NOTES 1. (continued 10)

2580. Would you not have that profit if the 1s. was spent in your shop?-Yes.

2581. With regard to the lines or receipts which you issue, can you say whether they are generally presented at your shop by the parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are made payable to the bearer, and they may not be presented by these parties.

2582. But, in point of fact, are they generally presented by the parties to whom they have been given out?-It is impossible to know who they have been given out to, or who brings them back.

2583. Then what is the purpose of your keeping this register of them?-It is a check upon the lines. If we had no check of that kind, we would not know what lines were out.

2584. And you would not know what amount was lying out in that way?-No; that is one reason for keeping it. Another thing is, that if a line was lost, and its value paid to another person who had found it, we could see by this book when it was paid.

2585. Could it show to whom it was paid?-No.

2586. I suppose the lines themselves are destroyed when they have been settled for?-Yes.

2587. You have no means of telling from your books, whether they have been presented by the original creditor in them, or by another?-No.

2588. And you don't know about that from your own personal knowledge?-As regards my own personal knowledge, I know that, in the generality of cases, they are presented by the parties to whom they have been given originally.

2589. Does that lead you to conclude that this system of lines is not a new kind of currency that has been generally adopted in Shetland?-I never heard of that.

2590. Does one of these lines pass from hand to hand, in payment for what the creditor in it wants?-Not to my knowledge. It is only now or lately that I have ever heard of such a thing being done.

2591. You have not known of them being transferred to other hands, and being presented by some one from whom the knitter has obtained other goods or services?-There never was any such thing stated to me.

2592. Of course you pay the value of the line to any one who presents it?-Yes. There was a girl, Borthwick, examined here, who said she had to sell her tea at half-price, in order to get other things which she wanted. I spoke to her about it, and said I had never heard of such a thing being done before, and that she must be a great fool to do anything of the kind; for she had come to us and said that she wanted the money, she would have got it upon giving a small discount for it.

2593. Have you actually given money upon that discount when requested?-I have.

2594. That is to say, one of these lines has been presented to you and cash asked for it?-Yes; part cash. I have sometimes given cash on these lines, although it was goods that was bargained for.

2595. The lines bear to be payable in goods?-Yes; but when I saw that the person was really requiring the cash, and that it was not just a 'try-on,' as it were, I took 2d. off the 1s. and paid in cash.

2596. May that have occurred often?-No; very seldom.

2597. Has it been lately?-Yes. I was obliged to make that deduction, because, if I had not done so, it would have opened a door for a system which would have robbed us of every penny of profit. If we were obliged to pay cash instead of goods, we would have no profit at all.

2598. But that has occurred sometimes?-I think it has only occurred twice in the whole of my transactions.

2599. When a discount is taken in that way, how is the entry made in the line-book?-The lines are entered when they are finally paid up. The way in which they are paid does not appear here at all.

2600. Then that discount will not appear in the book?-No; but I may say that I often give small sums of cash on these lines without taking a discount, where I think the person is really in need of it.

2601. I think you said these lines were very seldom given to women whom you employ to knit for you?-Very seldom, I think.

2602. Can you name any of these women who have got them?-I cannot; perhaps Mr. Sandison can. He is more in the way of settling with these people than I am.

2603. Have you any dealings in stockings and the commoner kinds of hosiery?-The price-list will show that.

2604. Is the system of dealing in these just the same as you have already described?-The same principle applies to all the trade.

2605. That kind of goods is generally brought in from the country, I understand?-Yes, generally.

2606. Is it the case that people coming in from the country take goods more readily than the town?-There are very few of the people from the country who ask for cash, but they are now beginning [Page 57] to do it. They think the Truck Commission will force us to give cash.

2607. What is their reason for wanting cash, if they are as well off with goods?-I suppose it is just for same reason, that we all want cash.

2608. But if they get goods, why should they not be content with that?-I don't know. We have no objection to give them cash, if they will only be content to take less of it, on the principle have already explained.

2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters who were coming to sell to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of it?- I have. It would very great deal of bother if they would do so.

2610. What have they said to that proposal?-They have never entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of women employed to knit for us but of women from whom we bought shawls over the counter which corroborates what I have already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names the parties, but I would know their faces at once.

2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Three girls came into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell worth £1. At that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I said to them, 'Now, what would you take for these in money? I am not saying that I will give you money, but what would you take for them in money?' One of them said, 'Oh, I ken you will just be going to give us money.' I said, 'Why? Don't you think the goods you get cost us money?' She said, 'I ken that fine. I will give my 20s. shawl for 18s. 6d.' I said, I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it, and asked her if she would take 17s. She said, 'No,' and that it would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl. I said, 'I don't think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken off.

2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not take money?-No; they did not money; but another one said, 'I would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a plaid in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would it do me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the plaid in exchange for the shawl?' That was her answer to me.

2613. Was one of these women Catherine Leslie?-I think so. Leslie was her surname, but her first name I cannot recollect.

2614. There were some payments made by you to Mary Ann Sinclair for meal. Have you often paid accounts to tradesmen for meal?-Not often for meal.

2615. Or for provisions?-Very seldom. We sometimes pay small sums for such things when the people want them.

2616. But you are not able to say whether these goods are paid for directly to the dealer or through the hands of the women?-We sometimes pay for them to the dealer. For instance, if a woman was due an account to a shoemaker or any other person, and told us to pay a part of it for them, we would do it.

2617. Does the tradesman come to your shop and get the payment?-No; we just settle with him. He may come to the shop for it, or he may not; but it is very seldom that such things happen-so seldom, as not to be worth mentioning. The case of Mary Ann Sinclair to which you referred was just a cash transaction.

2618. You remember that now?-I remember that it was a cash transaction. She had to get cash from us to pay her meal with; but the particulars of the transaction I cannot recollect.

2619. She wanted the meal?-Yes; she wanted it, and we did not have it.

2620. But there were two transactions of that kind which she was concerned; one in which she was paid 11s. 3d. for meal, and another in which the entry is, 'Paid William Smith for meal.' Do you recollect about these transactions?-She had to get her meal from some one; but I really cannot say what took place

2621. I want to know what you think about the way in which these women get their living. Have you anything to say about that?-If Mary Ann Sinclair, or any one of her sisters, had come and said, 'I want so much money for meal,' I would have gone to the counter and given her out the money, and she would have gone to any one she pleased for it; or she might have come when I was out, and she could not get the money; or there might not have been money at the counter at the time; and in that case I would say 'Go over to William Smith and get half a boll of meal, and I will pay him again.' I don't think there was any great breach of honesty in that.

2622. I do not say there was; I only want to know your opinion about the way in which those women supply themselves with provisions. Some of them I find are entirely dependent on the proceeds of their knitting for getting supplies of food; is not that so?-Yes.

2623. Now, if they take all the payment for their knitting, or the greater part of it, in goods, I don't quite see as yet where the money comes from with which they pay for their living. Have you considered that point at all?-I have not. They have never complained to me about it.

2624. Don't they say, when they come to you and beg you to give them a little money rather than goods, that they must have something to live upon?-I never heard that yet. It is very seldom they ask for money.

2625. Many of them live with their parents, and are provided for in that way; and when a woman is married, her husband provides for her; but there are single women in Lerwick, are there not, who depend upon their knitting mostly or entirely for their living, and how do they manage if they are paid almost entirely in goods?- These are the cases I have just been explaining to you. For instance, there are the Sinclair girls.

2626. They come and beg for a little money from you in that way?-Yes.

2627. Are there any others?-There are many others who get a little money.

2628. Who are some of these others?-I really don't know that I can go into the matter more fully than I have done. There are several benevolent ladies in the town who buy knitting from these women. They are not bound to work for us; and these ladies, I suppose, pay them in cash. That is one of the ways in which it may be accounted for.

2629. Do you know whether the women prefer to sell to these ladies or to you?-They have never told me anything about that. They just sell their goods where they think they will get the best bargain; but there is this to be said about it, that if they had not some place like ours, they would not get rid of one half the goods they make. The greater part of our knitters are in the country.

2630. And they knit with their own wool?-Yes.

2631. They are mostly the daughters of labourers, or farmers, or fishermen?-Yes; and they spend their leisure hours in knitting.

2632. You have no knowledge of the fact that there is often a want of food among these knitting women?-I never heard that they were really in want.

2633. Have they not stated that as a reason for your giving them money?-No; they have been very reticent on that point if it is a fact. I should be very sorry to know that there were any poor persons starving when I could help them.

