NOTES 1. (continued 17)

5606. Is the probability that the fishermen would be discontented your principal reason for objecting to that system?-Yes.

5607. If it could be carried out, would it simplify your own business?-Yes, it would simplify my business very much. If the men had boats, and lines of their own, and did not need any advance, but had all their money to take, and I could pay it at the end of the week, it would simplify matters very much indeed.

5608. Under that system, however there would be difficulty in advancing the men?-We could not give advances to them at all; and if we did not make advances, they could not go to the fishing.

5609. Is the system generally followed in your establishment, that of advancing boats and lines to the fishermen?-Yes, whenever it is needed. There are solitary cases where men buy their own boats, having money laid past; but that is very rare.

5610. When they do so, do they pay the price by instalments, or do they pay down the money?-They pay for them by instalments on a particular principle of payment which has been adopted for the purpose. That principle is this: The boat is built by any carpenter the men choose to employ; the price is paid for it, and that is charged to their account. There is generally a hire of £2, 10s. paid every year for a six-oared boat; that is placed to the credit of the boat yearly, to enable the men to pay up for their boat, so that they may really have it of their own, because I consider it would be better for me if they had them. When the men buy their boats, I give them 3d. per, cwt. additional for each cwt. of fish caught to go to the credit of their boat until it is paid; and when once the boat is their own, they get that additional price into their own private accounts, and it is paid to them in cash whenever the price of the boat is paid up.

5611. Do you mean that you give 3d. per cwt. higher to these men than you give to men who hire a boat?-Yes.

5612. And you give that to a man who has a boat of his own to begin with?-If he has a boat of his own, he gets the 3d.

5613. Then, when you charge for boat-hire, you charge 3d. per cwt. in addition on the price of the fish?-No, we don't charge that, but they get 3d. per cwt. less. For instance, the price this year for ling was 8s. The crew gets settled for that; and if they had been buying the boat, we put 3d. per cwt. to the credit of the account for the boat, in order to enable them to acquire it for themselves.

5614. And you would give the same advantage to man who possessed his own boat originally?-Yes; if he possessed his own boat, he would be better entitled to it, because then I would be running no risk. In the other case, the men might lose the boat, and then I would have nothing to get for it.

5615. But when you charge the boat-hire, the men are obliged to take a smaller price for their fish in addition to having the hire to pay for it?-Yes, and even in that case we are worse off, because the boats cost much more than the amount of the hire will cover. We are better off giving them the 3d. to enable them to get a boat of their own.

5616. I suppose when the boat is their own the men take better care of it, and it will last longer?-Yes, very commonly.

5617. And I suppose they take better care of it even before it becomes their own?-Generally they do, although I have some men who take very great care of their materials even when they are hiring them. There are great differences in men in that way.

5618. Is that a system you have adopted yourself, in order to induce the men to become the owners of their own boats?-Yes, I don't know any other curer who uses it.

5619. That shows that you have no interest in having the men hiring out a boat from you?-No; very far from it.

5620. How long does it generally take for a man to pay off a boat when he buys it in that way?-Buying it in that way, if their fishing was anything good, the boat's crew would clear it in about five fishing seasons.

5621. It would then become their joint property?-Yes.

5622. How long does a boat generally last?-The [Page 139] greatest length of time they are used for is 12 years; but very often they give them up when they are 6 or 7 years old. Perhaps the boat is not good, and they won't risk it any longer.

5623. In that case, do they generally begin a new arrangement for the purchase of another boat?-Yes, for the purchase of a boat, if it is their own. If it is a hired boat, then it is thrown on the curer's hands to provide them with another.

5624. What is the usual rate for a boat-hire throughout Shetland? -I think £2, 10s. is a pretty general hire over all for such boats.

5625. I understand you settle with your own men yearly about December?-We commence settling about 12th November, and it takes us a considerable time to get over the whole of our men.

5626. Has each man dealing with you a pass-book?-No, not all, but the greater part of them have.

5627. But you wish them to have pass-books?-Yes; I should be very glad for them all to have passbooks, if they would only keep them regularly. When it is a careful man, his book is kept regularly, and there is very little trouble with him in taking down his account.

5628. I understand each fisherman employed by you has an account in your ledger, in which each year is balanced at the settling time?-Yes.

5629. That account on the one side contains the debt which he has incurred for furnishings to the boat, boat-hire, and the amount of his shop account, if he has one?-Yes; the boat-hires are generally kept under the head of a company account in name of the master of the boat, as for instance, Thomas Robertson & Co.

5630. Then you have two ledger accounts for your men-one for the boat's crew, and one for the account of each individual?-Yes; we very frequently have these accounts entered in the same ledger; but where the men are fishing at one of our stations, such as Papa, the company account is settled in the station ledger, which can always be referred to.

5631. But in that case the individual man has an account in another ledger?-He has his account in our general ledger at Voe.

5632. The boat-hire is generally charged in the company account; that is to say, all the members of the company are liable for the boat-hire?-Yes.

5633. Do a large proportion of the men whom you employ in fishing have shop accounts at your store?-Yes, a large number of them; in fact, the most of them have accounts with us more or less.

5634. That is, apart from the mere outfit which they require for going to the fishing, they are supplied with goods for their families, both soft goods and provisions?-Yes.

5635. Are these transactions generally carried on upon a system of credit?-Yes, it is credit for the most part; but some men who have money just pay down the money for what they want, and it is not entered in our books.

5636. Are you in the habit of giving a discount when they pay down money?-Yes, if the amount is worth discounting.

5637. Can you say what is the average amount of fisherman's share for the take of fish in any one year?-I was making a calculation of it this morning, and I think that, taking all the fishermen we have employed just now, their takes of fish for the whole year would average about £12, 5s.

5638. Are you able to say what deductions would fall to be made from that sum in the case of an ordinary fisherman?-There would be deducted from it specially his proportion of the boat-hire, and the yearly payment or hire for his lines. Some of them pay a yearly payment on their lines, while others hire them. There will be about 22s. deducted for that, and that is the only special charge that has to be deducted, except what he has got for his living.

5639. Are these special charges due by the individual fishermen or by the boat's crew?-For the lines in all my boats they are due by each individual, but the boat hire is due by them as a company.

5640. You spoke of the lines being got by the men either on hire or by making a yearly payment?-Yes, a yearly payment equal to the hire which they would pay if they were hiring the lines. For instance, the pay for the hire of one of these fishing lines is 8d. a year; but instead of taking that as hire, we credit it yearly to the men, and so soon as it has liquidated the value of the lines they become the fisherman's own property; whereas, if a man gets his outfit and goes to the fishing this season, and does not feel inclined to go another year, then he has only paid the hire, and the lines must be returned to me.

5641. But if a man begins to make a yearly payment by way of purchasing the lines, he is obliged to go on?-He is not obliged to go on if he chooses to give up the fishing altogether; but even in that case it is an advantage to them to have the lines, because they can always make use of the old ones in some way or other.

5642. In the case of hired lines and of that sort of purchase by instalments, where does the risk lie?-The risk lies with the fisherman in both cases.

5643. If the hired lines are lost, he pays for them?-Yes.

5644. And if they are lost while he is buying them, he pays for them also?-Of course; but if he is hiring a boat, and it is lost at sea, he is not liable for that boat.

