NOTES 1. (continued 11)

3070. It is a rule in your business that you do not give lines for a balance of that kind?-Yes.

3071. You do not give them on a purchase of goods either?-No.

3072. Do the purchases of goods from parties who do not knit with your worsted appear in any of your books?-No; unless a balance is left, and it appears in the end of the day-book where I now point it out. [Showing.] On page 38 there is the account of Helen Arcus, our dresser.

3073. Is that Mrs. Arcus who has been examined?-No; she does not dress for us. That account of Helen Arcus is entirely for dressing.

3074. Is it settled by goods?-No. I wish to explain how we deal with her. She gets out a quantity of shawls and veils or neckties to dress. When they are finished, she brings them down to our hosiery shop where we keep our hosiery and she gets the amount marked on a bit of a line with which she goes to the other shop. I ask her what she wants and perhaps if the amount is 8s. 71/2d. she will ask for a quarter pound of tea for 10d. I then ask her what she wants next, and she says, 'I want 2s. or 3s. in cash.' There is then a balance left, which I mark in the book thus 'By 4s. 81/2d.,' which stands as a balance due to her. If she wants any cash in the interim between that time and the time when she brings down her dressing, she comes to the shop and gets cash, say 6d., or any goods she requires. She gets at the very least 5s. a week in cash all the year round. That does not appear in the book, but she gets whatever she asks.

3075. How do you balance the account when the time comes for doing that?-We add up the two sides of it.

3076. I see that each line in the account contains both debit and credit entries?-Yes, but there are two money columns at the end, and the entries are carried out to them according as they are debit or credit.

3077. How do you do with regard to sending goods south?-When we get orders for Shetland goods in the winter time, they go to our house in Edinburgh. We have already forwarded goods there, and they are kept in store; the orders received at that season are executed there, and a statement is sent down to us. This [producing document] is one of the statements which have been sent from Edinburgh for veils, and here [producing document] is another for shawls. I have brought a sample of each.

3078. The veils are numbered according to quality?-Yes. When we send them of different prices, there must be a different number, to let the people in the south know what the prices are.

3079. You fix the price here at which they are to be sold in Edinburgh?-Yes.

3080. That is the wholesale price?-Yes. Here is June 4: 4 dozen grey veils No. 1, 18s.-£3, 12s.; 4 dozen grey veils No. 6, 21s.- £4, 4s.; 3 dozen No. 7, 27s.-£4, 1s.

3081. Have these grey veils No. 1 been knitted for you by your own knitters?-The principal part of them; but we buy some.

3082. Show me one of the entries of the payment to a knitter for these veils?-I could scarcely show it for these identical veils.

3083. But for veils of the very same quality?-I should think this [showing] would be of the same quality: '10 veils, 9d.-Barbara Pottinger, Burra Isle.'

3084. Then the No. 1 veil which you sell at 1s. 6d. would cost 9d. for the knitting?-We pay 9d. for the knitting of it.

3085. You give out the worsted: what will that cost?-I should think for the coarsest, about 5d.

3086. Would that be the price you pay for it, or the price you would ask for it from a knitter?-It is the price we pay for it; it is Shetland wool.

3087. Which you don't sell?-Which we don't sell. We sell no kinds of wool.

3088. What does the veil cost you for dressing?-11/2d.

3089. Is there any other expense connected with?-There is not on that identical veil, but there is other expense connected with the trade.

3090. Have you to pay freight?-Not freight; but when we get a quantity of goods of that kind, perhaps one-half of them cannot be sold as they are. The colour is so uneven, that we have to send them south and dye a great part of them.

3091. Do you send one-half of each lot south?-Sometimes one-half, and sometimes more and sometimes less.

3092. What is the cost of dyeing?-We pay 1s. a dozen for dyeing; and there is the freight south and the freight back again, and we require to re-dress a great many of them.

3093. So that some of these veils may actually cost you 1s. 6d.?- Yes; and some of them cost less.

3094. What margin of profit does that leave?-I really cannot say. I think no Shetland merchant can tell the exact profit he has on any of his goods.

3095. But there are a number of incidental expenses of that kind, which bring the actual cost of the veils up to about 1s. 6d. apiece?-Yes.

[Page 69]

3096. May that be said with regard to other goods also?-It can be said of shawls.

3097. You think the expenses of that kind for sending south, and dyeing and re-dressing, often make the cost of production nearly equal to the selling price?-Yes; and in many cases more than the selling price.

3098. How much wool would there be in a dozen of these Shetland veils?-I should say there would be twenty-one cuts of Shetland wool in a dozen No. 1 veils at 18s.

3099. What is the price of that Shetland wool per cut?-3d. is the price for a fairish quality. Some of the veils turn out very bad from the 3d. worsted, while others turn out to be a little better.

3100. Therefore the worsted costs 5s. 3d., the knitting 9s., and the dressing 1s. 6d.: that leaves 2s. 3d. What proportion of these veils can go to the market without any dyeing or re-dressing?-I don't think there will be more than half of them. The worsted looks very well before it is given out to the knitter; but when it comes back, there are dark and light bars through it.

3101. Then upon one-half of them you have the expense of a double freight to Edinburgh, and also the expense of dyeing and of re-dressing?-Yes.

3102. But it is only a fraction of those sent south require to be re-dressed when they come back?-They all require to be re-dressed when they come back from the dyers.

3103. What dyers do you send them to?-P. & P. Campbell, Cockburn Street, Edinburgh.

3104. What is their charge for dyeing?-I think it 1s. 6d.; but they give 5 per cent. off at the end of the season.

3105. Coming to the English wool; I see there are four dozen black veils No. 5s. 33s., made with English wool: what quantity of wool is required to make dozen of these?-It requires about 3 oz. for a dozen, or about a quarter oz. to make a single veil.

3106. Do you sell that wool by the ounce or the pound?-We buy it by the pound, at 32s. 6d.

3107. Then 3 oz. would cost about 6s.?-Yes; a fraction over that. We don't give them to the knitters here; we give them to a person in the country, who gets them knitted for us. We pay 14s. for the knitting of them to that person in the country.

3108. Is there any particular reason for employing a party in the country for that kind of goods?-We think we can get them better done in that district of the country.

3109. Where is that?-In Unst.

3110. Who is your agent there?-It is a private person. I would rather not tell her name in public.

3111. What is the expense of dressing these veils?-1s. 6d. a dozen.

3112. Does the same proportion of them require dyeing as in the other case?-No; none of these require dyeing, because they are black.

3113. Then there is no expense for dyeing with regard to them?- Very seldom.

3114. Is that sum of 21s. 6d. the whole cost of production of these veils?-No.

3115. What additional cost is there?-There is about the same proportion of them both in the knitting and in the dressing that gets damaged, we cannot get the prices for them that we allow for the knitting.

3116. Do you mean that such a large proportion of them are destroyed in the knitting and the dressing, that you cannot sell them?-Yes; we cannot sell them at very much more than half-price.

3117. What proportion of them are so damaged?-I cannot say exactly; but I should think about the same proportion as in the other case.

3118. Therefore the high price you put upon these veils is intended to cover the loss incurred in that way?-Yes.

3319. The damage, I understand, occurs in the dressing?-Yes; and in the knitting too. There are a good many black lumps in the wool, and the people are very careless, and knit in the black lumps, and thus destroy the veils.

3120. Under what description do you sell these damaged veils?- As job lots; but I wish to state that the woman whom we employ in this way is a dealer, and we have to give the goods to her at a very great reduction. We have to give them to her at the wholesale price. The goods which we pay for the knitting are sold much cheaper to her than to others.

3121. You pay this woman in goods?-Yes; at wholesale prices. It is almost the same as cash, because we have to give the goods so much cheaper.

3122. Does she keep a shop?-No; but she deals in a small way. I think she has a room in which she has some small things. It is in one sense a shop, and in another it is not.

3123. Do you require as much as 11s. 6d. to cover what you lose on the job lots?-I think we do.

3124. Have you any books here which show an entry of a job lot of that kind?-I don't have them here.

3125. How does that appear in your books?-They are entered as so many dozen veils job.

3126. They are entered in that way in your day-book as sent south to your correspondent in Edinburgh?-Yes; there are a good many of the same kind of veils, which having to lie over the season get crushed, and are taken back and re-dressed, and sent south again.