2634. I suppose the character of the Shetland people is such that they don't like to confess their poverty if they can help it?-That may be so. They may be too prudent on that point, for all I know; but I suppose there is a great variety of character here as everywhere else.

2635. Has this been a fair season in the knitting trade?-The season is getting over in some departments. It is generally in the fall that we sell most.

2636. I don't mean for the sales, but for your purchases?-Well, the busy season is getting over.

[Page 58]

2637. I see from your line-book that on December 13th you gave out about 20 of these acknowledgments; on the 14th, about 20 also; 15th, 18; 16th, 17; 17th, 38; 18th, 10; 20th, 24; and on the 21st, 29. Would that be a busy season of the year?-Yes; very busy.

2638. Perhaps during the rest of the year you were not giving out quite so many each day?-Perhaps not.

2639. The dates of payment are all entered in the book, showing how long the lines have been in currency?-Yes; these have not been long in currency.

2640. I see that a great number of them have been paid up on the very day they were issued?-Yes; it was a system which I adopted in order to prevent any mistake or trusting to memory when I purchase a parcel of hosiery from a woman. Instead of trusting to memory, I give her a receipt for it, and she takes it with her. She may go anywhere else she likes, and then she comes back and gets the value of the line from me; it may be on the same day or two days afterwards, or it may be weeks. The greater part of these lines need not have appeared in the book at all, because they were paid up immediately afterwards. We might have kept a memorandum of them in the shop, and the people might have come and got the value afterwards. I believe other merchants do that, but I thought it was better to give the people an acknowledgment for their goods at the moment they brought them in.

2641. Do these lines go mostly to women in the country or in the town?-Just to any person who brings in goods. There is no distinction.

2642. You cannot say that the one class of women get them more commonly than the other?-No; I cannot say that they do.

2643. Is there any other point you wish to speak to?-I wish to refer to a statement made by one of the previous witnesses, Catherine Borthwick. I was present when she said that she could get no cash, and also that there was a time when there was 5s. 6d. due to her, and she had asked me for 1s. which I did not give to her. I had no recollection of the transaction at the time, and I have none still; but on referring to her account, I cannot find any occasion on which she had 5s. 6d. to get when she came to settle. I now show her account, from which it appears that she did get cash.

2644. Do you remember whether her statement referred to a sale of goods or to money that was due to her for knitting?-I understood she referred to transactions she had had in the shop with regard to her knitting. At least that was my impression at the time.

2645. But if it were a sale of goods that she spoke of, that would not be entered in your books at all?-No, not if it were a sale of goods.

2646. Is there any other point you wish to speakto?-I should wish to make a remark or two about the value of a Shetland shawl. It was stated before the last Commission that a Shetland shawl could be made for very little money. I heard Mr. Laurenson's evidence about that, and I was rather surprised to hear that a 30s. shawl could be made for so little as he stated, or anything approaching to it. It certainly has not been my experience. For a 30s. shawl the worsted would cost 10s.; and if Mr. Laurenson meant a real Shetland shawl, I should say it would cost 12s. at any rate. I consider that the prime cost of a Shetland shawl that would bring 30s. would be this: thirty-six cuts at 4d., 12s.; knitting, 14s.; dressing, 6d.-in all, 26s. 6d.

2647. The 30s. at which that shawl would sell in the south would be the price charged by the retail dealer there?-No. I don't know what the retail dealer's charge for it would be.

2648. Then the 30s. is your charge for it?-Yes.

2649. That is 3s. 6d. you would have on it?-Yes.

2650. Is not that a profit?-Well; it is not a very heavy one.

2651. But still there is a profit?-Did I ever say that we had no profit?

2652. I thought you rather made out that the only profit you had was on the goods you sold?-I am speaking here of the cash value of the thing. We don't get our wool for barter; the wool costs us cash

2653. You allow something for interest on the price of the wool?-Yes. I say that is what I would have to pay for a shawl of that value in cash if I were buying it, or if I were trying to get it made.

2654. You would pay 26s. 6d., and you would sell it at 30s.?- Yes.

2655. Do you not call the 3s. 6d. a profit?-I do; but then in that case there is nothing else for a profit.

2656. You are supposing that you pay the 26s. 6d. in cash? If you were paying for the shawl in goods, would you pay 26s. 6d., or anything more?-If I were paying for it in goods, I would pay 30s. There might 6d. less or 6d. more; but as far as my experience goes of this kind of goods, and selling them at a wholesale price, I could not expect to realize a higher price for them than I pay, taking discounts and all together.

2657. What is the kind of evidence you are to give me to prove that there is no profit on a 30s. shawl which you pay for in goods?-I have no evidence to offer as to that.

2658. Except your trade list?-That would be taking a wide view of the thing. It would embrace the whole trade. The case I have given is a special one in contradiction of the statement made, which was a false one that a Shetland shawl could be made at that price.

2659. The list enables you to say what you sell the articles for, and you leave me to find out the price you pay from particular cases?-Yes; and if an examination of my books would help you in that, they are open to you. I am also prepared to give you the names of a number of women who would be able to tell you what prices they get for their goods.

2660. Can you give me any particular kind of goods which you think would be a fair test of that?-You may take the winter shawls, white, brown, and grey, natural colours, and straight borders.

2661. Do you think that would be a fair test?-I think it would.

2662. But there are no entries in your books which will show at what price you bought these shawls?-There may be. If a woman brings in a shawl, and gets so much goods at the time, then the balance only might be marked down, and that would be no guide to you; but at other times the whole price is marked.

2663. That is, where there are credit balances with people who come to you with shawls?-Yes.

2664. Which book will show that?-The day-book or women's ledger.

2665. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I don't think there is anything else.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT LINKLATER, examined.

2666. You carry on business as a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2667. You purchase hosiery, and you keep a stock of drapery goods, and tea, and other articles?-Yes. Tea is the only thing in the grocery line which I keep.

2668. Have you heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses?- Only of the last witness.

2669. Is the manner of conducting business in your establishment similar to that which has been described as being carried on in Mr. Sinclair's?-Very similar; there are some differences.

2670. You deal with knitters of two kinds-women who knit with your wool, and those who sell to you?-Yes.

2671. In both cases are the settlements usually made by means of goods which they take from you?-Yes, principally.

2672. In what proportion is money paid to women who knit with your wool?-I cannot say what the proportion may be.

[Page 59]

2673. But is there a much larger proportion of the prices taken in goods?-Yes, very much larger.

2674. Is it the general rule that it is to be paid in goods?-Yes, it is the understanding that goods are given out.

2675. And that any money that is paid is the exception?-Yes.

2676. Is the dealing with these women usually carried on by means of pass-books?-The greater number of the knitters whom I employ have pass-books.

2677. And these pass-books are transcripts of the accounts kept in your ledger?-Yes.

2678. You ledger, I presume, is kept on the principle of having a page for the account of each woman?-Yes; or sometimes a page for two.

2679. On the one side there are the entries of goods got by the woman, and on the other there are entered the payments due to her for knitting?-There is double money column which shows both the credit and debit on the same side.

2680. How many women do you generally employ to knit for you?-I could not say exactly; but I think there might be over 300.

2681. Are these scattered all over the island?-Yes, all over the country.

2682. Is it a subject of complaint with these women that they do not get payment for their work in money?-No; I have not heard much complaint about that.

2683. The understanding is, that the payment is to be in goods?- Yes, it is the understanding that goods are to be taken when the work is given out; but I give a good deal of money.

2681. Is it considered a matter of favour when a woman gets payment in money when she asks for it?-No, I don't think it.

2685. If a woman asks for money rather than goods, is it given to her as a matter of course?-As a matter of course.

2686. Is that done whenever she asks for money?-As far as my recollection goes, it is. The greater number of the knitters whom I employ live in the country, and they very seldom ask for money. When they come in with their work, I generally ask them what they want, and they select the goods which they require.

2687. Do you know Mrs. Jemima Brown or Tait?-Yes; her sister, Harriet Brown, is the only one I have in my books.

2688. Have you ever told Mrs. Tait, or any of her sisters, that you could not give them money, and that you never did it?-I don't remember doing that. I don't remember any money being asked by them.

2689. Is it likely you said that?-I don't think I said it. I don't think I would say it, if I had goods of hers in my hand.

2690. Did she knit with your wool?-Yes. I have no recollection of her asking for money and being refused.

2691. I suppose a knitter of that kind is not likely to ask for money unless there is a balance coming to her upon her account?-It is not likely, and I think there is rather a balance against her.

