NOTES 1. (continued 31)

12,300. You say in your statement that you are trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles: are they the Misses Scott of Scalloway?-Yes. Mrs. Spence and Miss Scott.

12,301. Are you aware that some complaints were made by the inhabitants of the Burra Isles, a few years ago, to the agent for the proprietors in Edinburgh?-Yes, there was a letter sent to him.

12,302. In consequence of these complaints, did you make an investigation and report?-Yes; I went to the island to inquire into the matter. The prayer of the petition was, that the proprietors should be more careful, when another lease was given, not to allow certain things which the tenants complained of to be inserted in it.

12,303. At that time was a new lease in contemplation?-No; there were two or three years to run of the old lease.

12,304. Was the lease of Burra, under which the islands were then held by Messrs. Hay, granted during your management?-No; it had been granted some years before.

12,305. A copy of the letter to Mr. Mack which occasioned the inquiry, was sent to you at the time?-Yes.

12,306. The first complaint in that letter was, 'That every householder is bound to pay £1 sterling annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing smack, not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea Co.; otherwise he must remove from the island, or expel any such son from his home.' I have not seen the lease in question, but did you find that that was a well-founded complaint?-There was nothing of the kind stated in the lease. My understanding of the complaint is, that when the lease was taken by Messrs. Hay, they entered into an arrangement with the tenants with regard to the terms on which they were to occupy under them.

12,307. Did you ascertain whether any such stipulation had been entered into between Messrs. Hay and the tenants?-I investigated the matter upon the spot, but I could not find any case where the money had been paid.

12,308. In what year did you make the investigation?-In 1869.

12,309. Did you find any case in which the money had been demanded?-I did not find any; but I understand that Messrs. Hay had sent round or had handed to each of the tenants the terms of the engagement under which they were to occupy, and that there was something about it in that. I did not see it myself; but I understood they were either to fish to Messrs. Hay, or to have liberty to fish elsewhere if they chose on payment of £1. That was the rule that had been laid down by Messrs. Hay; but I could not trace any case in which the money had been paid.

12,310. Have you any objection to state the name of the party who wrote the letter to Mr. Mack which you now hold in your hand?-I believe it was a private communication, and I would rather not mention the name. The writer says, 'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential communication may receive your kind consideration.' I don't know that it is of much importance who wrote the letter; but I may mention that he was a minister who was in the habit of visiting the island, and to whom some of the people had made complaints. It became very clear to me, from my investigation, that the case had been very much overstated. I got particulars of the prices paid to the men for several years, and I made inquiry at other places in the neighbourhood about the prices, and I could not find that they had any cause of complaint about the prices paid to them for their fish.

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12,311. Did you find the statement to be correct which is contained in the third head of the letter: 'The price given is never less than 1s. per cwt. below the average paid for green fish in the islands; and in the case of herring, not less than 5s. per cran below the market price is a common thing'?-There was no foundation for that statement whatever. I found the Burra people were getting fully as much as any other fishermen.

12,312. Did you ascertain that from an examination of the books of Messrs. Hay & Co, or from statements made by the people themselves?-I ascertained the prices paid to the men from Messrs. Hay & Co.'s books, and on comparing it with the prices paid in other localities, I found that that was an unfounded statement altogether.

12,313. Did you find that the fourth complaint, about oysters being underpaid, was correct?-I found that in that very season the men were selling their oysters where they liked. There was no restriction at all at that time. There had been before. I believe Messrs. Hay had endeavoured to prevent anybody from coming in and dredging upon the oyster beds that lay between the islands, and to get the people to deliver the oysters to them; but they had given up that before that time and allowed them to sell them where they chose.

12,314. I suppose the result of there being no restriction is that the oyster beds are nearly exhausted?-They are almost entirely exhausted. In the course of two seasons they were all taken up.

12,315. Did you ascertain whether a regular system of deception had been practised in order to evade the obligation to deliver to Messrs. Hay, while the restriction existed about the oysters?-I did not find that there was a regular system of deception, because, at the time when I made my inquiry, any oysters which the men dredged were sold where they pleased. Messrs. Hay found out, that unless they had an Act of Parliament, they did not have the power of hindering the men from selling where they chose. That oyster bed had been held by the proprietor almost exclusively as his own property, and for generations it was dealt with as such. Messrs. Hay & Co. came into the proprietor's place and I daresay they very naturally supposed that they had the same right; but on the men insisting on selling where they chose, they found they could not prevent them.

12,316. Did you find that at the time when it was supposed Messrs. Hay had that power, a system of deception had prevailed, as is alleged in this letter, in order to evade the supposed obligation?- That is one way of putting it; but I should suppose that before the matter was determined as to the right of the people to sell oysters where they chose, they had been in the habit of quietly going to other parties with the oysters, that Messrs. Hay should not know.

12,317. Then I suppose that, so far as it went, that complaint was not very far from the truth?-It was perfectly untrue. The statement made in the complaint was that Messrs. Hay only gave 1s. per 100, and that that was paid in goods, while the men could get 2s. 6d. elsewhere. I found that to be utterly untrue.

12,318. Was it the case that Messrs. Hay paid a larger price than was stated, or that the higher price could not be obtained elsewhere?-Oysters had been selling years before as low as 1s. per 100; but Messrs. Hay were paying the same price as other people at that time. I think 2s. 6d. was the price in 1869.

12,319. Were Messrs. Hay paying that price then?-They were paying the same as Mr. Harcus who is still a buyer.

12,320. Was he the only other buyer?-No. I believe Mr. Nicholson and Mr. Tait also purchased about that time.

12,321. But the previous time, when the oysters were selling for 1s. per 100, was before the date of your inquiry?-Yes, it must have been some time before.

12,322. Could a larger price have been got elsewhere than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I don't know. I know that oysters were not so dear at that time as they became afterwards; but at the time when Messrs. Hay & Co. were the only parties buying oysters, they got very few. They were not fished to any great extent.

12,323. Did you find that the fifth complaint, that every person on the island selling any article to a neighbour was liable to expulsion, had any foundation?-It had a foundation to this extent, that Messrs. Hay did not allow anybody to set up a shop in the island; but it was nonsense to say that people were not allowed to sell any article to a neighbour, such as fish or any of their produce.

12,324. A resident clergyman or schoolmaster might have got fish for his table if he wanted them?-Yes, or any article of produce that the people had. The complaint was only true so far that the people were not allowed to set up retail shops in the island.

12,325. Was there any prohibition on selling tea?-That is what I refer to.

12,326. Even if they had no shop, was not one neighbour prevented from selling a 1/2 lb. or 1/4 lb. of tea to another?-I am not aware that Messrs. Hay ever looked into the matter so closely as that.

12,327. But was not that the substance of their complaint?-Of course, if anybody had set up a tea-shop, that would have been objected to. But this complaint refers to the practice of getting tea and other goods from merchants in exchange for hosiery; and it goes on to say, that if a woman exchanged that for anything she wanted, she exposed her family to the loss of house and land, and expulsion from the island, if she was known to sell any of the goods she had received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour.

12,328. Did you hear of any person being expelled for that?-No, nor threatened. They told me that several of them would have had tea and various other things in the island for selling to their neighbours, if they had been allowed, but that they were prevented from doing so, and I approved of that.

12,329. Did you find that the people were in a state of nervous apprehension about expulsion?-Not in the least.

12,330. Then how do you account for this letter, and for these charges being made, if they were not in a state of anxiety and nervousness about the matter?-I think the case was put much more strongly in the letter than it had been put to the writer of the letter by the people themselves.

12,331. You don't think that the people of Shetland or the inhabitants of Burra are liable to panics of that kind?-There was no panic that I was aware of at that time. Some of the people, when I read over the letter to them, were very much amused to hear what had been said, and they attributed the statements to two or three persons who were usually dissatisfied with their condition.

12,332. Is it within your knowledge whether the Burra people were in the habit for a series of years of carrying over their oysters to Lerwick, and retailing them there openly?-Yes. I have often met them carrying oysters to Lerwick in kishies for the purpose of selling them there.

12,333. You are acquainted with that from the fact that you then resided in Scalloway?-Yes, and from coming and going and meeting the people.

12,334. Did you find existing in Burra, at that time, feeling of bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants under them?-I could not say that there was anything of that sort. I found that the people would much rather not have been under a lessee at all, but have been allowed each to fish for himself.

