SEVENTH CONGRESS.—FIRST SESSION.

PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES

IN

THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, December 7, 1801.

This being the day appointed by the constitution for the annual meeting of Congress, the following members of the House of Representatives appeared, produced their credentials, and took their seats in the House, to wit:

From New Hampshire.—Abiel Foster, George P. Upham, and Samuel Tenney.

From Massachusetts.—William Eustis, John Bacon, Phanuel Bishop, Joseph B. Varnum, Richard Cutts, Lemuel Williams, William Shepard, Ebenezer Mattoon, Nathan Read, Josiah Smith, and Manasseh Cutler.

From Rhode Island.—Thomas Tillinghast, and Joseph Stanton, jr.

From Connecticut.—Roger Griswold, Samuel W. Dana, John Davenport, Calvin Goddard, Benjamin Tallmadge, Elias Perkins, and John C. Smith.

From Vermont.—Israel Smith.

From New York.—Samuel L. Mitchill, Philip Van Cortlandt, Theodorus Bailey, John Smith, Benjamin Walker, Thomas Morris, Killian K. Van Rensselaer, Lucas Elmendorph, David Thomas, and John P. Van Ness.

From New Jersey.—John Condit, James Mott, William Helms, Henry Southard, and Ebenezer Elmer.

From Pennsylvania.—William Jones, Michael Leib, John Smilie, William Hoge, Isaac Vanhorne, Joseph Heister, Robert Brown, Henry Woods, John A. Hanna, John Stewart, Thomas Boude, and Joseph Hemphill.

From Delaware.—James A. Bayard.

From Maryland.—John Archer, Joseph H. Nicholson, Samuel Smith, Richard Sprigg, John Dennis, and Thomas Plater.

From Virginia.—Thomas Newton, jr., John Randolph, jr., George Jackson, Philip R. Thompson, John Taliaferro, John Stratton, William B. Giles, Abram Trigg, John Trigg, Anthony New, John Smith, David Holmes, Richard Brent, Edwin Gray, and Matthew Clay.

From Kentucky.—Thomas T. Davis, and John Fowler.

From North Carolina.—Nathaniel Macon, Willis Alston, Richard Stanford, Charles Johnson, Archibald Henderson, and John Stanley.

From Tennessee.—William Dickson.

From South Carolina.—Thomas Sumter, Thomas Moore, and Thomas Lowndes.

From Georgia.—John Milledge.

From the North-west Territory.—Paul Fearing.

From Mississippi Territory.—Narsworthy Hunter.

A quorum, consisting of a majority, being present, the House proceeded, by ballot, to the choice of a Speaker; and, upon examining the ballots, a majority of the votes of the whole House was found in favor of Nathaniel Macon, one of the Representatives for the State of North Carolina: Whereupon, Mr. Macon was conducted to the chair, and he made his acknowledgments to the House as follows:

"Gentlemen: Accept my sincere thanks for the honor you have conferred on me, in the choice just made. The duties of the chair will be undertaken with great diffidence indeed; but it shall be my constant endeavor to discharge them with fidelity and impartiality."

The House proceeded, in the same manner, to the appointment of a Clerk; and, upon examining the ballots, a majority of the whole House was found in favor of John Beckley.

The oath to support the Constitution of the United States, as prescribed by law, was then administered by Mr. Griswold, one of the Representatives for the State of Connecticut, to the Speaker; and then the same oath, or affirmation, was administered, by Mr. Speaker, to each of the members present.

A message from the Senate informed the House that a quorum of the Senate is assembled, and ready to proceed to business; and that, in the absence of the Vice President, they have elected the honorable Abraham Baldwin, President of the Senate, pro tempore.

Ordered, That a message be sent to the Senate to inform them that a quorum of this House is assembled, and have elected Nathaniel Macon, one of the Representatives of the State of North Carolina, their Speaker, and are ready to proceed to business; and that the Clerk of this House do go with the said message.

The House proceeded, by ballot, to the choice of a Sergeant-at-Arms, Doorkeeper, and Assistant Doorkeeper; and upon examining the ballots, a majority of the votes of the whole House was found in favor of Joseph Wheaton, as Sergeant-at-Arms, and, also, a unanimous vote in favor of Thomas Claxton, and Thomas Dunn, severally, the former as Doorkeeper, and the latter as Assistant Doorkeeper.

A message from the Senate informed the House that the Senate have appointed a committee on their part, jointly, with such committee as may be appointed on the part of this House, to wait on the President of the United States, and inform him that a quorum of the two Houses is assembled, and ready to receive any communications he may think proper to make to them.

Mr. Samuel Smith, from the joint committee appointed to wait on the President of the United States, and notify him that a quorum of the two Houses is assembled and ready to receive any communication he may think proper to make to them, reported that the committee had performed that service, and that the President signified to them that he would make a communication to this House, to-morrow, by message.

Tuesday, December 8.

Several other members, to wit: from Pennsylvania, Andrew Gregg; from Virginia, Samuel J. Cabell; from North Carolina, James Holland; and from South Carolina, William Butler; appeared, produced their credentials, and took their seats in the House; the oath to support the Constitution of the United States being first administered to them by Mr. Speaker, according to law.

A petition of John McDonald, late of the city of Philadelphia, was presented to the House and read, praying that he may be employed to superintend the arrangement and safe-keeping of the books intended for the library of the two Houses of Congress; and that he may receive such compensation for his services, in that capacity, as to the wisdom of Congress shall seem meet.

Ordered, That the said petition be referred to the committee appointed yesterday, on the part of this House, jointly with the committee appointed by the Senate, to take into consideration a statement made by the Secretary of the Senate, respecting books and maps purchased pursuant to a late act of Congress, and to make report respecting the future arrangement of the same.

The following committees were appointed pursuant to the standing rules and orders of the House, viz:

Committee of Elections.—Mr. Milledge, Mr. Tenney, Mr. Condit, Mr. Dennis, Mr. Hanna, Mr. Stanley, and Mr. John Taliaferro.

Committee of Revised and Unfinished Business.—Mr. Davenport, Mr. Clay, and Mr. Alston.

Committee of Claims.—John Cotton Smith, Mr. Gregg, Mr. Holmes, Mr. Mattoon, Mr. John Smith, of New York, Mr. Plater, and Mr. Moore.

Committee of Commerce and Manufactures.—Mr. Samuel Smith, Mr. Eustis, Mr. Dana, Mr. Mitchill, Mr. Jones, Mr. Newton, and Mr. Lowndes.

Resolved, That a standing Committee of Ways and Means be appointed, whose duty it shall be to take into consideration all such reports of the Treasury Department, and all such propositions, relative to the revenue, as may be referred to them by the House; to inquire into the state of the public debt, of the revenue, and of the expenditures; and to report, from time to time, their opinion thereon.

Ordered, That Mr. Randolph, Mr. Griswold, Mr. Israel Smith, Mr. Bayard, Mr. Smilie, Mr. Read, Mr. Nicholson, Mr. Van Rensselaer, and Mr. Dickson, be appointed a committee, pursuant to the said resolution.

Wednesday, December 9.

Another member, to wit, John Campbell, from Maryland, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

Thursday, December 10.

Mr. Elmendorph, from the committee to whom was referred, on the eighth instant, a letter from Thomas Claxton, the Doorkeeper of this House, relative to certain expenditures, and further assistance necessary to be allowed for enabling him to execute the duties of his station, made a report; which was read and considered: Whereupon,

Resolved, That Thomas Claxton be, and is hereby, authorized to employ, under his immediate direction, one additional assistant, two servants, and two horses, for the purpose of performing such services and duties as are usually required by the House of Representatives, during the present session, and for four days thereafter; and the sum of five dollars and seventy-five cents per day be allowed to him for that purpose; and that he be paid therefor out of the fund appropriated for the contingent expenses of the House.

A message from the Senate informed the House that the Senate have proceeded to the appointment of a Chaplain to Congress, on their part, and the Rev. Mr. Gantt has been duly elected.

Friday, December 11.

Several other members, to wit: from New Hampshire, Joseph Peirce; from Massachusetts, Peleg Wadsworth; from Virginia, Thomas Claiborne and John Clopton; and, from North Carolina, William H. Hill, appeared, produced their credentials, were qualified, and took their seats in the House.

Monday, December 14.

Another member, to wit, Lewis R. Morris, from the State of Vermont, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

Tuesday, December 15.

Barbary Powers.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the State of the Union, the following resolution being under consideration:

"Resolved, That it is expedient that the President be authorized by law, further and more effectually to protect the commerce of the United States against the Barbary Powers."

Mr. Nicholson said, that when this resolution was yesterday laid on the table, he had moved, for reasons that he had assigned, to strike out the words "further and more." He was, on reflection, more and more persuaded of the accuracy of his objections to the unqualified terms of the original motion. If we adopt it, we pledge ourselves to increase the naval force at present at the disposition of the President. But if his modification were agreed to, every gentleman would remain at liberty to put his own construction on the words "effectual force." Uninformed as we were as to the necessity of increasing the force, it would be highly improper to commit ourselves by any precipitate decision. He, therefore, moved to strike out the words "further and more."