2692. Is it a probable thing that you may have refused to give her money?- I don't think I did so.

2693. May your shopman, Mr. Anderson, have done so?-Not so far as I know.

2694. Do you issue any kind of lines or acknowledgments for the balances upon sales made to you?-I give no lines.

2695. If a party comes and sells a shawl to you, and does not wish goods to the whole value of it, what is done?-I understand you to refer to goods bought over the counter; in that case I mark the balance down in a book. If they come with a shawl or any other article, and sell it over the counter, and if they don't wish goods to the whole value, I mark the balance down in any name that is given to me.

2696. In what way is that entered?-It is entered on the back of the day-book by itself.

2697. Is there a special place in the day-book for making entries of that kind?-Yes.

2698. They are put under the particular date?-Yes.

2699. And are these balances generally settled up within a short time afterwards?-Generally.

2700. The party comes back soon to you for goods?-Sometimes soon, and sometimes she delays a good while.

2701. Is it usual for a party who has a balance of that kind to ask to get it in cash?-No; that is not usual at all.

2702. When you buy a shawl in that way, do you consider it to be part of your bargain that the payment is to be taken in goods?- Yes; it is distinctly sold for goods in exchange, and paid for in that way.

2703. Is that because there is a distinct understanding to that effect prevailing among the people, or is it stated at the time when the bargain is made?-It is not stated at the time, but there is a distinct understanding that payment is to be taken in goods.

2704. Will you show me the way in which these balances are entered?-[Produces day-book.]. The entry is merely the name of the party and the amount left. I generally put the date upon the top of the page but not the date for each entry.

2705. Then all these entries at the end of the book are entries of balances due by you?-Yes.

2706. And when a party comes and gets the goods, the balance is marked as 'settled'?-Yes.

2707. Where there is a sum like 3s. 4d. or 7s. 101/2d. due, there must sometimes be a little difficulty in making it square exactly, is there not?-No difficulty whatever.

2708. Is there not a difficulty in getting the exact quantity of goods to answer to that balance?-No, I don't see any difficulty.

2709. The woman may want so many yards of cotton, or a pair of gloves, or a packet of tea, and she may bring up the sum to 7s. 6d. or 7s. 3d., there being 7s. 101/2d. due to her; in such a case, how do you square off the balance?-She always takes the full value of it when she comes to settle.

2710. If the goods she gets come to something more than the balance due to her, does she pay the rest in money?-If it comes to anything more, she either pays it in money, or she may have another piece of goods to sell.

2711. Suppose 7s. 101/2d. is the sum at her credit, and she takes various articles amounting to 7s. 7d., leaving 31/2d. over, might she not have some difficulty in selecting an article to cover that?-No, I don't find any difficulty in that at all.

2712. I suppose you or your shopman can suggest something very easily?-Well, there is always something required.

2713. Have you often been importuned by these women to pay them in money, because they could not supply themselves with the means of living unless they were paid for their work partly in cash?-No; there are many cases where cash is given.

2714. These are cases where the people were in circumstances to require it?-Yes.

2715. And I suppose you are acquainted with these cases?-Yes; I generally know the people who are actually requiring money when they ask for it.

2716. Do people often ask for money in that way?-Not often.

2717. Then there are few of them who are in circumstances to require money?-I should not say that. I think there are many of them who require money.

2718. Do you mean that many of them are in need of money payments for their knitting, in order to provide themselves with the necessaries of life?-In the town there are a good many who at particular seasons of the year have other ways of working outside as well as knitting.

2719. For these, do they get money payments?-Yes.

2720. Or they have friends with whom they live?-Yes; and in the country there are a great many who live with their parents.

2721. But there are some women who depend entirely upon their knitting for a living?-I believe there are.

[Page 60]

2722. You don't know any of them yourself?-I could not mark out any one.

2723. But when you do meet with a woman of that description, and have dealings with her, cash payments must sometimes be made?-Yes; it little cash.

2724. If she takes her goods from you and only little cash, how do you suppose she supplements her means of living?-Just in the way I have stated, by working outside at the proper season of the year.

2725. Is that in the fish-curing business?-There is fish-curing, but there is other work outside besides that.

2726. Do you agree with the preceding witness, that there are two prices for hosiery goods bought-a cash price, and a price when paid in goods?-I very seldom buy goods for cash.

2727. But if you were doing so, would you have two prices?-I would not give the same price in cash as in goods.

2728. Do you also agree with his statement, that where you buy a shawl or other Shetland hosiery for goods, you do not get any profit except the profit which you have upon the goods?-I would not say that.

2729. In pricing a shawl, do you allow a certain margin for your own profit?-There must be that; because we get a very great deal of bad stock, and a good many of the things lie on our hands for a considerable time before we can realize what they cost us, and therefore we must have a margin for profit.

2730. There has been a statement made, that a shawl which sells in the south for 30s. can be made in Shetland for 26s. 6d.; do you agree with that?-Yes; from about 25s. to 26s. 6d.

2731. You think that statement is about correct?-Yes.

2732. Is that the price you would give in cash for such a shawl?-I am not prepared to say that. Until a cash tariff comes in, I could not decidedly say what I would give for it.

2733. Is that because of the rarity of your dealings in cash?-It is not exactly that; I should think that there would be an ordinary profit.

2734. I am speaking of a shawl that would sell in the south for 30s.; would the price you give for that shawl in goods be 26s. 6d.?-No; would be nearer 30s. in goods, perhaps about 28s. 6d.

2735. And if you were to buy it for cash, the price would be from 25s. to 26s.?-Perhaps about 26s.

2736. Then, if a similar shawl were made by your own knitters, how would you calculate the cost of production? would you supply a certain amount of Shetland wool?-Yes.

2737. How much would it require?-I think it would require about 35 or 36 cuts at 4d.-12s.; 13s. for the knitting of the shawl, and 6d. for the dressing; making 25s. 6d. That is for a white shawl, without speaking of dyeing at all.

2738. Do you deal in the commoner hosiery?-Yes.

2739. Is the system pursued in that business the same as you have described?-Yes.

2740. There is no difference that you think worth referring to?- No.

2741. Do you agree generally with Mr. Sinclair on all the other points he has spoken to?-I do.

2742. You have pointed out some differences in answer to my questions with regard to several of the points, but you don't remember anything else on which you incline to differ from him?-No; I think there is very little in which I would be inclined to differ from him.

2743. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I should wish to make one explanation with regard to the evidence given in Edinburgh about the cost of the worsted for a 30s. shawl.

2744. That evidence has already been spoken to by Mr. Laurenson?-I did not hear his evidence.

2745. He stated that the worsted for a 30s. shawl would come to at least 10s.?-If it is Shetland wool, the worsted for a 30s. shawl would cost me about 12s.

2746. If a 30s. shawl is made with any other kind of wool, is there a difference in the cost of the wool?-There would be a difference of about 3s.

2747. The English wool would be about 3s. cheaper?-Yes.

2748. And the shawl would sell for how much?-I suppose for about that much less, or about 27s.

2749. A shawl exactly the same in other respects would be made out of English wool for 3s. less?-Yes; for 2s. or 3s. less.

2750. And it would also sell in the market for 2s. or 3s. less?- Yes.

2751. The knitting in that case would be paid at the same rate?- Yes.

2752. Do you buy much wool in Shetland?-We buy all the fine wool we can get. In fact, we cannot get supplied with as much Shetland wool as we want.

2753. You don't buy it to resell?-No; I just buy it for my own use.

2754. Is it the fact that some of your Shetland hosiery is sold without any profit at all?- There is some of it sold below cost price when it comes to be bad stock.

2755. Are gentlemen's drawers, for instance, sold without a profit?-I think they are sold at no reduction.

2756. Do you make any profit upon them?-Yes, I make a profit.

2757. You sell them south at a higher rate than you pay to the knitters for them?-Yes; at a shade higher, some of them.

2758. I have had evidence today from one gentleman that he bought them and sold them at a lower price. Do you think that is the case?-It is quite possible, and I have known instances of that with myself.

2759. Does that happen with you in some kinds of goods?-Yes; with certain kinds of goods which are produced in larger quantities than are required.

2760. But that over-production does not continue over a long period of time?-It does in the knitting trade with myself. I don't pay off any of the knitters; I keep them on.

2761. Can they not turn their attention to some other kinds of work when there is too much stock of a particular kind?-It is generally lacework, veils or shawls, that I give out for knitting.

