bruce's store with them, they would not know what they were to get until the settlement, neither would they get the goods at so low a figure.

4570. They get the goods cheaper at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes, a little.

4571. Is there any other article than meal the price of which you have compared with what it could be got for at other stores?-Not particularly, because I have not had much dealings at the store, as I generally dealt with other merchants.

4572. Is there anything else you wish to add to what you have said or to what the other men have said?-Nothing particular.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN HARPER, examined.

4573. Are you a fisherman at Lingord, Dunrossness?-I am.

4574. Do you hold land there under Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?- Yes.

4575. Do you hold it subject to the condition of delivering your fish to Mr. Bruce in the same way that the other men have spoken to?-Yes.

4576. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, Laurence Smith, and Henry Gilbertson?-Yes.

4577. Have they described correctly the way in which you deal at Mr. Bruce's shop for goods?-Quite correctly, so far as my experience goes.

4578. Do you deal in the same way?-Yes; but I deal very little there.

4579. Where do you get your goods?-I get them at different places, but my chief dealings are at Gavin Henderson's. I have also some dealings at Mr. Bruce's store at Boddam, kept by Henry Isbister, which is close beside where I live.

4580. Do you generally receive a large balance at the end of the year in cash?-Yes, I am always paid in cash.

4581. How much of a balance in cash did you get last year?-I cannot remember exactly; and I have no copy of my account.

4582. Was it £5 or £6, or more?-I think it was £5 or £6, and the rest of my earnings went to pay my land rent and shop accounts.

4583. Have you made any comparison as to the prices of goods at the Boddam shop and the prices at which you could get them elsewhere?-I have not made a strict comparison, but the Boddam shop and the other shops do not differ much in most things.

4584. Have you anything to add to what has been said by the other witnesses?-We would be very happy to have the liberty of curing our fish ourselves.

4585. Have you tried that?-Yes; I have tried it in former times before I was taken under Mr. Bruce.

4586. Where was that?-At the same place where I am fishing yet.

4587. You had your liberty then?-Yes.

4588. Do you think that in those days you made a larger profit on your fish than you do now?-I did; but there would be a difficulty in doing that now, unless we had the power of using the beaches to dry our fish on. If we did not have that power, we could make nothing of it at all

4589. In those days the price of fish would be quite different from what it is now? It would be much lower when you used to cure your own fish?-In the former part of the time when I used to cure them it was lower than it is now, and indeed it was rather lower all through. I don't know exactly what those that cured their own fish this year have got for dried fish, but I think I got 10s. 6d. per cwt. of dried saith of my own curing during the last year when I cured them.

4590. What is the price now for cured fish?-I have heard that it is 12s.

4591. I suppose there was not much difference in those days in the price of cured fish?-No; but it did differ according to seasons. Every season was not exactly alike.

4592. Would that be twelve years ago?-Yes.

4593. In what way have you calculated that you would make more profit upon the fish of your own curing than is paid to you by Mr. Bruce?-I have just made a calculation in my own mind according to the quantity of fish I caught then and what I catch now. It is merely a calculation of my own, and I do not say it is exactly correct.

4594. Did you make that calculation lately?-No; only I have always been of that opinion since I was obliged to deliver my fish to Mr. Bruce.

4595. Have you not made a note of the value of your green fish, the expense of materials for curing, and the value of the labour that you would require to put upon them, in order to ascertain whether you would get as much for your cured fish as you do for your green, or more?-I have paid some attention to that matter; but of course, in any case where a man dries his fish for himself, he must expect to have a little more work than he has when delivering them green. There would thus be extra expense for my own labour.

4596. There would also be the price for salt, and other things required, in the curing?-Yes; we would have to calculate all these things.

4597. Would you not be at a disadvantage from not having vats and other apparatus suitable for curing?-There would be rather a disadvantage in that way now, but there was not such a disadvantage formerly, because we had these things; and when we were stopped from curing for ourselves, we had to dispose of them as we had no use for them.

4598. Did each fisherman commonly possess these things?-Yes, at that time.

4599. Or was it each boat's crew who owned these implements?- Yes.

4600. Each boat's crew had a supply of apparatus for curing their fishing?-Yes, for their own use. They generally had a vat and other instruments according to what they required.

4601. Do you think they were as skilful in the use of these instruments as the curers are now?-I don't think they were very much behind, because the curer who cures the fish we catch now was formerly a fisherman, as I am myself. Further than the experience of years may have taught him, he knew nothing better about it than I did, for I cured fish when I was a beach boy, and I was also the head in it all through, until I was stopped from curing.

4602. In forming that opinion with regard to the profit which you would have by curing your own fish, have you taken into account the risk of having your own fish spoiled in the curing?-Of course we must run that risk.