Mr. Giles opposed the striking out the words, which, in his opinion, did not relate to the quantum of force placed under Executive disposition, but to the measures proposed to be taken by the Executive. He should vote for the motion unamended, though he had been, and still was, as averse as any gentleman in that House to an improper augmentation of the Army or Navy. With respect to the Navy, he was friendly to it as it now stood, or to an augmentation of it to meet any particular emergency.

Mr. S. Smith said that as he understood the resolution, it went not to pledge any man to augment the Navy, but to authorize the President, with the present force, to take measures for the defence of our trade. We were at war with Tripoli. Against that power, therefore, the President felt himself at liberty to act efficiently. But gentlemen should advert to our situation with regard to Algiers and Tunis. Those powers may become hostile. They may become so in the recess of Congress. It may be necessary without delay to protect our trade against them. Will you then confine the President, in relation to these powers, to a Peace Establishment? Certainly, when these circumstances were duly weighed, no gentleman will refuse the power which this resolution is intended to confer.

Mr. Smilie was in favor of the amendment for one reason. He was ready at all times to grant commerce every necessary protection. But by adopting this resolution, we pledge ourselves, without inquiring into the necessity, to extend further protection. No doubt further protection will be required. But he thought it premature to make any pledge until all the documents connected with the subject were before the House.

Mr. Mitchill suggested the propriety of amending the original resolution by inserting after the word "law," "if necessary." This would render the resolution conditional. To the resolution he was a friend. For when the aspect and extent of the United States were considered, it must be evident to every man that we were a commercial people. The bulk and extensiveness of our produce required vessels to carry it to foreign countries. The carriage required protection. The Government must of course give protection. With respect to the Mediterranean expedition, no plan under the Government had been better devised; and he had no hesitation to say, that if the Mediterranean trade required further protection, he would be for making further appropriations of the public moneys.

Mr. Nicholson said he could not agree to the suggestion of the gentleman from New York, as by adopting it we should do nothing. How does the matter now stand? Congress has put into the hands of the President six frigates, which he had used for the public service in the Mediterranean. This was not a fit time to express his opinion on the propriety of the measures of the Executive. But when a fit occasion did offer, he would have no hesitation to say the President had done right.

To return to the point—The President had now six frigates. If we agree to the resolution, do we not pledge ourselves to increase this force?

One squadron had been sent to the Mediterranean; another was in operation to go there, he understood. This was all right. But there followed no necessity from these circumstances to pledge ourselves to increase the force.

We were not even acquainted with the sentiments of the President on this point. His communications did not inform us that he desired a larger force. If he did desire it, he would say so. He had, on the contrary, recommended a reduction of the Army and Navy; and to desire an augmentation of the latter, would be, in the same breath, to say one thing and mean another.

Mr. Eustis.—The President, in his communications, has informed us that he has hitherto acted on the defensive. The simple question now is, whether he shall be empowered to take offensive steps. This has no relation, therefore, to an increase of the force; nor shall we, by adopting it, pledge ourselves to such effect.

Mr. Giles was happy that the discussion was one more of words than of principles. He perfectly coincided with the gentleman from Maryland, who had moved the amendment, in his general sentiments. It would be wrong in this House prematurely to pledge itself for an increase of naval force. But the words of the resolution do not relate to the quantum of force, but entirely to the measures to be taken with any force. When the President is authorized further and more effectually to protect our trade, it was not said that we will give him four or six additional frigates; but merely that he is to have means, more or less, which shall be adequate to make offensive operations against those who shall make offensive operations against us.

It was well understood that he was for keeping the Navy within proper bounds; but if ever there was a case where it was required, this was the case, and he acknowledged that he was for empowering the President to authorize not merely a dismantlement of a vessel, but her capture.

The question was then taken on Mr. Nicholson's amendment and lost.

When the original motion of Mr. Smith was carried.

Ordered, That a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant to the said resolution; and that Mr. Eustis, Mr. Samuel Smith, Mr. Dana, Mr. Mitchill, and Mr. Jones, do prepare and bring in the same.

Wednesday, December 16.

Another member, to wit, Benjamin Huger, from South Carolina, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

Ratio of Representation.

The House, according to the order of the day, proceeded to consider the first resolution reported yesterday from the Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union, in the words following, to wit:

"Resolved, That the apportionment of Representatives amongst the several States, according to the second enumeration of the people, ought to be in a ratio of one Representative for every thirty-three thousand persons in each State."

Mr. Griswold remarked, that the effect of adopting this resolution would be an increase of members in that House; that the number would amount to nearly one hundred and fifty. He was of opinion that the present House was sufficiently numerous for every correct purpose, as well of legislation, as for obtaining all desirable information from the people. Should an augmentation be made, the consequences would be an increase of expense, and business would inevitably be protracted. He moved, therefore, to strike out the words "thirty-three," meaning, if they were stricken out, to propose the substitution of a larger number.

On this motion a desultory debate ensued, in which Messrs. Griswold, S. Smith, Nicholson, Giles, Bayard, Alston, Elmer, Eustis, Sprigg, and other gentlemen, took part.

Mr. Griswold stood alone in advocating an apportionment of one member to every 40,000 persons.

Messrs. Giles and Bayard were for one member for every 30,000.

Messrs. S. Smith, Nicholson, and Eustis, were for one member for 33,000.

Mr. Alston was in favor of one representative for every 31,000.

The preferences avowed by the several speakers, appeared to arise from the application of that divisor to the State from which each member came, which left the least fraction.

Some gentlemen, however, declared, and particularly Mr. Giles, that he had made no calculation, and that his preference of the smallest ratio proposed was the preference of principle.

Those in favor of a small ratio argued that, though the expense attending the compensation of the members might be somewhat increased, yet that it would be trifling compared with the great advantages that would result from a larger representation; that such a representation would be productive of true economy, as it would oppose all extravagant expenditure of money; that the weight of expense incurred by the Government, did not arise from the expense of the civil list, which formed but a speck in the mass of expenditure; that it was important to this Government to adopt those measures which would ensure the respect and the confidence of the people; that this end would be best attained by each Representative being familiarly acquainted with the interests of his constituents; and that this could only be the case when the number of his constituents were limited within certain bounds. It was true that it had been said that a body of more than one hundred, even though it be composed of philosophers, was a mob; but it was replied that the long experience of this country had proved the reverse, for that many of the State Legislatures consisted of more members.

These ideas were but feebly opposed. The diversity of opinion expressed chiefly arose from a division of the House on the ratios of thirty thousand and thirty-three thousand. The former was advocated principally from a regard to Delaware and Rhode Island, which, by its adoption, would have each two Representatives instead of one, if a higher ratio were preferred.

During the discussion, it was moved to strike out the word "three;" leaving thirty thousand as the ratio. This motion was lost—yeas 43, nays 46.

Mr. Bayard then moved to strike out "thirty-three," leaving the resolution blank, in order that it might be filled up with such number as should be agreeable to the House.

This motion was opposed chiefly by Mr. Nicholson and Mr. Eustis, who were of opinion that the progressive increase of the members would be sufficiently large on the ratio of thirty-three thousand persons to a member. They were also further in favor of this number as it left the fewest fractions. The only two States much injured by it would be Delaware and North Carolina; whereas, if the ratio was increased to thirty-five thousand, New Jersey would have a fraction of 31,000; Delaware of 26,000; Maryland of 30,000; Georgia of 23,000; and Kentucky of 29,000.

On the question being taken for striking out "thirty-three," there rose only thirty-one members. It was therefore declared to be lost.

The question was then taken on the original motion, and carried without a division, and a committee of three members appointed to bring in a bill conformably thereto.

Thursday, December 17.

Another member, to wit, Daniel Heister, from Maryland, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.

Friday, December 18.

Public Printing.

Mr. Randolph, chairman of the committee appointed to see what alterations were necessary to expedite the printing business of the House, reported that the committee thought it expedient to request the Heads of the Departments to attend and inspect the printing of all such documents, reports, and statements, as are directed by law to be annually laid before the House; and that it was necessary that a printer to the House be appointed, who shall be responsible for the faithful and prompt execution of all business confided to him by order of the House.

Mr. Griswold wished the report altered to a resolution; to the first part of it he should agree, but doubted whether the latter part would be concurred in. He did not think it sufficient or expedient to appoint but one; the business would require more, particularly at the close of the session. He could see no reason for altering the mode in which the printing business was now and had ever been done; it now lies with the Clerk, who is empowered to employ as many persons as he pleases or deems expedient. If such printer should be appointed, he will become an officer of the House; he will not be responsible to the Speaker. We have officers enough already; it is needless to multiply.

Mr. Randolph said, the committee had considered these objections; but, he believed, sufficient reasons might be offered to convince the House of the expediency of this measure. If one be appointed, he will know his duty and be prepared; he will employ as many hands as he wishes. Had there been one appointed by the House last session, he would have been on the spot now, fully prepared promptly to execute the orders of the House; nor should we have such delay as that by which we are now unfortunately troubled.