2762. But when there is an over-production of that kind of goods, can the knitters not turn their hands to something else?-They do so occasionally.

2763. So that you have not an increasing stock of goods which you cannot sell at a profit?-Very often they cannot get the wool with which to make the coarser sort of goods. It is not to be got, and there is a very large proportion of the Shetland wool sent south, and sold as raw material.

2764. Then the women are restricted to the articles for which they have suitable wool?-Yes; both those who knit for themselves, and those who knit with the wool which we give out.

2765. That is to say, you have not always the kind of wool that you want?-No; we cannot get a sufficient quantity of fine Shetland wool; but I don't give out any wool for making coarse goods, only the lace goods. I don't give out wool for such things as men's underclothing and stockings.

2766. Have you anything else to say?-No; there is nothing more that occurs to me to say.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JAMES TULLOCH, examined.

2767. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-I am.

2768. You keep a drapery store?-Yes.

2769. Do you sell any other goods?-The only grocery goods I sell are tea and soap.

2770. Do you purchase hosiery?-My chief business in it is purchasing it. I have very few knitters employed.

2771. Do you pay them in money or goods?-It is the understanding that they are to be paid in goods; but I often give a few shillings when they ask for it, [Page 61] both when purchasing and when I employ the women to knit. I have only one or two persons knitting for me in Lerwick just now, and not more than three or four that I remember of in the country. My business in that way is mostly done by purchase.

2772. Do your knitters have pass-books?-No; the account with them is just kept in the day-book and ledger.

2773. You have an account in the ledger with each knitter?-Yes.

2774. Does it show what proportion of the payment to the knitter is made in cash?-No. In some cases the price is marked in and sometimes not.

2775. Then how do you know what you have paid if it is not marked?-The transaction is very often carried through without reference to the book at all, particularly in the case of a purchase.

2776. But I am speaking only of those knitters whom you employ. I am quite aware that in sales it generally a transaction that is finished at the time; but in the case of your knitters, how do you know how much is paid to them in cash?-I had many more knitters at one time than I have now, but I have given them up. With regard to the one who is knitting for me just now, I don't remember whether she ever asked me for any cash upon her knitting or not.

2777. Have you only one woman knitting for you just now?-I have only two, and one of them has had no knitting for some time. I don't remember of either of these two having ever asked me for money.

2778. They have an account in your books, and they take goods, and their account is balanced now and again?-Yes.

2779. Do you sell worsted?-No. For the last few months I have had a little of the Pyrenees wool to sell, and I have sold it.

2780. Is that extensively purchased by people who wish to knit?- There seems to be a good deal of it wrought into small articles at present. I have never wrought up any of it.

2781. Is it an article that is sold for cash?-Yes; but sometimes we give it out upon the work that is brought in.

2782. There is no difficulty made about giving it out upon a transaction of that sort?-No; not that kind of it. I never object to give Scotch wool.

2783. But you do object to give the Shetland wool that is purchased for cash?-Yes; we have a profit on the Pyrenees wool.

2784. Why is it called Pyrenees wool?-I don't know. It is sometimes called Scotch wool too.

2785. Is it the practice in your shop to give workers lines for a balance that is due upon goods sold?-Yes.

2786. What is the form of these lines?-I have one or two of them here. (Produces lines.) It is in this form:

'I O U 1s. 3d. in goods. JAMES TULLOCH 3. 1. 72.'

There is a private mark in the corner which is only known to myself, showing the amount; and there is also a private stamp on the corner, as a guarantee for the genuineness of the line.

2787. The other one which you produce is a blank form?-Yes. I keep some of them on hand, ready for filling up.

2788. Can your clerk issue them in your absence?-Yes; he knows the private mark too, and he puts it there.

2789. Do you keep a register of these notes?-No; they are just given out as they are required, and goods are given for them when they are brought in. Sometimes I have given goods for a note which the people said they had lost or torn; but it is only as a matter of convenience for them that they are given at all.

2790. You would rather give the goods to them at once?-Yes. Sometimes lines are given to them when we do not have a particular thing they want; and we also give them out sometimes when we are in a hurry.

2791. Have you ever been asked to give money in return for these lines instead of goods?-I cannot charge my memory just now with any case of that kind, but sometimes it may happen. The lines are only given out for goods purchased, and not for knitting; and several times I have given 5s., and 4s., and 3s., and 2s., and so on, in cash; but if they ask for much money on a shawl, the understanding then is that I shall get it at a little less.

2792. That is arranged at the time of the sale?-Yes.

2793. But suppose the sale is concluded, and one of these lines is given for the balance, do you then understand that the whole sum due is to be taken in goods?-Yes. The reason why I expect to get the shawl for a little less if large part of the price is wanted in money, is because I never consider that I realize above what I pay in goods for my hosiery, and very often there is a heavy discount off. I have heard some of the other evidence which seems to clash a little with that, but I can easily explain it.

2794. What can you explain?-The apparent discrepancy between the value received in goods, and what the articles realize in the market. The hosiery market is a very uneven thing.

2795. If there is anything you can explain on which Mr. Laurenson and Mr. Sinclair have differed, I shall be glad to hear it?-Of course it is not my business to try to reconcile their evidence, but I was about to say that the hosiery market in the south is very irregular. It is done to some extent by a kind of, I can hardly call it favouritism, but there are houses in England that if they begin to buy from one party, they will not afterwards buy from another. If they get a very long credit, they will give a higher price, and I know of persons they are constantly dealing with to whom they will give 9s. or 10s., for an article, while they would only offer 6s. or 7s. for it to another.

2796. Are you now referring to people in the south?-Yes, wholesale dealers. And just as we may happen to get into the good graces of a good customer, so prices vary.

2797. But every article has a different price of its own, I fancy? You cannot price a Shetland shawl without seeing it and judging of it both as to the material and the workmanship?-No; that is quite true.

2798. You cannot get twenty shawls of a certain size at the same price?-No; but we can perhaps select them out of a greater quantity.

2799. But you cannot get twenty shawls made to order exactly of the same value?-No.

2800. What is your reason for carrying on that system of paying in goods?-It has been of old date. It was the practice when I commenced to the trade; but my own impression is that if a money system were adopted, only a very few of the producers would accept of it, because they would, as a consequence and as a general rule, have to take 20 or 25 per cent. less in money than they would get in goods. We buy with the understanding that we are to realize what we pay in goods. As I have said, sometimes for a certain article, or in a good market, a good deal more may be realized; but then we have the risk of loss, and we have a heavy discount; and therefore we have to live by the profit on the goods we sell. If we were to pay in cash, then of course we must buy at a lower rate, so as to give us some profit on the shawl, and consequently if a woman were to come in with a shawl, and to agree that the price was to be 20s. worth of goods, it is not likely that, unless she was very hard up for money, she would take 15s. or 16s.

2801. Can you give me any instance in which you have paid a cash price for a shawl which was lower than what you were willing to give in goods?-I don't recollect any case of that kind just now, except one.

2802. How long ago was that?-Not very long; perhaps a few months.

2803. What were the circumstances of that transaction?-It was one of these fine shawls. I don't know what I would have offered for it, but the person said she would give it to me for £2 in money, and it was agreed that that was to be the bargain. When [Page 62] I saw the shawl, it did not turn out to be quite so good as I had expected. The woman had got £1 of money at the time when the bargain was made, and after that she had taken up some goods out of the shop, and the balance of the price was taken out in goods.

2804. The bargain was made in that case, before the shawl was knitted?-No, the shawl was knitted.

2805. I thought you said, it did not turn out to be quite so good as you expected?-No, it was not quite so good when I came to see it as I expected from hearing of it.

2806. Had you looked at the shawl before you made the bargain?-I had seen her knitting it. I may remark, that very often these goods turn out better than they look when they are in an undressed state, and sometimes much worse.

2807. Have you any objection to adopt a cash system the people are willing to agree to it?-Of course I would have no particular objection; but my own impression is, that a cash system, if adopted, would give a very great check to the sale of goods.

2808. Don't you think it would be better for the merchant?-I don't know. I think a merchant would never risk so much if he had to pay in cash, or push so hard as he does now.

2809. Would the merchant in that case not make sure of getting two profits instead of one?-No, he would not do that.

2810. He would have a profit on his hosiery, because he would buy it at a cash price, and sell it at a price which would pay him for his risk, would he not?-There much competition in the trade already that the price kept up to its utmost point. Indeed, it is kept above what the goods actually realize.

