NOTES 1. (continued 16)

5118. Is your account read over to you at settlement time?-Yes.

5119. And you see that it is correct?-Yes; so far as my judgment leads me.

5120. But you say you don't get many goods at the store: is that because you can get them cheaper elsewhere?-Perhaps that is sometimes the reason, and sometimes I don't require the things which are there. I always take my fishing materials, lines and hooks, and other things of that kind, from the store.

5121. Are these things reasonably priced?-We suppose they are much the same as in other places in the neighbourhood.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY LESLIE, examined.

5122. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Grierson at Gord?-I am.

5123. You have heard the evidence of Flawes and the others?- Yes.

5124. Do you agree with it, so far as you know?-Yes.

5125. You know the facts which have been stated by them to be true?-Yes.

5126. Have you been a long time a tenant on that estate?-Yes; for fifty years at any rate.

5127. At the commencement of that period, were you free to fish to any one you liked?-No; there has always been a bond on that estate to fish to Mr. Grierson, or to any one to whom the fish were let. That has been the case all my time, and I have been more than sixty years there.

5128. Have you fished to anybody else during any part of that time?-No; it was always to him. There were three years when Mr. Bruce and Mr Grierson were in company together.

5129. But before that you were not free?-No; I never knew a time when we were free all the time I have been there.

5130. Who did you fish to before that?-To Mr. Grierson and to his father. I fished to the present Mr. Grierson's grandfather, and I was at the beach to him.

5131. Was he a fish-curer and fish-merchant also?-Yes.

[Page 127]

5132. Was that property ever set in tack to a fish-merchant?-Yes; but that was before my day.

5133. Has the obligation to fish always been a part of the condition on which you held your land?-Yes.

5134. Were you present at the time when young Mr. Grierson intimated to the tenants that he was taking the fishing into his own hands?-Yes; I and every man and boy on the estate were all assembled in the same room, and we all heard the same agreement read

5135. Was not that the beginning of the present state of things under which you are now bound to fish?-Yes.

5136. Then you were free before that?-No, we were not free; but we wrought upon a different scale.

5137. Were you bound at that time to fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.

5138. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement which the other men have made about the present state of things?-I have nothing to add to what the other Quendale men have stated.

5139. Have you been getting meal from Mr. Grierson's store?- No; I have got none there for the last two years. I required none during that time.

5140. Have you had plenty to supply you from your own ground?-Yes; or I had bought it at a roup when other people were going out.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, PETER MOUAT SANDISON, examined.

5141. You are inspector of poor in the parish of Fetlar and North Yell?-I am.

5142. You were formerly engaged in the fish-curing trade?-I was, for a considerable time.

5143. Have you heard the evidence of any of the witnesses who have been examined here to-day?-I have.

5144. Was the mode of paying for fish, and the way in which the accounts of the fishermen were settled at the end of the year, much the same in Yell when you were engaged in the business as you have heard described?-Yes, the settlement was much the same.

5145. Was it made about the same season of the year?-It was generally made about 20th November on towards the end of the year.

5146. Does the fisherman who is employed there by a merchant usually open an account in that merchant's books for provisions and soft goods and other things which he wants for his family?- Yes, he does, almost invariably.

5147. In your experience, is that account pretty nearly even on the two sides, or is there a balance due on the one side or on the other at the end of the year?-That, of course, depends a great deal upon the party who is running the account. There is a difference in men as well as in merchants and fish-curers. Some have larger families and require a great deal more supplies than others. Some have smaller families, and the produce of their own farms can serve them for a longer period in the year than others. From various causes the amount of their supplies is very different; but for the last three years I should say there have been only about 20 to 25 per cent of them who have not had money to get at settlement.

5148. It has been said that it is an important thing for the success of a merchant to get his fishermen into debt to him, so that he may secure their services for the succeeding year: would you consider that a safe policy to pursue on the part of a merchant?-I was a fish-curer and merchant for twelve years myself, and I am always considered it to be the best policy to have clear men

5149. Did you find that, as a rule, the best men were clear in your books?-Decidedly. I never found that debt afforded me any hold whatever upon a man.

5150. Then you found the case to be rather the reverse of what I have stated?-Yes; and the reason why I think it was the reverse is, that no man was in debt who could help it, and generally a man who was in debt was found to be an extravagant, careless man, or there was something wrong with him. Whenever a man got a certain depth into debt, he did not care how much deeper he went; and if I refused him further supplies at the shop, then he just went to another merchant.

5151. Or he might go south?-Occasionally he did, but not often. These kind of men don't go south.

5152. But if he went to another man, you could charge him for your debt?-Yes; my only recourse was to summon him; but what was the use of doing that. I would only have lost the expense of my summons, because he had nothing that I could take from him; or if he had anything, his landlord generally came in with his right of hypothec.

5153. Could you not arrest the proceeds of his fishing in the hands of the other merchant to whom he had gone?-No; I think that is not legal. I have tried it, but I could not succeed. A considerable number of the men who left me one year went to another fishcurer, who happened to be their own proprietor. He had not been curing fish previously. I summoned several of them; and with one of them especially I had a case in court in Lerwick for a considerable time. It was ultimately decided that the merchant, as proprietor, should pay the expense to which I had been at; but as to the account, I did not get one penny of it. I got my expenses and nothing more. I give it up as hopeless case.

5154. Had these fishermen been obliged to leave your service and go to fish for their proprietor?-Yes; at that time they were obliged to do so.

5155. He had regarded it as part of the obligation under which they held their land that they should fish for him?-He had not been carrying on the fishing previously; and he allowed the men to fish for me, or, least, for the firm which I was conducting; but when he took the fishing into his own hands, he required his men to fish for himself.

5156. I suppose he agreed to pay the expenses of the case you mentioned because he felt it was some hardship to you to deprive you of the services of these men?-It was his lawyer and mine, I think, who agreed together about the expenses.

5157. Was the proprietor to whom you refer Mr. Henderson?-No.

5158. Was it Mr M'Queen?-No.

5159. Was he a proprietor in Yell?-Yes.

5160. How many fishermen did you generally employ?-At one time I employed 90.

5161. Would the whole of these men have accounts in your shop books?-Yes.

5162. Can you give me some idea of what amount of the proceeds of their fishing would be paid for by their account for goods?- The lowest amount that I ever had in an account for goods, when I settled with a man, was 21/2d. for a whole twelvemonth-the man got the rest in cash; and the highest, if I remember right, was somewhere about £10. 10s.

5163. What balance would remain due to that man?-Some years, of course, he would be in debt; but in other years he would have something to get.

5164. Was it a very good year in which the man had taken ten guineas worth from your shop, or was that about the average amount of their shop accounts?-I am talking about the average accounts for the twelve years during which I was carrying on the business. In the last year when I carried on the business on my own account, the most money I paid to any man for fish was £22.

5165. What would be the amount of that man's contra account for goods?-I think about six guineas.

5166. Would that be a fair specimen of the accounts?-No; that was an extra year. There was an extra quantity of fish taken, and an extra price paid for them; and that man's boat, I think, was the highest fished boat an the whole station.

5167. But would that be a fair specimen of the amount of goods which a man took throughout the season?-No.

[Page 128]

5168. Do you think it would be more, or less, an average?-It would be more than the average. I should say that about £3, 10s. would be a pretty fair average in our quarter, taking young men, tenants, and non-tenants all together.

5169. Is it the practice in the trade in Yell to give the fisherman a state of his account at the end of the year?-No; it is not the practice.

5170. Or a pass-book?-We always wanted them to keep a pass-book, but they would very seldom do it. They could not be troubled with it. Sometimes they would take a pass-book and bring it for a few times, and then, perhaps, they would not bring it again for month.

5171. Does that arise from their own carelessness; or is it from a notion that the shopkeeper cannot be troubled entering the goods in a book as they are got, because he is too busy to do so?-I never knew that to be the case; but I have heard many of the men say they had confidence in their merchant, and that they would not be bothered to keep a pass-book.

5172. When that was the case, did you, at the settlement, read over the accounts to the fishermen item by item?-Yes, in most cases; but some men won't be at the bother of even hearing their accounts read over. They just say, 'We know you won't cheat us,' and they hear the sum-total.

5173. Then it is their own fault if they do not know what their account contains?-Of course it is.

5174. Is it the men who make the settlement with you, or their wives?-The men, generally.

5175. Then they don't know what they have got out of the shop, if it is their wives who have been dealing there?-Probably not; but there is a whole day given to the settlement with these men, and they have plenty of time to examine into their accounts if they think there anything wrong.