3127. But losses of that kind occur in all trades, I suppose?-I suppose so.

3128. You said you would charge for a job lot about half-price?- Less than half-price.

3129. Can you calculate how many job lots there would be out of say ten dozen of these black veils?-I have often taken one-half of them out for job lots.

3130. Do you say that, as a rule, there would be five dozen job lots in ten dozen black veils?-Very often there are that number.

3131. Would that be an average?-I think average is scarcely so high, but very near it.

3132. Then, of all the black veils No. 5 sent to your correspondent in Edinburgh, nearly one-half will be job lots?-Yes; of the one kind of veils-that is-the finest kind. There are very few of the cheaper veils jobbed in the same way,

3133. Why are there so many of them in these fine veils?-The worsted is so fine, that they get torn, and the slightest mistake injures them.

3134. Will you show me an entry of some veils of the medium quality?-Here [showing] is an entry of No. 7 veils at 24s.: these are Shetland wool.

3135. I would rather take a case where English wool was used?-I don't think there is any case of that kind there. No. 2 is the only one very near it of English wool.

3136. Here [showing] is an entry of four dozen black veils No. 2, 21s.: what would the cost of wool be there?-About 10s. 6d, per pound.

3137. What quantity of wool would be required for a dozen?-I think 1 oz. would make three veils.,

3138. Then 4 oz. would make a dozen; that is 2s. 71/2d. as the cost of wool for a dozen?-Yes.

3139. What would be the cost of knitting a dozen?-12s. in goods.

3140. And of dressing?-1s. 6d.

3141. Have you to dye these?-No; we don't dye them.

3142. Is there the same risk of loss from their being spoiled as in the other case?-Not quite the same; but there are a certain number of job lots there too.

3143. What proportion of job lots may there be in that sort of veil?-Generally from one-eighth to one-fourth of the whole.

3144. Do these sell at half-price, or more than half-price?- Generally about half-price-sometimes a shade less and sometimes a shade more, according to the state of the market.

3145. Then the price you charge for them, 21s. is calculated to cover the loss upon job lots?-Yes.

3146. There is thus a difference of nearly 5s. between the cost price and the selling price of these No. 2 veils: is it not the fact that that difference is allowed for profit?-It is the fact that it is not allowed for a profit: the profit is not so much.

[Page 70]

3147. But it is calculated so as to allow you a certain amount of profit?-Yes; a certain amount.

3148. That is not the actual profit receive; but the price is so calculated as to cover the loss upon job lots and to allow you a certain amount of profit as well?-Yes.

3149. In fact, so as to make it safe that you may get some profits- Yes.

3150. Is that not so with the prices, of all your hosiery goods?- With the lace goods that we get knitted it is the case. We only put out lace goods to be knitted; we buy all the other goods over the counter.

3151. What do you mean by lace goods?-Lace shawls and veils, principally, and neckties.

3152. Do you call all the open lace goods Shetland goods, whether they are made of English or Shetland wool?-Yes.

3153. This [showing] is an invoice of shawls?-Yes.

3154. Is there any material difference, with respect to the shawls, from the calculations with regard to the cost of production and profit which we have just made with respect to the veils?-I think it is very similar.

3155. It comes to something like the same thing?-Yes; but the difference is not quite so marked.

3156. You think there is not so much difference in the cost to you, in the case of shawls, as in the case of veils?-No; because we don't get job shawls, and we don't require to guard against that.

3157. Are there no job shawls at all?-It is extremely seldom that there are any.

3158. Therefore, in that case, you require to make the margin less?-Yes.

3159. What do you think would be the percentage of profit upon the lots of veils and shawls mentioned in this account [showing]?-I really could not say. I am quite sure that no person in the trade could tell that.

3160. You have never made an exact calculation of it?-Never.

3161. Can you give me an approximation to it? Will it be 10 per cent.?-Yes; it will be more.

3162. Will it be under 15?-I think it will be.

3163. That is not taking into consideration the fact that they are paid for in goods?-There is nothing like 15 per cent. in that view. I am taking the whole profit in every way connected with them.

3164. But the question I am asking is, whether, calculating the cost of production in money as I have done just now, and calculating the selling price in money, the profit realized upon these two invoices you have handed to me will amount to 10 or 15 per cent.?-I don't exactly understand the question.

3165. We have been calculating the cost of the article to you?- Yes; and the real cost to us, I would say the profit will be 15 per cent.

3166. Then, in addition to that, you sell goods to the parties who bring in the articles?-Not in addition to that.

3167. You don't mean to say that you give your goods in return for these articles at cost price?-No, we don't.

3168. You have a profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we don't have a separate profit of 15 per cent. on the hosiery.

3169. But the purpose of the calculations we have been going into just now is to show what the hosiery costs?-Yes; what is the cost to Mr. Linklater.

3170. How do you get at the actual cost?-I cannot get at it exactly. I really don't know what it is.

3171. But when you say you pay a woman 10s. for knitting, that is marked down in your book as the price paid to her for knitting, just in the same way as if it had been paid in money?-Yes; but I say that we don't have 15 per cent. of profit on these goods over and above the profit we have on the goods given to the knitter.

3172. But, setting aside in the meantime the fact that the women are paid in goods, and supposing that the 10s. entered in your book is paid to the knitter in cash, do you mean to say that your profit is not 10 or 15 per cent.?-If it was cash, I should say it was 10 or 15 per cent.,-on some things a little more, and on some things a little less.

3173. I am speaking of the hosiery exclusively at present; but in point of fact the 10s. that is entered in your book as the cost of knitting is invariably, or almost invariably, settled for by means of goods on the other side of the account?-Yes.

3174. Are these goods charged to the knitter at wholesale prices or at retail prices?-At retail prices.

3175. Then that retail price implies that there is a profit on the goods?-That is what I am saying; but I say that we don't have 15 per cent. profit on the shawls, and a profit on the goods besides. I say that if we were paying the actual cash for the knitting of the shawls, then we might have 15 per cent. of profit.

3176. Do you mean that if you were paying actual cash for the knitting of the shawls, you would allow smaller profit on your goods?-I do.

3177. Then when you said with regard to the grey veils No. 1, at 18s., that the cost of knitting was 9s. a dozen, that payment to the knitter was higher than if you paid her in cash?-Yes.

3178. How much higher?-I think that one would not be safe in that case to pay more than 7s. or 7s. 6d., but some knitters make rather better things than others. Of course that is only my own opinion, and it is a thing I have never discussed either one way or another.

3179. You don't sell the Shetland worsted?-No.

3180. And you say an average price for it is 3d. a cut?-Yes; fine worsted may be from 3d. to 6d. a cut.

3181. The payment for that is generally in goods?-No, it is generally in cash, but we do sometimes get it for goods.

3182. You pay for it generally in cash: how do you account for that deviation from your general practice in Shetland?-We buy a good lot of it from merchants, and there are a good many old women who spin for a living, who we think require the cash. There is also such a demand for it that we are very glad to get it for cash, when the market is generally overstocked with everything else.

3183. Is there much Shetland wool sold in the southern markets?-No; we only send very small quantities of it south, for darning purposes.

3184. Are you aware whether there are merchants in Shetland, either in Lerwick or in the country, who send Shetland wool to the southern markets?-I know it has been sent from Yell.

3185. To a large extent?-No; it is not produced to a large extent. All that is produced in Shetland is very trifling.

3186. How did it happen to be sent from Yell?-Because a hosiery merchant in the south, who was selling their goods, got an order for worsted, and it was sent to him. I only know or that one instance.

3187. Was it sent by a proprietor?-I am not sure. It was Mr. Pole of Greenbank who sent it. I rather think his father is proprietor of Greenbank. Mr. Pole is now at Mossbank.

3188. What is the cost per pound of that worsted which sells at 3d. per cut?-Ordinary good 3d. worsted should be about 20s. a pound.

3189. Therefore it is not so dear as the English worsted?-It is much dearer.

3190. But there is some of the English worsted high as 32s. a pound?-Yes; but we have bought Shetland wool at 96s.

3191. Is that the finest quality of Shetland worsted?-Yes

3192. How much is that per cut?-I think about 7d. We have paid 7d. a cut for it, and on weighing it out I have found there were 12 cuts to the ounce. A cut is 100 threads, and a reel is about a yard long, or scarcely so much.