Mr. Nicholson.—We have but few printers in this vicinity, nor is it probable their number will be soon increased. The printing for the House is said to be worth $4,000 per annum; if one be appointed for that purpose, he will have every thing in readiness, and be responsible for his faithful duty.

Mr. S. Smith thought a printer thus appointed might perform a considerable part of his duty previous to each session; to many documents he might attend. Mr. S. wished such printer appointed as a permanent officer.

Mr. Lowndes.—If he thought such officer necessary he should not oppose the measure, but at present he did not think such appointment necessary. He conceived the Clerk to be responsible to the House; that it was his duty to attend to the printing; that he could employ whom and as many as he pleased. Whence, then, the necessity of such appointment? Besides, such printer will become an officer of this House, must have a salary, and will be called the printer of the House: and, if printer of a paper, whatever sentiments might be advanced in such paper would perhaps be considered as the sentiments of the House.

Mr. Eustis considered it altogether unnecessary, disadvantageous, and troublesome.

The first was carried: that relating to the appointment of a printer not carried; about twenty only rising in favor of it.

Apportionment Bill.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for the apportionment of Representatives among the several States, according to the second enumeration.

Mr. Macon (Speaker) moved to strike out "thirty-three," the ratio fixed by the bill, for the purpose of inserting "thirty."

Mr. M. observed that it did not appear, from the different ideas expressed by different gentlemen, that any material inconvenience would result from the increased number of members that would be created by the ratio of thirty thousand being adopted. Whereas on the ground of principle a great benefit would flow from it. In his opinion, to secure the confidence of the people in the Government, it was essential to lessen the districts as much as possible, that the elector might know the elected. At present, particularly in North Carolina, they were so large that a voter depended more upon the opinions of others than upon his own information. The ratio of thirty thousand would not introduce into the House more than one hundred and sixty members, which number did not equal that of the members in several of the State Legislatures, of which no complaints had been made, and from which no inconvenience had arisen. He felt particularly for Delaware, which would be severely affected by the ratio in the bill.

Mr. Giles hoped the motion would obtain. As far as respected the State of Virginia, he felt little or no anxiety. But he, on general principles, preferred the smallest ratio. It was an essential principle of a Republican Government that the people voting should know whom they vote for; that the elector should be well acquainted with the elected. To ensure this effect the districts should be small. He was aware of the impossibility of reaching this point precisely: but it was our duty to approach it as nearly as possible. Though, in relation to the situation of Delaware, he did not subscribe fully to the ideas of some gentlemen, as the case was an extreme one, and he knew the impropriety of relying upon such cases, as the reasoning from an extreme generally led to an extreme, yet he thought the relative circumstances of Delaware and Virginia, as stated, to be correct; for it was a fact that Virginia, entitled to twenty-two Representatives, was not so much affected by any given fraction, as Delaware, entitled to but one Representative.

But the reply to the inequality of her representation here is, that she has two Representatives in the Senate; and it is inferred that she will hence derive a larger weight in the Union. Such was the theory of the thing. But what was the result of experience? Mr. G. said, he had once supposed that the small States would have an undue advantage over the large States. His opinion had since altered. All the small States were surrounded and compressed by large States, and derived their political sympathies from them. It was true, the small States had each two votes in the Senate. Yet, what superior advantage have they in the Government generally? He was, therefore, clearly of opinion that the claims of the small States to the largest representation that could be constitutionally given them, ought not to be affected by their representation in the Senate. The fact was that this House was the basis of confidence in the Government. We had heard much about an alarm, about disorganization, and the disposition of large States to swallow up the rights of all the other States. He would ask, whether the adoption of a large ratio would lessen this clamor, promote the general confidence, and increase the stability of the Government?

Mr. Jones hoped the amendment would prevail. There was not a doubt but that the small States would be materially affected by the ratio in the bill. It was true, that, according to the theory of our Government, the members of that House did not represent the States. But, what was the fact? In truth, our representation was that of absolute locality. Can I, said Mr. J., represent as effectually Massachusetts, or Vermont, as Pennsylvania?

Mr. Van Ness declared himself to be uninfluenced by local considerations, or particular inconveniences. If we attempted to avoid them by the adoption of any ratio, we should be mistaken. The inequality of States could not be remedied. If a remedy was sought, it must be found in the Senate. The large States had not that exclusive weight which had been stated. If the number of the large States in this House should overbear the smaller States, they would find their protection in the Senate. The fractional loss, so much dwelt on, was not a loss to the State, it was only a loss to that part of the State which was unrepresented, and the loss would be the same to a larger State, if its unrepresented fraction was equally great.

Mr. V. N. said, it had always been his desire to consult the wishes of the people and to conform to them. He considered those wishes as solemnly expressed in the constitution, which had decided that the ratio should not be less than thirty thousand, and in the law passed immediately after the adoption of the constitution, fixing the ratio at thirty-three thousand.

As to the experience of the State, so often appealed to, he would state that of his own. The constitution of New York originally fixed the representation in one branch at three hundred, and in the other at one hundred and fifty. After suffering the inconveniences of so large a legislative body, a convention had been called, which reduced the one branch to one hundred and fifty, and the other to thirty-two members.

It was the opinion of some gentlemen that the essential principle of our Government was the equal representation of the States in the Senate. This was a mistaken opinion. The federalism of the Government might have been as well preserved by an unequal representation in the Senate. The feature was not the offspring of principle, but of concession. If we looked to antiquity, we would observe the smaller States of a Confederation always inferior to the larger; and he recollected one case of a Confederation, in which one State was entitled to three, another to two, and the third to one representative.

Mr. Smilie heartily concurred in opinion with the gentleman from New York, that we ought not to respect local feelings, but that we ought to go upon general grounds. Possessing these principles, we still know how difficult it is to do complete justice. For himself he would be satisfied with the ratio of thirty-three, if he could not obtain that of thirty thousand. He was in favor of a large representation, because he relied on that for safety and economy. For, when he considered the great powers of the other branches of the Government, (powers, in the opinion of some men, too great,) he thought it was their duty to impart to that House all the constitutional power that could be conferred. This would enable the House to resist all encroachments attempted to be made upon it.

Mr. Bacon said that, for himself, he was satisfied with the present ratio, as it stood in the bill. This was the ratio which had been adopted when our numbers were much less than they now are; that it did not appear but that it had given general satisfaction; and that no other inconveniences had accrued than such as might be expected to follow from the adoption of any other ratio whatever. It would seem to be rather unnatural, and the reverse of what was contemplated by those who enacted the constitution, as our numbers increase, to lessen the ratio of representation. He was, therefore, against striking out the number thirty-three, with a view to insert a lower number.

A divisor of thirty-three thousand would now give a House consisting of at least one hundred and forty members, which, even on the present ratio, must soon become not only too expensive, but unwieldy. It had been repeatedly urged that the present ratio leaves a very large fraction to the State of Delaware. This, it was admitted, was matter of regret; but that, let what ratio might be adopted, such fractional parts must be expected to fall somewhere; that such fractions would be likely to vary, from time to time, and shift from State to State, as the population may increase and vary in the several States. And Mr. B. did not conceive that the particular case of Delaware, hard as it might seem, furnished a sufficient reason for altering an entire system.

As to what had been urged of the disadvantage to which Electors were subjected in large districts, of not knowing the characters of their Representatives and candidates, Mr. B. observed that this was a disadvantage which was lessening with rapidity from year to year, and from one election to another; that to whatever inconvenience electors may heretofore have been subjected by the want of a knowledge of their candidate, from this inconvenience they are already in a great measure relieved; and it must, in a very short time, entirely cease to exist. If any inconvenience of this kind still remains, by an election or two more, it would be entirely removed. It had been urged that Delaware had but one Representative, and every State ought to have two. But, why two, Mr. B. queried, rather than three? It is true, that two are better than one; and three are better than either one or two; for, as we have long since been told, "a three-fold cord is not easily broken."

Mr. B. concluded by saying that, as thirty-three thousand was the ratio which had been adopted when our population was much less than it now is; and as it has been practised upon without any inconvenience or general dissatisfaction, he was unwilling to risk the uncertain consequences of an innovation at this particular time.

Mr. T. Morris was of opinion that the arguments drawn from the representation in the Senate had nothing to do with this question. The House had a constitutional duty to perform, that was highly interesting. The only question is, How it shall be performed? The people ought to be fully represented; that is, the number of their representatives should be increased until that number became inconvenient for the transaction of business. He had never been a friend to an enormous Legislature; such as that in France, a mob convention. He thought the idea incorrect that this House should acquire a weight that might cause it to bear down the other branch of the Legislature. He hoped, if any such attempt should be made, that body would have sufficient spirit to resist it; and he trusted there would always be firmness enough here to resist any encroachment attempted.

As to the present ratio guiding, he did not think that the House should be governed by any uniform rule. They ought, on the contrary, to be governed by the existing circumstances. Not believing that any inconvenience would arise from the augmented representation on the ratio of thirty thousand, he would be in favor of it from the reasons he had assigned.