5176. Did you do anything in hosiery?-I did.

5177. When you bought hosiery goods, did you usually send them to the south?-Yes.

5178. Did you send any to merchants in Lerwick?-I generally sent knitted goods to the south; and the worsted I sent to Lerwick.

5179. You bought worsted yourself?-Yes; yarn made by the country people themselves with their own wool.

5180. What is the usual price for Shetland worsted?-From 2d. to 7d. per cut.

5181. That comes to how much per pound?-We never take it by the pound; we always take it by the cut. 7d. a cut would, I suppose, be about 2s. 6d. per ounce, or 40s. per pound.

5182. Would not that be very fine?-Yes.

5183. Would it be the finest Shetland worsted that is made?-I think it is. I have never bought any finer than that, and I have not been aware of any being bought finer.

5184. Then you sold that to merchants in Lerwick at some per centage of profit to yourself?-Not one cent. I never, in all my experience, got a cent for worsted beyond what I paid for it, and I never asked it.

5185. Do you think the worsted you have mentioned is the finest and dearest worsted that is sold out of the island to any merchant?-I do.

5186. Did you ever know of any worsted being sold out of Yell as high as 80s. or 90s. per pound?-I may be making a mistake the weight. I was guessing 4 cuts to the ounce; but perhaps I may be below the mark. The 7d. worsted I know is very fine; but never weighed it, and I may be making an unintentional mistake in that respect.

5187. The 7d. worsted might be lighter than you suppose, and therefore a pound of it might be more expensive?-Yes.

5188. Is it a common thing to have worsted so fine as that?-No; it is the exception.

5189. The average will be a good deal lower?-I should think 3d. would be about the average.

5190. In dealing with people in Yell, you keep an account with the fisherman?-Yes.

5191. Is there any separate account kept for supplies with the wife and family?-Yes; there are separate accounts kept with them. I don't suppose there are many families in the north in which each member, after arriving at a certain age does not keep a separate account.

5192. Is that in consequence of their being employed in the fish trade, or from their having hosiery of their own making to dispose of?-I don't think it is; but the husband or father is generally at the fishing, and he supplies the heavy goods that are required for the family-meal and such like-so far as he is able. Then the wife has wool, which she either spins into worsted, or perhaps may sell. She comes to the merchant herself with it and makes her own bargain. Perhaps she may be due a little when she comes with this day's supplies for stuff that she has been buying, and anything she is due may be put to her own account; the next day she may have a little over, and that is credited to her account. Then the girls, as soon as they are able to knit, go to the shop on their own account too with their knitting and with their spinning, and the merchant upon his responsibility opens an account with them, if he thinks proper; and they go on with these accounts until perhaps they are married.

5193. Then hosiery is generally paid for in Yell with goods?- There is seldom anything asked for except goods.

5194. The account for goods is added up on the one side, and the account for hosiery on the other, and it is squared up now and then?-The value of the hosiery is generally given in goods at the time when the hosiery is sold.

5195. In Yell the hosiery is always sold; it is not made to order?- No; there is no making to order in Yell.

5196. Is there a separate book kept for those dealings with the females from that in which you enter your dealings with the fishermen?-I think in most cases there is a separate book. At any rate I kept a separate book, but I cannot speak for others.

5197. It has been said that that book is called the women's book: is that so?-That was the name I gave to it.

5198. But you don't know whether other merchants give it that name?-No; but I gave it that name because I had no other entries in it except the accounts had against women.

5199. I understand it was only the home-fishing that you engaged?-Yes.

5200. You had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing?-No.

5201. Do you think it would be any advantage for the merchants or for the fishermen if the price to be given for the fish were fixed at the commencement of the fishing season?-I think that would be an advantage to the merchants, but not for the fishermen.

5202. How would the merchants benefit by that?-Because they would then have no bargain to make with the fishermen.

5203. They would have to make a bargain at the commencement of the year?-Yes; but suppose the bargain were to be, that the fish were to be paid for at 8s. per cwt.; in that case the fishermen would require to own his own boat and his own lines, and furnish them himself, and the fish-curer or merchant would have no risk and no loss, but would just pay exactly for what he got. But in the case as it at present stands, the merchant has to furnish the boat and lines, and salt, and everything connected with the fishing, and he has the chance in North Yell, as is very often the case, of losing £5 or £10 or £15 worth of lines in one day in the deep water. The lines are often left there, and the men cannot get them.

5204. In what why does the merchant furnish the boat to the men?-He buys the boat, and hires it, as well as the lines, to six men.

5205. What is the amount of the hire?-£6 per season for boat and lines.

5206. And that sum is deducted from the credit side of the fisherman's account?-Yes. The six men come forward to me as a fish-curer, and they wish me to [Page 129] employ them for the fishing. I do so, and I give them a boat which, if it is a new boat ready for sea, will cost £20. I also give them new lines, which, along with the boat, will cost altogether from £35 to £40. They agree to pay me £6 of hire for that for the time they use it, and to deliver the fish caught by them with these lines and in that boat to me. No price is fixed for the fish, but it is the general understanding that they are to be paid at the highest currency of the country. Well, they go to the fishing, and perhaps the very first day, as I have known to be the case, they may have lost £15 worth of lines; and as soon as they come ashore, they come to me, and I have to give them other £15 worth.

5207. Do they not pay for the lines they have lost in that case?- Not one penny; I take the risk. The sum which I charge covers all risk, and that is all I get.

5208. Then the fishermen have not much inducement to be careful of the lines or of the boat?-Oh yes; because if they lose lines, they lose fish; and if they lose the boat, they stand a chance of losing their own lives. I have not been a fisherman myself, but I should fancy that no fisherman would willingly lose lines if he could help it.

5209. Is it not the case that fishermen sometimes buy the boat from the curer, and pay for it by instalments running over a certain number of years?-Not in Yell.

5210. You have had no experience of that system of dealing?-I cannot say that I have.

5211. Do you think it is of great importance to a fish-curer here to have fishermen bound to fish for him? Does it tend greatly to ensure his success in the fishing trade?-I don't know very well how to answer that question. I had fishermen bound to me during the period of my lease-about sixty of them I suppose.

5212. Was that a lease which you held of an estate in Yell?-Yes; Major Cameron's.

5213. Did you lease the whole of Major Cameron's property in North and Mid Yell?-Yes.

5214. Were these men all bound to fish for you?-They were leased over to my brother, and I wrought out the business for him, but the men were never compelled in any way. About one-third of them were south-going men, and I should think about one-sixth of them fished to others.

5915. You did not enforce the obligation which you understood them to be under?-No; I never enforced it in any case but one.

5216. Had you always enough men to man your boats with?-We had men belonging to other proprietors, and other proprietors had men belonging to us, and none of us ever enforced that obligation except in one case, and that was merely in order that we might put out a boat to sea. There were five men engaged for the boat, and we could not get another free man, so we had to take one.

5217. Was that long since?-Yes; it was in 1855. But I know of men who have been offered this year and last year to get their money every Saturday night, or every day when they landed fish, and they would not accept it. These were men who were thoroughly clear.

5218. Was it wages they were offered, or a price for the fish they delivered?-A price for the fish they delivered. Suppose they delivered 20 cwt. of fish to me, I would pay them for these fish.

5219. How was the price to be fixed in that case?-It would be fixed at once.

5220. Would it be fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes.

5221. Is it long since you proposed that arrangement to any man?-It was at the settlement of 1870.

5222. Did you offer to pay certain men in that way at that time?-I did not do it, because I was not in the fishing at that time, but I was present when it was offered. It was the parties for whom I was curing fish at that time who offered the money.

5223. Was that Spence & Co.?-Yes.

5224. The offer was made to men in Yell?-Yes.

5225. And the men declined that offer?-Yes; they declined taking it. They said if they had as much money as would carry them through the year, they would rather not take any more, but that they could trust to the merchants.

5226. Was that offer made to many men?-To all their men in Yell. There were 30 boats, with six men in each boat, and that offer was made to the whole of them at Cullivoe. The same offer was repeated this year, and they still would not accept of it. They accept of not take their cash until the end of the year.

5227. Was that because they wanted to have something at the end of the year with which to pay their rent?-I suppose that would be one of their reasons; but they were afraid that if they got their cash every Saturday, or every fortnight, or every month, they would spend it carelessly and thoughtlessly, whereas they did not have the money, they could not spend it.