5645. But he would be liable for the lines in that case?-Yes.

5646. I don't quite see the distinction between the two cases of hiring lines and buying them by instalments in the way you have described. Does it not come to be the same thing to the fisherman in the end in both cases?-No; if he continues to hire them, then, when the lines are unfit for prosecuting the fishing any longer, he must return them to me, and I can make something out of these old lines-perhaps 6d. a line; whereas, if he has been buying them by instalments, they belong to the man himself; and if the lines are of good quality, and he has taken care of them, he may be able to use them for a season or two after the whole payments have been made for them. I have some fishermen who have used their lines at the deep-sea fishing in that way for two seasons after the usual yearly payment has completed the value of them.

5647. The deductions you have now mentioned apply to every case, but at settlement there may be other deductions for the amount of furnishings supplied to the men during the season?- Yes.

5648. Is that the only other deduction which falls to be made in the ordinary case?-Yes. If the man has been running an account, of course that must be deducted.

5649. Are you in a position to say what the ordinary amount of a fisherman's account at your shop will be in the course of a season?-Perhaps the ordinary amount will be from £4 to £5. Some of them will be a great deal more than that; whereas there are some men fishing to me who won't have 3s. worth out of my shop in the course of a season.

5650. The amount differs according to the individual?-Yes, and according to his needs.

5651. Is there a large proportion of your fishermen who close the year somewhat in your debt?-Yes, a considerable number, but not nearly so many as there were some years ago.

5652. Has that been in consequence of a succession of good years?-I think so, but there has been a great change in the habits of the people. I think they are generally more careful now than they were.

5653. Are you able to say from your own observation whether men who are so much in your debt deal more at your shop than others?-With some of the men who fish for me, the greatest difficulty I have is to prevent them from dealing,-not to get them to buy goods, but to get them not to buy them. Of course there are black sheep in every flock, and I have men who, after receiving considerable supplies from my shop, and when I have found it quite unreasonable to allow them to go further, turned round upon me and said, 'Well, if you won't give me what I want I will go to [Page 140] some other body and fish for them.' Of course these are exceptions.

5654. They say that to you when they are considerably in your debt?-Yes; and when they think there is no chance of getting any more.

5655. Then it is not an advantage to a fish merchant or to any merchant, as has been alleged, to have a number of people in his debt?-Certainly not. The best fishermen are those who are not in debt. It is a very sad thing to have to settle with a man who has no money coming to him.

5656. Can you get as many fishermen to engage with you as you want, although they should not be in your debt?-Yes; I can get a man to fish for me more readily who is not in my debt than one who is in my debt. A man who is in my debt will, make all the excuses and trouble in the world, but with a man who is not in debt there is no trouble at all. He sees his way clearly, and it is for the purpose of saving something for his family that he goes to the fishing.

5657. Is it a common subject of complaint with your fishermen, that the price of the fish is not settled till the end of the year?- They do speak of that sometimes; and yet, since the question was mooted in consequence of reports being circulated through the country with regard to the investigation, which you are now prosecuting, they are all up in arms for fear any change should be made.

5658. Have they come to you objecting to any change being made?-Yes, a great number of them have done so.

5659. On what grounds?-Because they think that a change could not be made for the better. For instance, if an arrangement was made to pay them for their fish every week, three-fourths of them could not go to the fishing at all, because they have neither boats nor lines, nor could they get the necessary supplies to enable them to go. Then the price which they would receive for the fish would necessarily be smaller. They have had experience of that at the fishing stations where there was competition, this one trying to barter or smuggle a few fish, and the other smuggling a few fish. They get the very highest price for them which is given at that time; but then at settlement, even with some of my men who have sold a few fish, I have had to pay up the difference between the price they received at the station and the current price which was being paid at the end of the season.

5660. That was only in the case where a higher current price was given at the end of the season than was paid for the fish while the season was running on?-Yes.

5661. Have you been often asked to pay a difference of that sort?-I do it voluntarily.

5662. Was that for fish which you did not get at all?-No, not for what I did not get; that I had nothing to do with.

5663. But you did not get smuggled fish?-Yes, there are smuggled fish sold to me. My boats sell smuggled fish to another curer, and boats belonging to another curer sell fish to my factor.

5664. But why should you pay the difference to your own men upon any fish which they have smuggled to other curers?-It is not upon fish they have smuggled that I pay the difference, but there is a system among my fishermen of having what is called a bucht line. That is a line of his own, the fish caught by which are sold by him in order to supply himself with any small article he requires during the fishing. They settle for these fish at the fishing station; and if the price which is given at the settlement is larger than what they have got at the station, I pay them up the difference.

5665. Is that bucht a device for having a little cash in hand?-A bucht is the term which they give to one of these fishing lines.

5666. But is it a device for having some special wants supplied during the course of the season, and before the settlement comes round?-It is just a fancy they have; because if all their fish went one way, and they asked the money, they would get it. It is merely a thing that has been practised among them for many years, and the practice has been allowed to continue.

5667. Is that a practice in your business only, or is it generally done in Shetland?-It is only done by some. There are many of our men who do not do it, but some of them do it.

5668. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash paid in advances to the fishermen in the course of the year and before settlement? Do you pay a large sum in that way at your stations?-I should fancy that over the whole of my fishings £200 would cover the whole amount that is paid in advances during the season.

5669. Your fishings are at Voe, Papa Stour, Stenness, and the Skerries?-Yes.

5670. At each of these places you have a factor and a shop for supplying goods?-Yes; we must have a store.

5671. Are these stores kept open all the year round?-At Papa and the Skerries they are: at Stenness the store is only kept during the summer fishing season.

5672. And the shop there only supplies the fishermen with what they need for their own personal use, and not with what they require for their families?-Just so; but sometimes those men who have their families in the neighbourhood get a little for them also,-a little tea, and such as that.

5673. You say the amount of the shop account will be from £4 or £5 on an average; so that, after making other deductions, that will leave something like £4 or £5 payable in cash to an ordinary man at the end of an ordinary season?-Yes; but there are a great many of them who have a great deal more than that to get.

5674. Of course the amount differs according to the seasons, and according to the individual; but do you think that would be a fair average?-I should say that about £6 might be taken as an average of the amount paid in cash.

5675. Does that apply to all your stations?-Yes, to them all.

5676. What is the number of fishermen upon your books altogether?-I should fancy about 400.

5677. Are these all employed in the summer fishing?-Yes.

5678. Is there any reason why the whole price of a man's fish should not be paid to him in money?-The only reason is that he has already got part of it in goods. Of course we cannot pay for it in goods and in cash also.

5679. But is there any reason why he should take it in goods unless he likes?-None whatever, unless he likes. There is no compulsion put upon any of the men.

5680. Don't you think he would be better off if he got the money, and paid for the goods in cash as he wanted them?-It is quite possible that he might fancy so; but I cannot see that it would make much difference. We always deduct the 5 per cent. from the goods the men have got, the same as if they were purchasing them for cash.

5681. So that you make no difference between cash payments, and paying for them in account in that way?-None in that respect.

