SEVENTH CONGRESS.—SECOND SESSION.

PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES

IN

THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, December 6, 1802.

This being the day appointed by the constitution for the annual meeting of Congress, the following members of the House of Representatives appeared and took their seats, to wit:

From New Hampshire.—Abiel Foster and Samuel Tenney.

From Massachusetts.—John Bacon, Seth Hastings, Nathan Read, Josiah Smith, Joseph B. Varnum, Peleg Wadsworth, and Lemuel Williams.

From Rhode Island.—Joseph Stanton, jr., and Thomas Tillinghast.

From Connecticut.—John Davenport, Calvin Goddard, Elias Perkins, John Cotton Smith, and Benjamin Tallmadge.

From New York.—Samuel L. Mitchill, John Smith, David Thomas, John P. Van Ness, and Killian K. Van Rensselaer.

From New Jersey.—John Condit, Ebenezer Elmer, James Mott, and Henry Southard.

From Pennsylvania.—Robert Brown, Andrew Gregg, Joseph Heister, Joseph Hemphill, William Hoge, Michael Leib, John Smilie, John Stewart, Isaac Van Horn, and Henry Woods.

From Maryland.—John Dennis, Joseph H. Nicholson, Thomas Plater, and Samuel Smith.

From Virginia.—Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, John Dawson, David Holmes, George Jackson, Anthony New, John Smith, and Philip R. Thompson.

From North Carolina.—Nathaniel Macon, Speaker, Richard Stanford, and John Stanley.

From Tennessee.—William Dickson.

From the North-western Territory.—Paul Fearing.

Several new members, to wit: Samuel Hunt, from New Hampshire, returned to serve as a member of this House, in the room of Joseph Peirce, who has resigned his seat; Samuel Thatcher, from Massachusetts, returned to serve as a member of this House, in the room of Silas Lee, who has resigned; and David Meriwether, from Georgia, returned to serve as a member of this House, in the room of Benjamin Taliaferro, who has also resigned; appeared, produced their credentials, and took their seats in the House.

A new delegate, from the Mississippi Territory, to wit, Thomas M. Green, returned to serve in this House, in the room of Narsworthy Hunter, deceased, appeared, produced his credentials, and took his seat in the House.

But a quorum of the whole number of qualified members not being present, the House adjourned until to-morrow morning, eleven o'clock.

Tuesday, December 7.

Another new member, to wit, Thomas Wynn, from North Carolina, returned to serve as a member of this House, for the said State, in the room of Charles Johnson, deceased, appeared, produced his credentials, and took his seat in the House.

Several other members, viz: from New Hampshire, George B. Upham; from Massachusetts, Phanuel Bishop, Manasseh Cutler, and William Shepard; from Connecticut, Samuel W. Dana and Roger Griswold; from Pennsylvania, Thomas Boude; from Virginia, Thomas Newton, jr., and John Trigg; from North Carolina, James Holland; and from South Carolina, Thomas Moore; appeared, and took their seats in the House.

And a quorum, consisting of a majority of the whole number of qualified members, being present, the oath to support the Constitution of the United States, as prescribed by the act, entitled "An act to regulate the time and manner of administering certain oaths," was administered by Mr. Speaker to the new members.

Ordered, That a message be sent to the Senate, to inform them that a quorum of this House is assembled, and are ready to proceed to business, and that the Clerk of this House do go with the said message.

Wednesday, December 8.

Two other members, to wit: from New Jersey, William Helms, and from North Carolina, Willis Alston, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Thursday, December 9.

Two other members, to wit: Walter Bowie, from Maryland, and Thomas T. Davis, from Kentucky, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Friday, December 10.

Two other members, to wit: William Eustis, from Massachusetts, and John A. Hanna, from Pennsylvania, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Saturday, December 11.

Another member, to wit, Archibald Henderson, from North Carolina, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Monday, December 13.

Several other members, to wit: from Massachusetts, Richard Cutts; from New York, Thomas Morris; from Virginia, Abram Trigg; and from South Carolina, Thomas Lowndes; appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Tuesday, December 14.

Several other members, to wit: from Massachusetts, Ebenezer Mattoon; from New York, Theodorus Bailey; from Virginia, John Randolph, jr., and John Taliaferro, jr.; and from South Carolina, William Butler; appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Wednesday, December 15.

Another member, to wit, Edwin Gray, from Virginia, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

A message from the Senate informed the House that the Senate have agreed to the resolution of this House for the appointment of Chaplains to Congress for the present session; and have appointed the Rev. Dr. Gantt, on their part.

The House proceeded, by ballot, to the appointment of a Chaplain to Congress, on the part of this House; and, upon examining the ballots, a majority of the votes of the whole House was found in favor of the Reverend William Parkinson.

A Message was received from the President of the United States, by Mr. Lewis, his Secretary, as follows:

Mr. Speaker: I am directed by the President of the United States to hand you a communication, in writing, from the President to the two Houses of Congress.

And he delivered in the same, together with the accompanying documents. The said communication was read. [For which, see proceedings in the Senate of this date.]

Ordered, That the said communication, with the accompanying documents, be referred to the Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union.

Thursday, December 16.

Two other members, to wit: Lucas Elmendorph, from New York, and Daniel Heister, from Maryland, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Friday, December 17.

Two other members, to wit: from South Carolina, Benjamin Huger, and John Rutledge, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Violation of the Right of Deposit at New Orleans.

Mr. Randolph observed that there had been a recent occurrence, in which every member of the House was interested, though every member might not, perhaps, possess competent information respecting it. He said it would be useless in him to impress the magnitude of a subject that related to the free navigation of the Mississippi, which materially affected a district of country growing every day in wealth and importance, and which it behooved the whole United States to cherish and protect. He moved, therefore, the following resolution:

"Resolved, That the President of the United States be requested to cause to be laid before this House such papers as are in the possession of the Department of State, as relate to the violation on the part of Spain, of the Treaty of Friendship, Limits, and Navigation, between the United States of America and the King of Spain."

Monday, December 20.

Several other members, to wit: from Vermont, Israel Smith; and from Virginia, Richard Brent, and Matthew Clay; appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Tuesday, December 21.

Another member, to wit, John Campbell, from Maryland, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Wednesday, December 22.

Another member, to wit, John Archer, from Maryland, appeared, and took his seat.

Violation of the Right of Deposit at New Orleans.

A Message was received from the President of the United States, as follows:

Gentlemen of the House of Representatives:

I now transmit a report from the Secretary of State, with the information requested in your resolutions of the seventeenth instant.

In making this communication, I deem it proper to observe, that I was led by the regard due to the rights and interests of the United States, and to the just sensibility of the portion of our fellow-citizens more immediately affected by the irregular proceeding at New Orleans, to lose not a moment in causing every step to be taken which the occasion claimed from me; being equally aware of the obligation to maintain, in all cases, the rights of the nation, and to employ, for that purpose, those just and honorable means which belong to the character of the United States.

TH. JEFFERSON.

Dec. 22, 1802.

The Message, and the papers referred to therein, were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

The Mint.

Mr. Randolph rose, in order to renew a motion which he had made yesterday, and on which—being called to the door when some objections were urged against it—he was surprised to find himself in a small minority. Understanding that the refusal to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on his motion for abolishing the Mint, was the effect of a desire on the part of the House to receive the report of the Director of that institution, for the past year, he would endeavor to show that the House were already in possession of competent information, and that it could not be affected by any communication which the head of that department might make. If this were a subject novel to the House, and of an undigested nature, he should readily acknowledge his motion to have been premature; nor would it, under those circumstances, have been submitted to the House. But, on examination, it would appear that the subject had been matured during the last session; that information of the most satisfactory nature had been received from the Director; and a bill actually passed the House. That information, if it were not in the recollection of every member of the House, was accessible to all of them. It stated explicitly that the machinery would not last, without repair, longer than another year—this, he presumed, had not renewed itself; that the horses were so old that it would be necessary, at the end of the year, to replace them by others—these had not, he supposed, grown younger; that the lot was too circumscribed, and this, he imagined, had not enlarged its limits; that the expense of the institution could not, by any new arrangements, be reduced below twenty thousand dollars. The Director had not only recommended a change of the site, but of the modus operandi of the machinery of the Mint, by supplying the labor of horses by steam. Upon this information the House had acted last session. No general election having intervened, he must presume that no change of sentiment had taken place. He, therefore, thought he had a right to consider this subject as perfectly matured, and there being no other business before the House, hoped it would be taken up; although he was not surprised at the reluctance of those gentlemen who cherished the institution as one of the insignia of sovereignty, to act upon it. This aspect of the subject could not, however, be changed by any report of the detailed operations of the Mint. He, therefore, moved that the House, agreeably to the order of the day, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on the resolution to repeal so much of the laws on the subject of the Mint as relate to the establishing of a Mint.