3193. There will be a greater number of cuts in a pound of fine worsted than in a pound of coarse worsted?-Yes.

3194. So that the proportion between the price per [Page 71] cut and the price per pound will differ very much?-Yes

3195. In your trade is there any quantity of goods sold for cash?- Yes.

3196. Are these marked and sold at the same price as those which you give in return for hosiery?-Yes; they are marked at the same price, and generally sold at the same price. On rare occasions there is a slight discount given for ready cash.

3197. How much is that discount?-I should say about 1s. per £1.

3198. Why is that not allowed when the settlement with hosiery?-Because we consider that in our transactions throughout the year we do not realize for our hosiery goods the full price which we pay.

3199. Have you two shops?-Yes.

3200. In one of these is hosiery kept and bought?-In one of them hosiery is kept; it is only in bought that shop now on very rare occasions. When Mr. Linklater or I happen to be there, we may buy something, and send the customer to the other shop to settle for it.

3201. Then the buying of hosiery is only conducted in the drapery shop?-The settlement for hosiery is only conducted in the hosiery shop.

3202. As a rule, a person selling a shawl or veil would go to the drapery shop?-Yes; and if Mr. Linklater or I was not there, she would go to the other shop to see if we were there.

3203. How do you settle with them if the purchase is made in the hosiery shop?-Generally one of us goes across with them, and on other occasions we give a line to the other shop such as this: '12s. R. L.,'-just the sum and the initials, and they go to the other shop, where it is settled at once.

3204. That is in cases of purchase, and has nothing to do with your knitters?-Nothing; unless in the case of the dresser, who has to bring all the dressed goods to the other shop. She sometimes gets a similar line; at other times she just tells the amount. Of course we put every confidence in her; and whether she has a line or not, she is settled with all the same.

3205. Do you exchange a large quantity of tea for hosiery and knitted work?-Not a large quantity; only a small quantity.

3206. Was it larger formerly than it is now?-I don't think it.

3207. The principal dealing is in goods?-Yes; in goods. Of course when people ask for tea, they are never refused it; but we don't sell much.

3208. Do you give them tea for goods at the ordinary market price that it is got at in the other grocery shops in town?-I have no idea what their tea costs them at other places. One merchant does not know what another merchant's goods are sold for.

3209. At what prices do you sell your teas?-Generally at 9d. and 10d. per quarter.

3210. Have you only two qualities?-Yes.

3211. Is it always sold in quarter pounds?-No; it is sometimes sold in half ounces.

3212. It is just put up as the people ask for it?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3213. Have you anything further to add to the evidence you previously gave?-I produce a list of names of parties who have sold goods to me, and they can be examined as to the prices they have got for their goods, that the range of prices may be ascertained. [Produces list.]

3214. I believe you also wish to explain something about the number of your knitters?-Yes; I made a mistake about that. I find from the index in our workers' book that the number is upwards of 300. I believe, however, that a great number of the knitters who appear in our books will also appear in the books of other merchants. They take work from two or perhaps three, at the same time; and consequently the aggregate number of knitters is not represented by the number that is found collectively in the books of the employers.

3215. You wish also to speak about Catherine Borthwick's evidence. She said she had never got any money from you; that she had asked you about two years ago for 1s,, when there was about 5s. 6d. due to her; that you refused it; and that she had never asked you for any since?-I have no evidence either to corroborate or to disprove that statement. I have not the least recollection of it; but I don't believe that it happened

3216. Is there anything in your books to contradict it?-Nothing.

3217. Then there is nothing for it but her statement, and your statement on the other side?-Quite so.

3218. In a large business like yours there might be a cash transaction at a time, apart from your books, which was settled for there and then?-Yes, it might have been; but it is a very unlikely thing that she asked me for 1s. in cash and I refused it unless I had very good grounds for doing so. She was generally behind in my books.

3219. But what she deponed to might have happened when she was behind?-Yes; I think it was very seldom, until I settled up with her, that she was not behind.

3220. In the work-book, I notice that dressing is occasionally charged against you on the credit side?-That is in the case where the knitter also dresses, and she is paid for that as well as for the knitting. We sometimes included both in the same payment, but not very often. Now we always separate them.

3221. When you were examined previously with regard to the cost of the wool in a shawl made of English wool, were you speaking of the price which you paid for the wool, or of the price at which you would retail it?-With regard to English or south-country wool, I may just repeat what I said before; that we really do very little in it, especially for fine shawls. I never charged 30s., or anything like it, for a shawl made of Pyrenees wool, because I did not consider that it was real Shetland goods.

3222. Then you deal in the real Shetland goods?-Yes, mostly. Occasionally, if I have to send a shawl of another kind to the south, I state that it is not handspun wool-that it is not the real Shetland wool.

3223. So that the great majority of your goods consists of Shetland wool; and in estimating the cost of production of a shawl, you estimated it at the price you paid for the wool?-Just so.

3224. And not at the retail price to a customer?-No; it was the cash price meant. There is one exception-that is, in the mohair falls-similar to those Mr. Anderson has been referring to, where, as rule, we pay a higher rate for knitting than that mentioned. These mohair falls are the only thing we deal in that is not Shetland.

3225. That is, the grey and black falls?-Yes. We never buy black wool; we always dye the falls after they are knitted.

3226. Are falls and veils the same thing?-We don't buy the mohair black; we think we get a more uniform shade of colour when we buy them in the piece.

3227. I understand you have two shops?-Yes.

3228. One of them is a shop where you only deal in drapery goods?-Yes; where we only deal for cash.

3229. There are no hosiery dealings carried on there?-No.

3230. Are the same prices charged for the drapery goods in the two shops?-There is a very small shade of difference on some things. Some things are exactly the same in both; on others there is a small difference. I should say that there is such a difference on calicoes. There are several things we sell in that shop, such as fancy goods and sewed articles, which are not kept in our hosiery shop at all; but winceys and stuff goods, such as camlets and satteens, and other things for dresses, are charged alike in both shops, so far as I remember.

[Page 72]

3231. Is there any difference made in the price of the tea?-We don't sell tea in the drapery shop. While on this subject I would call attention to one thing that was stated in Mr. Walker's evidence. He said that the merchants gave mostly flowers and ribands, and things of that description in exchange for the hosiery; while the fact is that flowers and ribands are just the kind of goods which I would avoid giving, if I could, because we do not realize a profit on them. In our cash shop we never have flowers or ribands, unless when we are obliged to have them for the accommodation of our customers; and we would rather want them. I was four years in the trade, so far as I recollect, before I had any flowers or ribands in stock at all, because I knew from former experience they were a thing which did not pay.

3232. What is the reason why these things do not pay?-They may pay some people in the south, who charge a higher rate for them; but we do not charge so high for them as in the south.

3233. How are you obliged to have them now?-Because the people will have them, and they have got into the habit of buying them at the ordinary rates. An ordinary retail profit put on any of these things won't pay us, because so many of the flowers are lost, crushed, or destroyed; and sometimes I have seen us have to throw a box of them from the pier. Another thing is that ribands go out of fashion. There are boxes of ribands standing in my shop, which I would sell for one-fourth of the cash I paid for them.

3234. Do you not keep these, goods because you find it necessary to have them in order to induce people to come to your shop with their hosiery goods?-By no means. They come without any inducement of that kind.

3235. But they want them when they are selling their hosiery?- We could do without them, for that part of it. There are many customers who come for them, as well as hosiery customers. When we want a particular article of hosiery, and have an order for it, we can arrange, and often do arrange, to buy it for cash; and the people may go and buy their goods where they like. That is frequently done when we have a standing order for an article; so that we do not keep these things as baits for the public at all.

3236. You buy a good deal of wool from the north isles?-Yes.

3237. I think you said you did not send any of it south?-No; I don't require to send it south.

3238. Are you aware of Shetland wool being bought and sent south in considerable quantities?-I was told by a south-country dealer that he had bought a considerable quantity of wool from Shetland; but that is all. I know about it. I have no personal knowledge of the thing being done.

3239. You don't understand that it is bought up by the proprietors or factors or middle-men?-I never heard anything about that, except from Mr. Walker's evidence; and it is a dream.

3240. You don't buy it yourself for any purpose of that kind?-No; there are none of the merchants who do that. There is one thing in my previous evidence which I wish to correct: I thought of it after I left here. In calculating the value of a 30s. shawl, I put down 14s. as the value of the knitting; but in that case I did not make the deduction I should have made for the percentage of the goods paid for it, which would increase the real profit to the dealer. As, however, in a great many instances, when we require a fine shawl of that kind, a good deal of it is paid in cash, I think that, taking it as a general thing, not more than 1s., 6d. would fall to be deducted for that from the figure I gave. In some cases the price is paid wholly in cash, especially for things of that kind. That sum of 1s. 6d. would therefore fall to be added to the profit if the article was paid in goods; but if paid in cash, then my statement was quite correct.