Mr. Dennis did not rise to say any thing new on the subject; but merely, as he had altered his mind since the business was before the House, to assign some of the reasons which had influenced him. He was now in favor of the ratio of thirty thousand. His first impressions were against it from an apprehension that the increased numbers of the House would increase expense, and produce disorder. But he acknowledged himself convinced by the arguments which had fallen from the gentleman from Virginia, which he thought counterbalanced his previous apprehension. Mr. D. thought it all-important to preserve an equilibrium between the different departments of the Government, and he was convinced that this would be best effected by making the representation in this House as large as the constitution permitted, and convenience justified. If we expected to retain the confidence of the people, it was necessary to increase the Representative branch; for it would be in vain to look for that confidence necessary to give it a proper portion of energy, unless there existed a sympathy between the elector and the elected.

Mr. Randolph hoped the amendment would not obtain. The difference between the effects of the two ratios was not very important; but it was highly important that a doctrine so heretical and improper as that which had been avowed, should be exploded on its first annunciation. He meant that doctrine which considered this House as the Representatives of the people. When the constitution was formed, two great difficulties presented themselves. The large States refused to confer on the Government greater powers than those it enjoyed, which deeply affected their wealth and their numbers, unless, according to the ratio of their numbers, they should participate in the administration of it; while the smaller States withheld their concurrence, unless their sovereignties were guarantied and protected. These two difficulties were surmounted by the plan of the present constitution; according to which the members of this House were the Representatives, not of the people, but of the States in proportion to their numbers. This was the theory of the Government for which he must contend.

Mr. R. believed that the strongest objection urged against the adoption of the constitution, was, that it tended to a consolidation of the States. But when he looked into it with a Federal eye, (and with no other eye could he ever look at it,) he saw the State sovereignties in all its parts acknowledged and protected. Of this, the very bill was itself a proof. For the apportionment was not among the people, but among the States, according to the numbers of each. Believing that this House is the representative of States, it was his opinion that so long as the relative weight of States could be preserved, it was immaterial that each State should be represented by a large number of members.

It was with extreme regret, and some diffidence, Mr. R. said, that he differed from his colleague on this subject. His colleague wished to increase the House to such an extent as to make it the depository of the whole confidence of the people. Mr. R. wished it to possess that confidence so far as related to Federal objects, but no further. Increase it, according to the theory of gentlemen, make it in point of numbers, a British Parliament, or a French convention, and you will proportionably diminish the confidence of the people in the State governments. They will become feeble barriers against the powers of the General Government; and the people will inquire for what purpose they elect their State Legislatures. Mr. R. believed it to be of infinite importance that the poises of the Government should be preserved; that it should confine itself to Federal objects. His object, therefore, was to preserve on that floor the proportionate weight between the several States which the constitution had fixed.

Had any objection been made to the old Congress under the Confederation, that was federally organized, for the want of talents or integrity? No. The only objection was, that they wanted power. Had the public affairs been conducted with less ability than they are at present? He had neither heard, nor did he believe that they had.

Mr. R. concluded, by making some remarks on the score of convenience, similar to those already stated.

Mr. Mitchill, in a speech of some length, supported the ratio of thirty thousand.

Mr. S. Smith felt indifferent whether the ratio of thirty-three, or that of thirty thousand, were adopted; but felt anxious that justice should be done to the State of Maryland. He understood that radical errors existed in the numbers given to that State; that in Harford County there were returned only three thousand slaves, whereas there ought to have been returned eighteen thousand; and that in Cecil there had been returned nine thousand, instead of fifteen thousand. He hoped, in order to have these errors corrected, the committee would rise, that the original returns in the office of State might be examined.

This motion gave rise to a conversation of some length, in which on one side the impropriety and injustice of making an apportionment under the existing errors, and without the return from Tennessee, were argued; and, on the other side, the great inconvenience of delay, and the inability of the House to obtain a correction of errors, which, if attempted in one instance, might be attempted in many.

Mr. Van Ness informed the committee that the return from Tennessee was received at the office of State, and that it made the population of that State amount to ninety-two thousand free inhabitants, and thirteen thousand slaves.

It was ultimately agreed that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again; which was granted.

Monday, December 21.

Georgia Limits, and Delegate from Mississippi.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the report of the Committee of Elections, to whom were referred the credentials of Narsworthy Hunter, who has appeared as a Delegate from the Territory of the United States known by the name of the Mississippi Territory.

Mr. Milledge spoke forcibly, and with considerable eloquence against agreeing to the report of the committee; he said it was not a matter of private but of general concern—that Georgia had jurisdiction over that territory; to prove this, he called for the reading of the memorial of Georgia to the Legislature of the Union.

[The memorial was extremely long, and was read but in part.]

Mr. M. insisted on the right of Georgia to the soil; he would assert to that body and to the world that she had never given up that right; and that therefore the laws that had been passed by Congress for the government of that territory were void, and the gentleman elected as a delegate to Congress by the Legislature of that territory had no right to a seat in the House. Gentlemen might say what they please of the expediency of Congress making laws for the government of that territory, yet that expediency must yield to justice and to just claims; depriving Georgia of her command over that soil and over the people of that soil, was a glaring violation of right. Commissioners had been appointed to settle the dispute between the United States and Georgia; those commissioners are here, and probably it will not be long before those claims are adjusted; he hoped and trusted no farther proceedings would take place till the dispute was completely settled.

Mr. Bayard.—The gentleman from Georgia appeared to mistake the object of the report of the select committee; that committee was appointed to examine the credentials of Mr. Hunter, and to see whether the Legislature of the Mississippi territory had a right, by the law of Congress regulating that government, to send a delegate, to exercise here the right of debating, but not of voting; it was not to admit into the Union a new State, or to erect a new State within the bounds of another. The law of Congress, establishing the government of that territory, declares that when in that territory there shall be such a number of inhabitants, they shall have a House of Representatives and a Legislature; and that when their inhabitants shall have increased to such a number, the Legislature may appoint a delegate to Congress, with the right of debating, but not of voting. It is not now a question whether a new State shall be erected, but whether this member be duly chosen. Nor are the interests of Georgia at all affected: the fifth section of the law establishing this Government expressly declares that nothing in the law for establishing a temporary government there, shall in any manner affect any claims of the State of Georgia to that soil. Commissioners are appointed on the part of the United States and Georgia to settle the dispute between the two Governments; but till those disputes shall be settled, shall the inhabitants of that territory be without a government? No, sir, it is not a matter of discretion with us; we are bound by a positive law of Congress. If the gentleman was urgent against Mr. Hunter's taking his seat, the only way to effect it is, by repealing the law of Congress establishing the Government of the Mississippi Territory.

Mr. Davis.—The House have no business to meddle, in this case, with the claims of the United States, or of Georgia, to that territory; we have only to examine the credentials of the member, and to see whether the Legislature, in conformity to the act of Congress, were authorized, or not, to send a delegate. If that act of Congress be unconstitutional, it must be repealed by the Senate and House; yet, as it now is, we are bound to but one decision on this subject.

Mr. Randolph.—He thought gentlemen did not treat the member from Georgia with due candor and respect. It should be remembered that Georgia had ever protested against the laws relative to the Mississippi Territory. It was the duty of that gentleman, as a member from the State of Georgia, to dissent; constructions might be put on silence. The United States had arrogated the power of governing that territory, at the same time saying that such assumption of power should not affect any claims of Georgia; but did not this very assumption of a right to govern, prejudge claims? We are told the commissioners are on the eve of settling the dispute; let us wait till this be accomplished. Mr. R. motioned that the committee rise.

Mr. Claiborne.—He thought it right in the gentleman from Georgia to dissent; it was to be expected; he did not rise to censure him. He did not conceive that any gentleman in the House wished, in this matter, to do any thing that would prejudice the interest or claims of Georgia. The assumption of a power to give laws to the Mississippi Territory arose from the necessity of the thing, and from benevolence to the inhabitants; he would not suffer an infraction of the constitution for the world; no, not to save a world. [The Chairman called him to order: the question was now on the committee's rising.] Mr. C. said he did not know but he might be out of order, but if he was, he believed others had been in the same situation. He wished to express his opinions on the subject in common with others. It should be considered that the delegate from the Mississippi territory would have no right to vote, but only to debate; he would be only a sting, but without poison. We ought, moreover, to oblige our brethren of that Southern hemisphere; we ought to hear their statements, attend to their wants, &c.

Mr. Dana.—He was for the committee's rising. It had been usual to suffer the reports of the Committee of Elections to lie on the table, and if no protest or complaint were entered, nothing further was done with them, and the members kept their seats. In the case of the North-western and Indiana Territories, they were obliged to inquire, if it was the first time, whether there was a right to send a delegate; such is the situation now of the member from the Mississippi Territory; the records show their right to send, the report states that this delegate is duly chosen. Let the report lie on the table, and the member keep his seat.

