NOTES 1. (continued 28)

10,962. Did that occur last year or the year before?-No; it has not occurred for it year or two, but five years ago it occurred in the case of the 'Jan Mayen.' The first year she was a steamer, which was five years ago, she had to go short-handed, because the men were so scarce.

10,963. Do you know of any other ships which have had to go to the fishing short-handed?-They have gone short-handed, although I could not just remember them. I know that in 1854 or 1855 a number of them were short-handed.

10,964. Was there any particular reason why that was the case in 1854 and 1855?-There were more ships than men. I believe the Russian war was the principal cause of it.

10,965. Had a number of Shetland men gone into the navy at that time?-They had gone south, not perhaps into the navy; but there was it great demand for men in the merchant trade. For the last two or three years, also, the men have not been in excess. When the ships were done, the men were generally done too, so that they were about equally matched.

10,966. You refer to the statement in the Report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man?'- Yes; I deny that most emphatically.

10,967. Is it the case that the men generally get what outfit they require at the shop of the merchant engaging them?-It is generally the case, but we engage plenty of men who go elsewhere to buy their goods. They are good men, and we are glad to get them back again. We never care a straw about whether they buy goods from us or not.

10,968. Are these men who have money of their own?-Yes. We give them their first month's advance in money, and they can go where they like.

10,969. What proportion of the men spend their month's advance elsewhere?-I don't think there is large proportion of them who do that. We generally find that we get on pretty well with the men, and that they prefer buying their goods from us. They tell us, but I don't know for the truth of it, that they get better value in our place than they get elsewhere.

10,970. Suppose a man gets his outfit from another agent, or from another shop, and comes back to you next year, is there any note kept of him having done so?-Never. There are several men who do that regularly, and we never quarrel them for it. They are good men and we don't like to lose sight of them for the sake of their custom. We always like to get hold a good man whether we get his custom or not and therefore we never quarrel with them on that account.

10,971. Suppose a man is in your debt at the beginning of the year, is he likely to go and get his supplies from another shop?-I could not say about that; but debt does not constitute any hold over him at all.

10,972. Do you know any case of a man in your debt at the beginning of the year having gone and got his supplies from another merchant?-I believe he would take part from us and part from others.

10,973. But do you know any case of that kind where the man went to another merchant for his supplies?-I could not point to any case.

10,974. Does any communication take place between different shipping agents with regard to the men who are in debt?-Not now. Formerly we used to hand our accounts from one to the other.

10,975. Did you exchange lists of the indebted men?-There were lists given for the other agents to try to recover the debts for us if possible.

10,976. Was that done with the view of obtaining payment from the agent by whom the men were engaged of a debt due to another merchant incurred in previous years?-Yes; but it was only done with the man's consent. Sometimes we recovered it, and sometimes not.

10,977. When you say that it was done with the man's consent, do you mean that at settling time the agent, who was aware that you were a creditor of the man, would arrange with him to hand over part of his wages to his former creditor?-Quite so, if the man was willing to do so.

10,978. The agent might advise him to do that, but not compel him?-He never could compel him. He would simply ask him if he chose to pay the claim; and if he chose not to pay it, there was no compulsion whatever.

10,979. Did you ever know of a man refusing to do that?-Very often.

10,980. In that case I presume that since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854, there were no means compelling payment?-None; except, of course, that he could be taken to the Small Debt Court.

10,981. And there was no security, no lien on the men's wages?- None whatever. There never was that at any time. It was purely with his own consent if the money was used for paying another agent's account,

10,982. How long is it since these lists were interchanged between the agents in Lerwick?-It was previous to 1854. Perhaps there may have been some handed since then; one agent may have handed his accounts to another, in order to get recovery of them.

10,983. You say you have been nineteen years with Mr. Leask, and therefore these lists must have been interchanged within your time?-Yes; I was first employed in 1853.

10,984. Do you say that there have been no lists of that kind exchanged, and no information communicated with regard to the men's debts, since 1853 or 1854?-I don't remember any since 1854: there may have been, but I don't remember handing any lists or receiving any lists since that time.

10,985. Or receiving any information at all with regard to the debts of the men?-Not since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854.

10,986. Why do you fix that date?-Because at that date it became compulsory to have the men shipped and discharged before the shipping master.

10,987. Has that always been done since 1854?-Not always. It was done I think, in 1854 and 1855, and it was not done again until 1867. In that year it commenced again, and the wages were all paid down in presence of the shipping master.

10,988. But if the Act was not observed with regard to the payment of wages in presence of the shipping master, how did it interfere with the passing of these lists?-The practice was given up.

10,989. At that time was it the practice for the men [Page 269] to receive payment of their wages at the agent's office?-Yes.

10,990. Was that done during all the period from 1854 down to 1867?-Yes, but not including 1867.

10,991. Can you say that, during that period you retained no portion of any man's wages for debt of another agent?-It is quite possible we may have done so, but I don't recollect.

10,992. I suppose your books will show whether any portion of a man's wages was so retained?-Yes.

10,993. Do you remember any case in which that was done?-I don't remember any particular case, but it is quite possible; in fact, it is even probable.

10,994. Do you think that some retentions of that kind took place every year?-I don't think so. Of course, if a man gave an order on Mr Leask to pay a debt or an account for him, he was bound to pay it if the man had funds in his hand. I have seen that done- that a seaman gave a special order in favour of another agent or another party.

10,995. Is that done frequently?-Not very often, but it is done sometimes.

10,996. Is it done by the man of his own accord?-Decidedly.

10,997. But probably at the request of the other agent?-I don't know about that. For instance, instead of getting money from the seaman, he might get an order on the agent, the same as he might get an order on the bank.

10,998. But the other agent who was the creditor of the seaman does not know necessarily that you have money belonging to the man in your hands as agent?-Not unless the man tells him.

10,999. Do you not still pass lists each year from one agent to another, stating the sums which are due to you by the men?-No.

11,000. I do not speak merely of seamen indebted to you; but do you not pass lists of all seamen whom you engage for the whaling?-Not at all. We have no occasion to do that, because it could serve no purpose whatever.

11,001. Why?-Because an agent who had a seaman in his books as a debtor would know at once whether that man was engaged by another agent in a particular year.

11,002. Is it the practice for one agent to be allowed to inspect the lists or books of another, in order to ascertain what seamen have been engaged?-I never did that or saw it done.

11,003. I suppose there are means of finding out in a small place like Lerwick what seamen in a particular year have been engaged?-We sometimes found it out in the Shipping Office. Whenever we wanted to see where a man was, we went there.

11,004. Can you state distinctly that in every case where such an order is presented for payment of a seaman's debt, it is presented without any previous communication between the agents?-I suppose it always is, but I don't know. The one agent has no interest whatever in recovering debts for the other; he gets no

remuneration for it.

11,005. If that is the case, why does he not refuse to honour the order?-I would not dishonour the order if the man had funds in our hands.

11,006. But the Merchant Shipping Act requires that all wages shall be paid, not in that way, not in obedience to any order, but in the presence of the shipping master in hard cash?-That is true; but it still allows a man to pay his debts.

11,007. Should not the agent leave him to pay his debts himself, and so obey the law?-It is merely as an accommodation to the seaman that we pay his debt for him, and we trust to his honesty that he will repay it to us.

11,008. But still, on the part both of the agent and of the seaman, is not that an infringement of the law?-No, it is not an infringement.

11,009. Does not the law require the whole wages, without any deductions other than those specified in the Act to be paid over in presence of the shipping master?-Yes, and that is always done.

11,010. If that is so, how is it possible, for you in obedience to such an order to retain the man's wages?-I do not retain them. The man comes back and repays his debt.

11,011. Then that is not retention in obedience to an order?-It is not retention: there has been no retention since 1867. Every man, since then has got his money in the Shipping Office, and those who had accounts in the shop came back and paid them.

11,012. Then how did it happen that you spoke of these orders being implemented?-I was referring to the period before 1867.

11,013. Your statement now is, that no such orders have been given, or acted upon since 1867?-They may have been given, but there have been no deductions from the seaman's wages since then, except the captain's account, the first month's advance, and the allotments. With these exceptions, the whole money was paid down to the seaman in the Shipping Office, and when he had an account in the shop he came and paid it.

11,014. Will your books show that?-Yes.

11,015. In what way do, your books prove it?-I request that the shipping master be called upon to prove it.

11,016. To prove what?-To prove that the men get their wages in money in the Shipping Office.

11,017. I intend to call Mr. Gatherer to prove that but you have come forward in order to contradict Mr. Hamilton's report, and the question I asked is, in what way do your books prove that no such orders have been honoured since 1867?-Mr. Gatherer will prove that since 1867 the men have got their wages paid down to them in money.

