ELEVENTH CONGRESS.—THIRD SESSION. PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, December 3, 1810.

This being the day appointed by the constitution for the meeting of Congress, the following members of the House of Representatives appeared and took their seats, to wit:

From New Hampshire—James Wilson.

From Massachusetts—Ezekiel Bacon, William Ely, and Joseph B. Varnum, Speaker.

From Vermont—Samuel Shaw.

From Connecticut—Epaphroditus Champion, John Davenport, jr., Jonathan O. Mosely, Timothy Pitkin, jr., and Benjamin Tallmadge.

From New York—James Emott, Jonathan Fisk, Robert Le Roy Livingston, Erastus Root, Thomas Sammons, John Thompson, Uri Tracy, and Killian K. Van Rensselaer.

From New Jersey—Adam Boyd, Jacob Hufty, and Henry Southard.

From, Pennsylvania—William Anderson, David Bard, Robert Brown, William Crawford, William Findlay, Daniel Heister, Aaron Lyle, William Milnor, John Rea, Matthias Richards, Adam Seybert, John Smilie, George Smith, Samuel Smith, and Robert Whitehill.

From Maryland—Charles Goldsborough, Alexander McKim, Philip B. Key, Archibald Van Horne, John Montgomery, and Nicholas R. Moore.

From Virginia—James Breckinridge, William A. Burwell, Matthew Clay, John Dawson, David S. Garland, Thomas Gholson, Peterson, Goodwyn, Joseph Lewis, jr., Thomas Newton, John Roane, and James Stephenson.

From North Carolina—Willis Alston, jr., James Cochran, James Holland, Thomas Kenan, Nathaniel Macon, Archibald McBryde, Joseph Pearson, Richard Stanford, and John Stanley.

From South Carolina—Lemuel J. Alston, William Butler, Joseph Calhoun, Thomas Moore, John Taylor, and Robert Witherspoon,.

From Georgia—William W. Bibb, Howell Cobb, and George M. Troup.

From Kentucky—Joseph Desha, Richard M. Johnson, and Samuel McKee.

From Tennessee—Pleasant M. Miller, John Rhea, and Robert Weakley.

From Ohio—Jeremiah Morrow.

Several new members, to wit: from Connecticut, Ebenezer Huntington, returned to serve in the place of Samuel W. Dana, appointed a Senator of the United States; from New Jersey, John A. Scudder, in the place of James Cox, deceased; and from Maryland, Robert Wright, in the place of John Brown, resigned; appeared, produced their credentials, were qualified, and took their seats.

A quorum, consisting of a majority of the whole House, being present, the Clerk of the House was directed to acquaint the Senate therewith.

On motion of Mr. Dawson, a committee was appointed on the part of the House, jointly with the committee appointed on the part of the Senate, to wait on the President of the United States, and inform him that a quorum of the two Houses is assembled, and ready to receive any communications he may be pleased to make to them.

The Clerk of the House was directed to procure newspapers from any number of offices that the members may elect, provided that the expense do not exceed the amount of three daily papers.

The House then adjourned until to-morrow morning eleven o'clock.

Tuesday, December 4.

Several other members, to wit: from Massachusetts, Richard Cutts, Ebenezer Seaver, and Charles Turner, jr.; from Rhode Island, Elisha R. Potter; from New York, Thomas R. Gold; from Pennsylvania, Robert Jenkins; and from Virginia, Burwell Bassett and John W. Eppes, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

A new member, to wit, from New York, Samuel L. Mitchill, returned to serve in the place of William Denning, resigned, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.

Jonathan Jennings, the Delegate from the Indiana Territory, and Julian Poydras, the Delegate from the Territory of Orleans, appeared, and took their seats.

A message from the Senate informed the House that a quorum of the Senate is assembled, and ready to proceed to business. They have appointed a committee on their part, jointly with the committee appointed on the part of this House, to inform the President of the United States, that a quorum of the two Houses is assembled, and ready to receive any communications that he may be pleased to make to them.

Mr. Dawson, from the joint committee appointed to wait on the President of the United States, reported that the committee had performed the service assigned them, and that the President answered that he would make a communication to the two Houses of Congress to-morrow at twelve o'clock.

Wednesday, December 5.

Several other members, to wit: from New Hampshire, Daniel Blaisdell and John C. Chamberlain; from Massachusetts, J. Quincy, Samuel Taggart, and Laban Wheaton; from Vermont, William Chamberlin, Martin Chittenden, and Jonathan H. Hubbard; from Connecticut, Lewis B. Sturges; from New York, Vincent Matthews, Peter B. Porter, and Ebenezer Sage; and from Rhode Island, Richard Jackson, jr., appeared, and took their seats in the House.

A Message was received from the President of the United States, which was read at the Clerk's table.

[For this Message see Senate Proceedings of this date, ante page.]

The documents accompanying the Message having been read, in part, the House adjourned.

Thursday, December 6.

The Speaker laid before the House certificates of the election of Ebenezer Huntington, of Connecticut; John A. Scudder, of New Jersey; Robert Wright, of Maryland; and William McKinley, returned to supply the vacancy occasioned by the resignation of John G. Jackson, of Virginia; which were referred to the Committee of Elections.

Friday, December 7.

Another member, to wit, from New Jersey, William Helms, appeared, and took his seat in the House; also, a new member, to wit, from Maryland, Samuel Ringgold, returned to serve in the place of Roger Nelson, resigned, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

Monday, December 10.

Several other members, to wit: from Massachusetts, Gideon Gardner; from New York, Gurdon S. Mumford; from Pennsylvania, John Porter; from Virginia, John Love and Daniel Sheffey; and from North Carolina, Lemuel Sawyer, appeared, and took their seats.

The Speaker laid before the House a certificate of the election of William T. Barry, elected to supply the vacancy occasioned by the resignation of Benjamin Howard, of Kentucky; which was referred to the Committee of Elections.

Tuesday, December 11.

Several other members, to wit: from New York, Herman Knickerbacker; from Virginia, Edwin Gray and Jacob Swoope; and from South Carolina, Richard Wynn, appeared, and took their seats.

Wednesday, December 12.

Two other members, to wit: from North Carolina, Meshack Franklin and William Kennedy, appeared, and took their seats.

Thursday, December 13.

Another member, to wit, from Georgia, Dennis Smelt, appeared, and took his seat; also two other new members, to wit: Joseph Allen, from Massachusetts, in the place of Jabez Upham, resigned, and William T. Barry, from Kentucky, in the place of Benjamin Howard, resigned, appeared, were qualified, and took their seats.

Apportionment Bill.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill to apportion the Representatives according to the third enumeration of the people of the United States.

The question recurring on filling the blank with the number of souls which should entitle to a Representative—

Mr. Macon said he was decidedly of opinion that the ratio ought to be fixed, before the result of the census was known. He had no objection to a moderate increase of the number of members; if they amounted to so many that one side of the House could not hear the other side speak, debate was at end, and the purposes of deliberative legislation defeated. He should have liked the bill better, he said, if it had declared that the House of Representatives should hereafter consist of a certain number of members, and had left the apportionment then to be made according to the population. On the subject of electioneering, he said it became him at least to say, that that portion of the people who sent him here, had not been concerned in it. Whatever might have been the practice elsewhere, so far as concerned his constituents, there had been no going about or haranguing. And, on the subject of electioneering, said he, wherever the people are free, there will be electioneering. It belongs to free government. Possibly different parts of the country may differ as to the mode. In some, men go themselves about electioneering; in others, their friends do it for them. In some, newspaper publications help an election; in others, they destroy it. In some places, I have heard, the sacred pulpit is not free from it; in others, a divine would be destroyed that would attempt it. There was not more electioneering South, Mr. M. believed, than elsewhere; certain he was that candidates could not there spend the sums of money which he had heard of being spent elsewhere in an election. He concluded by saying he was in favor of a moderate increase of representatives. He was not afraid that, from a multitude of counsellors, nothing would be done; it was quite as much to be feared from too few that they would act rashly.

Friday, December 14.

Another member, to wit, from Massachusetts, Abijah Bigelow, elected to supply the vacancy occasioned by the resignation of William Stedman, appeared, was qualified, and took his seat.

Apportionment Bill.