5682. Why is it that you give that amount back in the form of a discount, instead of charging your goods originally at the same price?-Of course if a man buys a quarter of a pound of tea, or half a pound of tobacco we cannot take a discount off that; but we put the whole of the transactions together at the end of the season, and a discount is then allowed. If he bought the whole over the counter, he would pay the price down at once; but he has an advantage by these small items being added together, and the discount taken off, which he would not have if he paid for the articles separately.

5683. So that you really give a larger discount upon your credit dealings than, upon your cash dealings?-Yes; the fisherman has a greater advantage by having a discount upon these small purchases when they are all taken together, than he would have if he were paying for them separately. The discount upon two ounces of tobacco or a quarter pound of tea would be a mere bagatelle; but when the whole of his purchases [Page 141] in the course of the year are added together and the 5 per cent. taken off the whole, it comes to something. With our fishermen, as a rule, I consider that these accounts are perfectly good, and the same as if a man were purchasing for cash.

5684. What do you mean by saying that they are perfectly good?- I believe we are safe in making these advances to the men.

5685. That is because you have a security?-We have no security.

5686. Have you not the security of the fish?-Yes, we have that security, if he catches the fish.

5687. Is it upon that principle that you fix the prices at which you sell your shop goods?-Yes, generally. Of course, if we calculated upon it being really a bad account, we would require to charge larger percentage in order to cover the risk; but we would rather get clear of a man of that kind.

5688. Do you mean that, when a man is an unsafe customer, you put a different price on the goods which he buys?-I don't put a different price on them; but I try to give him as little as I can, although there are some of these men whom it is very troublesome to put off without giving them something.,

5689. Is there a competition for employment among the men to be taken on as fishermen for the summer season?-Yes, considerable.

5690. Are there men sufficient to man any number of boats you wish?-Well, I might be too greedy, wish more than I could manage; but I have found no difficulty hitherto in manning as many boats as we could reasonably manage.

5691. You supply your men with groceries as well as soft goods?-Yes; groceries, soft goods, and meal.

5692. In fixing the prices of these goods, both the groceries and soft goods, do you allow it margin for profit, just the same as any merchant would do in Lerwick, or Wick, or any other town?-I should fancy it is much the same. Of course, groceries being an article of daily use, we charge a less percentage on them than we do on soft goods. Very often soft goods lie on our shelves for a considerable time, and get damaged, and become unsaleable.

5693. But I suppose that would be the principle on which the retail price would be fixed if you deal in only one kind of these articles, or if you were selling them in any other place than Shetland?-Of course; that is the principle on which business is conducted anywhere. I think that goods, for instance soft goods, are sold by us in retail fully as low as they are in the shops in the south; even as cheap as they are retailed in Edinburgh. That is easily accounted for; because they have much larger rents to pay in Edinburgh than we have here.

5694. Do you say the same with regard to provisions?-I think there is not much difference on provisions; only the difference for freight and insurance. Of course, at a place like Voe, the transport of bulky goods comes to be very expensive. For instance, at this season of the year, we cannot get a sack of meal from Aberdeen to my house under 5s.

5695. The meal generally is imported about the end the season?- Yes, generally.

5696. Did you hear the evidence that was given today by some of the witnesses about the price of meal?-Yes.

5697. Are you in a position to say whether the price of meal at Voe is higher than at Lerwick, or about the same?-It is higher than at Lerwick as a matter of course, because we have considerable more expense in bringing it here. We have to bring it up to Brae by water, then cart it across the isthmus, and bring it to my house in boats. When the weather is bad, we have to cart it all the way.

5698. Therefore the price of meal with you is considerably higher?-Yes; and of any bulky article which requires a considerable deal of handling and expense of transport.

5699. What do you suppose the difference is between the price of meal at Voe and the price at Lerwick?-I should fancy about 2s. per boll

5700. Will the difference be that throughout the year?-I think so; but sometimes in the spring we manage to get a vessel to bring it in direct; and then we can sell it as cheap as they do at Lerwick.

5701. Have your men ever made any complaint to you about the price being higher than it ought to be?-No.

5702. Is the price stated to them at the time when they get the meal, or is it generally fixed at settling time?-They know the price of every article when they buy it

5703. Do you calculate that the profit upon your provisions and soft goods, or the profit upon your fish sales, is the greater?-I cannot say.

5704. Have you the same percentage of profit upon both?-No; on the fish sales it is only 5 per cent.

5705. Is that just a commission?-Yes.

5706. That is to say, the payment to the men for the fish, the cost of fitting them out when you do so, and of your curing establishments, will come up to within 5 per cent. of what you sell them for to your buyers in the south?-Yes; and then we have to run the risk of the payments. The fish are all sold on three months bill. Our fishermen are all settled with this year, and I have not touched a sixpence for any of our fish yet.

5707. Does the 5 per cent. cover that risk?-Yes. Of course, if we discounted these bills, that would run off with 11/4 per cent. of it, but we just wait until the bills are due.

5708. Then, if you were under the necessity of paying your fishermen entirely in cash, and did not carry on your shop business, would you be obliged to charge a higher profit upon your fish, or to pay the fishermen less for the fish?-If I had no shop at all, and merely traded in fish, I would require to deal more in them than I do, in order to make a living out of it.

5709. But you can afford to take a smaller commission on your fish than you would otherwise do, by reason of the fact that you are carrying on another business at the same time?-Yes.

5710. You are making two profits, although one of them may be a very small one?-The one profit is entirely at the option of the fisherman. He is not obliged to buy the goods unless he chooses.

5711. Perhaps not, but he would likely require to pay that profit to another merchant, or certainly to pay some profit, and you would expect some of that to come to you?-Yes; every one expects some profit. I employ a good many hands about Voe curing fish. These are invariably settled with in cash, if they are able to do without any supplies during the week, but they are always settled with at the end of the week.

5712. Theirs is a weekly payment?-Yes.

5713. But they get supplies during the week?-Sometimes we are obliged to give them something, otherwise they could not work.

5714. And that is deducted from their weekly pay?-Yes. At the stations the curers are generally engaged at a sum for the season.

5715. In what form are the supplies given at your shop deducted from the weekly payments at Voe?-For instance, if the girls working at the fish have earned 5s. a week, and if they have got 2s. worth of goods, they have only 3s. to get.,

5716. But in what way is it noted that they have got that advance in goods?-We keep an account of it in our book.

5717. Is there a ledger account for each worker?-We have what we term a jot ledger for these weekly accounts. We do not carry them into our regular working books.

5718. How many people are employed in that way?-I have known as high as sixty; they will run from thirty to sixty.

5719. Do those people ever ask you for cash in the course of the week?-Sometimes they do but not very often. The length of time between the pays is so very short that they don't require it, but if they are in need of cash they get it.

5720. Do they prefer to take their advances in goods?-They prefer to take their payment at the end of the week.

[Page 142]

5721. But when they require goods in the course the week, do you give them to them?-Yes; goods and cash are much the same thing to them; for if we gave them money, they would just turn round and buy the goods. If they went anywhere else, they must lose a day's work in going to it.

5722. I suppose that is one reason why the system of fish-curers having stores for shop goods exists, because their shops are at such inconvenient distances from each other?-Yes; the people would lose so much time in travelling to other places in order to get their goods, that we require to keep shops for them. If their time is of any value to them at all, the fact that they have a shop on the spot far more than compensates them for any difference they may pay in price.