Mr. Southard was in favor of the postponement. There were now present a number of gentlemen not members at the period of discussion during the last session. They have no documents, and cannot be correctly informed. He saw no advantage in entering upon the discussion at this time, as new and additional information may be received from the report of the Director. It had been said there was no business before the House; but there was business; there was a bill upon their table, why not take that up and act upon it?

Mr. Randolph called for the reading of a document that would throw clear and full light upon the subject; not light of that fleeting kind that may be derived from an annual report. From this document sufficient information could be had to convince any member that we might act as well now as at any other time.

[The Clerk read a report from the Director of the Mint, received during the last session, stating the real and personal property attached to the Mint; that the machinery might last for one year; that the horses may last a year; that to conduct the operations of the Mint to advantage, steam should be used instead of horses; that the lot on which the Mint is erected was too small; and that a less annual sum than seventeen or eighteen thousand dollars would not provide for the establishment.]

Mr. Randolph said he would state a fact, which was, that notwithstanding all the issues from the Mint, no member sees a coin. For himself he had not seen a piece of gold coined in the Mint for two years.

Mr. Lowndes said the remark of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Randolph) was not correct, as he had seen many pieces of American coin. But he could assign a satisfactory reason for the appearance of so little gold in ordinary circulation. It was the practice of the banks to count over once a month the specie in their vaults. This trouble was considerably lessened by depositing gold instead of silver. He had been credibly assured that there was now in the vaults of the banks of the United States gold, in eagles and half eagles, to the amount of two millions of dollars.[72]

Mr. Dennis said that, if, on full inquiry, the establishment appeared to be a drain on the Treasury, he should be for abolishing it; but he should not, on immature information, be for abolishing an institution, coeval with the Government, and founded on good reasons. The reasons adduced by the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Randolph) were insufficient. So far as related to the horses, he believed there were only four employed, and the purchase of four fresh ones would be a very unimportant consideration. Another argument was drawn from the smallness of the lot on which the Mint stands. Though it might be better conducted on a more extensive lot, yet he was not satisfied, notwithstanding present disadvantages, that it might not be profitably conducted, at least so far as regarded a copper coinage. For these reasons he thought it proper to wait a few days, in order to receive information that would enable them to understand the points on which their decision may ultimately turn.

The question was then taken on Mr. Gregg's motion to postpone the subject till the second Monday in January, and carried—ayes 47, noes 28.

Thursday, December 23.

Another member, to wit, Lewis R. Morris, from Vermont, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Friday, December 24.

Another member, to wit, William H. Hill, from North Carolina, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Monday, December 27.

Case of J. P. Van Ness.

Mr. Davis observed that he was of opinion that a member of the House retained his seat contrary to the spirit and sense of the constitution. It therefore became his duty to offer a resolution for instituting an inquiry into the subject, in doing which he disclaimed all personal view. He then made the following motion:

Resolved, That the Committee of Elections be, and they are hereby, instructed to inquire whether John P. Van Ness, one of the members of this House from the State of New York, returned by said State to serve as one of its members in the seventh Congress of the United States, has not, since his election as a member of this House, and since he occupied a seat as a member, accepted of, and exercised the office of a major of militia, under the authority of the United States, within the Territory of Columbia, and thereby forfeited his right to a seat as a member of this House.

Mr. Mitchill considered the point as interesting in two relations; that which involved the decision of a principle, and that which went to deprive the State, (New York,) one of whose representatives he was, of a member. For these reasons he hoped the business would not be immediately pressed. He acknowledged this was not the first intimation he had received of the contemplation of such a motion; but he had entertained a hope that the gentleman with whom it originated, had, on reflection, considered it not inconsistent with his duty to abandon it.

Mr. Davis replied, that he felt no disposition to press a decision. He had communicated, the first day he took his seat, his ideas on the subject to certain members, the friends of the gentleman implicated by the resolution, in hopes that he would resign. He now entertained no wish to push the business. He supposed, however, that the resolution would, of course, go to the Committee of Elections. He repeated that he was governed by no personal prejudice, but entirely by a sense of duty. He concluded with saying he was in favor of the question of reference being immediately taken.

But on Mr. Mitchill repeating his desire for some delay, Mr. Davis agreed to let the resolution lie till to-morrow.

Tuesday, December 28.

Two other members, to wit: from Virginia, John Stratton; and from North Carolina, William Barry Grove, appeared, and took their seats in the House.

Letter of James McHenry.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter addressed to him from James McHenry, late Secretary for the War Department, containing a variety of observations on the subject-matter of a report presented to the House, on the twenty-ninth day of April last, from the committee appointed to inquire and report, whether moneys drawn from the Treasury have been faithfully applied to the objects for which they were appropriated, and whether the same have been regularly accounted for; and to report, likewise, whether any further arrangements are necessary to promote economy, enforce adherence to Legislative restrictions, and secure the accountability of persons intrusted with the public money, together with an appendix, comprising sundry explanatory statements in defence of the official conduct of the said James McHenry, whilst acting in the capacity aforesaid: the House proceeded in the reading of the said letter, and having made some progress therein,

Mr. Alston said that the paper which the Clerk was reading appeared to him to be a very voluminous one, and that he did not think the House were bound to listen to the reading of it. He conceived them only bound to attend to such documents as might be received from public officers, or to petitions for a redress of grievances. He did not believe the paper now before the House to be one of that description, or that the House ought to take any notice of it. If the House were bound to take notice of every letter any individual might think proper to write and address to the Speaker, very little time might be left to do any other business. He concluded by saying he thought they ought to take no more notice of it than they should of any paragraph in a newspaper which might be enclosed to the Speaker. He therefore moved that the paper should not be read.

Mr. Stanley observed that he did not perceive the difference stated by his colleague; nor did he know how the gentleman could anticipate the contents of a communication before read. We shall be enabled to judge better of it when we hear it. By what inspiration could the gentleman form a judgment now? The communication appeared to him of the utmost importance. He hoped, therefore, it would be read.

Mr. Morris could not omit making a remark or two. From the communication, so far as read, it appeared that it was charged that the character of a former public officer had been aspersed. The House ought, therefore, not only to read the communication, but also to inquire into the complaint. There was not an indecent expression in it. The writer complains that his character has been attacked; he thinks unjustly attacked. It will be the height of injustice to refuse him an opportunity of being heard.

The Speaker said that it was a rule of the House that when the reading of a paper is called for, it shall be read, unless dispensed with by general consent.

Mr. Randolph said he wished only to observe, that there was but one principle (and that had been stated by the Speaker) on which these papers ought to be read. Any member had a right to call for the reading of papers. To him, however, it appeared that there was no occasion for inspiration to perceive that the papers, so far as read, were in a high degree indecent, unworthy of any man who had held, or ought to hold, an office under Government, and derogatory from the dignity of the House. Members were cited by name; insults were offered to individual members; a committee was divided into different sects; on one class illiberal calumnies were thrown, while the other class was shielded from reflection. Was this decent or indecent? He congratulated himself that he differed as widely on this subject as he did on others from gentlemen.

Mr. Morris said, however widely he might differ on this as well as other subjects from the gentleman from Virginia, he believed his own ideas of what was decent or indecent as correct as those of that gentleman. The letter states that a report had been made during the last session implicating the character of the writer. It further states that certain gentlemen on the committee did not concur in the report. This the writer knew from the debates upon the report. He therefore thought it his duty, in vindicating himself, to exonerate those members from censure. Was this indecent? He conceived not.

Mr. M. said that when he had observed that there was not an indecent expression in the letter, he meant that there was no such expression applied to the House collectively. He did not mean to say there were no charges against individual members. But if there were charges against individual members, that was no reason for the House refusing to hear it. That could only be done when charges were made against the House in its collective character.

The Speaker read the rules of the House that applied to the case before them.

Mr. Alston said he only rose to notice the observation of his colleague, (Mr. Stanley,) who supposed he saw the inside of the communication before it was presented. This he denied. He had grounded his motion exclusively on what he had heard read.

Mr. Bacon was at a loss to decide on the propriety of reading or not reading these papers. He perceived that they contained not only a complaint, but a high charge against a committee of the House, stating that the major part assumed to act exclusively upon the business assigned to the whole committee, without consulting the other members. This was a high charge. Whether proper, or regularly made, he did not know. It was rather his opinion that the House ought to proceed in reading the papers, and afterwards to pass proper order on them.

The Speaker declared the rule for reading imperative, and Mr. Alston withdrew his motion; on which the Clerk proceeded in the reading, which was continued for more than an hour.

Wednesday, December 29.

Case of John P. Van Ness.