4603. Then you might gain something in one year, but in another you might lose to some extent in the [Page 114] curing?-That is quite possible; but still, in the experience I formerly had, the loss was nothing to speak of.

4604. For how many years did you cure your own fish?-For a good many, perhaps five years. There is one thing I should like to state which has not been mentioned already; but I don't exactly know how far it will fall within your inquiry. That is about the days' works which are required from us in addition to our land rent.

4605. What do you mean by days' works?-It is labour imposed upon the tenants by the landlord. They must work three days' work in summer. We don't exactly work these days' works in summer where we live; but we are bound to carry a boat of peats to those who live near Sumburgh, which stands in place of our three days in summer. Then we have to work three days in harvest, and three days in vore (<i.e.> spring). Thirty hours, if I remember right, is what they exact; and we get nothing for it, not even a supply of victuals. We have to carry our victuals with us when we are to do our work there.

4606. Is not that really part of the rent which you pay for your land?-We don't suppose so, because our land is valued, and we have to pay for it in cash, or it is taken off our account.

4607. You mean that you have to pay your rent in cash, and to give the days' works besides?-Yes; and we have to pay a poultry fowl for each merk of land.

4608. Is not that really just part of your bargain for the land?-It is the way we have done hitherto.

4609. If you were agreed, would not the landlord commute these services and payments into a money payment. You might make a bargain to give him so much money, and thus get rid of these things?-I have never disputed these things; but I believe they have been spoken of to him, and he does not appear willing to relieve us of the burden, which we think is rather hard one.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE LESLIE, examined.

4610. Are you a fisherman and tenant under Mr. Bruce at Mill of Garth, Dunrossness?-I am a fisherman, but not exactly a tenant.

4611. You don't hold land?-It is much the same. The land is held in my father's name, and I live with him.

4612. Are you bound to fish to Mr. Bruce, as being one of your father's family?-Yes.

4613. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and the other witnesses from Dunrossness. Do you think it is generally correct?-I think it is generally correct; but Laurence Smith did not appear to know much about the shop at Boddam, except for ropes and iron, and so on, which is much about the same price as elsewhere.

4614. Can you say anything more about that shop than he did?- The tea, cotton, canvas, and moleskins are all much higher there than at Henderson's. I have no note of the price at Henderson's; but I have notes of the prices at Boddam in my pass-books.

4615. What is the price of moleskins at the Boddam shop?-I don't know if I have the price of any moleskins here.

4616. Is this [showing] your pass-book at the Boddam store?- Yes.

4617. Is it kept by the shopkeeper there?-It is kept by Isbister. I took it back and forward every time I got goods, and had them entered there. That book is for 1868.

4618. I see it is for Hans Leslie, and not for George Leslie. Is your father's name Hans?-Yes.

4619. This book only comes down to February 1869. Have you not kept a pass-book since then?-Yes; but it is not settled yet.

4620. Is that account from March 1867 to February 1869 [showing] not settled?-Yes, it is settled; but the account for 1870 is not settled yet. I have it in another pass-book, because this one had fallen aside.

4621. And you have now another one in the hands of the shopkeeper?-Yes.

4622. Do you know the prices which were charged against you for goods in 1870?-No. I have seen them in the pass-book when I had it at home; but don't remember what they were.

4623. But the settlement for 1870 is past?-Yes; it was 1871 I was thinking of.

4624. But there is nothing in this book for 1870?-No. This [producing another book] is the book for 1870 up till the settlement of 1871.

4625. Have you no pass-book in your possession later than that?- No.

4626. Show me some of the things in that book which are charged higher to you than you could have got them elsewhere?-I say that tea and cotton are generally charged higher. I have had very little cotton from that shop, but I have asked the prices, and found them much higher than at Henderson's, so that I took what cotton I wanted from Henderson's shop, and not from the shop at Boddam.

4627. Were you quite at liberty to deal at Henderson's shop if you liked?-Yes; we were at liberty in the way that some of the other men have described. If we did not have the prospect of paying what we were due, then we did not want to run into debt to a number of men.

4628. Have you generally ready money that you can go to Henderson's with?-No.

4629. What is the reason of that? Is it on account of the long settlement?-That is a thing which has something to do with it, and sometimes I have not had money to get at settlement; but when I asked for an advance from Mr. Bruce, I always got it.

4630. I see from this book that cotton is 1s. a yard at the Boddam shop: I suppose that was the price then?-It has sometimes been 1s., and it has sometimes been higher.

4631. I see there is tea at 10d. a quarter: is that the best tea they sell at that store?-They seldom have any but one sort.

4632. Do you generally get all the articles you want at the Boddam shop?-Yes.