11,018. Am I to record that your books do not prove that?-They do not prove that. I want the shipping master to prove it.

11,019 Then your books will not prove that all the wages have been paid to the men in cash, and that no sum has been retained in obedience to a seaman's order?-That can be proved by the shipping master.

11,020. But your books do not prove it?-We have accounts with the seamen, and when they get their wages, they invariably come back and settle these accounts. We do not retain anything; we invariably pay them the whole money that is due to them, and they can either come back or not as they choose.

11,021. Who is it that hands over the money to the men on behalf of Mr. Leask in presence of the shipping master?-It is generally Mr. Andrew Jamieson, and sometimes myself. One of us attends at the Shipping Office along with the men, and hands over their cash to them in presence of the shipping master.

11,022. Do you generally find that a seaman comes down to your office immediately after he has been paid, and settles any account that he is due?-We generally find that that is the case; in fact, always when they have accounts they come down and settle them.

11,023. Have you known any exceptions to that rule?-I have only known one man who tried not to come down and settle his account.

11,024. Who was he?-He was a lad belonging to Lunnasting, named Robert Grains. He declined to come down and settle his account but he afterwards came on the same day. I think that occurred two years ago.

11,025. When was he asked to come?-I suppose he never was asked particularly; but it is understood that every man has to pay his debt when he is able.

11,026. But you say that he declined?-I believe he declined on the ground that he required the money. I don't know whether he was asked to come or whether he merely said of his own accord that he would not be able to pay his account just now, as he required the money.

11,027. Was that done in your presence?-No; it was in Mr. Jamieson's.

11,028. Did you see the man when he came back to the office?-I don't remember seeing him. It was Mr. Jamieson who told me of the circumstance.

11,029. When a man comes down to settle after receiving [Page 270] his money at the Shipping Office does he hand over the whole money into your hands, or does he merely settle the amount of his account?-He sometimes does the one way and sometimes the other.

11,030. Sometimes he may hand over the whole money for you to settle with him?-Yes; and at other times he asks what he is due.

11,031. When he hands over the whole money to you, does it ever happen that the accounts of another shipping agent are settled at the same time in your office-It has not happened since 1867.

11,032. Is there anything in the state of the law to prevent that from being done if the man has got his cash at the Shipping Office?-I don't think there is.

11,033. Then why has it never been done since 1867?-I don't know; it has just happened so.

11,034. Was that done regularly previous to 1867?-A few instances might have occurred, but it was not very general practice at all.

11,035. In what way before that time did you know that a man was owing another agent unless you had the sum intimated to you by that agent, or had lists exchanged?-The agent very likely ascertained when the man was to settle and came along.

11,036. He had ascertained where the man was employed?-Yes, in what ship.

11,037. Did he do that by means of information obtained at the Custom House?-Possibly he might.

11,038. Was it not by information obtained from the agent who employed the man?-It was possibly from the Custom House, or from some other party.

11,039. But it might have been from the agent who engaged the man?-It is quite possible.

11,040. Was it not a regular practice to give information of that sort?-No.

11,041. Was such an arrangement made more commonly when the man was pretty deep in debt?-Yes.

11,042. The agent in whose books he had run up a considerable debt would look sharper after him, and would make inquiries at the other agent by whom he was employed?-Yes.

11,043. So that at least to that extent there was regular system of communication between the agents?-It was not done to any great extent; it was merely trifling. There were not so many men in debt as to make it a common practice.

11,044. It might come to something considerable where several hundreds of men were engaged in the whale fishing?-Yes; but when they were divided among four agents there would not be many.

11,045. But last year you engaged 280 men yourselves?-Yes.

11,046. And in some years the number of men employed in the sealing and whaling would be greater?-Yes. I think we employed about 500 in 1853.

11,047. So that among 500 men employed by you it was very probable that a considerable number should be in your debt?-I don't think there were many of them indebted at all. Last year there were very few indeed.

11,048. But in past years there may have been a very considerable number when you had 500 or 600 men engaged?-When the fishing proved a failure the debts would be very considerable.

11,049. In going through Mr. Hamilton's Report, you have omitted a sentence in which he says: 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents, or, in other words, for the agent to undertake to pay to himself part of the seaman's wages.' Is it quite common for the allotment notes to be made out in favour of the agents?-Yes, it was quite common.

11,050. Is it sometimes done still?-We have never done it in Mr. Leask's office but I believe it has been done elsewhere.

11,051. Why was it never done in Mr. Leask's office?-We just trusted to the men's honesty.

11,052. Have you never taken an allotment note, in which the party to whom it was payable was, not Mr. Leask, but some one in his office?-We never took out allotment notes at all.

11,053. When you engage a man, does he not generally take an allotment note?-Not generally.

11,054. Does he do it at all?-Not at all.

11,055. He gets his supplies from you without any allotment note?-Yes; without us having any guarantee at all. We have advanced both goods and money, to great extent, without any allotment note.

11,056. But in these cases you were aware that he had no allotment note?-We have never issued any allotment notes for the last six years, except, perhaps, in a very rare case. We may have given one or so.

11,057. Of course, you would not have advanced him the money had there been an allotment note left in the hands of his with or other relations, which they were entitled to draw from you?-We would have advanced money to parties whom we knew.

11,058. Have you frequently given money to a seaman's family during his absence?-Yes.

11,059. But more frequently supplies?-Not more frequently. It was just as they wished it. If they wished supplies they got them, but we did not wish them to take them.

11,060. What further observation have you to make on Mr. Hamilton's Report?-Towards the end he says that the men employed are not free agents. I deny that. I say they are free agents, and that they are at perfect liberty, so far as my experience goes. They can engage with whoever they please, and take their supplies anywhere they please.

11,061. In denying that statement, do you intend your denial to be applicable both to the men who are in your debt and to those who are clear?-Decidedly. The debt constitutes no hold whatever over the men.

11,062. Even where the man has a family, and is resident in Shetland?-Yes, even then.

11,063. And even where he is a tenant of Mr. Leask, if that happens to be the case?-Yes. Even in that case he may go where he pleases. I never yet saw Mr. Leask compel a man in any way. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'While the men employed are not free agents, however fair an employer may desire to be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, the employer wishes to make all he can out of those he employs, and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the results of their labour.' That also I deny. There is an insinuation there that the employers do not do what is right; and I think the word 'appropriating' does not look very well; but it is not correct. The Shetland people, in general, are pretty well able to take care of themselves, and they are sharp enough in settling, to look out that they have got fair play.

11,064. And even to take care that the prices charged for goods are not unreasonably high?-Yes; they take very good care of that.

11,065. Have you many disputes as to the prices of goods at settling time?-Very few indeed.

11,066. Does that arise from the fact that your charges are very moderate, or from the fact that the Shetlanders don't pay much attention to that matter?-They pay great attention to it, and an article is always priced before they buy it. I am quite sure that our prices are not higher than those of others; at least so far as my experience goes.

11,067. There is another statement in Mr. Hamilton's Report, to which you have not referred,-that there is no time fixed for settlement with the men who go to the seal and whale fishing?- That is quite correct; but it is our interest to get the work of settlement done as speedily as possible.

11,068. In what way is it your interest?-To get the work off our hands. We could settle with a dozen men nearly in the same time that we can with two or three; and if they would all come and get settled with in one or two days, that would be so much less trouble to us.

11,069. Is it the case that the men, after being discharged from the ship and before settlement, continue to run accounts with you to any extent?-Very seldom.

11,070. Does it happen to some extent?-Only to a very small extent. They seldom buy anything after they have landed. Here [showing] is a crew of 27 men [Page 271] landed from the 'Esquimaux' on 28th April 1870, and they were all paid off by 14th May, or in about two weeks.

11,071. That was for a sealing voyage. Did these men engage again for the whaling?-I believe some of them did.

11,072. Were others going south?-Some of them went south, I daresay, and a good number of them went to the home fishing.

11,073. Have you had any case of as early a discharge in the case of a whaling voyage?-Here [showing] is the crew of the 'Polynia' last year. Nineteen men were landed on 26th October, and they were all paid off and discharged by 29th November, or in about a month. When the men don't come to be discharged, it is entirely their own fault, not ours. We can't compel them to come. We wish them to come as soon as possible and to settle; but sometimes they don't find it convenient. Some of them may live 20 or 30 miles from Lerwick, and they don't care about coming until they have to come deal about some other business.

11,074. Is it not often more than a month before they are discharged?-Perhaps it is. Two or three of them may stay away till the end of the year, but that is the men's fault, not the agent's. Mr. Hamilton says in the same paragraph: 'When he (the agent) does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' I deny that. The man he may hand it back or not, as he chooses, but if he is an honest man he will pay his debt.

