NOTES 1. (continued 26)

10,077. But, I presume, you very often do purchase either privately or at these sales, cattle from some of your debtors, and enter them in your account?-Very often. A great many of the cattle purchased at the sales are not paid for until I settle with the men in my district. Some men-not tenants of ours at all, but tenants of Lord Zetland-have been asked to come and take the money after the sale, but have said, 'I am not at all requiring it just now; I only want my money once a year.' They have said that to me more than once this year, so that I could not get clear of the money for the cattle which I bought.

10,078. Were these men running an account with you?-Very little. They come perhaps once a month and see how the account stands, and get perhaps a pound or so in cash.

10,079. A statement was made in Edinburgh to the effect that when a merchant bought a beast from some of his debtors in that way, he had really the fixing of the price himself?-That is a very serious mistake; I must say that twenty years ago that was the case, but I think the first break to that in the North Isles was, as I have already said, my commencing a cattle sale. The very year I commenced the cattle sale, as I can prove by documentary evidence, the price of cattle rose fully one-fourth, and ever since there has been an auctioneer appointed to conduct the sales in Yell and in Unst. I have invariably told every tenant in my district, that if they could do any better with any produce-such as butter, eggs, cows, or fish-than by bringing them to me, they were quite at liberty to do so. I said that to them over and over again.

10,080. Why did you tell them that so often?-Because I had an opportunity of telling it to them every time they came with their produce and asked the price. A man might come with a jar of butter one day, another jar a few days afterwards.

10,081. But did they not know without being told, that they might go where they thought they could get a better price?-I thought they did; but they might [Page 245] think that as we stood in the relation to them of landlord, as well as fish-curer and merchant, we might force them in some way; and I wanted to do away with that impression, both as to the fishing and as to the purchase of produce, because, whatever control we might have had the power of exercising over them, we did not wish it to be exercised, or to have it felt that there was such a power in our hands.

10,082. In point of fact, I suppose that by far the greater number of the fishermen in this island sell their fish to you?-Yes. There is only one boat that does not fish for us-Mr. John Johnston's.

10,083. Are there not some of the crews at the winter fishing who do not fish for you?-I cannot speak so well about the winter fishing, because it is carried on in small boats, and the men take their fish anywhere they like.

10,084. Do they sell their winter fish to you for ready money?- Yes, for ready money, or for goods if they want them, whichever they like. We buy in North Yell just now all winter, and pay the cash just as the men want it, or give them goods.

10,085. There is no Faroe fishing carried on by your firm?-No.

10,086. About how many tenants are there altogether on the estate that you hold in tack on this island?-I think about 150.

10,087. About how many of them are engaged in fishing in your boats?-The whole of them, I think, who do fish for us.

10,088. Do you buy a large quantity of kelp?-I buy almost all that is bought in the islands.

10,089. How many women are employed at that?-They vary very much, because they just do it as they like themselves.

10,090. Is there a separate rent charged in your lease for the kelp shores?-It is included in the whole rent.

10,091. Do you pay a higher rent to Major Cameron under your lease than you receive from the fishermen?-Yes; we pay about £200 more than we receive, but that is for the scattalds and kelp shores, which the tenants have the use of on certain conditions.

10,092. Do you think the scattalds and kelp shores alone are worth that increased rent?-I have often wished that we had never entered into that lease, but when we have entered into it we must try to make the best of it.

10,093. Then you think the scattalds and kelp shores are not worth so much?-They might be worth that if they were taken from the tenants and developed into sheep-walks, but they are not worth that to us.

10,094. Have you not the power of making them into sheep-walks for yourselves?-Yes; but we have not done so.

10,095. The tenants still have the use of them upon certain conditions?-Yes.

10,096. Do they largely avail themselves of that right upon making that payment?-I am sorry to say that we lose about £100 a year by them.

10,097. Do you mean that you do not collect £100 a year which you are entitled to?-I say that when we have charged every tenant under us the full amount of scattald charges, we are £100 short of the rent under the lease, as our books will show.

10,098. Is that loss upon the rents and scattald charges, or upon the scattald charges only?-It is upon the rents and the scattald united. In short, we charge the tenants £1000 for rent and scattald charges, and we pay Major Cameron £1100.

10,099. The kelp is gathered by the women upon these shores and burned by them, and bought by you at so much per ton?-Yes.

10,100. Is the settlement for the kelp generally managed by way of accounts in your books in each woman's name?-No. They generally settled with at the time when they bring the kelp. We may have supplied them with meal or other necessaries while they were preparing the kelp, but as soon as they have prepared the settlement is at once made.

10,101. These supplies are entered in a ledger account under the woman's name during the time the kelp is being prepared?-Yes.

10,102. And then the amount of kelp is entered at the close of that account as settling it?-Yes.

10,103. How many women are so employed?-Perhaps about 120 or 130. I think we have made about 40 tons of kelp from Unst, but we get a good deal from Yell too I think about 20 tons.

10,104. Does the number of women you have given include those in Yell?-No; I think there may be about that number in Unst.

10,105. What price per cwt. do you pay for the kelp?-It is 4s. this year.

10,106. Is it the same price, whether paid in goods or in cash?- There used to be a practice of giving from 4d. to 6d. less in cash than in goods. The reason for that was, that the price allowed was generally the extreme value of the article; but for the last two years we have got 5s. per ton more for kelp, and we have made no difference on the price to the women whether it was taken in cash or in goods. That was the case more especially last year. Almost all that we got from Yell was paid in cash, and paid at the same rate of 4s.

10,107. Did the women take the price in cash or in goods?-They took it almost all in goods, except those from Yell. They could only come over at times when they had about a ton or two ready, and they took back what goods they wanted, and the balance in cash.

10,108. How do you arrange with your beach boys?-We have one man engaged who cures for us by the ton. He finds the hands; we do not employ them.

10,109. You do all your curing by contract?-Yes.

10,110. And you have nothing to do with the payment of the persons employed at it?-I often pay them when the man who has the contract gives me an order to pay. He gives them a line to me to pay them so much and I do so.

10,111. Is that payment made at the shop at Uyea Sound?-Yes,

10,112. Is it made in goods or in cash?-It is just as the case may be. Of course, if the man has taken anything it is deducted; but if he has not taken anything he gets his cash.

10,113. Have the people who are employed in the curing got accounts in your books in their own names?-Yes.

10,114. Do you mean the men employed under the contractor?- Yes; they have their own accounts.

10,115. Do you know how much wages they receive from the contractor?-Not until he gives me an order at the end of the season, and then they are paid. They are paid as soon as the work is over.

10,116. But during the season they are running an account in your books and getting supplies?-Yes, but to as limited an extent as possible. We don't like to give them goods; we rather like to give them money at the end of the season, because if we are liberal in that way, they generally overdraw their accounts.

10,117. But the line you speak of, which you receive from the contractor, is only given at the end of the season?-Yes.

10,118. He does not give them lines when they want supplies?- No.

10,119. Why does he not pay them himself?-At one time, some years ago, I used to give the curer cash to pay his men; but I found I was minus any advances I had given to them in the course of the season, because they did not come back to square up when they got their cash, and yet it was necessary for me to give them some things in order to let the work go on.

10,120. Could you not leave it to the contractor to make these advances?-It is quite optional. There is nothing compulsory in this arrangement at all.

10,121. The men don't need to come to your shop for the advances unless they like?-Not at all. I don't want them; I would as soon pay them in money as goods.

10,122. And the contractor could do so?-Yes. He does so in some cases. I suppose those who bring orders to me are those who want it in that way. Very likely the contractor pays some that I never see at all.

[Page 246]

10,123. Do you suppose that the whole payments he makes are not made through you?-I don't know that they are. There is no arrangement to that effect.

10,124. What is the contract price per ton for curing?-16s., and we supply the implements and materials, and the beach. That is just for his work, putting them from the shores to the beach; and we take them from there to the shipping port.

10,125. In settling with your fishermen, what allowance do you make for the cost of curing the fish per ton of dry fish?-We deduct that from the price we have got for the fish, in estimating what we are to pay our fishermen. That sum includes expense of curing, cost of salt and materials, and removing the fish to the port

where they are to be delivered.

10,126. What other deductions do you make before fixing the sum that is to be divided between you and the fishermen?-We generally make no other deductions. We expect that the £3 should cover everything but I don't know that it does so now, because wages are much higher than they used to be.

10,127. What was the current price paid to fishermen here last year?-8s.

10,128. What was the price of dry fish per ton?-The current price was £23.

10,129. Deducting £3, that would leave £20: was that the sum on which you calculated the division between you and the fishermen?-Yes.

10,130. How do you calculate the price for the green fish?-We calculate 21/4 cwt. of green fish for 1 cwt. dry.