Mr. Griswold.—He was not in favor of the committee's rising. It was extremely unpleasant to the delegate from the Mississippi Territory to remain in this situation; he himself claimed a seat in that House, not as a matter of favor but of right; and this House had not the power of depriving him of this right, without repealing the act of Congress establishing a government over that Territory. Some gentlemen have said that the rights of Georgia will be affected by the admittance of this member to a seat; such certainly could not be the case; if the claims of Georgia are at all affected, it is done already by act of Congress; yet, for his part, he did not consider the claims of Georgia as affected or injured. Nor ought we to wait the decision of the commissioners: that decision may take place in a month, and perhaps will not these six months.

Mr. Macon.—There ought to be some petition or statement of facts presented by the member from Georgia, or some other person, to justify a discussion at this time, or to prevent the delegate from taking his seat. He wished his right and his credentials treated as those of any other member. He agreed with the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. Dana,) that it were better for the committee to rise, without leave to sit again; the member would then be entitled to his seat and his pay, till it should be shown that he has no claim to them.

Mr. Bayard.—He did not agree with the Speaker; the face of the report of the select committee gives sufficient cause for a decision of the Committee of the Whole. The gentleman from Georgia opposes the decision of the select committee; and it is due to the member from Georgia, and to the delegate, to have the opinion of the House—to have a prompt decision. The mere question is, whether he has been duly elected; not whether the Legislature of the Mississippi Territory had a right to elect him. Gentlemen have said we are prejudicing the claims of Georgia, that their rights are implicated in this step; they have said that the act of Congress establishing a government was an assumption of power; not so: by the Spanish treaty that territory was ceded to the United States; the inhabitants were without a government; they petitioned Congress for some form of government. What was to be done? The interposition of Congress arose ex necessitate rei. It was no assumption of power or assertion of claims. It was a necessary establishment of a temporary government, to continue while there was necessity. He was for an immediate decision.

Messrs. Randolph, Davis, Bayard, S. Smith, Macon, and Griswold, continued the debate.

The report of the select committee was agreed to. Mr. Milledge wished the yeas and nays, even if he stood alone. They were taken, and stood, yeas 77, nays 8.

Tuesday, December 22.

Another member, to wit, John Rutledge, from South Carolina, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

Tuesday, December 29.

Library of Congress.

Mr. Randolph reported a "bill concerning the library for the use of both Houses of Congress;" which, after being twice read, was committed to a Committee of the whole House: Mr. Rutledge in the chair.

The bill provided that the members of both Houses, the President and Vice President of the United States, and the Judges of the Supreme Court, should have liberty to take any book from the library to read.

Mr. Sprigg moved, to add the Judges of the District of Columbia. He was supported in argument by Mr. Dennis, upon the ground of the importance of the causes which this especial district would present, and the great expense and extreme scarcity of some most valuable and necessary law books.

Mr. Bayard objected to the motion, because he could discover no reason for distinguishing the judges of the district from others; but Judges of the Supreme Court being far from their libraries, required such references. He hoped the Congressional Library would never be subjected to the abuse which books used in courts of justice were too liable to.

The motion was not agreed to.

Some observations were made as to the time which the library was to remain open.

Mr. Griswold moved to confine it to the time of the session of Congress.

It was carried, with an exception moved by Mr. Southard, in favor of the Judges of the Supreme Court, whose sessions do not accord with those of Congress.

A blank was left as to the sum to be appropriated, in addition to the remaining part of the five thousand dollars heretofore appropriated, for the purchase of books.

On the Chairman's asking the sum with which to fill the blank, Mr. Randolph moved to strike out the sections, observing that, of that sum, not more than $2,200 had been used, and $2,800 remained unexpended. He entertained no doubt but Congress would aid the institution by every timely grant.

Wednesday, December 30.

Internal Taxes.

Mr. Davis moved the appointment of a committee to inquire into the expediency of repealing the acts imposing duties on stills and distilled spirits, on refined sugars, on sales at auction, and on pleasure carriages.

Mr. Davis said his object, in making this motion, was, that the House should accomplish that directly, which had been this session attempted in so circuitous a way as to embarrass and delay its proceedings. He saw no reason for going into a Committee of the Whole, in order to arrive at decisions that might better be made directly by the House itself.

On this motion a debate of considerable length ensued, in which, on the one side, the reference to a select committee, and on the other a reference to a Committee of the whole House was advocated. No decision was had, and of course the motion of Mr. D. was ordered to lie on the table.

Army Reduction.

Mr. Bayard, during the course of the debate—in allusion to the adoption yesterday of the resolution of Mr. Randolph for reducing the Military Establishment, which he thought premature, not considering the House as sufficiently acquainted with the details of the subject, to act upon it—said, that if gentlemen were for reducing the Army in whatever degree, or for abandoning it altogether, he should go with them. He would, on such occasion, be governed by the same principles which had hitherto guided him. He had heretofore been disposed to repose a liberal confidence in the Executive of the United States; and when an increase of our military force had been recommended by the President, he had invariably been for it; much more would he be disposed, when a reduction was recommended from the same quarter, to sanction it by his vote. With the Executive rested the responsibility of the exterior defence of the nation; and if the Executive was of opinion that the nation was secure with a force of three, two, or one thousand, or without even a single man, he would concur with him in giving effect to such a conviction.

Mr. Randolph was called up by these remarks. He had little thought that his motion, agreed to yesterday sub silentio, and without the least hesitation, would have been made the topic of such animated animadversion as he had heard to-day. He would tell the gentleman from Delaware, that his motion had neither been immature in substance, nor premature as to time. It would be recollected, that previous to its adoption, the Secretary of War had been called upon to furnish information to the House. He had furnished information, to his mind completely satisfactory. He had stated the establishment to be five thousand men; and his opinion that all the garrisons required only three thousand men. Could it, then, with any reason be called premature to act upon such information? If the gentleman from Delaware, or other gentlemen thought so, why not combat a decision at the time? Did they imagine that, without the expression of a murmur by them, the mover would himself rise and oppose his own motion?

As to the delay which had been noticed, as having taken place in the transaction of business, it was not to be ascribed to any particular mode of procedure; but to the unusual languor of the season; to the absence of several members of great weight; to the augmentation of new members not yet fully acquainted with the forms of business, and to the unusual mass of information presented to the House, which enlarged the field of action, and to the delays of printing arising from the unusual quantity of matter submitted.

Internal Taxes.

Mr. Bayard moved that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, for the purpose of enabling him to offer a resolution to the following effect:

"Resolved, That the Committee of Ways and Means be instructed to inquire into the expediency of repealing the laws laying duties on stills and distilled spirits, on refined sugar, on sales at auction, on pleasurable carriages, on stamps, and on postage of letters."

Mr. Bayard made this motion for the purpose of placing the important subject contemplated by it in a train for decision. He thought it full time to commence our proceedings upon it; and in his opinion, it was fit that the consideration of the subject, generally, should go before the Committee of Ways and Means. The subject was so important as to strike at the vital principles of our revenue. The repeal of the internal taxes involved a reduction of six hundred thousand dollars in our receipts. The propriety of such a reduction did not constitute a distinct subject for consideration, but depended upon the deductions made on a comprehensive view of our finances, which could only be taken by the Committee of Ways and Means, to whom was committed generally whatever regarded revenue.

If the minds of gentlemen, said Mr. B., were made up to abolish all the internal taxes, it must be to them perfectly immaterial to what committee a reference was made. He knew the flattering prospects held out by the President, and he hoped they would all be verified. But his own mind was not made up, nor did he know that the minds of other gentlemen were made up on the propriety of dispensing with these taxes. He was led to this inference by observing no official notice to such effect in the communications made by the Secretary of the Treasury. On the contrary, the Secretary had so made his calculations, predicated as they were upon the continuance of these taxes, that his calculations would be greatly deranged by dispensing with them. Mr. B. knew not that we were prepared to leap this precipice. If the public burdens could be reduced, he would be delighted with the act of reduction. Yet still, if the sum of six hundred thousand dollars, derived from these taxes, could be dispensed with, doubts might be entertained whether the internal taxes were those which should be first either reduced or abolished. He held it to be a correct principle, that taxation should be equal, and that no one class of citizens should be burdened to the exemption of all other classes. From a slight consideration of the subject, he had found no other way of enabling our brethren to the westward to participate in the public burdens than by affording them an opportunity of paying their portion of internal revenue. It might appear, on investigation, that more substantial relief would be afforded to the various descriptions of our citizens, by continuing the internal taxes, and reducing those on imports; and if it should be thought proper to diminish the burden imposed on our western citizens, he would ask whether that effect would not be more substantially accomplished by reducing the tax upon salt? It would be recollected that great opposition had been made to the imposition of this tax, which had been denominated oppressive, as it fell upon an article of necessity.

Attention ought, also, to be paid to the liability of several articles to be smuggled, the only mode of preventing which was well known to be a reduction of the duties.

Mr. B. stated these circumstances, not as evidences of having matured his own ideas; but to show the necessity of referring the subject to a committee, whose special duty it was to take a general view of the resources and expenses of the nation, and who, therefore, in the present stage of the session, were alone in a situation to make the requisite inquiry.