Mr. Gold considered this bill as a very important one, as fixing the construction to be put on a provision of the constitution. While, on the one hand, it might be admitted that business would be in general better done by a small number of Representatives, yet, on the other hand, there were important considerations in favor of a large number, as gentlemen would find by referring to the discussions at the period of the adoption of the constitution. It was then feared by some that the representation of so great a people would be too small. If gentlemen would refer to a number of papers, drawn up by an association of gentlemen, at that time, and published under the title of "The Federalist," they would find various arguments used to induce the Legislature to make the representation full; so that, at that period, no apprehensions had existed of the Representatives becoming too numerous. On the contrary, it was supposed that the public confidence would be impaired by having a small delegation. In adverting to the relaxed state of the Union, and how much it was exposed to be shook by attempts to weaken it, it was supposed that public confidence would be inspired, and general satisfaction given, by the selection of a large number. It was true, Mr. G. said, that representation might swell so much as to operate to the exclusion of legislation; but the House of Representatives would not, even if the present ratio were retained, be so numerous as many other legislative bodies in the Union. He had no objection to increasing the numbers of the House of Representatives to such an amount as would permit public business to be done with facility. Gentlemen might differ as to the precise ratio; but, while they argued in favor of a small number, from the inconvenience of a large delegation, he hoped they would conceive with him that well-grounded apprehensions might be entertained of the evils which would result from its being too small.

Mr. Mitchill said he was in favor of the largest number proposed; and, not having been able to obtain that, he should vote for the largest on which a majority could agree. In the district represented by his colleague (Mr. Mumford) and himself, there was probably one hundred and twenty thousand souls, and yet he had not heard any murmuring that they were not adequately represented.

Congress, Mr. M. said, did not convene here to legislate on all the subjects of the rights of citizens. Our Government is, he contended, a peculiar piece of machinery, an imperium in imperio. The Representatives to Congress left behind them Legislatures, whose province it was to take care of the personal rights and the rights of property of our citizens. With these concerns, said Mr. M., we have nothing to do. We meet here under a constitution expressly framed and devised for legislating on select subjects, which, on account of the generality of their nature, could not be confided to the several States. When, then, we consider the narrow grounds we have to legislate on, that our great privileges are left at home, we shall be convinced that there is no occasion that this body should be as numerous as if we were concerned in the great questions of property and right, which are secured by the constitution, under the guardianship of the State Legislatures, and of the courts for the furthering of justice. If I were to quote a precedent of a Legislature for commanding influence, and for wisdom and sagacity in carrying us through an arduous contest whilst struggling for our liberties, I should quote the Old Congress—limited in number, but remarkable for the honesty and fidelity with which they performed what a more numerous body could not have accomplished. And, if I wished to cite an instance of the evils to be dreaded from a numerous assembly, I should quote the National Convention of France, where representatives, assembling in great number, exhibited such a spectacle of disorder as I hope we shall never, by a multitude of counsellors, run the risk of imitating.

Mr. Pitkin said that he had not expected that a bill of so much importance would have progressed so far, and gone through the Committee of the Whole in so rapid a manner as this had. What, he asked of the House, was settled by the passage of this bill? Nothing was, or could be settled by the present Congress, unless the returns were made from the different States of the number of inhabitants in each State, before the bill became a law; for Congress alone could designate and specify the number of Representatives which each State should send. The laws heretofore passed, designating the number of Representatives, had, at the same time, declared the ratio, and specified the number of Representatives of each State. Congress alone were competent to decide on the legality of the returns, and on their act alone could the State Legislatures proceed. Mr. P. presumed no member would say that it should be left to the Executive, or any Department of the Government, to say how many Representatives each State should send to Congress. The present Congress might fix the ratio as they pleased, but it would not be obligatory on the next Congress, who could, and undoubtedly would, modify or reverse it as they should think proper. This bill was, therefore, premature, and, in fact, would not settle the principle which it proposed to decide. He was, therefore, on this ground, opposed to the passage of this bill; and he believed the inconvenience of deciding it now would be greater than if the business were to rest until after the returns were made.

Mr. Quincy said that the agitation of this question at the present moment had taken him as much by surprise as it had the gentleman from Connecticut. He had no idea that a question so pregnant with interest would be hurried through the House in this way. His object in rising was to obtain a postponement of the question till some time in the next week, for the consideration of a point, which to his mind was important. He objected to the bill on the principle that it would be a violation of the constitution to pass it. It went to establish a ratio which, in its effect, must be abortive. The constitution says:

"Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and, excluding Indians not taxed, three-fifths of all other persons. The actual enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each State shall have at least one Representative."

The constitution then had specifically made it the duty of the House to apportion the representation of each State according to its respective numbers. Was it not, he asked, infinitely absurd and a direct violation of the constitution, to apportion the representation before these numbers were known? When the constitution had made it a duty to do a thing according to a standard prescribed, would they do that thing before that standard could be in possession of the House? Suppose that in 1791, before the numbers of the States were known, Congress had undertaken to fix the ratio of representation—would not the Hall have rung with the exclamations that it was a violation of the constitution? And how would this bill, Mr. Q. asked, less violate the constitution than such an act would have done? For, as to the numbers to be ascertained by the present census, Congress were as little competent to decide as they were before any census was taken. This was the ground on which he objected to the bill as unconstitutional, and which he wished an opportunity thoroughly to examine. He therefore moved that the bill lie on the table.

Mr. Fisk said it had been deemed desirable to fix the ratio before the numbers of each State were ascertained, so as to avoid the difficulty which would arise from the fractions, and to afford an accommodation to the State Legislatures, which would be in session before the next meeting of Congress. It would indeed be necessary to pass a law declaring the number of Representatives to be sent by each State; but that would be a mere matter of form, if the ratio were previously ascertained by law.

Mr. F. treated the idea of this bill's being unconstitutional, as altogether unwarranted by fact; for it did not fix the apportionment, but merely the ratio, according to which the Representatives should be apportioned among the States when their respective numbers were known.

Mr. Wright was in favor of postponing, and decidedly opposed to the bill. He was against it, because it proposed to bestow on others a power residing in Congress. If this law were to pass, could the Secretary of State be authorized to declare the number of Representatives to which each State was entitled? Could Congress transfer to him legislative power, and authorize him to declare of how many members this body should consist? He presumed not. The power was vested in Congress, and not in the Secretary of State. But gentlemen were desirous now to fix the number of souls which should entitle to a Representative—and why? That the State Legislatures, understanding the number of Representatives to which they are entitled from knowing the census, may proceed to district their States, in anticipation of the law to be passed by Congress. But their acts would not be conclusive, because Congress might change the ratio, and they would have to undo all they had done. Mr. W. hoped that this business would be postponed, until, as heretofore, Congress would be possessed of all the information of which the nature of the case would admit. When the census was received from the President of the United States they would be much better able to act than now. In this case, Mr. W. said he held himself imperiously bound to follow the steps of his predecessors. He held it a correct maxim in general, that the practice of to-day should be the precedent for to-morrow. Why need they decide this business immediately? There was yet some months in the session, and time enough to reflect on the subject. Why legislate by halves? If this law were passed, Mr. W. asked, was it perfect? Did it declare to how many Representatives each State should be entitled? He said he could refer to cases in which errors had occurred in the census; and it was in the power of the House alone to correct any errors which might have escaped the Secretary of State. In Maryland a mistake had occurred in the last enumeration, of thirty or forty thousand souls. He believed that a great portion of the district comprising Cecil and Hartford counties had been omitted; and he recollected perfectly well that the error was corrected; and, by turning his eye to the proceedings of that day, he could see other errors. He wished, when the House acted, that they should do it understandingly, and with all the evidence before them of which the case was susceptible. He hoped the bill would be postponed until the returns of the census were received in the usual mode.

Mr. W. Alston opposed the postponement. He was as loth to depart from old practices as the gentleman from Maryland, if those practices were found to be good. But when they proved inconvenient or useless, it was certainly right to depart from them. What, then, had experience taught them on this subject? Why, that if the ratio was not fixed before the census was known, great inconvenience would result to many States. Congress, at their last session, being apprised of the circumstance, had in their law directed that complete returns should be made to the Secretary of State by the first of March next. It was well known that, if they did not fix the ratio before the first of March, they would not be able to fix it after; when the ratio was fixed, however, the apportionment would not be the work of an hour. If it became necessary to deprive a State of a Representative, he asked whether it would not be more palatable that it should be done now than after the census was known? The State deprived of a Representative could not complain; the ratio would affect it in the same proportion, whether it gave or took a member. That argument, therefore, was entitled to no consideration. Mr. A. expressed his surprise that the small States appeared to be opposed to a large ratio; for, if it would be an advantage on any side, it would be decidedly in favor of the small States. He thought, indeed, that the Representatives of the large States, in voting for a large ratio, had shown great magnanimity and liberality.