5723. But if there were no such shops as yours, would there not be a class of dealers throughout the island who would provide the goods that the people want?-I don't know; perhaps there might be such.

5724. Does a fisherman not incline rather to deal with the employer to whom he delivers his fish, than with another?-I think so. The fishermen and their employers are generally on a friendly footing, and the man is satisfied that the curer he is fishing to will do as fairly to him as possible if he is a deserving man. I consider he gets every advantage that he could naturally expect, and it is an object with the fish-curers in every way to encourage steady careful men.

5725. Will you give me a note of the number of men employed by you, of the total amount of cash paid to them, and of the total amount of their shop accounts for 1870, and also for 1867?-Yes. I found, on looking over my books last night, that the total amount of cash paid at the present settlement was £2015. That includes the Faroe fishing too. With regard to the employment of curers at the stations for a specific sum, I may mention that it would not do to pay them weekly, because for several weeks, and perhaps longer, if it is bad weather, these curers will have nothing to do at all. At the home fishing stations they are paid by a fixed sum yearly; and the reason for that is, that if we were to pay them weekly, they would be quite pleased for two or three weeks if they had nothing to do; but if it came a fine week, and there was a great quantity of work, they would throw everything up and go home, and our fishing might be left to perish.

5726. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing to a great extent?-Not to a great extent; but I have five vessels.

5727. In that case, the arrangement with the men is somewhat different?-Yes, quite different; the men get half the fish, and they are paid the current price for the dry fish.

5728. You cure all the fish, and they get half the price of the dried fish?-Yes.

5729. So that the calculation is somewhat similar?-Yes. There is 5 per cent. taken off for selling and risk before the division takes place.

5730. When is the Faroe fishing at an end?-As rule, it is at an end in August.

5731. When are the fish completely cured?-It is sometimes nearly the end of September before they are cured.

5732. Is the division made then?-No; the owner of the vessel sells all the fish, and the division is not made until the settlement.

5733. In the case of a man who engages with you for the Faroe fishing, is it usual for an account to be opened in his name in the same way as with the others?-Yes; we are obliged to supply him with an outfit. The principle of that agreement is, that the men get one-half the value of the fish after deducting curing, and the expenses of converting the fish into cash. They are also allowed 8 lbs. of biscuit per week; the other provisions they have to furnish for themselves.

5734. These supplies are all entered to the man's debit in your book?-Yes.

5735. Is it usual for you to supply his family during his absence with goods on credit in the same way?-Yes; we are very often obliged to do that in order to keep them from starving.

5736. Is that done on a larger scale than in home fishing?-No; I don't think it is done on such a large scale, for the greater number of the hands going to the Faroe fishing are young men without families.

5737. In the Faroe fishing you have not only the 5 per cent. for selling, but you have the profit on one-half of the fish?-That is sometimes a very small profit, for the vessels will sometimes be £100 in debt in the course of a year.

5738. But that depends on the luck of the voyage?-Yes; we have one-half of the fish for the vessel.

5739. You supply the vessel entirely, and the men have nothing to supply except their fishing lines?-Yes; nothing except their fishing lines-2 lines, or 21/2, for hauling the fish with.

5740. Are these lines supplied by you as part of the outfit?-We have to put them on board the vessel, and then any of the men who require them can get them. Sometimes the men have lines of their own, and don't require to take them from us.

5741. I understand you were engaged at one time in the hosiery trade?-Yes.

5742. You used to buy the hosiery in the same way in which it is now bought in Lerwick?-Yes; always paid in goods, I gave that business up in 1870.

5743. Was there any profit made upon that trade?-No; the only profit I ever made by the hosiery was if we had any profit on the goods that we bartered for them. We never could realize the price, as a whole, which I had paid for the hosiery, and consequently we were obliged to give it up. We had very great difficulty in selling it.

5744. Did you sell your hosiery goods south?-I sent them south, and I had really to take anything they would give us for them.

5745. You do something in that way still, do you not?-Yes, occasionally. The principal thing we do is in purchasing goods from other merchants for sending them south when we get an order. Then we purchase what kinds of goods suit us.

5746. Do you buy them in Lerwick?-Yes, and in the country too.

5747. But you don't buy from the knitters yourself?-I don't buy from them. Sometimes they will make us buy them whether we will or not. We cannot get clear of them sometimes, but we don't want to buy them.

5748. Are the knitters anxious to get paid in money for their hosiery?-I don't know. Very likely they have been so long accustomed to getting goods for them, that they never think of asking such a thing as money.

5749. Do you think they would take a less price for hosiery if they were paid in money?-I don't think it.

5750. I suppose they want the goods in the country, and they think they get a profit by taking them?-Yes; for instance, if they have a pair of socks to sell, they won't sell them under 8d., and if you offer them 6d. in cash it is no object for them to take it. They would rather have 8d. worth of goods. In that way they are better off by getting the goods, because if they got 6d. in cash they would just lay it out in buying 6d. worth of goods.

5751. Do you employ beach boys extensively?-Yes, a good many; not at Voe, but at Papa Stour, Stenness, and Skerries.

5752. What is the usual wage for a beach boy?-The usual wage now is from £2 to £3, 10s. for boys.

5753. What is it for women?-Women don't usually work there. If we require to employ women on an emergency, then they are employed at the station at so much per day. There is no regular wage for them.

5754. Do the beach boys get accounts opened in their names at your shop?-We are obliged to do that in order to supply them with food. Sometimes we have to give them shoes and clothing to cover them.

5755. Do they generally get a balance of cash at the [Page 143] end of the year?-Yes; where they are careful, they have a considerable balance to get. Some of them will even have more than half their wages to get in cash.

5756. Are you tacksman of any estate or an owner of land in Shetland?-I am not tacksman of anything but the Skerries Islands. Mr. Bruce of Simbister is the proprietor.

5757. Are there any people living on these islands permanently all the year round?-Yes.

5758. Are they bound to fish for you?-Yes; and they have no wish to change.

5759. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce, and you take the risk of their payments?-Yes.

5760. In that case their rent enters your account as deduction against the men?-Yes. I manage Lady Nicholson's property in Papa, more as a factor for her than as a tacksman.

5761. Are the fishermen there free to fish to anybody they please?-Yes.

5762. But in point of fact they fish to you?-They all fish to me, for the very simple reason that there is no other one there for them to fish to.

5763. Do any of them cure their own fish, or try to do it?-There is only one native crew who cure their own fish at Papa.

5764. They prefer to do so, and you make no objection?-None whatever; and when their fish are cured, they just deliver them to my man there, and we buy them cured at the current price for cured fish.

5765. Do you think these men make as much of their fish as the other men do?-They do; but they have a great deal of labour with it. When the season is bad, it requires a great deal of attention from the whole of these men to attend to a few fish, and to get them dried, and perhaps it will be well on in September before they get over with it. They also run a risk their fish being spoiled.

5766. I suppose some fish are necessarily damaged in the course of curing?-Yes; it is a very important thing to be particular about that. They get damaged with rain, and they get damaged with sand and with the sea-breeze, and they require a great deal of attention.

5767. Is the rent which you pay for Skerries calculated so as to allow you a profit upon the rents of the sub-tenants?-No; I pay £110 of tack duty, and the gross rental from the tenants is only £68, I virtually pay the difference just for the station-that is, station rent for the store and premises which are put up there.