10,131. That would only be 18s. per cwt?-Yes; but we give skipper's fees, and a great deal of perquisites to the crew, which will come to another shilling. The men have lines of their own, and the skipper always gets a fee.

10,132. Then the 2s. extra is intended to cover that?-Yes, and our profit.

10,133. Do you allow yourselves a commission?-Yes; and I think we require it. The hire we take for the boat never covers the price of the boat. I may say that, in my experience, boats which originally cost £20 stand us in £32 when they are worn out, after we have got credit for all the hires charged on them. There is therefore a considerable loss on boats. The hire cannot nearly meet current expenses, much less pay for the original price.

10,134. How do you mean that the boat stood you in £32?-I give sails every second year, and a new sail costs about £2, 10s. Then there is the carpenter's work every year in repairing the boat, and there are oars and everything to be kept up. Taking these things into consideration, the result of the debtor and creditor account of some our boats was that they cost £20 originally, and when worn out they had cost £32.

10,135. What was the hire of these boats?-48s. a year-8s. a man. That was credited to the boat.

10,136. What is the life of a boat?-It is sometimes only a year.

10,137. But that is when she is lost?-No; we sometimes build what appears to be a very good boat, and the carpenter says she is first-class; but when the fishermen take her to sea they find she is very bad, and they throw her on our hands, and we cannot use her.

10,138. Does that often happen?-Very often.

10,139. Then the hiring of boats is a very unprofitable business?- It is; indeed I should be very glad if the fishermen would buy their own boats; and if the Government would assist them in that, it would be a very good thing. The life of a good boat may be about twelve years.

10,140. Is it not an exceptional case where the boat is thrown up at the end of the year?-No, it is very common at the end of one year or two years.

10,141. But when a boat is a good one at first, and pleases the fishermen, she is calculated to last for twelve years?-Yes, and she may last a little longer with increased repairs.

10,142. And the calculation that a boat when worn out costs you £32 is based upon the supposition that she does last for about that period?-Yes; but the £32 is perhaps an exceptional case: that was the highest I ever had in my experience.

10,143. Is the current price of fish according to which you pay your men ascertained by communication with other merchants in Shetland, or is it the actual price, which you get upon your own sales?-There is generally a communication among the curers as to what they think should be the price. Every man states his own opinion freely.

10,144. And communicates the amount of his own sales to his neighbours?-I don't know that he communicates his sales, but he states his idea with regard, to what the price should be.

10,145. Do you sell mostly in this country, or in Spain?-It is chiefly ling that we sell, and they go to the west of Scotland and Ireland. We ship them direct to the Clyde, to merchants in Glasgow and Greenock.

10,146. Have you ever shipped any to Spain?-No.

10,147. Do you know whether the fish shipped there are picked fish?-I understand they are all picked.

10,148. Is a higher price obtained for them than for those sold in this country?-I suppose so; it is chiefly cod that are sent there.

10,149. The men, I understand, have nothing to with fixing the current price of fish?-No.

10,150. Do they sometimes complain that they have not?-I have offered to the fishermen, not since Spence & Co. commenced, but I did repeatedly before, to cure for them at 5 per cent., and furnish everything.

10,151. Were they to sell the fish themselves?-I was to act as their salesman, and disclose all to them if they would give me 5 per cent.

10,152. But they did not agree to that?-No; they thought the safer way was to go on as we had been doing. The fish-curers don't have that love and affection for one another which was described in the evidence in Edinburgh. There is plenty of opposition among them.

10,153. Except at the time when they are fixing the current price?-I cannot say that there is any better agreement then. I cannot agree at all with that part of the evidence which was given before.

10,154. But you always do agree about that to a certain extent?- No; we sometimes do not agree, and we have angry disputations in our letters. We say the price should be a certain thing in our opinion, and Spence & Co. have not agreed with all the fish-curers yet, for we give 10s. per 100 cwts. as an encouragement or bounty, and something to help the men to pay things they have in company at the station; but none of the other curers have given that, and they have been very hard upon us about it. We have given 2s. per. ton more for every ton of green fish we have received than any other curer in Shetland, so that we don't always agree.

10,155. Will you give me a note of your fish sales last year, and the prices?-I will do so privately. [Hands them in.]

10,156. You have now produced to me the lease between Major Cameron and your firm for twelve years up till Martinmas 1880: are all the stipulations about improvements contained in it?-Yes; they are to be, pointed out specially from year to year, but the arrangement is, that there is to be so much expended every year upon improvements.

10,157. But were the regulations for the tenantry separate from this lease and issued to them?-No; the rules and regulations for the sub-tenants are appended to the lease.

10,158. Were these made known to the tenants?-Yes; they were given to them in a different form. They are amended rules to those which were first issued by Mr. Walker.

10,159. Any tenants not complying with these regulations may be removed by you?-Yes; they will get their leases unless they comply with them, and we can remove them at any time.

10,160. What is the length of the holdings of these who comply with these regulations?-It is the same as our own lease, twelve years from 1868.

10,161. How many of the tenants have adopted these [Page 247] regulations?-I should say that, to a greater or less extent, they have all made a fair commencement in the improvements and rotation of cropping.

10,162. But you have absolute power to remove them if they do not comply with that?-We have. The property is absolutely let to us, and we can absolutely turn them out if they do not comply with the regulations. The lease is clear enough upon that point.

10,163. Have you had occasion to exercise that power?-Not in any case.

10,164. Have you threatened to do so?-Not so far as is known to me.

10,165. There is no obligation on the tenants, under this lease, either to fish for you or to sell the produce of their farms to your firm?-No; it is long since I read the lease, but I don't think there is anything of that sort in it.

10,166. In point of fact, is there any understanding on the part of the tenants that they are bound to do so?-No.

10,167. You have told them that they are under no such obligation?-Yes.

10,168. But, in point of fact, most of them do sell their fish to you?-They do.

10,169. And, in point of fact, most of them do sell their eggs and butter to you?-I think the great bulk of them do, but I cannot tell so well about the butter and eggs. We buy fully as much now at Uyea Sound as we did in any season before the company commenced.

10,170. And a number of the tenants also run accounts for shop goods with your shops?-Yes; I think most of them do so.

10,171. Do you think that having this lease is a facility to you in carrying on your business?-I rather think that in one sense it is the reverse, because at first it was so unpopular among the tenants, in consequence of dividing the farms in the first instance, and setting them on to work and cultivate and drain and clear the ground of stones, and to introduce a rotation of cropping, that it placed us as traders in the island to a great disadvantage, and created an unhappy feeling between the tenants and ourselves. I can say that for the last four years, I have spent about one-thirteenth of my time among them, just going from tenant to tenant three or four times every year, in the south parish.

10,172. Over what portion of the island does this lease extend?-It includes nearly one-half of the island. I have been compelled in some cases to use hard measures with the tenants to get them to alter the crop which they had put in, and to bring the land into rotation. That looked a very severe thing to them; but we stood between two fires, as it were.

10,173. You think it would be profitable for them in the end?-I have no doubt it will, and a good many of them are seeing that now.

10,174. But although this lease does not contain an express condition that the tenants are to fish for you, it gives you a power of ejecting them?-Of course it does.

10,175. And the tenants are aware of that?-Yes.

10,176. And of course they may feel a little more unwilling to deal with another party or to fish for him in consequence?-That may be. I don't know what their private feelings may be, but the lease gives us it stronger power than that: it reserves the peats, and what could they do without peats? We have absolute power in that respect, if we choose to put it in force, but I hope never to see that done. We can refuse them peats altogether and scattald altogether, and we can shut them up altogether, but I hope I will never live to see that day.

10,177. In short, you can do anything you please with the tenants, except deprive any one of his holding who complies with these rules and regulations?-Yes.

10,178. The only security he has is to comply with them?-Yes.

10,179. As to the peats and scattalds, he has no security at all?- None.

10,180. You spoke of a bounty of 2s. per ton which you allowed your fishermen at settlement: does that not correspond with the present which is made at settlement at other places by way of drinking money?-They say in other places that they give nothing of that kind, but it would correspond with that.

10,181. Do you give the men anything besides as a gratuity at settling time?-No; we give nothing in the way of drink money. They get what is called a midsummer bottle: that is an old custom, and it still continues among all the fishermen.

10,182. Have you had a good deal to do in the hosiery trade?- Yes, I have bought a good deal of it.

10,183. I understand you buy a quantity of worsted from the spinners in Unst and sell it south?-Yes; I generally sell it in Lerwick.

10,184. At what rates do you generally buy the worsted?-We never like to buy anything coarser than we can give 3d. per cut for.

10,185. The weight of that, I suppose, varies?-The weight of what we give 3d. per cut for would be about 6 cuts to the ounce.