11,075. But you don't deny that in most cases there is a debt due to the shop?-In most cases they have an account with the shop, but in some cases it is very small.

11,076. Can you give me an idea from your books what is the average amount of the debts due by the men engaged in the Greenland fishing?-I could not do that just now; but I can state that, in 1865,-which was before we were compelled to settle with them in the Custom House, we paid to the men of the 'Camperdown'-42 men-£1120, 12s. 3d. in cash; and out of that number Mr. Leask had only one tenant.

11,077. That would be about £25 apiece?-Yes, on an average; but some of these men had upwards of £50 to get. One of them had £54, 18s. 5d. to get, and he got it in cash.

11,078. Was that a very successful year?-Yes; and the following year was somewhat similar to it.

11,079. What would be the amount of goods supplied to these men at starting, or to their families during their absence?-About £400 for the whole crew.

11,080. That would be about £9 apiece for the 42 men?-Yes, about that.

11,081. Would that be the average amount of a Greenlandman's account for the season?-No; it would be much more than the average. Less than the half of that would be nearer the average.

11,082. But the amount of receipts due upon that voyage was considerably above the average?-Yes; it was it very exceptional voyage.

11,083. Was it twice as much as usual?-Yes; perhaps about that.

11,084. Do you mean that £4 or £5 is the average amount of the account due by a seaman engaged in the whaling?-I never made any calculation about it but I should think it would be somewhere about that.

11,085. In what way are your accounts with these men kept? Is there an account kept in the name of each man?-Yes. [Produces book.] There [showing] is the account I have been referring to of the 'Camperdown.'

11,086. You have a ledger for each ship?-Yes.

11,087. And this account shows the whole transactions for 1865?-Yes.

11,088. This [showing] is the account of Hercules Hunter, Lerwick, who was engaged in the seal fishing of 1865 at 50s. per month, and 2s. 6d. per ton of oil-money; 2s. 6d. per 1000 skins, and 2s. 6d. per ton of bone?-Yes.

11,089. The first entry on March 4, 1865, consists of two advances of 20s. each to account of his first month's pay, and 3s. as his subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, for which Mr. Leask was agent?-Yes.

11,090. The next entry is half of note to Mr. Hay for rent, £1, 18s. 11/2d. Had Mr. Leask undertaken to pay his rent?-Yes.

11,091. The following entries, to the amount of £2, 0s. 31/2d., are for outfit at starting, consisting both of clothing and private stores?-Yes.

11,092. Then follows-insurance, 5s. 10d.: what is that?-The insurance is on the outfit, and it is charged over and above the month's advance. The advance is made by the owner of the ship; and what is over that is at risk, which is covered by insurance. We get it done for them, and they refund the premium.

11,093 Do you employ a broker to effect an insurance on all your advances of that kind?-Yes.

11,094. Then the 5s. 10d. is the amount of insurance paid by you upon the sum of £3, 10s., which was the amount of cash and goods advanced to this man at the time of, or after, his sailing?-Yes.

11,095. There is also a balance of the old debt: was that not included in the insurance?-No.

11,096. On April 27 the man returns from his voyage and receives a payment in cash of 20s., with certain additional supplies; and on 28th April you enter to his credit the sum of £30, 8s. 4d. for wages, oil-money, and skin-money due to him upon that voyage?-Yes; that is the first payment.

11,097. His account runs on from 2d May till 4th December of the same year, when it is settled, during which time he has been upon a whaling voyage?-Yes.

11,098. At the commencement of that voyage on 2d May he receives £5 in cash?-Yes; that is to account of oil-money.

11,099. On 8th May he receives £5 in cash; on 16th May, £3; November 1, 3s.; November 18, 2s.; and on November 1 also there is £1, 16s. entered as having been paid at Dundee: that would be advanced by the shipowners there?-Yes.

11,100. On November 22d he receives £8 in cash, and a balance was paid on December 4 of £18, 8s.?-Yes.

11,101. The rest of the debits in that account consist of supplies for himself during the voyage in the captain's account and supplies to his family of meal, sugar, soap, tea, and other items; and the total amount of his credit for wages, oil-money, bone-money, for the two voyages, was £58, 19s. 2d.?-Yes.

11,102. In that case the settlement took place in December?-Yes, the final settlement.

11,103. The whaling voyage would come to an end in November?-Yes, not sooner; so that the man had only been at home about a month when he was settled with.

11,104. But during all that time you had in your hands the proceeds of his first successful sealing voyage?-Yes, except what he had got. I think he got £19 in cash out of the £30, besides his goods up to the 16th May.

11,105. And the balance of £11 remained in your hands as a security for the advances he was getting up to the settlement in December?-Yes.

11,106. Then, on November 20, he was credited with the additional sums due for the whaling voyage, amounting to £28, 4s. 10d.; so that, in addition to supplying him with goods, upon which you had your profit you were, during all that time acting as his banker?-No; he had got £19 to account by 16th May.

11,107. But to the extent of £11 you were acting as his banker?- Yes.

11,108. And he was not getting interest for it?-I think he should have paid interest.

11,109. Not when you had £11 of his in your hands?-No; but we charged him no interest when we advanced him more.

[Page 272]

11,110. But you charged insurance upon the goods he got, and you had your profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we had to lie out of the money, for some time. We might have lain out of that money for eight or nine months.

11,111. Had you sold him these goods at a cash price, and not at a credit price?-At a cash price; we have only one price. We make no difference between cash and credit.

11,112. Was the oil-money that is credited to the man on 20th November the first payment of oil-money?-It was the first payment of oil-money for the Davis Straits voyage.

11,113. When was the second payment of oil-money made?-It is credited on 19th February 1866.

11,114. It only amounted to 15s.?-Yes. I don't believe that we had received the first money at the time when we paid the man, so that we had no money on hand.

11,115. Take the case, now, of a man living in the country, George Georgeson in Walls. He receives, in like manner, on 4th March, £2, 13s. in cash, and he gets supplies, and is debited with insurance in the same way. On April 27 he has the same amount to receive for the sealing voyage, and on May 17 he gets £12,10s. in cash; on September 9, £1 per order: was that an allotment note?-It was money to account.

11,116. It would be advanced to his wife upon the security of the voyage?-Yes.

11,117. On November 20 there is £5; and £1, 6s. for cash at Dundee and Aberdeen. He is credited with the same amount of wages as Hunter, and on December 4 he is credited with second payment for the sealing voyage £3, 15s. Then, on December 26, he receives £28, 2s. 6d. in cash; and the rest of his debits consist of supplies to his family in sugar, tea, aqua, canvas, and other small article, but to a very small extent. I suppose the supplies taken out in that way by people living out of Lerwick are usually less than in the case of those who live in town?-Yes. It costs them both expense and trouble to get them from Lerwick.

11,118. There is also the case of James Twatt, Sandness, who is debited on March 4 with £2, 3s. to advance; and then on March 4 and 9 he gets supplies to the amount of £3, 38. 71/2d., upon which there is charged 6s. 51/2d. of insurance. On April 27, on his return from the sealing voyage he gets 20s. in cash, and he is credited with £20, 10s., for wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes; I think he was only at the sealing voyage.

11,119. Then, on May 27, he gets £7 in cash; July 10, 15s.; September 11, £2; and on December 4 he is credited with second payment for sealing voyage, £2, 5s. On March 6 he receives 2s. in cash; and on the same date he is settled with, by receiving £3, 1s. 3d. in cash. The total proceeds of that voyage to him were £22, 15s.?-Yes.

11,120. How many ships had you in 1865?-I think we had seven.

11,121. Were they all as fortunate as this one?-No, none of the others were so fortunate.

11,122. Was 1866 as good a year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes.

11,123. I see that in that year Adam Moar had £36, 2s. upon the two voyages; of that he got in cash at starting, and the amount of the Shipwrecked Mariners' ticket, 33s.; on May 2, cash 40s.; having been credited on that date with the proceeds of the sealing voyage, £21, 9s. 6d.; May 8, cash 10s.; May 17, cash 32s.; May 19, cash 6d.; August 16, cash 8s.; and on June 22, 1866, there is an entry to G.R. Tait's account, £3, 2s. 10d.: was that a previous account due to Mr. Tait, which you had paid for the man?-Yes.

11,124. Then, on August 16, there is cash 8s.; October 22, cash £6, captain's account £1, 7s. 6d.; cash at Dundee for travelling charge, £1, 6s. I thought the engagement was, that when the men were carried past Lerwick, their travelling expenses home were paid to them?-That is generally the case.

11,125. Then why is that sum charged against the man?-It has been something additional; it was advanced besides what was paid by the owner.