5768. Is it not also for the privilege of having these fishermen to fish for you?-I believe I could make more of these lands if I had them as grazing ground, without any fishermen there at all. There is only one of the Skerries I hold now; one of them has been sold to the Lighthouse Commissioners.

5769. If you could make more of the island as grazing ground, why don't you turn it into that?-If I were to do so, what could I make of the men? There are fourteen families, and if I turned them adrift it would be a fearful thing.

5770. Is it difficult for men to get land in Shetland?-It is very difficult now; there are so many requiring it, that almost every place is taken up. I have boats that go from the mainland to fish at the Skerries with the natives.

5771. Then it is useful as a station for them?-Yes.

5772. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the system of carrying on business, or with reference to the evidence that has been laid before the Commission previously?-Not so far as I am aware.

Brae, January 10, 1872, CHARLES YOUNG, examined

5773. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.

5774. How long have you been there?-For twenty years.

5775. Do you hold land there?-No.

5776. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. John Anderson, Hillswick.

5777. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.

5778. How far is Stenness from Hillswick?-About three miles. I do not live at Stenness. I live in the south part of North Mavine, at Manaster, about twelve miles from Stenness.

5779. Do you go to Stenness merely for the fishing?-Yes.

5780. Has Mr. Anderson a station there?-Yes; only in summer and harvest.

5781. Has Mr. Adie also a station at Stenness?-Yes.

5782. How long have you fished for Mr. Anderson?-I have fished for about seventeen years for Anderson Brothers. I fished for two years at Ollaberry, and I fished for the time I have mentioned for Anderson & Co.

5783. How are you paid for your fish? Do you get most of your payment in goods or in cash at settling time?-I have got most in cash.

5784. What is the time for settling?-The settling time commences about 12th November, but for some years we have generally settled from 26th to 27th November.

5785. Do you generally get your supplies during the fishing season from Mr Anderson at Stenness?-Yes.

5786. Where is your family supplied? -I do not require much supplies for my family, I can buy them at any shop in the neighbourhood.

5787. Is there any shop at Manaster from which your family are supplied?-No. The most part of my dealing has been with Mr. Anderson, but I sometimes deal with Mr. Inkster at Brae, or any shop I may have occasion to go to.

5788. Are your family generally supplied by Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-No; not as a general rule.

5789. Do you run an account with Mr. Anderson?-Yes.

5790. The two sides are balanced at the end of the year in November, and you generally get a good part of your payment in cash?-Yes.

5791. Do you get advances in money during the fishing season?- Not unless I require them; but if require them, I can get them.

5792. Do you ask for them as a favour?-No.

5793. Do you want the money for some particular purpose when you ask for it?-Yes.

5794. Do you always get it when you ask it?-Yes. I asked for £5 this year, about the beginning of the fishing, and I got it without any difficulty.

5795. Do you also get any reasonable quantity of goods you want?-Yes.

5796. Are the goods supplied to you at Stenness or at Hillswick?- To a certain extent at Stenness, and for the greater part at Hillswick.

5797. Do you go there for them?-Yes.

5798. Do you get both meal and clothing there?-Yes; I generally get them there in the summer season for the fishing.

5799. Is the meal there of good quality and reasonable price?- Yes; it is about the same as in other parts of the country.

5800. Would you have any advantage if you were going to another dealer for your meal and clothing?-I don't think I could have any.

5801. You think you get your goods as good and as cheap as you could desire?-Yes; they are as good and as cheap, there as at any other part of the island.

5802. Or at Stenness?-Yes; it is not much clothing they have at that place. It is only a temporary place, where they keep supplies for the men during the fishing season.

5803. Then the way in which you deal is very much the same as has been described by the witnesses from [Page 144] Mossbank?-Yes; I cannot say there is much difference.

5804. You are not obliged to fish for any person in particular?- No.

5805. You are a free man?-Yes.

5806. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the year?-Yes.

5807. Would you rather be paid all at once in cash?-Yes.

5808. Why don't you manage to get that done?-I can hardly say; circumstances won't allow it. Sometimes the reason for it arises from the way in which we are placed as a crew of men. The curers will sometimes object to give it to one man in a boat's crew, unless all the men were alike.

5809. And all the men would not wish it in cash?-There are not many who would not wish for it in cash.

5810. Why could not the whole of the boat's crew get it in cash?- Because some of the men have got behind, and they cannot manage to go on throughout the rest of the season unless they get supplies from the curer.

5811. They are in the curer's debt at the commencement?-Yes, or perhaps they might be free men; but they have no opportunity of supplying themselves with anything until the end of the fishing.

5812. Therefore, when there are one or two men in boat's crew who are in that position, the curer objects to give cash payments to the others?-I cannot say that, because I have not seen it asked by the rest; but we have been conforming to the old practice that has been going on of fishing to the curers, and being paid by them at the end of the season.

5813. Do you want any change in the system?-The only change I would want in the system would be to know what I was working for. I should like to see a change in that respect.

5814. Would you like to have a price fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes; before I commenced to fish, because according to the system we are proceeding on now we might go to the fishing, and at the end of the fishing season or at the end of the year when they settle with us, the merchants could pay us if they liked with 2s. a cwt.

5815. Do they not come under an obligation to pay you what is the current price at the end of the season?-It is not very often that we enter into engagements of any kind. The men who are free men generally fish for them, and they just fish upon an understanding that they are to be paid the country currency.

5816. But it is understood that they are to be paid the country currency?-Yes.

5817. And you would be entitled to get the country currency in any case?-Yes; but if the fish were going down as low as they might do, we would still only get the currency.

5818. Do you mean that the fish are sometimes higher earlier in the season than they are at the end?-No; what I mean is that the price varies very much. I have seen the price 4s. 6d. a cwt. in some years, and 8s. in other years; and if the price were to go below 4s. 6d., we would still only be paid according to that. But if we had a fixed price before we went to sea at all, I think that would be better. If there had been an average price fixed at the commencement of the season while I have been fishing, I would have been better satisfied in my own mind, because I would have known what I was working for. In that way the curer would have the advantage in some years, and in other years we might have the advantage.

5819. Do you think there would be any difficulty in getting the fishermen to stick to their bargain, if there was an arrangement of that kind made at the beginning of the season?-I fear there might be some difficulty with some of them.

5820. Some of them might think that if the price were to rise, they ought to get the full value of that rise?-I don't think any reasonable man could expect that, if he had made a fixed bargain to be paid so much.

5821. But you say that some of the men would make a difficulty about an arrangement of that kind; what do you mean by that?- The only difficulty I see would be a want of means to supply what they require in order to fit them for the fishing; but I think the difficulty might be got over.

5822. Do you mean that the men would get under weigh even if there was a fixed price?-I think so.

5823. When would you have that fixed price paid?-For my own part I would not care although we were not paid until the same time when we are paid at present. If it were paid weekly, I don't know how that system might work.

5824. Do you think that all the fishermen would like to have a price fixed in the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that the whole would like to have it, but for my own part I should like it and I know there are others besides me.

5825. Do you think there would be no difficulty in getting credit from the fish-curer in the same way as at present, if there was a fixed price?-No; the time for fixing the price might be the only thing that would be altered, and the settlement would still remain in November. We would then have a fixed price, and would know what we were working for.