10,186. That would be 24s. per lb.?-Yes; but the number of ounces is not a criterion, because the less the weight the higher the price. We have given as high as 7d. per cut for worsted, and that should weigh 14 cuts of 100 threads to the ounce. That would be 8s. 2d. per ounce, or more than £7 per lb.

10,187. Is not that a very high price?-Yes; but we would give cash for any amount of that kind of worsted we could get, or for worsted at 6d. for 12 cuts to the ounce, but very few can spin that. It is a very fine thread.

10,188. Have you known much worsted sold at the rate of £7, 12s. per lb.?-No, not very much, because there are very few who can spin it so fine. It is just like a cobweb.

10,189. What quantity of worsted of that sort would it take to make a shawl of the ordinary size? About 40 cuts?-That would be a small shawl. I have put as high as 70 cuts of that fine worsted into a shawl; but that was a large shawl. The usual size is 25 to 30 scores, made out of 3d. worsted.

10,190. The score refers to the size of the shawl?-Yes; twenty scores is twenty threads or twenty stitches of the needle across from side to side.

10,191. Is the size of the shawl generally measured by the score or by the yard?-It is generally measured by the score when the girl commences to knit it.

10,192. Then a shawl of that size would take 40 cuts of that fine worsted?-No; a 21/4 yard shawl would take 60 cuts of that fine worsted.

10,193. The worsted of such a shawl would cost £1, 15s?-Yes.

10,194. Can you give me any idea what the knitting of that shawl is generally put in at?-The knitting of shawl of that kind should be 25s. to 30s.

10,195. Are these shawls made in Unst?-Yes; I have got a shawl made in Unst that cost £4, and some that cost £3, and between £3 and £4.

10,196. Would the knitting cost as much in Lerwick?-I don't know. I generally think, as a rule, that the knitter ought to get as much for her work as the price of the worsted.

10,197. But it is somewhat less than the price of the worsted in these fine shawls?-Yes.

10,198. Suppose a shawl of which the worsted cost you 35s. and the knitting 25s.-that is £3 altogether: what would that be invoiced for to the merchant in the south?-Perhaps I am not able to give very good information upon that point, because I have always found these shawls to be a part of my stock which it was very difficult to dispose of.

10,199. Do you mean the fine shawls?-No. I have generally got shawls of that sort made upon an order from gentlemen who happen to come down here, and I usually charge them the cost of the work and dressing, and so on; but I have found it a very difficult thing to sell hosiery.

10,200. Is the 25s. which the knitter gets paid to her in money or in goods?-Almost always in goods.

10,201. And you have been calculating now upon the footing that that price was to be paid in goods?-Yes; but if I got an order for the shawl, I would not care whether it was to be paid for in goods or in cash.

[Page 248]

10,202. That is because if you had got the order you would receive a cash payment?-Yes.

10,203. Whereas, if you were selling it to a merchant, you might have to take goods from him for the value?-It is not exactly that, but I might not get it sold at all. My object in dealing in hosiery is more to oblige my customers than because it is an article on which make a profit. A great bulk of the shawls which sell for about 30s. are made from 3d. worsted. That would be 7s. 6d. for the worsted, and the knitting would be 8s. or 9s. in goods, then there would be 6d. for dressing, and that would be about the cost of an ordinary shawl.

10,204. How much would that sell for in the market?-I don't know. I have tried most of the best hosiers who deal in shawls, and I always lost them.

10,205. Do you invoice shawls to Edinburgh?-Yes, pretty often; but I tried to get out of it because we lost a good deal by it. I suppose these wholesale buyers in the south do their largest trade with the merchants in Lerwick, and they don't like to buy from the country people in case it might operate against their own interests.*

*Mr. Sandison afterwards wrote the following letter in supplement of his evidence:-

'I much regret you could not make your examination in Unst more exhaustive.

'Witnesses were asked the effects of the present system on the morals of the people. I am of opinion their morals will compare very favourably with any other county in Scotland; and I will say for my countrymen, that for intelligence and common sense they are superior to many of the same class elsewhere.

'From careful observation and considerable experience, I have come to think that the increase of small shops acts injuriously on the poorest of the people, leading to the practice of deceit between man and wife, mother and child, as well as between class and class. Many families of the poor and indebted fishermen sell their farm produce, butter, eggs, etc., and even meal and corn, out of their own crop, to some of these small shops for trifling luxuries of no real benefit; and, worst of all, most of these small shops sell spirits surreptitiously, it is believed, to a greater extent than the licensed dealer. As a rule, in my experience, the man who sells his produce in quantity to the large buyer or fish-curer is independent, and has cash in hand and bank; while the man who dribbles away his produce through these shops, only giving his summer fish to the fish-curer, is in debt and poverty. While one man can take up £4 to £6 for the one article of butter, in cash at settlement, the other, with as many milch cows, has nothing. The monopoly said to exist here has not reduced these shops; there are fourteen shops in Unst.

'The interests of the small dealer is <only one,-his own>. The interests of the fish-curer and larger dealer is the people's as much as his own, he must supply all their necessary wants, pay rents, and carry them through with food, at least in unsuccessful seasons; their independence is his gain, their poverty his ruin, by incurring debts, in many cases never paid. This is bad; but in my opinion it is not this, nor barter, call it truck if you like, that has kept Shetland so far behind, but the utter neglect of the soil, and slovenly farming, for the last 100 years. I don't think 100 acres have been added to the cultivated ground by tenant crofters, while in that time the population has increased more than one-third; in place of adding, I am sorry to say that in many cases there has been a most destructive system of reducing going on, by delving down hill for ages until the tops of many fields are wasted to the rock. I have seen places where considerable extents was lost in this way; and for draining and clearing out stones, that was unthought of. For this state of matters, both proprietors and tenants are to blame. Proprietors, in my opinion, have been far too careless of their poperty, not heeding how the crofter farmed, if the rent was paid; and the naturally indolent man reduced more so, by neglecting to increase and improve his farm during the long winter, when he could do little else. Then the breeding and rearing of cattle has been utterly neglected by the small tenants: we have made a right start with that in this island now.

'In all my experience I find the best farmer (I speak of the crofters) is never the worst fisher, and is generally out of debt; while the bad and slovenly farmer, though an extra good fisherman, often falls behind, indeed generally so. Of late I have come to the conclusion that the time spent at the winter fishing is a loss to the crofter, as I do think he can be more profitably employed on his farm, at least until he puts it in proper order. Not to enlarge, I consider the land question a more serious one than the truck for Shetland. Get our crofter fishermen to feel and take an interest in the soil they cultivate; induce them to habits of constant activity on their land, when not fully employed at fishing; get them, by whatever way, to take a pleasure in rendering the waste places of their farm productive of food for man and beast; give them better houses; let them have every reasonable encouragement from their proprietors, with patient continuous oversight by those competent to give direction and advice: I would hope for more from this than all the 'Truck Acts' in the world.

'In place of putting shackles on the fish-curers, who are trying to develop that one branch of our industry, they ought to be encouraged. Much capital is invested in it; and when as much has been done to develop the land as is being done to develop the deep sea, I am sure we will require no 'Truck Act.'

'I would like to say a word on the Rev. Mr. Smith's evidence to price and quality of the goods sold in Unst, but may take another time for that: enough to say just now, that he has yet to try mine.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER JOHNSTON, examined.

10,206. You are registrar of this parish, and you live at Balliasta?-Yes.

10,207. You were formerly a fisherman, and you are acquainted with the way in which the fishing trade is carried on?-Yes. I was acquainted with it when I was at the fishing. It is ten years ago since I left it.

10,208. When you were a fisherman, was there liberty for every man to fish to any one he liked to engage with?-Yes.

10,209. Was there no restriction at all?-No.

10,210. What estate did you live upon?-On the estate of Buness.

10,211. No one there was bound to fish for his landlord or tacksman?-No. When the late Mr. Edmonstone had the fishing himself, I fished for him.

10,212. Were you bound to fish for him?-I was willing to fish for him in preference to any other, because he was my landlord.

10,213. But were you bound to fish for him?-No, he did not hold me bound.

10,214. Might you have engaged to fish for any one else, without any fear of being turned out of your farm?-I might.

10,215. Was that generally the case throughout the country?-I believe it was, so far as I can remember. What it was long before that I don't know.

10,216. You are not engaged in fishing now, or in any business?- No. I have a farm from Mr. Edmonstone.

10,217. Do you deal at the shop at Haroldswick or Balta Sound?- I just deal anywhere I find convenient, because I pay in ready money.

10,218. You don't keep an account?-No.

10,219. Do you prefer that way of dealing?-I do.

10,220. Do you get better bargains in that way?-It may be that there is not much difference, but still have the privilege of choosing where I am to deal.