3241. Did you hear the evidence which has been given by Mr. Anderson with regard to the cost of making shawls and veils?-I did.

3242. It was mostly veils he spoke to, and the selling price of them: do you think his calculations that on subject were generally near the truth?-I believe they were perfectly correct, so far as my own experience goes, but I may say that my experience in that matter has been somewhat different from his, inasmuch, as for that class of wool, and knitting. I often pay a higher rate to good knitters. There is this; however, to be said in my case, that I do not have so many job lots, which compensates to a great extent for the difference; and another thing is that I do not charge such a high price for them as he stated, when sending them south. If I am selling to a private individual, I may but it is very seldom that I sell to private individuals.

3243. That may be accounted for in this way: that you sell more to wholesale customers, while I suppose Mr. Linklater's business in Edinburgh is really a retail business?-Yes; he has a very extensive establishment in Edinburgh.

3244. His own establishment there is a retail one; so that the prices Mr. Anderson was speaking of were probably retail prices?-I suppose so. I think if the one was balanced with the other, there would be found to be very little difference between Mr. Linklater's experience in the trade and my own. I wish it to be distinctly understood, that when I said we got no profit, on the goods except what we realized on the first purchase, I meant that we do not realize indeed we often don't realize so much-as the price we paid for them in goods. In particular cases, we may charge a shade over what the thing has actually cost us; but there are a great many articles for which we must charge less, and that much more than balances the other. If our customers in the south were private individuals or consumers, we could very easily pay the same rate in cash that we now pay in goods, but as we have to sell to retail dealers in a wholesale way, we cannot afford to do that, unless we were to rob the retail dealer of his profit altogether.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, examined.

3245. You are the daughter of Mr. Sinclair, who has just been examined, and one of the assistants in shop?-Yes.

3246. Are you sometimes concerned in the purchase of hosiery goods?-No; I never purchase hosiery.

3247. You only sell in the shop?-Yes.

3248. Is it the case that the lines which are given out in your father's shop are generally brought back by the same parties to whom they are issued? Do you know who the lines are given to?-No; we keep no note of their names.

3249. But do you happen to know them?-I know several cases in which the lines have been brought back by the same parties to whom they were given out; and there have been other cases where I know that they have been given by that party to another party, just the same as sending them an errand.

3250. Do you know of any cases in which they have been brought back by people with whom they have been exchanged for money or for goods which could not be got in your father's shop?-No; they would never mention such a thing to us.

3251. And no such case has come within your knowledge?-I have heard vague reports of such things being done but nothing that I could, state positively. I know that if they had come to the shop and asked money for their lines, they would have got 10d., in the shilling for them from my father.

3252. Have you ever been asked for that?-Very seldom. There was one girl who came in a few nights ago and offered me a veil. My father happened to be in the back shop, and I went to him with it, and he said he would give her 1s. 4d. for the veil. I came back to the girl, and she said, 'Would I give her 1s. 4d. in money?' I said, 'Certainly not,' because the veil season was over; and also I did think that money [Page 73] and goods were the same thing. I said I would give here 1s. 1d. in money, and she asked if I would give her 1s. 2d. I said, 'No;' I would only give her 1s. 1d. and she took that and went away.

3253. Is that a usual sort of transaction?-No. I never heard them asking for money before; at least not asking for it in that way. I have heard them wanting to get the same price in money that they got in goods.

3254. Is that a common thing for them to ask?-Well, it is.

3255. Do you know anything about the work-book?-Yes.

3256. Do you sometimes settle the accounts in that book with the knitters?-Occasionally, when the clerk is out.

3257. Are the items in the account always read over to the knitter?-Yes.

3258. Is there any receipt or acknowledgment given when an account is settled?-Occasionally they take a line for the amount if the balance is in their favour, because sometimes the shop is so crowded that we don't have time to turn up the account.

3259. In that case the account is marked as settled in full?-Yes.

3260. In other cases the balance is carried to the next account simply, without any line?-Yes.

3261. Is the work-book kept in the shop, or in the office at the back?-We used to keep it in the shop, but they came and bothered us at the time we were writing, and we thought it better to keep it in the office. But we take the book into the front shop, and read the items over to them when we settle.

3262. If a woman comes with work and gets it entered in the work-book, and then wants a certain quantity of goods, do you communicate with the clerk at the back before giving out the goods, in order to see the state of her account?-Yes.

3263. Who enters the goods in the book?-The clerk, when he is present; or if he is not present, then any of us who retail the goods may enter them.

3264. Do you go into the back shop for the purpose of doing that?-I take down a note of the goods they get on a slip of paper.

3265. And the contents of that slip are entered into the book?- Yes, by the clerk.

3266. Then there may be a great number of these slips to enter in the course of the day?-They are handed to the clerk at once. If he is busy about anything else, any of us may take the book and mark the goods in ourselves.

3267. Are these slips preserved?-No.

3268. They are just destroyed when entered?-Yes. I have occasionally given them to the people themselves, if it was a case where they were getting goods for another person. If they had been sent an errand by any one, I have handed them their slip, in order to show the person who sent them what they had got.

3269. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to say that in a very short time the Shetland wool will be entirely destroyed, because the breed of sheep is wearing out. The Cheviot wool is taking its place.

3270. You mean that the introduction of Cheviot sheep into Shetland is entirely destroying the breed of native sheep?-Yes.

3271. Do you do a good deal in purchasing wool from the Shetland people?-No; I don't purchase but I know the quality of it.

3272. Do you find from the qualities that pass through your hands, that the Shetland wool is not so good as it used to be?-Yes; it is deteriorating very much.

3273. You find it is becoming more like what you buy from the south?-Yes; there is a great difference upon it. There is more elasticity in the Shetland wool than in the Pyrenees wool.

3274. Do you buy the wool yourself?-No; it is spun and knitted by people.

3275. Do they bring it to you, or have you people who gather it in for you?-They bring it to us to the shop: and I have heard the people very often making complaints that they could not get wool at all from any source.

3276. How do you buy wool?-We do not buy wool at all.

3277. Do you buy Shetland worsted?-Yes.

3278. Do the spinners bring it to your shop and sell it?-Very seldom. We buy it mostly from merchants in the country-in Unst and Fetlar. When a spinner comes in with worsted, she generally wants ready money for it.

3279. When a woman comes with it or sends it, how is she paid?-She gets anything she asks for-either goods at wholesale prices, or the cash.

3280. When you buy worsted and give goods for it, you give them at the wholesale prices it is the same as cash?-Yes.

3281. Are there many merchants who deal in that kind of way?-I suppose most of them do so in the places where it is made. It is mostly in the north isles. Occasionally, I think, they do a little in Dunrossness.

3282. Is it bought in by a shopkeeper at Dunrossness?-I don't know how it is done. I simply know that there are some goods made there.

3283. But where do you get your worsted from?-We don't get worsted from any merchant in Dunrossness. I was merely stating where the worsted was spun.

3284. Do you get Shetland worsted from merchants in the north of the mainland as well as in the north isles?-Yes.

3285. Do you get any from Mossbank or Lunna?-No.

3286. Do you get any from Northmavine?-I think we get a little worsted from a merchant there. The books will show where it is got.

3287. Do you know about the prices paid for goods bought in the shop? I don't mean goods knitted you, but goods bought?-Yes.

3288. What do you generally pay for a dozen of men's hose?-I think about 20s.-sometimes more, but very seldom less. That is a thing very seldom sold now, except knickerbocker stockings.

3289. I see in an account five white lace shawls sold each. What would be the price of these if bought over the counter?-8s. in goods.

3290. If paid in cash, what would the price be?-About is 9d., I should say.

3291. Do you buy many of them for cash?-We sometimes buy the larger things for cash. I have been in the shop when large shawls were paid for in that way.

3292. In the same account I see twelve hap-shawls at 11s. 6d.: what would these be bought for across the counter?-It is very likely that 11s. 6d. would be paid for them in goods.

3293. In this account I see one hap-shawl entered at 14s., and then at 13s.: what does that mean?-It means that 14s., was paid for it, and it was sold for 13s. Perhaps it may have been slightly ill-coloured.