5228. Are there any leases in Yell now?-Scarcely any.

5229. Have there been leases introduced lately?-No; but there have been some offered-on Major Cameron's estate, and on Mr. Irvine's.

5230. Do these leases contain any conditions as to fishing?-No.

5231. Were the conditions such as would interfere with fishing, or do you know anything about that?-Mr. Irvine's leases were not such as to interfere with the fishing in any way, and I think there were three persons who accepted them. With regard to the other leases, I do not say they were such as would interfere with the fishings. There was a certain amount of work required to be done on the farms during the year, but I think all that was required could have been done when there was no fishing being prosecuted. At that season, what I would call the fishing was not going on.

5232. But the tenants have not accepted that offer?-There are two on Major Cameron's property who are under lease, I believe, or who understand they are under leases. I am not aware if the lease has ever been signed; I think not.

5233. The poor-rates in your parish, I understand are not so high as in some parts of Shetland?-I suppose not. They are 3s. for 1872-1s. 6d. on the proprietor and 1s. 6d. on the tenant.

5234. Can you say, from your experience as an inspector of poor, that pauperism is promoted in any degree by the system which prevails of settling only once a year?-No; I should not say it was increased in any way by that.

5235. Does not that system of long settlements induce people to be a little careless about their money, and improvident?-There are a certain class who, if they had money, would spend it. That class are pretty well looked after by the fish-curer; they are only allowed advances in such small proportions as enable them to get through the year, and to be as little in arrear as possible at the end. If these same parties had the money in their hands, I am certain it would not last them so long as it does in the fish-curer's hands.

5236. That is to say, he will only allow them a certain amount of supplies from the shop?-Yes; so much a week or a fortnight.

5237. Or cash if they want it, but to a limited extent?-Yes; I should think that cash would be given to a free man.

5238. But not to a bound fisherman?-Not unless it was for a necessary purpose-to purchase something, for instance, which the merchant cannot supply.

5239. If a man is bound to fish to a proprietor or tacksman in Yell, is that man bound to deal at the shop of his employer?-By no means.

5240. By a free man, do you mean one who is not in debt?-Yes. I don't mean to say that cash would be absolutely refused even to a man who was in debt, but it would not be given to him unless it was for a necessary purpose.

5241. Can you explain how beach boys are generally employed in Yell?-Yes, I ought to have a pretty good idea of it.

[Page 130]

5242. Is an account opened at the shop at the same time that the engagement is made in the beach boy's name, from which he can get supplies if he wishes them?-Yes, sometimes.

5243. So that when he becomes a beach boy, he is virtually independent of his father?-Not always. The fish-curer would prefer not to open an account with him until the end of the season, because generally, when a beach boy gets an account opened, he will overrun it if he possibly can. Therefore we prefer not to open an account with the boys themselves, but to deal with their fathers, which we very often do. In the case, however, of an orphan boy, or a boy who has got extravagant or helpless parents, we open an account with himself.

5244. Is there any difficulty in procuring the services of beach boys?-I never knew of any difficulty. I have cured fish since 1859, and I never had power over one, and I never wanted to have it.

5245. You had not power over them even where you had the fishermen bound to you?-No; they have not been bound for the last seven years while I have been curing.

5246. Is it seven years since those fishermen on Major Cameron's estate were bound?-Yes.

5247. At that time did the obligation apply to their families?-No.

5248. Then the boys were not obliged to be engaged to you as beach boys?-No; we took any boy who was most convenient for ourselves, without taking into consideration whose tenant his father was.

5249. It has been said that there is an inclination on the part of the fish merchant to get the beach boys into his debt, so as to secure their services in the following year: is there any foundation for that statement?-I have heard it said, but I never could believe it was the case.

5250. Are the boys always quite ready to engage for that work?- They are always very anxious to engage for it, because always before they enter on hard labour they are able to take a turn on the beach, and they get something for that.

5251. But what they get for it is generally settled for in goods at the end of the year?-No, not generally. If a boy runs an account himself, it is settled in goods; but if it is an account with his father, it is settled in cash.

5252. May the proportion of the boys who have an account of their own be about one-half or about one-third of them?-I should say that for the last three years three-fourths of them have got an account of their own; but then they were not boys. Although they get the name of boys, they were old men and women.

5253. You mean that women are employed in that part of the work?-Yes.

5254. What are their wages?-In 1870 the parties under my control had from £4, 10s. down to 35s. according to age and ability; and in 1871 the people employed were all boys except one man: the boys had from 25s. to 35s., and the man had £3.

5255. Are you still in the fish-curing business?-Yes; I cure their fish for Spence & Co.

5256. Have you a shop now?-No.

5257. Then you simply manage their curing business?-I merely dry their fish for them.

5258. And the persons you have spoken of just now are still employed by you for the purpose of curing?-Yes.

5259. How are their wages paid?-As I was curing Spence & Co.'s fish, if they chose to go to Spence Co.'s at Uyea Sound in Unst, they got supplies there in an account, but only about one-fourth of them did so. The others got their supplies perhaps in the neighbouring shops. I cannot say where they got them, but they got cash from Spence & Co. at settling time.

5260. Was that cash advanced during the season, or was it all paid at settlement?-It was all paid settlement. If they asked for an advance, they would get it, but I was not aware of any being advanced.

5261. But such advances as were made by Spence and Co. were made by taking goods from their shop?-Yes, so far as I know. I also bought kelp for Spence & Co.

5262. Is there much done in kelp there?-Yes, good deal.

5263. What is the nature of that trade? Do you employ a number of people to gather the sea-weed?-It is women who do that. They form themselves into companies of two or three or four; they gather the seaweed and make the kelp, and then bring it to a merchant to sell. I had a lease of Major Cameron's kelpshores, but I transferred that lease to Spence & Co, and afterwards I bought the kelp and delivered it over to them.

5264. Did the women pay anything to the proprietor for leave to collect the sea-weed?-No; but I paid 20s. a ton, or rather Spence & Co. did.

5265. You paid that money for the exclusive right of purchasing from these women?-For the exclusive right of manufacturing kelp., We can employ people to collect it if we choose, but we think it better just to allow the women to do it themselves, without being forced in any way; and then we paid them 4s. per cwt. in cash for it, while we paid 20s. a ton to the proprietor and taxes.

5266. What taxes are there on the kelp?-Poor-rates, both as proprietor and tenant.

5267. Then 4s. per cwt. is the whole payment which these women receive for gathering the kelp and manufacturing it?-Yes.

5268. They manufacture it and bring it to you?-Yes.

5269. Are they paid entirely in cash?-They have been paid almost entirely in cash this year, but not altogether.

5270. They have the option of running an account for it at the shop?-Yes, if they choose to do so; but if they ask cash, they get it.

5271. Are you aware of any restriction being imposed upon tenants in Yell with regard to the disposing of their cattle or other stock on their ground?-I have known an instance or two of that during my experience in North Yell, but very seldom.

5272. Has that been done when they have been in debt to the merchant?-Yes; if they were in debt, almost beyond redemption.

5273. Then the merchant has interfered as a creditor merely?-Not the merchant, but the proprietor.

5274. Was it for his rent that he interfered?-Yes.

5275. In these cases was the proprietor a merchant as well?-Yes, in some cases.

5276. And he has interfered both for his rent, and for the account due to him as a merchant?-I cannot say about him being a merchant. I always understood it was done for rent. I have known of cattle being taken according to law for a shop account.

5277. You mean that they were poinded?-Yes, by a Sheriff's warrant.

5278. But is there any practice in Yell of a man marking his cattle as belonging to a merchant to whom he is in debt?-No; I never knew that done.

5279. Or coming under an obligation not to sell them to any one except that merchant?-I could quite believe that a tenant would offer his cow or his pony, or whatever it might be, to the proprietor; but I am not aware of any one being compelled to do so in North Yell. I have myself marked a cow of a defaulting tenant when I was acting as my brother's agent, and as lessee of Major Cameron's property, but that was for the rent.

5280. Did you mark it and allow it to remain on the ground?- Yes; I allowed it to continue in the tenant's hands until I might think fit to remove it.

5281. Was that man in debt to you as well?-He was in debt as a tenant only for rent.

5282. Was he not also in debt for goods supplied?-No; because he was not a fisherman; he was a sailor.

5283. Would you give a higher price for kelp than 4s. a cwt. if the women had taken payment of it in goods?-No; there was an understanding at one time that parties would get 6d. less if they took it in cash, [Page 131] but for the last two years, in my experience with Spence & Co., and formerly with myself, the women have been quite at liberty to take cash or goods, and 4s. was the price. According to the terms of my lease, I was bound to pay nothing less than 4s. to the parties who made it.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.