12,335. Did they wish to fish and cure for themselves?-Some of them would have liked that, but I found from the best fishermen that they would not have considered that to be any advantage for the island on the whole.

12,336. What reason did they assign for their objection to being under a lessee?-Just that they were under certain restrictions as to the ling fishing; and naturally a man would prefer to be altogether free, and to be able to deal as he chose.

[Page 305]

12,337. Did you think these restrictions were such that the people might reasonably complain of them?-I thought they had not much to complain of.

12,338. At that time the lease of Messrs. Hay & Co. was within a year or two of its termination?-Yes. I think it was the last year of it.

12,339. The letter was dated 5th April 1869, and think the lease expired in November following. Has it been renewed since?-No. The tack has been continued on the old plan for two years, as a sort of intermediate arrangement. There is just a missive which expires in November next. Indeed I had some difficulty in getting Messrs. Hay to renew the arrangement, even for two years.

12,340. Were they unwilling to resume their liability for the rents upon the same terms?-Yes. The reason they gave to me was, that the great bulk of the people were fishing where they chose, and that they did not have much profit by the island.

12,341. Do you mean in the ling fishing, or in the Faroe fishing?- I mean in the fishings generally. There were only a few old men remaining at home for the fishings, and it was not a great deal of the produce of the island that they had anything to do with.

12,342. Do Messrs. Hay pay the tack duty annually or half-yearly to the proprietors?-Half-yearly.

12,343. The tenants, I suppose, as is usual in Shetland, pay only once a year?-Yes, they pay in November.

12,344. If the proprietors were taking the ground into their own hands, is it probable they would require the tenants to pay half-yearly, or has that been in your contemplation?-The money would require to be raised half-yearly, because it has to be paid half-yearly. There are heavy liabilities such as interest on bonds to be paid out of it every half-year, and the money must be raised for that purpose.

12,345. Do you believe it to be possible for the tenants in Havera, or on such an island, to pay their rents half-yearly?-I don't think such a system would work. Spring and summer is the time when they earn their money to pay their rents with, and we would not be able to collect the rents at Whitsunday from the tenants.

12,346. Are you aware whether the tacksmen of Burra interfere with the tenants in the sale of their cattle hosiery, or eggs?-I know they do not interfere with them in that way.

12,347. Are you aware whether the tacksmen insist on the tenants taking their supplies from their shops at Scalloway or Lerwick?-I am sure they do not. Nobody ever alleged that to me.

12,348. Would you as trustee for the proprietors, object to such a restriction?-Certainly.

12,349. Are you the factor on the estate?-I am trustee. I have to collect the money from the property, and pay the burdens, and account to the ladies for the residue.

12,350. Do you suppose the Burra islanders would be benefited by the establishment of shops in Burra by the tacksmen?-I don't think that would be any particular benefit to them.

12,351. Is there a population there to support shops?-Not shops.

12,352. Or a shop?-I daresay a shop might pay; but I don't think it would be any advantage to the people. They are so near to Scalloway that a shop in Burra would only get a portion of the custom of the island.

12,353. Do you think the Burra men have an opportunity of purchasing their goods at other shops than Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Certainly; they don't deal exclusively with them. They can buy their goods where they like and I think they divide their custom very much.

12,354. Where else do they buy?-In the other Scalloway shops and in Lerwick.

12,355. Did you ascertain that in the course of the inquiry which you made in 1869?-It is a fact well known to me from my intercourse with the people, I am meeting them every month, not on the island, but elsewhere.

12,356. Do they tell you that they purchase their goods elsewhere than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I never put the question to them, because I was quite aware of their dealings being divided. A great many of the men are fishing to smack owners in Lerwick, and probably have a good deal of their dealings with the merchants they fish to.

12,357. Are some of them in your own Faroe vessels?-Yes, we have two or three.

12,358. Is that your reason for believing that they are not confined in their dealings to the shops of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I know that to be a fact, from various circumstances.

12,359. But you know it from the circumstance that they are engaged in fishing to other merchants?-No; that does not follow.

12,360. It does not follow as a necessary consequence that they do not deal with Messrs. Hay & Co. but it is a reasonable presumption, that if they are fishing to another merchant they get some of their supplies from his shop?-Certainly.

12,361. Are you prepared to say that the bulk of the dealings of the Burra men is not at Messrs. Hay's shops?-I should think that much more than one half of their dealings must be with other people. That is speaking of the whole population of the island, and including those men who go to Faroe.

12,362. Are the greater number of the men in Burra engaged in the Faroe fishing?-There are more of them engaged in the Faroe fishing than in any other.

12,363. And more on an average than in other districts in Shetland?-Yes. They have taken to that kind of fishing more readily than others.

12,364. How, does it happen that they have taken to it?-I don't know; I suppose it is just from their position, and their early training in boats. They take to a good fishing rather than to the Greenland trade. They are generally good fishermen. Taking them as a class, they are better fishermen than in any other district that I know of in Shetland.

12,365. Would it be a reasonable presumption to suppose that they had taken to the Faroe fishing in order to avoid the restrictions which are laid upon them with regard to the ling fishing?- Certainly not. These young men would not have remained at home about the shore fishing. If they had not gone to Faroe they would have gone to the merchant service or to Greenland.

12,366. Do you think the restriction had anything at all to do with it?-Nothing whatever.

12,367. But you ascertained in the course of your inquiries, and you know now, that there is a restriction by the terms of their leases upon the Burra men with regard to the ling fishing?-Yes, they hold their land under condition that they are to deliver their fish to Messrs, Hay.

12,368. Your largest shop is at Reawick, and you have also two small ones at Foula and Sandness?-Yes.

12,369. Do most of the fishermen engaged in the ling fishing usually deal at one or other of the stores you have mentioned?- Yes; there is no other store near.

12,370. Do you mean that there is no other store near Reawick?- No. I thought you referred to the two smaller shops. All the men get the whole of their supplies from our stores there.

12,371. At Sandness and Foula there are no other stores within reach of the fishermen residing there?-No.

12,372. Is there any restriction upon the opening of other shops in Foula, or on the sale of goods there by any other party who chooses to attempt that?-As acting for the proprietor, I don't think we would allow it. We would not allow small shops in either of these districts if we could help it.

12,373. Would you allow a trader from Scalloway or Lerwick to sell goods out of his smack there?-Yes; and I have known instances of them going there from [Page 306] Walls and Scalloway. There is no restriction upon the like of that.

12,374. Are the inhabitants sometimes supplied with meal and articles of dress and provisions by other merchants from the mainland?-The Foula people, annually, when their fishing is over, come to the mainland, and they can then lay in what supplies they are in need of.

12,375. Do they come in every year themselves?-Not the whole of them, but many of them do.

12,376. Do you know whether or not any traders visit the islands for the purpose of selling provisions or goods?-No; they have not done that lately. They could have no object in going there.

12,377. Why?-Because they could not compete with us. We have a shop there for the supply of goods, and we supply them to the people on as moderate terms as other parties could do. Therefore the men have no object in dealing elsewhere.

12,378. I suppose it would be a very small trade that could be driven with 40 families?-Yes, rather.

12,379. But I presume you consider it fair that, as you supply these families year by year, and are in a sense responsible that their supply shall not run short, you should in return have the bulk of their business?-They may go where they choose.

12,380. But would you continue to supply them if you did not have the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the young men wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to the mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it, and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty or not and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to the schoolmaster, and asked him, to circulate it among the men.

[The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in the affirmative by 65 men:-

'Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a curing establishment on the island of Foula, and found the undivided produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of it, while furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at ordinary rates, would, now that some parties have shown an inclination and even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain the views of the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to continue their establishment as before; or would they prefer each to cure as it suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can? Whilst there is always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour, and sell their produce in what appears to them the best market, the isolated position of the island appears to require that one system be followed by all.

'The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the former system be preferred; or no if otherwise.-1867.']

12,381. Were there any negatives to the paper?-No. It created

great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they would be left to their own resources.

12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the islanders?-Yes, we went on as before.

12,383. Was it previous to that that the last attempt was made to trade in the island by outside traders?-I think so; I do not think there has been anything of that sort attempted for several years.

12,384. Do you remember when any attempt of that kind was made?-I cannot say. I remember hearing of some boats coming in from Walls or Scalloway, I forget which.