3294. In the wholesale trade list which has been given in, I see white, brown, and grey shawls, natural colours, charged 8s. 6d. to 18s.: do you know, from what you see in the shop, the prices at which these are generally bought over the counter?-They are just bought at the same prices at which they are invoiced, and which are put down there.

3295. When a shawl is brought to the shop and paid for in goods, is it ticketed for the south market?-Yes; the fine shawls are ticketed.

3296. Wrap or winter shawls, 8s. 6d.: would these be ticketed?- No.

3297. Why?-Because my father knows the prices so well; they are sold by measure.

3298. The prices at which they are charged do not depend so much on fancy?-No.

3299. Then the prices of these shawls are fixed afterwards?-Yes.

3300. How do you know that the prices which are charged for these shawls are the same as have been paid for them over the counter?-Because I have seen haps sold at the counter for 8s. 6d.; and afterwards, [Page 74] when they were ready for the market, they were charged at the same, or nearly the same, price.

3301. Don't you sometimes see them charged at a higher price?-I cannot say exactly, because I do not always notice what the prices are; but I know that I have sometimes seen the same prices charged. I have noticed that particularly in haps.

3302. There are grey and brown long shawls, 20s. to 24s. are these also haps?-Yes.

3303. Are they generally bought at from 20s. to 24s.?-Yes.

3304. And sold at the same prices?-Yes, I have noticed that.

3305. You have nothing to do with the pricing of them yourself?- Nothing at all. I merely see the tickets, and recognise the article. Perhaps there was something particular about it which led me to recognise it.

3306. How often has that happened?-I could not say.

3307. Has it happened a dozen times?-It has surely happened more than a dozen times. That is a very small number.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, examined.

3308. Are you a shopman to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

3309. You are not the bookkeeper?-No.

3310. Do you know the prices at which hosiery goods are bought across the counter?-Yes.

3311. Do you also know the prices at which these same goods are invoiced to the southern market?-Yes.

3312. Is the price at which they are bought and the price at which they are sold the same, or different, on the ordinary run of goods?-They are charged to the wholesale or the retail dealer in the south at the same price as we pay for them in goods at the counter.

3313. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes.

3314. The goods, I understand, are not all ticketed when bought?-Fine shawls are generally ticketed, but haps and other goods are judged of afterwards, when being looked out in order to be sent to the market in the south.

3315. In the case of fine shawls, is it within your own knowledge that the ticket put upon them at the time of the purchase bears generally the same price as has been paid for them in goods?- Yes. Mr Sinclair puts up these goods himself for the market, and the ticket is put on them at the time of the purchase, in order to bring to his remembrance, when he is putting them up for the market, the price he paid for them at the counter.

3316. In all these cases there is only one valuation of the shawl, and it is made to the person who brings it to you for sale?-Yes.

3317. The ticket is put on them, and the invoice price is the same as the price on the ticket?-Yes, the same.

3318. Do you make no allowance, in that case, for the loss upon the dressing or the dyeing of the shawl?-When a girl comes with an article that is ill-coloured, she may ask a certain price for it; but we state that we cannot give her that price, owing to it being ill-coloured, and that it requires to be dyed. In that case we deduct the price of the dyeing from the price which is paid to her.

3319. Is that deduction made before the price is put on the ticket?-We don't ticket it then. It has to be sent south to the dyer, and to come back and to be dressed here.

3320. In that case you must make an estimate, because you cannot identify the shawl afterwards?-No; we just leave it to our own judgment afterwards.

3321. Then it appears that you don't invoice the goods at exactly the same price that is paid in every case?-We don't invoice them at the same price if we are selling them to private individuals; but when we sell them to a retail dealer, we invoice them at the same price.

3322. But you have said that very often you require to send them to the dyer, in which case they are not ticketed at the time you purchase them?-No; but the retail dealer must pay for the dyeing.

3323. But the goods are not always ticketed at the time they are bought?-No; not always. I did not say they were.

3324. Are they ticketed, as a rule, when they are bought?-The finest of the lace goods or shawls are ticketed.

3325. And veils?-No, not veils; but the fine lace shawls are generally ticketed.

3326. How is the invoice price of the veils fixed, if they are not ticketed when they are bought?-We can easily judge of the quality of a veil by looking at it, and we can tell what we paid for it. Of course, in fixing the price, we always refer to what we paid for it, and we know that at a glance by the quality of the work and the worsted.

3327. You cannot tell what you paid for a particular lot of veils, because you cannot identify them?-No.

3328. But you know by the quality what they likely to have cost you?-Yes.

3329. Is the price at which veils are sold generally the same as that at which they are bought?-Yes. Veils which have been bought across the counter are charged at the same price that we consider we paid for them.

3330. Are many of the shawls dyed?-A good many. Some are dyed on account of being ill-coloured. Perhaps we don't discover, at the time when they are taken in over the counter, that they are ill-coloured; we only find that out afterwards, and then we have to dye them. Sometimes we dye shawls, not on account of them being ill-coloured, but because we require them of a particular colour.

3331. Is that done with fine shawls?-Both with fine and coarse.

3332. But not with haps?-Sometimes with haps too. We dye haps scarlet and black.

3333. Therefore there is a considerable quantity of the shawl goods which it is not possible to ticket at the time when they are bought, because they have afterwards to be dyed-Yes, a considerable quantity.

3334. And, in that case, the price is fixed afterwards, according to your own notions of the quality?-Yes.

3335. Who fixes the invoice price of shawls when they are sent out finally to the market?-Mr. Sinclair himself. He takes that department.

3336. Do you know whether, in doing so, he takes into account the market price in the south?-Although he makes up the articles, they pass through my hands in packing, and I see the tickets. They generally have a ticket on them, in order to guide the clerk in checking them and entering them into the book.

3337. But you don't know the principle on which Mr. Sinclair values these shawls when they are invoiced?-He just judges of them in the same manner as he did at first when taking them in over the counter.

3338. What proportion of the shawls may be revalued in that way?-Will it be one-third or one-half of them?-They are all re-valued in that way, unless those which are ticketed.

3339. But what proportion of them are not ticketed at first?-I could not say.

3340. Is it not the case that very few of them are ticketed at first?-There are only the finest lace shawls that are ticketed at first.

3341. Therefore the bulk of the shawls are not ticketed then, but valued afterwards?-Yes; they are valued in the same manner at that time as they were when taken in at the counter.

3342. Are you in a position to state whether or not that valuation which is made when they are sent out exceeds the valuation which is put upon them when they are purchased for the market?-I have reason to believe from Mr. Sinclair's long experience in the trade, that he will know to a fraction what he paid for the [Page 75] shawls; and I can swear that they are not charged by him at a higher price than the price which was paid for them in goods at the counter. Of course deductions are made afterwards by the wholesale dealer, if he thinks the article is inferior.

3343. Do you issue the lines which are given out in the shop?-I very often issue lines. I perhaps issue more of them than any one else.

3344. Do you also serve customers who have lines?-Yes.

3345. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the lines are generally brought back by the parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are generally brought back by the owner of the hosiery.

3346. Is it the party herself to whom the line has been given that usually brings it back?-Very often but sometimes they may send a line in by another party as a messenger.

3347. How do you know that?-Sometimes a line may be brought back an hour after it has been given out, by a different party, and they will perhaps make remark in order to let me know that they have been sent by the party to whom the line belonged.

3348. Are you aware that the lines are exchanged or sold by the parties to whom they were first issued?-I have heard something to that effect this very morning.

3349. But you have not known of that in your own experience?- No. It has not come under my notice, unless from report.

3350. Does the party bringing one of these lines for goods ever tell you that she had purchased it?-No. I don't remember an instance of that kind.

3351. You don't remember any particular case in which there had been a sale of the line for cash, or for other goods which you don't supply?-I say there was an instance this morning which came under my notice, in which a line had been exchanged, and in which the party had got cash for the line.

3352. From whom had the cash been got?-I could give the name of the party to whom the line belonged, but not of the other party.

3353. Was that an instance of a line being brought back by a person to whom it had not been originally issued?-No; it was merely a party in the shop who said that some time ago-she did not state the time-she had a line which she had given to another person, and had got cash for it. But at the same time she said that she did not ask cash from Mr. Sinclair, or she might have got it. She felt diffident in asking for cash, because she had brought her hosiery to the shop on the understanding that she was to take goods for it. The receipt she got had not been a cash transaction.