2811. But if a man was depending upon the profit he was to get on his hosiery, he would not pay more for it than he could afford?- Of course he would not; but just as in other businesses, opposition here is sometimes the life of trade, and sometimes it is the death of trade.

2812. How do you apply that principle here?-There is sometimes such a keen competition that people cut up one another.

2813. Do you think the competition, would be so keen that the cash prices for the hosiery would be forced up to the level of the goods prices that are paid now?-That would depend. Those who had the best markets would be able to give the best, price, and no doubt they might by that means be able to drive others comparatively out of the trade.

2814. Is it the case, that you generally send your shawls south at such a figure as leaves you no profit upon them?-Taking it all in all, I never have any profit on certain articles. When I have an opportunity of selling to a private person, or when I get private orders, I generally realize a profit, but when I sell to wholesale merchants taking the thing as a whole, I consider that I have never realized the full price of my goods from the hosiery which I have sold.

2815. Is that one of the reasons which lead you to continue the system of paying in goods?-Of course, the system is quite general.

2816. No doubt; but supposing it were not general, would that be a reason for continuing it in order that you might make a profit out of the goods you give for the hosiery?-Of course I cannot say exactly what it might be, further than that, as I have already stated, we had to pay in cash, we would have to buy at considerably lower rates, and I am not aware that there is such a demand in the south as to enable us to do that.

2817. But you say that at present you do not make a profit upon the goods sent south?-Yes; I say that there is no profit upon the goods sent south, taking it as a general thing. The profit I have is upon the goods which I sell in exchange for the hosiery which I buy.

2818. You say you generally buy shawls: you do not get them knitted for you?-No, I have very few knitted for me.

2819. Suppose you pay 25s. for a shawl, at what price will you invoice that to your southern customer?-Generally, I would just invoice it at about the same price. Sometimes I am obliged to put it lower, but when an article after dressing turns out to be better than I expected, then I may put a shilling or so upon it.

2820. Do you keep an invoice-book?-I keep no invoice-book, but only a day-book and ledger.

2821. The day-book shows the number of shawls you send south, and the prices at which they are invoiced?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, WILLIAM JOHNSTONE, examined.

2822. You are a merchant in Lerwick in the same line of business that is carried on by Mr. Robert Sinclair?-Yes, something similar

2823. You deal in the same articles, and purchase hosiery in the same way?-Yes.

2824. Do you also employ knitters?-Yes.

2825. How many of them do you employ?-I can hardly tell. I have very few just now. I have sometimes had as many as from 30 to 50, but I have not nearly so many at present. I don't think I have a dozen altogether just now.

2826. Do they mostly live in Lerwick?-Yes.

2827. Are these knitters so employed by you paid for their work by taking goods, or do you, sometimes pay them in cash?-They are generally paid by taking goods. If they ask for a little cash at any time, I will give it.

2828. Are their names entered in your books?-Yes.

2829. Has each of them an account in your ledger?-Yes; a small book which I keep for the purpose. [Produces book.] We generally settle for an article when they bring it in, but sometimes there may be a balance on one side or the other.

2830. Does this book show the amount of cash that is paid for the shawls brought in to you?-No. There are many transactions that are never entered here at all.

2831. But does the book show the amount of cash that is paid for shawls which are knitted to order with your own wool?-No; when I give out wool for the knitting of a shawl, no note of it appears in the book at all.

2832. What note do you take of it?-I merely take a memorandum on a piece of paper.

2833. Then you may have a lot of slips of that kind lying beside you?-No. I very likely burn them whenever the shawls are returned, and if I know the woman sufficiently well, I may give the wool to her without keeping any note of it of any kind.

2834. Do you trust to your memory for that?-Yes. I weigh the wool before it goes out.

2835. What proportion of the wages of these workers is paid by you in money?-I cannot say.

2836. Will there be a shilling in the pound paid money?-I cannot say, but I think there will be more than that.

2837. May there be 2s.?-I cannot say exactly. Perhaps if they come with a shawl for which they are to get 8s. or 10s., they may get 1s. or 2s. upon it, but if they did not ask it, they would not get it.

2838. The understanding is that you pay them goods?-Yes.

2839. Are you often asked to give some money?-Very seldom; but whenever they ask for money, they get it, or any other thing I have in the shop.

2840. Can you explain how women who knit for you support themselves if they only get soft goods and tea for their knitting?- There are very few of them who do not do other work. There may be a few who do nothing but knit, but the greater part of the girls and women who employ themselves at knitting have other work to do besides. Some of them sew slop shirts for the agents shops, and various other things.

2841. These are required for the men who go to the whale-fishing?-Yes. [Produces day-book.] The [Page 63] details of the goods sent south are all there. It is only the amount that is posted into the ledger.

2842. What would be the cost of producing this one dozen socks [showing]?-They were bought with barter for exactly the same value of goods as is charged for them there. I have also to be at the expense of dressing them and packing them, and then perhaps lying out of my money for twelve months.

2843. Then you dress them for nothing?-I must dress them for nothing.

2844. Is not that a loss to you?-Yes.

2845. And you must pay yourself for that out of the profit on the goods which you give for them?-Yes.

2846. Is that a common thing in your trade?-I believe it is. Of course there are some of the articles on which there is a profit.

2847. I see here 'One brown half hap shawl, 3s. 9d.:' would there be a profit upon that?-There would not be much; perhaps there would be 8d. on it.

2848. 'One large hap, 18s.:' would you have a profit on that?- Yes; I might have about 2s. That article was made specially to order.

2849. Was it made with, your own wool?-Yes.

2850. 'One white hap, 9s. 6d.?'-There might be about 1s. on that hap.

2851. Was it bought over the counter for goods?-I think that one was made upon an order; but it was paid for by me in goods.

2852. There is another one at 9s. 6d.?-That is one of the same size and of the same colour.

2853. Suppose that 9s. 6d. hap had not been made to order, but had been bought over the counter and had been settled for with goods, what profit do you suppose would have been upon it apart from the goods?-I cannot say.

2854. Was 9s. 6d. the price which you paid to the party selling, or was it somewhat less?-It was 8s. 6d., and I would have a profit of a shilling on it.

2855. That was when it was knitted for you?-Yes.

2856. But I am speaking of articles which were bought by you: what profit would you have upon such an article then?-I could not tell unless I knew the kind of goods they were to take for it.

2857. But apart from the goods altogether, what would you give for a shawl that you would sell for 9s. 6d., if it was offered to you for sale?-Perhaps I might give 9s. 6d. worth or goods.

2858. Would that be the usual way of dealing?-Sometimes it is. It depends very much upon the quality of the article. Sometimes we pay a dear price for them, and at other times we get them pretty cheap.

2859. Do you say that you generally buy an article of that kind at the price payable in goods for which you sell it to the merchant in the south?-Very often we do.

2860. Therefore you take no profit off your hosiery at all?-In some cases we do not. We cannot get it; we are glad to get what we pay in goods for them.

2861. So that the fact that you get your goods disposed of, is the inducement which you have in buying an article over the counter?-Yes.

2862. Is that one of the reasons why this system of dealing in goods continues?-I believe that is the very reason of it, and the scarcity of money.

2863. Do you approve of the system, or would you rather have cash payments?-I would rather have cash payments.

2864. In that case would you not have two profits instead of one? You would make, sure of a profit on the hosiery, as you would be able to pay for it in cash?-Yes.

2865. And would you not have the same profit that you now have on the goods that you give for the hosiery?-I think we might.

2866. Would you not have a smaller profit upon them?-Of course, if we were selling for cash over the counter, we would try to cut the goods as low as we could.

2867. If you were selling your goods for cash over the counter instead of for hosiery, would you reduce your prices?-We could do that quite easily; because often we buy hosiery articles which lie on our hands for years and the moths get into them, and we get nothing for them at all.

2868. Therefore, in consequence of being paid in hosiery you must put a higher price upon the drapery goods and tea that you sell?-I do not put a higher price on them in consequence of that, because I generally charge the same price to those from whom I get hosiery as to those who pay me in cash.

2869. But if there was no such thing as paying hosiery with goods, you could sell your goods a little cheaper, because you must calculate upon a little loss on the hosiery?-Yes.

2870. So that both the customers who pay in hosiery, and those who pay in cash, are made to pay for a possible loss upon the hosiery?-Yes.

2871. In that way they are made to pay rather higher for their goods?-Yes.

2872. Does not that rather show that the system is a source of loss to the whole community?-There is not the slightest doubt about it, but what can we do until things are put upon a better footing.