5284. You are a tenant under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh at Toab, Dunrossness, and you fish for him?-Yes.

5285. You have heard the evidence that was given by William Goudie and the other fishermen to-day?-Yes.

5286. Do you know it to be correct with regard to the system of fishing there, and the obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes; so far as I can remember, it is correct.

5287. Did it happen some time ago that you had sold fish to another than Mr. Bruce?-It was supposed so.

5288. What was done in consequence?-My house was offered to be let to another tenant. It was publicly advertised at Messrs. Hay's shop at Dunrossness.

5289. The you see the ticket put up?-No, I did not see it.

5290. But you knew of it?-Yes.

5291. And in consequence of what you heard about it, did you go to Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

5292. What did you say? Did you ask why your farm was to be let?-Yes. He told me before I had time to speak that he was forced to offer my house to another tenant. I said there was surely a cause for that, and he said that the cause was that I was selling fish to another man.

5293. To whom did he say you were selling fish?-To Robert Leslie.

5294. Was that the case?-No; I proved it not to be the case. I told him I would bring proof of that if he required it, but I was never called upon to do so.

5295. You satisfied Mr. Bruce that he was under a mistake, and you still hold the same ground?-Yes.

5296. Had you reason to believe that you would really have been turned out of your ground for selling your fish to another than Mr. Bruce if you had done so?-I had every cause to think so.

5297. Why?-Because at the commencement, when he took the fishing into his own lands, there was a letter read in my hearing, to the effect that we were to deliver our fish to him.

5298. Is that the letter which Laurence Smith spoke of to-day?- Yes, the same letter. It was read by John Harper in my hearing.

5299. Do you know whether the meal is dearer at Grutness store than you can get it elsewhere?-Yes; I have got a little there.

5300. Have you bought it cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; I have bought it in Lerwick, and I found it cheaper there than at the store. It was in 1869 that I bought a boll of meal at Lerwick, and I paid £1, 3s. for it, while their meal that season was 24s.

5301. Was there any difference in the weight of the boll at Grutness?-I could not prove that. I had a running account there, and I sometimes got a boll, sometimes half a boll, and sometimes a peck; but when I came to settle, it was all run up into bolls, and I paid 24s. a boll for it.

5302. Had you any reason to suppose that you did not get the same weight in a boll from the store that you got anywhere else?-I made an objection to that, and I was told there was a little deduction made when I got 32 lbs. for a quarter boll instead of 35 lbs, but what that difference was I never knew.

5303. Who told you that?-Gilbert Irvine, the factor.

5304. Did he tell you that he only gave you 32 lbs. for a quarter boll?-I saw the weight myself. What we call a quarter boll is 35 lbs, and what is called a lispund is 32 lbs.; so that there should be a difference between what we call boll weight, and 32 lbs. for the quarter boll.

5305. Then you suspect or believe that you only got a lispund instead of a quarter boll?-Yes; I am under that impression, whether I am correct or not.

5306. Had you not the means of satisfying yourself about that?- Perhaps I might if I had inquired, but I never made any strict inquiry about it.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY SINCLAIR, examined.

5307. You are a tenant on the Simbister estate at Levenwick?- Yes; and I was formerly bound under a tacks-master.

5308. That was Robert Mouat?-Yes.

5309. You were bound to fish for him?-Yes.

5310. Who told you that you were so bound?-He told me himself.

5311. Did anybody else tell you that?-No.

5312. Was it understood in the neighbourhood that you were bound to give all your fish to him?-Yes; all my neighbours understood the same.

5313. Did you at any time deliver your fish to another?-Not one tail. I delivered them all to him during his tack.

5314. Was there one time when he gave you warning to leave?- On one occasion, when we had a good fishing, he sent away 7 cwt. of wet fish and kept it off us. My son was fishing with me at the time, and he went to Mouat; and they rather cast out about it at Mouat's house, and he told my son then that we should not be allowed to sit.

5315. Then it was because of a quarrel about the quantity of fish entered in the fish-book that you got your warning?-Yes.

5316. You were not warned out because you gave your fish to another dealer?-No; that was not the cause of it. Then, Mouat would not give me half of the land to sit in, in case my son sat beside me.

5317. Do you mean that he wanted your son to fish for him?-No; he thought that because they had cast out, if I got any land at all, my son would stay beside me; and that upset my son and made him lose his senses, so that he is now in the Asylum.

5318. How did that upset your son?-Because he was of a quick spirit, and he was grieved that we should have been put out of the land.

5319. But you were not put out of the land?-We were. I went to the sea, and Mouat took my wife to a piece of the hill-side and showed her there where we should build our house on a piece of the open hill.

5320. Did you build your house there?-Yes. He said that if we would not build our house there, we might lie at the back of a dyke.

5321. Did you fish for him after that?-Yes.

5322. Were you bound to do so?-My son would not fish, but I was still upon the land, and I just fished for him.

5323. Did you get your provisions at Mouat's store at Sandwick?-Yes; I could do nothing else than go to him, and he has brought me to poverty.

5324. Did you get your meal and other things there?-Yes; I had to go there for them all.

5325. Did you run an account with him, and settle it when you settled for your fish at the end of the year?-Yes.

5326. Had you ever a balance to get in money?-I had money in his hands when I was put out of the land.

5327. Up till the time when Mouat left the place, were you getting money from him year by year?-I was just getting out of the shop what I required, for I never got into debt to him.

5328. If anything was over did you get it in money [Page 132] at the settlement?-No; but the worst thing he did was he last time when he was going about looking for cattle which he could pick out and put away.

5329. Did he pick out any from you?-Yes. He took the last one I had, and he promised to give me a cow for it next week, but it has never come yet.

5330. Did you get any meal at Mouat's store?-The greater part of it was fit for nothing but the pigs.

5331. Could you have got it better at any other place near you?- Yes; but we could not get money from him, and therefore we had to take the meal from his store.

5332. Would he never advance you money for your fish?-No. 5333. You are not under that obligation now, but you can fish for anybody you like?-I am not fishing now; I am too old.

5334. But the people thereabout can fish for anybody they like?- Yes.

<Adjourned.>

Brae: Wednesday, January 10, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

JAMES HAY, examined

5335. Are you a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am a fisherman, but I have not been at Mossbank. I live at a place called Firth, about a mile from Mossbank, to the south and east of it.

5336. Have you a bit of land there?-Yes; a small farm.

5337. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Thomas Adie. I go to the ling-fishing in the summer time.

5338. What bargain do you make with Mr. Adie about selling your fish to him?-I have never had any bargain made when I commenced to fish

5339. You just make up a boat's crew, and you are paid for your fish at the end of the season according to the current rate?-Yes

5340. Is it the understanding with all the boats' crews that they are to be paid at the current rate?-Yes.

5341. When is the price of your fish paid to you? At Martinmas when we settle.

5342. Have you an account in Mr. Adie's books for supplies to

yourself and your family in the meantime?-Yes.

5343. Do you deal at his shop for all your provisions and your purchases of cotton and other things?-I do, for the principal part of what I need, but not altogether.

5344. How far do you live from Mr. Adie's nearest shop?-About 71/2 miles; his shop is at Voe.

5345. Do you always go there for what you want-Yes; generally I do that, unless sometimes, when I am needing some small things, I may go to another: but I am not bound to go to his shop unless I choose to go.

5346. Then why do you go so far?-Because I generally fish to Mr. Adie, and I have the greatest part of my dealings with him. I have not been accustomed to shift very much, unless it might be an inconvenience to me, and sometimes I have gone to another shop.

5347. How long have you fished for him?-For about fourteen or fifteen years.

5348. When you settle in November or December, have you generally a balance of cash to receive?-Sometimes I have and sometimes not.

5349. Does that depend upon the season?-Yes.

5350. When it has been a good season, you have generally something to receive?-Yes.

5351. How much did you get at last settlement in cash?-I think I got about £19 in money.

5352. What was the amount of your account for goods furnished at the shop?-I had more things in Mr. Adie's hands then than my summer's winnings; I had cattle in to sell.

5353. Had you sold cattle to Mr. Adie as well as your fish?-Yes. I had sold a young stot and a cow; I think they came to about £8.