Mr. Goldsborough was in favor of postponement, and was sorry to see the bill attempted to be hurried through. Gentlemen had not maturely considered the subject, and, on reflection, would be convinced that their votes were, if not a direct, at least an indirect, violation of the constitution. This was premature legislation on what properly belonged to the next Congress, and which, act on it as they might, would unquestionably come before Congress at their next session. If it should be found that the ratio agreed on operated unfavorably on the numbers of any State or States, they would be anxious for a reconsideration of the subject. It would be immaterial whether the subject should be brought up by a bill de novo, or by a bill to repeal this, if it should indeed become a law; the ardor of discussion would be the same in either case. If this be admitted, the only argument in favor of the bill is done away. The constitution having directed that apportionment should be made accordingly to the whole census, Mr. G. said that he could not see how Congress could fix it before they knew what that census was. He did not know that every gentleman on the floor was ignorant of any of the returns; some might be already apprised of the returns of their own State. Each one made estimates no doubt, in his own mind, as to the probable result; and, for himself, Mr. G. said he had been endeavoring to make some sort of a calculation; and if the bill passed, and the ratio should prove unfavorable to the numbers of the State which he had the honor to represent, he should feel himself bound to move a repeal of the law; and they would have the whole discussion over again.

The question on the bill's laying on the table was carried—65 to 43.

And on motion, the House adjourned until Monday.

Monday, December 17.

Another member, to wit, from New York, John Nicholson, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Tuesday, December 18.

Another member, to wit, from Massachusetts, Barzillai Gannett, appeared, and took his seat.

George Poindexter, the delegate from the Mississippi Territory, also appeared, and took his seat.

Friday, December 21.

Two other members, to wit: from Virginia, John Clopton, and Walter Jones, appeared and took their seats; a new member, to wit, William McKinley, also from Virginia, appeared, was qualified, and took his seat.

Monday, December 24.

Three other members, to wit: William Hale, from New Hampshire; Benjamin Pickman, jr., from Massachusetts; and Thomas Newbold, from New Jersey, appeared, and took their seats.

Claims for Military Services in the Old French War.

Mr. Morrow, from the Committee on the Public Lands, made a report on the several petitions of the officers and soldiers, and the heirs of officers and soldiers who served in the British army in America, in the war between Great Britain and France; which was read, and the resolution therein contained concurred in by the House.

The report is as follows:

The Committee on Public Lands, to whom was referred several petitions, claiming lands for military services, performed in the war of 1755, between Great Britain and France, report:

That, considering the subject-matter of the said petitions highly important, on account of the interest it has recently excited, and the speculation it has given rise to in various parts of the United States, the committee have carefully examined the State papers and public documents, of the period of the above war, to ascertain the original foundation of the supposed claim. In pursuing this investigation, the committee have not been able to discover that any engagement or contract whatever was made or entered into by the Government, or under the authority of Great Britain, with the officers and soldiers of the provincial troops, serving in the war aforesaid, for a grant of lands, either as an encouragement to their entering into the service, or as a compensation for services. All that the committee have been able to find on the subject is in a proclamation of the King of Great Britain, of the 7th of October, 1763, (after the closing of the war and disbanding of the troops,) and in the following words:

"And whereas we are desirous, upon all occasions, to testify our royal sense and approbation of the conduct and bravery of the officers and soldiers of our army, and to reward the same, we do hereby command and empower our Governors of the several provinces on the Continent of North America to grant, without fee or reward, to such reduced officers as have served in North America during the late war, and are actually residing there, and shall personally apply for the same, the following quantities of land, subject, at the expiration of ten years, to the same quit-rents as other lands are subject to, in the province within which they are granted, as also subject to the same conditions of cultivation and improvement, viz:

"To every person having the rank of a field officer, 5,000 acres.

"To every captain, 3,000 acres.

"To every subaltern or staff officer, 2,600 acres.

"To every non-commissioned officer, 200 acres.

"To every private man, 50 acres.

"We do likewise authorize and require the Governors and commanders-in-chief of all our said colonies, upon the Continent of North America, to grant the like quantities of land, and upon the same conditions, to such reduced officers of our navy of like rank, as served on board of our ships of war in North America, at the times of the reduction of Louisburg and Quebec, in the late war, and who shall personally apply to our respective Governors for such grants."

In this State paper, the committee can perceive no foundation whatever for the present claim upon the United States. Instead of a contract with the officers and soldiers for land, the proclamation contains a mere instruction to the provincial Governors—an instruction emanating from the munificence of the Sovereign, and for conferring a gratuity, not issued for the satisfaction of any previous claim or demand upon Government. That the grant intended by the above proclamation was rather a testimony of respect and approbation, than a donation of value, appears from the prescribed terms on which it was to be made, they being the same on which lands were granted to others in the provinces, with the exception, that the military grants were to be made free of office fees, and exempt from payment of quit-rents for ten years. Had application been made to the land offices of the provincial governments, as was the duty of all the claimants, there can be no doubt but that grants would have been readily made to the full extent of the bounty intended by the proclamation, subject, however, to the usual condition for settlement and improvement. Forty-seven years have now elapsed since the foregoing proclamation, during which period the above claims have laid dormant, and the committee do conceive, that, upon fair and just principles, those claims would have been considered derelict and abandoned had the Government, under which they arose, continued; but to admit them against the United States, placed as they now are, under a government founded on a revolution, which has intervened, is required by no principle of justice, and would, in the opinion of the committee, be an unauthorized disposition and sacrifice of the public property of the United States. On no principle of national law, or by any treaty or convention between the United States and Great Britain, are the United States bound to perform the engagements of the former government of Great Britain, especially for mere bounties; nor would the purposes for which the several States have ceded land, within their respective jurisdictions, to the United States, warrant the appropriation of those lands for the satisfaction of the claims in question, were the same better founded than by the committee they are conceived to be. The committee, therefore, beg leave to submit the following resolution:

Resolved, That the prayer of the petitioners ought not to be granted.

Monday, December 31.

Another member, to wit, from Delaware, Nicholas Van Dyke, appeared, and took his seat.

Wednesday, January 2, 1811.

Two other new members, to wit: from New Hampshire, Nathaniel A. Haven; and from Maryland, John Campbell, appeared, and took their seats.

Orleans Territory.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill for admitting the Territory of Orleans as a State into the Union.

Mr. Bibb said it was very far from his intention to oppose the passage of the bill. On the contrary, he was favorably disposed to it; but a difficulty had occurred to him which he would state as a reason for delaying a decision on the bill for the present. The bill proposed including in the State all that part of the Territory which lay west of the Perdido, &c. The President, by his Proclamation, although he had required its occupation, he declared that the right should be subject to negotiation. Now, if it became a State, would not all right of negotiation on the subject be taken from the President?

Mr. Barry said that the necessity of State government, the want of proper control by the General Government, and its inability to attend to the municipal concerns of the Territory, imperiously called upon Congress to erect it into a State. It was unimportant, as respected the ratio, that the bill should be delayed till that was ascertained. Although the precise population could not be ascertained, yet, from what had fallen from the gentlemen from Orleans and Mississippi Territories, it was probable that the Territory had already a right to become a State. Mr. B. said it was important that Congress should act on this subject, for a variety of reasons. It was a point of the Union particularly important to the country which he represented. New Orleans commanded the river through which the whole productions of the Western and of some part of the Southern country were carried to market. It became important in another respect, that the people in that country should have the power of self-government. He alluded to the necessity, in the present posture of affairs, that they should have the power of self-preservation to protect themselves in the enjoyment of their rights, and that the power resulting from State sovereignty ought therefore to be extended to them at this time. The objection which has been urged, respecting the question of title, was equally unimportant. Admitted in its full force, it would only require a modification of the bill, reserving to Congress the power of changing the boundary of the Territory; and this would be a desirable modification because of the undefined limits of the Territory. This objection did not meet the merits of the bill, but merely suggested a modification. It was important now to act on the subject, because Congress had the power to impose conditions on the Territory. If they waited until it had attained a population of 60,000, they could not say no to the demands of these people.