Mr. Davis called up his resolution instructing the Committee of Elections to inquire whether Mr. Van Ness had not forfeited his seat, by accepting the appointment of Major in the Militia of the Territory of Columbia.

Mr. Van Ness said that, so far as the decision of the House might affect him personally, he felt little concern; but, so far as it affected him as a representative of an important State, he was not so indifferent. He had no objection whatever to the proposed inquiry being made. As it involved the decision of an important principle, it deserved great attention. He had no doubt of the inquiry being made with that candor and fairness which, in most cases, characterized the proceedings of the House. He was far from imputing any impure motives to the mover or seconder of the resolution. It would be as derogatory to him to impute, as in them to entertain, any views dishonorable or base. He had risen barely to state his wish that an inquiry might be made.

Mr. Elmendorph proposed a verbal amendment, which was not agreed to.

The resolution was then adopted without a division.

Wednesday, January 5, 1803.

Cession of Louisiana to France.

Mr. Griswold called up his resolution respecting Louisiana, laid on the table yesterday, as follows:

Resolved, That the President of the United States be requested to direct the proper officer to lay before this House copies of such official documents as have been received by this Government, announcing the cession of Louisiana to France, together with a report explaining the stipulations, circumstances, and conditions, under which that province is to be delivered up: unless such documents and report will, in the opinion of the President, divulge to the House particular transactions not proper at this time to be communicated.

The question was put on taking it into consideration, and carried—yeas 35, nays 32.

Mr. Randolph observed that the discussion on this motion might embrace points nearly connected with the subject referred to a committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and which had been discussed with closed doors. He therefore thought it would be expedient to commit this motion also to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, to whom had been committed the Message of the President respecting New Orleans.

Mr. Griswold hoped the motion would not prevail. He did not see what argument could be urged in favor of it. The resolution related to a public transaction stated on their journal. He did not think that any thing which ought to be kept secret could be involved in the discussion of it. What is its purport? It only requests the President to furnish documents respecting "the cession of the Spanish province of Louisiana to France, which took place in the course of the late war," and which the President says "will, if carried into effect, make a change in the aspect of our foreign relations, which will doubtless have just weight in any deliberations of the Legislature connected with this subject."

Are not, said Mr. G., these papers important to the House? Does not the President refer to them as important to enlighten us? He speaks of the cession as a fact. He took it for granted the President would not make the declaration unless he had official information of its truth. Ought not the House to be possessed of all the important information in the power of the Executive to give? It certainly ought. Every gentleman would agree that the House ought to have all the information. If the information is confidential, it will be received with closed doors. But the question, whether the House shall obtain this information is a public question; and there was not a man within those walls, or in the United States, who would not say that the Legislature ought to possess every information on a subject so deeply interesting. Why, then, refer this resolution calling for information to a committee? Why postpone it? They had but a short time to sit. More than half the session was already elapsed. Is it not time to gain information? Mr. G. said, he would venture to declare that no subject so important could be brought before the Legislature this session. Ought we not, therefore, on such a subject, to take immediate means to gain information? He hoped the House would not agree to the reference, which could have no effect but to put the resolution asleep, and deprive the Legislature of information they ought to possess.

Mr. Randolph said, as he had expressed his disinclination to discuss a proposition with open doors which would trench on the decision of the House to discuss a subject to which it intimately related with closed doors, it could scarcely be expected that he should indulge the gentleman in entering into arguments calculated to carry him from his purpose. But he denied that the adoption of his motion would be a refusal to give information. He well knew that there was nothing easier than to declare the subject vastly important, and to make an eloquent harangue upon it, and to infer that those who did not immediately agree to the resolution were averse to giving information, and to going into a discussion of the merits of the main subject. It would, however, not be expected that he should enter upon these on a preliminary resolution. But he would assure the gentleman who had submitted this resolution, that, so far from indulging any disposition to be dilatory in his attention to this important subject, he came yesterday prepared to make a motion that the House should go into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, which motion he should have then made but for that offered by the gentleman from Connecticut.

Mr. Rutledge said that, did he consider that the giving publicity to any information on this subject would in the least interfere with the constitutional functions of the President, he would be the last man to support the resolution of his friend from Connecticut. But he could not conceive that this could be its effect. What were they about to ask? They were about to ask, in respectful terms, the President for information relative to what he states as a fact; so much information as he may think it expedient to give. Surely there would be no impropriety in this. The cession of Louisiana had been stated in all the public prints of Europe and this country, and on the floor of the British Parliament. This cession had been made a year ago, and, notwithstanding the elapse of this time, we have received no official information on this subject. Is it not natural for the people to ask why Congress do not call for this information? Will they not say the President has done his duty in stating the fact? Upon this subject, so very important, are they to be kept in the dark? Mr. R. could not conceive any turn of the debate on this resolution that could produce a discussion of the merits of the Message referred to the Committee of the Whole. If the President shall say the information he gives us ought not to be made public, he would answer for himself, and he believed he could answer for his friends, that they would not seek a public discussion. And if the information is imparted without confidence, the House, if it see fit, can itself control a public discussion. Mr. R. concluded with saying that, in the present case, he was for deciding on the resolution with open doors.

Mr. S. Smith thought this point ought in a great measure to be determined by the custom of the House in similar cases. He did not assert it as a fact, but, from recollection, he believed it was so, that when a call was made for papers in the case of the British Treaty, the question was referred to a Committee of the Whole, and there fully discussed. According to his recollection, one side of the House called for papers on the principle that, after negotiations were terminated, the House had a right to information before they made a grant of money under a treaty, but acknowledging that a call for such information might be improper during a pending negotiation. He was one of those who thought it proper, on that occasion, that the House should have the papers; but he also thought it improper, and had then so declared, to call for papers during a pending negotiation. Whether in the present instance a negotiation was pending or was not, he did not know. He was, therefore, for postponing the resolution till this was known to the House.

Mr. Dana said that he did not know, nor had he heard from any quarter, that there was any negotiation depending respecting the cession of Louisiana. The President has informed us of the fact. All that the resolution asks are official documents respecting the cession, with the stipulations, circumstances, and conditions, under which it is to be delivered up. He could not see the impropriety of such a request. But if the President deem it improper to furnish the information, we do not assert our right to demand it. There are two views in which this information may be important; that which may throw light on the boundaries of the province as ceded; and another, whether the province is to be ceded to the French in the condition it shall be in when actually delivered up, or whether subject to the conditions in which it was held according to treaty by Spain. This is important information to guide our deliberations; information not depending upon an existing negotiation, but upon a negotiation decided.

Mr. Griswold called for the taking of the yeas and nays.

Mr. Smilie was in favor of the widest publicity in every case where it would not prove injurious; and there were, in his opinion, very few cases in which it ought not to take place. He could not, however, withhold one remark; that gentlemen should object to the mode now proposed, a mode similar to that adopted in like cases, greatly surprised him. [He here quoted the proceedings of the House on a call for papers in the case of the British Treaty.] That case furnished a precedent, by which it appeared that a motion for information was referred to a Committee of the Whole for a more full discussion.

Mr. Davis observed that, as he lived in that district of country most materially affected by the subject before the House, he thought it proper to express his opinion on the motion. He said he did not know what reason could be assigned for the motion, but that expressed by the gentleman from Virginia, to go into a Committee of the Whole in private, to propose certain resolutions that required secrecy.

Mr. D. said it had been his purpose yesterday to have submitted certain resolutions, which he should have done, but for the motion of the gentleman from Connecticut calling for information; after it was made he was willing to wait until all information was obtained that could be furnished. Suppose we go into a Committee of the Whole, what light can we expect from their deliberation? We can gain nothing. But let the call for information prevail; let us draw from the President such information as he may think it proper to give; and let us then refer that information to a Committee of the Whole, and they will be able to deliberate wisely. What use can it be to take a step from which no benefit can be derived? As to the call on the President, he will not give us any thing that is improper. How does the gentleman from Virginia know what light this information may throw on the subject? Is he prepared to say it will throw no light on this subject? If he is, Mr. D. said he himself was not. He might have ways of acquiring the secrets of the Cabinet; but for himself he had no such opportunities. Mr. D. concluded by declaring himself against the motion.

Mr. Randolph was compelled again reluctantly to trespass on the indulgence of the House, to assure them, and the gentleman from Kentucky, that his motion did not comprehend a refusal to agree to the call for information made by the gentleman from Connecticut. After going into committee, they might, perhaps, either by a unanimous vote, or by that of a majority, agree to the resolution. Benefit might arise, and no mischief possibly could, from going into a Committee of the Whole.