12,385. Did you object to any one coming from Orkney?-No, not in this generation. They came from Orkney above 80 years ago.

12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made by the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given it up themselves, as it had not been paying them.

12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to the inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and boats there, and part of their trade would not pay. I may say that we supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at Reawick.

12,388. The majority of the fishermen engaged in your ling fishing, you have said, have their accounts at one or other of your shops, and those at Foula and Sandness have no other shops within reach?-Yes.

12,389. Is it not the case that many of the men have accounts and take their supplies at Reawick, who live much more conveniently for other dealers in the district?-Yes, we have accounts with many people in the neighbourhood of other shops.

12,390. But the men come to you, I suppose, because they sell their fish to you?-I don't know. For instance, we give very small supplies to the Walls men. They deal a good deal in the shops in their own neighbourhood, and we pay them for their fish in cash. I have mentioned in my statement, that of £829, 19s. 1d., which was the amount of their earnings, we paid them 18s. 41/2d. in cash at settlement. These men lived from 8 to 10 miles distant from Reawick, and with some of them we have no dealings in goods at all.

12,391. Do men who live nearer Reawick take a greater amount of supplies from you?-Yes.

12,392. Why do you not adopt, with these men on the mainland, the same rule which you have laid down at Foula, that you must have their whole dealings or none?-We don't require to do it with the men on the mainland. They are at perfect liberty to deal where they choose.

12,393. But you might lay down that rule if you pleased?-We might; but I would not consider it fair to do so.

12,394. Would it be impracticable to carry it out?-I don't know. I suppose it is done in some places in Shetland; but the men in our neighbourhood have always been free to deal where they chose, since we had anything to do with them, and we were always prepared to pay them for their fish in money.

12,395. But, in point of fact, they have sometimes taken a very large portion of their earnings in goods?-I think, when we give in our schedules, it will be found that we have paid them more than one half of their earnings in money.

12,396. Was it not the case formerly, that the amount paid in goods was much larger than it has been for the last few years?- I don't think so.

12,397. I understand you buy a considerable quantity of fish which have been already cured by the crews themselves?-Yes. We don't look upon these men as our fishermen. They are at perfect liberty to sell their fish when they are cured, to any one they please.

12,398. But, in point of fact, many of these crews are composed of tenants upon your own or Mr. Umphray's property, or on Melby?-Yes, a good many of the ling fishers are.

12,399. Are you aware whether these men have been invited to sell their cured fish to other dealers than you?-Yes; I suppose they have offers every year.

12,400. But they generally prefer to sell them to you?-They do. We can always give them the best price, because we are exporters, and buy from the merchants; and we have always given the men the benefit of the highest price going.

12,401. Have you been told by them that they have been offered a higher price than you paid them, but that they preferred notwithstanding to sell to you?-No; I never knew of any case of that sort.

12,402. I have been told today that some men in that district have been willing to give a higher, or at least as high, a price as that which you gave at the end of the season for cured fish, and that they could not get the fishermen to give them the chance of buying them at all: has that come within your knowledge?-I think that is wrong. I was not present when these parties were examined to-day; but I know that one of them near our station at Dale offered the men this year £21 [Page 307] for their ling if they would sell them, but they preferred just to put fish into our hands without the price being stated, and we paid them £22 for the same fish.

12,403. What was the current price this year?-The shipping price for ling was £23, but these fish cured by the men themselves are not equal to the fish cured by us or by the larger curers. They are somewhat inferior, as they are cured in smaller quantities.

12,404. Were the men to whom that offer was made mostly tenants of your farm, or on the Melby estate?-Not necessarily; but I think the bulk of them must have been tenants on Melby.

12,405. Has any intimation ever been made to the tenants on that estate that they ought to sell their fish to you?-Never.

12,406. Has the contrary been intimated to them by Dr. Scott or by yourself?-It has always been given out that they were at perfect freedom to fish where they chose.

12,407. In your statement about the Faroe fishing, you say that the fishing could not be carried on if you were not to supply them, especially as regards lads in their first and second year: is it the case that lads at the Faroe fishing, in their first and second years, are generally much more deeply in debt to the merchant than the older men?-Yes; they require larger outfits, and they have not had any means of earning money before with which to buy clothes.

12,408. Are these outfits necessarily obtained from the merchant who owns the smack in which they sail?-We are obliged to advance them to them. It is rather a risky thing for us sometimes, but they cannot go to the fishing unless they have such supplies.

12,409. Still you can secure yourselves at settlement?-Yes, if they make a fishing.

12,410. And if they don't make a fishing, they will probably engage with you in the following year?-As a rule they do.

12,411. If they did not, you could take them to the Small-Debt Court?-Of course; but we always prefer a free man to a man who is in the book with balance against him.

12,412. Do you find that such a man fishes with more heart than a man who is in debt?-Undoubtedly.

12,413. He thinks he is going to get something for himself, and not merely something to pay off a debt?-For many years we have had very few indebted men, so that I cannot say much about that.

12,414. In arranging with the crew of a smack for the year's fishing, do you embody your agreement in writing?-Yes; it is a stamped agreement. There is one for the crew of each smack, and they are written out each year.

12,415. Do they differ materially in their details?-They are all the same for the Faroe fishing. They have been altered from year to year, according to circumstances, but not very much.

12,416. Does that agreement leave the whole power of disposing of the produce and of fixing the price in the hands of the fish-curer?-Not of fixing the price exactly. The men are to be paid at the current price for the year. That is their stipulation with us.

12,417. But the ascertainment of the current price is left entirely to the merchant?-Yes. The merchants have to dispose of the fish, and account for them to the men.

12,418. These agreements make the fishermen and the merchant really partners or joint adventurers, so far as the fishing of the season is concerned?-Of course they do.

12,419. But it leaves the merchant in the position of having the sole power over the produce, both as to selling it and fixing the price?-He has the power of completing the cure of it and of selling it. The merchant has to take the risk in selling. If we were to sell to a party who failed, we would still be responsible to the men for the current price.

12,420. Is that expressed in the agreement?-I don't think it is expressed in our agreement, but it is understood.

12,421. Is it not the case that the fishermen can only claim what is really got for the fish?-No. If we were to sell them at half-price, we would still be bound to pay the men the current rate at the end of the season.

12,422. If you sold them for the current price, but failed to recover that price from the buyer, would the fishermen have any recourse against you?-Yes; we would have to pay them.

12,423. Has that been done frequently?-No. There was one instance where we sold fish and got almost nothing for them, and yet accounted to the men for the price. I think that was in 1867. The party to whom we sold the fish stopped payment, and we only got a small compromise.

12,424. Had you paid your fishermen before the failure?-I think not; at least we knew of the loss before we settled with the fishermen, but there never was any thought of not paying them. We knew that we were responsible for the payment to the men, under the terms of the agreement.

12,425. Then the agreement does lay the risk upon you?-Yes, it does lay the risk upon us, although it does not expressly state anything about a loss.

12,426. The other articles in the agreement provide for the amount of food to be furnished by the owners?-Yes.

12,427. And a scale of victualling if the men go to Iceland?-No, we have nothing about that. Our fishermen are all partners to the end of the season. We do not pay them in wages at all.

12,428. Are there not sometimes special stipulations for that event?-Other owners sometimes send out their vessels on wages, but then it is another agreement altogether that is entered into.

12,429. What are the other conditions in your agreement?-The owners bind themselves to find the ship, and everything relating to her; to provide the coals necessary for the voyage; and to give the men an allowance of 8 lbs. of bread per week. The men, on the other side, agree to accept of a certain proportion of the fishing: one half, after deducting certain items for salting and curing the fish, in full of wages, or as their interest in the affair; and they also provide bait. The details of the agreement are given in the statement I have produced.

12,430. You say that sixty-three tons of your cure is from crews who cure their own fish and deliver them at one time at the end of the curing season; and these, of course, as you have already said, would be sold at a rather lower price than fish of your own cure?-Yes. They are never equal to our own cure; indeed they cannot be, from want of skill; and from the fish being cured in very small quantities, they can never be properly pressed.

12,431. Do you know of any case in which a trader in Walls attempted some time ago to introduce the practice of buying fish, and paying for them in cash at delivery?-Yes, I have heard of that, I think, in more cases than one.