11,126. On October 23 he is credited with the proceeds of the whaling voyage, and on October 31 his account is settled by a cash payment of £4; the difference between the previous cash payments and this balance being made up of supplies to himself and the family-Yes.

11,127. The second payment on both voyages was made on January 1, 1867, and he got £4, 8s. 1d. in cash?-Yes; that was when he came in to settle.

11,128. Was 1867 a good year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes; both 1867 and 1868 were pretty fair years for her, but not so good as the former years.

11,129. Have you anything to show the state of accounts in 1870 or 1871?-Yes. [Produces book for 1871.] It is not the case that we do not keep accounts with the men, because we pay them in presence of the shipping master, and then they pay their accounts to us.

11,130. Do you keep your accounts now in a different way from what you did when the book was current upon which I have been examining you?-No; they are kept quite in the same way.

11,131. I see that the account for 1871, which you have produced, is not yet settled?-No; it is for the 'Polynia,' another ship.

11,132. Why have you selected these two ships?-Because the one was previous to the compulsory settlement at the Custom House, and the other was not.

11,133. Have you not had the 'Camperdown' since?-Yes.

11,134. Were the ''Camperdown' and 'Polynia' the best paying ships in this year?-The 'Camperdown' was, but not the 'Polynia.'

11,135. And the 'Polynia' was not the most successful ship since 1868?-No, nor before.

11,136. Take the account of Peter Blance, Yell. His wages were 20s. per month, 1s. per ton of oil, and 2s. per thousand seal-skins?-Yes, he was a young hand.

11,137. He gets an advance at first of 4s. as a payment to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund; then he gets an outfit, £3, 2s., upon which 2s. 1d. of insurance is charged. On April 17 he receives in cash 5s., and at that date he is in your debt for £1, 7s. 8d., after crediting him with wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes.

11,138. That balance is carried on to a new account in which there appear certain supplies, and he is credited with his share of the summer fishing, and also with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item of 2s, making up £16, 1s. 3d.; and also with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item of 2s. making up £16, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.

11,139. On November 29, there is entered to balance rent account, £12, 14s. 8d. Is Blance one Leask's tenants?-His mother was a tenant of Mr. Leask.

11,140. Then the £12,14s. 8d. was applied to square off that account?-Yes; it was put to his mother's credit.

11,141. The sum due to Blance on April 17, on the sealing voyage, was £3, 14s. 4d.?-Yes, that was the money paid to him at the Custom House, before the shipping master.

11,142. When was it transferred to your hands?-He would come down to the office and pay it back. I cannot say exactly at what hour he came, but he would come on the same day.

11,143. Then the £12, 14s. 8d., which was due for rent, was transferred by you to the rent account?-Yes, by his own order.

11,144. Was it done at your request?-It was at his mother's request.

11,145. How old is Blance?-He is about 20.

11,146. Had you had any correspondence with his mother about transferring that money to her amount his mother had been in arrear, or some time. She was a widow, and Mr. Leask had been rather obliging her by allowing her to remain where she was for some years, when she was not able to pay any rent. Then when her son was grown up, and was able to pay the debt, he did so.

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11,147. Here [showing] is the account of William Johnston, jun., Yell: was he another young hand?-Yes; he was in the same position as Blance. Both their fathers were drowned a few years ago, and their mothers lived in Yell.

11,148. In May, the balance against him was £4, 14s. 11d., and that includes the balance from a previous fish ledger, of £3, 1s. 6d.?-Yes; he was at the Faroe fishing and was rather unfortunate.

11,149. That is carried into a new account in May, and after allowing him his share of the summer ling fishing, £14, 13s. 9d., and his second payment of oil-money, the balance carried to the rent ledger against him is £8, 17s. 11d.?-Yes.

11,150. That was for his mother's rent in the same way as in the case of Blance?-Yes; these are the only two cases of the kind in Mr. Leask's transactions with his tenants.

11,151. Here [showing] is the account of Magnus Arthur, Yell: was he also a young hand?-Yes.

11,152. Last year he got advances to the amount of 19s. 10d., on which 1s. 7d. of insurance was charged; afterwards, on April 17, he received in cash 5s., and £1, 16s. 11d. at settlement in November; the amount on his receipts from wages, oil-money, and skin-money, being £4, 19s. 10d.?-Yes.

11,153. I see that in the case of Hugh Arthur, Nesting, the amount due to him in wages, oil-money, and skin-money, was £7, 15s. 6d., in April 1871; and the account at his debit for previous advances was £7, 11s. 8d., part of which consisted of a payment of £2, 5s. upon an advance note in favour of J. Dalzell?-Yes.

11,154. That sum of £7, 15s. 6d. was paid, I presume, before the superintendent at the Custom House?-Yes, after deducting the £2, 5s., the master's account, and the shipping master's fees.

11,155. And then Arthur walked down to your office and paid the amount of his account?-Yes, he came down and settled the account he was due to Mr. Leask for advances.

11,156. Is that done universally by the men when there is an account due by them?-Yes, after receiving their money they walk back to the office and pay their accounts.

11,157. Do they generally accompany you down to the office or the clerk who sees them paid?-One of us sometimes accompanies them to the office but we don't wait for them; they come back when they please.

11,158. Do you always desire them to come down to the office and settle their accounts when they leave the shipping master's office?-Of course, they understand they have to pay their accounts. We don't require to tell them that. The men are very honest on the whole, and don't require to be asked to pay what they are due.

11,159. Except in the case of a man like Robert Grains?-That is the only exception I have known since 1867.

11,160. I suppose if any of them showed a reluctance to settle their account at the time, then either you or the clerk who attended at the shipping master's office would remind them of it and ask them to come down to your shop to settle?-Except in that one case, I never saw even the least hint of that.

11,161. There is generally a second payment due to the men for oil-money?-Invariably.

11,162. Where is that second payment of oil-money settled?-In the agent's office now.

11,163. Why is it not also paid before the shipping master?- Because it creates a great amount of trouble to go there with every man to make the settlement. It entails an immense amount of labour.

11,164. Then the final settlement of accounts between you and the seamen does not take place until the second payment becomes due?-No.

11,165. And generally the actual settlement is some time after it becomes due?-Yes, a short time after.

11,166. Does it generally take place at the time when the men are engaging for their next year's voyage?-No. We are so busy then that we could not take time to settle their balances. There may be a few cases of that kind, but very few.

11,167. But with men from the North Isles, is it not the case that the settlement for the second payment takes place when they come in to arrange for the next year's voyage?-Yes.

11,168. And when they take supplies at that time, are these put into the account for the rising year?-Yes, if they take supplies after they engage.

11,169. They don't go into the account on which the oil-money has been paid?-That account has been previously settled.

11,172. But I am putting the case of a man wife receives his final payment of oil-money at the same time that he engages for the voyage of the rising year?-He receives his oil-money, if he wishes it, in cash, and if he wishes an advance on the rising year, he gets it besides.

11,171. In point of fact, what is generally done?-We pay the second payment of oil-money in cash; and then afterwards, if the man wishes any advance, and if it is a person we know, we will trust him with it.

11,172. But he is entitled to his advance in any case?-He is not entitled to get goods unless we choose to give them to him.

11,173. Is that advance always paid in money?-It is always paid in money if they wish it. All they are entitled to is one month's advance, and that they are entitled to receive in money.

11,174. But when a man engages for the whale fishing, and asks for his first month's pay in advance, is it the case that, in point of fact, he generally gets it in cash, or does he generally take it in goods?-We always give advance notes at the shipping office, stamped notes payable three days after the ship leaves, provided the men go in the ship.

11,175. Then you don't give either goods or money until after the man is actually away?-Yes. When man is engaged he gets his clothes to take with him, and if he wishes to give us his advance note we will cash it afterwards.

11,176. Do you give him his clothes in addition to the amount of his advance note?-If he wishes it.

11,177. But I see in all the entries I have been looking at, that the advance note is entered to his debit?-We debit him with what he receives, and he gives us back the advance note.

11,178. Here, for instance, is an entry of cash 30s. that actually paid to the man in cash?-Yes. He asks us to give him what money he requires, and he leaves his advance note with us. If he wants to get 40s. or 45s., he would get it; but if he says that he only wants 30s., we don't give him more than he requires.

11,179. A man who engages in that way has perhaps to get the amount of his last payment of oil-money for the previous year, and also cash for his advance?-Yes. That may happen very often, and it does happen. He first gets his payment of oil-money, and after he re-engages he gets his advance.

11,180. If a man in these circumstances wants a supply of meal or clothing or anything to be sent to his family, does that appear in your books, or is it paid for in money out of the monthly sums which his family may have to receive?-The whole of these things are kept in one account.