3354. Is that the only time, in your experience in the shop, that you have heard of these lines being exchanged for cash, or for other goods than those which Mr. Sinclair sells?-It is the only one I can point to in particular.

3355. But do you swear that you don't know that lines have been so exchanged?-No, I would not swear that. I said I have heard a vague report that on several occasions they have been exchanged, but I could not point to any other case than the one I have mentioned.

3356. Is cash ever given in your shop upon lines?-Yes, often. It is given on lines, even when the hosiery article has been taken in over the counter with understanding that the party was to take all goods for it.

3357. The lines bear that their value is to be given in goods but notwithstanding that you know that cash had been given on them?-Yes.

3358. How often?-I could not say how often, but I can point to one woman in particular who has got cash in that way. She stated that she was in need of it, and she got it even when the hosiery article was taken with the understanding that only goods were to be given for it.

3359. In that case, was any discount taken for cash?-No.

3360. Was the whole amount given in cash?-Yes, all cash. She said she required it to buy meal with.

3361. What was the amount of that line?-It was the case with that woman on several lines, not on one line in particular.

3362. Who was the woman?-I should prefer to give her name in private.

3363. What proportion of her line was given in cash?-I could not say what proportion, but she got the proportion she asked for. Of course, when giving money in that way, we considered it was a deduction from the profit on our goods.

3364. Then it was given as a sort of charity?-It might be considered as a sort of favour, because it was a deduction from our profit.

3365. Do you say that it was really a deduction from the profit?- Yes.

3366. But you said before, and I have been informed by other parties, that there is no profit at all upon the hosiery goods; so that if you pay the lines in cash, you take away all the profit you make upon a purchase of hosiery?-Yes; that is only if we charge the wholesale dealer the same price.

3367. But you say that, practically, the wholesale dealer is charged the same price?-Yes. Even should we pay the same price in cash as we get from the wholesale dealer, if we were sure that this party would come back to the shop with the money which we gave her and take our goods, it would not be a loss; but if she did not come back, then there would be a loss.

3368. In other words, the effect of the lines and of paying in goods is, that these sellers of hosiery are bound to take their goods at your shop, instead of another; and therein lies your profit?-Of course. We just have our profit on the goods. We have two sales for one profit.

3369. But you say that although you suspected, and had heard from rumour, that these lines were commonly exchanged for money or for other goods than you dealt in, you have known of no particular case except the one you have mentioned?-No.

3370. Have you known of cases where goods which had been delivered in return for hosiery had been exchanged by the women for other goods or for cash?-I could not point out any case.

3371. Did you ever hear of any case?-I could not point out any one.

3372. But did you ever hear of any such case?-I have heard that rumour, the same as I heard of the other thing.

3373. Have the women told you that themselves?-Yes; just speaking of it among the crowd in the shop.

3374. You don't remember the names of these women?-I do not.

3375. Have you any doubt at all that that is done?-No; I am led to believe that it is done.

3376. How are you led to believe that?-Because I have heard the vague report so often-not once, but several times.

3377. Does that report lead you to believe that it is done to any great extent?-I could not say to what extent.

3378. How does report speak of it?-Just that it was not uncommon. The report did not say that it was very common, but only that it was common.

3379. Do you swear that you cannot remember the names of any women who have done it?-I do.

3380. Or who have spoken to you about it?-None, except the one who has said it to-day

3381. Or that you have heard speak of it?-No.

3382. In the journal, or work-book, I see that there is sometimes a line entered. I do not mean merely that the balance is struck, but sometimes there are entries, 'To lines.' Can you explain that?- Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to pay another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark a line for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line to give to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the amount in goods.

3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of paying their debt to another?-Yes.

3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. [Page 76] It has happened occasionally. I have entered such lines myself in the work-book; and sometimes, although not very often, when looking over their account, instead of taking the balance that may be in their favour, they will take a line for it. I may say, however, that where hosiery has been taken from a person on the understanding that they were to take all goods for it, I have never known a case where cash was refused to them when they said they were in need of it.

3385. That just amounts to this: that Mr. Sinclair, in a case of that kind, throws away the whole of his profit?-Yes; it shows a charitable spirit in Mr. Sinclair.

3386. In the case of Mary Ann Sinclair, there was an entry in the journal of cash paid to William Smith for meal: can you explain how that was done?-I heard Mr. Sinclair's examination about that. His attention was directed to an entry of 'Cash, for meal,' he was asked why that was not entered merely cash. I cannot say whether the entry was in my writing or not, but I remember that girl coming into the shop and asking for cash, and she made a remark that it was for meal. I think that the entry is in my hand, and that I just put it down as she said it.

3387. The giving of that cash was a deviation from your usual practice?-Yes, these parties depend chiefly upon the knitting, and they get a larger supply of cash than the general workers. There are not many cases, I don't think we have a similar case in the town, where the parties depend entirely on their knitting. Our knitters belong chiefly to the country, and the knitting is with them an extra piece of work.

3388. In the same witness's account there was another entry of 'Cash, for meal:' do you explain that in the same way?-Yes; but of course they were at liberty to go to any shop for it they liked.

3389. Does the entry, 'To William Smith, for meal,' mean that you paid the money directly to Smith?-Sometimes we did. His account would show that the amount which he received from us was just the same as had been marked to the women. In his account he would state that he had given out so much meal to them.

3390. Has Mr. Smith an account with R. Sinclair & Co.?- Sometimes there was an account between them at that time.

3391. Was that account for supplies to work-people?-Sometimes it would be for such supplies along with Mr. Sinclair's personal account.

3392. Does Mr. Smith make frequent supplies to Mr. Sinclair's work-people?-No; it has not been done very frequently.

3393. To what class of work-people are these supplies made?- Chiefly to the party who has been already examined, Mary Ann Sinclair, and that has not been done of late. These girls have not been so dependent on their knitting lately, because they have got help from another quarter.

3394. Then this payment for meal, and that payment to W. Smith for meal, were really so much taken out of Mr. Sinclair's profit?- I think so, because their knitting was estimated at the goods price, not at the cash price.

3395. I see that in the same account there are other two entries of purchases of meal?-Yes, that was merely put down because the parties said they wanted meal, and for a considerable time they had just a weekly allowance.

3396. The entries of these two purchases of meal are really equivalent to entries of cash?-Yes; sometimes when it is said, 'Cash, for meal,' they got the cash into their own hands.

3397. And sometimes it was entered in the account with Mr. Smith?-Yes.

3398. Was that account of Mr. Smith's a personal account of Mr. Sinclair's?-I suppose it was just made out as an account of R. Sinclair & Co.

3399. What was the nature of the dealings with Smith? Have you seen his account?-I cannot remember. I saw the account when it was handed in, but I cannot say what was in it.

3400. You don't know about it personally?-No.

3401. Is there anything you wish to state on the subject of this inquiry?-I wish to state that, supposing a new system of cash payments is adopted, there will be a change, which I don't think will be altogether in favour of the worker. No doubt it would be to some extent.

3402. What difference would there be?-I shall suppose that a woman comes in with a shawl, say to-day, while the present system exists, and gets 20s. in goods. She wants grey cotton, and she will get forty yards of it for her 20s. To-morrow she comes in, and the system is changed, and she must be paid in cash. Well, she gets the cash, and she requires the same kind of goods, but she thinks there is no need for going out of the shop, as the goods here are as cheap as anywhere else. Then she will get for her cash the usual discount of 5 per cent. That would be 16s. 91/2d., and she would only have then about thirty-three yards of cotton instead of forty yards.

3403. But in the case you have supposed, would not the cotton be sold cheaper, because the merchant would not require to put all his profit on the cotton, as you say he does now, but he would also put a profit on the hosiery; and therefore he could afford to sell the cotton at a smaller profit?-The merchant would not have two profits on his hosiery.

3404. If he was buying for cash, he would?-No, it would merely be embarking his capital a second time.

3405. If he were buying the shawl for 16s. in cash, would he not sell it for 20s., as he does just now?-Yes; he would embark that cash again.

3406. That allows a profit of 4s. upon the hosiery, perhaps under deductions for certain contingencies; but it certainly allows a profit which on your own statement, he does not have now. According to your own statement, there is no profit on the hosiery now, because it is bought for the same price in goods as it is sold for; but if he were paying 16s. in cash for it, there would then be a profit upon the hosiery of 3s. or 4s. Now, would not the fact that a profit is taken upon the hosiery enable him to sell his cotton goods with a somewhat less margin of profit than he does just now?-It might.