2873. You would be glad to pay in cash if you could get your goods disposed of?-I would be very glad. For one thing, it would save us a little trouble.

2874. There is a complicated system of bookkeeping entailed by the present system?-There is.

2875. Have you had any balances to settle on lines or acknowledgments or vouchers?-No; I do not give any lines. I have always been against it.

2876. Did you give any formerly?-I gave them very rarely, unless when I could not help it.

2877. That is to say when a person came to sell hosiery to you and she did not want to take the whole price out in goods, you gave her a line?-Yes; if there was a balance then they would want a line for it.

2878. Would they not have preferred money?-They never asked for money; at least very seldom.

2879. How long, is it since you ceased to give these lines?-I have not given any lines for the last two years, or nearly that time, and I just gave them occasionally.

2880. What was your reason for laying down that rule?-Because there was such a great deal of bother about it. At a time when you were busy they would come in and pop down their lines and that is another secret in the line business. Some of the people like to sell shawls and get a line for them and then they go away and give that line to some other person, and that person comes in and orders goods of different kinds and prices them at the lowest rate we can give them for. Then, when they have screwed us down to the lowest price, they throw their line down upon the counter the same as if it were a bank-note.

2881. They do so, after having bargained and bothered with you to get you to reduce your prices, on the footing that they were to pay you in cash?-Yes; and of course you cannot refuse the line when it is offered to you. You must just take it and say nothing.

2882. Was that one of the reasons why you gave up giving lines?- It was not exactly for that I gave it up, but it was one of the reasons, because it was a great annoyance and bother. They would come in with the lines perhaps on mail-day, and bother us then.

2883. But a person might come in with a shawl on mail-day, and wish to take the value of it in goods. What would you do then?-I might tell them to come back again, and they would do it.

2884. Would they not do that if they had a line?-They would take care of that. They would get the goods they wanted, and then they would pop the line in.

2885. Then you think you are under an obligation to serve the people whenever they choose, if they have a line of yours?-Yes.

2886. But if the people have bargained with you, and you had offered them goods at a somewhat lower price for cash, and if a line was then offered to you in the way you have mentioned, would you not refuse to take the line in exchange for the goods?- No, I would not. It would not be right to do it.

[Page 64]

2887. Would you not say,-If you are to pay with a line, you must take the goods at the ordinary price?-I never thought of doing that, and I don't think anybody would do it.

2888. You would not like to have the appearance of drawing back from your bargain?-No; it would not look very well.

2889. Have you heard any of the evidence that has been given to-day?-I was present when Mr. Laurenson was examined, and also during the first part of Mr. Sinclair's examination.

2890. Do you concur generally with the statements which Mr. Laurenson made with regard to the trade in Lerwick?-Yes; I think he gave a very just statement.

2891. You think what he said was generally correct?-I think so.

2892. Do you know how the women who live alone, and entirely by knitting, get their provisions?-I used to keep meal, but I don't do it now. I cannot do it, because it destroyed my place with moths.

2893. Do you know how these women supply themselves with meal now?-I cannot say.

2894. Most of them are likely employed at other work as well as at nitting?-Yes.

2895. But some of them will do nothing else?-There are very few who do nothing else, except those who are in bad health, and who are not able to work outside.

2896. Have you known any of these women taking goods from you and selling them again, in order to get money?-No; I never heard of any one doing that, so far as I know.

2897. But at the time when you gave I O U's they often exchanged them for money?-Yes; or gave them to some other body to come to my shop with them. These are the only cases where I knew of them being exchanged. I heard yesterday, when I was present, that yarn had been refused upon these lines, but I always gave them yarn when they asked it from me.

2898. Did you give them Shetland yarn?-I seldom had it for my own use, but I have often given them Pyrenees wool.

2899. I suppose the reason why the idea has arisen among the knitters that they cannot get wool in exchange for their work, is because Shetland wool is very difficult to get?-I suppose so.

2900. The merchants don't keep it for sale?-No; they cannot get enough of it. I may say that I supply the women with sugar and tea, and with paraffin oil when have it.

2901. I think you are the only soft goods merchant in Lerwick who keeps sugar?-I don't know. Perhaps there are more; but I keep sugar, tea, coffee, rice, and brimstone, which they need for dressing their shawls.

2902. Is it the case that your purchases of hosiery are more commonly paid in tea and sugar than in drapery goods?-The knitters who work to me generally take what tea and sugar they require. They also take drapery goods when they need them. When we buy hosiery over the counter, it is generally drapery goods that are paid for them; but they get tea also if they ask for it.

2903. The tea is made up in quarter-pound parcels?-Yes.

2904. Do you know of any case where it has been exchanged after being purchased from you?-No.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, HUGH LINKLATER, examined.

2905. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2906. Is the business which you carry on similar to that of Mr. Laurenson?-No. I don't give out wool for people to knit. I only purchase a little over the counter, and I do very little of any kind in the fancy line.

2907. You do more in the coarser hosiery?-Yes.

2908. Do you deal largely in that business?-No, I don't do much in hosiery at all.

2909. What is your business?-Selling drapery goods.

2910. Do you sell them in the ordinary way for cash?-Yes, and I take a little hosiery when it is offered in exchange.

2911. But the bulk of your transactions are in cash?-Yes.

2912. Are you engaged in any other business?-No.

2913. Do you concur generally in the evidence which Mr. Laurenson gave, so far as the hosiery business is concerned?-I do. I think he gave a very fair statement of it.

2914. You do not wish to add anything to it?-No, for it is not much that I do in that line. I may say that I don't do any in fancy goods at all, I am not much acquainted with them.

2915. But you have a considerable trade in drapery goods and tea for cash?-Yes, or in exchange for goods. It is principally with country people that I deal.

2916. With small farmers and such like?-Yes.

2917. Do you find that they are generally ready and able to pay you in cash for the goods you sell?-There are some cases where I hate to lie out of it for a good while.

2918. But your general mode of dealing is in cash?-Yes; but if they come forward with an article which is suitable for my hosiery trade, I may take it and give them goods for it, the same as if they were to pay me in cash.

2919. Money payments are the rule in your shop, and hosiery the exception?-Yes.

2920. But when you are offered hosiery, is there a different price charged by you for your I make no difference. I buy their hosiery, such of it as I accept, the same as cash, and I expect to get a cash price for it.

2921. In selling hosiery, do you put a profit upon it?-By no means.

2922. You sell it at the price which you put upon it to the person who brought it?-Yes, so that I can get the price of my goods.

2923. You regard it merely as a currency in which you are paid for your proper drapery goods?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JOHN MANSON, examined.

2924. You were at one time a fisherman at Dunrossness?-Yes.

2925. You are now employed on weekly wages by Mr. Harrison, fish merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.

2926. You cure his fish when they are landed in Bressay?-Yes.

2927. You are his superintendent there and have charge of all his men?-Yes.

2928. How many men are employed under you?-It is generally women and lads who are employed under me.

2929. Is Mr. Harrison a large trader in the home fishing?-Not in the home fishing; principally in the Faroe fishing.

2930. Are his fish from that fishery landed in Bressay?-Yes.

2931. How many people are generally employed there?-The numbers vary according to the demand for work. They may range from 80 to 60 hands daily for five months in the year, during the fish-curing season.

2932. Mr. Harrison has a store in Lerwick, where he sells all kinds of provisions and dry goods?-Yes, he has a provision shop and a clothier's shop; they are different shops.

2933. Do you and the other persons employed in his fish-curing establishment deal at these shops? Do you get your supplies for your families there?-Not generally, unless we choose to do so.

2934. But in point of fact, do you get many of your [Page 65] supplies there?-I buy the greater part of my groceries from that shop.

2935. Is there any obligation upon you to do so?-No.

2936. You have never been told that you ought to do that?-No.

2937. Do you deal at the shop for ready money?-Yes.

2938. You pay for the articles as you get them?-Yes.

2939. How are your wages paid to you?-In cash.

2940. Are you paid at the end of each week?-Yes; unless when the weather prevents us from getting across the Sound, which does not very often occur.

2941. When you or any of your family come over to make your market in Lerwick, and go to Mr. Harrison's shop, do you bring with you the money which has been paid to you in Bressay?-We are paid at Lerwick in Mr. Harrison's office, for our work; and if we choose to go into either of his shops we can do so. We get the cash at the office; and if we go to the shop, we pay that cash for the soft goods or groceries which we get, but we can take the money to any other shop we please.

2942. Is the office near the shop?-The office and the clothier's shop are connected they are both on the same premises.

2943. Do many of the people employed under you deal at these shops?-Not so far as I am aware. They do deal there in a certain way, but not in a compulsory way.