Mr. Sheffey said he was not prepared to act on the subject, because the materials on which to decide were not before the House. Whilst he was disposed to treat the inhabitants of the Orleans Territory as brothers, and not as vassals, he was not ready to transfer the inheritance purchased by the blood of our fathers to foreigners. While he looked upon these people as equals, and was disposed to do them justice, he thought all they could demand at his hands was to be placed on that equality to which they were entitled. It had been said that the population was this much or that much. How much?—Mr. S. asked. Sixty thousand? Forty thousand? Thirty thousand? Would any gentleman who regarded his honor tell the House that there were 30,000 inhabitants in the undisputed Territory? He believed not. And would gentlemen favor this French population at the expense of their own interests and rights? It was true indeed that Ohio became a State before she had 60,000; but the ratio of representation was then but 30,000. If he were to reason on this subject, Mr. S. said he would say, under the fostering hand of the General Government, let them become accustomed to our Government, before those were permitted to govern themselves who had so lately emerged from despotism. He was not, he said, directly hostile to the admission of this Territory into the Union; but he made these observations in answer to speculations ushered in to lead the House from its duty. They ought to have the necessary information.

Mr. Macon said he would treat these people as he would the people of every other Territory. They were a part of the nation, and so ought to be considered. There ought to be no question as to what stock they sprung from; the true question was, ought they to be a State? The true policy, Mr. M. thought, was, as they were to become a part of the United States, to make them one and indivisible as soon as possible. They had already served a sufficient apprenticeship to the United States, but not under a free Government, for the Territorial governments were not free. The advantage of exacting of them the condition of using the same language, was a great one. How could they be made one with the United States unless by the use of the same language? Mr. M. wished to treat this Territory as well as the others, and no better; he would not treat one as a daughter and the other as a step-daughter. He was as willing now to make Orleans a State as he had been to make Ohio a State. The great object is to make us one people; to make this nation one. As to the Mississippi Territory, it had not served a much longer apprenticeship than Orleans, having only been acquired by the treaty with Spain in 1795. The people of Orleans possessed certainly as strong an attachment to the nation as could be expected from the time they had belonged to it. When the Spaniards invaded the Territory, they stepped forward promptly to repel them; and when some citizens of the old States forgot the love every honest heart owes to his country, they showed their attachment to the Union by the readiness with which they lent their aid to repel them. To make them a State would make that attachment still greater, and it was therefore advisable to act on the subject.

The committee now rose, reported progress, and asked leave to sit again; but before leave was granted, the House adjourned.

Friday, January 4.

Territory of Orleans.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for admitting the Territory of Orleans into the Union as an independent State, &c.

Mr. Wheaton.—Whenever a bill is offered for our sanction, in order that it may become a law, it is proper, before we give it such sanction, that we should inquire whether the subject of it is such as we have constitutional authority to legislate upon; and if so, whether, from a consideration of time and circumstances, it be expedient so to do.

It appears to me that the bill now before us is objectionable on both these grounds, and, if so, there is a double reason why it should not pass. A few moments will be sufficient for the remarks I have to make upon either; and, if they shall be deemed of no consequence, there will be this consolation, that they will have occupied but very little time.

The subject of this bill is the Orleans Territory, and the object of it, to form that Territory into a State, the people of which are to be subject to the same duties, and entitled to the same privileges, as the people of the United States in their federative capacity. It will be observed that our constitution, by its enacting clause, was ordained and established for the then United States of America. The United States being thus included, implies an exclusion of all others. It may, therefore, be fairly concluded that those that framed this constitution, and those that adopted it, never intended that its immediate operation should extend to any people that did not then, or that should not thereafter be included within the limits of the United States; that they did not intend to enter into a partnership of this sort without some knowledge of those that should compose it, lest the improper conduct of some might end in the ruin of all. The Territory of Orleans certainly was not within the limits of the United States when the constitution was established. It was known to be otherwise. The people there were foreigners to us, and subjects of another Government. That it could not have been intended that the constitution should embrace these people and this Territory, may be argued from the extreme danger of carrying the principle into operation. If we may extend our limits at all, without the consent of the people, further than what is expressed in the constitution, who can tell where will be our ultimate bounds, or what number of States we may have in the Union? Purchase and conquest are objects of ambition. The great Napoleon may have more land to sell, and Spain now possess what she cannot retain. May we not, in time, have the whole of South America, some of the West India islands, and, possibly, Great Britain? And if so, upon the same principle that we form the Territory of Orleans into a State, we may form these Territories into as many separate States as we please, and admit them into the Union with all the powers and privileges that any of our States now possess and enjoy. Then what will become of the Old United States, who first entered into the compact contained in the constitution, and for whose benefit alone that instrument was made and executed. Instead of these new States being annexed to us, we shall be annexed to them, lose our independence, and become altogether subject to their control. Besides, it may be recollected, that, when our independence and national existence was acknowledged by the other nations of the world, the Territory now proposed to be received into the Union made no part of the United States so acknowledged; if, therefore, this be done, a jealousy may be created in those other nations, and, possibly, they may have some reason to complain that, in addition to the immense increase of population within our ancient limits, we should extend our boundaries so far as to include other countries. This, however, by those who justify the Governments of other nations in the pursuit of their projects for universal domination, will be thought deserving of very little consideration. But, it may be well questioned how far the taking of positions that may lead to war comports with that pacific disposition which the people of the United States have been so anxious to maintain; and, whether the obligation they have placed themselves under, by adopting the constitution, to guaranty to every State in the Union a republican form of government, and to protect each of them against invasion, can be made to extend to the Orleans Territory; or, whether the President can have any authority to send our militia there to repel any invasion or suppress any insurrection that may happen there, are inquiries worth some attention before we pass this act. And there will be found another difficulty in the way of carrying the object of it into full effect. If the people of that Territory are admitted into the Union as a State, on an equal footing with any of the now United States, they will have a right to send to our Legislature not only Representatives in proportion to their numbers, but, also, two Senators, and the constitution makes it a necessary qualification for a Senator that he should have been a citizen of the United States at least nine years, a period further back than it can be pretended that any of the people of that Territory ever belonged to the United States, unless they be emigrants, and have not, thereby, lost their citizenship. And a President of the United States they never can have from among their own people, unless he be yet to be born, for no person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the constitution, can be eligible to the office of President. But, it has been said that Congress have already passed a law, wherein they have stipulated with those people, that they shall be formed into a State when they shall have gained a certain number of inhabitants. In answer to this, it is sufficient to say that, if it be incorrect to promise to do a wrong thing, it is more incorrect still to do it. If this bill be unconstitutional, so was that law.

But, in opposition to all this, it will, undoubtedly, be said that several new States have been formed by Congress since the adoption of the constitution, and that they are well authorized by that instrument. This is admitted. "New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union." But, if we look into the article where this authority is to be found, we shall find it applicable to the territories then included within the limits of the United States, or to a division of some of the States then already formed; beyond which, it is believed, this authority has never been exercised. The Old Confederation did expressly authorize the admission of Canada into the Union, but the present constitution does not. If such an authority had been proposed to have been given to Congress by it, perhaps it had never been adopted.

If, however, it should be believed that this bill might pass into a law, in strict conformity with the spirit and letter of the constitution, it is apprehended that the measure would be extremely impolitic and inexpedient at the present moment. We have not even the possession of a part of the country proposed to be embraced by this bill, and both title and possession have been disputed. It is true we have bought the whole country, and dearly paid for it, but still, if we have not a just title, we ought not to expect to hold it; and it is now admitted to be a subject of negotiation; and, even if our titles shall be found to be good, and we gain a peaceable possession, still, if we have a right to buy a thing, I know not why we may not sell it. But, as the expediency of this measure has been considered by other gentlemen, I forbear to add to the remarks I have already made.

Mr. Miller said it would be observed that there were two applications to this House for admission into the Union as States; one from the Mississippi Territory, and the other from the Orleans Territory. The latter only, said he, is contemplated by the bill before you. Neither of these Territories have the number of inhabitants required by law to enable them to demand their admission into the Union as a matter of right. It may, therefore, be said with propriety to be an application for a favor, going directly to an amicable discussion, and which we may grant or refuse without running the risk of breaking any legal or moral obligation.

It has been objected against this bill that the population of the State proposed will not be American. Without intimating how far this consideration may have influence on my mind, under the circumstances in which that country has been lately placed, I cannot, however, but remark that it is natural for man to carry his feelings and prejudices about him. I was born in Virginia, sir, and I have not yet lost some of my Virginia feelings, notwithstanding an absence of fifteen years, and I cannot see why we should expect the people of Orleans to act and feel differently from other people, more particularly, when the French nation is towering so far above the other nations of the earth; they will have a secret pride in their glory, they will have some attachments, to what extent I cannot say; but, inasmuch as we know that if we send Paddy to Paris, that Paddy he will come back, the idea is certainly not unworthy of our consideration.