Mr. Eustis said that the reasons offered by the gentleman from Delaware were with him conclusive that this was not the proper time for considering the subject. Until we know the reductions in the expenditures of the Government that are to be made, it is impossible that we can say how far it will be expedient to reduce or abolish our taxes. We had not determined to what extent the Army or the Navy should be reduced, nor had we come to any ultimate decision on any reduction whatever. For these reasons he must oppose a decision at this time upon the subject, whether that decision was in this or any other shape.

Mr. Bacon concurred with Mr. Eustis in considering any decision as at present premature.

Mr. Rutledge viewed the subject as of great importance. He could not figure to his imagination one likely to occur this session of equal importance. The President contemplated a repeal of all the internal revenues, and the imposition of all taxes upon imported articles. The Secretary of the Treasury appears, by implication, to be of a different opinion, and contemplates a continuance of these duties. What is the object of the gentleman from Delaware? Why, delay; time for consideration, by reference of the subject to a committee most competent to inquire. As to the public burdens, every member on the floor had a common feeling. We do not wish to lay unnecessary taxes. But when taxes are laid, when they are uncomplained of, it was indeed deeply interesting without consideration to decide on their abolition. Mr. R. said, for himself, he should be embarrassed by being forced into an immediate decision. We want information before we are called upon to decide. The motion seeks that information. It sends the business to the Committee of Ways and Means, to whom it belongs of right. It is their duty to consider it, for whatever relates to revenue must go to them. Gentlemen cannot say that they are surprised. By the resolution, they are not called upon to decide upon the subject; they are only called upon to place it in a train for decision.

Mr. Macon hoped the business would be taken up, and the sooner it was done, the better. It was certainly of great importance, and the earlier the House proceeded to consider it, the sooner would they be prepared for deciding upon it. If the vote of reference was final, the arguments of the gentleman from Massachusetts would apply. But this was not the case.

It had been said that the President had declared his opinion that we can dispense with these taxes. The statement was not correct. His opinion was contingent. He had said, we may dispense with these taxes in case we proportionably reduce the expenses.

As to the remarks made respecting the different opinions of the President and Secretary of the Treasury, they likewise were erroneous. Distinct views were taken by each. The President, contemplating a reduction in the expenses, intimates the expediency of repealing the internal taxes; whereas the Secretary of the Treasury, taking things as they are, states the effects of their continuance. From these circumstances, no diversity of opinion could be inferred.

Mr. M. concluded by expressing a hope that the expenses of the Government would be reduced, that the internal taxes would be taken off, and that immediate measures would be pursued for preparing the House for a final decision.

Mr. Eustis was alike hostile to the present motion and to that which had been made by the gentleman from Kentucky, who had yesterday introduced the subject. He had heard the motion with a sensation of uncommon surprise; for he was of opinion that the public attention should not be attracted, or the public sensation excited, till we should be able to determine the course proper to be pursued. He felt himself unprepared to decide, and believed other gentlemen were equally unprepared. He hoped that he cherished a suitable respect for the President of the United States, though he did not know that he would go so far as the gentleman from Delaware, and disband a whole army at his word.

The wisest course was to wait until information was obtained. This would in fact be gaining time. If the Committee of Ways and Means were to consider the subject, it must be under the present state of things. They could not take for granted what might or might not be done by Congress; and before Congress could decide, they must have information which they do not yet possess. He who, under present circumstance, attempted to say to what length our retrenchments would go, and what taxes we could spare, might indeed be called a prophet.

We ought not, said Mr. E., to stir the public sensibility improperly or prematurely. By exciting that sensibility before we had determined how to act in future, impressions may be raised which we shall not be able to satisfy.

Mr. Smilie concurred in opinion with Mr. E., and moved, as the best mode of disposing of the subject, that the committee rise.

Mr. Griswold declared himself against delay. He knew not why the House were not prepared to decide immediately. The President had introduced the subject, and if any sensibility had been excited, it must be ascribed to him, and not to us. Nor did he think that any ill effects would flow from attracting the public attention. The President did not know, when he addressed us, that we would be for a reduction of the expenses; yet, thinking as he did, it was highly proper in him to give his opinion to the House. So proposed to us, it would exhibit a want of respect to that Magistrate not to take it up immediately. Not to act upon it promptly would be subversive of the national tranquillity after the attention of the public had been directed to it.

Mr. Smilie had thought the gentleman from Connecticut was too well acquainted with the proceedings of that House to say that the Committee of Ways and Means were prepared to act upon this subject. Did they know how far we would reduce the Army, the Navy, or the Judiciary?

Mr. Varnum hoped the committee would rise. Any disposition of the subject was at present premature. As to the calculations of the Secretary alluded to, they were made from the existing revenue, and all his deductions were made therefrom. The President had taken another view of the subject. Contemplating the probability of a reduction in our expenses, he had stated that, in such event, we could dispense with the internal taxes. But whether the contemplated reduction could be made, the House were not prepared to say. Of one thing he was sure, that not a single necessary tax would be abandoned.

Mr. Dana said, that more than three weeks have elapsed since the President's communication has been laid before us, and, during that time, a sense of decorum has not induced us to take up one of the most important parts of it. He certainly agreed with gentlemen that we ought to take up the subject and decide for ourselves. If we concur with the President, we shall repeal the laws; if we do not concur, we may, it is true, risk our popularity by opposing so favorite a measure with the people. But placed as we shall be between popularity on the one hand, and duty on the other, as honest men we should do our duty. But certainly it is our duty now to examine the subject. Grant that the reduction in our expenses may extend to a million, though scarcely half that sum could be hoped for; still the question remains what taxes shall be diminished. He could not, for his part, feel all that horror of public sensibility that had been portrayed by the gentleman from Massachusetts. What have we to fear, suppose we interfere with that sensibility? If we do so in the discharge of our duty, he was perfectly willing it should be excited; nay, it would be useful to the people themselves.

Mr. Eustis was perfectly ready to meet the public sensibility, whether for or against us. We had already tried it both ways. He was much pleased with the respect professed by gentlemen for the public sensibility, and also for the communications of the President. But there were parts of those communications, which, notwithstanding the impatience of gentlemen, they would not be displeased at laying unacted upon, not merely three weeks, but three months.

Mr. Bayard did not expect an opposition to his motion from the quarter from which it came; for he had a right to expect as much deference to the President from the opposite, as from his own side. For his part he felt no terrors at meeting the whole, or any part of the President's communications. Whatever he recommended that was right, he would vote for, and whatever was wrong, he would oppose. Though his former habits had led him to cherish a respect for the President, of which he did not repent, yet he felt no servility that would lead him to repress an expression of his sentiments.

A gentleman from Pennsylvania had talked about reducing the Army, the Navy, and the Judiciary. But there were other expenses which the gentleman might have dwelt on. Why silent on the Legislature? Let us reduce the length of our sessions. It did not appear consistent in that gentleman to strike at the Judiciary, and other departments, and leave untouched whatever affected himself.

Mr. Randolph did not desire to occupy much of the time of the committee, as he thought it immaterial whether the committee rise or not. But he wished, for the information, and perhaps for the satisfaction, of the gentleman from Massachusetts, to state that, among other members, he was one who had not decided whether Government could dispense with the internal taxes. He hoped, and was inclined to believe, that they might be dispensed with. The Secretary of the Treasury had expressly stated that part of his report was speculative, viz: that part which inferred the effects of peace. The correctness of the opinion of the Secretary on this point must decide the House as to the propriety of giving up these taxes. He was one who, though he did not think a state of peace would materially affect the revenue, had not decided whether a reduction of the public impositions in this or that species of revenue should be made. He noticed these things, to prevent an impression being made on the public mind that the House were for precipitating a decision. As to the public sensation, he felt no alarm. He knew that our measures must depend upon the reductions we shall make.

Mr. R., for these reasons, was against any decision now; and had the gentleman from Kentucky pressed his motion yesterday, he was prepared to move a postponement of it. In the mean time, there were other important topics involved in the Message that might be referred and acted upon.

Mr. Dana presumed that the honorable gentleman from Massachusetts had done him the honor of alluding to him in his remarks. He was not very solicitous that the subject should be inquired into, but since it was brought up, he must say that nothing short of the talents of the honorable gentleman could furnish a semblance of reason for not going immediately into the inquiry. That gentleman errs egregiously, if he imagines that I can dread an investigation of any point involved in the President's Message. He would add, that whatever his particular opinion might be of the person to whom had been confided the Government of the nation, it became him only to see in him the First Magistrate of the country, and to treat him with correspondent respect, and to see in what he did, not the man, but the measure.

The question was then taken on the committee rising, and lost—yeas 29, nays 48.

The reference to the Committee of Ways and Means was then carried, both in committee and in the House, without a division.

The House adjourned till Monday.

Monday, January 4, 1802.

William Barry Grove, from North Carolina, appeared, produced his credentials, and took his seat in the House.

Ordered, That Mr. Milledge be appointed to the Committee of Ways and Means, in the room of Mr. Dickson, who is sick and unable to attend.

Judiciary System.

Mr. Randolph moved that the House should go into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, with the view of submitting three resolutions to the committee, viz:

"Resolved, That it is expedient to inquire whether any, and what, alterations should be made in the Judicial Establishment of the United States.