5826. You have no objection to the system of advances?-I cannot say that I have.

5827. Are you quite at liberty to engage with any fish-curer you please, and to engage to fish for him through the season?-Yes.

5828. Has every fisherman the same liberty?-Every one, so far as I know, in this place.

5829. Even although he is in debt to the fish-curer?-No; in that case the fish-curer expects him to fish for him until his debt is paid. That is generally looked for, and in some instances I know that they had to agree to do it.

5830. Do you know that they wished to fish for another curer, but that they were obliged to fish to the man to whom they were in debt?-They did not wish to fish to another curer, but that fish-curer wished them to sign an agreement to fish to him for the rising season.

5831. Did they agree to do that?-Yes. They did not say anything about leaving the fish-curer, but only he wished them to agree.

5832. At what time of the year was that?-I have seen it done in the month of November, and also in December.

5833. Did the fish-curer ask them to do that at a time when they were wanting further advances of goods or money?-Yes, advances of money.

5834. And it was in order that he might have some security for these advances that he asked them to sign the agreement?-Yes.

5835. Is that a common thing?-I cannot say it is a common thing in my experience, but I have known it done in two or three different cases.

5836. Where was that?-At Hillswick.

5837. Have you known it done anywhere else?-No.

5838. Who were the men with whom it was done?-One man who told me twice over about it was Hugh Phillip; it happened with him in two different years.

5839. Has it happened with anybody else to your knowledge?- No.

5840. Was it not quite fair that a man should be expected to work for the curer until his debt was paid?-Yes.

5841. How does a man get into such an amount of debt as that? Is it from dealing with the shop?-I cannot say that the shop accounts are the cause of it, but it may arise from the circumstances of his family. The fishing here is the only thing a man has to depend upon, and sometimes, when it turns out bad year, he perhaps has taken a greater amount of supply from the shop for his family than usual.

5842. Was Phillip's account for shop goods?-It was for an advance of rent.

5843. That was what he was taking the money for but was he in debt before for shop goods?-Yes.

[Page 145]

Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM GREEN, examined.

5844. You live at Sullem?-Yes.

5845. Are you a boat-skipper?-Yes.

5846. Where do you fish?-At Stenness.

5847. To whom do you deliver your fish?-To Mr. Adie.

5848. Have you done that long?-For six years.

5849. Do you settle with him at the end of the season?-Yes.

5850. Did you hear Mr Adie's evidence to-day?-I did.

5851. Did it give a fair account of the way in which the settlement is made?-Yes.

5852. Are you one of the men who generally have a balance in your favour at the end of the year?-Yes.

5853. Would it be an advantage to you to have a shorter settlement?-I don't think so.

5854. Why?-Because we fish during the year and at the year's end we settle with him.

5855. Are you quite content with the settlement as it is?-For my part I am.

5856. Do you deal with Mr. Adie's store at Voe to any great extent?-Yes.

5857. Do you take your goods from Voe to Sullem?-Yes.

5858. Is not that a long way to carry them?-It is.

5859. Could you not get them as good nearer home?-We could get them much the same but not better. If I want goods, Mr. Adie will either send them to me, or I may sometimes get the chance of a boat coming my way.

5860. How far is it from Sullem to Voe?-Perhaps from eight to nine miles.

5861. Are there shops nearer to you than that?-Yes; there is a shop at Brae, and there is also a shop to the northward.

5862. Can you get goods as cheap at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-Much the same.

5863. Do you deal as much at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-No; I deal more with Mr. Adie than with them.

5864. Is that because you have an account with Mr. Adie?-Yes.

5865. Do you know whether there is any difference between the prices in the shop at Voe and at other places?-I see no great difference. I have tried other places; and if there was any difference at all, it would be that I could get an article at Mr. Adie's perhaps a little cheaper than at other places.

5866. Then the only disadvantage you have in dealing at Voe is the distance?-Yes.

5867. And the only advantage you have is that you have an open account there?-Yes.

5868. Is that the only reason why you deal there-The boat we fish in belongs to Mr. Adie; we hire it from him.

5869. Is that any reason for dealing at Voe?-No but we fish to Mr. Adie, and we get goods from him as we require them, and at the year's end we make a settlement.

5870. There is a convenience in making a settlement at the end of the time, because you have not to pay for the goods in the meantime?-Yes.

5871. But if you got your cash every month or every six weeks, as you wanted it, would that not save you the trouble of going to Voe for your goods?-It might.

5872. Would you not consider that a great advantage?-No, not a great advantage.

5873. Do you think it is handier to make a settlement once a year and go to Voe for your goods?-Yes.

5874. Are you obliged in any way to go there unless you please to do so?-No, we are not obliged.

5875. How much do you generally get in cash at the year's end?- That varies according to the fishing. I have seen us get £8 or £9 after deducting our accounts.

5876. Do you require that money to pay your rent and other things that you want to buy?-Yes.

Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM POLE, examined.

5877. You are managing partner at Mossbank of the firm of Pole, Hoseason & Co, merchants and fish-curers?-Yes.

5878. You have other places in Shetland?-Yes. We have one in North Yell, at Greenbank; we have also two fishing stations-one at Feideland, and the other at Gloup. Feideland is at the extreme end of Northmavine, and Gloup is at the farthest north part of Yell.

5879. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Adie?-Yes.

5880. Is the way in which you carry on your business at Mossbank substantially the same?-Yes, substantially the same. One difference is that we don't give discount on the fishermen's accounts in the way Mr. Adie seems to do.

5881. Is there any other difference that occurs to you?-The fishermen pay for their lines in some cases by three yearly instalments, and in the event of fisherman leaving us we are not bound to take back the lines from him, as Mr. Adie said. But that is quite a trifling difference.

5882. What proportion of dried fish do you estimate to be produced from the green fish, in settling with your men?-It takes 21/4 cwt. of green fish to make 1 cwt. of dry in the case of ling; and in the case of tusk it takes more.

5883. Is that a universal calculation in Shetland?-In some years it is a little less, and in some years a little more.

5884. Is that not a fixed standard? Is there a fresh calculation made every year as to the quantity of dried fish produced out of so much green?-There can be if it is wished.

5885. Do you not always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. of dry?-No; we can make a calculation in order to get at the quantity of green fish which it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry.

5886. On what principle do you act in settling with the fishermen?-In settling with them we pay them the current price paid in the country.

5887. But you calculate that current price on a certain principle with regard to the quantity of dry fish produced out of green?- Yes.

5888. In settling with them, do you always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green make 1 cwt. of dry, or does that enter into the settlement with the fishermen at all?-Of course that enters into the calculation; but then we can know exactly what quantity of green fish it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry. It is generally about 21/4 cwt. It may be a few pounds less some years, but it is very seldom more than 21/4 cwt. We always reckon upon it taking 21/4 cwt. green of ling to make 1 cwt. of dry; but then the price which we pay to the fishermen depends altogether upon the price which we get from the fish dry, and we pay them the current price paid in the country.