The bill on your table has another objection, of some weight with me, in relation to its policy. You propose to do them a favor by granting them an admission to the rank of other States before they can legally demand it, and, at the same time, you propose terms beyond which they cannot go. This, sir, resembles very much a polite invitation to walk in, but under an injunction to see that your feet are well cleaned, and your toes turned out. It is a niggardly sort of policy that I am sorry to see engrafted in the bill. If you design to be liberal, be so; do not destroy your liberality by an ungenerous sentiment.

Again, sir, there are objections to the bill, as presented, that renders it impossible for me to give it my sanction. It will be seen, sir, that the bill proposes to annex that portion of West Florida in dispute between this and the Spanish Government to the State to be formed out of the Territory of Orleans. The President has declared to the world that this portion of the country, in our hands, shall be subject to mutual arrangements, hereafter to be entered into between the two Governments. But, once annex it to a State and the power to negotiate ceases. What power have we to negotiate about the territory of any of the States? We have none.

Again, sir, I never will consent that the bay of Mobile shall be annexed to any State which includes New Orleans and the mouth of the Mississippi, unless, indeed, they are both included in the same State with the whole country north, up to the Tennessee line.

If you annex West Florida to the State to be composed of the Orleans Territory, they will then possess a narrow slip of the country, including nearly the whole of the seacoast of Orleans, (including the bay of Mobile,) with a most extensive up-country, composed of a great part of the Mississippi Territory, and, I may say, Tennessee, wholly dependent on them, perhaps, for leave to go out into the bay, and, certainly, for the improvement of its navigation. And this, sir, is rendered more probable, as we know men act mostly for their own interest. And, as New Orleans, from its present population, will govern the councils of that State, let me ask, sir, if it will not be their interest, as much as possible, to divert the 'trade and capital from the Mobile to the Mississippi? And what security have we that she will not do so? None; and from the nature of our Government can have none.

Upon the plan I propose, from the extent of the country proposed to be annexed, the people who inhabit it, in time, will have the preponderance, and their interest will dictate the proper course to be pursued in relation to the free passage of the Mobile.

We may, also, with some certainty, pronounce that the population of the Mississippi, if it is not now, will, in a few years, be the greatest slave population, in proportion to the whites, of any country in the United States. Is it, then, of no consequence to have those settlements so connected with others, composed of whites, as that they may, at all times, be able, within the limits of their jurisdiction, to suppress insurrections of that sort? Is not this a consideration that ought to be taken into account? I, therefore, move you, sir, to strike out the whole of the bill, from the words "a bill," for the purpose of inserting a section by way of amendment, the effect of which will be to consolidate both the Territories into a single State, which will include the whole of the country belonging to the United States, east of the Mississippi, and south of the State of Tennessee. This plan will avoid the objections made to the want of numbers, and will give, also, an American population to the State, if that should be desirable; and will, also, avoid the difficulty occasioned from the situation in which West Florida is at this time placed. To this plan I can see but one objection that ought to have any sort of influence, and that, sir, exists more in idea than reality. It is to the size of the proposed State. Divide and subdivide this country as you will, their interests, in a political point of view, will be the same. Their representation in this House will neither be increased nor diminished by a consolidation. In the Senate, the plan proposed is greatly to the advantage of the old States. In that House, they will have but two Senators instead of four or six, according to the number of States that may be made.

There is, also, no legal objection to this plan. The Treaty of 1803 with the French Republic, only provides for their admission into the Union, without regard to their territorial limits, and there is no law repugnant to the plan.

Mr. Gholson said that the observations of the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Macon) had rendered it unnecessary for him to make many of the remarks to the committee which he had intended. In no point of view, said Mr. G., in which this subject has been considered, can I perceive any reason for adopting the amendment offered by the gentleman from Tennessee, (Mr. Miller.) If that gentleman will only advert to the treaty of cession between France and the United States, and to the act of Congress passed pursuant to that treaty, he will readily discover that the amendment he proposes cannot be sanctioned without a manifest violation of public faith. By the third article of the treaty, it is stipulated that "the inhabitants of the ceded territory shall be incorporated in the union of the United States, and admitted as soon as possible, according to the principles of the Federal Constitution, to the enjoyment of all the rights, advantages, and immunities of citizens of the United States." On the second of March, 1805, Congress proceeded by an act of legislation to fulfil this engagement with France; and accordingly, by the 7th section of that act, provided "that whenever it shall be ascertained by an actual census or enumeration of the inhabitants of the Territory of Orleans, taken by proper authority, that the number of free inhabitants included therein shall amount to sixty thousand, they shall thereupon be authorized to form for themselves a constitution and State government, and be admitted into the Union upon the footing of the original States, in all respects whatever, conformably to the provisions of the 3d article of the treaty concluded at Paris on the thirtieth of April, one thousand eight hundred and three, between the United States and the French Republic." Now, if to the Orleans Territory you add the Mississippi Territory, and of the two erect one State, you evidently will not comply either with your stipulations with the French Republic, or with your covenant to the Orleans Territory. For, by these you have agreed that Orleans shall become a State and not part of a State only; and there is a wide and substantial distinction between incorporating that Territory, together with other Territories into a single State, as but a fractional part thereof, and authorizing the people of that Territory "to form for themselves a constitution and State government, and to be admitted into the Union upon the footing of the original States." In the former case they may possibly have no influence whatever in appointments to the other branch of the Legislature, and all their interior regulations may also, by possibility, be dictated to them by an ascendant population in the remainder of the State. In the latter case they will, of course, have the entire direction in regard to their system of police and their State institutions, and will moreover have a right, not participated in by any other persons, of sending two Senators to Congress. In fact they will be a distinct State sovereignty. Surely, then, there is a great and obvious difference between what we have so often promised these people, and what is now proposed for them.

Mr. Bibb conceived that the House could not adopt such an amendment as that proposed, without the consent of Georgia; for without her consent they could not make an addition to or division of the Mississippi Territory. It was true, he said, that he had on a former day proposed to make an addition of territory to the Mississippi Territory, but it was only during such time as it should remain a Territory. To this there could be no objection, as there was no prohibition to it in the compact. It had been his intention, if the House had thought proper to sanction his motion, to have made a proposition to the State of Georgia to admit that territory to be incorporated with the Mississippi. The amendment now offered evidently proposed a violation of the compact with Georgia.

Mr. Macon said this bill had taken rather a curious course. The principle and detail had both been attacked; and yet no proposal had been made to try whether the House would legislate on the subject. He had proposed an amendment to do away some of the objections to the detail; but instead of being allowed to amend the bill, the House were met by a constitutional objection, from the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Wheaton) to the power of Congress to make a State. If this objection was good, Mr. M. said, he admitted the bill ought not to pass; for, Mr. M. said, on this point he could not agree with the gentleman from Tennessee, that because a treaty had been made in relation to it, it was too late to object to the constitutionality. Mr. M. said no; it was never too late to return to the constitution. If the article of the constitution, however, did not mean that Congress might take States out of new Territories, what did it mean? There was no occasion for it in relation to the old Territories; for the ordinance of the Old Congress had secured to them the right; and these ordinances were as binding as the treaties which Congress had entered into. The change of the form of Government did not affect national obligations. The right to become States was one which Congress could not take from the old Territories. The right of creating States out of acquired Territories, was one which he had always contended for; and it had been stated by at least one of those who formed the constitution, that this article had reference to Canada. "New States may be admitted by the Congress into the Union." At the time this provision was made, Florida and Louisiana were not thought of. Canada was the Territory kept in view. Much, sir, said Mr. M., as the United States wanted the southern country, and great as is the convenience of possessing it, I never would have consented to have taken it to have kept them in Territorial government forever. I do not want provinces. I am extremely sorry, sir, that whenever this subject is agitated, we are met by the objection that these people are of French descent. I have before expressed my opinion on this subject, and it is needless to repeat it; but if gentlemen wish them to become our brethren in reality, make them our equals; act just towards them. Do unto them as you would they should do unto you, and make them your friends. I know an opinion is entertained that only those who are of the favored race can be free. I know, sir, that the English nation has been freer than any other; but the time has been that Holland, Sweden, and others, have been free—power, however, overcame right, and the people lost their liberties.

I cannot consider it any question for our consideration, who shall be their Senators and who their Representatives. They have had some time a delegate, and will find delegates in the Senate as well as the House of Representatives. It seems to me, sir, that the gentleman from Tennessee need not to have referred to the dispute between the Potomac and the Delaware, because the constitution has put an end to these sources of strife. It is true, sir, that the Orleans Territory is a slave country, and I would be glad if they could get clear of them; but that does not at all affect this question.