10,221. Where do you deal in your ready-money transactions?- Chiefly with Spence & Co. at Balta Sound.

10,222. What do you pay there for meal?-I am not, in the way of buying meal. I get it from my own farm.

10,223. What do you pay there for soft goods?-I have not had any lately.

10,224. Do you go to Lerwick for them?-No; but sometimes I send to Lerwick for some tea and other articles.

10,225. Why do you not get your tea from Spence & Co?-I get it sometimes from them, and sometimes from others.

10,226. Why do you send so far as Lerwick for it?-Because we might get it a little cheaper there. We can get very good tea at Lerwick for 2s. 6d. a lb., while the cheapest here is about 3s. or 2s. 8d.

10,227. Is the 2s. 6d. tea that you get in Lerwick as good as the 3s. tea which you get here, or better?-I think it is much about the same.

10,228. Is there anything else you send to Lerwick for?-No.

10,229. What else do you get from Spence & Co.?-Any small thing I require-principally tobacco. I get twist tobacco for 31/2d. an ounce.

10,230. What else do you get?-Nothing worth mentioning.

10,231. Then you buy nothing from Spence & Co. that is worth mentioning except tea and tobacco?-I sometimes buy a little sugar. It is fine white sugar at 6d. a lb. I have also bought sugar from Mr. William Johnston. It was of the same price and quality. I have never got it from Lerwick.

[Page 249]

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM GILBERT MOUAT, examined.

10,232. You are a partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.

10,233. You manage their business at Baltasound along with Mr. Thomson?-Yes.

10,234. You were in business on your own account for a good many years before the formation of that company?-Yes, for eighteen years at Baltasound. I was not extensively in the fishing then, but I had a shop.

10,235. Were you present during the examination of Mr. Sandison?-Yes.

10,236. Do you concur generally in what he said?-Yes; I don't think I could correct or add anything to it, for I think he has given just such a statement as I would have given myself.

10,237. Do you entertain the same opinion about the possibility of an improved mode of conducting business here?-I do.

10,238. You have arrived at the same conclusion with regard to the expediency of a monthly pay if it could be introduced?-Yes; fortnightly or monthly.

10,239. You settle with the fishermen at Baltasound?-Yes; I have settled with the greater number of them there for the last four years.

10,240. In 1867, before the formation of the firm, had you fishermen in your own employment here?-Yes.

10,241. Before 1868 Mr. John Spence carried on business at Haroldswick as a fish-curer?-Yes.

10,242. And, I understand, the accounts of both the Haroldswick fishermen and the Baltasound fishermen are now kept in your books at Baltasound?-Yes. They are transferred from what is called the Haroldswick fisherman's ledger to the general ledger. We enter the amount of advances at Haroldswick into the general fishing ledger, and give the men credit in that ledger for the amount of their fishings.

10,243. Does that general fishing ledger show the amount of balances due at the beginning of each year as well as at the end?- Yes. [Produces fisherman's ledger.]

10,244. Are the shop accounts entered in this book in full, or is the summation merely transferred from another book?-These accounts [showing] are just taken from what we call the fisherman's ledger at Haroldswick, containing the fishermen's accounts for the season.

10,245. How do you do with the fishermen who deal in the shop at Baltasound?-We have a shop ledger in which the details of their transactions are entered. Here [showing], and for eighteen pages back, you will find the Baltasound fishermen. Then here [showing] is the account for the rent, which we pay for the men to the Earl of Zetland. I collect Lord Zetland's rents here for Messrs. George and Arthur James Hay, the factors, and remit them to them when collected.

10,246. Have you the shop ledger?-Yes. [Produces it.]

10,247. Each fisherman has his account separately kept in it?- Yes.

10,248. I suppose few of them care to keep passbooks?-Some of them keep pass-books over the whole season, but others of them do not. Here [showing account in shop ledger] is a sample of the transactions for this season. The amount of that account is carried into the ledger, but the credits due to the man do not appear in the shop ledger.

10,249. Do you generally find the men applying to you for cash early in the year, before the fishing begins?-Not often. If they are requiring a few shillings they may ask for it, and get it, but I cannot say that they ever ask for much.

10,250. I see here an entry on January 5, 'To biscuit, 1s. 2d.:' what quantity of biscuit would that be?-I suppose it would be 4 lbs. of what are called cabin biscuit.

10,251. 'Tobacco, 1s. 1d?' -That would be a 1/4 lb. at 31/2d. an ounce and the man got 1d. off by taking a quantity.

10,252. 'Tea, 11d.,:' is that the best quality of tea?-Yes. We have cheaper tea than that at 8d. and 10d.

10,253. Are Shetland people, I understand, are very particular about their tea?-Yes; and they are very good judges of it.

10,254. I see another entry on October, 28 ' To meal, 2s. 10d.?'- That would be 16 lbs., or half a lispund.

10,255. On October 5 the meal was 5s, 9d., so that there had been a fall between that date and October 28?-Yes. There is often a rise and fall in the price of meal.

10,256. Where do you get your meal?-Generally from Aberdeen, from Glenny & Cruickshank, and Mr. Mess, and Mr. Walker, and Mr. Tulloch, all in Aberdeen. We generally get our flour from Messrs. Tod, Stockbridge.

10,257. I see an entry, 'To meal per meal-book:' is that a separate book which you keep for meal?-Yes; it is a book we generally keep in the cellar, where the meal is weighed out. The meal is marked there at the time the people get it, and then it is entered as a whole in the ledger.

10,258. That is done to save repetition of entries in the lodger?- Yes. This [showing] is one of the accounts referred to by Mr. Sandison, kept by six men on the station as a company, and it is in that account that we give them credit for 2s. per 20 weighs. We put it to their credit there, and then charge the men only for the balance in their accounts.

10,259. How is that credited in their account?-It has not been done yet. The crew have not settled.

10,260. But how would it be entered?-Just for an allowance.

10,261. You take the whole quantity of fish delivered, and calculate what the allowance is upon that?-Yes; on the quantities delivered of cod, tusk, and ling. We don't allow it upon the saith.

10,262. Is the saith an inferior item in the season's fishing?-It has been rather low for some years back until this year, but it has been rather better.

10,263. I see, under January 12, in Andrew Mouat's account, 'Paraffin oil, 5d.' How much oil was that?-About 51/2 gills, I suppose.

10,264. What is the selling price of paraffin oil at your store?-2s. a gallon.

10,265. How many gills are in a gallon?-32.

10,266. So that the price which Mouat paid for his oil was a little more than 2s. 6d. a gallon?- Yes, but the bottles are not all alike. Some may hold 6 gills, and some only 51/2. We generally fill the bottle for 5d. when they bring it to us.

10,267. Where do you get your paraffin oil?-From Young's Paraffin Light Co.

10,268. Do you generally import it once a year or so in the beginning of winter?-No; we generally get 1 or 2 or 3 casks by the steamer now and then, as we require it.

10,269. When did you last get a supply of oil from that company?-I don't know if we had any last season at all; because we got 3 or 4 casks early in the spring, which served us throughout the season.

10,270. What was the price of it?-I think the last we bought from Young & Co. was 1s. 5d. or 1s. 6d.-I think 1s. 5d. per gallon; but then there is double freight to pay on it.

10,271. Where do Young & Co. deliver it?-At Granton.

10,272. What is the freight from there?-I think it is nearly 2d. per gallon; but we have had the oil much dearer from Young & Co. than 1s. 5d.

10,273. Have you ever got any from Rowatt & Son?-We have had oil from a person named Williamson, but not direct. I think the last we got from him was through an agent in Leith.

10,274. Where is Williamson's place?-I cannot say; only saw the name on the cask. We got it from Mr. J.B. Leask.

10,275. Do either of these books which you have produced contain the accounts of persons employed in your curing business?-Yes.

10,276. Do you contract for curing at Baltasound [Page 250] and Haroldswick?-No; we employ the people ourselves; and their accounts are entered generally in the Baltasound book.

10,277. I see an account of Thomas Mouat, beach boy, February 17, 1870, 'To Baltasound shop account £2, 0s. 3d., by fee £1, 10s., by balance to account, 10s. 3d.,' which is carried to next account, and he is charged 6d of interest on it. Then November 17, 'To Baltasound shop account £1, 10s. 8d., by beach fee £1, 15s., by balance to account 6s. 5d.' Has he been working for you this year?-No.

10,278. Has that balance of 6s. 5d. been settled?-No.

10,279. Where is the boy now?-He is working as a blacksmith.

10,280. Do you charge these boys interest when they are in debt?-Yes, we have done so; but only for the last two years.

10,281. Has that been with the view of reducing their balance?-It will rather increase them.