5354. Were they sold at a public auction?-Yes.

5355. And bought by Mr. Adie there?-Mr. Adie. became good to pay me for them. I could not say exactly who was the purchaser.

5356. The price of these animals was included in the £19 you got in cash?-Yes; I paid my shop account, and then I got that money.

5357. Then, deducting the price you got for your cattle, there is £11 remaining as the price you got for your fish?-Yes; but I owned the boat myself, and I had the other men's hires to get in.

5358. Were these accounted for to you through Adie's books?- Yes. There were five of these hires to be paid; there were six of us in the boat altogether.

5359. What would be their share of the hire?-I think the hire of a boat is 50s.

5360. Then each of them would pay about 8s. 6d.?-Yes.

5361. So that would be 44s. off for boat-hire, leaving little less than £9 as the price of your fish, after deducting your shop account?-No; my share of the summer winning was more than that.

5362. But I am asking you what you got in cash at settlement?-I think it was about £19, or perhaps a little more.

5363. And £8 was taken off for the cow and about 44s. for the boat-hire?-The price of the cow and stot and my summer's earnings were all summed up together, and came to a certain amount; what I had got from Mr. Adie came to a certain amount too, and when I paid that off I had about £19 to get in clear money.

5364. But after taking the price of the cow and the value of the boat-hire off the £19, there would be something like £9 remaining: was that £9 due to you for anything besides your fish? Was anything due to you by Mr. Adie, except the price of the cow and the boat hire, and the price of your fish?-I don't remember anything else.

5365. Then £9 would be something like the price of your fish?-I don't remember.

5366. Have you a pass-book?-I have one but I have not brought it with me.

5367. How much was your shop account?-I think it was about £17.

5368. Then your fish would be worth about £26 altogether: was that the value of your take of fish last year?-No; my fish did not come to that. I think my sixth share came to about £18; but then, as I owned boat of my own, and had the expense of her to pay I was paid a little more than the others, so that I might have more than £18 to get.

5369. How do you square up your account at the shop and your account for fish at the end of the year?-At the end of the year I may have more things put into Mr. Adie's hands than my fishing. For instance last year I had that cow and stot, and perhaps some other things, and these and my fishing are all put together to my credit. Then my out-takes and things I have been requiring from Mr. Adie are put too, and the amount they come to is stated to me.

5370. Is that read over to you, or have you got it [Page 133] already in your pass-book?-Sometimes I have a passbook, and sometimes I don't require one. Sometimes I don't fash with it; that is the truth.

5371. Why is that?-I thought there was very little need for it, because Mr. Adie and I never disputed about these things, and when I had a pass-book I was not very particular about keeping it.

5372. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the season if you want it?-I never was refused it when I asked for it.

5373. Is there generally something due to you for fish at the end of the season?-Sometimes I have been due Mr. Adie, and sometimes I have had a little in his hand; but, taking one time with another, we are generally square, and I am happy to say we are square in the meantime.

5374. Is there anything you think could be mended in that way of settling your accounts?-I don't know, I am sure.

5375. Was there anything particular you came here to-day to say about it?-There is one thing I would say, that we fishermen never know what we are to have when we commence our fishing. We work away as if we were blind. We don't know what the price is to be until the time of settlement, and then we must just take what currency is given, and we can get no further, and can make no more for ourselves.

5376. Do you think you could make any better arrangement than that?-I don't know, I am sure.

5377. Do you think you would be better off if you made a bargain for a fixed price to be paid to you at the delivery of your fish?-I might be better off with that in one season, and I might be worse off in others; but if I made my bargain for that, I could not grumble, although the fish could be paid better. At settlement I must stand by my bargain. Then, if the price of fish was less, the merchant might lose; so that I don't know which way would be best.

5378. But in that way you would know what you were working for?-Yes; and I would have no reason to grumble if I had made a bargain, even although I could have made a better thing of it in another way.

5379. Have you ever been asked to make a bargain of that kind?- No.

5380. Have you ever proposed it yourself?-I have turned it over, and said that it was a hard thing for a poor fisherman like me to fish and not know what I was fishing for, when other seamen knew what they were working for; but I never came to any conclusion about it.

5381. Do you think, if you were paid in that way in the course of the season as the fishing went on, you could make a better use of your money by purchasing your goods at other places than Mr. Adie's shop?-I could not say much about that.

5382. Could you buy your goods as well and as cheaply nearer home?-I don't think it, because the merchants appear to be all much about the same in our neighbourhood. They have all one price for their articles.

5353. Are the merchants about you all engaged in the fishing business as well as in the shop business?-Not all of them; but some of them are. Mr. Pole engaged in it; he is the principal merchant near us.

5384. Are there some of them who are not engaged the fishing business at all?-There is Robert Murray at Swinister; he is not much engaged in it. His shop about half a mile from where I live.

5385. Would you be as well served there, and as cheaply, as you are at Mr. Adie's and at Mr. Pole's?-I don't think would be any better.

5386. Would it be any advantage to you to have your money at your own command?-I might think so. A man is always glad to have some money to lay his hands upon.

5387. In answering my question in that way, do you mean to say that your money is not at your own disposal?-What I have to get when I settle I get without a word, and it is at my own disposal; but I would not like to take money from a man when I was due him anything. I would like always to pay my debts; and what I had over when I would know was my own, and I would make the best of it that I could.

5388. Does that mean that what money you get before settlement is not your own, and is not at your own disposal?-When I was standing in need of anything and wanted a little money, which I did not have myself, I could go to Mr. Adie when I was fishing for him, and ask him for £1 or £2, and he would give it to me, and then when I settled I would pay it back to him.

5389. That is to say, it would be charged against you at settlement?-Yes.

5390. But do you mean to say that if you get £1 or £2 in that way, you would not be at liberty to spend it as you pleased, and to buy goods with it at any shop you liked?-No. I could go where I liked with it, if I got it from him, because, of course, I would pay it back to him again, and he would not care what use I made of it.

5391. Would you rather have more cash advanced to you during the season than you have in an ordinary way at present, and not get all your goods at Voe?-I could not exactly say about that; I might. If I was paying down cash for the goods, I might get them a little cheaper than by marking them down.

5392. Would you get them cheaper for cash at Mr. Adie's own shop at Voe?-Well, money is a thing that every person is always glad to get hold of; and he might give me 1d. or 2d. down upon an article for ready money, which I would not get if he were to mark it down in his book.

5393. Do you know that you get a discount of 5 per cent. there for cash?-I have got it before. I have got 5 per cent. discount when I settled.

5394. Was that on goods that were entered in your account?-Yes; I have got that. I am not perfectly sure if I will get it this year, but I know that I have got it before.

5395. If you get that when you settle at the end of the year, would you get anything more if you were to pay in cash?-I am not able to say.

5396. You just think you would like to have your money in your hand as you deliver your fish: is that the notion you have?-I don't know whether it would be better to get it in my hand then, or to wait until I got it all at once at the conclusion.

5397. Are there some advantages in both ways of dealing?-I believe there are.

5398. Perhaps you would spend it too fast if you had it in your own hands?-I don't know about that. I would not like to spend it if I had it, unless it was for something that I really required to spend it on.

5399. Are you under any obligation to go to Mr. Adie's shop for the goods you want in the course of the year?-None that I am aware of.

5400. You have never been told it of course; but is it a great deal more convenient for you to go there than to deal at another shop?-No; it is not more convenient. I could go to it shop somewhat nearer; but still I don't think I would be any better; and as it has always been my custom to go there, I just continue to go.

5401. Is it only because it is your custom to go, or is it because you are in the way of delivering your fish to Mr. Adie, that you go to his store?-Mr. Adie has been very obliging to me many times by helping me when I could not help myself, and therefore I always felt a warm heart towards him, and went to his store.

5402. But is it the way with fishermen here, that they got to the shop of the man that they sell their fish to?-I am not able to speak to that except for myself.

5403. Do you not know what your neighbours do? It depends on the circumstances that my neighbours are in. If they are indebted to the man they are fishing to, of course they will go to that man, and perhaps have very little to go to him with.

5404. Are those neighbours of yours who are so indebted also likely to engage to fish for the same merchant during the following season?-Yes. When man is short of money, and has not enough with [Page 134] which to pay his land rent, he may go to the man he is fishing to, and he will help him with what he requires, but the understanding in that case is that he will serve him at the fishing for the rising year. That is generally the way it is done.

5405. Do you mean that when a man gets advances at a merchant's shop, it is understood that he must fish to him in the coming year?-Yes; that is generally understood.