Mr. Huger must acknowledge that he could not understand the object of those who were for refusing this information. If they had any objection to asking the information, let them inform us what it is. And if they have no objection, why go into a Committee of the Whole; which, if gone into, must be with closed doors? The question alluded to in the British Treaty was very different from this. In that case, one part of the House thought they had a right to demand the information of the Executive, and that he was bound to deliver it; while the other part of the House neither acknowledged the right to demand, nor the obligation to obey. The present case was entirely different. We ask nothing but what the Executive shall think proper to furnish, we are as cautious as we can possibly be; we even go so far as to put words in the President's mouth, if he shall think there is any impropriety in giving the information. Gentlemen certainly have confidence in the Executive, that he will tell us if the information is improper to be furnished.

Mr. H. could not but express his surprise that the House had received no official documents on this important subject. He could not comprehend why Congress should not know the contents of the convention. If proper, we ought to have these documents; and if not proper, we ought to have a reason for it. The country was in a state of serious alarm; and it might have a bad effect if something was not immediately done, and a disposition exhibited to act, in case it should prove necessary.

Mr. Smilie said the gentleman, from South Carolina (Mr. Huger) was incorrect, when he stated that, in the case of the British Treaty one set of gentlemen had contended for the right of the House to demand papers. If this had been so, the resolution then proposed would have been peremptory; whereas the fact was that it was qualified by an exception of such papers as the President might consider it improper to furnish. [Mr. Smilie here quoted the journals, which confirmed his remark.]

Mr. Gregg said it would be allowed that this was an important resolution, which related to an important subject. This was, he believed, the first instance in which a resolution allowed to be important, had been refused a reference to a Committee of the Whole. On this principle his vote would be decided. If the motion did not prevail he should then move that the resolution should be printed before it was acted upon.

Mr. Griswold would not object to the reference if the object were to obtain a more full discussion of the resolution. He was generally in favor of such references, as the discussion was conducted in a Committee of the Whole on a freer scale than in the House. On this principle it was, that the call for papers respecting the British Treaty was referred to a Committee of the Whole. But it had not been referred to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.

He, however, understood the object of gentlemen to be to refer the resolution to a Committee of the Whole, for the purpose of discussing it with closed doors. If that were the object, he should oppose it. For, he would say, nothing of secrecy could arise out of the discussion of this resolution. He did not wish that a resolution so important should be referred to a secret committee. If gentlemen mean to deny us this information, let them deny it in public. Let them not do it in a secret committee. Surely they can have no such unworthy motives.

As to the case of 1796, under the British Treaty, the ground of opposition was this: It was claimed that the House had a right to decide upon a treaty, and to establish this point papers were called for. And on the decision of the question, on the granting or refusing the application, depended the establishment of the right of the House to participate in the treaty-making power. This right was denied by those who voted against the call. But in this case there was no difference as to the power of the House. The President in his Message had expressly stated that the cession would have weight in the deliberations of the Legislature. This, then, being a case in which it is proper to legislate, shall we go to work blindfold, without having all the information possessed by the Executive, that it is proper we should possess? What do we know respecting the cession? Though made for more than one year, we have no information, except that contained in the Message, which barely mentions the fact. For these reasons Mr. G. hoped the motion would not prevail, as its avowed object was not for a more full discussion, but for the purpose of going into a secret committee. If gentlemen mean to deny us the information we ask, let the denial be public; and if they grant it, there is no reason against their doing it publicly.

Mr. Randolph.—The gentleman from Connecticut tells us that this subject is referred to in the Message of the President, and that on it we are called by him to legislate. That subject has been referred to a Committee of the Whole; and yet, he says, it is improper to refer this resolution to the same committee. This may be logic; but I confess, if it is, I do not understand it. He says if the object of reference be for a more ample discussion, he will be in favor of it; but not so, if it be to send it to a secret committee. Does the gentleman mean to insinuate that the debates of this body are for the entertainment of the ladies who honor us with their presence; or that as soon as our doors are shut, our ears also are shut to all useful and necessary information? If the doors shall be closed, cannot we still agree to the resolution? However gentlemen may persist in the course they have taken, I shall not permit the warmth of their remarks, or that of my own feelings, to betray me into a debate on points which the House have determined shall be discussed with closed doors. For my own part, I am ready to declare that I have arguments to advance, that it is not my wish to advance with open doors.

Mr. Bacon said the resolution simply called for information respecting the cession of the province of Louisiana to the French. He did not see the end to be answered by committing it. Is there any doubt that we shall not stand in need of information when we come to discuss points connected with this subject? It appeared to him they would. He was therefore against the reference.

Mr. S. Smith.—The gentleman from Connecticut has candidly admitted that it is customary in such cases to make a reference; that he is not in favor of the reference being made to a committee with shut doors; but if the object were to obtain a free discussion, he would not object to it. He is told that a full and free discussion cannot be had without such a reference, and yet he persists in his hostility to the motion. He had been told so by the mover, and common sense would have told him so at first; yet he is for taking advantage of the mover, and for shutting out the arguments he has to urge. The gentleman is mistaken in his statement of the motives of the different sides of the House in the discussion on a call for papers, in 1796, when he represents one side as claiming a right to participate in the treaty-making power. He recollected it had been charged upon them; but they had denied it. We contended, said Mr. S., that when a treaty was formed, appropriating a large sum of money, we had a right to appropriate or not to appropriate the money; but we never assumed the right to say whether the treaty was concluded or not. Afterwards, gentlemen themselves, if he recollected right, moved a resolution that it was expedient to carry the treaty into effect, by which they did admit the right of the House. Mr. S. said he had no previous knowledge of what the gentleman from Virginia meant by his motion; he might perhaps wish to amend the resolution; but when he says he has arguments that he cannot urge without shut doors, he trusted that indulgence would be allowed him, or there would be a denial of justice.

Mr. Dana said, there was a magic of language, to those unaccustomed to parliamentary language, in the House resolving itself into a committee, and that committee returning itself back into the House, both composed of the same members, that made the proceedings of public bodies appear ridiculous. But there were substantial benefits derived from the observance of these forms. There was a fuller and freer discussion; every member spoke as often as he chose, and they enjoyed the Speaker's advice. There were, besides, two discussions and decisions, instead of one. He admitted, therefore, the propriety of such procedure in all cases where there was an important principle involved. But in this instance there was no important principle to discuss. There was an important principle involved in the famous question of 1796. It was therefore right to refer it to a Committee of the Whole. He did not know what principle was to be discussed on this reference, unless it was the want of information. This he most sensibly felt; and those gentlemen who also felt it, might, he thought, be indulged by those who possess all information on the subject. If any gentleman, however, will say that any important principle is involved in the resolution, he was ready to go into Committee of the Whole, though not with closed doors.

The question was then taken by yeas and nays on Mr. Randolph's motion, to refer the resolution of Mr. Griswold to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and carried—yeas 49, nays 39, as follows:

Yeas.—Willis Alston, John Archer, Theodorus Bailey, Richard Brent, Robert Brown, William Butler, Thomas Claiborne, Matthew Clay, John Clopton, John Condit, Richard Cutts, John Dawson, Lucas Elmendorph, Ebenezer Elmer, William Eustis, Edwin Gray, Andrew Gregg, John A. Hanna, Joseph Heister, William Hoge, James Holland, David Holmes, George Jackson, Michael Leib, David Meriwether, Samuel L. Mitchill, Thomas Moore, Anthony New, Thomas Newton, jr., Joseph H. Nicholson, John Randolph, jr., John Smilie, John Smith, (of New York,) John Smith, (of Virginia,) Josiah Smith, Samuel Smith, Henry Southard, Richard Stanford, Joseph Stanton, jr., John Stewart, John Taliaferro, jr., David Thomas, Philip R. Thompson, Abraham Trigg, John Trigg, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Isaac Van Horne, and Thomas Wynns.

Nays.—John Bacon, Phanuel Bishop, Thos. Boude, John Campbell, Manasseh Cutler, Samuel W. Dana, John Davenport, Thomas T. Davis, John Dennis, Wm. Dickson, Calvin Goddard, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, Seth Hastings, William Helms, Joseph Hemphill, Archibald Henderson, Benjamin Huger, Samuel Hunt, Thomas Lowndes, Ebenezer Mattoon, Lewis R. Morris, Thomas Morris, James Mott, Elias Perkins, Thomas Plater, Nathan Read, John Rutledge, William Shepard, John Cotton Smith, John Stanley, Benjamin Tallmadge, Samuel Tenney, Samuel Thatcher, Thos. Tillinghast, George B. Upham, Peleg Wadsworth, Lemuel Williams, and Henry Woods.

On motion of Mr. Griswold, the House immediately went into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.