10,282. But has it been done in order to lead them to incur less debt?-I wish it would; but in many cases I believe they cannot help themselves. It is not their wish to incur debt

10,283. Does it generally happen that a beach boy is in your debt at the end of the season?-Not generally.

10,284. I see that John Miller has a balance of 4s. against him in 1870, and a balance of 9d. to get in 1871?-Yes.

10,285. Robert Gardiner has a balance of £1, 19s., against him in 1870. Has he not settled that yet?-No; he is in Glasgow.

10,286. Thomas Abernethy, beach boy, got a fee of £2. 10s., and 15s. for drying fish for 30 days, and he had to receive a balance of 1s. 01/2d. at the end of the year?-Yes.

10,287. John Jamieson, beach boy, had a beach fee of £2, 5s., 39 days drying fish at 5d.-16s. 3d. and there is a balance of 11s. 11d. against him upon his shop account?-Yes.

10,288. Nicol Thomson had a beach fee of £1, and he had a balance of 5s. 3d. against him for 1870, and has since got supplies to the amount of 5s. 61/2d?-Yes. He was only employed for part of the season.

10,289. Was he working for you last year?-No.

10,290. John Harrison has a balance in his favour of 2s. 101/2d.?- Yes.

10,291. Archibald Thomson, in 1870, had a balance against him of 17s. He settled again the day before yesterday, and got a balance in cash of £2, 6s. 31/2 d?-Yes. He was a fisherman last year. 10,292. He had £9, 1s. to get for his fish?-Yes; and he had credit with another boat. He went with one boat for a time in place of another man who was laid up.

10,293. In the account of Charles Sandison, fish-curer, his shop account at Uyea Sound was £3, 2s. 11d. in 1870, and £3, 11s. 101/2d. at Baltasound, and there also a balance of rent of 11s. 6d. charged against him. The balance against him at November 12, 1869, and carried to new account, is £4, 5s. 31/2d. The interest on that is 4s. 3d., and the balance against him on March 18, 1871, was £9, 8s. 51/2d.?-Yes.

10,294. He has since put in £6, 3s. 9d. and £1 to his credit, the first being the price of a cow, and the other a payment made by his son, or carried from his son's account into his?-Yes, by his order.

10,295. That was done with the view of reducing his debt?-Yes; the son was living with the father, and it was done to reduce his father's debt.

10,296. This account has not been settled yet?-No, and this year's rent has not been debited to the account. We have not yet taken it out of the land ledger.

10,297. Has he been working for you?-No. He is an old man, and I think his son intends to take the farm, and to join him.

10,298. There is £4, 12s. 6d. of rent debited to him in 1870. To whom was that rent payable?-To Spence & Co. That is one of the farms included in their lease.

10,299. In the account of Thomas Peterson he is credited with a beach fee of £5, and he had a balance against him in 1869 in 6s. 101/2d. The balance in his favour at settling in 1871 was 1s. 41/2d., but in that year he had been fishing, not regularly, but occasionally, with certain boats?-Yes. He has been fishing regularly this year, but his account is not settled yet.

10,300. This account [showing] contains the total beach fees paid by you in 1869 and 1870, being £91, 12s. 8d. in 1869 and £115, 12s. 8d. in 1870?-Yes.

10,301. What are the entries on page 251?-That is a page which I am using as a cash-book in settling up with the men at the present settlement.

10,302. It shows the amount paid in cash to each man?-Yes.

10,303. The total is £162, 10s. 21/2d., which been paid to thirty-two men?-Yes.

10,304. That does not show the men whose balances were the other way?-No.

10,305. Would there be a larger number whose balances were the other way?-There would be great deal more money out, whether the number of men were larger or not.

10,306. Have you any dealings in hosiery at your shop?-We do very little in that way.

10,307. When you do deal with a woman for hosiery, do you open an account in her name?-Sometimes. Of course if she gets worsted from our shop we have to debit her with it, and see that she returns it.

10,308. Does she generally take out goods for the amount of her knitting?-Sometimes.

10 309. Have you a special book for these accounts?-No, not now.

10,310. Did you use to have a woman's book for them?-Yes; we had a small ledger when we commenced. It was not exactly a woman's book, but the hosiery accounts were generally kept in it.

10,311. Did it contain accounts for butter and eggs?-No; we did not keep accounts for them. Of course if a man comes in with 16 or 20 or 30 or 40 lbs. of butter, that goes to his credit if he wishes it to be settled for in that way.

10,312. You do not take any share in the management of the shop at Haroldswick?-I sometimes take a little.

10,313. I have been told to-day that Mrs. Spence's hosiery purchases are settled for with goods got in the shop there?-Yes.

10,314. Are Mrs. Spence's purchases of hosiery and worsted made by her on account of the firm?-No. She generally sells for herself what hosiery she buys.

10,315. Then, when the hosiery is paid for by means of goods supplied from the shop at Haroldswick, how does that enter the books of the firm?-She is just debited with the amount paid to so and so.

10,316. Are these goods debited to her at cost price?-No, at retail price.

10,317. And the firm has no connection with the purchase or sale of that hosiery?-No.

10,318. Where do you get your supplies of tea?-We get them from different places.

10,319. Do you get any from R. & C. Robertson, Lerwick?-No, I don't think we have got 20 lbs. of tea from them since we commenced business in 1868. We get our tea from Aberdeen, Glasgow, and London.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,320. You are a fisherman at Snarravoe, and hold a bit of land on Lord Zetland's property?-Yes.

10,321. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Mr. Mouat, the commissioner for Mr. Hay, and Mr. Hay is the commissioner for the Earl.

10,322. Does Mr. Mouat enter the rent in your account?-Yes.

10,323. Do you fish for Spence & Co?-Yes. I have fished for them since they became a company, and before that I fished for Hay & Co.

[Page 251]

10,324. Are you quite at liberty to fish for any person you please?-I suppose I am.

10,325. And to deal at any shop you please?-Yes.

10,326. Do you generally deal in Spence & Co.'s shop?-Yes, because I find I am as well served there as I would be at any other place. 10.327. Snarravoe is in the south of the island, and you go to the shop at Uyeasound?-Yes.

10,328. Is that the nearest shop to you?-There are some small shops nearer, but I find that I am as well served at that shop as I would be at any other shop I could go to. I have very little dealings in any other shop.

10,329. Do you keep a pass-book?-I had a passbook at one time, but it was not kept regularly, and I don't have one now. I found that the keeping of it made very little difference.

10,330. Were you ever employed in fishing at a fixed price for the whole fish taken during the season?-Yes; but we were generally paid it little more than the fixed price.

10,331. When were you engaged in that way?-About a year or two years ago by Spence & Co. We engaged at 7s., and we were paid it few pence more-I think 3d. more.

10,332. Did you ask for that?-No; they gave it freely, because the fish turned out a little better than they expected at the time when we made the engagement for the fishing.

10,333. If they had turned out a little worse, would the men have taken less for their fish?-No doubt they would have looked for their bargain; but it would have been just in them to have taken it little less in that case, as well as to get a little more when the price was high.

10,334. Do you think the men in this district would be content to have a bargain of that sort as a rule?-I don't know; because sometimes the markets go up, and the men may get a little more for their fish if the price is settled at the end of the season.

10,335. Therefore you think it is better to have the price fixed at the end of the season, when you see how the markets have turned out?-Sometimes it would be.

10,336. But if the markets were to fall towards the end of the year, might the fisherman not gain something if he had engaged at a fixed price?-He would; and that was the kind of engagements we had in the herring fishing in Hay & Co.'s time.

10,337. Have you gone to the herring fishing?-Yes, but we were always paid a little more than we agreed for. We were paid 10s. or 11s., or more, per cran.

10,338. Were you always successful at it?-Only sometimes. That fishing has been a failure for the last few years.

10,339. But you had no arrangement there except to get so much per cran for all the herrings you took?-That was all.

10,340. Were you running an account in the shop while the fishing was going on?-Yes.

10,341. Don't you think you would be better off to have your money paid down once a month or so, as the fish are delivered, and be able to pay for your purchases as you get them?-I don't know. I suppose the goods are all the same price, whether I pay for them when I get them or not.

10,342. Don't you think you would be able to buy your goods cheaper if you could pay for them at the time?-I don't know.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined.

10,343. Are you a fisherman at Westing?-I was formerly a fisherman, but it is about twenty years ago since I gave it up. I am now curing fish for Messrs. Spence & Co. at Westing.

10,344. Do you cure by contract?-Yes. I get 10s. per ton of dry fish for my trouble.

10,345. Do you employ a number of beach boys and men in the curing?-Yes; about eight. They get fees varying from 30s. up to above

10,346. Do you keep a book in which you enter the payments you make to them?-No. I do not keep any book except a pass-book, in which I enter the fish that are delivered to me.