The present situation of Mobile and Orleans is the reason why I want some alteration in the bill. I would rather not have them under the same Government. I have endeavored to ascertain the present population of the Orleans Territory, so called. There is a difference of opinion among those well informed on the subject, from 45,000 to 55,000. He wished gentlemen would permit them to try the question on the principle of the bill, and ascertain whether the House would do any thing with it or not.

Mr. Poindexter observed that the proposition of the gentleman from Tennessee for incorporating the present Mississippi Territory with West Florida and the Island of Orleans, to the sea, with a view to form of the whole one State, did not meet his approbation. From the Tennessee line, which would be the northern boundary of the State, to the confluence of the Mississippi with the bay of Mexico, is a distance of from eight hundred to a thousand miles, in the nearest direction, and following the meanders of the river, not less in my opinion than twelve hundred miles. Taking the distance generally from the Mississippi to the Georgia line, I should judge it to be about five hundred miles, and from the northernmost point of the State of Georgia to the junction of the Chatahoochee with the sea, cannot be far short of a thousand miles. This vast tract of country, in my humble conception, is too extensive for the purpose of local State government. Indeed, sir, it could hardly be expected, over such an immense territory, interspersed with numerous tribes of Indians, that even the Executive functionaries of Government could be able to perform their duty in the execution of their laws.

That geographical limits, other than those which now divide the Orleans and Mississippi Territories, might be designated, to comport more with the future convenience and prosperity of the country, cannot be denied. I would suggest for the reflection of gentlemen who have to act on this subject, the expediency of making the great river Mississippi the high road between the Eastern and Western States, to be formed on its waters; that no one State should possess both banks of that river. In that event, to commence on the eastern shore at the mouth of the Yazoo, in latitude 32 30; thence in a direct line to the head-waters of the Chatahoochee, thence to the sea, and along the coast, in a southwestern direction, to Lake Barrataria, thence up the Chafalaga to its junction with the Mississippi, and thence up that river to the mouth of the Yazoo. This tract of country would include about three degrees of latitude; it would combine all the settlements on the Eastern side of the Mississippi, except the county of Madison, which could be disposed of as the wisdom of Congress might hereafter direct. There are various political considerations which operate in favor of the formation of such a State. The people of the Territory of Orleans are petitioning to become an independent State, and I for one hope the prayer of their petition will in substance be granted. It is said that the French population of the city of New Orleans are unfriendly to the American Government. That they have strong prejudices in favor of France. Although, sir, I do not attach so much importance to that circumstance as some gentlemen do, I am willing to admit that French emigrants in Louisiana feel an attachment to their native country. I do not blush to say that were I in France, or any other foreign country, I could never forget that I was born an American citizen. I could never relinquish my attachments to the land of freedom, in which I inhaled my first breath. Judging therefore, of the feelings of others, by my own, I cannot doubt that many influential French inhabitants of New Orleans entertain a predilection for the country which gave them birth. But, sir, within the limits which I have submitted to the consideration of the committee, there is an American population at least sufficient to neutralize every exotic prejudice which may exist in New Orleans. A people whose origin, whose feelings and principles are American, and who are prepared to rally around the standard of the constitution, in every scene of difficulty and of danger.

Mr. Miller's amendment was not agreed to.

Monday, January 14.

Orleans Territory.

The House resumed the consideration of the engrossed bill to enable the people of the Territory of Orleans to form a constitution and State government, and for the admission of such State into the Union on an equal footing with the original States, and for other purposes.

The bill being on its final passage—

Mr. Pitkin said he had heretofore stated that he had some objections to the bill, which he had intended to have stated to the House when the bill was capable of amendment, but that he had not an opportunity so to do. I have stated, said Mr. P., that it was probable there would be some difficulty between Orleans, when it becomes a State, and the United States, respecting the extent of the State westward. I stated that the United States, in consequence of the purchase of Louisiana with the same extent that it had when Spain and France possessed it, had claimed the territory as far as the river called Rio Bravo; that the negotiations on this subject between the Governments of the United States and Spain were probably unknown to many members of the House, and that it required a pretty accurate knowledge of them, of the extent of the claim, and of the geography of the country, to understand precisely what I meant. I stated that there was an extent of country between a meridional line passing through Nacogdoches and Rio Bravo, of four or five hundred miles in width, which the United States had claimed as being their property. In the negotiations between the two countries, the United States offered to cede all the country between the Rio Bravo and the Colorado running east of it to Spain, on the condition that Spain would cede to the United States all the territory west of the Perdido. This proposition was rejected. Our Commissioners were instructed to assert our title as far as the Rio Bravo, or at least to the Bay of St. Bernard. It is so stated by the President of the United States in the introduction to the compilation of the land laws, in which he states that we unquestionably have a right to the country as far west as the sources of the rivers which fall into the Mississippi, to the sources of the Red River, Arkansas, and Missouri; that with respect to the territory immediately bounding on the Gulf of Mexico, we have claims to the "province of Texas," which it is well known is a very large province. By the bill before us, according to this construction, jurisdiction is extended over this very province; and it may be, and in fact will be, in the power of the State of Orleans to say that our limits extend so far, and therefore to extend their jurisdiction in like manner. In my apprehension, therefore, it is important, while we are making this Territory a State, where the boundaries are disputed, to retain in our own hands the power of settling them. It is known that, by the law which passed providing for the government of the Territory of Orleans, we had liberty to alter the boundary before we made them a State, but not after. Will it not be in the power of the new State to insist on their right to jurisdiction over the territory, at least as far west as the Colorado, and to prevent the United States from ceding any part of it? For instance, sir, the United States may wish, as we have taken Florida as far as the Perdido, subject to future negotiation, to make this arrangement: to cede to Spain a certain proportion west for East Florida. Now, sir, I ask when we have made this country a State if we can do this? I believe it will be said by every person that we cannot, after she becomes a State, alter the boundaries without her consent. I do apprehend, therefore, there will be difficulties on the subject hereafter, if the United States should attempt to settle the boundary in a manner disagreeable to the State; because, if they cannot extend their jurisdiction west of a meridional line passing through Nacogdoches, the territory will be in extent east and west but about one hundred miles, and north and south about one hundred and twenty, and this will make them comparatively a small State.

As the United States have settled a provisional line, to wit: a meridional line through Nacogdoches, it should not be in the power of the new State to extend its jurisdiction beyond that line. Provision might be made in this way: The western boundary might be made to conform to the provisional line; and a provision might then be made that there should be reserved to the United States the privilege of adding to it whatever land it should acquire westwardly. Such a provision would leave us at liberty to settle the limits without the interference of that State, and without, I apprehend, much difficulty. This was done in relation to the State of Ohio. Unless the right had been reserved, the consent of the State would have been necessary to a cession, or other alteration of its boundary. Such a course in this case will be perfectly safe for the United States, as well as for the new State. I wish we may so regulate the Territory as there may not in future be any collision between the State and the United States. The province of Texas is in the viceroyalty of New Spain. We know that the Viceroy sent his troops to oppose the passage of our troops, and a provisional line was established. New Spain is very powerful, and I should be very sorry that the new State should have power to embroil the United States with it. I would ask the chairman of the committee who reported this bill, what were his views respecting the western boundary, and how far it was his idea that the new State should extend, and whether it would not comport with his ideas that the change which I have suggested should be made? I could have wished that the bill was in such a state of its progress that I could have moved an amendment; but, as it is, unless I am satisfied that we shall not be involved in difficulty by the consequences I have stated, I shall be unwilling to pass the bill, and must vote against it.

Mr. Quincy.—Mr. Speaker, I address you, sir, with an anxiety and distress of mind with me wholly unprecedented. The friends of this bill seem to consider it as the exercise of a common power; as an ordinary affair; a mere municipal regulation which they expect to see pass without other questions than those concerning details. But, sir, the principle of this bill materially affects the liberties and rights of the whole people of the United States. To me, it appears that it would justify a revolution in this country; and that, in no great length of time, may produce it. When I see the zeal and perseverance with which this bill has been urged along its Parliamentary path, when I know the local interests and associated projects, which combine to promote its success, all opposition to it seems manifestly unavailing. I am almost tempted to leave, without a struggle, my country to its fate. But, sir, while there is life, there is hope. So long as the fatal shaft has not yet sped, if Heaven so will it, the bow may be broken, and the vigor of the mischief-meditating arm withered. If there be a man in this house, or nation, who cherishes the constitution under which we are assembled, as the chief stay of his hope, as the light which is destined to gladden his own day, and to soften even the gloom of the grave, by the prospect it sheds over his children, I fall not behind him in such sentiments. I will yield to no man in attachment to this constitution, in veneration for the sages who laid its foundations, in devotion to those principles which form its cement and constitute its proportions. What, then, must be my feelings; what ought to be the feelings of a man cherishing such sentiments, when he sees an act contemplated which lays ruin at the root of all these hopes? When he sees a principle of action about to be usurped, before the operation of which the bands of this constitution are no more than flax before the fire, or stubble before the whirlwind? When this bill passes, such an act is done, and such a principle usurped.