Mr. Randolph rose, and observed that he held in his hands certain resolutions connected with the Message of the President, relative to the late proceedings at New Orleans, the discussion of which had been ordered to be carried on with closed doors. He asked the decision of the question, whether, previously to offering his resolutions, the doors ought not to be closed? The resolutions he meant to submit grew out of the Message. If the House, however, insisted upon their being then read, he had no indisposition to read them.

The Chairman considered the committee as incompetent to clearing the galleries. He thought it must be the act of the House.

Mr. Dawson inquired if the same rules that applied to the House, did not also apply to Committees of the Whole?

Mr. Randolph called for the reading of the President's Message respecting New Orleans.

Mr. Griswold said there was other business, not requiring secrecy, referred to the committee.

Mr. Randolph repeated his call for the reading of the President's Message.

The Chairman asked what Message?

Mr. Randolph replied, the confidential Message.

Mr. Griswold said that could not be read with open doors.

The Chairman said the doors could not be closed without an order of the House.

Mr. S. Smith observed that it had been customary to clear the galleries before the House went into committee. To save time, he would move that the committee should rise, in order to obtain an order of the House to that effect.

Mr. Griswold hoped the committee would not rise. The business he had proposed was of a public, not of a private nature. It was also of a pressing nature, and ought not to be postponed for any other business.

Mr. Dana hoped, indeed, for the honor of the House, they would not exhibit the spectacle of wasting time in going into committee and then coming out of it without doing any thing, but would proceed to the public business.

Mr. Rutledge.—The gentleman from Virginia holds in his hands resolutions that require secrecy. After deciding on the motion of the gentleman from Connecticut, he will not be precluded from offering these resolutions.

Mr. Eustis said if the House had resolved itself into a committee for the express purpose of taking into consideration the resolution of the gentleman from Connecticut, it would be proper to give it the preference over any other business; and in that case he should have been as ready at this moment as at any other to offer his objections to it. But if it were understood that the House had resolved itself generally into a Committee on the state of the Union, one gentleman from Virginia having made a motion, and another gentleman from Connecticut having afterwards made another motion, that made by the last gentleman being junior in point of time ought to be last attended to. The other gentleman's motion was first in course; and if the gentleman who offered it desired the galleries to be cleared, he had an undoubted right to an order to that effect.

Mr. Macon (Speaker) remarked that a Committee of the whole House was one committee, and a Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union another committee. They were distinct committees. The last was never formed for special purposes. He did not recollect that this had ever been done. Whereas the other committee was always formed for a special purpose. The difficulty in this case had arisen from referring the confidential Message to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. He believed it would be well to rise, and separate the two subjects that had been referred to the Committee on the state of the Union.

Mr. Griswold did not understand what the gentleman from Massachusetts meant by priority of motion. The Chairman had determined that the motion of the gentleman from Virginia was not in order, as it could not be submitted to a public committee. After this disposition of that motion, none remained before the committee other than his own. In point of priority, he rose, therefore, to have his resolution then decided upon. With regard to the proposition of the honorable Speaker, he did not see any reason for it. Was it not as well to decide on this resolution in this committee as in any other committee? Why, then, rise for the purpose of referring it to a secret committee?

Mr. S. Smith said, the gentleman from Massachusetts meant by his remarks that the Message of the President had precedence. The gentleman from Connecticut was only now urging what had been decided against him in the House. He thinks he has now an advantage, and presses it.

Mr. S. said, he had not a doubt that the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Rutledge) is very sincere in his opinion, that, if we will agree to submit all power to them, they will indulge us by agreeing to certain subordinate points. But gentlemen will excuse us. We have already taken great pains to divest them of power, and we are not yet disposed to return it into their hands.

We are of opinion that the Message ought to be discussed with closed doors; that is the intention of the motion; let us not take advantage of those who have arguments to offer which they wish not to submit with open doors; let the committee rise, and the galleries be cleared.

Mr. Dana, in one point, fully agreed with the gentleman from Maryland. They had taken great pains to get power. But he regretted that any political party allusion whatever had been made on this subject. He had supposed it so important, so deeply interesting to all America, that he had hoped all spirit of party would have slept during our deliberations on it; and that we should have shown that we entertained but one sentiment, and were ready, if necessary, to extend one arm in defence of our invaded rights.

Mr. L. R. Morris expressed his disagreement with the Speaker on a point of order—

When the question was taken on the rising of the committee, and carried in the affirmative—ayes 49, noes 37.

The committee accordingly rose, and the Chairman reported that they had come to no resolution.

A motion was made to adjourn, on which Mr. Griswold called the yeas and nays; which were—yeas 38, nays 51.

Navigation of the Mississippi.

[Secret Session.]

The House was then cleared of all persons, except the members and the Clerk: Whereupon the House resumed the consideration of a confidential communication from the President of the United States, received the thirty-first ultimo.

Ordered, That the Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union, to whom was referred the Message of the President of the United States of the twenty-second and thirtieth ultimo, be discharged from the consideration thereof; and that the said Message, together with the documents transmitted therewith, be committed to a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.

On a motion made and seconded that the House do come to the following resolution:

Resolved, That this House receive, with great sensibility, the information of a disposition in certain officers of the Spanish Government at New Orleans, to obstruct the navigation of the river Mississippi, as secured to the United States by the most solemn stipulations.

That, adhering to the humane and wise policy which ought ever to characterize a free people, and by which the United States have always professed to be governed; willing, at the same time, to ascribe this breach of compact to the unauthorized misconduct of certain individuals, rather than to a want of good faith on the part of His Catholic Majesty; and relying with perfect confidence on the vigilance and wisdom of the Executive, they will wait the issue of such measures as that department of the Government shall have pursued for asserting the rights and vindicating the injuries of the United States; holding it to be their duty, at the same time, to express their unalterable determination to maintain the boundaries, and the rights of navigation and commerce through the river Mississippi, as established by existing treaties.

Ordered, That the said motion be referred to the Committee of the whole House last appointed.

Thursday, January 6.

Cession of Louisiana.

[Public Session.]

Mr. Griswold moved that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on his resolution respecting Louisiana.

Mr. Dawson was opposed to the motion, for reasons before assigned.

Mr. Griswold said the gentleman did not understand what he had proposed. It had been the wish of gentlemen to separate the consideration of his resolution from other subjects referred to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. For which purpose he had been willing to refer it to a Committee of the Whole. But he was averse to referring it to a secret committee; as he did not perceive its connection with any subject that required secrecy. The discussion on it ought, in his opinion, to be public. It was not necessary for him to repeat that it was of a pressing nature. It respected the obtaining information on a subject, he would say, of greater importance than any which could come before Congress that session. One third of the session was gone, and yet the Legislature had no information before them. He hoped there was no disposition entertained by gentlemen to embarrass this proposition with points unconnected with it. The proposition was extremely simple. Called upon by the President to legislate on the subject of the cession of Louisiana, we do not know the precise state of that cession. To legislate correctly, we want to be informed of all the circumstances. If gentlemen are disposed to deny us this information, let the denial be public. Do not let them refer this motion to a secret committee, where they may deny us the information we ask on reasons which we cannot divulge. Mr. G. concluded by calling for the yeas and nays.

Mr. S. Smith asked if this were not the precise motion decided yesterday by the House? He thought it had been referred to a Committee of the Whole. He had considered it as having taken that course. When we go into committee the gentlemen will see whether we shall refuse them the information. Perhaps we shall see that it is of such a nature as we ought to possess. He did not himself know how that was; nor did he mean to commit himself by any remarks which he had made. He trusted gentlemen would remember their vote yesterday, and not suffer themselves to be put out of their course by this extraordinary mode of conducting business.

Mr. Lowndes demanded whether, even if the motion were the same, there was any impropriety in putting it again to-day; and whether it were not perfectly consistent with the rules of order to go into a committee, and take up the resolution? If there ever was a resolution offered to that House which ought to obtain a unanimous vote, it was that of his honorable friend from Connecticut; which proposes simply the calling for such information as the President might see fit to give on a most important subject that had excited the sensibility of the whole nation. The President himself, in his Message, alludes to the subject as one which may require Legislative interposition, and gentlemen persist in refusing us this information. It was a most extraordinary circumstance in the annals of the United States, that, notwithstanding the magnitude of the cession of Louisiana, the length of time since it was made, and the necessary consequence of having a new and powerful neighbor on our frontier, we had yet no official information on the subject. The President in his Message really tells us nothing. He says "the cession of the Spanish province of Louisiana to France, which took place in the course of the late war,"—this we had been told long before by the public prints, and in a discussion before the British Parliament—but he goes on and says—"will, if carried into effect, make a change in the aspect of our foreign relations, which will doubtless have just weight in any deliberations of the Legislature connected with that subject." To this the understanding of every schoolboy is competent. It was really surprising that gentlemen should wish to reject such a call as this. It was not probable that the President had been so unmindful of his duty as not to have demanded an explanation through our Ministers at the Court of Spain, or at Paris. If he has this information, and it is of a nature proper to be known to us, we ought immediately to obtain it, that we may not be slumbering at our posts on an infraction of our rights.