11,181. But suppose he buys meal at that time, will that enter your books at all?-Anything that he does not pay for will be entered.

11,182. But he may pay for it out of that very cash which is entered here as having been received by him?-He may do so; but we don't mark down anything that is paid for.

11,183. When a man has his oil-money to receive, and is taking his month's advance at the same time, is it not usual to ask him if he wants any supplies for his family?-I don't know that it is. We don't obtrude questions of that kind upon them.

11,184. Does he not often take supplies for his family?-Very often.

11,185. And these are paid for in cash out of the cash he is so receiving from you?-Very often.

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11,186. But you say you don't obtrude questions about his wants upon him at that particular time?-No. We never engage a man to be paid in goods at all. We engage every man to be paid in money; and if he is paid in goods it is his own fault.

11,187. But, in point of fact, a man often does take goods, at that time?-Very often. We make it, a point to give them as cheap or cheaper than they could get them elsewhere.

11,188. Therefore although there is an entry in your books of oil-money being paid to a man at a certain date, and of a payment of 30s. or £2 being made to him at the same time, on account of his first month's advance, it may happen, and it does happen, that that money is paid back into your till for goods supplied the time?-A part of it may be; but the place where the cash is kept, and the place where the goods are sold, are two separate places, so that the things must be kept quite distinct. The shop is on the ground floor opening from the street, and the office is up a lane on the second floor, where we have also a warehouse or general store for drapery goods. A man, when he gets his money in the office, may go and buy drapery goods on the second floor, or he may go down stairs and buy provisions. We don't know what he does.

11,189. You do know, in point of fact, that he often does spend his money there and then?-I have no doubt he does.

11,190. But you are not aware that he is often asked if he wants anything at the time?-I am not aware of that. It is not done now at any rate.

11,191. Do you know whether it was the practice, before the evidence was given in Edinburgh last year, to ask a man on such occasions what goods he would take?-Our shopmen might have done so. Every shopman is keen to sell as much as he can; and when he is aware of a man getting plenty of money, he would likely ask him, 'Are you going to buy anything?'

11,192. You have now handed in to me the abstract from which you previously spoke, with regard to the 'Camperdown's' voyages in 1865, which shows a total of £1537, 10s. 3d. for the men's earnings for both the sealing and whaling that year, and a total amount of cash paid to them, both during the season and at the end, of £1120, 12s. 3d., leaving a balance of £416, 18s. for goods sold?-Yes.

11,193. Do you think that shows about the average proportion of goods and cash received by each man during each year?-I should say that it does.

11,194. Was that not an unusually favourable season for the whaling?-For most of the vessels it was.

11,195. But were not these voyages of the 'Camperdown' very considerably above the average with respect to the earnings of the men?-They were above the average.

11,196. Do you also say that the accounts incurred by the men that year were above the average?-I should certainly say so. They bought more than they otherwise would or could have done.

11,197. Why should that be so? The men did not know at the commencement of the season whether the fishing was to be a successful one or not?-The greater quantity of the goods are bought after the sealing voyage, when they have earned a considerable sum of money.

11,198. Then the sealing voyage that year was unusually successful?-Yes. The principal part of the earnings were from it; and it was after it that the greater portion, or a great portion, of the accounts were contracted.

11,199. And you think the fact of the sealing voyage being unusually successful led the men or their families to incur larger accounts to you than they would otherwise have done?-I should certainly say so; because when the men's earnings are small, we have to restrict them. In this case, however, they had plenty of means, and we did not refuse them what they wanted.

11,200. With regard to the sum due at the end of the season, and paid in cash before the superintendent, what proportion of it should you say was refunded immediately in payment of accounts due at the shop?-I suppose about one-fourth, calculating from the case I have given.

11,201. I think if you look at the books which you have showed me, you will find that many of the accounts show that a much larger sum would require to be repaid. That may have been the proportion for a special ship, but it does not follow that that is a fair criterion?-I took that book simply because it came first to hand. I did not take it specially; but of course, it will show more goods sold, in proportion to the amount of earning than any other book we have got.

11,202. But can you not tell me what proportion of the money paid before the superintendent the man has to come down to and hand over to you in payment of his account?-The men, when they are landed, and before settlement, often get sums in cash to account, and sometimes pretty heavy sums, before they get their money at the Shipping Office.

11,203. But you would not do that if the men were in debt to you for goods?-No, not if they were in debt.

11,204. So that if a man has to refund money to you out of what he gets before the shipping master, that will, in the general case, be in payment of goods which he has got?-Yes, generally.

11,205. It must be so, because you would not advance him money if he was in your debt?-No; but the men generally are not in our debt. When they are in debt, it is the exception, especially in the whaling trade.

11,206. Then if a man is in your debt, and has to refund you money which he receives before the shipping master, that must be for goods?-Yes, for goods alone, if he is in debt; but we don't like him to be in debt. If he be in debt, it must be for goods. We would not care about allowing a man to get into debt for cash, although it may sometimes be the case, because Mr. Leask is very accommodating in the way of giving advances.

11,207. But the answer you give is, that about one-fourth of the sums which have been received by the men before the shipping master is repaid to you by them in settling their accounts for goods?-I said that I thought about one-fourth represented the goods sold; but, in many cases the men have got advances in money to account over and above the goods they have bought; so that the money paid over to the agent after the settlement before the shipping master, will be more than one-fourth. I should say that it would be one-third, and that would cover the sums of money paid to account from the date of landing to the date of settlement. It is quite a common thing for the men to get money as soon as they land, and before settlement; and that of course, increases the account against the men, which they have to pay after receiving their money before the shipping master.

11,208. Still you don't give that as an exact statement but merely as a guess?-It is merely an approximation, as nearly as I can guess it to be and I have a very good idea.

11,209. You say the men always go down of their own accord to pay the money, because they are honest men?-Yes, invariably. They don't require to be asked to do so.

11,210. Has it not been the case that at certain times within the last 3 or 4 years, and since the regulations of 1868 were enacted by the Board of Trade, you and your clerks have endeavoured to settle with the men before leaving the Custom House?-I think in the first year that was done. We simply paid them over the balance which they had to receive, after deducting their accounts. Perhaps it was partly done in the second year; but since then the shipping master has been more rigid, and we have had to pay the whole.

11,211. Did the shipping master interfere about that?-He always interfered, and he would not allow any reckoning in the Shipping Office at all

11,212. Since then the men have invariably come down to your office and settled with you immediately after they had received their money in the Shipping Office?-Yes, on the same day, and without any exception, unless in the one case I mentioned, and that man came on the same day also after some reflection.

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11,213. You still keep your ledger accounts in the same form as if there were no such payment of cash in the Shipping Office?-Yes, we adhere to the same form that we used before.

11,214. So that your books do not show, without calculation, what amount of cash was transferred before the shipping master?-They show the account exactly as it is, irrespective of the settlement before the shipping master.

11,215. In that way, is it not the case that the transference of the cash before the shipping master is merely form in order to comply with the Act?-I don't think so; because, if a man chooses to keep the money, he may do so. The account is kept merely to show the man's earnings, and how these earnings have been disposed of. It would be more simple, perhaps, to debit the men with the goods they get, and then to credit the cash after the settlement; but the form we use has always been adopted, and we still adhere to it. I don't think it is an evasion of the Act at all.

11,216. The men are not all settled with on the same day?-No.

11,217. Perhaps you may settle with half a dozen at time?-Yes. I remember of settling with nineteen on one day last year, but I think that is the largest number; but we could have settled with more if they had come forward.

11,218. Of course, if the men were all settled with as they land from the ships, perhaps to the number of 40 at a time, it would be more easy for them to go away without paying their debts?-Of course it would, but it is no great trouble to them to come and pay their debts.

11,219. But there would be great difficulty for you or your clerk in looking after them on the way down from the Shipping Office to the shop?-I don't think so. It is the work of a moment to take their money from them, because we can see at a glance what is due.

11,220. How far is Mr. Leask's office from the Shipping Office?- It may be about a couple of hundred yards, but I could not say exactly. Mr. Leask's office is in the town, and the Custom House is in Fort Charlotte which is to the north of the town.

11,221. You say you settled with nineteen men in one day: did these men all go up at one time before the superintendent?-All that were there at the time went before the superintendent.

11,222. But the ordinary number with whom you settle on the same day will be much less?-Yes; sometimes there may be eight or ten, and sometimes only one.

11,223. So that if they really require looking after, there will not be much difficulty in looking after them from the Custom House to the office?-We never require to look after them at all; they come of themselves.