10,347. Are the wages of these boys paid by you?-Not wholly by me, but I pay them in part.

10,348. But you are their employer, and are liable to them for their wages?-Yes.

10,349. Do they take part of their wages in goods from the shop?-When they want them in that way, they get a line for their money to the shop.

10,350. Do you give them a line when they want goods?-Yes. I give them a line stating the amount that Mr. Sandison is to give them, either in goods or in money.

10,351. Is that entered against you in the books at Uyea Sound?- Yes.

10,352. Before paying them their wages, do you ascertain how much has been taken out by them in that way?-No.

10,353. Then how is the balance of their wages settled? Is it paid directly by the company?-It is paid by the company. I state in my line what fee I give them; and what they may give them over and above that I cannot tell. I am not responsible for that.

10,354. The line you give to the company does not state so much money, 5s. or 10s., that is to be allowed to them in goods or in cash, at a particular time, but it simply states the fee that you have agreed to give them at the end of the year?-It states the balance they have not actually got from me. If they want a certain amount at any time, I give them a line; or if they ask the money from me, then I give it to them, and they get a line to Mr. Sandison for the balance.

10,355. Do you sometimes give them money yourself?-Yes; when they ask for money they get it.

10,356. But more commonly they get a line to Mr. Sandison for goods?-More commonly for the greater share of it.

10,357. How many lines do they get in the course of a year? Is it one or more?-Generally one at the end of the season, when the fish have been dried.

10,358. Then how do they get their goods in the course of the season?-I cannot tell as to that, for I don't know.

10,359. But how does Mr. Sandison know how far to give them credit in the course of the season, before he gets the line from you, which you say you give him at the end?-Mr. Sandison no doubt knows what the amount of a beach fee will be; but I cannot say as to that. I am not responsible for any excess he may give them.

10,360. Then all you do with regard to these out-takes at the shop is to give the boy a line at the end of the season, telling Mr. Sandison what the agreed-on fee was?-Yes, and what balance I have not already paid him.

10,361. And in that line you make no mention of what he has got at the shop, because you don't know?-No.

10,362. In that way of working, is there not a risk of the boy asking more at the end of the season than is really due to him, and of your overpaying him?-Mr. Sandison might overpay him, but I could not.

10,363. Why?-Because I fix the fee, and I know what I have given him, and then I only give a line to Mr. Sandison to pay the balance.

10,364. But he might have got the whole amount of his fee in out-takes from Mr. Sandison, before you gave him payment in cash at the end of the season?-He might; but I am generally well acquainted with the boys, and have confidence in them that they will not run an account of that kind.

10,365. Suppose a boy were to come to you in July, and asked for 5s. in cash, would you be likely to give it to him?-Yes, I would give it.

10,366. Might it not happen that at that very time he had run up an account in the shop for £2 or £3?-If he did so, I would expect Mr. Sandison to make me acquainted with it.

[Page 252]

10,367. Did Mr. Sandison ever give you intimation that a particular boy was in debt to such an amount?-No.

10,368. So that these boys can get a cash advance from you, and credit at the shop at Uyea Sound at the same time?-Yes, if they choose. That might be done for a certain time, but I don't think it could go on very long without being known.

10,369. I suppose it is not very likely that you would give him much money?-He could get it all in money if he asked for it when the work is done, but not before.

10,370. But you would not pay him the money until you had ascertained the amount of his account at the shop?-I never asked that.

10,371. Is your work done about September?-Yes.

10,372. Suppose in September a boy were to come and ask you for the whole of his fee in money, would you pay it down to him?-I have done that.

10,373. Did he tell you that he had no account at the shop?-Yes; and that proved to be the case.

10,374. Has that happened often?-Not often. It has happened once with regard to the whole, and oftener with regard to a part.

10,375. Have you an account at Uyea Sound for supplies to yourself?-Yes.

10,376. The contract price of your curing is entered in that account against your supplies?-Yes; and I am paid the balance in cash.

10,377. And out of that balance you have to pay any balances that are due to the beach boys?-Yes.

10,378. How much money will you require to get at the end of the season, in order to settle with your beach boys?-Generally the money which the beach boys get from me is paid to them during the season.

10,379. When do you settle at the shop?-In December or January. I have not settled yet for last year.

10,380. Therefore you have not settled with the beach boys?-All the beach boys are all settled with in November.

10,381. How much money did you require last November in order to settle with them?-It is Mr. Sandison who settles with them at the end of the season, and I don't know how much money they had to get.

10,382. Do you generally have the same beach boys for some years in succession?-Yes. I have had some for six years, and some for shorter periods.

10,383. What proportion of your payment for curing do you get in money? Do you get most of it at the end of the season?- Sometimes. In some years we have to buy a good deal of meal and other things; but in a year such as the present, when we have had a good crop, I get the most of it in money. Besides, I can get money any time when I ask for it. I have never been refused it within the last twenty years.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HARPER, examined.

10,384. You are a fisherman to Messrs. Spence & Co. at Haroldswick?-Yes. I fish at Norwick, but the books are at Haroldswick.

10,385. Have you a bit of land from Spence & Co?-Yes.

10,386. You pay your rent to them, and deal with them at their shop at Haroldswick?-Yes, I get all my goods there.

10,387. Do you deal anywhere else?-No.

10,388. Why?-For want of money.

10,389. How do you want money?-Because I don't have it.

10,390. Have you had bad seasons?-I never was in debt before I came to Spence. & Co.

10,391. How did you get into debt with them?-From bad seasons in the first place, and from overpriced goods. Meal is over-priced, for one thing. My father has dealt twelve years with ready money; and I have seen the advantage he has got by it, and what I have lost.

10,392. Who is your father?-William Harper: he is a fisherman too; he has been master of a boat for about forty years to Mr. Spence.

10,393. How do you know that the meal is over-priced which you get from Messrs. Spence's shop?-The first meal I got from Spence & Co. was one boll, when I began to fish for them four years ago. My father got one half of the sack, and I got the other: I was charged 27s., and he was charged 24s. 6d.

10,394. Why was that?-I had nothing to give Spence & Co., but my father had ready money. That was in the spring before I commenced to fish.

10,395. You did not settle for the meal until the end of the year?- No.

10,396. Consequently they were long in getting their money from you?-Yes.

10,397. Was it not quite fair that they should get little more for lying out of their money all that time?-Yes; but 2s. 6d. was too much to charge for interest. That was only on meal, but I could make more profit on groceries and soft goods too.

10,398. Have you anything more to say about the meal?-That is the only thing I can recollect about it.

10,399. Have you bought your meal in the same way ever since?- Yes, until last year, when I had as much as could supply myself.

10,400. How many bolls had you to buy in the course of the year?-From 4 to 6.

10,401. Do you think you lost 2s. 6d. a boll on each of these?-I have no doubt I did, for want of ready money.

10,402. What have you to say about the other things?-That was somewhat further back, but at any rate I have been out of pocket with Spence & Co. ever since commenced with them. I was a skipper where I was before, and got a skipper's fee; but the fee which I got from Spence & Co. is not so much as I got formerly. I fished for John Johnston for 11 years. For the first two years I was only a young fellow, and was to be paid according to my fishing. After that, I got promise of £4 of skipper's fee, and when he saw I was getting on so well he always gave me £5 afterwards. Then I was forced-at least I believed I was forced, although I know now that I was not-to go to Spence & Co. from John Johnston, because he got his warning and could not keep me, but had to sell his boats or boat.

10,403. When was that?-In 1867 or 1868. He had two boats, and he sold the one I was fishing in.

10,404. How were you forced to leave him?-Because Spence & Co. got a tack from Mr walker, and I and all the north parish understood that I had to leave my employer and go to them.

10,405. Were you not told that you were quite at liberty to fish either to Spence & Co. or to any other person?-I was never told that until I heard Mr. Sandison say it. I don't think it was told in the north of the island; at least I was not told about it.

10,406. Were you ever told that you had to fish for Spence & Co?-That was rather hinted at.

10,407. Who hinted it?-Mr. Mouat. I was rather hot-tempered, and so was he, and when we were both hot he gave me a hint about that.

10,408. Was that in 1868?-I think so.

10,409. I suppose you conveyed the hint to a good number of others?-Yes. I sat down and wrote a letter to Mr. Walker, telling him what had been said; and I got an answer from him, saying I was to work according to the rules I had in my lease, and that no one could interfere.

10,410. Is there anything more you have to say?-There is nothing particular; but I may say that there are a good many skippers here, and a good many poor men, who will never be asked to come forward, and will never get the chance.

10,411. They may come forward if they like?-They don't care about coming forward, and there are some of them whose stories are far worse than mine.

[Page 253]

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, CHARLES GRAY, examined.