2944. Is there any system of pass-books carried on there?-Not so far as I am aware.

2945. You don't think any of them have pass books at the shop?- I don't think it. I may mention in passing, that very often when we get our wages, instead of being urged to buy from them, are cautioned to use our wages in the most economical way possible, and to go elsewhere if we think we can be better

2946. Who cautioned you in that way?-Mr. Harrison himself. I don't mention that as giving you an idea that there is any grievance in the way of our not getting as good remuneration for our money in these shops as we do elsewhere, but to show the independence of the service. We are in no way bound.

2947. I know that you have not come here because you have any complaint at all?-No; I have no complaint to make in that way.

2948. Do you find the supplies which you get in these shops to be quite satisfactory?-Quite satisfactory.

2949. Do you know anything with regard to the dealings at that store of men employed, in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, a little.

2950. Is that from your own personal knowledge, or merely from hearsay?-A little from my own personal knowledge. I know the way in which the men deal with regard to getting their outfit when the fishing commences.

2951. You know that they go to the store for their outfit and that is put down in a ledger account against each man?-Yes, each man has generally a private account for himself.

2952. The contract for the Faroe fishing is that the fisherman makes certain supplies for the ship, and he is to get one half of the take?-Yes.

2953. Is the price for the fish fixed at the beginning of the season or at the end?-At the end.

2954. And no fisherman knows the price he is to get until the settlement time comes round?-Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned.

2955. During the absence of the fisherman at the fishing, are his family generally supplied with goods from the employer's store?- Generally; if the family are in circumstances to require supplies. Plenty of them do not require them, but those who do are supplied in that way.

2956. Do you mean that they are supplied with goods?-They are supplied with goods and cash.

2957. How does it happen that some of them do not require supplies?-A few of them live in the country, and have little patches of land, and they do not require so much goods during the season as others.

2958. Do you know the way in which the business is conducted as between these fishermen and the store?-So far as I know, they get what they ask.

2959. Do they get what money they ask?-They get money or goods, whatever they ask.

2960. And an account runs, which is settled at the end of the year?-Yes.

2961. Is there any obligation on these Faroe fishermen to deal at the store?-Not so far as I am aware.

2962. Are they not obliged to deal there for their outfit?-It is generally understood that they will take their outfit there, because it is more like giving them an advance of money than anything else.

2963. What is the name of Mr. Harrison's store-keeper in Lerwick?-There is no special storekeeper; he has several shopkeepers.

2964. But who attends to the shop?-James Mouat is in the clothier's shop.

2965. Who gives out the stores to the fishermen for their outfit?- Mouat generally gives them anything in the way of soft goods, and Gilbert Harrison, junr. supplies them with what they require in the provision shop.

2966. However you have not much experience of that part of the business?-Not much.

2967. I suppose you don't know much about Dunrossness at present?-Not much just now; it is ten years since I was a regular resident there.

2968. Have you been there lately?-It is about twelve months since I was there last.

2969. Have you relations living there still?-Yes. I have brothers there.

2970. What was the reason for your leaving Dunrossness?- Because I thought I could better myself elsewhere.

2971. Had you a farm there?-Yes.

2972. Have you one here?-No.

2973. When you were at Dunrossness, were you bound to fish to any particular person?-No; I happened not to be bound at that time, but I was singular in that respect because there were not many who were not bound.

2974. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a fisherman not to be able to fish for any one he likes?-It is quite common where the landlord is also a fishcurer.

2975. Can you tell me any men who are so bound in any part of the islands?-I think that generally the tenants on the estates of Mr Grierson and Mr. Bruce are bound to fish for their landlords.

2976. You don't know any other case within your own knowledge where a fisherman has been checked for fishing to another than his landlord or tacksman?-No, not within my own knowledge.

2977. Nor for taking goods from a store other than that of his landlord, or employer?-No; I understand that is the case in other parts of Shetland, but only from report. I don't know it from personal knowledge.

<Adjourned>.

[Page 66]

Lerwick: Saturday, January 6, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

MALCOLM MALCOLMSON, examined

2978. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick?-I am.

2979. Do you hold land there?-My father holds land under Mr. Bruce of Simbister.

2980. Robert Mouat was formerly tacksman of Channerwick and Levenwick under Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

2981. He carried on a fish-curing business there up till last year?- Yes.

2982. During the time he held the tack, were the tenants there in use to fish for and deliver their fish to Mouat?-Yes.

2983. Was it supposed that there was an obligation on them to deliver their fish to him only?-Yes; they thought so.

2984. Was it the case that there was such an obligation?-It was not, but in their ignorance, they did not know otherwise.

2985. How do you know it was not the case?-Because afterwards, when he was put out of the place, Mr. Bruce, the proprietor, told them they never were bound to Mouat; only that if he gave them as high a price as was given in the country, and served them as well in every respect as they could be served anywhere else, why should they not fish to him as well as to another? If, however, Mouat came anything short of that, then they were under no obligation whatever, but they could put their produce where they pleased, and they had only to pay him their rent on a given day.

2986. When did Mr. Bruce tell you that?-In 1871.

2987. Had he never told you so before?-He never told the tenants that before. He had given a statement to Mouat before, but Mouat never revealed it to the tenantry until after his departure; and then it was known, and only then, how matters stood.

2988. To whom did Mr. Bruce make that statement? Was it in writing, or to some particular person?-I could not exactly answer that for I have never seen the statement myself. It is only from hearsay among the tenantry at large that I know about it.

2989. Have you heard that from many of the tenants?-Yes, from many.

2990. What is your father's name?-Malcom Malcolmson. He is unable to come here, unless it is absolutely necessary.

2991. Is he not in good health?-No; not at present.

2992. Was it the practice in Mouat's time to require the tenants to deliver their fish to him only?-Yes.

2993. Did he object to their selling them to others?-Yes.

2994. Did he turn out any people for doing so, or threaten to turn them out?-He threatened a few, and turned out one

2995. Who was that one?-Henry Sinclair, Levenwick.

2996. Was that a long time ago?-Yes; a few years ago. I don't remember the number of years in particular but it is a good while ago.

2997. You have given me a letter in these terms:

'MOUL, 18<th Jan>. 1869. 'Mr. Malcolm Malcolmson. 'Dear Sir,-I am sorrey to think that I shoud hav met to-day what I have, but you will be pleased to lok out for A place at Martamas 1869, 'ROBT. MOUAT, 'as I am goen to set your land.'

What had he met that day?-He had received intelligence from his storekeeper at Channerwick that Malcolm Malcolmson's son (that is myself) had given part of the fish of Thomas Jamieson's boat to another fish-merchant, Thomas Tulloch, in Sandwick parish.

2998. Does Tulloch live in Sandwick?-Yes, near Sand Lodge.

2999. He keeps a shop and cures fish there?-Yes.

3000. How do you know that that was the reason for this letter being written?-Because Mouat told my father himself in my presence.

3001. Was that before or after the letter was received?-It was after the letter was received, and when my father asked the reason why he was to give his land to another.

3002. Was your father put out of the farm at that time?-He was not.

3003. How did that happen?-Because he lost the use of one of his hands or of his right thumb, and Mouat had a sort of sympathy with him as being unable to earn his bread as he used to do before, and therefore he let him alone for a season until he could get round again, and regain perfect health and strength, but before that season rolled round, Mouat was out the place himself.

3004. Did you consider yourselves bound to take goods from Mouat's store?-We could not do anything else.

3005. Why?-Because we had no money to purchase them with from other stores. We received no money during the fishing season.

3006. Did you ever ask for advances of money during the fishing season?-Yes; but they were refused.

3007. Why?-Because he just would not give it. He gave no reason, except that he could not give it.

3008. But you would get any kind of goods you wanted?-Yes.

3009. What was the quality of the goods at Mouats' store?-They were of a very inferior quality to what we could purchase anywhere else in the island.

3010. Are you speaking just now from your own knowledge, or from the common understanding of the people about?-I am speaking from nothing else but my own knowledge.

3011. But are you a good judge of the quality of goods?-I cannot say that I am a very good judge, only I know well enough a bad article from a good one.

3012. What particular thing are you speaking of just now?-Say cottons, moleskins, and cloth.

3013. And what as to the provisions?-They were of inferior quality as well. We had meal from his store which he called his second flour. It was as dear, if not dearer, than we could purchase it anywhere else, and it was of such a quality that it could not be eaten by human beings.