11,224. But suppose the case that they did require it; it would not be very difficult to look after them, when there are only one or two, or even eight or ten?-We should not take the trouble to do that. If they chose to swindle us, we should just apply to the Small Debt Court. We would not be inclined to act the part of sheriff-officer ourselves. Mr. Hamilton says in his Report, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper, and not only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down to children of 12 or 14 years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books'-I don't think that is the case. Some of them may perhaps have accounts, but I don't think every is indebted to some shopkeeper.

11,225. Still that is a common thing?-Quite a common thing.

11,226. Does it occur in your books as well as in those of other firms, that separate accounts are opened for the wife and for the children?-Never for the wife; but, of course, an account is opened for the children when we are employing them.

11,227. Have you any transactions in hosiery?-We have transactions in barter for what Mr. Walker calls the hosiery improper or incidental. We do a great deal in that way in the coarser sort of work stockings, frocks, and so on. We barter goods for them, or rather I should say we take them instead of money.

11,228. You don't keep, accounts with regard to these transactions?-No.

11,229. Every transaction is separate and distinct?-Yes, it is simple barter. The people come with their goods instead of money, and we give them, goods in exchange for them.

11,230. A married woman may come with her knitting and sell it in that way for goods?-Yes.

11,231. But you don't keep an account with her?-No; we don't keep separate accounts with a man and his wife.

11,232. If she gives the hosiery in that way, and does not want any goods, may it be put down to the husband's account?-We don't care about taking hosiery at all. We simply take the hosiery instead of money, because the people come wanting to buy goods, and very often they have nothing to give for them except their hosiery. We frequently take the hosiery from them at a great disadvantage.

11,233. Do you frequently open accounts with the children of a family when they are in your employment?-I should not call them children, but grown-up young people-boys of from 12 years of age and upwards, who are employed in the fish-curing.

11,234. Do you employ many boys in your establishment at Lerwick?-Yes. I now produce a list of all the people employed by Mr. Leask in that way. There are about 60 of them altogether, including persons of 12 to upwards of 50.

11,235. For how many months in the year are these persons employed?-I should say that on an average taking one thing with another, curing the fish and turning them over, they are employed for about five months in the year, from May to December; but they are only employed at intervals, not regularly. They are employed regularly for part of May and for June, July, August, and September, and sometimes part of October. After that we have to employ them occasionally in turning the fish.

11,236. When you employ one of these persons at the beginning of the year, is it the ordinary practice to open an account in his name in the ledger?-We don't care about opening accounts with them at all. We prefer to settle with them every Saturday.

11,237. What is the nature of the engagement with them? Is it for weekly wages, or for a fee?-It is for weekly wages. We pay them from 7d. a day upwards; 1s. a day is the regular wage for a woman working among the fish, or for a strong boy.

11,238. In your establishment in Lerwick, is any payment made by way of beach fees?-No; we pay all by daily or weekly wages, and Saturday evening is the pay.

11,239. Do all these parties take payment in cash every Saturday?-We prefer to pay them in cash; but, of course, if they have taken supplies or provisions during the week we must be paid for them. Some of them do take supplies, because they could not live without them.

11,240. When they take supplies in that way, are their names entered each week in the day-book?-Not in the day-book, but in a book which we keep for the purpose, what we call our work-book.

11,241. In what way is it kept?-We simply charge them with what provisions they get.

11,242. Is there a ledger account in that work-book for each person?-Yes.

11,243. In it the provisions which they get are entered, and I suppose also soft goods if they get any?-They very seldom take soft goods; it is only provisions. These are entered in the book as they are got, and the account is settled on the Saturday evening, except in one or two extravagant cases where the people are in debt. In that case, we simply put their work to their credit, and don't balance at all until the end of the season.

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11,244. If you don't make a balance until the end of the season, may you not have some difficulty in restricting their supplies within proper limits?-Of course, we can always tell how they stand, because we are keeping a check upon their accounts, but sometimes we find it pretty hard to keep such people in check. We far rather prefer paying cash on the Saturday evening than having accounts.

11,245. But you don't always do that?-No, we cannot do it because the people cannot live without supplies as a general rule; perhaps there may be some exceptions.

11,246. But in the majority of cases you say the people have accounts?-Yes.

11,247. In the list you have given in, there are the names of about eighty people: are these all the people employed in your curing establishments?-No; there are a good many employed incidentally besides these. The names I have given are only those of the people are employed most regularly.

11,248. How are these people paid who are employed incidentally?-We never employ any one to work for goods. The understanding is that they are to be paid in money; and they are paid in money, unless they have supplied themselves with articles from the shop, for which, of course, we must be paid.

11,249. In what way are the engagements with these parties made?-When they ask for employment we tell them to go to the superintendent, and if he requires them he takes them and fixes their wages. He very likely tries them for a day, or perhaps for a week, to see how they are to get on, and then he tells them what their wages are to be.

11,250. In what way is the understanding expressed to them that they are to be paid in cash at the end of each week?-They know very well they will get their wages in cash, unless they take stuff from the shop before the end of the week. It is cash that is always the understanding. We don't wish them to take goods at all, and we prefer that they should not take any.

11,251. Do they ever get cash in the course of the week?-Very often.

11,252. To what extent?-Of course their wages are not a great deal, and it cannot be to a great extent. They sometimes get 1s. perhaps during the week; sometimes more and sometimes less.

11,253. But they always get goods when they want them so long as they are in your employ?-Not always. In one or two cases we have had to refuse goods.

11,254. Is not that really a payment of their wages in goods if they choose to take them all in goods?-I don't think so, because we don't wish them to take all in goods.

11,255. But, in fact, you don't pay them the money?-In such a case we don't pay them the money.

11,256. If there is any money left to receive at the end of the week, how do you pay it?-If they choose to go to the shop and take goods, we must pay ourselves for these goods. They cannot expect to get both goods and money too; but what we pay is money, and if they choose to take goods, that is their own fault.

11,257. But in fact, they are not paid in money?-I think that, in fact, they are paid in money, because they may get the money from the office and take it back again to the shop, as they do in some cases.

11,258. Do they sometimes get the money at the office?-Yes, and sometimes they pay it back into the shop; but, of course we deduct the amount of the accounts from what they have to receive.

11,259. I suppose it is very seldom that they get the money in the office and pay it back to the shop?-That is done in a good many cases.

11,260. Why do they do that if they have an account?-Because if they have a balance to get it is paid to them in money, and very likely what money they get is spent by them in the shop.

11,261. Do you mean that when they are settled with the end of the week they get the balance they have receive in money and spend it in the shop?-Yes, they very often, do that. If they require to spend it at all, they very likely spend it where they know they can get the best value.

11,262. Of the eighty people mentioned in the list you have handed in, how many may there be under fifteen years of age?-There are very few under fifteen; think only two or three.

11,263. Are all the rest of the males under eighteen or twenty?- Not all. The carpenters, of course, are married men and have families; but most of the people in the list are women; we have very few boys.

11,264. Have the carpenters, the sailmakers and riggers all credit accounts with you?-Yes.

11,265. Out of the fish-curers, nineteen appear to be males?-Yes, men and boys. I think there are four men, and the others are all grown-up lads, except two or three young boys.

11,266. And the women may be of all ages?-Yes. With regard to the weekly settlement with them, what I said had reference to those living in the town; but we have about twenty living in Whiteness, eight or ten miles distant, and these are only paid monthly.

11,267. Where do they get their supplies?-They live with their own families, and they don't require to buy provisions like people living in town; but if they need anything they come to us for it.

11,268. I understand Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes; he owned eight fishing vessels that went to Faroe last year. He did not have so many in previous years.

11,269. Has he an interest in any others as a partner of any company?-He has no interest in any others, but he acted as agent for other two.

11,270. What is the nature of the engagement that is made with the fishermen who go to Faroe?-The Faroe fishing is a joint speculation between the owner of the vessel and the crew. The owner supplies the ship, thoroughly equipped for the voyage, and furnishes sufficient salt to cure the fish, with all other necessary materials; and he also supplies the crew, with one pound of bread per day.

11,271. Does he supply all the lines required?-That is a different affair. What I have mentioned is his portion of the supplies-the ship and one pound of bread per man per day, and the salt; but the salt is deducted from the proceeds of the fishing as part of the expenses of curing. The owner also supplies the men with what advances they require in the way of lines, hooks, clothes, and stores.

11,272. These, however, are not supplied by the owner, but merely advanced by him?-Yes. All that the owner supplies is the ship, equipped for sea and biscuit at the rate of one pound per man per day. The men supply themselves with small stores, such as tea, coffee, butcher-meat, and anything they require. They also furnish lines and hooks, and what clothing they require. The owner puts the salt on board; generally about 20 tons, and sometimes as high as 30 tons, according to the size of the vessel.