10,412. You are a mason at Balliasta?-Yes.

10,413. Have you been working lately in the chromate of iron quarries?-Not for the last few years. I think it is six years since I was there.

10,414. How were the wages paid at these quarries when you were working at them?-Mr. Mouat was superintending then.

10,415. When did he cease to superintend?-I think it is only about a year back, or two years.

10,416. Was there a change in the company then?-Yes. There was a new company formed then, and new people to work the quarries.

10,417. Who was working the quarries when you were employed there?-There were different agents during the time I was there; but Mr. Mouat was superintendent.

10,418. You don't know who the company were?-I think the company were just the proprietors.

10,419. Were your wages paid to you in cash?-Yes; we got them in cash from the cashier, the late Mr. Charles Mouat,-not the present Mr. Mouat.

10,420. Where were they paid to you?-Sometimes at his house, and sometimes at the vestry, which was a public place.

10,421. But always in cash?-Yes, always in cash, since there was a cashier appointed.

10,422. Did you not sometimes get lines?-No; I never got lines. I cannot say for others, but I never got one.

10,423. Did you never see a line?-Not to my recollection.

10,424. Did you ever hear of lines being given?-I did hear about that, but I could not vouch for it being true.

10,425. What did you hear about it?-That some parties had got lines for part of their wages.

10,426. What were they to do with the lines?-I don't know.

10,427. What did you understand they were to do with them?-I understood the line was to be paid at the place where it was sent to.

10,428. Was that at the shop?-Yes.

10,429. And to be paid in goods?-I did not know that.

10,430. Did you not know whether there was any practice of that sort?-No, I did not know about it myself.

10,431. Have you heard that there was?-Yes; but it is a long time back.

10,432. I understood you had been employed there lately?-No.

10,433. Who is paymaster there now?-Mr. Gardner. I think the men are paid at his house.

10,434. The company have no shop?-No.

10,435. And Mr. Gardner has no connection with any shop?- None whatever.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, GILBERT WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,436. Did you receive a citation some days ago to attend here?- There was a citation handed to me not bearing my name.

10,437. It bore the name of Peter Williamson, storekeeper, Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,438. Is there any person named Williamson who is a storekeeper at Haroldswick except yourself?-No.

10,439. Did you not know that that citation was intended for you?-I could not certify that it was.

10,440. Had you any doubt that it was?-I had some doubt.

10,441. How could you possibly have any doubt when there is no other person of that name there who is a storekeeper?-Because my name in the register is Gilbert, not Peter.

10,442. Did you think that was a sufficient excuse for not attending this Court?-Yes.

10,443. Did you receive a citation to-day?-From a boy.

10,444. From a messenger from me?-Yes.

10,445. Did he tell you he had been sent from here?-He said he got it from Mr. White.

10,446. In reply to that, you wrote saying that you did not think that was intended for you either?-No.

10,447. Or that you received it too late, and that you did not know whether you were bound to come?-Yes. I took witnesses to see what time it was when I got it.

10,448. Are you the principal storekeeper to Spence & Co. at Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,449. Have you anything to do with the purchases of hosiery which are made at that shop?-We don't deal in it.

10,450. At the shop you do not; but Mrs. John Spence, who is not able to attend here to-day, has some dealings in hosiery?-We never see her buy hosiery in the shop, to my knowledge.

10,451. Do you not know that she buys hosiery in her house?-I hear that she buys hosiery, but I never saw her do so.

10,452. Have you ever received lines from her directing you to supply goods to parties from whom she has bought hosiery?-I have received lines from her to supply value for so much, but not stating that it was for hosiery. It might have been for anything.

10,453. Have you any of these lines?-No, I have none.

10,454. In what form are they drawn?-Suppose it was to Ursula Johnston, the line would be, Pay to Ursula Johnston the value of 2s., and it is signed J. Spence.

10,455. Do you always honour these lines by supplying the party named in them with goods up to the value of the sum named in the line?-Yes, with whatever they ask for.

10,456. Do you receive many of them?-Sometimes we receive a few, but not very many; at least I do not consider it very many.

10,457. What would you consider very many?-100 in a week; I would consider that very many.

10,458. How many is it that you do receive?-I never counted them.

10,459. Would there be twenty in a week?-Sometimes not one half of that, sometimes more, and some weeks none at all.

10,460. Is that according as the business is brisk, or the reverse?- So far as I know, it is. I am under the conviction that for a month I have had no advances to pay at all.

10,461. Is there any other way in which parties who sell hosiery to Mrs. Spence, or who you have reason to believe sell hosiery to her, are paid out of the shop?-I don't quite understand the question.

10,462. Have you any other transactions with Mrs. Spence?- None with her.

10,463. Do you know whether any other parties who sell hosiery to Mrs. Spence have accounts at the shop-I could not certify as to that.

10,464. Have you got any of these lines?-I have none of them on my person.

10,465. Have you any of them in the shop?-Yes.

10,466. Were they left there by parties to whom you had supplied goods?-Yes.

10,467. Did you read the citation which was sent to you?-Yes.

10,468. Did you see that you were required to bring with you specimens of lines given or received by any party connected with the company in the purchase of hosiery?-I saw that written there.

10,469. Why did you not bring them?-Because they were not mine to bring.

10,470. Whose were they?-Spence & Co.'s.

10,471. Why did you not ask leave to bring them?-Because the members of the firm were all here.

10,472. Could you not have brought them with you, and asked leave of the partners of the firm here to produce them?-That never occurred to my mind.

10,473. Do you make the same answer with regard to the citation to produce all papers, books, and accounts, [Page 254] showing the nature of the company's dealings with fishermen or knitters?- Yes.

10,474. You could not bring these here without asking leave of the members of the firm to produce them-I could not ask their leave, because they were here.

10,475. Could you not have brought the books here and asked permission then to produce them?-I did not think it was right for me to remove them from the office until I had asked leave to do so. There is one of the books here, the fisherman's ledger, which has been spoken to by Mr. Mouat.

10,476. How was that book brought here?-Mr. Mouat sent for it.

10,477. Why did you come here yourself without asking leave of the members of the firm?-Because I was summoned.

10,478. Was it not just as necessary for you to ask leave to come yourself as to ask leave to bring the books?-No, I came when I was sent for.

10,479. Let me recommend you in future to pay more attention to a legal citation when it is served upon you, or you will get into trouble. I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here, in consequence of the way in which you have behaved.

*The following specimen of the lines issued by Mrs. Spence was afterwards produced:-'Haroldswick, 13th Novr. 1871 Messrs. Spence & Co. pay Andrina Boyne the sum of one shilling. 1s. J. SPENCE' The line is crossed, 'Entd. G.W.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON (recalled), examined.

10,480. Are you agent at Uyea Sound for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I was agent, but there are no members now.

10,481. Have the men ceased to subscribe?-Yes. I think I have not sent up a return for five or six years, not having anything to send.

10,482. Are any of the members of your firm agents in Unst for the Society?-No.

10,483. Do you know anything of a man named Jamieson who was formerly at Uyea Sound, and who was warned out by your firm?- That would be Thomas Jamieson who was at Uyea Sound until three years ago.

10,484. Was he removed from that place shortly after you took your lease?-About a year after.

10,485. He had a shop there?-Yes.

10,486. Is there any stipulation in the lease about shops on the property?-It is so long since I read it that I don't recollect.

10,487. Have you any letters on that subject from Mr. Walker or from Major Cameron?-I cannot tax my memory with receiving any.

10,488. Is it understood that no shops should be opened upon the estate?-That was the understanding.

10,489. And was it in following out that understanding that Jamieson was removed?-Yes.

10,490. Do you know whether a man named John Johnston was removed at Haroldswick in carrying out the same understanding?-I believe he was. He has now a shop near the same place where he was before, on an adjacent estate.

10,491. He removed to Lord Zetland's land?-Yes.

10,492. Is that the case in which the shop was removed bodily across the road?-I believe so, but I cannot speak to that from seeing it.

10,493. I fancy the understanding you mention proceeds upon the footing that you ought, in consideration of the rent you pay to Major Cameron, to have the monopoly of the shop business in the island, so far as he can give it to you?-Yes; that no doubt was the intention.

10,494. And that would be one of the considerations upon which you pay so high a rent?-Yes. I may state that one strong reason why we took the lease at first was, that we believed it was depopulation and sheep farming that was meant, by what we saw taking place in other places; and we also were under the impression that the small tenants could not exist without the scattalds, or if they should have them to pay for; and while, of course, I do not say there was not some selfish design, because we expected to make a living, we also hoped to see them make a living, and we were to try to improve them if we could. However it ends, that was really our design, and the number of small shops which existed stood in the way of that. I have known cases where I would not give luxuries to a man who was in debt, but he would come and get fishing lines from me, which he said he needed, and he has sold them to other shops in order to supply himself with superfluities. I know one case in which I gave a woman a quarter of a boll of meal, when I would not give her either tea or sugar, and she went and disposed of a portion of the meal to a neighbour in order to get tea, she being then irrecoverably in debt.