"Resolved, That provision ought to be made for the impartial selection of juries.

"Resolved, That it is expedient to inquire whether any, and what, reductions can be made in the civil expenses of the Government of the United States."

The House accordingly went into committee.

Mr. Bayard presumed an agreement to these resolutions would, in their present shape, meet with no opposition. It was impossible to determine what shape they would ultimately assume. The Judiciary system was doubtless susceptible of amendment, and if any proper amendments should be proposed, he would concur in their adoption. With respect to the second resolution, though he did not know that there was any necessity for altering the mode at present practised of selecting juries, not having heard of any complaints under it, yet, as the resolution only led to an inquiry into the subject, he would not object.

With regard to the last resolution, it was one in which we must all concur. The object, if attainable, would be extremely grateful to all of us.

The three resolutions were agreed to without a division. The committee then rose, and reported them to the House.

On the report being taken up, Mr. Randolph moved that the consideration of the two first resolutions be postponed till the third Monday of January.

Mr. Bayard hoped the motion for postponement would not prevail. The propositions were abstract ones, leading to inquiry, and the sooner they were acted upon, the better. The mode pursued by the gentleman from Virginia, if his simple object was to give notice, was the least happy that he could have devised, for it gave to gentlemen no opportunity to prepare themselves, as they were totally unacquainted, in the present stage of the business, as to what would be the alterations proposed. If a committee were now appointed, they would have time to deliberate on a subject of the utmost importance—one so complicated as to require great attention. When their report was made, he would be one of those who would ask from the candor of the House time to consider it.

Mr. Randolph said, he was at all times willing to accommodate gentlemen of every political description on proper occasions. Apprehending that his resolutions, if taken up in the House, would give rise to discussion, he had moved for their postponement, from a wish not to interfere with the desire of the gentleman from Pennsylvania, and other gentlemen, to act on the apportionment bill. As his motion for postponement appeared likely to be itself productive of discussion, by which the time of the House would be exhausted, and the means he used defeat the end he had in view, he would withdraw his motion.

The House then agreed to the resolutions without a division.

Mr. Randolph moved the reference of the two first resolutions to the same committee.

He said, in reply to the gentleman from Delaware, that he made the motion respecting juries not because any complaint did at present exist of the exercise of the powers under which jurors were selected, but because they had not long since existed, and because in similar circumstances they might again exist. He was glad the gentleman from Delaware had no reason to complain of their present abuse. But this was no security against the future.

Mr. Bayard said, that he had spoken as he had done, not for the purpose of expressing any opinion that any abuse respecting juries had been recently removed under the present state of things; but to state that he had never heard of any complaints on this subject in the part of the Union from which he came; and he had particularly alluded to the mode of designating jurors in his State, which was by ballot. But if there were complaints in other parts of the Union, he would co-operate in any means that could be devised for removing them.

Mr. Smilie said, that since the gentleman from Delaware had introduced the subject, and had declared that no complaints existed, he would say that complaints had existed, that just grounds for them existed, and that they had been expressed in the loudest tone. And he would appeal to the gentleman from Delaware whether any man could be safe who was at the mercy of a marshal, who was the mere creature of the President.

Mr. Bayard.—While man continues as he is, there will be complaints on this subject. We are divided into parties. The people, as well as the President, must belong to one side or the other; and whether we have sheriffs chosen by the people, or marshals appointed by the President, the evil will still exist. He had no objection, if it were the wish of gentlemen, that the marshals should be appointed by the people; though we know that the people are as apt, nay more apt, to be infected with violent political feelings, than an Executive officer.

Mr. Randolph said, that without desiring to exhaust the time of the House on a point where there was no difference of opinion, he could not permit the observation of the gentleman from Delaware to pass unnoticed; that an officer, holding a lucrative office, appointed by the President, and dependent upon his will, is as independent as a sheriff, elected in some States annually by the people, and in other States appointed in a manner calculated to ensure his independence. He would instance the State of Virginia, in which the sheriffs were nominated by the justices of the county courts, who, it was understood, were to hold the office of sheriff in rotation. Will the gentleman say that these men, who are independent of the pleasure of any man, are liable to be made the same tools, with officers who hold their appointments at the absolute will of one man?

Mr. R. would further say, that the remark of the gentleman from Delaware, that the existence of no complaints had ever come to his ears, had excited his extreme astonishment. In North Carolina, he believed, no legal jury had been selected since the establishment of the Federal Government. In that State, in the State courts, all juries are first selected in the inferior courts, and then sent to the superior courts. He would ask, how, under these circumstances, a jury could be struck in a federal court in that State agreeably to law? In Virginia and Pennsylvania, the independence of sheriffs is secured; therefore, no restrictions are imposed upon them in selecting juries; whereas, in the federal courts the marshal is the abject creature of the Executive—and yet we are told the security is the same! Mr. R. did not wish to consume the time of the House; but when views are taken by gentlemen calculated, either as to fact or sentiment, to lead the public mind astray, if other gentlemen did not, he would invariably notice them.

Mr. Bayard desired to explain. He had not meant to contend that sheriffs chosen for three years by the people were as dependent as similar officers appointed by the President. He had alluded to the effects which flowed from a marked division of parties. We were in all events subject to that evil. It was a truth that men deeply infected with party were more apt to be chosen by the people than by an Executive magistrate; because the people felt more strongly a degree of political fanaticism.

After some further debate, it was determined to refer the two first resolutions to a committee of seven, and the last to a committee of five members.

Ordered, That Mr. Nicholson, Mr. John Taliaferro, Jr., Mr. Goddard, Mr. Rutledge, Mr. Israel Smith, Mr. Henderson, and Mr. Bailey, be appointed a committee, pursuant to the first and second resolutions.

Ordered, That Mr. Bacon, Mr. Grove, Mr. Elmendorph, Mr. Hemphill, and Mr. Abram Trigg, be appointed a committee, pursuant to the third resolution.

Tuesday, January 5.

Apportionment Bill.

On the question being taken for striking out thirty-three, it was lost—yeas 42, nays 48.

Mr. Dennis moved to strike out eight, the number of Representatives allotted to Maryland, and insert nine; which amendment had been rendered necessary by the supplementary return received from Maryland.

On this motion a very desultory debate took place, which was twice interrupted by motions for the committee to rise, which were both lost.

Much personal recrimination, chiefly on the charge of delay on the one side, and precipitation on the other, was exchanged.

The amendment was at last agreed to—yeas 57.

The committee then rose and reported the bill as amended.

The House immediately took up the report of the committee, agreed to the amendments, and ordered the bill to be engrossed for a third reading to-morrow.

Thursday, January 7.

Stenographers.

The House went into Committee of the Whole on the standing rules of the House.

Mr. Leib moved the addition of the following rule:

"The Speaker shall assign such places to the stenographers on the floor, as shall not interfere with the convenience of the House."

Mr. Leib prefaced his motion, by observing that, in the standing rules proposed, no provision appeared to be made for the admission of stenographers. They had heretofore been subject to the will of the Speaker. However great his respect for the present Speaker, he was of opinion, that they should not depend for their accommodation upon the will of any man; and he thought it became the House, on this occasion, to establish a precedent which would place those who took the debates above the caprice of any individual.

Mr. Huger moved to amend the motion so as to read as follows;

"Stenographers shall be admitted, and the Speaker shall assign to them such places on the floor as shall not interfere with the convenience of the House."

Mr. Leib agreed to this modification.

The motion was opposed by Mr. Griswold, Mr. Rutledge, Mr. Varnum, Mr. Hemphill, Mr. T. Morris, Mr. Eustis, Mr. Dana, Mr. Elmer, and Mr. Goddard; and supported by Mr. Leib, Mr. S. Smith, Mr. Nicholson, Mr. Claiborne, Mr. Smilie, Mr. Holland, and Mr. Sprigg.

Mr. Huger opposed the original motion of Mr. Leib, but supported the motion, as amended by himself.

The opponents of the motion declared, that it did not relate to substance, but merely to form; that it was allowed on all hands, that the debates should be taken, and that stenographers should, consequently, be admitted. But the single question was, how, and under what authority, they should be admitted. They remarked, that they had heretofore been admitted by the Speaker, under whose direction they had remained; that the Speaker was the only proper authority under whose direction they ought still to remain; that, as the preservation of order and decorum rested with him, the stenographers, as well as other persons, should be permitted by him to enter the House, and be by him excluded, whenever, in his opinion, the order and a respect for the House required it. That, in case stenographers deported themselves in a disrespectful manner, or grossly misrepresented the ideas of members, the Speaker was the only person who could effectually cure the evil; that there had been, and might again be, instances of such misconduct; that, in one case, a stenographer had entered the House in a state of intoxication; another case, a speech of a gentleman from South Carolina, had been perversely misrepresented, and the stenographer had refused to correct his errors, for which he had been expelled the House; and that, in another case, the Speaker, considering himself as misrepresented, had expelled the stenographer.