11,273. What proportion does the salt put on board bear to the total capacity of the vessel?-One ton of salt is expected to cure one ton of fish.

11,274. Do you not put on board a larger supply of salt in order to allow for waste?-We generally put as much salt as the vessel can stow, after being filled up with water-casks, oil-casks, bread, ballast, and so on.

11,275. What are the oil-casks for?-To preserve the livers of the fish. They are put into these casks, and made into oil after the vessel has returned.

11,276. Are the lines, and hooks, and small stores, which are supplied by the men, generally taken from the merchant as outfitter?-Yes.

11,277. And they are charged against the men in their accounts?- Yes.

11,278. At the end of the season, when the men come to settle, how is the arrangement with them carried out?-The men, of course, get all the money due to them.

11,279. What number of men may there be on board one of these smacks?-With one vessel we have had crew of 18, and with another we have had a crew of 11. The crews vary between these numbers; and of [Page 277] these men, perhaps two-thirds are what are called full-shares-men; perhaps one-sixth will be half-shares-men, and the other sixth quarter-shares-men. I now show the account of the 'Anaconda' for last year.

11,280. I see that the vessel's proportion of the fish was one half: that goes to the owner?-Yes.

11,281. How many men were in the crew?-Sixteen.

11,282. Of these, 13 had full shares and were called shares-men?-Yes.

11,283. John Isbister had a three-quarter share?-Yes. He would perhaps be an ordinary seaman, not an able seamen. The able seamen have full shares, and the others have less, according to their quality.

11,284. I see that three men had three-quarter shares, while one had as low as a half?-Yes; in some cases they have only been on one voyage. The smacks generally make two voyages, and sometimes three. Perhaps after the first voyage, a boy or a man may be ill, and has to leave, and his proportion of the fish is ascertained at the time when he leaves.

11,285. Are the hooks, and lines, and outfit, supplied to the men, deducted from their own account, or from the account of the crew?-They are deducted in each man's own private account; each man has his own account, separate from the account of the crew. There is one account kept for what has been got on behalf of the company, and then everything else is put into the account for the men.

11,286. There is a statement made out for each ship annually, showing the gross fish and oil, and also the charge, consisting of various things?-Yes.

11,287. But the gross fish and oil, as entered here [showing], must appear somewhere else in detail?-We have another book in which we put the amount of the weight. The skipper knows the number of the fish, but he cannot tell their weight until they are dried. When they are cured, the amount of the fish is entered in the book.

11,288. And the estimate made of each man's share is made after weighing the dry fish?-Yes; or after selling the dry fish. The fish are weighed in the store, and then sold, perhaps in October or November; and as soon as the price is ascertained, the account is made up.

11,289. In the case of the 'Caroline' in 1870, the statement shows £481, 0s. 3d. as the total proceeds of the sale of her fish?-Yes.

11,290. The first thing you do after having ascertained the total proceeds of the sale of the fish is to deduct from that the charges?-Yes.

11,291. You charge these as curing 281/6 tons at 50s. per ton, dry fish, £70, 8s. 4d.?-Yes; that includes the salt.

11,292. 'Removing to Lerwick, 5s.-£7, 0s. 10d.?'-Yes; the fish were at Whiteness and had to be brought here.

11,293. 'Master's fee, 6s. 3d. per ton?'-Yes. I should explain that the masters generally have 10s. per ton, and the mates 2s. 6d.; but in this case the master and the mate agreed to go equal, and divide the extras together, so that instead of 10s. and 2s. 6d., they had 6s. 3d. each.

11,294. That was £8, 16s. 11/2d. to each?-Yes.

11,295. The second mate's extra of 1s. 6d. came to £2, 2s. 3d., and then the score money is charged at £24, 19s. 6d.: what is that?- The men have 6d. for every score of fish they catch, as an encouragement to them to do their utmost. That sum is taken off the gross, and is divided among the men according to the number of scores each has taken.

11,296. The next entry is, 'Bait at Shetland £6, and Faroe £5, 2s. 8d.?'-Yes; the master employs people to get bait for him here and at Faroe.

11,297. He does so at the expense of the whole partnership?-Yes.

11,298. These charges being deducted; there remains £347, 14s. 7d., the vessel's proportion of which is £173, 17s. 4d., and the rest is divided among the crew according to their different shares?- Yes.

11,299. Is the charge of 50s. per ton for curing, a uniform charge?-In some years it is higher. It has cost us as much as 55s., but 50s. is the uniform rate.

11,300. Is that charge according to an agreement made at the beginning of the season with the men?-The agreement at the commencement of the season is, that all necessary expenses shall be deducted.

11,301. Then, if the merchant finds that the expense curing is greater than 50s., is he entitled to increase that charge in the final account with the men?-Yes. The men are only entitled to one half of the net proceeds of the speculation.

11,302. Are your agreements with the men, at the commencement of the season, in writing or in printing?-They are in writing, never in printing.

11,303. But you do enter into a written agreement which each man signs?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. Sometimes the agreement does not bind them at all. We can get no damages from them if they choose to break through it; it is simply a moral agreement, not a legal one at all.

11,304. What is the use of having an agreement if it is not binding?-Just to show their proportion of the speculation, and f or the sake of making up the half-yearly returns for the Board of Trade.

11,305. Have you a regular form of agreement?-I cannot say that it is uniform; it has to be altered in some years.

11,306. Do you write out one annually for each smack?-No; it is all one agreement, which is applicable to the whole of them; there is no difference whatever. I shall send one of these agreements.

<Adjourned>.

SCALLOWAY; TUESDAY, JANUARY 23, 1872

GILBERT TULLOCH, examined.

11,307. Are you the shopkeeper at Scalloway for Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I am.

11,308. They have a curing establishment here, and buy a quantity of fish?-Yes.

11,309. They also have a shop in which goods of all descriptions are sold?-Yes, all that are generally sold to fishermen.

11,310. Have you the entire management of their business here?- Yes.

11,311. You take delivery of the fish from the men, and enter the quantities received in the fishing book?-I settle with the men for the fish as I receive them, and I charge the amount against my employers.

11,312. You are now speaking of the winter fishing?-Yes.

11,313. In that fishing each transaction is separate and distinct?- Yes. The men are paid over the counter as they deliver the fish, for all that we purchase in Scalloway. They don't go into any account at all. Where the fish are delivered at other places, they are settled for at Lerwick.

11,314. Then with the regular summer fishing you have nothing to do?-No; Messrs. Hay have curers at the islands for that.

[Page 278]

11,315. They have factors at Burra and other places who receive the fish, and the settlement for them takes place at Lerwick?- Yes.

11,316. Your duties consist in managing the business the shop, and selling the goods there, and in purchasing fish or oil which the men voluntarily bring to you?-Yes.

11,317. You have nothing to do with the men who are engaged to fish in the home fishing?-Nothing.

11,318. When you take delivery of a quantity of fish from the men, is no part of that entered in your books?-If the men have taken up advances before, then these enter the books; and that is done occasionally.

11,319. But when it does enter your books, it is entered as a separate transaction at the time in the fisherman's account in the ledger?-Yes.

11,320. That is to say, you have a ledger for the shop transactions in which each man has an account?-Yes; and if he wishes any part of his fish to go to his account, to help in clearing it off, I enter it there.

11,321. But when you put it to his account, the quantity of fish delivered at the particular time is stated, with the price, and the sum is put into the money column?-Yes.

11,322. Have you many transactions of that kind with the men at Burra?-Yes; principally in winter.

11,323. In spring and summer do they sometimes come to you with fish?-They deliver them at the stations, and they are settled for at Lerwick, with Messrs. Hay.

11,324. But do they sometimes endeavour to carry out transaction with you for ready money or for goods?-Occasionally; when they require it, they will come to us with a few fish, to get groceries or any things they want. They are not prohibited from doing that if they wish it.

11,325. Messrs. Hay do not forbid them, when they are engaged for the season, to come to you for any supplies they may want, and to give their fish in exchange?-That is not forbidden, so far as I am aware.

11,326. And in these transactions with fishermen, from whatever place they come, is the payment generally made in goods or in money?-Part in both. They get what goods they want, and their balance is paid in cash. I cannot say that more is paid in goods or in cash.

11,327. Is not the great bulk of the fish paid for by out-takes?- Generally.

11,328. About how many men are entered in your ledger with whom you deal in that way?-I could not say exactly. They come from different places, and could not state the exact number.

11,329. They are not merely the men who are employed by Messrs. Hay for the summer fishing, but many others besides?- Yes.

11,330. Will you have 100 of these accounts in your ledger?-I could not say exactly.

11,331. Is there it separate ledger kept for the Burra men?-Yes.