3407. Besides, the case which you have put just now implies that the woman wants something which Mr. Sinclair has in his shop?- Yes.

3408. It does not allow at all for a case in which she wants something different and in order to get which she might perhaps have to part with the goods at a loss?-Viewing it in the light I have stated would perhaps be a disadvantage to the knitter; but there would certainly be an advantage to her, as she would have cash with which to go and buy groceries or other things wherever she wanted,

3409. Then that would be an advantage?-It would be an advantage; but another disadvantage to her might be, that the merchant would not take her goods at all unless he actually wanted them and he had orders for them, and unless they were of good quality. There would thus be only one advantage against two disadvantages.

3410. But if one merchant did not take her goods, another would, if they were worth buying at all?-Perhaps he might; but I was only speaking about how the thing might act if such a system were introduced. There might be a second advantage, in this way: that more encouragement might be given to the trade in the south, as the cash system might be a means of producing better articles. The knitters might be induced to bestow more pains on the manufacture of their goods and then there would not be periods when the market was in a dead, dull kind of state, as it sometimes is now.

3411. Is it ever in a dead, dull kind of state?-Yes, at certain seasons it is.

3412. Is there ever a time when you refuse to take Shetland goods?-Yes; at this very season we cannot buy veils at all, because we have no market for them. The market is blocked up entirely. But if the manufacture was improved, and the goods were somewhat [Page 77] better than they are now, there might be a regular flow of goods into the market.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3413. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to Mr. Bruce's evidence as to the account with Smith, I think he is mistaken in saying that there is any entry of that meal in any of Smith's accounts. I remember only one case where Miss Sinclair got her meal from Smith, and I went myself, either that day or the following day, to him with the money. That is the only case I know of; and I am almost sure there is no such thing as meal supplied to her entered in any contra account of Mr. Smith, because we paid the meal in cash at once. I know of no other person being supplied by Mr. Smith except her. Another thing is with regard to the number of shawls that are dyed. Mr. Bruce does not seem to recollect that the number of shawls dyed bears a very small proportion to the number of shawls we sell. It is only a fraction of them that are dyed. I don't think there is one out of eighty which requires to be dyed for selling south. With regard to the valuation of the shawls, the fact is, that although sometimes it happens that we detect a fault in the goods when we are buying them, and make a deduction for that from the price, yet in the majority of cases the faults are only detected after the goods are bought, and no deduction for that can be made from the price which we pay to the knitters. In all such cases we have to dye them for nothing.

3414. Do you mean that the fault is detected after the shawls are bought from you?-Not after they are bought from us, but after we have bought them; and consequently we have to dye them. Then when they are dyed, they very often, indeed generally, do not bring more than they would have brought if they had been white; but that is such a trifling thing, that it is not worth speaking about.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANN EUNSON, examined.

3415. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.

3416. You have come forward voluntarily to make a statement?- Yes.

3417. Nobody has sent you here?-No.

3418. Have you knitted for a long time to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, for a long time; I don't remember how long.

3419. What have you made?-Little hap-shawls.

3420. How have you been paid for them?-I have been well paid for them, according to what I sought.

3421. Did you get money or goods?-When I sought money I got it; but when I required anything which he had, I thought it was my duty to take it from him, and not from another. He always gave me a little money when I asked it.

3422. How much would you get at a time?-I might not ask above 6d. at a time, but I would get it.

3423. How much would you make in a week by knitting?-It was just as I had time to sit at it.

3424. Did you do a good deal at it?-Not a great deal I made a good many haps for myself when I could. I am a widow. I had seven children, who are all dead, and I have supported myself entirely by my work.

3425. Have you supported yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes. I had no other work, except that of going for peats, or anything else I had to do.

3426. Were these your own peats?-Yes.

3427. Therefore you had no other means except by knitting?-No; except that for some time back I have had 1s. a week from the parochial board.

3428. Before you got that, did you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; only at times I have got some things from friends.

3429. Did you get your meal and provisions from the proceeds of your knitting?-Yes.

3430. How did you manage that, when you were paid mostly in goods?-Often, when I had a little time, I made small shawls for myself; and when travelling merchants came to town, they would take my shawls and sell them for me for a little money.

3431. Did you do that because it was not the custom to give money for such things at the merchants' shops?-It was not the usual thing always to give money at the merchants shops. If they had given it, I might not have given my shawls to these travelling merchants,

3432. If you had got money from the merchants shops, you would have been as ready to sell your shawls to them as to these strangers?-Yes; but I sold some haps to Mr. Linklater, and got much the same from him as I got from them.

3433., Only you got it in goods?-Yes; but if had sought a little money, I would have got it.

3434. What was the price of the hap-shawls which you made?-I have got as high as 3s. and 4s. for them. I don't make the fine knitting.

3435. Do you ever make hose or stockings?-Yes.

3436. What do you get for them?-I don't make many stockings; I think I am better paid by making these little haps.

3437. Do you take any lodgers?-I don't take any now. I am in the Widows' Asylum; but before I went there, I took one or two.

3438. Did these lodgers help you in your living?-Yes, a little.

3439. Then you would get money in that way with which to purchase provisions?-Yes; but I could not get so much knitting made when I had lodgers.

3440. But the money you got from them would help you to buy meal and bread, and what you wanted to live upon?-No; I did not have above 6d. a week from my lodgers, and sometimes it was 1s.; but I got through with it, and now it is come to a conclusion.

3441. How old are you?-I think I am about seventy-two.

3442. You are still knitting a little?-Yes; my fingers are as clever as can be yet.

3448. You don't get money for your knitting now?-I get money from Mr. Linklater when I ask it.

3444. How often do you ask it?-I don't like to trouble him too much, but I know that he would give me what I sought; and many a time I have got it. He often supplied me when I required it, and when I had nothing in his hands to get.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, recalled.

3445. I understand you wish to make some correction on your former evidence?-Yes; I find I made a mistake. On going back to the shop after giving my evidence, I found the same girl there whom I mentioned before, and I spoke to her about what I had said here. She said it was not a line that she had exchanged. She has an account in the book, and she had got a bonnet, and had given it to the other party. Of course it was to the same effect as if she had given a line. She had got goods from us, and had given them to another person for cash.

3446. Was all the rest of your statement correct?-Yes.

3447. Have you anything to say with regard to the proportion of goods which are re-dyed about which Mr. Sinclair made some explanation?-What I meant to say was, that all the goods not ticketed are re-valued, and that some of them are dyed,-these, of course, not being re-valued until they come back from the dyer. Only the finer qualities of goods are ticketed at the time they are taken from the customer.

[Page 78]

3448. So that the larger proportion of goods are, in point of fact, re-valued?-Yes. By being re-valued, I mean that they are judged of again in the same way that they were judged of, on being taken from the customer. I don't mean to say that a different price is put upon the article; it may be the same price.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3449. Is there anything you wish to add?-I may make one remark about that last point,-the valuation of the goods. Many years ago I had a partner, from which the firm took its name of Sinclair & Co. At that time we ticketed all the shawls that we bought, with the exception of the lower-priced ones. We found it a little inconvenient to be always doing that, and my partner and I, in order to test our own judgment with regard to these articles, entered the goods in a book at the ticketed value when we bought them. When we put them out to the dressing, of course the tickets were taken off; but when they came back, we re-valued them according to our own judgment, without any reference to the entries we had made in the book; and I can declare on my oath that we never varied one per cent. on the things-we knew their value so well. When I came to see that I could judge of the values so well, I did not ticket the lower qualities of goods-only those of the value of which there could be any doubt.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, MARGARET CLUNAS, examined.

3450. You are a native of Unst, and you have lived there until lately?-Yes.

3451. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

3452. For whom did you knit in Unst?-For Mr. Thomas Jamieson.

3453. Is he a merchant and purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.

3454. Did you knit with wool supplied by him?-Yes; generally.

3455. You sometimes knitted with worsted of your own?-Yes.

3456. How were you paid for what you knitted with his worsted?-The veils were 1s. when made with Scotch worsted, and 10d. when made with Shetland worsted, and for shawls of twenty-four scores we were paid 9s. for knitting.

3457. What do you mean by twenty-four scores?-That was the size of the shawl.

3458. Did he pay you in money when you knitted for him in that way?-No.

3459. Did you ever get any money from him?-No, I never got it, because it was a thing he never gave, and we never asked for it.