12,432. Have you tried it yourself?-No, I don't think we have. Sometimes, if we buy small quantities from the fishermen, we pay them in cash if they wish it so.

12,433. But you have not known any case in which that has been attempted throughout the whole year?-I think the men could always sell for cash at any season if they chose.

12,434. Could they sell in that way to you?-Yes, to me or to any of the dealers in Walls. We would be quite prepared to take their fish and to pay them cash, but we would pay for them at such a safe price that they would not sell them.

12,435. Have you known of any dealer other than yourself who has attempted to introduce that system?-I know that the Walls people have offered to buy from the fishermen generally, and to pay cash if they chose, and they have probably paid some.

12,436. Do you know why they have not succeeded in carrying out that system?-They could not agree with the men about the price. They would not give so high a price in cash as the men expected.

12,437. You say that last year you employed forty beach boys from thirteen to seventeen years of age, all [Page 308] of whom had cash to get, and none of whom are in advance on the coming season: is that a usual state of things with the people employed in curing?-It is with us.

12,438. But I suppose that, in fact, they all take supplies from your stores during the season?-Yes, more or less. They must have meal to live upon, at any rate.

12,439. And they get that as they want it from you in the course of the season?-Yes.

12,440. Are they paid by beach fees?-Yes; they are paid by a certain sum, which is settled for at the end of the season.

12,441. Are any of them paid by weekly wages?-We have a number of people employed in curing fish, who are paid either daily or weekly-just occasional hands; and we sometimes have to put out quantities of fish to be cured by contract. These are paid for in cash as soon as the fish are put into the store and weighed.

12,442. In that case, are advances made at your store to the parties so employed?-Yes. We sometimes advance money while the work is going on, but never goods.

12,443. If they want money, do they come to you with a line from the contractor?-We have never given it in that way. If the contractor requires some money to pay the people who are working for him, he comes for it himself.

12,444. Have you any dealings at all with the parties employed under your contractor, or do you make him transact all the necessary business with them?-We transact with him entirely: we have nothing to do with the parties under him.

12,445. Do you also employ parties in the curing at weekly wages yourselves?-Yes. At Reawick and at all the stations we have extra hands on when there is much to do.

12,446. Do you find that these parties require to come to you for supplies before the weekly pay-day?-There are some cases of that kind, I daresay.

12,447. Is it not the case, in the majority of cases, that you have to give them supplies?-The most of our payments in that way are in cash, and they are made every week or ten days.

12,448. Is Saturday your pay-day?-We have no fixed pay-day for the people employed among the fish.

12,449. If they require to come for, advances in the meantime, in what way are these given out?-Most of our work in that way is done at Scalloway, where we have no shop, and we could not give them goods. They get their money when their work is done every week, or at all events within the fortnight.

12,450. Do they not get advances of money in the interim?-No, not the daily hands. The contractors whom I mentioned before sometimes get some money.

12,451. But the daily hands don't get any money until the settlement?-Not as a rule. I may perhaps give them a few shillings between the pays, but that is not common thing; they don't require it.

12,452. If they want supplies in the meantime, have you any idea how they get them?-I have no doubt they can get credit from the shops in Scalloway.

12,453. Do you know whether they have a practice of applying to your manager there for a line or a certificate, to the effect that they have wages to receive in order to satisfy the shopkeeper?-No; I don't think they do that.

12,454. Have you ever known of such cases?-I don't remember of any case, and I don't think there has ever been a case of the kind.

12,455. Do you know whether these people run accounts with the shopkeepers in Scalloway?-I know that often what they have to get on the Saturday night is partly forestalled in the shops.

12,456. Have they told you that, or how have you found it out?-I have found out from the shops that they were giving them credit.

12,457. Have the shopkeepers applied to you to stop their wages?-No; I would not stand that. I have always paid the money over to the people themselves, and if they have run accounts they have to go themselves and pay them.

12,458. Have you found a tendency among the people employed by you to run into debt in that way at Scalloway?-Yes.

12,459. Do you not think that is due to the system which prevails in the country, of running accounts instead of paying in ready money?-I cannot say.

12,460. Would you say that a party who was engaged to work to you for a week at curing, feels that it is a natural thing when he has money to receive at the end of the week, to have it all exhausted by his out-takes from the shop before it is due?-I don't know if it is the feeling; but it is just a custom they have got into, and a bad custom.

12,461. Then there is such a tendency to get into debt before the pay is due even when it is paid in cash?-Yes, there is a tendency in that way.

12,462. You say that you found the hosiery trade a losing one for you, but convenient for your customers?-Yes; that is the only reason why we have anything to do with it.

12,463. Is it convenient for your customers because they get supplies of goods for hosiery at your shop, without the necessity of taking the hosiery to another market and selling it?-Yes. When they come to us with money and eggs, and produce of that kind, they may have some hosiery with them too; and we cannot very well turn them away, and cause them to go a great distance with it.

12,464. Do you fix the price of the hosiery?-Yes.

12,465. You do not require to take it at a price which would not remunerate yourselves?-No. Of course, if they asked more than we were inclined to give, they would have to take it away.

12,466. Have you any dealings in kelp?-None. There is some kelp on Dr. Scott's property, but Mr. Adie purchases it.

12,467. Does he pay a rent to Mr. Scott for the kelp shores?-He pays a trifle; it is not much.

12,468. You say you have a certain number of boats engaged in what is called the home cod fishing?-Yes, they are small smacks.

12,469. You are almost the only people who are still engaged in that business?-Yes.

12,470. What number of vessels do you employ in that way?-We had five out last year; we used to have ten or twelve.

12,471. What would be the number of the crews in these five vessels?-They would average nine hands.

12,472. How long in the year are they engaged in that fishing?- For a little more than three months, from 1st May to 15th August. The men in that fishing go on shares, and are settled with in the same way as those on board the Faroe smacks. The arrangement as to the division is different in these vessels The crew get seven-twelfths of the earnings, and we don't find bread or coals.

12,473. Do these men come home oftener than the Faroe fishers?-Yes; they come home weekly. I now produce a settlement with one of these vessels. [Produces it.]

12,474. That shows that, as nearly as possible, four-fifths of the whole earnings were paid in cash?-Yes. Two of these men are our tenants. I think we had three of Mr. Hay's tenants in that vessel. It is a mixed crew; we never ask whose property they are on when we engage them.

12,475. You say in your statement that your firm has no separate accounts for the wife and none with the other members of the family, unless when they are working or fishing for themselves: is that when the other members of the family are fishermen or beach boys?-Yes.

12,476. Or when the wife is engaged in curing?-We have no married women employed in any branch of our business.

12,477. Do you keep any account with women engaged in the curing?-No. These women are only employed by the day.

12,478. I believe that you are yourself a skilful boatman, and acquainted with the fishing in all its details? Do you think it possible in Shetland to prosecute the [Page 309] winter fishing to a greater extent than at present, if boats of a superior class were introduced?-Not to any great extent. I have no doubt the fishing will increase. It is increasing, and will increase, and the boats will be improved

12,479. I presume you would be glad to continue curing to as large an extent in winter as in summer, if you could get the fish delivered to you?-Yes. I think there are facilities all round Shetland for that and they could sell their fish any day. It is not for the want of a market that the men don't fish. The great barrier is the weather.

12,480. Would the weather be as great a barrier if the boats were of an improved class?-The men could not have a better class of boats than they have.

12,481. Would decked boats not enable them to fish all the winter?-No.

12,482. What is the difference in that respect between Shetland and the east coast of Scotland?-We have a heavier sea, and more uncertain weather here. Our present boats can go out in a lull, and some more quickly ashore when the weather gets rough; but the heavier decked vessels could not do that. In order to fish with decked vessels, the men would require to remain at sea in good and bad weather.

12,483. Would that be impracticable here?-I think so. It would not pay.

12,484. Would that be from want of a market?-No; it would be because there was not enough good weather, and the men would not catch fish enough. Some of the welled smacks have gone out in winter, and gone up to Grimsby with their fish, and that has paid occasionally.

12,485. Are there vessels of that class in use in Shetland?-Yes, several. Mr. Harrison had one up in December which succeeded very well, and there is one out from Scalloway just now at Faroe; but it is not considered that it will be extensively or generally continued, the fishing is so precarious.

12,486. Are the men unwilling to engage in the winter fishing in any of these modes?-I think it will be very difficult to get many men to go to it.

12,487. In other places the winter fishing with decked vessels is practised all winter, is it not?-On the coast of England it is.

12,488. The men there go to the Dogger Bank mostly?-Yes.

12,489. Is there any reason why that sort of fishing cannot be practised in Shetland?-There are many reasons why it cannot be done. There is the heavy sea, and the deep water, and the nature of the fishing grounds.

12,490. Would long-line fishing be impracticable on the banks of Shetland?-In winter it would. It could not be done in these vessels.

12,495. Is that owing to the nature of the ground, or for what reason?-It is owing to the depth of the water and the strong tides.

12,492. Has it ever been tried to set lines from these decked vessels?-In summer it has been tried, and it has generally failed. It has always been discontinued.

12,493. I believe it is necessary to set lines with rowing vessels?- Yes; the fishermen consider that to be the safest way, after all.

12,494. But they do sail out their lines sometimes, do they not?- Yes; and that saves them the trouble of pulling.

12,495. Is it only recently that that practice has been introduced?- I think so. I have not heard of it until lately; but I believe it is now done in consequence of larger boats being used than were in use at one time.

12,496. What is the amount of the poor-rate in the parish of Sandsting?-It is 2s. 4d. on the landlord, and the same on the tenant.

12,497. Is not that rather above the average?-It is. In Walls it is 1s. 10d. Alexander Wallace is the inspector in Sandsting, and Mr. Umphray is the chairman of the Board.

12,498. Does Wallace live in Sandsting?-Yes; on the Walls road.

12,499. How long has he been inspector?-I could not say. I think six or eight years, or more than that.

12,500. Where does he pay the paupers' allowances?-I think he used to go to the parish church at one time, but latterly, I believe, he has paid them at his own house.

12,501. Who is the inspector in Walls?-James Georgeson.

12,502. Does he also pay the paupers at his own house?-Yes, so far as I know.

12,503. Has there ever been a practice of paying them at Reawick?-There are a few, I think five or six, in that district whom our shopman has been in the habit of paying. Wallace sends their pay to him, as they live five or six miles from his (Wallace's) house.

12,504. Are these paupers always paid in cash?-Yes.

12,505. Are they paid in the shop?-I suppose so. There was some inquiry about that lately. I asked the man about it, and he said he invariably paid them in cash; but we put a stop to it, as the thing was not considered to be regular. It had just been done to save the inspector trouble, or to save the people from going so far for their money.

12,506. Have you any knowledge as to how men are employed here for the Greenland fishery?-I am not engaged in that business myself, but I know pretty well how the thing goes on.

12,507. Are there any men from your district employed in that fishery?-There are a few who go to it from some little distance from where I live.

12,508. Do the men employed in that fishing require a larger and more expensive outfit than those who are employed in other fishings or in other seafaring pursuits?-They require warmer clothing. I think that is the only difference.

12,509. Do you suppose that the first month's wages which a lad going to that fishing gets is sufficient to provide him with the necessary outfit?-Certainly not, and I know that in consequence of that very few lads are now going to Greenland. They cannot be fitted out now as they used to be before the new Board of Trade regulations were issued.

12,510. Have you that knowledge from the statements of the lads in your neighbourhood?-Yes, I know it from the men and the lads who go to the fishing. It is coming to be mostly men who are taken for these voyages.

12,511. Is that because the men have already got outfits?-Yes. They could not take lads who are insufficiently clothed; while the men are better clothed, and are more able to stand the severity of the climate. That fishing used to be a nursery for our young men, bringing them up to be able to take their position in the merchant service; but now it is not, and cannot be.

12,512. Do you think the result of the Board of Trade regulations has been to prevent agents in Lerwick from giving the young men credit for their outfits?-I think that must have been the result; and it has prevented so many young men from being employed as there used to be.

12,513. Have you known of any young men going to Greenland with insufficient outfits in consequence of that difficulty in getting credit?-I cannot say that I have known of any particular case; but I should suppose it was very likely to have happened.

12,514. Do you know that, in point of fact, young men engaging to go to Greenland cannot get any reasonable amount of credit from an agent in Lerwick?-Yes, I know that to be the fact; and I also know it to be the fact that there are very few young men now going there.

12,515. Can you tell me of any young man who has said to you that he would have gone to Greenland if he could have got an outfit?-No, I cannot.

12,516. Has that ever been said to you by any young man in Shetland?-I don't know that I ever put the question to any one.

12,517. Has anybody made such a statement to you without you having put the question?-No. I have asked some of the men how it was that there were so [Page 310] very few green hands now going to Greenland, and they said the young men and lads could not be fitted out now as they were before,-that they could only get one month's advance, and that if their wages were only 16s. or 20s. a month, that would only buy them a pair of boots, and they had nothing for clothing.

12,518. In what way did that question suggest itself to your mind?-I think it was from noticing the fact of so many young lads pressing in to go to Faroe. We found more lads wishing employment at Faroe than we could find room for, and on making inquiry I found that that was the reason.

12,519. Why is it that the agents do not give the same credit as they gave before?-I think it must be in consequence of the Board of Trade regulations.

12,520. But these regulations do not interfere directly with the giving of credit; they only provide that the payment of wages shall take place in presence of the superintendent at the Custom House and shall be in cash?-I am aware of that.

12,521. The agent has, with an honest man, the same security for payment of his account that he had before, only the wages cannot be retained by him at settlement?-It must be from the fact that the wages cannot be retained, that the credit has been limited.

12,522. Do you think it would be an expedient thing that these young men should be allowed to incur an account for their outfit, and that the agent furnishing that outfit should be in a position to retain the wages due at the end of the voyage?-I would not give an opinion upon that point. Perhaps it is better as it is.

12,523. Do you wish to make any remarks upon the Report by Mr. Hamilton to the Board of Trade, which was printed in the appendix to the previous report of the Commissioners?-I think that report is manifestly incorrect in what Mr. Hamilton says in regard to the Shetland system generally. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' I don't know where Mr. Hamilton could have got that information from.

12,524. Your own firm is an exception as regards the women, because you have no transactions with them?-It is surely not an exception. I think it must be the rule. I don't believe that such a system exists generally, as that of keeping separate accounts for a husband and wife.

12,525. But the younger members of the family may have separate accounts, and a few of them have separate accounts even in your business?-They have, if they are employed by us. A man may have five or six sons, every one fishing and getting his own share and having his own account.

12,526. May some of these sons be as young as twelve or fourteen years of age?-They begin about fourteen to go to the fishing, as well as to go to the beach. It appears to me that Mr. Hamilton's report has been rounded very much on hearsay, and on opinions which he had formed when he was a boy.

12,527. Was the state of things different in Shetland when he was a boy from what it is now?-Yes, it was a good deal different; I think we are improving. I think there are more of the fishermen now who are free to deal as they choose. I think they have a much greater outfit in every way for fishing, and much better returns; and the fishermen, as a class, are living better and wearing better than they did in those days.

12,528. Is there anything else in the report that you wish to correct?-I consider that the report is altogether wrong.

12,529. I should like specific statements about that, because gentlemen have come to contradict the report before and have gone through it sentence by sentence?-I consider that Mr. Hamilton was going out of his way altogether in making that report.

12,530. Still it might be correct, for all that?-It might be; but it appears to have some weight as coming from the Board of Trade, whereas Mr. Hamilton could have no opportunity of knowing these things from personal knowledge or of judging for himself.

12,531. The point on which he had been directed to inquire was as to the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling vessels?-Yes; and if he had confined himself to that, he would have been doing what was quite right; but all these general remarks about the Shetland System are very wide of the mark, and must have been got from hearsay, because many of them are incorrect. He says, for instance, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he will probably never get any employment again.' I look upon that as an ill-natured, unfounded remark.

12,532. Was there any foundation for that in time past?-I don't believe there was any foundation for such a statement at any time.

12,533. Have you any personal knowledge that enables you to contradict that statement, or have you any knowledge of the matter different from the hearsay knowledge which you attribute to Mr. Hamilton?-I am much better able to judge of it, because I have been mixed up with these men every day for the last thirty years, and if such a thing had taken place I would have heard of it.

12,534. Have you ever made any inquiry among them as to whether that statement was correct?-I have made the most minute inquiries as to how they were treated, and they volunteered statements about how they got on, and why they went to one agent rather than to another.

12,535. What sort of reasons did they give for that?-Of course they had their own reasons for preferring one agent to another. For instance one man thought he got his supplies cheaper from a particular agent, and he went to him.

12,536. Did the reasons they gave for preferring one agent to another, all assume that the man got his supplies from the agent who engaged him?-I have been speaking now of what took place in the trade formerly. For some years back I have not heard anything about supplies at all. They say they get their month's advance now in money.

12,537. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the men do get their supplies from the agent still?-I believe they get them to a very small extent.

12,538. You mean to a small extent, compared with what was the case in former times?-I believe so.

12,539. Is that belief rounded upon the statements of the men themselves, or is it simply from hearsay?-I have been told so by the men.

12,540. Have they told you that they get smaller outfits now than they did formerly, or smaller supplies from their agents?-The class of men who go now to that fishing are not the same as they used to be; they do not require the supplies which the green hands used to get.

12,541. You mean that they do not require so large outfits?-Yes.

12,542. But if they are men with families they probably require much larger supplies for their families during their absence. I suppose they get these supplies from the agents?-I know that in some cases they do; but I know that my firm supplies many of the families of men who go to Greenland, and they pay us in money when they come back and have got their settlement.

12,543. Has your firm a larger business in the way of supplying the families of fishermen who go to Greenland than it formerly had before these regulations of the Board of Trade were introduced?- I think so. I think that formerly the men confined themselves more to the agents for their supplies.

12,544. Are you aware whether at any time the men were under any obligation to ship with one agent more than with another for the Greenland voyage: have you [Page 311] heard anything to that effect from the men?-No. I never heard them speak about being compelled in any way with regard to the Greenland trade.

12,545. I do not speak of compulsion; but have you heard of them being expected or obliged in any way, or of influence being used?-I never heard of them being influenced in any way. I don't think that was ever the practice with regard to the Greenland trade.

12,546. Is there any other passage in the report to which you wish to refer?-Mr. Hamilton says, 'This is merely one phase of the truck system in Shetland, on which are also based arrangements with the crews of coasting and home trade vessels, of the few foreign going vessels, of the Faroe and Iceland fishing vessels, and of the large fleet of fishing boats. Some of the seamen and fishermen feel, and bitterly complain of, the bondage of the system; but, as a rule, the character and habits of the natives have become so assimilated to it, that they are either unconscious of its existence, or are reconciled to its working, that they would probably themselves be averse to any change; for although they may have no option but to work for one master at such remuneration in goods as he may see fit to give, yet they feel that in bad seasons he will not let them starve.' That is a fearfully overdrawn picture.

12,547. I suppose your firm has often had occasion to make large advances in a bad season in order to carry your fishermen through?-Yes.

12,548. And these advances have been repaid by the men from the produce of the following seasons?-Yes; but I deny that there are such hardships as are spoken of here. We have often had to advance a fisherman for perhaps two years' rent, and he had to remain in debt. His fishing was not sufficient to meet his requirements.

12,549. In that case the man would usually continue to fish for you?-Yes. He usually continues until he has wrought off his debt.

12,550. Have you known men in that position who attempted to dispose of their fish to other employers?-I cannot say that I have.

12,551. Have they always continued with you until their debt was wiped off?-They continued from year year at any rate.

12,552. But they did not leave you in these circumstances?-No; as a class, they are much too honest for that.

12,553. Have you ever had an occasion, when a man came to you from another employer, to become responsible to that employer for a debt due by the fisherman to him?-No, I don't think we ever undertook anything of that kind.

12,554. Have you been in the converse position of obtaining payment of a debt due to you from a fisherman who changed his employment?-I don't recollect any case of the kind.

12,555. Does any arrangement exist between your firm and any other by which you undertake the debts of that firm, and they undertake yours in such cases?-No; we have never taken fishermen into our employment under such circumstances. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'The employer has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of their labour, leaving to them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' That is a state of things which I know nothing about, and I don't believe it exists.

12,556. If a merchant has full power to fix the price of the fish, and if he also fixes the price at which he sells his goods, and the fisherman has no other place where he can get credit for the supplies which are necessary for his existence, is it not conceivable that that state of matters might be abused?-It is conceivable, and there may be a few cases of that kind; but to speak of that as being the rule, is not correct.

12,557. Have you ever heard complaints from the men engaged in the Greenland fishery that they could not get their wages settled for at an earlier period?-I never heard of any difficulty in that way.

12,558. Have you heard them complain that the agent had contrived to keep them in his debt?-I never heard of such a thing. Often when they had money to pay to us, they have said they had not been in for their wages, and that they were going; but they never said there was any difficulty in getting it, if they only went to Lerwick for it.

12,559. Is all the rest of Mr. Hamilton's report correct except those passages you have referred to?-Certainly not. I do not agree with it at all. There is shade of truth about some things stated in it, but it is overstated.

12,560. Do you differ from this statement in it: 'For this purpose they employ agents in Lerwick who get, as I am informed, little direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men?'-That used to be the case.

12,561. That means, of course, that the agents' chief profit arose from their sales of goods to the men; and that used to be the case formerly?-Yes.

12,562. When did it cease to be the case?-I believe that since the Board of Trade regulations were enforced there has been a change.

12,563. Have you heard of any gentlemen giving up the agency in the Greenland trade in consequence of their failure of profit from that source?-I think Messrs. Hay & Co. have given it up; I have not heard of any others.

12,564. Have you any doubt at all that the principal part of these agents' profits was derived from sales of that kind, at least previous to 1868?-I should think that that is quite correct, if you speak of several years ago.

12,565. The price for the fish caught in the summer fishing is fixed according to the current price for dry fish at the end of the season. How is that current price ascertained?-We know how much green fish make one cwt. of dry. It varies according to the size of the fish, and their original quality. The average is about 21/4 cwt. of green fish to one cwt. of dry.

12,566. Is that the average which is taken in calculating the price every year, or is there sometimes a different average taken?-That is taken generally. It varies a little, according to the fish being very thin or fat at the time they are caught; but 21/4 cwt. is a very fair estimate taking one time with another. We know how many tons of wet fish we have at the station, and we know how many tons of dry fish we get from that place. I have seen the proportion as high as 21/2 cwt.

12,567. The produce of dry fish at one station might differ from the same quantity of wet at another?-Yes, it will never be the same.

12,568. Then, in calculating the amount in order to settle with the men, do you take it overhead at all your stations?-We take our chance of it varying.

12,569. You do not settle with the men at one station according to the actual quantity of dry fish produced from the green fish delivered there?-No. We have one price for all the season.

12,570. How do you ascertain the current price of dry fish in order to settle with the men? Is it from your own sales, or do you communicate with other merchants?-We are not very extensively engaged in buying the fish green from the men.

12,571. Do you not buy sixty or eighty tons annually?-Yes; but we generally make a calculation for ourselves. We don't always pay the current price.

12,572. Is it not your bargain to pay the current price?-That is the understanding with the men; but we have sometimes paid the current price, and sometimes we have paid more. We don't bind ourselves by what others pay.

12,573. Did you ever pay less than the current price?-No; but we have sometimes paid more.

12,574. The men have no voice at all in settling what the price shall be: it is left entirely to the merchants, is it not?-I think it is left very much to the merchants with regard to the green fish.

12,575. Is the competition for fish sufficient here to bring the price up to the highest figure?-Yes; there is no fear of that.

12,576. Are you prepared to say that any complaints [Page 312] which the fishermen make to the effect that they do not get the fair current price which they ought to get for their green fish, as regulated by the current price at the end of the season, are unfounded?-We very seldom have such complaints.

12,577. But if there were such complaints, do you say they are unfounded?-I think the fishermen, generally are very fairly paid for green fish.

12,578. Are there not two prices for fish exported from Shetland, according as they are sent to one market or to another?-There are many prices. Although a current price is fixed, there may be a considerable difference in what the curer realizes. If a curer chooses to take the chance of consigning to a certain market, he may get more or he may get less than if he chose to sell here at what is the shipping price.

12,579. If a curer sends his fish to the Spanish market, for example, he may get a much higher price than by selling to a purchaser at home?-He may get a higher price.

12,580. Does he generally do so?-He generally does, because it is the best fish that are selected for that market; and if I choose to reserve a certain portion of any cure and take my chance of how the market will be going after Christmas, I may get more or I may get less. I may speculate in that way as I like; but every curer does not get the same price for his fish, although there is a current price fixed.

12,581. How is that current price fixed?-I cannot explain it very well. There is generally a great fight for about a fortnight between the purchasers from the south and the merchants here. The south-country buyers come down here, and sometimes they come to terms at once but sometimes they go away without fixing if they cannot agree upon the terms. About the month of September, however, the price generally comes to a figure at last at which the bulk of the fish go.

12,582. At that time are there communications between the fish-curers here upon the subject?-Yes; they consult together as to the offers they have, and whether they are to hold for a higher price, or take what they can get.

12,583. Is it usual that the bulk of the fish is sold at nearly the same figure?-As a rule, the bulk of the fish go at one price.

12,584. And the current price, according to which the men are paid, is fixed by that?-Yes.

12,585. Do you think it would be possible to introduce in the fishing trade here a system of paying at short intervals for the fish delivered?-I think it would be quite impossible. We would be very thankful if we could do so. We would be quite ready to pay our own men in cash the same as we pay all the Englishmen. We get large quantities of fish from English vessels, for which we pay cash; and we would be quite as ready to pay our own men in cash as them.

12,586. Why is that impossible?-There are many reasons for it. Our men deliver their fish at a great number of little stations all round the islands, and we could not have a person at each of these stations to pay them, without a considerable expense. That is the case with the curers generally.

12,587. You have only two stations besides Reawick?-We have more stations than that for receiving fish.

12,588. Would the factor who receives the fish not be quite competent to pay the men at short intervals?-Sometimes he might be there for that purpose, and sometimes not; but the difficulty would be with the men themselves. They would not be satisfied to have a price fixed then.

12,589. But part of the price might be paid as a bounty, as it were, and the balance might be payable according to the current price?- Such an arrangement might be made; but I don't see any object it could serve because, if our men wish an advance of money during the fishing season at present, they can get it. If they wish money to pay for anything they require while the fishing is going on, we make no difficulty in giving them that advance, because we know they are delivering fish which will cover it.

12,590. Would not the principal difficulty in the way of such a system be the necessity under which the men are of getting advances in goods or cash during the season? Would they be able to hold on till the fortnightly or monthly payment without getting advances?-They only require a very small proportion of their fishing, either in money or in goods, during the season. The great proportion of it has to be reserved for their annual payments of rent and poor-rates, and various other things of that sort. The great difficulty would be with the men: they would not like the system, because they would feel that they would be losers by it.

12,591. How would they be losers?-Because no curer would risk such a high price in the summer season as he is ready to pay the men in the autumn, when he sees what he can afford to pay.

12,592. But when a certain amount of fish is delivered, it is quite plain that something will be due to the fishermen at the end of the season: would it not be possible then to fix a minimum price, below which there could be no reasonable expectation of the fish falling at the end of the season, and the men might be paid according to that minimum price?-That would only increase trouble, without any earthly advantage, so far as I can see.

12,593. The men would have the money in their own hands?-The men have the money in their own hands as it is. I believe that from all respectable curers they get money for any purpose they ask it for.

12,594. But they have to go and ask for it specially?-Certainly.

12,595. And perhaps they have to ask for it as a favour?-Well, it is a favour. The money is not due for the fish. They have delivered the article, but it is in advance.

12,596. You mean the bargain is that the fish are to be delivered as caught, but not to be payable till the end of the season; so that the mistake, if there is one is in making that bargain?-I don't see that there is any mistake in it.

12,597. Do you not think the fisherman would be wiser to make the bargain to get his money paid as he wants it, instead of being obliged, when he does want it in the course of the season, to ask for it as a favour?-Such a system could not work, because in these boats there are certain expenses which must come off the whole crew. They may have hired men along with them, and they could not divide each day's fishing or each week's fishing, without a great deal of trouble and confusion.

12,598. Do you think the present arrangements between the curers and the men are so complicated that it is necessary to have only one settlement for the year?-I think the present system is the best that can be devised. It would be a complicated system if weekly payments were made; but there is no complication as it is at present.

12,599. Do you think the system that has been suggested would require too much accounting?-Yes; and the men could not take the time to do it, without being great losers.

12,600. Do you receive a large portion of your annual cure from the English boats which fish for you?-Yes. I suppose we receive about one-third of our cure from them. All the men who fish for us in these boats are paid wages, and they have a small allowance, called score money, on the fish which each man takes.

12,601. Do you buy their fish green at a fixed price?-Yes, at a price fixed with the master or owner, usually before the vessel comes out.

12,602. That price is a standing price for the whole season?-Yes, we take our chance.

12,603. And the owner also takes his chance?-Yes.

12,604. Do you think the men in these boats prosecute the fishing as vigorously and successfully as those in the Shetland boats, who are paid on a different principle?-They prosecute it with great rigour. Generally they are thoroughbred fishermen. They have all been apprenticed to the fishing when they were boys of 8 or 10 years of age.

12,605. Can you say that the practice which prevails in the Shetland boats produces a greater amount of energy in carrying on the fishing, and results in a [Page 313] larger capture of fish than in the case of these Grimsby boats?-I know that the Shetland boats catch more fish when competing with the others.

12,606. Are they equipped in the same way, or is there any difference in the style of boat or of equipment which would account for that?-They are very much the same class of vessel as to size and equipment.

12,607. Are the English boats in any way superior?-No, there is very little difference. Some of the smacks we have are the very same, having been built by the same builders. I am speaking now of the Faroe fishing, and these English vessels are all of the same size and description.

12,608. Which system do you think the best of the two?-The best for the Shetland fishermen is to have their share. Our men are better paid than the Englishmen.

12,609. Do they take more from their shares than the Englishmen take from their wages, as a rule?-Yes. I know the amount of their earnings.

12,610. I have been requested to ask you this question: In what number of boats, fishing at one station to different curers, would these men be willing to accept the value of a week's fishing, probably amounting to £20, and carry to their homes by sea, or undertake the subdivision of them more frequently than once annually, that at present?-I think I have answered that, or almost that question already. I have already said that I believe the men would refuse to adopt that system.

12,611. Is that in consequence of the trouble it would entail in dividing the fish?-Yes, and the time taken up with it. Besides, they don't require it.

12,612. How do you account for the English boats coming north to compete with the Shetland crews, although they receive less for their fishing than the Shetland fishermen do?-They are fishing all the year round, and they come north to fill up their time when fresh fish do not pay them on their own coasts.

12,613. Fishing is their only employment?-Yes.

12,614. You think it is not likely to become the only employment of Shetland fishermen?-Not generally.

12,615. And you think it is not expedient that it should?-I don't think it is. I think they all require something to do on the land as well.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, examined.

12,616. Are you a fisherman and tenant in Skerries?-I am.

12,617. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Bruce.

12,618. Do you pay your rent to him?-No, to Mr. Adie.

12,619. Is he your tacksman?-Yes.

12,620. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Adie.

12,621. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie, or can you engage to fish with anybody you like?-We are bound to fish for Mr. Adie.

12,622. How do you know that?-Because Mr. Adie told us we were not at liberty to fish for any other man except him.

12,623. When did he tell you that?-I cannot state the date exactly, but it has been since I commenced to fish there, eighteen years ago. That was the time when the agreement was made last.

12,624. What agreement?-That we were to deliver all our produce, fish, and every other thing, to him, and to no one else.

12,625. If you chose to fish for anybody else, what was the penalty to be?-That we were to be removed from our crofts.

12,626. Has any person been removed for fishing to another than Mr. Adie?-None, for there have been no offenders.

12,627. How many people are in these lands?-There are almost 130 of a population, old and young. There are six boats belonging to the islands that fish for Mr. Adie.

12,628. Do a number of people come there in the summer time from other places to fish?-Yes. They fish both to Mr. Adie and to Mr. Robertson. These are the only two who employ men there.

12,629. Has Mr. Robertson a station and a shop there?-Yes; he has a store for supplying his fishermen.

12,630. Is it open all the year round?-No, only during the fishing season.

12,631. Where do you get your supplies?-From Mr. Adie's shop at Skerries. It is open all the year round, and is kept by Robert Umphray.

12,632. Do you pay for your supplies at the time you get them, or do you settle for them at the end of the year?-Sometimes at the end of the year, and sometimes not for fifteen months.

12,633. How does it happen that you are sometimes fifteen months in settling?-We live in an isolated place, and Mr. Adie's people cannot sometimes get conveniently exactly at the twelvemonth's end, but they make arrangements to come when they please.

12,634. Is it sometimes late in the spring before they come to settle?-Sometimes we have not settled until March, but the usual time is at Martinmas.

12,635. Have you any objection to that state of things?-The only objection I have to it is that we do not have our freedom to fish to the person who will pay us best, and we should also like to be able to get our goods from the best market we can, and at the cheapest price we can.,

12,636. Can you not get your goods from any market you please just now?-No.

12,637. Why?-Because we cannot get our pay in hand.

12,638. Can you not get cash from Mr. Adie or from Mr. Umphray when you ask for it?-Yes, if we have it to get.

12,639. If you want supplies during the season, before the settlement comes, do you get them?-Yes, we can get our supplies then, as far as our earnings are likely to cover them.

12,640. Have you ever been restricted?-Yes; they only allow us to go so far as our earnings are likely to pay, and no further.

12,641. Have you ever been refused supplies?-Yes. I cannot give the date of that, but I have been put on an allowance both of meal and other things.

12,642. Did you get a certain amount of goods from the store each week?-Yes, each Saturday night.

12,643. How often have you been put upon that allowance?-That is always done, unless we can clear ourselves in Mr. Adies book.

12,644. When were you last put upon an allowance?-In 1869.

12,645. Was that a year of scarcity?-In our isolated place there is generally scarcity, because our crops are scanty.

12,646. Are they not sufficient to keep your families all the year round?-No.

12,647. Therefore you have every year to buy a certain amount of meal from Mr. Adie?-Yes, we have generally to buy about six months' provisions from him.

12,648. Were you put on an allowance in 1869 because you were in debt?-Yes

12,649. What allowance was made to you then?-Three pecks of meal a week; and there are seven of us in the family.

12,650. Was that less than you required?-Of course it was, but I could get no more.

12,651. How much do you use when you are not upon an allowance?-I could not say exactly, because when I can buy it for myself I take no notice. I think, however, we would require about five pecks a week.

12,652. Did you find the allowance of three pecks to be too small for you?-Of course we did.

12,653. Was the rest of the island put upon an allowance at that time?-All the indebted men were.

12,654. Were there many of them?-Most of the men in Skerries, in the fishing line were in debt at that time.

12,655. At what season of the year was that?-In summer.

[Page 314]

12,656. Were there a number of men at that time in the island who did not live there?-Yes, a great number.

12,657. Were they put on an allowance too?-I could not say as to that. I can only speak of those who live constantly in the island, and more especially myself.

12,658. Do you not think it was quite reasonable, that if a person to whom you were due money was to continue to make you further advances, he should use his own discretion as to the amount of these advances?-Of course, if I got the goods at the market price. I think I ought to have got my meal, or whatever I was requiring, at the market price in Lerwick, adding something for freight.

12,659. Did you not get it at that rate?-No; I found that I could buy meal 7s. per sack cheaper in Lerwick than in Skerries; and from that down to the lowest thing we got, it was generally charged one-third more than it could be got for in Lerwick or any place near to it. I have paid for a sack of meal at Mr. Adie's station at Skerries, when I could have got it from any merchant in Lerwick at 50s. or 51s.

12,660. That was a difference of 10s.: when did you do that?-I could not say, but I have done it. I think it was about four years back.

12,661. Was that before 1869, when you were put on an allowance?-Yes.

12,662. Were you in debt at that time?-Yes.

12,663. Did you get an advance of a sack of meal at a time, and were charged 61s. for it?-Yes.

12,664. Where could you have got it in Lerwick for 50s. or 51s.?- From Mr. John Robertson, senior. I got it from him at that, and paid the cash down.

12,665. Did you get another sack from Mr. Adie at the same time?-Yes, at the same date.

12,666. Did you get both of these supplies within month of each other?-Within a month or two.

12,667. Have you any pass-book or any paper to show that?-No.

12,668. Did you get a receipt from Mr. Robertson for the money?-No.

12,669. At what season of the year was that?-In January.

12,670. And you think that was about four years ago?-Yes.

12,671. That would probably be about January 1868?-I think so, but I cannot exactly say.

12,672. Did you buy the meal from Mr. Robertson in your own name?-One part in my own name, and the other part in the name of my father, John Hutchison.

12,673. Who gave the order to Mr. Robertson?-I did.

12,674. Did you tell him that one half of the meal was for yourself and one half for your father?-Yes.

12,675. Do you know whether the purchase was entered in his books?-I cannot say, for I paid the cash down.

12,676. Do you know anything about the quality of that meal?-It was just about the same quality as we could get from Mr. Adie.

12,677. Was it before or after you got the meal from Mr. Robertson, that you bought the sack at 61s. from Mr. Umphray?- It was after, about two months after at the furthest.

12,678. Did you say anything to him about the price when you got it?-I did; and Mr. Umphray told me he must sell it at the invoice price which his master sent to him.

12,679. Did you take the meal at that price?-I was obliged to do so, when I could not make a better of it.

12,680. Could you not have gone and got some more from Mr. Robertson?-I could; but I had no expectation of having anything at the end of the time with which to pay him.

12,681. Did you think Mr. Robertson would not have given it to you on credit?-I don't think it, for I could not have asked it.

12,682. Do you think Mr. Robertson would have given you the meal as cheap if you had been buying it on credit?-He would have given it to me cheaper on credit than Mr. Adie did.

12,683. Is there any other time that you remember, when you bought meal or any other goods at Adie's shop, and when you could have got them cheaper elsewhere?-That has happened every time.

12,684. But did you ever try at what price you could get your goods at another place in the same way as you did at that time?- I have done so at times. We can get as many sillock hooks at Messrs. Hay's shop, at Simbister in Whalsay, for 1d. as we can get beside us for 11/2d.

12,685. Do you generally buy your sillock hooks at Whalsay?- No; we generally go for them to the store where we are supplied. I could also get washing soda in Lerwick for 1d., and we pay 11/2d. for it at Skerries. I bought 14 lbs. of it in Lerwick yesterday at 1d. a lb. The last I bought at Skerries was about two months ago, and it was marked down to me at 11/2d. If I were buying as much as 14 lbs. at a time in Skerries, I would get no discount upon it; I would still be charged 11/2d. per lb.

12,686. Do many of the people in Skerries go for their supplies to other places?-No; they all go to Adie's store for them.

12,687. Why do they do that when the prices are so high as you say?-Because they are bound so far to do it, in this way: that they fish for him, and all their earnings go to him, and they must go to the store for whatever supplies they require.

12,688. Do you mean that they are obliged to get their supplies on credit, and that they have credit nowhere else?-They cannot have credit anywhere else until they see whether they have any money to get, and then they can come to Lerwick or any other place with their money; but they cannot do that at any other time.

12,689. Are you at liberty to sell the produce of your farm to any person you please?-No. We are under the restriction to take it all to Mr. Adie's store.

12,690. Who told you that?-Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor.

12,691. Is there anybody else you could sell it to?-No; except in the summer time, when Mr. Robertson's man is there.

12,692. Have any of you offered to sell to him?-Yes.

12,693. Have you been prevented from doing so?-Yes; we have been prevented in this way, that we were obliged to go to Mr. Adie with all that we had, or else we would have been put out of our crofts.

12,694. Did anybody ever interfere with you selling to Mr. Robertson?-If it had been known that it had been done, they would have interfered; but no man, so far as I know, ever put the produce of his farm or of his fishing past Mr. Adie.

12,695. Do you know of any person being fined for selling to Mr. Robertson's man?-No; but I know that my father was fined 2s. 6d. for selling a dozen of eggs to a man at the lighthouse station. That was in 1858.

12,696. Was that by Mr. Umphray?-Yes.

12,697. Was he Mr. Adie's factor at that time?-Yes.

12,698. Do you know of anybody having been fined in the same way since?-No; except men going to Greenland, or going any other way where they think they can be better. They are fined in this way, that every man, young and old, on the island, is obliged to fish for Mr. Adie.

12,699. But if a man goes to Greenland he is not on the island?- No; and it is for that reason he is fined.

12,700. But if he is not on the island, how can he be fined?-He comes back in the winter.

12,701. Who has been fined in that way?-I was fined, for one, in 1855.