Mr. Speaker, there is a great rule of human conduct, which he who honestly observes cannot err widely from the path of his sought duty. It is, to be very scrupulous concerning the principles you select as the test of your rights and obligations; to be very faithful in noticing the result of their application; and to be very fearless in tracing and exposing their immediate effects and distant consequences. Under the sanction of this rule of conduct, I am compelled to declare it as my deliberate opinion, that, if this bill passes, the bonds of this Union are virtually dissolved; that the States which compose it are free from their moral obligations, and that, as it will be the right of all, so it will be the duty of some, to prepare definitely for a separation—amicably if they can, violently if they must.

Mr. Quincy was here called to order by Mr. Poindexter.

Mr. Quincy repeated, and justified the remark he had made, which, to save all misapprehension, he committed to writing, in the following words: "If this bill passes, it is my deliberate opinion that it is virtually a dissolution of this Union; that it will free the States from their moral obligation, and, as it will be the right of all, so it will be the duty of some, definitely to prepare for a separation, amicably if they can, violently if they must."

After some little confusion,

Mr. Poindexter required the decision of the Speaker whether it was consistent with the propriety of debate, to use such an expression. He said it was radically wrong for any member to use arguments going to dissolve the Government, and tumble this body itself to dust and ashes. It would be found, from the gentleman's statement of his language, that he had declared the right of any portion of the people to separate——

Mr. Quincy wished the Speaker to decide, for if the gentleman was permitted to debate the question, he should lose one-half of his speech.

The Speaker decided that great latitude in debate was generally allowed; and that, by way of argument against a bill, the first part of the gentleman's observations was admissible; but the latter member of the sentence, viz.: "That it would be the duty of some States to prepare for a separation, amicably if they can, violently if they must," was contrary to the order of debate.

Mr. Quincy appealed from his decision, and required the yeas and nays on the appeal.

The question was stated thus: "Is the decision of the Speaker correct?" And decided—53 yeas; 56 nays.

So the decision of the speaker was reversed; Mr. Quincy's observations were declared to be in order; and he proceeded.

I rejoice, Mr. Speaker, at the result of this appeal. Not from any personal consideration, but from the respect paid to the essential rights of the people, in one of their representatives. When I spoke of a separation of the States as resulting from the violation of the constitution, contemplated in this bill, I spoke of it as of a necessity, deeply to be deprecated; but as resulting from causes so certain and obvious, as to be absolutely inevitable when the effect of the principle is practically experienced. It is to preserve, to guard the constitution of my country, that I denounce this attempt. I would rouse the attention of gentlemen from the apathy with which they seem beset. These observations are not made in a corner; there is no low intrigue; no secret machinations. I am on the people's own ground—to them I appeal, concerning their own rights, their own liberties, their own intent in adopting this constitution. The voice I have uttered, at which gentlemen startle with such agitation, is no unfriendly voice. I intended it as a voice of warning. By this people, and by the event, if this bill passes, I am willing to be judged, whether it be not a voice of wisdom.

The bill, which is now proposed to be passed, has this assumed principle for its basis—that the three branches of this National Government, without recurrence to conventions of the people, in the States, or to the Legislatures of the States, are authorized to admit new partners to a share of the political power, in countries out of the original limits of the United States. Now, this assumed principle I maintain to be altogether without any sanction in the constitution. I declare it to be a manifest and atrocious usurpation of power; of a nature, dissolving, according to undeniable principles of moral law, the obligations of our national compact; and leading to all the awful consequences which flow from such a state of things.

Concerning this assumed principle, which is the basis of this bill, this is the general position on which I rest my argument—that if the authority, now proposed to be exercised, be delegated to the three branches of the Government, by virtue of the constitution, it results either from its general nature, or from its particular provisions. I shall consider distinctly both these sources, in relation to this pretended power.

Touching the general nature of the instrument called the Constitution of the United States, there is no obscurity—it has no fabled descent, like the palladium of ancient Troy, from the heavens. Its origin is not confused by the mists of time, or hidden by the darkness of past, unexplored ages; it is the fabric of our day. Some now living, had a share in its construction—all of us stood by, and saw the rising of the edifice. There can be no doubt about its nature. It is a political compact. By whom? And about what? The preamble to the instrument will answer these questions:

"We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution, for the United States of America."

It is, "we, the people of the United States, for ourselves and our posterity;" not for the people of Louisiana; nor for the people of New Orleans, or of Canada. None of these enter into the scope of the instrument; it embraces only "the United States of America." Who those are, it may seem strange, in this place, to inquire. But truly, sir, our imaginations have, of late, been so accustomed to wander after new settlements to the very end of the earth, that it will not be time ill-spent to inquire what this phrase means, and what it includes. These are not terms adopted at hazard; they have reference to a state of things existing anterior to the constitution. When the people of the present United States began to contemplate a severance from their parent State, it was a long time before they fixed definitely the name by which they would be designated. In 1774, they called themselves "the Colonies and Provinces of North America." In 1775, "the Representatives of the United Colonies of North America." In the Declaration of Independence, "the Representatives of the United States of America." And finally, in the Articles of Confederation, the style of the confederacy is declared to be "the United States of America." It was with reference to the old articles of confederation, and to preserve the identity and established individuality of their character, that the preamble to this constitution, not content, simply, with declaring that it is "we, the people of the United States," who enter into this compact, adds that it is for "the United States of America." Concerning the territory contemplated by the people of the United States, in these general terms, there can be no dispute; it is settled by the treaty of peace, and included within the Atlantic Ocean, and St. Croix, the lakes, and more precisely, so far as relates to the frontier, having relation to the present argument, within "a line to be drawn through the middle of the river Mississippi, until it intersect the northernmost part of the thirty-first degree of north latitude to the river Apalachicola, thence along the middle of this river to its junction with the Flint River, thence straight to the head of the St. Mary's River, and thence down the St. Mary's to the Atlantic Ocean."

I have been thus particular to draw the minds of gentlemen, distinctly, to the meaning of the terms used in the preamble; to the extent which "the United States" then included; and to the fact that neither New Orleans nor Louisiana were within the comprehension of the terms of this instrument. It is sufficient for the present branch of my argument to say, that there is nothing in the general nature of this compact from which the power contemplated to be exercised in this bill results. On the contrary, as the introduction of a new associate in political power implies, necessarily, a new division of power, and consequent diminution of the relative proportion of the former proprietors of it; there can, certainly, be nothing more obvious, than that from the general nature of the instrument no power can result to diminish and give away to strangers any proportion of the rights of the original partners. If such a power exists, it must be found, then, in the particular provisions in the constitution. The question now arising is, in which of these provisions is given the power to admit new States, to be created in territories, beyond the limits of the old United States. If it exists anywhere, it is either in the third section of the fourth article of the constitution, or in the treaty-making power. If it result from neither of these, it is not pretended to be found anywhere else.

That part of the third section of the fourth article, on which the advocates of this bill rely, is the following: "New States may be admitted, by the Congress, into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other State, nor any State be formed by the junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned, as well as of the Congress." I know, Mr. Speaker, that the first clause of this paragraph has been read, with all the superciliousness of a grammarian's triumph. "New States may be admitted, by the Congress, into this Union." Accompanied with this most consequential inquiry: "Is not this a new State to be admitted? And is not here an express authority?" I have no doubt this is a full and satisfactory argument to every one, who is content with the mere colors and superficies of things. And if we were now at the bar of some stall-fed justice, the inquiry would insure victory to the maker of it, to the manifest delight of the constables and suitors of his court. But, sir, we are now before the tribunal of the whole American people; reasoning concerning their liberties, their rights, their constitution. These are not to be made the victims of the inevitable obscurity of general terms; nor the sport of verbal criticism. The question is concerning the intent of the American people, the proprietors of the old United States, when they agreed to this article. Dictionaries and spelling-books are, here, of no authority. Neither Johnson, nor Walker, nor Webster nor Dilworth, has any voice in this matter. Sir, the question concerns the proportion of power, reserved by this constitution, to every State in the Union. Have the three branches of this Government a right, at will, to weaken and outweigh the influence, respectively secured to each State, in this compact, by introducing, at pleasure, new partners, situate beyond the old limits of the United States? The question has not relation merely to New Orleans. The great objection is to the principle of the bill. If this bill be admitted, the whole space of Louisiana, greater, it is said, than the entire extent of the old United States, will be a mighty theatre, in which this Government assumes the right of exercising this unparalleled power. And it will be; there is no concealment, it is intended to be exercised. Nor will it stop, until the very name and nature of the old partners be overwhelmed by new comers into the Confederacy. Sir, the question goes to the very root of the power and influence of the present members of this Union. The real intent of this article is, therefore, an inquiry of most serious import; and is to be settled only by a recurrence to the known history and known relations of this people and their constitution. These, I maintain, support this position: that the terms "new States," in this article, do intend new political sovereignties, to be formed within the original limits of the United States; and do not intend new political sovereignties with territorial annexations, to be erected without the original limits of the United States. I undertake to support both branches of this position to the satisfaction of the people of these United States. As to any expectation of conviction on this floor, I know the nature of the ground and how hopeless any arguments are, which thwart a concerted course of measures.