Mr. L. suspected gentlemen had not correctly attended to the resolution. It only requests the President to lay such information before the House as he may think proper. Are gentlemen then afraid to trust to the discretion of the President? Are they apprehensive lest he should communicate that which is improper? He hoped they had more confidence in the Executive. He thought this call should precede any resolutions. He could not disconnect the shutting of the port of New Orleans from the cession of Louisiana. There appeared to be a natural connection between these two events. He was afraid that the shutting the port was ominous of the disposition of Spain to cede the province to France, independently of any encumbrances she may have imposed upon herself. He was afraid France in this transaction would consult her interests and convenience, and not our rights. We well knew the grounds on which that nation interpreted treaties, and we had no reason from that knowledge to repress our fears. An observation of the gentleman from Virginia had given him great uneasiness. That gentleman had told us, if Spain had ceded Louisiana to France she had a right to cede it. This Mr. L. was not prepared to say. He did not think Spain had a right to give to America what she pleased; much less give her a new neighbor, under circumstances different from those by which she held the province. He was not, however, then disposed to discuss the abstract question involved in this subject. He trusted the resolution calling for information would be agreed to. The House need not fear that, in asking this information, they would not speak the sense of the people; and, if other measures were necessary, they would also, in adopting them, speak the sense of the nation.

Mr. Bacon said it was not uncommon to hear of extraordinary occurrences in that House. One mode of reasoning yesterday had great weight, that asserted a connection between the resolution and the subject of New Orleans, which had been taken up and referred to a committee with closed doors. One subject appeared to him to be not only nearly connected, but to form an essential part of the other. For what purpose this resolution should be separated from the general subject, he could not conceive. Why do we want information, but that we may have a more clear view of the general subject? He could not see any detached purpose for which it was required. Why then divide it into little detached parts? Until he could hear reasons for such a division, he should be against the reference.

Mr. Hemphill observed that the gentleman was mistaken in what passed yesterday. The gentleman from Maryland had first stated the subjects as similar; that ground was afterwards abandoned, and they were considered as distinct. There were only two points connected with the subject before the House in which documents could be required or secrecy necessary. The one related to the cession of Louisiana; the other to the shutting the port of New Orleans. The former, though not referred to a committee, was as important as the latter, which had been referred. In the last case we deemed it important to have and request papers. The resolution before them related to the first point; it had been deemed of sufficient importance to refer it to a committee, and this afforded good reasons for calling for papers respecting the cession. He begged leave to refer to the Message, which says the cession "will, if carried into effect, make a change in the aspect of our foreign relations, which will doubtless have just weight in any deliberations of the Legislature connected with that subject." The House will perceive that the language of the Message is hypothetical—the words are, "if carried into effect." How then can we deliberate on this subject, unless we know the degree of probability there is, that it will be carried into effect? A knowledge of the circumstances necessary to ascertain this, appeared to be absolutely indispensable.

If likely to be carried into effect, the next question is, as to the time when it will be carried into effect. When these two inquiries were solved, another naturally offered itself: Is France to take the province subject to existing treaties, or as she shall receive it at the time of delivery? All these circumstances it was necessary for Congress to know, before they could act correctly.

What necessity there was for secrecy in the discussion of this resolution, Mr. Hemphill could not conceive. All the information we have on the subject is contained in the President's Message, which every person in the United States knows as well as we do. It appeared to him that when their deliberations turned on facts which every body knew, they ought to be public. His ideas of secrecy were these: that policy might require certain facts to be kept secret for a time; but, when made known, their arguments on them ought not to be secret. In this opinion he was strengthened by the rule of the House. [Mr. H. here read the rule on that point, which prescribes that the galleries shall be cleared whenever a confidential communication shall be received from the President, or whenever the Speaker or any other member shall inform the House that he has communications to make which he conceives ought to be kept secret.] Mr. H. asked on which branch of this rule could the arguments of gentlemen be predicated? The President had not sent them a confidential communication, nor had any member said he had communications to make which he conceived ought to be kept secret. The information referred to in the rule meant facts, and not arguments drawn from facts. He concluded by saying he saw no occasion whatever for discussing this proposition with closed doors.

Mr. Dawson.—The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Lowndes) says there is a material connection between the shutting the port of New Orleans and the cession of Louisiana. After, then, that part of the discussion which related to New Orleans had been ordered to be conducted with shut doors, how proper was it in him to introduce into debate a subject intimately connected with it? His opposition to the present motion did not arise from an indisposition fully to discuss the subject to which it referred; but from an indisposition to delay the discussion of the motion offered by his colleague. Against the present motion he should vote, because it promised nothing useful, and might be mischievous. We have been told that this subject is important and pressing. That it was important he felt; but he did not believe it was pressing. He could say, if the time should ever arrive when it became that House to act, this was not the time. When the time did arrive, he was prepared to act. Gentlemen were very anxious on this subject. He rejoiced to witness their anxiety. But he and his friends were not now to hear who were the friends of the Western country. The people of that country doubted not the protection of the Government. They were warmly attached to the Government, and knew that every thing would be done, that ought to be done, to protect and defend their rights.

Mr. Bacon said, if he understood the gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. Hemphill,) he perfectly agreed with him in opinion, that this resolution was connected with the subject of New Orleans. He agreed with him as to their inseparable connection. But the only difference was that they inferred opposite consequences from the same premises. He, Mr. B., contended that the resolution made a part of the same general subject, and ought not to be divided from it. They say it ought to be divided.

Mr. Hemphill, replied that he had spoken as plainly as he could. He had said the subjects were distinct.

Mr. Goddard.—The gentleman from Massachusetts yesterday told us the call for information ought to be public, though the information itself should be secret. This reasoning had been satisfactory to him then; he had hoped it would have also proved so to-day. But it appears that he is now for sending us to a secret committee. Mr. G. said in his opinion, the call ought to be public, whatever the nature of the information might be. This information gentlemen will either deny or grant. They say it is not to be denied. Why then go into a committee? And if granted, why not grant it without assigning reasons, as well as with assigning them? Are we to be told by the gentleman from Virginia, there is no occasion for this call; that we have information enough? How does that honorable gentleman get his information? If from the cabinet, are we, the representatives of the people, to obtain it from him? Surely this will be degrading to our characters. We may believe it is true as coming from him, but, as representatives, we should spurn at receiving it in such a channel. We want official information, but gentlemen say they want to go into secret committee on this resolution. What will be the good of this? Though he could not say what was done in secret yesterday, he might say what had not been done. They had done nothing; and if they went into secret session again, the consequence would be the same.

Mr. Randolph felt extremely reluctant to rise in this stage of the discussion, but he deemed it time to repel insinuations so frequently thrown out as perhaps to gain some credit, if they were permitted to pass entirely unnoticed. We are averse to take up the motion of the gentleman from Connecticut, and wherefore? Because, as our opponents would fain have it believed, we are insensible to the vast interest affected by the obstruction of the Mississippi? No, sir, because we are alive to this delicate and momentous subject; because we wish to act upon it; because we wish to go into committee on the confidential Message of the Executive; because the information required by the motion before you is not necessary to determine us in the course which we ought, and, I trust, will pursue; and because these preliminary questions, whatever be their object, are, in effect, only calculated to retard and to embarrass the decision of this House on this great question. Sir, I am content that gentlemen should repeat after each other the trite observations which have been so often reiterated of the magnitude of the object in question. I am content that they should make the best possible display of their ardor on this occasion. But wherefore this exhibition of a zeal so inordinate as to arrogate to itself all sensibility to the national welfare? Since gentlemen insist upon it, since they provoke the discussion, I must request to be indulged in some remarks on the history of this subject. And in reply to the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. Goddard,) I must be permitted to observe that such of my information as may have been derived from the Executive is equally accessible to every member of this House, and I believe to every reputable citizen in the Union, who chooses to apply for it. That, however, which I am about to present, is derived from a source accessible to the whole world. It is to be found in a document of inestimable value, (the debates of the Virginia Convention in 1788,) and might truly be said to be official. It is an account given in his official character of member of Congress, and under the old confederation, by that able and eminent man, that faithful and illustrious public servant, the late Governor of Virginia, to the Convention of that State, at their requisition. At his own suggestion the Legislature of the State had declined to insist upon it. To the Convention it was given, (however reluctantly,) as to a paramount authority. [Here Mr. E. read Mr. Monroe's speech.][73]

"After some desultory conversation, Mr. Monroe spoke as follows: Mr. Chairman—My conduct respecting the transactions of Congress upon this interesting subject, since my return to the State, has been well known to many worthy gentlemen here. I have been often called upon before this, in a public line, and particularly in the last Assembly, whilst I was present, for information in regard to these transactions; but have heretofore declined it, and for reasons that were held satisfactory. Being amenable, upon the principles of the Federal compact, to the Legislature, for my conduct in Congress, it cannot be doubted, if required, it was my duty to obey their directions; but that honorable body thought it best to dispense with such demand. The right in this Assembly is unquestionably more complete, having power paramount to that; but even here I could wish it had not been exerted as I understand it to be, by going into committee for that purpose. Before, however, I enter into this subject, I cannot but observe, it has given me pain to hear it treated by honorable gentlemen in a manner that has appeared not altogether free from exception. For they have not gone into it fully, and given a proper view of the transaction in every part, but of those only which preceded, and were subsequent to that, which had been the particular object of inquiry; a conduct that has seemed too much calculated to make an impression favorable to their wishes in the present instance. But, in making this observation, I owe it to those gentlemen to declare, that it is my opinion such omission has proceeded, not from intention, but their having forgotten facts, or to some cause not obvious to me, and which I make no doubt they will readily explain.