5406. Have you had to do that yourself?-No; I have never been so hard up as that in my time.

5407. You have never been behind at the settlement?-Not very often. Sometimes I have been, and I have got advances from Mr. Adie without a word; but I was intending to fish for him in the coming year before I asked them.

5408. And you would make as good a bargain with him as with any other fishmaster?-I have always thought so.

5409. So that you did not fish to him because you were under any compulsion?-No.

5410. Were you under any obligation to do it because you were in his debt?-No. I have never been so deep in his debt but what, if I had it to do, I could have made some effort to get myself clear.

5411. Therefore the answer you previously gave only meant that there might be some men among your neighbours so far in debt that they were obliged to fish to a particular merchant?-Yes; when he supplied them with goods.

5412. Do you think there are many of those men among your neighbours?-I have no doubt there are more that way than there are the other way.

5413. Do you think that arises from the length of time that passes before you can get your money, or is there anything else you can think of that might mend that state of matters?-I cannot say.

5414. Is there anything else you want to tell me about the way in which dealings are carried on here?-No.

5415. You know you are on your oath, and you bound to speak the truth, and nobody can hurt you for anything you say to-day?-I trust that I shall say nothing but the truth, so far as I know.

5416. From whom do you hold your land and house?-From Mr. Bell of Lunna.

5417. Are you not bound by the terms of your lease to fish for any particular person?-No; he did not bind me to do that. I got liberty to serve myself and to fish for any one I pleased when I took the land from him; only if I went to Skerries I would have had to fish for John Robertson, who had a tack of Mr. Bell's land; but if I fished in any other way, he did not stop me from fishing for any person.

5418. But if you went to Skerries, and fished there during the summer, you would be bound by your bargain to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes.

5419. How do you know that that is an obligation upon you?-I was told so by the proprietor when I took the land.

5420. Was that told you by Mr. Bell himself?-Yes.

5421. Did he tell you at the same time, that if you fished elsewhere than at Skerries, you were at perfect liberty to fish for any one you liked?-Yes. He told me I was not bound to fish for Mr Robertson unless I fished at Skerries; but that if I fished at Skerries I must fish for him.

5422. Are there people in your neighbourhood who go to fish at Skerries?-There is one boat which generally fishes there.

5423. But they might go elsewhere if they chose?-I cannot say for that.

5424. Do you know of any person who has been threatened or turned off his ground on the estate of Lunna in your neighbourhood for refusing to fish to a particular person?-I do not.

5425. Are the fishermen there all free?-About us they are, so far as I know: that is about Firth, a mile from Mossbank. There are some of Mr. Bell's tenants who have fished along with me, and there was nothing said to them any more than to me because they did not fish at Skerries.

Brae, January 10, 1872, ANDREW TULLOCH, examined.

5426. Where do you live?-In a town called Brough, near Mossbank.

5427. Whom do you fish for?-I have been fishing for myself for two years, and my fish have been sold to Mr. Leask and delivered at Lerwick.

5428. Do you cure for yourself?-Yes; I get a man to cure my fish.

5429. Do you engage a man to cure the whole fish of your boat's crew?-Yes; it is a small boat. There are three men and two boys in the crew.

5430. Do you think you make more of your fish in that way than if you delivered them green to a fishcurer?-I think so.

5431. Does Mr. Leask buy them from you cured?-Yes.

5432. He also cures fish himself?-Yes.

5433. When is the price fixed for your fish?-I think it was on 1st November last that we were paid.

5434. You take all your fish to Lerwick at once, once a year, and you get your money paid to you at the time?-Yes.

5435. Is it paid to you in cash?-Yes.

5436. Do you deal at any shop of Mr. Leask's?-No. I commonly deal at Mossbank, at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop.

5437. Do you deal for cash?-Yes.

5438. You pay ready money for what you get?-Yes. Sometimes I take things on credit too; but I am not compelled to do it. I need not do it unless I choose.

5439. Then you are perfectly free to fish for anybody you like, or for yourself if you prefer it?-Yes; and I think it is the best way to fish for myself.

5440. Is that a common thing in your neighbourhood?-It is not.

5441. Why don't the men in your neighbourhood adopt that system if it is the best way?-I don't know. I think for myself, and I suppose other people do the same.

5442. On whose ground are you?-I am on ground belonging to the estate of Busta.

5443. Are the fishermen on the Busta estate all free?-Yes.

5444. There is no tacksman over them, but the fishermen as a rule fish to anybody they like?-I suppose they do; at least, so far as I know, that is the case.

5445. In what way do you think you make more of the fish by curing them yourself than by selling them green?-When I cure them or get them cured for myself, and sell them, I think I can get the turn upon them; and I get cash, which enables me to buy my goods where I can get them cheapest.

5446. Do you get goods cheaper at the shop at Mossbank by paying cash than if you were getting them on credit?-No.

5447. Do you pay the same price for goods there in cash as if they were to be settled for at the end of the year?-Yes.

5448. Have you tried both ways?-Yes.

5449. How long is it since you began to cure your own fish?-It is only two years ago.

5450. How much did you make during the last two years for each man's share?-For the last year we had £8, 13s. each.

5451. Do you think that was more than the average of men who fished for other people?-Yes; taking the price of green fish, I think it was.

5452. Do you know what any of your neighbours got for their green fish?-They got 8s. for ling, and 6s. 6d. for cod and tusk. These were the prices I heard.

5453. Were you fishing during the whole season?-Yes.

5454. How many cwts. of cured fish did you take to Mr. Leask?-I think we had thirty odd cwt. of cured fish; one part of that was ling, and one part was tusk and cod. We had about nineteen cwt. of ling and we sold them at £23.

[Page 135]

5455. When you say that the price for ling is 8s. a cwt., that is the price for green ling?-Yes.

5456. And 21/4 -cwt. of green ling make one cwt. dry?-Yes; that is what the fish-curers calculate upon.

5457. So that nineteen cwt. of cured fish would have been something less than forty-three cwt. green, and you got £23 for that?-Yes.

5458. But from that price you must allow something for the expense of curing?-Yes; it would be from £2 to £2, 10s. per ton for curing.

5459. So that you made some profit by selling your fish in that way?-Yes.

5460. Do you think that, when you cure for yourself, you have any benefit by having the money in your hands to buy goods with where you please?-I think so.

5461. Do you buy cheaper when you have the money in your hands?-Yes; we can buy cheaper in Lerwick than we can do elsewhere.

5462. Do you often buy things at Lerwick?-Some times I do.

5463. I thought you said you bought generally at Mossbank?- Some things I buy at Mossbank; but I buy at several places.

5464. If you were fishing for a particular fish-merchant, would you buy more at his shop than you do when you are fishing for yourself?-That is the general way.

5465. What is the reason for that?-Because a great many of the men have not money to go anywhere else.

5466. And therefore they are induced to go where they can get credit?-Yes.

5467. You think that is not such a good way of doing as curing for yourself, and having the money in your own hands?-It is not; but, at the same time, even when I was fishing to a particular fish-curer, I endeavoured to keep my credit; and if I had asked money from him to go on with, I would have got money as well as goods.

5468. It would not have been refused; but I suppose you would have got more advanced to you in goods than in money?-I could not say that.

5469. Suppose that in July, about the middle of the season, when about half of your fish had been caught, you wanted supplies: would you generally be allowed in the fish-merchant's shop to get any quantity of goods you liked on credit?-Yes.

5470. And would you at that time be advanced any amount of money that you chose to ask?-Yes; on a moderate scale. I could get money as well as goods.

5471. Suppose you were likely to get £20 as the amount of your fish account at the end of the season and that one half of the season was over, would they allow you to run up an account at the fish-merchant's shop to the amount of £10 or £12 to the end of July?-I don't know. I never tried the experiment.

5472. But you know the practice among your neighbours and in the shops where you deal: do you think there would be any objection to allow an account to run up to £10 or £15 for shop goods?-I don't think there would. .

5473. Would there be any objection to advancing you £10 or £15 in money?-I could not say that.

5474. Was that ever tried by anybody you know?-No; I never tried it myself, and I never heard of it being tried, and therefore I cannot say whether it would be allowed or not.

5475. But you have no doubt you would get £12 or £15 in goods?-I have little doubt that I would,-that is, if I were fishing for that particular fish-curer.

5476. What fish-curer were you employed by last?-When I was last employed by any one, it was Mr. Pole, Mossbank.

5477. At that time did you deal at his shop for your supplies?- Yes; for the most part. I dealt more with him then than I have done since.