I recur, in the first place, to the evidence of history. This furnishes the following leading fact: that before, and at the time of the adoption of this constitution, the creation of new political sovereignties within the limits of the old United States was contemplated. Among the records of the old Congress will be found a resolution, passed as long ago as the 10th day of October, 1780, contemplating the cession of unappropriated lands to the United States, accompanied by a provision that "they shall be disposed of for the common benefit of the United States, and be settled and formed into distinct Republican States, which shall become members of the Federal Union, and have the same rights of sovereignty, freedom, and independence, as the other States." Afterward, on the 7th of July, 1786, the subject of "laying out and forming into States" the country lying northwest of the river Ohio, came under the consideration of the same body; and another resolution was passed recommending to the Legislature of Virginia to revise their act of cession, so as to permit a more eligible division of that portion of territory derived from her; "which States," it proceeds to declare, "shall hereafter become members of the Federal Union, and have the same rights of sovereignty, freedom, and independence, as the original States, in conformity with the resolution of Congress of the 10th of October, 1780." All the Territories to which these resolutions had reference, were undeniably within the ancient limits of the United States.

Here, then, is a leading fact, that the article in the constitution had a condition of things, notorious at the time when it was adopted, upon which it was to act, and to meet the exigency resulting from which, such an article was requisite. That is to say: new States, within the limits of the United States, were contemplated at the time when the foundations of the constitution were laid. But we have another authority upon this point, which is, in truth, a cotemporaneous exposition of this article of the constitution. I allude to the resolution, passed on the 3d of July, 1788, in the words following:

[Here the resolution was read.]

In this resolution of the old Congress, it is expressly declared, that the Constitution of the United States having been adopted by nine States, an act of the old Congress could have no effect to make Kentucky a separate member of the Union, and that, although they thought it expedient that it should be so admitted, yet that this could only be done under the provisions made in the new constitution. It is impossible to have a more direct contemporaneous evidence that the case contemplated in this article was that of the Territories within the limits of the United States; yet the gentleman from North Carolina, (Mr. Macon,) for whose integrity and independence I have very great respect, told us the other day, that "if this article had not territories within the limits of the old United States to act upon, it would be wholly without meaning. Because the ordinance of the old Congress had secured the right to the States within the old United States, and a provision for that object, in the new constitution, was wholly unnecessary." Now, I will appeal to the gentleman's own candor, if the very reverse of the conclusion he draws is not the true one, after he has considered the following fact: That, by this ordinance of the old Congress, it was declared, that the boundaries of the contemplated States, and the terms of their admission, should be, in certain particulars, specified in the ordinance, subject to the control of Congress. Now, as by the new constitution the old Congress was about to be annihilated, it was absolutely necessary for the very fulfilment of this ordinance, that the new constitution should have this power for the admission of new States within the ancient limits, so that the ordinance of the old Congress, far from showing the inutility of such a provision for the Territories within the ancient limits, expressly proves the reverse, and is an evidence of its necessity to effect the object of the ordinance itself.

I think there can be no more satisfactory evidence adduced or required of the first part of the position, that the terms "new States" did intend new political sovereignties within the limits of the old United States. For it is here shown, that the creation of such States, within the territorial limits fixed by the treaty of 1783, had been contemplated; that the old Congress itself expressly asserts that the new constitution gave the power for that object; that the nature of the old ordinance required such a power, for the purpose of carrying its provisions into effect, and that it has been from the time of the adoption of the federal constitution, unto this hour, applied exclusively to the admission of States, within the limits of the old United States, and was never attempted to be extended to any other object.

Now, having shown a purpose, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, sufficient to occupy the whole scope of the terms of the article, ought not the evidence be very strong to satisfy the mind, that the terms really intended something else, besides this obvious purpose; that it may be fairly extended to the entire circle of the globe, wherever title can be obtained by purchase, or conquest, and the new partners in the political power may be admitted at the mere discretion of this Legislature, any where that it wills. A principle thus monstrous is asserted in this bill.

But I think it may be made satisfactorily to appear not only that the terms "new States" in this article did mean political sovereignties to be formed within the original limits of the United States, as has just been shown, but, also, negatively, that it did not intend new political sovereignties, with territorial annexations, to be created without those original limits. This appears first from the very tenor of the article. All its limitations have respect to the creation of States within the original limits. Two States shall not be joined; no new State shall be erected within the jurisdiction of any other State, without the consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of Congress. Now, had foreign territories been contemplated, had the new habits, customs, manners, and language of other nations been in the idea of the framers of this constitution, would not some limitation have been devised, to guard against the abuse of a power, in its nature so enormous, and so obviously, when it occurred, calculated to excite just jealousy among the States, whose relative weight would be so essentially affected, by such an infusion at once of a mass of foreigners into their Councils, and into all the rights of the country? The want of all limitation of such power would be a strong evidence, were others wanting, that the powers, now about to be exercised, never entered into the imagination of those thoughtful and prescient men, who constructed the fabric. But there is another most powerful argument against the extension of this article to embrace the right to create States without the original limits of the United States, deducible from the utter silence of all debates at the period of the adoption of the Federal Constitution, touching the power here proposed to be usurped. If ever there was a time in which the ingenuity of the greatest men of an age was taxed to find arguments in favor of and against any political measure, it was at the time of the adoption of this constitution. All the faculties of the human mind were, on the one side and the other, put upon their utmost stretch, to find the real and imaginary blessings or evils, likely to result from the proposed measure. Now I call upon the advocates of this bill to point out, in all the debates of that period in any one publication, in any one newspaper of those times, a single intimation, by friend or foe to the constitution, approving or censuring it for containing the power here proposed to be usurped, or a single suggestion that it might be extended to such an object as is now proposed. I do not say that no such suggestion was ever made. But this I will say that I do not believe there is such a one any where to be found. Certain I am, I have never been able to meet the shadow of such a suggestion, and I have made no inconsiderable research upon the point. Such may exist—but until it be produced, we have a right to reason as though it had no existence. No, sir. The people of this country at that day had no idea of the territorial avidity of their successors. It was, on the contrary, an argument, urged against the success of the project, that the territory was too extensive for a republican form of government. But, now there is no limits to our ambitious hopes. We are about to cross the Mississippi. The Missouri and Red River are but roads, on which our imagination travels to new lands and new States to be raised and admitted (under the power, now first usurped) into this Union, among undiscovered lands in the west. But it has been suggested that the Convention had Canada in view, in this article, and the gentleman from North Carolina told this House, that a member of the Convention, as I understood him, either now, or lately a member of the Senate, informed him that the article had that reference. Sir, I have no doubt the gentleman from North Carolina has had a communication such as he intimates. But, for myself, I have no sort of faith in these convenient recollections, suited to serve a turn, to furnish an apology for a party, or give color to a project. I do not deny, on the contrary I believe it very probable, that among the coursings of some discursive and craving fancy, such thoughts might be started; but that is not the question. Was this an avowed object in the Convention when it formed this article? Did it enter into the conception of the people when its principles were discussed? Sir, it did not, it could not. The very intention would have been a disgrace both to this people and the Convention. What, sir! Shall it be intimated; shall it for a moment be admitted, that the noblest and purest band of patriots this or any other country ever could boast, were engaged in machinating means for the dismemberment of the territories of a power to which they had pledged friendship, and the observance of all the obligations which grow out of a strict and perfect amity? The honor of our country forbids and disdains such a suggestion.