"The policy of this State, respecting this river, has always been the same. It has contemplated but one object, the opening it for the use of the inhabitants, whose interest depended on it; and in this she has, in my opinion, shown her wisdom and magnanimity. I may, I believe, with propriety say, that all the measures that have at any time been taken by Congress for that purpose, were adopted at the instance of this State. There was a time, it is true, sir, when even this State, in some measure, abandoned the object, by authorizing its cession to the Court of Spain. But let us take all circumstances into view, as they were at that time, and I am persuaded it will by no means show a departure from this liberal and enlightened system of policy, although it may manifest an accommodation to the exigencies which pressed on us at the time. The Southern States were overrun, and in possession of the enemy. The governments of South Carolina and Georgia were prostrate, and opposition there at an end. North Carolina made but a feeble resistance; and Virginia herself was greatly harassed by the enemy in force at that time in the heart of the country, and by impressments for her own and the defence of the Southern States. In addition to this, the finances of the United States were in a deplorable condition, if not totally exhausted; and France, our ally, seemed anxious for peace; and as the means of bringing the war to a more happy and speedy conclusion, the object of this cession was the hopes of uniting Spain in it with all her forces. If I recollect aright, too, at this moment, the Minister of the United States, at the Court of Madrid, informed Congress of the difficulty he found in prevailing upon that Court to acknowledge our independence, or take any measure in our favor, suggested the jealousy with which it viewed our settlements in the Western country, and the probability of better success, provided we would cede the navigation of this river, as the consideration. The latter circumstances were made known to the Legislature, and they had their weight. All inferior objects must yield to the safety of the society itself. A resolution passed to that effect. An act of Congress likewise passed; and the Minister of the United States had full authority to relinquish this valuable right to that Court, upon the condition above stated. But what was the issue of this proposition? Was any treaty made with Spain that obtained any acknowledgment of our independence, although at war with Great Britain; and such acknowledgment would have cost her nothing? Was a loan of money accomplished? In short, does it appear that even Spain herself thought it an object of any importance? So soon as the war ended, this resolution was rescinded. The power to make such a treaty was revoked. So that this system of policy was departed from, only for a short time, for the most important object that can be conceived, and resumed again as soon as it possibly could be.

"After the peace, it became the business of Congress to investigate the relation of these States to the different powers of the earth, in a more extensive view than they had hitherto done, and particularly in the commercial line; and to make arrangements for entering into treaties with them on such terms as might be mutually beneficial for each party. As the result of the deliberations of that day, it was resolved, 'That commercial treaties be formed, if possible, with said powers, those of Europe in particular, Spain included, upon similar principles; and three Commissioners, Mr. Adams, Mr. Franklin, and Mr. Jefferson, be appointed for that purpose.' So that an arrangement for a treaty of commerce with Spain had already been taken. Whilst these powers were in force, a representative from Spain arrived, authorized to treat with the United States on the interfering claims of the two nations, respecting the Mississippi, and the boundaries, and other concerns, wherein they were respectively interested. A similar commission was given to the honorable Secretary of Foreign Affairs, on the part of the United States, with these ultimata, 'That he enter into no treaty, compact, or convention whatever, with the said representative of Spain, which did not stipulate our right to the navigation of the Mississippi, and the boundaries as established in our treaty with Great Britain.' And thus the late negotiation commenced, under auspices, as I supposed, very favorable to the wishes of the United States; for Spain had become sensible of the propriety of cultivating the friendship of these States. Knowing our claim to the navigation of the river, she had sent a Minister hither principally to treat on that point; and the time would not be remote when, under the increasing population of the country, the inhabitants would be able to open it without our assistance or her consent. These circumstances being considered, was it not presumable she intended to make a merit of her concession to our wishes, and to agree to an accommodation upon that subject, that would not only be satisfactory, but highly pleasing to the United States? But what was the issue of this negotiation? How was it terminated? Has it forwarded the particular object in view, or otherwise promoted the interests and the harmony of the States, or any of them! Eight or ten months elapsed without any communications of its progress to Congress. At length a letter was received from the Secretary, stating that difficulties had arisen in his negotiation with the representative of Spain, which, in his opinion, should be so managed as that even their existence should remain a secret for the present; and proposing that a committee be appointed with full power to direct and instruct him in every case relative to the proposed treaty. As the only ultimata appointed in his instructions respected the Mississippi and the boundaries, it readily occurred that these occasioned the difficulties alluded to, and were those he wished to remove. And, for many reasons, this appeared, at least to me, an extraordinary proposition. By the Articles of Confederation nine States are necessary to enter into treaties. The instruction is the foundation of the treaty; for if it is formed agreeable thereto, good faith requires that it be ratified. The practice of Congress has also been always, I believe, in conformity to this idea. The instructions under which our commercial treaties have been made, were carried by nine States. Those under which the Secretary now acted were passed by nine States. The proposition, then, would be, that the powers which, under the constitution, nine States only were competent to, should be transferred to a committee, and the object thereby to disengage himself from the ultimata already mentioned in his existing instructions. In this light the subject was taken up, and on these principles discussed. The Secretary, Mr. Jay, being called before Congress to explain the difficulties mentioned in his letter, presented to their view the project of a treaty of commerce, containing, as he supposed, advantageous stipulations in our favor, in that line; in consideration for which we were to contract to forbear the use of the navigation of the river Mississippi for the term of 25 or 30 years, and earnestly advised our adopting it. The subject now took a decided form; there was no further ambiguity in it, and we were surprised, for reasons that have been already given, that he had taken up the subject of commerce at all. We were greatly surprised it should form the principal object of the project, and that a partial or temporary sacrifice of that interest, for the advancement of which the negotiation was set on foot, should be the consideration proposed to be given for it. But the honorable Secretary urged, that it was necessary to stand well with Spain; that the commercial project was a beneficial one, and should not be neglected; that a stipulation to forbear the use contained an acknowledgment, on her part, of the right in the United States; that we were in no condition to take the river, and therefore gave nothing for it; with other reasons which, perhaps, I have forgotten; for the subject in detail has nearly escaped my memory. We differed with the honorable Secretary, almost in every respect. We admitted, indeed, the propriety of standing well with Spain, but supposed we might accomplish that end, at least, on equal terms. We considered the stipulation to forbear the use, as a species of barter, that should never be countenanced in the councils of the American States, since it might tend to the destruction of the society itself; for a forbearance of the use of one river, might lead to more extensive consequences; to that of the Chesapeake, the Potomac, or any other of the rivers that emptied into it. In short, that the councils of the confederacy should be conducted with more magnanimity and candor, should contemplate the benefit of all parts upon common principles, and not the sacrifice of one part for that of another. There appeared to us a material difference between stipulating by treaty to forbear the use, and not being able to open the river. The former would be considered by the inhabitants of the Western country as an act of hostility; the latter might be justified by our inability. And, with respect to the commercial part of the project, we really thought it an ill-advised one on its own merits solely.