5478. Your account was settled, at the end of the year?-Yes.

5479. What kind of account had you generally at settling time for supplies to your family?-I cannot recollect exactly how much it was; but sometimes it may have been £3 or £4.

5480. Then you will not be spending so much as that in the shop now?-No; I have not had occasion to do it for the last two years.

5481. Were you under any sort of obligation to deal at Mr. Pole's shop more than at another shop when you were fishing for him?- Not a bit. They did not prevent me from going anywhere I chose. When I chose to ask anything in their shop, I took it at their own price; but if I did not like it, they did not compel me to take it.

5482. Is there anything else you want to say on the subject of this inquiry?-For my part, I have little to say, because I am not so much concerned in it as some men are. I have my freedom and my liberty.

5483. You think that some other men are more interested in these matters than you?-Yes.

5484. In what way are they interested?-Owing to their circumstances; some of them have families, and they must go to the fish-curer and be supplied by him. They get most of their payment in goods, and they cannot get money.

5485. How can they not get money? Is it because they run up an account at the merchant's shop?-Yes.

5486. But they will get money if they ask it?-Yes; they might get money too.

5487. Why is it that they do not get money?-I don't know. What I mean is, that if they run up an account at the shop, they cannot have money of their own with which to buy things cheaper elsewhere.

5488. What makes them run up an account for goods? Is it because they cannot get money easily?-Very likely it is.

5489. But you say they would get money if they asked it?-If they were to ask for money, I don't see any reason why they should not get it as well as goods.

5490. And to the same amount?-I cannot say for that.

5492. Do you mean that the money which they would get if they were asking for it in the course of the fishing season would be regarded as a loan, and not as a payment for their fishing?-No.

5492. Suppose a man were to ask a fish-curer for an advance of money in July, would not that advance of money in July, would not that advance be looked upon as if he were asking for a loan of money?-No; that is not generally the way they would do. If I were fishing to a fish-curer, and giving him my fish, and if I were to ask for some money, it would just go to my account in the same way as if I was taking out goods until the fish were sold at the end of the year when I settled, and my fish would pay for that money as well as for the goods.

5493. But would it not be considered a favour to give money in that way?-I don't think so.

5494. Do you think the fish-curer would be bound to give you money if you asked for it in the beginning of the season?-Yes.

5495. And would he be as ready to give it to you as he would be to give you goods?-No; I don't think he could be expected to do that. However, I cannot say much upon that subject, because I never asked for much money,

5496. Did you think it would be asking a favour to ask for money?-I cannot say.

5497. Did you think the merchant would rather give you goods?- Of course he would expect us to take the goods, from the way of dealing which prevails.

5498. Do you mean that the practice is for the men to get goods advances rather than cash advances during the season and before the settlement?-That depends upon the circumstances of the men who are fishing. Sometimes they require money to pay their rent with, and that is generally advanced to them in money; but when they require goods they usually take them from the fish-curer by whom they are employed.

5499. Do you mean that they don't get money unless it is required by them for some particular purpose?-No; unless they have money to get on their own earnings. If they have money over at settlement time, they will get it in cash when the account is balanced.

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5500. Of course they get it at settlement time; but before then can they get money from the man who employs them, unless for some particular purpose?-No.

5501. Any advances that are made then are made in goods?-Yes; unless they are required in money.

Brae, January 10, 1872, JOHN HENDERSON, examined.

5502. You are a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am.

5503. On whose land do you live?-On Sheriff Bell's.

5504. Are you bound to fish to any particular merchant?-No; not unless I go to the Skerries.

5505. Who do you fish for just now?-For Mr. Pole.

5506. Are you settled with at the end of the year like the other men?-Yes.

5507. Do you deal at Mr. Pole's shop?-Very little.

5508. Where else do you go for your articles?-To any shop where I think I can get them cheapest and best.

5509. You are quite at liberty to go where you please?-I am.

5510. You can deal at Lerwick or at Voe, without running any chance of losing your engagement for the next season?-I can.

5511. Have you generally a good lot of cash to get from Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., at the end of the year?-I have generally the principal part of my earning to get.

5512. Why don't you deal more at Mr. Pole's store?-Because, when I have money, and can go anywhere else, I can perhaps get my goods a little cheaper.

5513. Is it not handy for you to deal at the Mossbank shop?-It is handy, but it is no great hardship for me to go anywhere else if I think I can get my things a little cheaper.

5514. Can you tell me any articles that are cheaper in the one place than in the other?-Meal, for instance, is always higher in Mossbank than it is in Lerwick. Taking the meal from Mossbank at the retail price, there will be a difference of perhaps 8s. or 9s. per sack on that, and on buying a sack in Lerwick for cash. The sack is 280 lbs. weight, or 2 bolls, and that is a difference of 4s. or 4s. 6d. per boll.

5515. When did you try that?-I have tried it now for a good few years.

5516. Is that the difference if you buy it wholesale,-a sack at a time?-Yes.

5517. If you were buying a sack at Mr. Pole's store, how much would you pay for it?-I have never been under the necessity of buying a sack there. What meal I have bought at their shop has always been in small quantities: perhaps about a quarter boll weekly.

5518. What is the price of a quarter boll?-It is different prices: sometimes higher and sometimes lower.

5519. What did you pay for it last?-I have not had a quarter boll of meal from Mossbank this year at all, because last year we thought it too dear, and therefore we gave up taking it.

5520. Tell me any particular time when you bought meal at Mossbank, and found that at the same time, or within a short time after it or before it, you could have got the same meal in Lerwick for less money?-Not the past summer, but the summer before, I had meal from Mossbank, taking it in small portions as it was required, such as a quarter boll weekly; and at the same date, when I was getting these small portions, I got meal from Lerwick to my own house for about 10s. of difference on the sack,-only the meal that I bought from Lerwick was a whole sack, and ready money was given for it, while the meal bought from Mossbank was in small portions, and it was got on credit until the time of settlement.

5521. Do you think that difference was not accounted for by the difference between wholesale and retail prices?-For instance, would you not have got the two bolls at Mossbank, if you had bought that quantity there, as cheaply as you got them at Lerwick?-No; there would have been 5s. of difference if I had bought two bolls there.

5522. But there would be the expense of carrying the meal from Lerwick: that would be worth something?-That was 8d., and the shipping of it 2d.

5523. Is there any other article you think you have an advantage on in the same way?-Yes; there are different articles. For instance, lines are one principal thing we require, and for my sixth share, I would have nineteen lines in my bundle.

5524. Do you buy your own lines?-I do.

5525. Is it the practice with men fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co. to do so?-Some of them do, and some do not; some of them have lines of their own; some buy them and pay for them by instalments; and others hire them. Last year I went to Lerwick and bought my own lines; and my nineteen lines, when they were ready to go to sea, cost me £2, 1s. I heard some of the men who were in the boat say that their portion of the lines, of the same quantity, cost them 51s. or 52s.; that would be paid for at settlement.

5526. Could they have got them cheaper at Mossbank if they had paid for them there in cash?-I could not say for that, because I never inquired into it.

5527. Is there anything else you can mention which you can buy cheaper elsewhere than you can at Mossbank?-If a man has ready money, he will always get little discount wherever he may purchase his goods.

5528. Then I suppose it is the fault of the men themselves that they do not get their ready money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and use it as they like?-Mr. Pole won't refuse money to any man who has it to get; or if he knows he is an honest man, he will give him an advance of money, although he does not have it earned.

5529. But if a man could carry on to the end of the year, he would get all the price of his fish in cash?-Every penny.

5530. And then he could do with it as he pleased, and buy where he chose?-Yes; he could go to any place that was cheapest.

5531. Have you heard the evidence of James Hay and Andrew Tulloch?-Yes.

5532. Do you think that what they stated about the system of things here was generally correct?-I cannot say that there was much wrong in what they said; but I think there would not be a better plan than ready money if it could be obtained.

5533. Would not all the fishermen get ready money if they contracted to have a fixed price for their fish, to be paid to them as the fish were delivered?-They would. There is no fish-merchant who would not pay them the value of their fish in money if they have it to get; but how can they get it in money if they take it out in goods? They cannot expect that.

5534. But if the men made a bargain that they were to be paid in money for their fish every time they were delivered, they would not take it out in goods then?-No; they would have money.

5535. Is that ever done? Is the bargain ever made for a fixed price at the beginning of the season to be paid according to the weight of fish when it is delivered and every time it is delivered?-No; I never had that bargain, and I never heard of it.