10,495. Then you mean to imply that this monopoly was secured partly to save yourselves from debts of that sort, and partly to keep the people in their holdings?-Yes; to keep them from being turned out of the island.

10,496. But also partly to prevent them, when they got into your debt, from spending their money and their produce elsewhere?- Exactly. I may mention that North Yell we had only three fishing boats this year, and when I settled with them I paid them over £200 in cash. We had no store there, except a small one at the beach or fishing station, to supply them with the necessaries they wanted and the fishing materials. We don't cure by contract there, but by beach men, splitters, and boys; and I paid every one in cash as being the simplest and shortest way.

10,497. Is there any arrangement between your firm and any other firm or fish-curer, by which you take over the debts of men who change their service?-There is no arrangement. We try to do that if we can, but we find it rather uphill work.

10,498. Have you ever succeeded in getting a merchant who has engaged a man that formerly fished to you, and who left in your debt, to pay up the man's debt?-Since the company was formed we have had no experience of that, and it would be scarcely possible for me tax my memory just now with cases which had occurred before; but I have no doubt there were cases, in which I tried to do that, whether I succeeded or not.

10,499 If a man left Mr. Mouat, for instance, and was in his debt and came to you, would you pay up the debt which he was due to Mr. Mouat?-Yes; but it was only a peradventure; there was no standing rule on the matter, that I am aware of.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, THOMAS ANDERSON, examined.

10,500. You are a fisherman at Haroldswick, and you have fished for some years for Spence & Co?-Yes.

10,501. You have been running accounts with them: during that period, and taking your supplies from them?-Yes; the whole or nearly the whole of my supplies.

10,502. Before that where did you get your supplies?-I had more money to work upon then, and I got my supplies from John Johnston and from Mr. Mouat at Baltasound, and sometimes from Mr. Spence.

10 503 Did you pay them generally in cash?-Yes.

10,504. How does it happen that you have not been paying in cash during the last four years?-Because have a small family, and I have more responsibility.

10,505. Your expenses have been increased, and have not the cash in hand?-Yes.

10,506. Was it for that reason that you were obliged to run accounts at the shop at Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,507. Do you think you are as well served in respect of quality and price of goods as you were formerly?-I get the same quality of goods, but not at the same price. If I were taking cloth or cotton, or any other [Page 255] kind of goods, and paying cash for them, I would get them 2s. 6d. per £ cheaper than if I were having them marked down for a twelvemonth.

10,508. Have you tried both ways within the last two years, to any great extent?-I have not paid cash to any great extent within that time.

10,509. But you have bought perhaps £2 or £3 worth in the course of the year?-Yes.

10,510. Did you get a discount for cash?-Yes.

10,511. Can you tell me the cash price and the credit price for meal?-Not exactly; but I know that if I was buying a boll of meal for cash, I would get it 1s. 6d. or 2s. cheaper than if I was having it marked down for a twelvemonth. I have also got cotton 1/2d. or 1d. per yard cheaper when paying for it in cash than if it had been marked down. If I had cash to the amount of £20 in the course of a year, I am certain I could save £2 upon it at any rate.

10,512. If you were paid for your fish every month as they were delivered, do you think you would be able to pay in cash, and so pay off your debt?-I think I would, if there were good fishing years.

10,513. If you had a bad season again, where would you get your supplies?-We are not to be looking for bad seasons always.

10,514. Nor for good seasons always?-No.

10,515. You have had several good seasons now, have you not?- Yes.

10,516. How do you sell your winter and spring fish?-We can get cash or goods for them.

10,517. How much will you make for your winter and spring fish in an ordinary year: may it be £4 or £5?-Sometimes it may be as much as that, but not generally.

10,518. Could you not make more if you had larger boats?-We have never tried that; but I don't think it.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HAY, examined.

10,519. You are a merchant in Haroldswick?-I was. I sold groceries and some soft goods; but I have given up that business now and turned farmer.

10,520. Were you engaged in fish-curing?-A little. I had one boat at one time but not now.

10,521. With what class of people was your business chiefly done?-Just with the neighbours,-tenants and fishermen.

10,522. Was it a ready-money business generally?-It was that system I liked. I ran some accounts; but I rather liked ready money.

10,523. You were not extensively engaged in fishcuring, and in that way you had no security for long accounts?-No.

10,524. Was that the only reason why you preferred a ready-money system?-I preferred it, thinking the system would work better once it had had a fair beginning.

10,525. Did you find that it worked fairly well with you?-I had not enough experience of it to say that, because the other system had been so long in existence that it was difficult to make an exception.

10,526. You mean that the credit system has prevailed so long, and is so deeply rooted in Shetland, that it was difficult to carry on business in any other way-Yes.

10,527. Have you formed any conclusions on that subject which you are now prepared to state?-My own conviction is, that if a ready-money system was once in operation, and had a fair start, it would work better than the present system.

10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they would husband their means better; and if there were those among them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for them in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty in beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him. At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty.

10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would.

10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on more advantageous terms?-I think he would.

10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it was absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes.

10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for next season?-I should suppose so.

10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one shop?-Yes, it comes to that.

10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly, and you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him a reasonable amount of credit for the support of his family?-I would have no hesitation in doing that at all, and I have done it.

10,535. Even under the old system?-Yes, under the old system. I have done so, from a charitable feeling for the men in their necessities.

10,536. Did you think that in such cases you were likely to be repaid?-In some cases I saw the urgency of the case, and I gave the man supplies from sympathy, whether I might be paid for them or not.

10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because if the men were paid their money I think they would feel more independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the most economical way, and thus be better off.

10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so very much into debt with any merchant as they are at present?- I think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in cases of urgent necessity.

10,539. So that, if these very large accounts were not incurred, the ordinary merchants, fairly competing, would not run so much risk?-I think so.

10,540. Do you think the large credits given by the fish-curing firms tend to increase the risk to the small merchant in the country who does not engage in fishcuring?-It may do so. I know that after the years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight which I have mentioned, or emergencies like that, the merchants, such as Spence & Co., and others, had to lay out a great deal of money from the urgent necessity of the case, and to supply families who were almost starving.

10,541. Has it been your experience that it is difficult for small merchants to begin business and to succeed in Shetland?-I cannot say that I have had much experience of that.

10,542. Are you aware that some merchants have lately been obliged to give up their business in Unst, in consequence of the monopoly which had been obtained by a single firm?-I have heard that stated; but I had a lease of the place where I lived, and that did not apply to me.

10,543. You gave up business voluntarily?-Yes. I found a farm necessary for my family, and I thought I would be better with it.

10,544. Do you think there has been a great improvement in the condition of the people within the last twenty or thirty years?-I think there has been.

10,545. Have they got more money in their hands?-I believe the present year has been a very good one [Page 256] for them; but there were some seasons, a few years back, when it was different. A great deal depends upon the returns from the fishing.

10,546. But, apart from the variableness of seasons-because the seasons have always been variable-and taking the state of Shetland now and twenty or thirty years ago, do you think there has been an improvement for the better?-I cannot say there has been much in the way of improvement. Perhaps there has been some.

10,547. Are the people more independent now than they were then?-I cannot say as to that.

10,548. Do you think they are as dependent now as ever?-I cannot say; the thing is so much fluctuating, because it depends upon a year or two of failure in fishing and blight, and that brings them down.

10,549. About twenty or thirty years ago were not many of the people bound to fish for their landlords or tacksmen?-I think they were. That was the case twenty years ago fully more than it is now.

10,550. At that time they were actually bound by the conditions under which they held their land?-I understand so.

10,551. But now they are told they are free?-Yes. They know now that they are at liberty to fish to whom they please; but I don't know if that was the general notion before.

10,552. That is, that they will not be turned out of their land if they comply with certain regulations on certain estate

10,553. But suppose Mr. Johnston were to start half a dozen boats, would he get them manned?-I don't know whether he would get so many as that, but he might.

10,554. Suppose you were to start half a dozen boats, could you get them manned?-I cannot say.

10,555. Has anybody tried that within the last half dozen years?-I am not aware that it has been tried. I believe the men understood that they were bound to fish for the merchants who supplied them with boats, and who gave them supplies for their families, and they did not like to make a change. But now, when the men know that they have their liberty so far, I suppose they would be inclined to go to the merchant who offered them the highest price for their fish.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN SPENCE, examined.

10,556. You are the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.

10,557. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Sandison and Mr. Mouat?-Yes.