3014. Then you did not eat it?-It had to be eaten for the support of life, while it existed; but had it not been for the provisions that came from other stores, and from people who had them to sell, Mouat's tenantry could not have been alive now, and I among the rest.

3015. How could they get provisions from other stores if they had no money to purchase them with?-They made a statement of how they were situated under Mouat, and how they could not receive any meal at all, and that they had to give all their fish to him; and the other shopkeepers felt such sympathy for them, that they gave them supplies to save their own lives and the lives of their families, and to put the men to the fishing. At the same time, when they gave them these supplies, they had no expectation whatever of receiving anything for them from a good many, because they were so poor that they could not give it.

3016. Do you think the storekeepers gave the fisher [Page 67] men credit, without any expectation of being repaid?-One of the shopkeepers told me so himself.

3017. Who was that?-James Smith, Hill Cottage, Sandwick parish.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, WILLIAM MANSON, examined.

3018. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick, in Sandwick parish?- Yes.

3019. Do you hold a piece of land under Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.

3020. It was formerly included in the tack to Robert Mouat?-Yes.

3021. Were you bound to fish for Mouat?-Yes.

3022. Did you give your fish to any other merchant during the time of his tack?-Yes. In 1870, the year that Mouat failed in business, I gave my fish to James Smith, because I saw I could not live for want of meal, and therefore I and some others were determined to give our fish where we could get both meat and money; and for doing so, Mouat served me with a summons.

3023. Were Smith and Tulloch the only fish merchants in that neighbourhood besides Mouat?-Yes; they cure fish, but not in a large way.

3024. But they buy your fish, and sell you provisions and goods?- Yes.

3025. In consequence of selling your fish to Smith, did you receive a letter from Mouat?-Yes; I have lost that letter.

3026. Did it warn you that you were to leave your ground?-Yes.

3027. Did you also get a formal warning to quit?-I did. I have it. [Produces summons of removing.]

3028. This is a summons at the instance of Robert Mouat, residing in Lerwick, principal tenant under Robert Bruce, Esq. of Simbister, dated 29th September 1870, giving you warning to leave at Martinmas: was that summons served upon you by a sheriff officer?-Yes.

3029. Did you leave in consequence of it?-No; it was in the latter part of the harvest that I received it, which was a very inconvenient time for me to leave, and I went to Mouat and spoke to him about it. He told me that if I would promise to be an obedient tenant, and agree to fish for him the same as I had been doing before, and pay the expense of the summons, I could stay. I knew that it was then coming towards the end of his lease, and I agreed to do that. If I had thought he was to continue longer on the place, I would have left.

3030. Did you pay for the summons?-I did.

3031. You have handed me another letter in the following terms:

'MOUL, 1869, <Jan>. 18<th>. 'THOMAS JAMIESON. 'LAURANCE MALCOLMSON. 'WILLIAM MANSON. 'WILLIAM MOUAT.

'I this day duly give you notice to look out for A house at Martamas 1869, as I am not incline to keep such men as you for your preasent condick.

'ROBERT MOUAT.'

3032. What does that letter refer to?-It was sent to us because we had allowed Malcolm Malcolmson to give his share of the fish away to another merchant than Mouat.

3033. You understood Mouat to refer to Malcolmson having sold, his fish to Tulloch?-Yes.

3034. This letter was written at an earlier period than the warning you received yourself?-Yes, the year before.

3035. How do you know it was that particular act on your part which caused this letter to be written?-Because Mouat told me so himself.

3036. When did he tell you so?-That same year, just a few days after the letter was written

3037. How was it that you did not leave your ground at that time?-We just never minded him, but went on as we had been doing. I and the rest of the men fished for him, and that man fished for Thomas Tulloch as he had been doing, and Mouat never asked anything about it afterwards. He just annulled the letter, as it were.

3038. You have produced another summons of removing: what does it refer to?-It is the summons that was served upon another man, Thomas Jamieson, at the same time that the summons was served upon me, and for the same thing. He knew that I was coming here, and he wanted me to bring his summons also, that I might show it to you. He had also fished for James Smith in 1870.

3039. Have you anything to say about Mouat's shop?-It was very little worth.

3040. Did you get all your goods there?-Yes.

3041. Were you obliged to take them there?-We were because we could not get them anywhere else.

3042. Did Mouat tell you that you must take them from him?-He did not say that we must take them; but when we were fishing for him, and getting no money, we were obliged to go and take our goods from his shop. Although they had been double the price of what they were anywhere else, we had no other way of doing. We could not make a better of it.

3043. You think the quality of the articles you got there was not good?-It was not.

3044. The meal especially was bad?-Yes; the meal was worst.

3045. Was the tea good?-No; it was bad, and it was dear.

3046. For whom were you fishing last year?-For James Smith.

3047. Are you perfectly at liberty now to fish for any one you please?-Yes, we are at perfect liberty.

3048. Smith is not a tacksman?-No; he just takes our fish, and pays us well for them, as high as can be got in the place.

3049. Do you deal at Smith's shop?-Yes.

3050. And you settle with him annually?-Yes; I have just settled with him this week.

3051. Had you a balance to receive from him?-Yes; £4, 14s.

3052. That was your balance of the season's fishing, after deducting the price of the goods you had got during the season from his shop?-Yes.

3053. Is that a usual balance in a good season, or is it under or over?-It is just about the general thing.

3054. Was that paid to you in cash?-Yes.

3055. You paid your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

3056. Have Hay & Co. any fish-curing places in that neighbourhood?-No, they have a place down at Dunrossness, but that is a long way from us.

3057. You are not expected to fish for them?-No; we have heard nothing about that yet.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT ANDERSON, examined.

3058. You are principal shopman to Mr. Robert Linklater, merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.

3059. I understand you desire to make some explanation with regard to the evidence of two women who were examined here?- Yes; of Margaret Tulloch, and of Mrs. Thomas Anderson, Margaret Tulloch said she refused to take worsted from us to knit, because she could not get cash for her work. I have to state that we refused to give her work because she kept it so very long; and when she was asked why she had kept it so long, she said she had so many lodgers, that she had scarcely any time for knitting. The last thing she had from us was a small handkerchief, the knitting of which was worth 1s. 6d., and which could easily be [Page 68] made in three days. She had it in hand for two days short of five months. Mrs. Anderson made the same remark, that she would not take worsted, because she could not get cash for her knitting. I have the same explanation to make with regard to her, that we refused her work because kept it too long. She got a little shawl to knit on 28d February 1870, and she returned it to use on 14th June. The knitting of it cost 2s.

3060. You find that from your work-book?-Yes. When we asked her why she kept the work so long, she replied that she had so much out-door work to do, that she had scarcely any time for knitting. Then there was one of the girls Brown, Mrs. Tait, who was examined the first day, and who said, I think, that I would not give her cash, but would only give it to my favourites. There are some sisters of that family, and the book was in name of one of the sisters. I only recollect her asking me once for a shilling, which I gave her.

3061. If she got cash, would it not appear in the book?-Yes.

3062. Did she sometimes deal with you in the way of selling her hosiery?-No.

3063. She always knitted for you?-Yes. On 2d July 1869 there is cash 1s. marked: that is the only time I recollect her asking it; and she got it, although I may have made the remark when handing it to her, that we were not in the habit of giving cash. I did not refuse it for all that, but in the act of handing it I may have made that remark.

3064. Mr. Linklater stated that there are about 300 people knitting for him: are the names of all these parties entered in your work-book in separate accounts?-Yes. [Produces work-book.]

3065. Will you show me the way, you make settlement with one of your workers?-Here [showing] is the case of Mary Henry, a country girl.

3066. Is that a good enough instance of it?-Yes. She brings in ten veils, and she has to get 1s. each for knitting them. That is entered to her credit. She will ask what she is to get, and we tell her. Then she will take whatever she wants at that time. She may have sent the veils in with another girl, and come in afterwards herself to get the goods.

3067. I see she has taken out 17s. 41/2d., worth in goods?-She had taken out the amount she had to get, and she brought in other ten veils afterwards, the date of which I find is not marked. Then she asked what she had to get, and she was told it was 4s. 111/2d. We would ask her if she was to settle for that, and she said yes, and we marked it settled.

3068. Was that 4s. 111/2d, which is marked as the balance due to her, paid in cash or got in goods?-It was got in goods entirely.

3069. The items of that do not appear here?-No. When we are busy we scarcely have time to enter all the items; but at other times, when we are not so busy, we enter them all.