"Thus was this project brought before Congress, and so far as I recollect, in this form, and upon these principles. It was the subject of tedious and lengthy discussion in that honorable body. Every distinct measure that was taken I do not now remember, nor do I suppose it of consequence. I have shown the outlines of the transaction, which is, if I apprehend rightly, all that the committee wish to possess. The communications of the Secretary were referred to a Committee of the whole House. The Delegates of the seven easternmost States voted that the ultimata in the Secretary's instructions be repealed; which was reported to the House, and entered on the journal by the Secretary of Congress, that the question was carried. Upon this entry, a constitutional question arose to this effect: 'Nine States being necessary, by the Federal Constitution, to give an instruction; and seven having repealed a part of an instruction so given, for the formation of a treaty with a foreign power, so as to alter its import, and authorize, under the remaining part thereof, the formation of a treaty, on principles altogether different from what the said instruction originally contemplated, can such remaining part be considered as in force, and constitutionally obligatory?' We pressed on Congress for a decision on this point often, but without effect. Notwithstanding this, I understood it was the intention of the Secretary to proceed and conclude a treaty, in conformity to his project, with the Minister of Spain. In this situation I left Congress. What I have since heard, belongs not to me to discover. Other gentlemen have more ample information of this business, in the course it has taken, than I can possibly have been able to obtain; for, having done my duty whilst there, I left it for others who succeeded me to perform theirs, and I have made but little further inquiry respecting it. The animated pursuit that was made of this object, required, and, I believe, received, as firm an opposition. The Southern States were on their guard, and warmly opposed it. For my part, I thought it my duty to use every effort in Congress for the interest of the Southern States. But so far as it depended on me, with my official character, it ceased. With many of those gentlemen, to whom I always considered it as my particular misfortune to be opposed, I am now in habits of correspondence and friendship; and I am concerned for the necessity which has given birth to this relation.

"Whether the Delegates of those States spoke the language of their constituents; whether it may be considered as the permanent interest of such States to depress the growth and increasing population of the Western country, are points which I cannot pretend to determine. I must observe, however, that I always supposed it would, for a variety of reasons, prove injurious to every part of the Confederacy. These are well understood, and need not be dilated on here. If, however, such should be the interest of seven States, let gentlemen contemplate the consequences in the operation of the Government, as it applies to this subject. I have always been of opinion, sir, that the American States, to all national objects, had, in every respect, a common interest. Few persons would be willing to bind them together by a stronger or more indissoluble bond, or give the National Government more power than myself. I only wish to prevent it from doing harm, either to States or individuals; and the rights and interests of both, in a variety of instances, in which they are now left unprotected, might, in my opinion, be better guarded. If I have mistaken any facts, honorable gentlemen will correct me. If I omitted any, and it has not been intentional, so I shall be happy with their assistance to supply the defect.

"Mr. Monroe added several other observations, the purport of which was, that the interest of the Western country would not be as secure under the proposed constitution as under the Confederation; because, under the latter system, the Mississippi could not be relinquished without the consent of nine States, whereas by the former, he said, a majority of seven States could yield it. His own opinion was, that it would be given up by a majority of the Senators present in the Senate, with the President, which would put it in the power of less than seven States to surrender it. That the Northern States were inclined to yield it. That it was their interest to prevent an augmentation of the Southern influence and power; and that as mankind in general, and States in particular, were governed by interest, the Northern States would not fail of availing themselves of the opportunity given them by the constitution of relinquishing that river, in order to depress the Western country, and prevent the Southern interest from preponderating.

"Mr. Henry[74] then rose and requested that the honorable gentleman (Mr. Monroe) would discover the rest of the project, and what Spain was to do on her part, as an equivalent for the cession of the Mississippi.

"Mr. Monroe.—Mr. Chairman, I do not thoroughly recollect every circumstance relative to this project. But there was to be a commercial intercourse between the United States and Spain. We were to be allowed to carry our produce to the ports of Spain, and the Spaniards to have an equal right of trading hither. It was stipulated that there should be a reciprocity of commercial intercourse and benefits between the subjects of Spain and the citizens of the United States. The manufactures of Spain were to be freely imported and vended in this country, and our manufactures to be carried to Spain, &c., without obstruction, and both parties were to have mutual privileges in point of commercial intercourse and connection. This, sir, is the amount of the project of Spain, which was looked upon as advantageous to us. I thought myself that it was not. I considered Spain as being without manufactures, as the most slow in the progress of arts, and the most unwise, with respect to commerce, of all nations under the sun, (in which respect I thought Great Britain the wisest.) Their gentlemen and nobles look on commerce with contempt. No man of character among them will undertake it. They make little discrimination with any nation. Their character is to shut out all nations, and exclude every intercourse with them, and this would be the case with respect to us. Nothing is given to us by this project, but what is given to all other nations. It is bad policy, and unjustifiable on such terms to yield that valuable right. Their merchants have great stocks in trade. It is not so with our merchants. Our people require encouragement. Mariners must be encouraged. On a review of these circumstances, I thought the project unwise and impolitic."

Haying completed the reading, Mr. R. resumed his remarks. I have, said he, to ask pardon of the House for detaining them with the reading of so lengthy a document. That it contains perhaps the only correct historical detail extant of this truly curious transaction, must constitute my apology.

I will now ask, Mr. Speaker, who ever have been, and still are, the unshaken friends of the navigation of the Mississippi, and of the Western interests of this Union? It is not my wish, sir, on this occasion, to cast gentlemen opposed to us into the shade—to throw them into the background. All we ask is an equal share of confidence in our zeal to assert this great right, until we shall have proved ourselves unworthy of it. What is there then exhibited from the earliest period of our history? What fact has transpired which renders us undeserving of that confidence, or which entitles gentlemen on the other side of the House exclusively to it? Shall we then silently submit to the intolerant assumption on their part of all feeling for this important right, involving the vital interests of our country? Shall we sit down contented under the imputation of lukewarmness in this cause? or, shall we tell those gentlemen that under every circumstance, and in all situations, with closed doors, as well as with open doors, we have been, are, and ever will be, the unalterable supporters of the free navigation of the Mississippi?

The sentiments which have been displayed in the course of this proceeding, present a phenomenon in the history of what are termed regular Governments. When an Administration have formed the design of subverting the public liberties—of enriching themselves or their adherents out of the public purse, or of crushing all opposition beneath the strong hand of power—war has ever been the favorite ministerial specific. Hence have we seen men in power too generally inclined to hostile measures, and hence the opposition have been, as uniformly, the champions of peace—not choosing to nerve with new vigor (the natural consequence of war) hands, on whose hearts or heads they were unwilling to bestow their confidence. But how shall we account for the exception which is now exhibited to this hitherto received maxim? On the one part the solution is easy. An Administration under which our country flourishes beyond all former example—with no sinister views—seeking to pay off the public encumbrances, to lessen the public burdens, and to leave to each man the enjoyment of the fruits of his own labor, are, therefore, desirous of peace, so long as it can be preserved consistently with the interests and honor of the country. On the other hand, what do you see? Shall I say an opposition sickening at the sight of the public prosperity, seeking through war, confusion, and a consequent derangement of our finances, that aggrandizement which the public felicity must for ever forbid? No, sir, my respect for this House and for those gentlemen forbids this declaration, whilst, at the same time, I am unable to account on any other principle for their conduct. Mr. R. concluded by saying, that he had forborne these observations until they were extorted from him. He had hoped that gentlemen would have let the business take its course, after the decision of yesterday, and that the House would have gone into committee on the confidential Message; but gentlemen had insisted on discussing the merits of the navigation on a preliminary question. The business having taken that turn, he thought it due to himself and friends to repel the odium which it was endeavored to attach to them.

Mr. Dana thought it was not necessary on this subject to enter into a history of political parties in this country. And when the gentleman from Virginia undertook to give a history, he had no idea that he was about giving details of secret history. He had supposed he was about offering a general view of the subject. He did not know that it was to be stated who were friendly or unfriendly to the rights of our Western citizens, much less that there was an established hereditary hostility to them. He had supposed that all the gentlemen on that floor had expressed the wishes of the people; he had supposed there was but one opinion; he had heard of no insinuation of difference. The only difference which he had thought existed was as to the means to be used, and the time when those means should be carried into effect. But as to the natural right, and the ultimate enjoyment of the nation to the free navigation of the Mississippi, he asked what gentleman had charged another with any doubts on that? And when we all agree in this, whence the necessity of calling up the animosities of party? May not gentlemen express their opinions in favor of decided measures, when the voice of the nation had been so audibly expressed, without such expression being construed into a censure upon others? When, too, the opinions of other gentlemen on fundamental points coincided with your own? Is it necessary, when the whole nation is alive, to be moderate in the expression of our ideas? If we do not come from that part of the Union more immediately affected by the late measures at New Orleans, are we therefore to be indifferent and unconcerned spectators of events? If, standing here as Representatives of the United States, we are not at liberty to attend to any thing not confined to the trifling district of country we may each of us represent, miserable is the ground on which we stand, and humble indeed our condition! But let me say, even on this ground, the ship-owners and the merchants on the Atlantic are deeply interested. Our Western citizens are certainly more deeply interested in the freedom of the Mississippi; but it goes to the great interests of navigation generally. They feel it most; but we feel it much.