5889. How is that current price ascertained? Is it by the sales of each fish-curer, or by the sales of all the firms in Shetland?- Fish-curers have generally to pay the same price, whether they get the same price or not; but there is not often any great difference between the price got by one curer and that got by another. For instance, we reckon, one 21/4 cwt. green fish to 1 cwt. dry: that, at 8s. a cwt., comes to 18s., and we pay the fishermen for the cwt. of dry fish. Then the actual cost of curing is reckoned at about 2s. 6d. per cwt. dry. That does not include waste of curing utensils and management; so that the actual cost of curing the fish would be nearly £3 a ton, or 3s. a cwt.

5890. You may sell these fish for about 23s.?-Yes; but there is more to be taken into the calculation than that. We get £6 from each boat for the hire of the boat and the lines; but that sum cannot cover the cost to us, and therefore we have a loss upon the boat and lines, which has to come off the fish also.

5891. Is that loss universal?-I think it is, because there is no more paid for the boats now than was paid twenty years ago, when a boat wore half as long again [Page 146] as it does now, and when lines that run for two or three seasons would run for five or six seasons.

5892. Is that difference caused by deterioration in the quality of the articles?-No; it is caused by the boats going further out to the fishing. They require larger boats and larger sails, and then the lines are getting more used and more worn.

5893. I was asking you how the current price is ascertained at the end of the year?-It is just ascertained in the same way as the current price of any other commodity in any other place would be ascertained.

5894. Do you correspond with other fish-curers in order to find out the price?-Yes.

5895. Is there any meeting of fish-curers held at Lerwick or elsewhere for the purpose of fixing the price?-Not that I am aware of; not in the case of the haaf fishing.

5896. Is there any in the case of the Faroe fishing?-I am not sure about that; but I never attended one.

5897. Have you been asked to attend one?-No.

5898. Is there any rule with regard to the fixing of price current in the Faroe fishing? Do not the fishermen there get one-half the proceeds of the fishing, whatever the price may be, without reference to a price current?-It is always expected that the crew of one vessel will get the same as the crew of another.

5899. Do you mean the same as the crew of another employed by the same merchant?-No; by different merchants. That is always expected, and there is seldom any difference, although it does happen occasionally.

5900. Therefore you have heard of a meeting for the purpose of fixing a price current for the Faroe fishing?-I heard of such a thing taking place once, but not oftener; and I think it was only attended by three or four individuals. I think that was a year or two ago, but I am not certain about the time. Indeed, I am not certain about the thing; it only occurs to me that I heard about it.

5901. But the current price for the ordinary ling fishing can be easily enough ascertained, because you meet one another, and in your correspondence you may mention it incidentally?-Yes.

5902. Does it sometimes happen that the fishermen to one firm complain that they have not got so large price as their neighbours?-That has happened in my experience once or twice.

5903. Does that account in any degree for the desire which some fishermen seem to have for a price to be fixed before the season begins?-I don't think so.

5904. Do you think fishermen would be better off if a price were so fixed?-I do not.

5905. Why?-Because I think, under the present system, they are getting the very utmost the fish are worth to any merchant.

5906. But would it not be better for the fishermen? Would they not work as well, or better, if they knew the price they were to get?-I am not very sure about that; I cannot see in what respect they could possibly be better than they are.

5907. In your curing establishment do you employ beach boys at a fixed rate per annum?-Yes.

5908. Do they open an account in your shop-books in the same way as a fisherman who is engaged to fish to you for the season?- Yes, in much the same way. We engage them about this time of the year, and they require a few trifles about this time. Then, before they commence work on the beach, they require some clothing-perhaps some oilskins and boots or shoes. Then they require meal to keep them going through the season, and they are settled with at the end.

5909. What is the amount of the balance generally paid to a beach boy at settlement time in cash?-From 10s. to 30s.

5910. Out of wages amounting to from £2 to £3, 10s.?-Yes; we very seldom pay a boy more than £3.

5911. Have you any difficulty in getting beach boys?-We do find a considerable difficulty sometimes.

5912. Is the supply not equal to the demand?-Not in our case. For the past year for instance, it has not.

5913. How does that happen? Are their wages too low, or have they any other employment nowadays?-Nowadays the boys are being employed at the fishing sooner than they used to be.

5914. Are there many people employed in your curing establishment as day workers?-Yes; they are chiefly women, but there are a few boys and a few old people.

5915. How are they paid?-By the day.

5916. When are they paid?-Whenever they wish

5917. Is there a weekly pay-day with them?-There may be, if they wish; but sometimes, for their convenience, we do not settle weekly. The settlement may run for three, four, five, or six weeks, or perhaps whole season.

5918. How many days will these women be employed in the course of the season? Is it anything like constant employment?- Yes; at least during the summer. From the end of May till the end of September we will employ on an average about twenty women daily at Mossbank, and about ten at Greenbank.

5919. Do these women run an account at your shop for goods?- Yes.

5920. Is a considerable amount of their wages paid to them in goods?-Yes, a considerable part.

5921. Is there any understanding or rule that they shall take part of their wages in goods?-There is no such understanding.

5922. They are quite at liberty with regard to that-Yes.

5923. Will they get cash if they ask for it?-Yes, if they have it to get; but it is a convenience for them to get their goods from our shop. It saves them the trouble of going a greater distance for them.

5924. Is there no other shop there?-Not close by. The nearest shop is about a mile off, I think.

5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No, there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.

5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.

5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.

5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with you?-Yes.

5929. Have they generally pass-books, or do they prefer to do without them?-They can get a passbook if they like, but they seldom do it.

5930. Are you a landed proprietor?-I am to small extent.

5931. Are any members of your firm owners of land?-No; not owners.

5932. Or tacksmen?-I am a tacksman of some; and we, as a firm, are factors for one or two small properties.

5933. Are any other members of the firm tacksmen or proprietors of land?-Not tacksmen.

5934. Or proprietors?-No. Mr. Hoseason, I think, is proprietor of one-fifth part of a rental of £3.

5935. On the land which you hold as owner or tacksman, are there many of the tenants who are fishermen and are employed by your firm?-Yes, there are a great many fishermen.

5936. Are they under any obligation to fish for you, and not for another?-Yes; we expect them fish for us in preference.

5937. That is part of the contract which they enter into for their ground?-Yes; but it is also understood that we are to give them the current price of the country.

5938. What are the properties of which you are tacksman?- Aywick, in East Yell.

5939. What is the number of fishermen on that property?-There are only four or five of them who fish to us. There are a good many others, but they do not [Page 147] fish to us. Some of these men go to the whale fishing, and we are not interested in it.

5940. They are not bound to fish for you if they go to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing?-No; not unless we require them. If we require them, they will give us the preference willingly.

5941. Is it part of the arrangement or understanding, that you are entitled to prevent them from going to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing if you please?-No; they are at perfect liberty to go to the whale fishing if they prefer it.

5942. But if they engage in the home fishing they are bound to fish to you?-Yes, if we wish it.

5943. What other properties are held in tack by you?-Sandwick, in North Yell.

5944. How many men are upon it?-There are seven or eight families, the heads of which are all fishermen, and they fish to us. There is another small property called Sellafirth, in North Yell, on which I think there are four or five men. We are also factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell.

5945. Are the men there bound to fish to you?-They all fish to us. They are not bound to do so; only, it is understood that they are to fish to us.