5536. Have you ever heard of any different bargain from the common one of settling at the end of the year?-Yes; there is sometimes a difference in the bargains with regard to the lines, when men have lines of their own, and do not require to hire them.

5537. But in all those cases the settlement is at the end of the year

5538. Have you heard of any bargain for settling at another time than at the end of the year, and in a different way?-No.

5539. Did you ever know of men agreeing to fish for wages?-Not in the ling-fishing.

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5540. Do you think free men would agree to that?-I don't know: some of them might.

5541. Would you agree to it?-I would just as soon run my own chance.

Brae, January 10, 1872, GILBERT BLANCE, examined.

5542. You are a fisherman at Mid Garth?-Yes; in the immediate neighbourhood of Mossbank.

5543. Do you hold land under Mr. Bell?-No; the landlord under whom I held is dead, and the property is now under trustees. Mr. Sievwright, writer, Lerwick, is the factor for it.

5544. Are you under any obligation to fish to a particular fish-curer?-No.

5545. You can fish for anybody you please?-Yes.

5546. For whom do you fish?-For Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.,

5547. Do you deal at their shop for all your goods?-Yes.

5548. Do you find that you have generally a balance to receive in cash at the settlement?-No; I have generally had a balance against me. I have never had a balance in cash to receive except in two special years. One of these was one year when they were paying 8s. per cwt. for the green fish; and the other was the past year, when they were also paying 8s.

5549. Do you think you are as well served at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop as you would be if you took your money and spent it where you pleased?-I don't know much about the difference in that respect.

5550. Have you ever made any comparison between the prices which you pay for your goods at their shop, and what you would pay for them elsewhere?-No, I have never tried that.

5551. What is generally the amount of the balance against you at the end of the year?-It may range from £17 to £5.

5552. Do you get any payments in cash in the course of the year?-No; very seldom. When men are in debt there are no payments in cash; but if I need a little money, I can call upon them for that assistance.

5553. Do you mean when you want money for rent, or anything of that sort?-Yes, for rent.

5554. Do you consider that you are under any obligation to engage to fish for them in consequence of being in debt in that way?-I consider myself obliged to fish to them so long as I am indebted to them.

5555. Have you ever thought of engaging to fish for another company, or attempted to do so?-I have thought of it, but I did not think it was giving them fair play to offer my services to fish for another when I was indebted to them.

5556. Do you know many men, who are fishing to them, and who are indebted to them in the same way?-Yes; there are different men I know who are indebted to them, perhaps not to so large an extent, but still to some extent.

5557. Do they consider it fair to continue to fish to the merchants to whom they are in debt rather than to engage with another?-We hear them say very little about that.

5558. They don't complain?-No; we don't hear them complain much.

5559. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if you were to engage with any one else?-We might make better bargains with other men, but we cannot attempt to do that in our present way of fishing.

5560. Is that because in the present way of fishing no price is fixed?-Yes; no price is fixed until the end of the year.

5561. Do you think the price fixed at the end of the year ought sometimes to be higher than it is?-We sometimes do think that, because, as has been already stated by the witnesses, although we are fishing for the whole season, we don't know what we are to obtain for our fish. That depends upon the market which the merchant has to make for the fish before he can pay the value of them. The price will range from 8s. to 4s. 6d., according to the markets they make.

5562. The fishermen, I understand, have nothing to do with fixing the price?-Nothing whatever.

5563. Have you ever cured your own fish?-No.

5564. Nor sold them?-No.

5565. Have you any reason to believe that the current price as fixed by the fish-merchants is not the fair value of the fish throughout the season?-Some of the fishermen think they don't get so much for their fish as they ought to get, but perhaps that may be a mistake on the part of the men.

5566. We are all apt to be a little discontented; but do you think there is any reason for that belief more than the natural tendency of the men to discontent?-I cannot say whether there is any real ground for that belief or not.

5567. You cannot tell any case in which you thought you got less for your fish than you ought to have got?-I could not mention any particular instance of that, because we never see the account of sales which the merchants make of the fish.

5568. Do you know when the fish sales take place?-I think it is some time about the month of November.

5569. How soon after that are you told what you are to get for your take?-When we come to settle, either on the last of November or the first of December..

5570. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses: do you think it was generally correct?-I think it was very correct, so far as I know.

5571. Has your experience with regard to the system of dealing been the same as was described by them?-It has been the same as the last witness described.

5572. But you don't know whether you got goods dearer at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop than you could get them elsewhere?-No, I don't know anything about that, because all we require, such as meal, lines, calico, and other things, comes from their shop.

5573. What price do you pay for meal?-We don't usually buy meal in wholesale, as the last witness did, but probably in pecks or two pecks or lispunds.

5574. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.

5575. Why not?-Because we trust to the honesty of the merchants.

5576. Do they not want you to take a pass-book?-They would have no objection to us having one, but many of us are not good arithmeticians, and we could not make much of them although we had them.

5577. When you were out fishing, have you sometimes sold your fish to others than Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I have not been in the habit of doing that.

5578. Is it sometimes done?-Perhaps it is by some individuals.

5579. What is their reason for doing that?-I cannot say what their reason may be, unless it is to have immediate supplies.

5580. Or money?-Yes, or money; but it is commonly for something such as refreshments which they wish to take on their way to or coming from the fishing-ground.

5581. Where do you usually meet the people who buy your fish from you in that way?-Sometimes they are met in the course of our fishing operations at the land's end.

5582. On the land?-No; on the sea in a little boat. They will take any small portion of fish we may give them, and hand us refreshments in return.

5583. Do you get a larger sum for your fish in that way?-No; I never knew of any larger sum that was given in that way than the country currency.

5584. Is that practice what you call smuggling the fish?-I suppose so.

5585. Do you think it is much done?-It is not much done now. Formerly it was done to some extent, but not to any great extent.

5586. I suppose there were some factors or merchants in the country who did it good deal in buying fish on the sly in that way at one time?-I believe there was at one time, but not so much now.

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5587. Did they give a higher price for the fish than the fish-curers give?-Yes.

5588. Was it a higher price than the currency?-Yes.

5589. Are there it few of these men still?-Yes.

5590. They do come from Lerwick?-No; they are just people living in the country.

5591. Do they buy the fish either green or cured?-They will take them more readily green than cured, because they cure them for themselves. The factor who buys generally cures for himself.

5592. Is the man who buys fish in that way generally a merchant who keeps a shop himself somewhere?-Generally he has a small bit of a shop.

Brae, January 10, 1872, THOMAS MOUNTFORD ADIE, examined.

5593. You are a fish-merchant, and the principal partner of the firm of T.M. Adie & Co. Voe?-Yes, the business is conducted in my own name, but my sons have an interest in it.

5594. Do you employ a great number of fishermen?-Yes, a large number.

5595. Are the contracts which you enter into with them different in some of their details?-As a rule they are much the same.

5596. Although there may be some difference, the general rule is, that in the home fishing the fisherman delivers his fish to you at a price that is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes.

5597. Have you tried to arrange with your fishermen for dealings upon any different system from that?-I have not.

5598. Have you not on one or two occasions made different arrangements?-On one or two occasions I have made contracts with some of them for a fixed price.

5599. That price being fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes.

5600. Has that generally turned out well?-It did not turn out well in these cases. The price advanced in the course of the season, and I had to pay the men the advanced price in order to satisfy them.

5601. Would the men have been discontented otherwise?-Yes.

5602. Is it long since that happened?-It is several years now; perhaps 12 or 14 years ago.

5603. Do you think it would be any advantage for the curer or the fishermen if that system were generally adopted?-My impression is, that the fishermen would suffer, for this reason, that fish in the summer season are always sold at a less price, and any one buying green fish must calculate what he can give for them according to the value of the article then. By delaying the settlement till the end of the season, the fishermen take the chance of the price either rising or falling, but the probability is that it will rise, because salt fish usually sell better in the winter season than in summer.

5604. So that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the year, you think it would generally be fixed too low?-Yes.

5605. But both the fishermen and the master would take into account at the beginning of the season the probability of the price rising in winter, and the fact that it generally does rise then, would they not?-It is scarcely likely that that would be much taken into account; because when a man buys an article he buys it at the price of the day, and not at what the price of it may become. There is no doubt that would be a more satisfactory way of dealing if it could be done but I don't see how it could be adopted, because no curer could offer to buy fish offhand at a price that would satisfy the fishermen.