11,332. Do they keep all their accounts here?-They keep accounts with me for all their dealings here, but they deal both here and in Lerwick.

11,333. In what season of the year do you make settlement with the men who have accounts in the way you have described?-The Burra men all settle at Lerwick. They only get their advances from me, and they settle at the end of the year with my employers.

11,334. Is a note of their advances handed in to Lerwick?-Yes.

11,335. Do you settle here with others than Burra men who deal with you?-No; they are all settled with at Lerwick. The whole of the accounts are settled there, unless any man wishes to pay any provisions he has had himself. He has it in his option to pay these things to me if he likes; but that is only done in very rare cases.

11,336. Do you sometimes pay money for fish here?-Sometimes.

11,337. In what cases does that occur?-In the case of it neutral man who is not connected with the Lerwick business.

11,338. Then it is only the men who are in the regular employment of Messrs. Hay who settle at Lerwick?-Yes.

11,339. When you have a customer who fishes independently, or for another firm, and who runs an account in your book, he settles with you here?-Yes. He keeps an account with me, and I settle with him.

11,340. At what season of the year is that done?-It is generally at the end of the year, at the usual settling time in Shetland.

11,341. How many men of that description do you suppose there may be in your books,-men who either sell their own fish all the year round, or sell their fish to you cured?-There are very few of them.

11,342. Most of your customers are in the regular employment of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

11,343. And most of them, I suppose, including the Burra men, are bound by agreement for the year to deliver their fish to that firm?-They are not bound by agreement, so far as I know.

11,344. But they are engaged for the summer to fish for the firm, in the boats of Messrs. Hay?-They are.

11,345. The bulk of the accounts kept in your shop will be with such men?-Yes.

11,346. You were not asked to bring your books?-No.

11,347. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash you pay to these few men with whom you settle here?-I could not give an exact account of it. I have bought about £100 worth of fish, ling and cod, since May last up to this date.

11,348. Are you the largest purchaser of fish in that way in Scalloway?-I could not say; there are other fish-buyers here.

11,349. There are other parties who buy fish in the same way, and some other parties who employ boats of their own for the summer fishing?-There are a few, but not many.

11,350. Mr. Nicholson has some?-Yes.

11,351. And Mr. Tait has one?-I suppose he has but he does not do much in that way.

11,352. Is the amount you have stated the ordinary amount which you purchase during the same period each year?-It is sometimes more and sometimes less. It just depends on the success of the fishing.

11,353. How much of that would be purchased in the summer and autumn?-Not much in the summer. The greater part will be purchased in winter.

11,354. In summer the men are delivering their fish at Burra, so that less fish are brought to you at that time?-Yes.

11,355. Are your supplies of goods got from Lerwick from Messrs. Hay?-Some come from Lerwick, and some come direct from the south.

11,356. Are they invoiced to you at wholesale price, or at the price at which you are expected to sell them?-They are invoiced at the wholesale price and I fix the retail price myself.

11,357 What price do you pay for fish to the neutral man who brings them to you in that way?-It is not always the same; sometimes it is more and sometimes less.

11,358. What has been the price this season?-It depends upon the size of the fish we get. For ling and large cod I paid 6s. a cwt up to the commencement of this year, and since then I have paid 7s.

11,359. Do you generally pay that in money?-No; part in goods, and part in money.

11,360. Do your books show in what proportion the payments consist of money, and in what proportion of goods?-We keep no account of what is paid directly over the counter. I charge my employers with the amount of fish which I purchase from these men, and settle with the men at once as I get them.

11,361. Are the fish brought to the counter?-No, they are weighed in the store. There are people there for that purpose.

11,362. When you are weighing them and taking delivery of them, do you ask the man what he wants?-Yes. He gets whatever goods he wants.

11,363. Then when you have taken delivery you go with him to the shop, and give him either goods or money?-Yes; we give him the goods, and then the balance in cash.

[Page 279]

11,364. If it is not convenient for you to go yourself, suppose you have a shopman who will act in the shop in your stead?-We have a man for weighing, the fish, and he comes up with the account of the fish he has got, and then we settle with the men according to the weight which he gives in to us.

11,365. Does the man who takes in the fish enter their weight in any book at the time?-No; he marks it down upon a board, or anything, and comes up to the shop as soon as he has weighed for a boat's crew, and gives in the weight. We enter that in our book, and pay the price to the men.

11,366. Does the man who weighs the fish always come up to the shop?-Yes.

11,367. He does not send a note of the weight he always comes himself?-No, he always comes himself.

11,368. Do you ever pay the price altogether in cash-Sometimes; if the men want no goods we pay it in cash.

11,369. Is that a usual thing?-It is not usual; but sometimes it is the case.

11,370. Is there any particular reason for paying it all in cash when that is done?-If the party wants no goods, then he gets the cash.

11,371. Or if he wants the cash for any particular purpose?-Yes.

11,372. I suppose he will generally tell you if he wants the cash for any particular reason?-Sometimes he does.

11,373. And you make no objection to giving it to him?-No, not if he wants it.

11,374. Do you give him the same price in cash as in goods?- Quite the same; it makes no difference; we have a fixed price.

11,375. Is it entirely in the choice of the men whether they take goods or cash?-Yes.

11,376. But is it not part of the system that the payment is for the most part taken in goods?-That depends upon the parties themselves.

11,377. Do you mean to say, that if the fishermen were all to combine and ask for their payment in cash, they would get it, or would that necessitate any change in your system of carrying on business?-I suppose they would get it; but we might not have enough cash to pay out such large sums as that. We are not near any bank, and we might not have sufficient cash in hand for all that we required, if the payment was wholly in cash.

11,378. Would you find it inconvenient to pay for these fish altogether in cash?-Yes, unless my employers were to give me sufficient cash to meet their demands.

11,379. Your arrangements are made upon the footing, I suppose, that the bulk of the payments are to be taken in goods?-That is understood, although there is no arrangement made about it.

11,380. There is no arrangement made with the men, but it is understood that a great proportion of the transactions are to be settled for in goods?-If the men get as good articles from us as they can get from any other party, I don't see why they should not take payments in that way.

11,381. It might very well happen, I suppose, that even if you did pay in cash, the man would take his cash and spend it at your shop?-Yes; and sometimes that is done.

11,382. But, in point of fact, your business arrangements are made upon the footing that the great amount of the fish sales are to be paid for in goods?-There is no arrangement at all.

11,383. But your own business arrangements are made on that footing? You don't keep a sufficient supply of cash to meet the requirements of a ready-money trade?-No, that has not been the practice.

11,384. Then is it not an exceptional case, and a mere favour to the fisherman, to pay him in money?-It is in his own option to take either goods or money. If he wants the goods he gets them, and if not we pay him in cash.

11,385. But is it not the case that a man is not paid in cash unless he expressly asks for it?-He is not paid in cash unless he wishes it. He gets whatever goods he requires, and the balance is paid over to him in cash.

11,386. The first thing settled between you, after fixing the price, is what goods the man is to take?-Yes.

11,387. And after that, if there is any balance over, it is paid to him in cash?-Yes.

11,388. But, as a rule, he takes out his goods first?-Yes.

11,389. Do you suppose that three-fourths of the value of the fish sold are paid for in goods?-I could hardly say. We never keep any account of that.

11,390. What is the usual quantity of fish brought to you at one time in winter from one boat?-It varies very much.

11,391. Will it be two or three cwts.?-Sometimes more, and sometimes less.

11,392. Would five cwt. be a good catch for it day in winter?- Yes, it would be a good catch.

11,393. Are there many ling caught in winter?-Not many. There are very few tusk caught then. They are chiefly cod, and some ling. There are three classes of cod. There is a large class, and a small class, and a middle size, and the price is different. The price for small cod is now 5s. per cwt., but the large cod that can be sent to Spain are always paid for higher. The price for them is 7s. now.

11,394. Suppose a man were bringing five cwt. of cod to you, he would get, I suppose, about 30s. for it, if it were equally composed of large and small cod?-Yes. That would be divided among the men in the boat,-say three or four men.

11,395. That would be about 7s. 6d. each?-Yes, supposing the price to be at the rate you have mentioned.

11,396. Would it be usual for the man to get the whole of that 7s. 6d. in goods?-That would depend upon himself. Perhaps he might require two-thirds of it in goods, and the other third in cash.

11,397. Would 2s. 6d. be about the largest sum would get in money upon such a catch of fish?-It might be more or less.

11,398. But he would sometimes get it all in goods, I suppose?- Sometimes.

11,399. Do you remember any case in which he got it all in cash?-There have been several cases of that kind. I was looking in the shop books before I came here, and I picked up some papers in the shop showing how much cash they get. [The witness handed in papers containing the following accounts:-