3460. Were you content to take the value in goods?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

3461. When were you not content to do that?-When I could not fall in with the things I was wanting.

3462. Was that often?-Not very often; but sometimes he was out of things I wanted.

3463. When you wanted anything which you could not fall in with in his shop, what did you do?-Sometimes he sent for it to us, and sometimes not; and we had then to take just what things were there.

3464. Did you live with your father?-Yes.

3465. He kept you in food, so that you did not require to buy any food for yourself?-Only sometimes in the summer time chiefly.

3466. Did you work out in the summer time?-Yes, for day's wages.

3467. Then you did not require to knit for your living, but only for your clothing?-Only for our clothing; but of course we could not have got food for our knitting from that man, even if we had required it. He would not have given it.

3468. How much would you make in the week in Unst by knitting?-Perhaps 3s. or 4s., according to what we did.

3469. That was his value in goods?-Yes.

3470. Were you paid in the same way when you knitted with your own worsted?-Yes, we were generally paid in the same way.

3471. What kind of goods did you get from Mr Jamieson?- Cotton and winceys.

3472. Did you get tea?-He would sometimes refuse to give above a quarter pound of tea on a 9s. shawl he did not like to give much tea.

3473. Why?-He called it a money article, and he would not give it.

3474. How long is it since you left Unst?-It is about two or three months since I left it first, but I have been home again for some time.

3475. Did you come to Lerwick to knit?-No, I came to be a servant.

3476. Are you not knitting here now?-Yes, I am knitting at present.

3477. Are you out of a place?-Yes.

3478. Do you deal in the same way here as you did in Unst, or is there any difference?-There is a woman in Lerwick that I knit to, and she gets money for our goods, and is thus able to pay us in money.

3479. Who is that?-Miss Hutchison, Burn's Lane.

3480. Does she always pay you in money?-Yes; or if she has any little thing, which she has got, we can get it.

3481. Are there other merchants in Unst besides Mr. Jamieson who buy hosiery?-Yes.

3482. Who are they?-Mr. Alexander Sandison, at Uyea Sound.

3483. Where is Mr. Jamieson's place?-At Westing.

3484. How did you happen to have wool of your own to knit with?-We generally bought it from people who had wool.

3485. You got it from the neighbours?-Yes.

3486. What did you pay for fine Shetland worsted?-We bought the wool, and we spun it for ourselves.

3487. Did you ever sell the worsted that you spun?-Yes.

3488. What did you get for it?-3d. a cut.

3489. Was that from Mr. Jamieson?-Yes; or from Mr. Sandison, or any of them.

3490. Was that paid to you in money?-No.

3491. Was it always paid in goods?-Yes, but we would have got more money articles for the worsted than we could get for knitting.

3492. They would have given you tea for worsted?-Yes.

3493. Would they not have given cash for it?-We never asked it; but I believe if we had asked it, we would have got it for worsted.

3494. Then you did not ask money for your worsted, simply because you wanted the goods?-Yes

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA ANDERSON or NICHOLSON, examined.

3495. You live in Lerwick?-Yes, at the Docks, but we call it Lerwick.

3496. Your husband is alive?-Yes.

3497. Do you sometimes knit?-I don't knit so much at present as I was accustomed to do, on account of my husband being at home; and I don't require to do it.

3498. Have you heard a good deal of the evidence which has been given here?-Yes; I came here for that purpose, but not to speak. I wished to hear the evidence which was given, because I had heard so much said on both sides of the subject.

3499. In the evidence you have heard, is there much that you differ from and wish to correct?-As I have [Page 79] had a good deal of knowledge with regard to the hosiery business and about the payment in goods, I should like to say what I know about that, and what I think would be a better plan to take, so far as my experience goes.

3500. You have heard a description given of the system as it exists,-how hosiery is paid for in goods or in lines?-I have not only heard it, but I have had experience of it for a long time. The first shawl I knitted was in 1840, and since then almost all that I have done has been in the hosiery line, either knitting or dressing.

3501. Has all your work been paid for by goods in an account?- Almost the whole of it has been paid in that way, that is, what I have done in Lerwick; but I have done something for Miss Hutchison. I have also sent some goods south to Mr. John White, and been paid for them in money.

3502. But all that you have done for the merchants in Lerwick has been paid for to you in goods?-I think the whole of it.

3503. You are speaking now of all the shops in Lerwick?-I don't have any particular statement to make about one more than another, because I have dealt with three or four different shops.

3504. Are you speaking now of articles which you have knitted with your own wool, or with the wool which was given out to you by merchants?-I chiefly knitted an article and sold it; but I was in the way of dressing for a good many years, and, I saw then how the people complained about getting goods for their work. Their complaints on that subject were very frequent, and in some cases I thought they had great reason to complain.

3505. Why was that?-Because the goods were charged so much more in some cases than what they could have been got for in ready money. I may tell you what first opened my mind to that point. I required a good deal of money at one time. I could not get it in the way we were then doing, and I then adopted the plan of trying to dress for some of the hosiers, and getting money for it.

3506. How long ago was that?-I think it will be about sixteen years ago. Fourteen years past in July I went south and sold a Shetland shawl to Mr. Mackenzie, a Shetland warehouseman, in Princes Street, Edinburgh. He asked me what I wanted for the shawl, and I said 10s. He said he would give me 8s. I told him I could get 10s. in Lerwick for it, from the merchants there; and he said, 'But when I give you 8s., that is just as good to you as 10s. from them.' I had felt the truth of that, but I had never seen it properly before.

3507. Did he explain to you how 8s. in cash from him was equal to 10s. from the merchants in Lerwick?-He told me the profit was laid on the goods; and at that time, and before that time, I will declare it was.

3508. You mean that the goods were dearer in Lerwick than you could have bought them in the south?-Not only in the south, but dearer than we could have bought them in another shop in the town. We could have bought them cheaper in shops in Lerwick when we were not dealing in the hosiery business.

3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in hosiery?-Yes.

3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience, because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I don't say at them all, but I know there are some of the drapery shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went into a shop, and saw a piece that I thought would do. The merchant brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another merchant had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind, and I told this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, ' I will give it to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;' and I said, 'Well, I will give you 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards of it;' and he gave it me. A day or two afterwards a woman came into my house and saw the goods, and said, 'That is the same as I have bought; what did you pay for that?'-I said I had paid money, because it is an understanding that some shops can give it for less with money than with hosiery. I told her I paid 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she had paid 2s. of hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or, 6s. 6d. for 31/4 yards-just the quantity required.

3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence, and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for us. I know that many a poor creature in Lerwick, if she could get money for her articles, even although she were to get less of it, could make more of it than she does now, by getting the money in her own hand, to be applied for any purpose she thought proper. I heard you ask one of the witnesses whether people would give them articles for less in money than in goods, and that was what made me think over it.

3512. Do you think they would be willing to do so?-I think so. I remember one time when Mr. Mackenzie-the same gentleman I have already mentioned-came down to Lerwick and stayed here for some time, and he gave money for the articles that were brought to him, but scarcely so much as his own customers in Lerwick will give you in goods; and that was the way he came to know that if he gave me 8s., he would pay me as well as some of those who paid me with 10s.

3513. Did you sell anything to him at that time?-I sold to him at the time I was south. I did not sell to him at Lerwick. I could not get in to see him there, because there were so many people who came with their work for the sake of getting money for it, although it was a less sum that he gave than the merchants here.

3514. How long ago was that?-It was when Mr. Harrison was dealing in the business. I think it will be about twenty-five years ago.

3515. Then the custom at that time was to deal in goods, as it is now?-Yes; and indeed the goods are rather a better price now than they were then. We could get scarcely any money articles at that time at all. I think that the articles are more reasonably priced now than they were at that time. I have seen us go into a shop then, and they would ask us what sort of goods we wanted for our knitting; and if they saw we wanted money article they would perhaps not take the goods at all.

3516. You say that you know many girls who would be much better off by being paid in money?-Yes, if what they tell me is true. They say that there are many purposes to which they would require to put money if they had it, but they cannot get it without doing something for it in some other way, as has been already explained. I have heard you put a question to some of them about their being compelled to sell their lines. I don't know any case of that kind, but I know that they have done that, or equivalent to it, by taking a piece of cotton out of the shops and selling it in order to serve the purpose they required the money for.

3517. I suppose some of them manage to live by taking in lodgers occasionally?-That is done only on very small scale in Lerwick.