5946. How many of them may there be?-I think six or seven. These are all the properties of which we are tacksmen.

5947. Of what properties are you proprietor?-I am proprietor of small place in Delting, at Mossbank.

5948. Are there many fishermen on it?-No; only three or four.

5949. Are they also expected to fish for you?-No; there is only one of them, I think, who fishes for us.

5950. Are those fishermen in North Yell who fish for you, and who live on the land you have mentioned, in the habit of dealing at your shop at Gloup?-Yes; to a small extent.

5951. Are your books kept there?-No; Greenbank is the principal place where they are kept. Gloup is fishing station in connection with Greenbank.

5952. The shop accounts at Greenbank are balanced in the same way against the price of the fish?-Yes.

5953. Perhaps you will make up a similar statement to that which Mr. Adie has promised with regard to the amount of the shop accounts and the indebtedness of the men?-Yes. The systems pursued at Mossbank and Greenbank are a little different. At Greenbank we hire both boat and lines to the men; while at Mossbank the men almost all buy their lines, and hire the boat only.

5954. How many accounts do you keep at both places?-I think about 120 or 130 altogether, for the ling fishing.

5955. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, to a small extent.

5956. Your dealing with regard to it is similar to what Mr. Adie has described?-Yes, quite the same.

5957. The men who go to that fishing deal at your shop in the same way as those who go to the home fishing?-Yes.

5958. Do they generally incur as large a shop account as the men who engage in the home fishing?-Not generally.

5959. Is that because they are young men?-Yes.

5960. But those who have families are in pretty much the same condition as the home fishers?-Yes; there is not any material difference as to the amount of their shop accounts.

5961. Is there anything you would like to add to what Mr. Adie has said?-No; I think everything I have to say has been stated already.

5962. You are not engaged in the hosiery business?-Only to a very small extent; we do not turn over £100 of hosiery in a year. There is one thing I should like to say about the difference in the price of our meal and the price of meal at Lerwick. I have heard it said that we average 8s. or 10s. higher than the price there. I may explain, in the first place, that there was a mistake with regard to the actual amount of difference; but at that very time the witness spoke of there was a considerable difference caused by a sudden rise in the price of meal in the market. At that time the meal rose several shillings on the sack. Parties who had their meal in before the rise could sell it without any increase of the price, if they thought fit; but we happened to bring in meal the very week the rise came on, so that we had to sell it at an advanced price.

5963. What was it?-I don't recollect exactly, but recollect that it was pretty considerable. The usual difference between the price of our meal and the price of meal in Lerwick is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per boll

5964. Was the difference as much as 5s.?-No, it was not so much as that; but, from the cause I have mentioned, it may have been considerable. I made an arrangement with a party in Lerwick this year to send us weekly a price current of the meal in Lerwick, because sometimes our people do complain that they are charged more than they could get it for at Lerwick, and I wish to know how we really act in that way. I should be glad to send that price current for your inspection.

5965. Do you wish the prices in it to be compared with the prices at your own shop?-Yes.

5966. How are the prices at your shop to be ascertained?-Our books can show them.

5967. Are all the sales of meal entered in your books at the time they take place?-Not all; but when meal is given on credit, the price is entered in the ledger account opposite the name of the party.

5968. You have not got your books here?-No. I was not cited to attend to-day; but I wished to be examined, and I came forward.

5969. In what way do you arrange your ledger? Have you an account in it for each boat's crew?-Yes.

5970. Is there also a ledger account for each individual?-Yes.

5971. In that ledger account do you enter on the one side all his outfit and all the goods supplied to his family or to himself out of your shop, while on the other side are entered the proceeds of his fishing, and everything else that may be due to him?-Yes.

5972. In the case of the properties of which you are tacksman or proprietor, the rent, I presume, goes into the debit side of the man's account?-Yes.

5973. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

Brae, January 10, 1872, Rev. DUNCAN MILLER, examined.

5974. You are a clergyman of the United Presbyterian Church at Mossbank?-I am.

5975. You have been there for a number of years?-Yes; this is my fourteenth year.

5976. You are well acquainted with many of the fishermen and with their families?-Yes.

5977. You are aware of the system which exists, of the payments for the fishermen's catch being settled at long intervals, and of accounts being run for shop goods with the merchants who buy their fish?-Yes. I think it is necessary to make a distinction with regard to the long accounts, because what I suppose is called the winter fishing is paid for immediately on the fish being landed.

5978. These are the small fish taken in the winter time?-Yes.

5979. But for the summer fishing there are these long settlements I refer to?-Yes.

5980. Have you formed any opinion as to the effects of that system upon the habits and character of the people?-I have.

5981. What conclusion have you arrived at on that matter?-I have arrived at the conclusion that these effects are very injurious. I think the men are brought to depend too much upon the shop and too much upon [Page 148] the merchant, and that in consequence they rely too little upon themselves. One result of the system therefore is, that there is a want of prudence amongst the men generally. I think the pass-book system affords a fatal facility for men getting into debt, and that many rush into it in that way who think very little of the debt they incur. Besides, I think the present system fosters, and has a natural tendency to produce a deceitful character in the people. For example, they are bound by their agreement to deliver their fish to the factor of the merchant for whom they fish, and the result is pretty much as has been stated in the examinations to-day, that a good many smuggle away their fish. They think the men who purchase them-I believe they are called yaggers-give them, a higher price, in many cases, than they would get from their employers, and therefore they dispose of fish which really belong to the proprietor of their boats; and all that is done in an underhand way.

5982. Have you any knowledge about these yaggers or factors who come about the country purchasing fish?-I have no knowledge of them except from the fishermen's own statements.

5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the men belonging to other boats and other proprietors.

5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by purchasing from other boats.

5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes.

5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make purchases.

5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of individual cases that have come under my notice.

5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them do.

5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can hope to pay in one year.

5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in debt.

5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a boat were realizing upwards of £2 in a night. At that time a great many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about £20, or from £20 to £30, involved, and I presume they have not been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years.

5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they never think of making any provision for the future. They know when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they were accused of running too far into debt.

5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop.

5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the shopkeeper?-They are under his control.

5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes their energies.

5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a man being in debt paralyzes his energies.

5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do, or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready money?-The way in which I would understand the system operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large family, cannot afford to do that.

5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?- There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have spoken of.

5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they otherwise would do?-I think so.

6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit. Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year, and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once. That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods cheaper.

6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these merchants are higher than they are at others where that system does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal experience as to the difference in that respect.

6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general.

6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above any difference in price. There are many articles I require which are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get such articles as are suitable for me.

6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with. In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article.

6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in everything else.

6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress. Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery goods because they would get money from her for them. They often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour to get her to buy them.

6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood.

<Adjourned>

Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM BLANCE, examined.

6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am.

6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.

6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick.

6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for him in the summer season for the last six years.

6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry.

6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south. It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing.

6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question.

6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement.

6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe fishing. During that time I have had my freedom

6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing.

6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily ability was one.

6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose.

6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They are supposed to fish for their landlord.

6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is, from hearsay.

6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give them to him.

6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes.

6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered you a good wage?-[No answer.]

6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty until I inquired at my land-master.

6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too: have they told you that that is the obligation under which they lie?-They might have told me, but I forget.

6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is the understanding that they must fish to the master.

6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th January.

6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes.