NOTES 1. (continued 13)

3804. In a case of that kind, are your shopkeepers instructed to make the advance to the men in either way?-If a man wants an advance of £1 or £2 we make it to him ourselves, and the people when they want goods, go to the shop for them.

3805. At what time are these advances generally made?-During the winter or the spring seasons, before the fishing begins again.

3806. And during the autumn, before the settlement for the years fishing has come round?-Yes. They frequently get money during the summer.

3807. I suppose the settlement with your men in Lerwick takes place in the office and not in the shop?-Yes, in the office.

3808. When the men get their payments in money, are they at liberty to go where they like to spend them?-Yes; they get the money in their hands, and go away from us with it.

3809. Whether they are Burra men or Whalsay men or strangers?-Yes. We settle with the Whalsay men at Whalsay; but all the money that we give at the settlements here, the men go away with it out of the office.

3810. Is the settlement with the Whalsay men made in the shop?- No; they are settled with at the manor-house at Simbister.

3811. Where is the settlement made at Gossaburgh?-The settlement with the Yell tenants is made at the house of West Sandwick.

3812. Have you shops in Yell?-None.

3813. The fishermen there, however, are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Some of the Yell fishermen deliver their fish in summer at Fetlar, and others again deliver them at Northmavine.

3814. What is the extent of the Gossaburgh estate?-I suppose the rental is about £400 or £500, and I think the number of tenants is about 120.

3815. Are the whole of these men bound to fish to you alone?- Not the men sailing out of the country. It is only the men remaining at home and fishing there during the summer who are bound to fish to us.

3816. Who is the proprietor of the Gossaburgh estate?-Mrs. Henderson Robertson.

3817. In speaking of the rental, you refer to the rent paid by Messrs. Hay & Co. as lessees, which is about £500 a year?-Yes; I think it is between £400 and £500.

3818. What will the average rental of the holdings be?-Perhaps from 30s. to £5 or £6. There is one party who pays £65 or £70, but he is not a fisherman.

3819. What is the gross rental paid to you from the estate?-It will be seen from the valuation roll. I could not tell the gross rental off-hand, because it is a peculiar tack. We pay a certain fixed sum for it, and then we pay all the burdens on the estate, and it varies somewhat. It is more in one year than in another.

3820. Are the tacks under which you hold Burra and Gossaburgh in writing?-Yes, they are both written tacks.

3821. Do these tacks contain any reference to your [Page 92] rights with regard to fishing?-The tacks state that we are at liberty to let the lands, remove the tenants, and take new tenants, and that we are to pay certain sums for the ground. I don't remember whether there is anything specially mentioned about the fishings. I think in the Burra tack there is something about them it gives us right to all the fishings in the island. I am not sure that the original proprietor had not a Crown charter which gave him a right to the whole fishings, including oyster fishings and others; and I think we have the whole of these rights.

3822. Perhaps you will show me these two tacks, so that I may make an excerpt of any clause relating to the fishings?-I will do so. There is no clause in either lease relating to the obligation of the tenants to deliver their fish to the tacksmen.

3823. You say in your statement 'We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and boys from all quarters during the summer months:' that refers to the home fishing?-To the home fishing solely.

3824. There are curing stations at places quite separate from any of the four properties you have been speaking of?-Yes.

3825. Where are they?-We have a curing station at Dunrossness; we have another station at Fetlar; and we cure to some extent at Scalloway, and also at Lerwick.

3826. At all of these stations have you shops from which you supply the men?-We have a shop at Scalloway, and another here. We have a factor at Fetlar, who supplies the fishermen with what they require; and we have a man at Dunrossness, who keeps supplies there also.

3827. At Dunrossness have you ever come into conflict with Mr. Bruce's people with regard to the sale of goods or the purchase of fish?-I think not.

3828. Is it understood there that you are to purchase from people who are not upon his lands?-We purchase from people who are not upon his lands, that is, from the Simbister or any other tenants, who are quite free.

3829. But not from the Sumburgh tenants?-They never offer us any of their fish, and we never ask them. We never interfere with Mr. Bruce's fishings.

3830. Do you ever purchase from the Quendale tenants?-No, I think not.

3831. You say fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they are secured in monthly wages, there is no inducement for exertion. That is with reference to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

3832. Do you form that opinion from your experience of both systems?-Yes, because on some occasions we have had to pay wages to the men; but that has been very seldom.

3833. I think in another part of your statement you say that, when an agreement to pay monthly wages has been made, the men sometimes, if the price has been high, have repudiated their bargain, and asked to be paid according to the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

3834. Has that happened often?-No; very seldom. The men generally prefer to go on shares. There have been one or two occasions when we had to guarantee them monthly wages in order to induce them to go out to the fishing, but at the same time, if their share of the fish exceeded that monthly wage, they got it.

3835. Is it your opinion that it would be a wholesome change if the men were paid by wages, or that it is better for both parties that things should remain as they are?-I don't think it would be a good change to pay them by wages.

3836. Would it not tend to form more provident and careful habits among the fishermen if they knew exactly how much they were to receive?-I think it would be very much against the fishings if such a system were adopted. The men would not get nearly so many fish, and they would not earn so much money, if they were paid by wages, as they do at present. Some of the men who are fishing at the haaf earn as much £15 or £20 as during the summer, and they would not get any one to pay them wages of that amount.

3837. How much would that be per month?-Perhaps about £5 per month. No one would engage them at that figure.

3838. In the home fishing the boats generally belong to the men?-I think, for the most part, they do.

3839. Is it a common practice for the fish-curer to advance the money for a boat, or to supply the boat to the men and receive payment from them by instalments?-It is generally the understanding, that if a crew get a new boat, they pay up for it in three years. In some cases they are able to pay up for it in one year when there is a good fishing. I may mention one case in Dunrossness, the year before last, where six mem came to us and wanted a boat and lines. We gave them the advance, fitted them out, and supplied their families during the season, and at the end of the season they had earned with that boat and lines £200. The agreement was, that they were to pay for the boat in one year if they could; and if not, they were to get credit for three years. They paid up for this boat and lines clear, and had money to get at the end of the season.

3840. When an arrangement of that sort is entered into, is a certain sum deducted from the men's earnings at the end of the year in respect of the boat?-There is an account kept for the boat. If they pay one-third share the first year, it is taken off as a whole, and not taken off each individual.

3841. They are jointly and severally liable for the price of the boat?-Yes; they have a company account. The boat is charged to that account; and when they settle, there are two-thirds carried down to the debit of each man, and the rest is paid up.

3842. Then, in every case of that kind, there is a boat account separate from the accounts of the individual members of the crew?-Yes.

3843. And if any of the men have gone away from the country, or have got deep in debt before the boat is paid up, the other members of the crew remain liable for the whole amount?-They are liable in point of law, but it is very seldom they pay anything beyond their own share.

3844. When that comes to be paid out of the share of a man who has an individual account, is his share of what remains due on the boat generally entered to his debit in his own account each year?- No, not separately. We keep an account against the boat and the crew, and we give them credit for the whole of their fish when we come to settle with them. Then we take off one-third the price of the boat, along with the cost of any other supplies they may have had in company, and divide the balance and enter it to each separate man's credit, leaving two-thirds of the price of the boat at the debit of the boat account.

3845. The balance that remains in favour of the men after that comes into their separate accounts?-Yes.

3846. So that the boat account has a priority in the settlement over the individual accounts of the men?-Yes.

3847. Where such a boat account exists, is it the case that the individual men are generally, or always, dealing at the shop of the merchant who advances the boat?-I cannot say. The men are at liberty to deal where they like. Getting an advance of a boat does not compel them to take their supplies from the same merchant.

3848. But is there any understanding or practice according to which the men do deal at the merchant's shop?-I cannot say. The men that we deal with are at liberty to take their supplies either from us or from any other shop in the country.

3849. Are your shopkeepers allowed to make any intimation to the men that they are expected to deal at your shop?-They are never told to do so, and they never do it, so far as I am aware.

3850. Would they be checked or reprimanded if they did it?-We never had occasion to reprimand them, because we never said a word about it ourselves. Our shopkeepers never did it by our orders, and I don't think they ever did it of their own accord.

[Page 93]

3851. In agreeing to open a boat account with men in that way, is any preference given to men who deal at your shops, or who undertake to deal there? Would you more readily agree to open an account with such men than with others who did not deal with you?-That is never taken into consideration at all.

3852. But when a boat account is opened, are they always expected to deliver their fish to you until it is paid off?-That is always part of the understanding, that they shall fish to us as long as they're due a balance on the boat.

3853. And when the balance is paid, then they are free?-Yes; they are at liberty to renew the agreement with us, or to go anywhere else they like.

3854. Do you find that, at the end of the period when the balance is paid off, the men are generally ready to continue to fish for you?-Sometimes they fish for us, and sometimes they shift and go to another curer.

3855. There is no general rule about that?-No.

3856. You say in your statement, that the men are quite safe with the arrangement to get the current price at the end of the season for their fish: 'They know the competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that they are secured to get the highest possible, price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to themselves, and the end come to grief:' is that a common thing in the islands?-It is not common, but it does happen occasionally.

3857. Has that any connection with a statement which was made in the evidence given in Edinburgh, about the necessity which a merchant was under, to have a large amount of bad debts in order to succeed in business?-I daresay it has.

3858. I suppose that refers to the same sort of dealers men with limited capital, who push their business by giving the fishermen an advantage in that way, and who were said to come to grief from having too few bad debts?-Yes.

3859. Do you suppose the gentleman who gave evidence to that effect, and which you have criticised in another part of your statement, was referring to the same cases that you are there referring to?-I am not referring to any particular case in that statement. It is only afterwards that I mention evidence. In this case, I say that a man with small capital who gives too large advances to the fishermen, which they cannot repay, is very likely to be unable to pay his own creditors.

3860. When you speak of him giving too large advance, do you mean in the shape of supplies of going out of his shop?-Yes; and giving too many gratuities to the fishermen, so that they have all the profit, and he has none.

3861. What do you mean by gratuities to fishermen?-Fees, and other inducements to fish, besides the regular current price.

3862. Is that both in the home and Faroe fishing?-Not in the Faroe fishing. I refer to the home fishing only.

3863. Then in the home fishing there is sometimes an arrangement to give fees to the fishermen in addition to the current price?- Yes. For instance, the skipper of a boat, being the most experienced man of the crew, generally gets a small fee; and there are other gratuities paid, which differ at different stations.

3864. These gratuities are given in order to secure the fish of a large number of fishermen?-Yes.

3865. Have you cases in your mind at present, which these gratuities, and the excessive advances in goods, have led to the failure of people entering into the trade for the first time?-In making this statement I had particular cases before my mind; but such do happen occasionally through the islands.

3866. You don't think the existence of such cases inconsistent with your denial of Mr. Walker's statement with regard to bad debts?-I have referred to his statement on that subject, simply for the purpose of pointing out the absurdity of it.

3867. Of course if you speak of the debts as being absolutely bad debts, the statement is absurd, as you point out but suppose that a man starting business in Shetland gets a number of fishermen into his debt to a certain amount, has he not a hold, over these fishermen, so as to compel them to deliver their fish to him in future?-He has no hold over them whatever for that purpose. He has just this hold over them that if he chooses, he can go into the court with them and prosecute them; but after they have fished to him for some time, and find that they can get no further supplies from him, they are very likely to go away and offer their services to some one else.

3868. But suppose that at the end of the season a merchant has 100 fishermen who are in debt to him to the extent of £2 or £3 or £4, and whom he can prosecute at once for recovery of that money, do you think the fishermen have no inducement to continue to deliver their fish to him, rather than allow him to prosecute?-It may induce some of them to do so, but some of them may be frightened and leave him, in case he were to prosecute them. We generally find that when a man gets into debt, to us, we never see him again.

3869. Do you mean in debt to that extent, or to larger extent?- When he gets into our debt to the extent of £6 or £8, he very soon leaves us, and we never see him again. In many cases they know very well that the prosecutor might have to pay the law expenses and would get no return.

3870. May that not arise from the fact that you deal more leniently with your debtors than other merchants?-I don't think we do. I think other merchants carry on their businesses on much the same principles as ourselves.

3871. Does it not strike you that the statement you are contradicting about the value of bad debts to a Shetland business, although it might be exaggerated in the terms which it is put, has nevertheless a certain amount of truth in it?-I know quite well, that if a man with small capital lays out that capital in buying goods to supply fishermen, and delivers these goods to the fishermen, and then has to pay for the goods and has nothing to pay them with, he must shut his shop and become bankrupt.

3872. But if he has sufficient money to carry on for a little,-or if he gets his bills renewed for a certain time, and manages to get the fishermen bound to him by the fact that they are in his debt, and by the fear of being prosecuted for that debt,-may he not have a very good season next year, and be able to get a large supply of fish, which he can sell at a profit, and so gradually make his way?- Fish are not like ready money. You may have a pretty large number of men fishing to you, but you cannot convert their fish into money until perhaps the end of twelve months. You only get your fish sold once a year, and you won't get any person in the south to give you goods on credit for twelve months. Besides, a fish-curer must always have a certain amount of debts standing in his books against fishermen, and stock which he cannot make available.

3873. Do you mean shop goods?-Yes, he must have shop goods, and he must have debts in his books to a pretty large amount before he can carry on extensively.

3874. I am assuming always that the man, although his capital may be limited, has a certain amount of capital which will carry him on for a couple of years?-Well, then the end would be sure to come.

3875. But he may manage to make a good business, and to carry it on successfully; if he gets a certain number of fishermen under an obligation to fish for him; or if he can induce them by offering premiums and gratuities to fish for him rather than for others,- can he not?-But in the meantime he is giving them supplies; and while they may have got into his debt to the extent of £5 or £6 each man this year, on the understanding [Page 94] that they are to fish to him next year and pay off their debt, yet when he comes to settle with him he may find that they have not only not paid up their old debt, but that there is something more added to it, as he has been giving them supplies all the time.

3876. But, in a case of that sort the fish-merchant will probably try to keep the supplies which he gives to his people down to as low a point as possible; and if the season has been a good one for agricultural produce, they may not require very extensive supplies in the second season?-Perhaps so; but generally men who have got into debt the first year, require supplies afterwards; and if you stop the supplies at any time after the fishing has begun, the man stops work, and when one man in a boat's crew stops work it throws the whole idle.

3877. Therefore you think the fact of men getting into your debt has no effect in securing their services as fishermen to you for the future?-No. It is a certain way of throwing away money, and getting rid of their services.

3878. Have you had any experience as to the mode of settling with men who go to the herring fishing?-Yes.

3879. Is your firm engaged in that fishery?-It has been quite a failure here for the last two or three years.

3880. What is the mode of dealing with the fishermen there? Is it the same system that is pursued at Wick?-The herring fishing here, for the most part, is carried on in the same small open boats as are used at the haaf. At Wick they have large boats for the purpose. Here each man has a certain number of nets of his own, and they use their own boats and nets.

3881. When is the bargain made about the division of the produce; or are the men engaged upon wages?-For the past few years the herring fishing here has been so trifling, that scarcely any person took the trouble to make a bargain with the men about it. If they caught any herrings and delivered them, they generally made a bargain for them about the time they commenced.

3882. Were they to get so much per cran?-Yes.

3883. Is that the same practice that is followed at Wick?-The same practice, I think. At Uyea Sound I think there were as many as sixty small boats that went to that fishing; but for the last two or three years they have not cured a single cran of herrings, so that the thing was not worth our attention.

3884. Are you aware what the general arrangement between the fishermen and the curer in the herring fishing is-I don't speak of Shetland alone, but at other places?-I understand the boats and nets at Wick and other places belong to the fishermen; but the men there are largely indebted to the fish-curers, who have to make large advances to them before they can carry on the fishing.

3885. But the bargain made at the beginning of the season is for a price per cran?-Yes.

3886. And that is due when?-It is not settled, believe, until the end of the fishing.

3887. But the price is fixed at the beginning?-Yes.

3888. Would not that be a more advantageous arrangement for all parties in the home fishing or in the Faroe fishing than that which at present exists?-I don't think the fishermen here would agree to it. We have on several occasions made an agreement with individuals of both descriptions of crews, at the beginning of the season, to give them a certain price for their fish; and if it happened, as it frequently does, that the price rose towards the end of the season, we had, when we came to settle with them, to pay them at the increased price.

3889. You have already mentioned that; but, assuming that the fishermen would agree to it,-and I have no doubt you could compel them to agree to it if there was a bargain to that effect,- would it not be a more reasonable and wholesome arrangement altogether for both parties?-We would certainly be willing to agree to it, and I think the other fish-curers would, and take their chance.

3890. In that case you would take your chance of rise or fall in the market?-Yes.

3891. And there would be none of the fishermen but what would have some idea, as the season went on, of how much his earnings would be?-So they would; but if our fishermen had made such an arrangement, and they came to know that other men were getting higher price from other curers at the end of the season, it would make our men dissatisfied, and we would have to throw our agreement aside. If we did not do that, our men would leave us, and not fish for us another year.

3892. Do you mean that that arrangement could not be entered into by any individual fish-curer unless there was a general arrangement to do so among the curers in the islands?-Yes; the whole of the curers would require to agree to it.

3893. But, would it not be more advantageous all parties, on the whole? I think you say that in your opinion it would be?-We would be very well pleased to have a fixed agreement at the beginning of the season, and very well pleased also to pay the men altogether in cash when we settled with them. In that way we would keep clear of bad debts.

3894. Would not such an arrangement obviate the objection you have to a change on the ground that the fisherman's exertions would be less if he had no inducement to work,-because, if that arrangement were carried out, the fisherman would be induced to use all his exertions in order to get as large a take of fish as possible?-He has the same inducement now.

3895. That is so; but at present he does not know until the end of the season how much he is to get for his fishing during the year?- They are generally satisfied that they will get the full value of the article.

3896. But the policy of the Legislature in some other departments seems to be, that the working man shall know week by week how much his earnings are, and how much he is spending upon goods: could not that be done here?-No; it is impossible here, because one week, or one fortnight, or perhaps three weeks, may elapse in the summer when a man does not earn one sixpence.

3897. But if there was some system of paying fixed price of so much per cran or so much per cwt. for fish delivered, the fisherman would be able to calculate more nearly what his income was going to be during the year than he is now, and be able to regulate his expenditure accordingly?-The price of fish has varied very little for many years, and a fisherman can know pretty nearly what he is earning. The following is a statement of the prices that have been paid for the last six years; from which you will see that the variation has been extremely small.

PRICES of Fresh Fish paid at Burra, compared with the Rates paid at other Stations in Shetland, for six years, 1865 to 1870 inclusive.

YEAR BURRA ISLANDS OTHER PLACES Spring Summer Summer Ling Cod Ling Cod Ling Cod s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. 1865 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 6 6 6 1866 8 0 7 6 8 0 7 6 8 6 7 6 1867 6 0 7 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 1868 6 0 6 6 6 6 5 0 6 6 5 0 1869 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 1870 7 0 6 6 7 3 6 0 7 3 6 0

3898. Then, upon the whole of that matter we have been speaking of, you don't think the introduction of a system similar to that which prevails in the Wick herring fishing would be beneficial either to the one side or the other, although you would be willing to adopt it?-We would be quite ready to adopt it.

[Page 95]

3899. But, as a matter of opinion, you don't think it would be advantageous?-As far as my own opinion goes, I do not think it would be in any way advantageous either to the fish-curers or to the fishermen.

3900. You have a few sentences in your statement with regard to the hosiery trade, in which you say you don't believe it would pay the expenses and servants wages: is that your opinion?-Yes; if we were to buy for ready money.

3901. What is your reason for forming that opinion?-The people get so much higher prices for their articles when they take goods, that we could not buy for ready money and compete with the people in the trade.

3902. Do you deal in the same goods as those merchants who deal in hosiery?-Yes, to a certain extent, but not to such a large extent as them. They keep goods for the purpose of exchanging for hosiery, while we only keep some for supplying the fishermen.

3903. Are you in a position to say whether your prices for tea and soft goods are higher or lower than the prices of the persons who purchase hosiery?-I think tea and groceries and other things, sell for very much the same all over town.

3904. Is it the same thing with soft goods and cotton?-Yes, I think they are very much the same.

3905. If hosiery were paid for in cash, do you not think the people might come to your shop and buy goods to greater advantage than they get them for at present?-I suppose they would go to any place in town where they got the goods best and cheapest. I have said in my statement, we would be quite ready to buy the hosiery ourselves for cash; but I believe we would get a very small portion of the trade, because, when the people were getting perhaps 1s. in cotton or in other things for an article, we could not afford to give them any more than 9d. or 10d. in cash, and therefore they would not come to us.

3906. But suppose they were to get 9d. or 10d. in cash, would they not be able to buy their cotton goods to greater advantage?-I don't think it. They could not go to the hosiers' shops and buy cotton goods marked at 1s. for anything less than that. They might perhaps get a small discount, but it would be very little.

3907. Does it not appear to you that the practice of paying in kind must raise the prices of the goods that are so given in exchange for hosiery?-There are a great many people both here and throughout the country engaged in the trade; and when the girls have articles to sell, I suppose they find out the shops where they can make the best bargain, and go there, so that there is competition amongst the hosiery merchants as well as in other trades.

3908. Do you think it is the case that the profit charged upon drapery goods in Lerwick is greater than it is in other places, in consequence of the practice of purchasing hosiery with goods?-I am unable to give an opinion upon that, because I cannot say what are the profits upon goods elsewhere; but I believe the difference between our prices and the prices charged by the hosiers for the same class of goods would be found to be very little if it was examined into.

3909. You are not aware that you sell cheaper, than the merchants who purchase hosiery?-I don't think we sell very much cheaper than they do.

3910. Do you think you sell any cheaper?-Not very much.

3911. Did the obligation which was entered into eight years ago by the Burra men refer to the home fishing only, or was there any obligation in it with regard to the Faroe fishing too?-I think it referred to the home fishing chiefly.

3912. And not to the Faroe fishing?-It speaks for itself.

3913. Can you show it to me?-I think I can. I have not seen it for several years, but it must be somewhere in the office. If I can get it, I will be ready to show it.

3914. Is it not the case that the supply of men for the Faroe fishing is now generally sufficient without any such obligation, and that sometimes there is an excess in the supply of men who are willing to go to that fishing?-No; on the contrary, the men are very scarce and it is difficult to get the smacks manned up. I question very much whether we shall be able to get them all manned up this year.

3915. What is the cause of their reluctance to go to that fishing?- They made a bad fishing last year, and they are very unwilling to go again.

3916. Did the liberty money or fines which were imposed in Burra apply at all to tenants refusing to go to the Faroe fishing?-I think not. These fines were imposed with the view of getting the sons to assist their parents who were in debt, and to enable them to pay their rents, by making their earnings come through our hands. When the people went elsewhere, their earnings did not come through our hands, and we had not that check upon them.

3917. Are you quite certain the fines had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing at all?-It is many years since that I can scarcely say, and the Faroe fishing has not been carried on for many years. Perhaps that attempt was made by us about the time when the Faroe fishing commenced; but it was with the view of keeping the sons at home, and to enable their fathers to remain in the islands and to pay their rents, because the sons usually went away in summer, and remained a burden on their parents during the winter.

3918. Do you remember whether at any time there was a proposal on the part of the Burra islanders to rent the island from the landlord directly?-I heard there was such a proposal.

3919. In what form was the proposal made?-It never came through my hands; but I understand the men wrote to Mr. Mack, in Edinburgh, who acted for the proprietors, offering him a higher rent than we had paid before.

3920. How long ago was that?-I could not condescend on the number of years. It was about the time that our tack was out.

3921. That would be about the time when the obligation you spoke of was suggested or entered into?-I think it was perhaps about the same time.

3922. That offer was refused?-Yes. Mr. Mack knew very well, that while some of the tenants would pay their rent punctually, others, when left to themselves, would have nothing to pay it with when the rent time came round, and of course he would not treat with them. He thought it better to get a fixed sum, payable half-yearly, which the tenants could not guarantee him. The rent of Burra is paid by us half-yearly, one half at Whitsunday and the other half at Martinmas; while the tenants, of course, if they were left at liberty, would only pay once a year.

3923. Is it the usual practice in Shetland to pay rent only once a year?-Yes; to pay it at Martinmas,

3924. That arises from the fact that the tenants generally depend upon the produce of their fishing for the money with which to pay their rent?-Yes; they realize their earnings about that time.

3925. Is it the case that the inducement to your firm to lease Burra in the way you have explained, was mainly for securing to yourselves the service of the fishermen?-We had had a lease of Burra for a very long time, and had transactions with the people all along, and they were due us a very considerable sum. They are not due us so much now, but at that time they were due us a very heavy sum; and if we had given up the tack, much of that money would have been lost. That was one inducement to us to renew our lease.

3926. But did you expect to recoup yourselves merely by the rent payable by the fishermen, or by their being obliged to fish for you?-By their being able to pay their debts through the fishing.

3927. In other words, they would not have been so likely to have continued to fish for you if you had not remained the tacksmen?- If we had not remained the tacksmen, the island would have been let on tack to some one else, and they would have taken our place.

3928. Do you mean that a lease would probably have [Page 96] been given to some other fish-merchant?-Yes; there is no inducement to any one else to take a tack of Burra.

3929. Is that because it is the general practice in Shetland for the landlord or the tacksman to be entitled to receive the fish?-No; but the tack-duty of Burra is so near the gross rental, that there would be no inducement to a person to take the island on tack, and to collect the rents and pay them over to the proprietor.

3930. You say that very few people in Burra engage in the home fishing now?-Yes; comparatively few.

3931. So that the Burra islands cannot be so profitable an investment for your firm as formerly?-It is not.

3932. Does the gross rental from it exceed the tack-duty by any considerable sum?-No; only by a very small sum.

3933. How much?-Unless I had the rental here, I could not speak definitely; but I could show you the gross rental of Burra, and I can tell you the tack-duty afterwards.

3934. Can you do the same with regard to Gossaburgh?-Yes.

3935. Is there any practice in the home fishing of selling the smaller fish without passing them through the books; that is, the small fish caught near the shore at Scalloway, or elsewhere on the coast?-There are haddocks and small fish caught there; and through the winter the men just take them into Scalloway every day as they catch them, and sell them for goods or money as they choose.

3936. These transactions don't pass through your books?-No; we don't see what fish of that kind have been purchased, except from the factor's book at the end of the year. We then see how much fish he has purchased from all quarters.

3937. The factor purchases these fish, and pays for them in such goods as the men may want at the time?-Yes; on the spot.

3938. These are separate transactions, and are settled at once?- Yes.

3939. In that case, is the price for the fish higher or lower than in any of your other dealings with the fishermen?-I think that, within the last few years it has generally been less, where they settled at once, than it came to be at the end of the season, when we came to arrange the men's accounts.

3940. How does that happen?-Because generally at the end of the season the price comes up, and people buying fish on chance are not inclined to give the same price for them which they would give at the end of the season, when they know what they are worth. If we buy fish from the men just now, we cannot tell what they will realize in summer, when they are dry and sent to market.

3941. Then, if the fish-merchant were to pay for all his fish as they were delivered, would that have a tendency to make him more cautious about giving a high price to his fishermen?-I think it would.

3942. Do you think that men curing their own fish would be at a great disadvantage as compared with large curers?-I think they would, because they have no means for curing.

3943. You are aware, I suppose, that that is one of the statements made by the fishermen, when they come forward with complaints about the existing system: that they want to have liberty to cure their own fish, and dispose of them in the market as they please?- I have heard so. For some time, in Dunrossness, the men did cure their own fish, but they never could make them in a marketable state. They were always objectionable, and they never could bring so high a price in the market as fish prepared by regular curers. If each boat's crew were to cure their own fish, they would be at a great disadvantage, because they have not the means of curing them properly: they have no vats, no covers, no mats, and no qualified curers for the purpose. They would likely employ children for that purpose, and members of their own family.

3944. When the men cure their own fish, how is that generally done?-I suppose they cure them in turns, and turn them out on the beach until they are dried. They are often very insufficiently salted, or over-salted; and when they are dry, they are not fit for the market.

3945. In your operations you have a complete apparatus for the purpose?-Yes; and we require qualified men-people who understand the process of curing-to attend to them.

3946. Therefore, in your opinion, a fisherman curing his own fish would realize a much less price for them than you could give him?-Yes; and very often they would be altogether in an unmerchantable state.

3947. You are still factor on the Simbister estate?-Yes.

3948. Part of that estate, in the neighbourhood of Channerwick, was at one time let to Robert Mouat?-Yes.

3949. I believe he had right under his lease to receive delivery of all the fish caught by the tenants?-No. The lease expressly states, that if the fishermen deliver their fish to him, he is bound to pay them the current price of the country. The expression is, 'If the fishermen deliver them;' that is all that is said about it.

3950. Is the lease in your hands?-Yes.

3951. You will show it to me, in order that I may take an excerpt of that clause?-Yes.

3952. Do you remember the case of a John Leask, a fisherman at Channerwick, whom Mouat had threatened to turn out of his farm, and who came to you some time about March 1870 in consequence of that threat?-I don't remember that. I don't know the man; but it is possible he may have come to me. There were two or three of them who come to me complaining about their treatment by Mouat. I showed them the clause in the tack, and told them that if they fished to him he was bound to pay them the current price of the country, but that I saw nothing in the tack to compel them to deliver their fish to him.

3953. Were you aware that for many years previously the tenants in that district had been under the idea that they were bound to fish for the tacksman?-I had no concern with it before I got the factorship, three years ago. It is only three years since I was appointed factor.

3954. Who was your predecessor?-Mr. Bruce generally settled with the tenants himself, or Mr. Spence.

3955. Is it consistent with your own knowledge that there was such an understanding upon that part of the Simbister estate?-The men told me that Mouat insisted on getting their fish; that is all I know about it.

3956. You don't know of it yourself, except from these applications which were made to you by the men?-No; I had nothing to do with Mouat or his tack previously.

3957. Did you communicate with Mouat in consequence of the statements the fishermen made to you?-I don't remember that I communicated with him in writing, but I may have told him that the men were complaining about being forced to fish to him.

3958. Did you also tell him that he was not entitled to require them to fish to him?-It is quite possible I told him that, but I had very few conversations with him on the subject.

3959. If there was such an understanding among the men, I suppose it would be naturally enough accounted for by the fact that in former times such obligations were usual or universal in Shetland?-Perhaps it would be.

3960. I presume such obligations were universal formerly?-I think that formerly more of the proprietors cured their own fish than is the case now.

3961. But in the old times it was part of the tenant's duty to deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes.

3962. And I fancy, that although you say fishermen are generally free, yet any complaints that are made about them being bound arise from the remains of that old system still prevailing?- Perhaps so.

3963. There is no doubt that there was such an understanding and such an obligation formerly?-No.

3964. And in one or two cases there is such an obligation still?- Yes; but I think there are very few of the proprietors now who have any personal concern [Page 97] with their fishings. I think there are only two or three of them.

3965. Is Mr Bruce of Sumburgh one of the parties to whom you refer?-Yes.

3966. Does he purchase fish from the tenants on his estate?-He purchases fish over all. I suppose the free men can come to him and offer their fish as well as his own tenants.

3967. Does any other proprietor in Shetland deal in fish in the same way?-I think Mr. Grierson takes some part of his tenants' fish, but only a part.

3968. Are there any others?-I think in Unst, although the proprietors are not actually fish-curers, yet their tenants fish to parties whom they appoint.,

3969. Do you refer to Major Cameron?-Yes; and Edmonstone too. Spence & Co. are the principal fish-curers in Unst. They are lessees of Major Cameron's property, and, I think they receive fish from Mr. Edmonstone's tenants also.

. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the fishings?-With reference to Burra, some years ago there was a letter written to Mr. Mack, Edinburgh, who had the management of the property for the Misses Scott, and a copy of it was sent to us without a signature. It was a letter remarking, very strongly on the management of Burra at the time; and as there may be something said about it, I think it better to read it-

'COPY LETTER to Mr. Mack, dated the 5th April 1869.

'James S. Mack, Esq.

'MY DEAR SIR,-Having had occasion to visit Burra officially a few days ago, it was suggested to me to bring under your notice some of those grievances of which the people complain, so that on any renewal of the lease of the Islands taking place, you might be able stipulate more advantageously for the poor people.

'From the statements submitted to me, it would appear-

'1st, That every householder is bound to pay one pound sterling annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing smack not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea Company, otherwise he must remove from the island or expel any such son from his home.

'2d, That every tenant is bound to uphold, at his own expense, his house and offices, and whenever required to remove, to leave them in a state of good repair without any indemnification.

'3d, That every fisherman is bound to deliver his fishings to the lessees at such a price as they may be disposed to give. While the price given is never <less> than one shilling per hundredweight <below> the average paid for green fish in the Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per cran below the market price is a common thing.

'4th, That all oysters dredged must be delivered to the lessees at Scalloway, under the penalty of expulsion; from house and land; while the price paid in <goods> is one shilling per hundred, other merchants paying in money <two shillings and sixpence> per hundred. To evade this obligation a regular system of deception is practised most offensive to the moral sense, and, as a consequence, few of the oysters go into the hands of the lessees.

'5th, And that every person on the Islands is bound not to sell any article to a neighbour, under the penalty of instant expulsion from the island. If, for example, you were living on the isle, any fisherman who sold you a tusk or cod incurred the penalty of expulsion. And as the system of barter is common in Shetland, if any woman got in exchange for her hosiery tea or sugar or meal from any merchant-as the lessees purchase no hosiery-she exposes her family to the loss of house and land and expulsion from the island if she is known to sell any of the goods she has received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour, however needful or anxious such neighbour may be to purchase for money the article thus obtained.

'These, as represented to me, form some of the grounds of complaint against the system adopted and enforced by the lessees, and, as grievances, they are felt all the more keenly because of the perfect contrast which is found to exist between the Burra people and surrounding Islanders.

'In Trondra, under the hands of your lessees as factors, the people can sell their labour and their goods to any buyer, so being they pay the stipulated rent.

'In Hildesay, Luija, and Havera the tenants fish, cure, and sell to the proprietor or others at the average price of the county, paying their rents in money.

'The natural result of all this is the production of a feeling of bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants under them.

'Not only are the obligations under which the Burra people bend, introducing discord into families, restraining the energies of the fishermen, and tending to a deeply rooted aversion towards the lessees and their service, but producing systems of chicanery and deceit subversive of moral principle and destructive of all efforts in the proper training of the young.

'Having had these matters forced upon my attention, I am constrained to yield to the pressure, and submit them to your consideration-notwithstanding my great personal respect for the lessees-as requested, and that, in the hope that if you can now or hereafter mitigate the evil under which the tenants groan, in connection with the renewal of the lease, should such be contemplated, you will cordially do so, and thus confer upon them a lasting benefit.

'Before closing, I may add that a suggestion was made to submit the case to the consideration of the Fishery Board; but, as the constitution and functions of that board are unknown to me, I have deferred until obtaining any suggestion you may be pleased to make for the future guidance of the poor people who, through me, now solicit your sympathy and aid.

'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential communication may receive your kind consideration, while any suggestion you may make for the improvement of the circumstances of the people will be cordially welcomed by.'

That letter was sent to us to report upon, and we made some notes on it at the time, which I may read also-

'NOTES on a Letter of Complaint addressed to, Mr. Mack, S.S.C., Edinburgh, dated 5th April 1869, as to the Management of the Burra Islands under the present Tack.

'The writer of this letter, if he is stating honestly the reports that he has heard on his visits to Burra, seems to have considered it quite unnecessary to inquire whether they were true or false before committing them to paper; and apparently from a desire to make out a case of oppression, he has been ready to receive all that could help to it without separating the chaff from the wheat.

'The first head is, that every tenant is bound to pay £1 per annum for their sons who do not fish in vessels belonging to the tacksmen, or those of the Fishery Company under their management. In answer to this, it always been felt a great hardship to pay rent year after year for old men who were deeply indebted and earning little or nothing, but who had grown-up sons living, at home in idleness all winter and going out of the Islands to fish to strangers in summer. In order to get them to assist their parents, intimation was given at the commencement of the tack that such a charge would be made; but the result is, nothing has been recovered from them, and several of the Lerwick fishing vessels are manned up year after year with the best fishermen in Burra, and their fathers remain hopelessly in debt. Perhaps Mr Mack's correspondent would say, rather than impose such a condition on the young men, we should roup up their fathers and turn them out of the Islands as paupers, when the sons would be compelled by law to assist them?

'The second charge is, that the tenants are bound to uphold their houses at their own expense. This complaint, unlike the others, is quite correct, but the obligation is not felt by the tenants to be very oppressive. [Page 98] Had the proprietors to pay the expense the case would be different, and this, added to the public burdens, would pretty well exhaust the whole rents. Such things, however, are never considered by would-be philanthropists; and if matters are made easy for the tenants, landlords may starve. Burra is not the only place in Shetland, or out of it, where tenants are bound to uphold their own houses.

'Third, The tenants hold their farms on the express condition that they shall deliver their fish to the factors; but it is quite untrue that the price allowed 'is never <less> than one shilling per hundredweight below the average price paid for green fish in the Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per cran below the market price is a common thing.' It is so far from the truth as scarcely to be worth denial; and if the author of this statement had been desirous to get at facts, he could without difficulty have discovered that his informant, was practising a deception on him, and that the Burra people had not this evil to groan under.

'The lessees have no hesitation in referring to the tenants, themselves and to all other parties in the locality to whom the circumstances are known. (See annexed note of the prices paid in Burra and throughout Shetland for the last four years.) As to the obligation on the tenants to deliver their fish to the factors-if they were free to cure and sell as they chose, who would advance them, with boats and fishing materials, and support their families during the progress of the fishing? and would the proprietors get the rents paid half-yearly as at present? or would they not rather find the principal part of it standing as arrears in their books at the end of the first year of freedom? And in the event of a short fishing or bad crop (both frequent occurrences), without any one to assist them till the return of better seasons, is it not evident, at least to those who know about tenants in fishing districts, that the Burra people would soon be little better than paupers?

'Take the last year as an instance, when the heavy debt due by the tenants to the lessees was increased upwards of £200.

'Mr. Mack's correspondent should suggest a remedy for all these evils, to be inserted in the next lease; or, as he seems to hint that the Fishery Board may be induced to interfere and make things straight now, it might be well to place the Islands under his management for a year or two by way of trial. The lessees could have no objections if the balances due to them were paid.

'The oyster fishing is the fourth grievance, and the statements in it are as little in accordance with facts as the rest. A few years ago, when oysters came to be asked after for export, the scaaps in Burra being of limited extent, an attempt was made to preserve them for old men and others in the quarter who were unable to prosecute the spring fishings; but in the course of a year or two people came from Scalloway and other places and carried them away in boat-loads. Seeing this, the factors told the Burra folks as far as possible to secure the oysters for themselves, and they have since been selling them in large quantities here and there without let or hindrance, and it is said the supply is now about exhausted. The tack conveys right to the whole fishings of the islands; and had the matter been of any importance, the lessees might have interdicted strangers, and limited the fishing for the benefit of the tenants as first intended; but this cause of offence seems to be set at rest now for the remainder of the lease.

'The fifth statement appears to be, that people living in the Islands, not fishing themselves (suppose ministers or the schoolmasters, as these are the only parties in the Islands no way connected with the fishings), cannot get fish to purchase for their own use. This is quite absurd; no such restriction was ever heard of or imagined, either by proprietors; tacksmen, or tenants.

'And next, as to tea sellers, had not the Excise interfered to put down the practice, every other house in Burra would have been a shop in a small way to sell, not only tea, but other goods of a less harmless description that had not always passed through a custom-house. The tacksmen plead guilty to using their best endeavours to assist in shutting up these shops, but they deny that they have ever interfered with the Burra people directly or indirectly in the sale of their cattle, hosiery, or produce of any kind, except fish. Nor have they ever placed a shop in the Islands for sake of the tenants custom, as they might have done, but left them free to sell such produce and obtain their supplies where they liked.

'Trondra is referred to as a free island; but does Mr. Mack's correspondent suppose the people are in better circumstances on that account? And is he aware of the amount of arrears due to the landlord? the tenants' earnings, in most cases, being spent as fast as they are made. If the tenants in the other islands mentioned are free also, it is not generally understood to be the case, and it happens at this very time two tenants from these <free> islands have taken farms, and are about to remove to the land of bondage-Burra.'

3971. Is it the case that no other shop than yours is allowed in Burra?-Yes.

3972. You say that if shops were allowed there, every other house would be used as a shop, and every person would set up for selling tea and other goods?-Yes. What I referred to there was, that the Burra people were in the habit of bringing home a quantity of uncustomed goods from Faroe, and going round the country and selling them elsewhere. We set our face against that, and endeavoured to put it down.

3973. Has there been a tendency to that in the Faroe fishing?-Not lately; because some of the people were severely punished for it.

3974. But formerly there was a tendency that way?-At first there was a good deal done in that way, but now I don't think there is anything.

3975. You are not aware whether there is any smuggling in the Shetland Islands at present?-Two or three years ago, there were some of the crews severely punished for that, and I don't think there is any smuggling going on now.

3976. That was one of your reasons for prohibiting shops in Burra?-Yes, it was one reason.

3977. But the effect of that prohibition is that the people have to go to Scalloway for goods?-They can go out of the island and get their goods where they like.

3978. Have you information at present from which you are able to state what proportion of the Burra islanders keep accounts with your shop in Scalloway?-Not at present. Their names may be in the books, but they may get very small supplies from us, and they can get supplies from other people as well.

3979. There are other shops in Scalloway?-Yes; there are several other shops there, and the men may take some goods from us and some from others.

3980. You say that now the oyster-beds there are really exhausted?-Yes. Oysters were got in pretty large quantities in Burra for a number of years, but now they are exhausted; they were taken up in such quantities and sent away.

3981. Are there any oysters got at Scalloway?-Very few. You can get a hundred or half a hundred occasionally.

3982. Are the men bound to deliver to your firm what oysters they take up?-No; they have not been doing it.

3983. Then they are free to dispose of the oysters to any person they like?-They are free to dispose of them, but there are so few to get now that it is no object to go in for that.

3984. Have there been no disputes about oysters there?-Not that I know of. The Scalloway people carried away a great many oysters from Burra.

3985. You have prepared a note showing the number of families in Burra, and also the total sums paid in cash to your fishermen at settlement at your other stations besides Whalsay?-Yes. The number of families in Burra is 108. There are 318 males on the island, and 867 females-in all 685. I may mention also that [Page 99] of the Burra men who go to the fishing, in summer in smacks, 19 went in vessels belonging to Hay & Co., and 73, in vessels belonging to other owners. The cash paid to fishermen at settlement at other stations besides Whalsay was as follows 1870, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . £138 19 3 " Dunrossness . . 521 13 111/2 " North Roe . . 539 9 01/2 1871, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . 310 6 61/2 " Dunrossness . . 395 19 3 " North Roe . . 757 17 01/2

In the statement which I gave in, I stated that the arrears of land-rent due on the Simbister estate were £57; but since the statement was prepared, that sum has been lessened by £8, which has been paid.

3986. Do you pay your balances to the Whalsay men by cheques on the Union Bank?-Not altogether. To some extent we pay them in notes and gold and silver.

3987. In 1870, you gave cheques to the amount of in sums of £5 and upwards?-Yes.

3988. Below that sum they would be paid in cash?-Yes. In the past year I gave cheques to the amount of £465.

3989. Some of these men, I suppose, would leave their money at the bank?-I daresay they did.

3990. Is there anything else that occurs to you to state with regard to the fishings?-Nothing.

3991. You are now out of the trade of engaging men for the Greenland whale fishery?-We are just about out of it.

3992. You have intimated to your correspondents in the south that you are not to act for them any longer in that matter?-Yes.

3993. Your commission there was 21/2 per cent. upon the wages and oil-money of each man, and that commission was paid to you by the shipowners?-Yes.

3994. Do you consider that that was an inadequate remuneration for the trouble you had with the men?-Yes. It was not only an inadequate remuneration, but we were supposed to be taking advantage of the men in settling with them, and that has led us to give up the agency. It was thought that we did not actually settle with them in cash, but that we gave them goods for their wages

3995. You have added to your written statement on this subject an abstract of your dealings for the last three years with the men engaged in some of these whaling vessels, which shows that during that period the average amount of wages and oil-money paid annually to each man was £11, 13s. 6d.; the supplies given to the man before sailing and to his family during his absence were on an average £1, 7s. 2d-leaving a balance of £10, 6s. 4d, which was paid in cash?-Yes. That balance was actually paid to the men in cash, in presence of the marine superintendent, by one of our clerks. Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the report made by Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade on this subject, which was communicated to the previous Commissioners on Truck, and which is printed in the appendix to their report.

3996. Have you any explanation to make with regard to that report?-The only explanation I have to make is to contradict publicly the whole statements contained in it; and I hope the result of your examination here will prove to the author of report, and to others, that they should not hastily jump at conclusions, and condemn people unheard.

3997. Do you contradict the whole of the statements in that report, without exception?-Yes, I contradict them publicly, and I say that, they are not in accordance with the facts.

3998. The report says: 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper:' is that incorrect?-It is not the case that the whole fishermen in the islands are in debt.

3999. Is it not the case that the majority of the fishermen employed by you are in debt to your shop?-It is not. In the case of Whalsay alone, I paid £1374 to the men when I settled with them. None of them are in debt, and they have usually large sums of money to get.

4000. That is to say, they are not in debt in December when they are settled with?-Yes; and during the next year, if they have occasion to get supplies from the shop while the fishing is going on, they get them, but they are not in debt, because they are getting fish daily; and their account, although not settled, is running in their favour. We would probably be in their debt if we were to settle with them at any time during the season.

4001. But before the spring fishing begins, do they not generally run up an amount of debt at the merchants shops?-Not generally. I think the men generally take money to pay for anything they want.

4002. Is it the case that cash payments at these shops are more frequent about this season of the year, when the men have had their settlements lately over, than they are subsequently?-I think so, because they have money to pay for the articles they buy.

4003. Will the returns made by your shopkeepers of sales at the shops, or the accounts kept with the fishermen, show that?-The shopman's cash-book would show what the daily drawings were.

4004. Do you mean the daily drawings in cash?-Yes, the money.

4005. And you think the daily drawings in cash are probably larger at this season than at other times?-I should think so, because the people have more money in their hands.

4006. Then, if there is any truth in this statement, it must apply, in ordinary seasons, to the period after the fishing has begun?-Yes, it must apply to that; but the statement Mr. Hamilton makes, as to paying seamen's wages, is utterly untrue.

4007. It is true, I suppose, that agents are employed in Lerwick to secure the services of men for ships in the Greenland fishery?- Yes.

4008. Then the portion of that sentence which, I presume, you deny, is that the agents get little direct profit from their agency?- No; they do get little direct profit-only 21/2 per cent. on the wages and oil-money of the men.

4009. These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are proprietors of land themselves, or act land agents for others: is that so?-Yes, that is true.

4010. There are only three or four such agents in Lerwick- yourselves, while you continued to act in that way, Mr. Leask, Mr. Tait who has now retired, and Mr Tulloch, of A. Laurenson & Co.?-Yes; Mr Tait has been succeeded, I believe, by Messrs. Leisk and Sandison. There are no others that I know of.

4011. Mr. Hamilton says: 'The owners merely find the money to pay the wages of the men engaged. The agents manage everything else. The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for those who are in their debt.' Is it the case, as a rule, that the men engaged for these Greenland voyages have been in debt?- No. It has been so difficult for many years now to get the men forward; that we have been very willing to take any man who would come, without regard to what part of the country he belonged to.

4012. But are the men so engaged frequently in debt to the shopkeeper who engages them?-No. I think you will see that from the copy of the letter which we wrote to one of the shipowners.

4013. Is it not true in point of fact, as stated here, that the agents supply the men's outfits?-We go to the custom-house with the men after they have been engaged, and we pay them their first month's advance in cash, and that first month's advance is repaid us by the owners of the ship. We cannot open an account in our books with any of these men unless we take the risk of the debt, because the terms of their agreement are that when they come back from their voyage, nothing is to be deducted from their wages except that first month's advance, and their monthly note, if they have one.

4014. But, as a matter of fact, are these men supplied with their outfit by the agent who engages them?-The men are quite at liberty to take their money, and get their outfit where they like.

[Page 100]

4015. Still, as a matter of fact, they are supplied with their outfit by the agent, are they not?-No. We have supplied them to a very small extent; the extract I have produced from our books shows the full amount we have supplied them with, not only for their outfit, but for their whole supplies during the season.

4016. Then, during the absence of these men do their families come to your shop frequently for supplies?-We cannot give them any supplies unless they have their monthly note, and if we give them any supplies, then we credit that note. If a man leaves a monthly note to supply his family during his absence with one-half of his wages, then his family can get supplied to that extent.

4017. You supply them, if they wish, to the amount of that note?- Yes, either cash or in goods. Many of the people, if they are living in the country, take these monthly notes and hand them over to some of their friends in the country, who transmit them to Lerwick and get the money for them.

4018. In that case, these notes are not taken out in the shape of goods from your shop?-No.

4019. Are you aware whether these monthly notes are ever taken out in name of the agents?-It is very possible they may be, when the men want that to be done.

4020. Has that occurred in your dealings with them?-I think so. In some cases we get the monthly notes, and pay the value of them to the families as they become due, either in money or in goods.

4021. Whether is it more frequently in money or in goods that you have paid these notes to their families?-Some of the members of their families come into town with the monthly notes when they are due and they get the money.

4022. Or goods?-Or goods. If they want anything before the monthly note is due, they get goods, but it is very seldom that that is done. However, the result of our transactions with these men appears from the excerpt I have produced, which shows that the advances made did not come to 30s, while at settling we paid the men upwards of £10 each, in cash, taking them as a whole.

4023. When that sum of £10 is paid to them, is there a standing account against them at any of your shops?-No; the men are quite clear. For instance, in the case of the 'Labrador' for the past year, the men's wages and oil-money came, to £221, 7s. 4d., and we had not an account standing against any of them in our books.

4024. Do you state that in all cases referred to in that excerpt from your books, the sums stated as having been paid in cash were paid in full, and that at the time when they were paid there was no account due to your firm by the men?-Yes; there was not one farthing due when these sums were paid.

4025. Because it might very well happen that you had an account against them, although the cash was paid at the time in presence of the superintendent?-I understand what you mean, but the accounts will show that the men were all clear at the date of the payment.

4026. Is that at the date when the final releases were signed?-No. The final release is only signed when they get their second payment of oil-money. The second payment of oil-money is comparatively trifling, only a few shillings to each man; and they have before then been paid up their whole earnings to within 10s. or 15s. or 20s.

4027. Does the abstract account you have given in apply to the state of things at the date of the final discharge of the men?-I think it is taken from our books after the account of each ship was closed, except in the case of 1871, because we had not got their second payment of oil-money for that year, when the excerpt was made.

4028. Are all the accounts closed for 1870?-Yes.

4029. You mean that the men have got payment of the whole of their oil-money, including the second payment, for that year?- Yes; and we have now got the whole of their oil-money for 1871 also.

4030. Has the final release for 1871 be signed?-I suppose so; but I don't settle with the men personally. It is one of our clerks who does so. The part of the report to the Board of Trade which I wish particularly to refer to is this: 'It is true that the Board of Trade rules provide that "the balance to be paid to the man is the balance due on account of his voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments, as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement; and the value of such stores as may have been supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master." But no time is fixed for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again; and when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount; and I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally, but actually receive his wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes.' That part of the report is not correct.'

4031. Is it not the case that the releases of the seamen are very frequently signed many months after the ship has arrived and discharged her men?-I have explained the reason for that in my statement. The men always go home whenever the ship arrives, and come back to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.

4032. But is it the case that it is often six or eight months afterwards before the settlement is made?-It is the case that the owners don't perhaps send down account of the oil that has been boiled until this time of the year, and sometimes after this time; but we pay the men before then nearly up to what we suppose the amount of oil will be. Any small sum that is left out is sometimes not paid until the ship comes out again in the following year.

4033. The time for engaging men for the Greenland voyage is in February or March?-Yes; in the end of February or beginning of March.

4034. And you state that in your business, as agents, there is no account running with any of these men during the period after the termination of the voyage, and before the last payment of oil-money?-There is no account running with them from the time when they settle finally until they engage again.

4035. Then, at the engagement, a new account is generally opened for the outfit?-No; we have nothing to enter against them when they engage again, but just the money we pay them at the custom-house. We charge them with the month's advance which we pay them there; that is the only entry we have against them. In one or two cases there may be more-perhaps a few shillings; but in the case of the 'Labrador,' which I have already referred to, we had not a sixpence marked against any man in the vessel.

4036. What is the main reason for taking the advance notes in name of the shipping agents?-I suppose the men prefer it, because it is just as convenient for them to hand the advance notes to the shipping agents as to any other one in Lerwick.

4037. But if the advance note is taken in the name of any of the man's friends, that would entitle them to get payment of so much of his wages from the shipping agent?-Yes; but the advance note must be addressed to an agent, because the owners of the ship are here to cash it, and the agent must pay it to somebody, either to the man's wife, or to any other one that she transfers it to.

4038. But what I asked was, whether these advance notes were not taken payable, not to wife, but to the shipping agent, himself?-I think not; it is either to the wife or to some of the man's friends.

4039. I understood you to say that sometimes they were made payable to the shipping agent?-They are payable by the shipping agent. It is the agent who has to pay them.

4040. But you say they are never made payable to him as well as by him, so that he has really the control over them, if they are handed to him?-He has [Page 101] the control over them He advances the money either to the wife or to any person that she sends for it.

4041. But, in point of fact, they are not made payable to him as well as by him?-They are made payable to his order.

4042. Do you say that these notes are not so taken by the shipping agent, that he gets the benefit of them and the control over them, and that the wife has no control over them whatever?-It is quite possible that may be done in some cases, but I cannot say.

4043. But that has not been done in your practice?-I shall send for one of the forms of these notes, and that will explain the matter better to you.

4044. I understand these advance notes and allotment notes are negotiable; at least they are indorsed by the seaman's wife as a receipt?-I suppose when they are brought to the merchant they are indorsed by her, and he pays the value of the note to anybody who brings it.

4045. Can the seaman himself indorse the note beforehand?-In many cases the seamen don't get any of these allotment notes at all, especially on these short voyages to Greenland.

4046. But on a long voyage, does the seaman in point of fact indorse the note?-A married man, I suppose, will take out these advance notes to his family.

4047. And he indorses them?-I think so; but not in every case.

4048. Does he, in some cases, indorse specially to the ship's agent?-Not to my knowledge; but I have not had that matter through my hands lately, and I cannot speak to it with certainty.

4049. Do you not attend to that part of your business yourself?- No; Mr. Goudie, one of our clerks does it.

4050. Then, the contradiction you have made of the statement in the report to the Board of Trade has been made on behalf of your firm?-Yes.

4051. You have no knowledge of the way in which other agents in Lerwick have dealt?-No; but I believe these agents, as well as ourselves, are very glad to get any men they can meet with to engage for the fishing. There is sometimes great difficulty experienced in manning the ships, and we cannot pick and choose.

4052. The commission of 21/2 per, cent. is matter of private bargain between you and the shipowners?-Yes.

4053. So that, if that is an insufficient remuneration, it might by private agreement be increased?-I suppose it might; but if the owners can get people to do their work for 21/2 per cent., they will not increase it.

4054. However, the principal thing you wish to state upon that point is, that at the time when you engage these men for a Greenland voyage, none of them are, in point of fact, in debt to your firm?-None of them. That is stated in one of the letters we wrote to one of the owners in Peterhead.

4055. There have been special regulations issued by the Board of Trade applicable to the discharge of seamen in Orkney and Shetland from the whalers, which are intended to allow a longer period for signing the release?-Yes.

4056. These regulations provide-'(1.) The agreement shall be entered into before the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine office, and shall show the advance of wages made, and the allotments to be paid during the ship's absence; there shall also be a stipulation in regard to the travelling expenses of the men on their return home, in the event of their being taken past their own island. (2.) The master of the ship shall keep a separate store book for the Shetland and Orkney men, containing a distinct account for each of the men, in which, on the ship's return, he shall show the wages, and estimate the amount of oil and bone money, etc., to which they are respectively entitled; the account to be signed by himself and the seaman whom it concerns, in proof of its accuracy. At the foot of the account he shall state his opinion of the character of the man to enable the agent to prepare the certificate of discharge and character. (3.) When the men are landed the master shall deliver the book to the agent in order that the account of wages etc., may be prepared therefrom; and the balances due to the men shall be paid to them in the presence of the Superintendent at the Mercantile Marine Office, to whom the store book is to be produced by the agent. The balance to be paid to the man is to be the balance due on account of the voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement, and the value of such stores as may have been, supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master'?-It has been found to be impossible to comply with that regulation about settling with the men when they are landed, because the moment they are landed they hurry to their homes, and only come back to Lerwick to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.

4057. And in point of fact the settlement is delayed for weeks?- Yes, for weeks, and sometimes for months.

4058. Are the balances contained in the statement you have produced the balances referred to in the regulation I have read?- They are the actual cash balances due to the men, and the actual amount paid to the men in cash.

4059. The deductions in the second column are supplies made by you in goods?-Yes.

4060. Is it not an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1864, to supply goods even to that limited extent?-These supplies may have been made on monthly notes; and there is nothing in the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent us from giving credit to men going to Greenland the same as to any person at home, provided they come back and pay us. We know them, and could trust them to come back; but I don't think that, in any case, we have given them any credit.

4061. If you did not give them credit, how did you find it necessary to deduct these supplies?-In that case the supplies may have been given under monthly allotment notes.

4062. What you mean is that the £1, 7s. 2d. which you state as the average of the deductions may have been paid either in cash or in goods?-Yes. I think I have explained that in the paper I have given in.

4063. You say in one of the letters you have quoted, that 'the supplies mentioned in the account consist mostly of meal, given to the men's families to account of their half pay notes, and on which the profits cannot pay cellar rents and servants' wages'?-When a half-pay note not due until the end of the month, and the wife sends in and wants some meal in the meantime, she gets the meal, and we deduct it from the half-pay notes when we pay them.

4064. Then the half-pay notes are not generally paid cash?-They are generally paid in cash, but before they are due we give them goods to account.

4065. Am I to understand that these notes are paid mostly in meal or mostly in cash?-They are paid partly in meal, and rest is paid in money when the notes are due. If a woman has 20s. of a half pay note, she gets perhaps 5s. in meal, and then she gets the rest of the money in full when it is due. The second column in the abstract I have produced, shows the actual goods advanced, and the actual money.

4066. Have you now got one of the forms of the advance note?- Yes [produces it]; that form is addressed to us.

4067. That is to say, you are to pay it?-Yes; and the woman, when she gets the money, signs her name on the back of the note.

4068. Is it not the case sometimes that in the lines issued to Lerwick seamen the order is to pay is in favour of the ship's agent himself?-Not that I know of.

4069. Has there been no indorsation by the seaman or his wife, in any case that you are aware of which was equivalent to an order to pay to the ship's agent himself?-That could only have had the effect of reserving the agent's claim against the shipowner.

4070. No, it would enable him to retain the money which he would be bound to pay at settlement or at the end of the month when the allotment note became due to the wife or sister, or other relation [Page 102] of the seaman. Have you known any case of that kind?-There may have been such cases, but I have not been aware of them.

4071. The third article of these regulations by the Board of Trade goes on to say-'The superintendent is not to allow any deduction to be made in their account for stores supplied by the agent or by tradesmen to the seaman's family during the seaman's absence, nor is he to permit the insertion in the account of deductions for any transactions in money or goods that may have taken place before the commencement of the voyage.' I suppose that refers to the form of note now shown to me?-Yes. In fact he is not to allow anything to go into the settlement, except what is provided for in the agreement.

4072. Are these supplies, which are stated in the note, not an infringement of that rule of the Board of Trade?-No. As I mentioned already, I suppose the greater part of these supplies have been made on allotment notes.

4073. But although made on the allotment notes, yet they are supplies made by the agent to the seaman's family, and they are deducted from his wages at the end?-Yes; but these allotment notes are provided for to be included in the settlement with the seaman when he returns. They are made a legal claim against his wages.

4074. Does the rule not imply that the allotment notes are to he paid in money?-The man's family can get them either in money or in goods, as they choose. The woman may perhaps not wait until the end of the month to receive her £1, 2s. 6d. she may want a part of it in the early part of the month, or in the middle of the month; and she comes and gets either money or goods, as she chooses; and then at the end of the month she gets the balance.

4075. When she gets the goods in the middle of the month, she gets them on credit?-Yes; and she pays for them out of the £1, 2s. 6d. when she gets her allotment note settled; but I think that has occurred only to a very small extent. I think there are very few of the seamen who take these allotment notes at all. The young men don't require to take them; it is only the married men who require them.

4076. If it is the case that very few take them, then the whole of these supplies are not on allotment notes?-I think a good many of them have been given on allotment notes.

4077. But so far as they were not on allotment notes, in what way were the supplies furnished? Has it been upon accounts opened with the men for their outfit before starting?-I think that has very seldom been the case. They may occasionally get a few shillings worth when they go out; but we take care to give as little credit in that way as possible.

4078. Were the deductions you have stated here [showing] allowed by the superintendent in settling with these seamen?-No. These deductions, as I have said already, are in the form of allotment notes.

4079. But you have told me that only some of them were in the form of allotment notes; in what way were the rest of the deductions made?-The superintendent does not allow any deductions, unless what are specially mentioned in the agreements. If these men got a few shillings of advance before they went away, it is possible that may have been included, they come back and pay it after the settlement at the custom-house.

4080. Then, this total of £10, 6s. 4d. [showing] paid in cash does not show the amount that was actually handed over in presence of the superintendent?-I think it does, or near about it.

4081. But not altogether to a penny?-Perhaps not so near as that, but I took the book and went over it carefully, and picked out all the cash the men had got, and all the goods, and separated them.

4082. In settling with the men before the superintendent, you are entitled to deduct the amount of allotment notes issued is that so?-Yes; and the first month's advance, and any advances the men may have had on board the vessel during the voyage.

4083. Does the £270, 1s., 7d., mentioned in your abstract of accounts, represent the whole of the deductions that were so allowed by the superintendent?-Perhaps not exactly the whole; I shall send for the book, and it will explain it better.

4084. There may have been something due for supplies furnished in addition to what was allowed by the superintendent, and for which the seaman settled with you after receiving his cash?- Perhaps that may have been so, but I have not been in the habit of settling with the men myself.

4085. Perhaps your clerk, who settled with the men, can explain it better, as he has been in the way of carrying through the transactions?-Yes.

4086. But what I understand you to say is, that you cannot state that sum of £1, 7s. 2d. represents the whole amount of advances which on an average each received from you?-The only thing I can state just now is, that out of an average of £11, 13s. 6d., which each man was entitled to receive each year over a period of three years, we only paid them £1, 7s. 2d. in goods

4087. But you cannot state that that £1, 7s. 2d. all fell under the category of deductions allowed by the regulations of the Board of Trade?-No; not unless I were to go over every man's account, and pick out what had been given to him under allotment notes.

4088. And you cannot state that the sum of £10, 6s. 4d. was the sum which actually passed in cash at the settlement before the superintendent?-It is the actual sum which passed into the men's hands in cash.

4089. Do you say that there was not a larger sum than that which passed between the men and your clerk before the superintendent at settlement, part of which was returned to you afterwards, in payment for supplies?-I don't know about that, because I have not been in the habit of going up to the custom-house with the men; but I went over the books myself, and I found that £10, 6s. 4d. was the amount in cash which the men got out of the sum of £11, 13s. 6d., in whatever way it was paid to them.