Among the opponents of the motion, a great diversity of opinion prevailed. Mr. Eustis, Mr. Varnum, and Mr. Elmer, objected to it, merely on the ground that it was improper to come to any solemn decision, which was the less necessary, as the stenographers already occupied convenient seats, from which there was no probability of their being extruded by the Speaker.

Those who supported the motion, considered its decision as involving an important point; a point no less important, than, whether the debates of that House should be taken with accuracy, and published without fear or partiality. They averred it as a fact, that, owing to the unwarrantable conduct of the Speaker, this had heretofore, at many periods, not been the case. The public had sought information without being able to get it. It was true, that a stenographer had been expelled for publishing a speech of a gentleman from South Carolina; but it was not for misrepresenting that speech, but for faithfully publishing it; and in the other case alluded to, a stenographer had been expelled by the Speaker, for stating, with correctness, what the Speaker had himself said. These were alarming facts, not to be forgotten, and which claimed the interposition of the House. If stenographers should be guilty of indecorum, they could still (this rule notwithstanding) be expelled the House. It was acknowledged that the gentleman who at present filled the chair, was entitled to the full confidence of the House, but it was dangerous to vest arbitrary power in the hands of any man, and it was peculiarly proper to provide in fair, for foul weather; and it was added, that though the proposed rule would not be obligatory upon a future House, yet it would form a precedent, which they might see fit to respect.

The motion, as modified by Mr. Huger, was then agreed to—yeas 47, nays 32.

The committee then rose, and reported the rules with the above amendment.

The amendment was immediately taken up; when

Mr. Rutledge moved to amend the report of the committee, by making it read as follows:

"Stenographers may be admitted under the direction of the Speaker, who shall assign to them such places on the floor, as shall not interfere with the convenience of the House."

On this amendment a further debate ensued; after which, the yeas and nays were called, and were—yeas 27, nays 51.

Another motion was then made and seconded to amend the said amendment, by inserting after the words, "stenographers shall," the following words, "until otherwise ordered by the House;"

And, the question being thereupon taken, it passed in the negative.

And the main question being put, that the House do agree to the amendment for an additional rule, as reported from the Committee of the whole House, it was resolved in the affirmative—yeas, 47, nays 28.

Resolved, That this House doth agree to the said standing rules and orders, as amended.

Monday, January 11.

Another member, to wit, Seth Hastings, from Massachusetts, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

Mediterranean Trade.

Mr. Randolph moved a resolution directing the Secretary of the Treasury to lay before the House an estimate of the value of the exports of the United States, for the last five years, to ports situated within the Straits of Gibraltar, discriminating articles of American growth from other productions.

Mr. Randolph observed that he was aware of the inability of the Secretary to distinguish precisely the exports of the United States, carried to the Mediterranean ports of France and Spain, from those carried to their other ports. But still he thought it probable that the Secretary might be able to furnish information that would be valuable.

Mr. S. Smith said, that when the report was made by the Secretary, it would be a report of deception. A great part of our trade to the Mediterranean had been lopped off in consequence of the war.

Mr. Smith afterwards remarked that, on the report being made, he feared the inquiry would be, whether we should give up the protection of the Mediterranean trade, or not. Gentlemen would probably go into a calculation of figures; and if the expense of protection appeared to be greater than the benefit of the trade, they might be for withholding protection. There was one description of trade to the Mediterranean, which we could obtain no estimate of, which was however very important—the tonnage of American shipping employed in going from European ports to the Mediterranean, and from the Mediterranean to European ports, and American shipping employed between the East Indies and the Mediterranean. This trade the Government was as much bound to protect, as it was bound to protect the landed interest of the country. Still, Mr. S. knew not that it would be proper to oppose the passage of a resolution that asked for information.

Mr. Smilie knew not what information we could receive; but he knew that whatever it should be, it could do no harm.

Mr. Nicholson remarked, that the House would not be in a worse situation after the report, than it was now. For himself, he was in a state of total ignorance, and he believed a large part of the House was also ignorant of the extent of our Mediterranean trade. It was impossible that the House could be deceived by the report; as, if any part of it should be calculated to deceive us, his colleague would be able to detect its errors. He had heard, and that too from commercial men, that our Mediterranean trade was not valuable, and not worth the expense of the squadron fitted out to protect it. He was at a loss to decide between these opinions and those of his colleague.

Mr. Mitchill spoke in favor of the resolution.

Mr. Griswold had no objection to obtaining the estimate, if desired by gentlemen; not that he supposed the report could present the information that was desired. With regard to our Mediterranean trade, it was well known, that lately, owing to our contest with Algiers, our fish and oil went in European bottoms, which could not be noticed in the Treasury statements, as they went first to other ports.

Mr. Eustis was perfectly willing to obtain the report, that the great increase in our trade to the Mediterranean should be seen; from which its great value would fully appear, and its claim to encouragement.

Mr. Varnum suggested the propriety of a reference to a select committee, which, from the documents before the House, could select the desired information.

Mr. Rutledge feared, that the call for this information would delay the passage of an important bill before the House for the protection of our Mediterranean commerce. He hoped, in order as promptly as possible to obtain information, the Secretary of the Treasury would be called upon for it. With respect to the protection of our trade in the Mediterranean, it was, in his opinion, unimportant what its extent was. We were bound to protect the commerce of our citizens in all its ramifications, whether great or small.

The resolution was then agreed to.

Thursday, January 14.

Another member, to wit, John Dawson, from Virginia, appeared, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

Wednesday, January 20.

Military Peace Establishment.

The House then took up the amendment to the bill fixing the Military Peace Establishment.

Mr. Bayard moved to strike out the office of Brigadier General. He said there could not be any occasion for such an officer, as the men were scattered over the whole extent of our frontiers and Atlantic coast, and placed in small divisions.

This brought on a debate which was continued until after three o'clock.

The question was taken by yeas and nays for striking out—36 against it, 54 for it.

Mr. Bayard moved to strike out the office of colonel, and add one to the number of majors; but it was not agreed to.

The bill proposed to give those officers who should be deranged, three months' pay when they were dismissed from the service.

Mr. Griswold moved to strike out "three months," that a greater compensation might be given to those who have grown gray in the service of their country. He thought more was due to them than what the bill proposed to allow.

Mr. Varnum said, his own opinion was in favor of a greater compensation; but he owed it to a majority of that House, to yield his opinion to what they had fixed it at. He said there was nothing due to those officers, as nothing had been promised them.

Mr. Mitchill was in favor of striking out, for the purpose of inserting a compensation proportionate to the length of time the officers had been in service.

Mr. Bacon differed as to the principle laid down by gentlemen. When officers were wanted, there was great competition for the appointments. They were desirous to receive the pay and emoluments. He did not think there was any thing due to them.

Mr. S. Smith was for pursuing some system in this business, and keeping to a uniform principle. When a reduction was made in 1796, six months' pay and subsistence was granted. He would be in favor of that at this time.

Mr. Dana believed those officers accepted their appointments under an idea of its being the permanent Peace Establishment, and therefore something was due to them when dismissed from the public service.

Mr. Smilie said, they knew the terms on which they entered the service, and they entered voluntarily. How could any thing, then, be due to them? It would be more proper to give the men something when disbanded than to provide for the officers. It was not long since that about forty were wanted, and there were thirteen hundred applications. Men could not always be obtained. When the ten regiments were ordered to be raised, the officers were soon obtained; but, after recruiting a long time, the proper number of men could not be procured.

The question for striking out was taken by yeas and nays—for it 26, against it 56.

Mr. S. Smith made a motion to raise it to the same as was granted in 1796.

Mr. Eustis advocated it, but it was not carried, there being 26 for it, and 45 against it.

The bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading to-morrow.

Thursday, January 21.

Military Peace Establishment.

An engrossed bill fixing the Military Peace Establishment of the United States was read the third time.

Mr. Bayard observed that he should vote for the bill, because he thought it better than the former system, and it would be of much saving as to expense. He was, however, very far from being pleased with a part of that bill, that part relating to the Brigadier General and his aide-de-camp. This office he knew to be a perfect sinecure; no such officer was necessary; he could have no duties to perform. He would not, however, vote against the whole bill on account of this.

Mr. Rutledge.—The first section was very disagreeable to him, as it went to the establishment of a perfect sinecure. He was willing to do homage to the merit of the officer who was to benefit; but he rather thought it would be more consonant with justice, if money must be needlessly sported with, to suffer such money to be given to those who have been long in service—some fifteen or twenty years—and who are now by this bill suddenly forced to quit their present, to seek some new way of obtaining a livelihood, in circumstances, many of them perhaps, not enviable.

Mr. R. was not pleased with the so great reduction of the artillery; he thought the retention of the artillery of more importance than that of the infantry. He had hoped the artillery would have been retained to keep in order the forts already built in different parts of the United States; the small number remaining was quite incompetent to preserving them in order, or preserving them from decay. The Secretary of War mentions one fort in South Carolina. There are, sir, four forts in the harbor of Charleston alone, some of which must go to decay. He should vote for the bill because it went to make great reductions of expense, which reductions circumstances now allow us to afford; but the sinecure was obnoxious to him, and he was not pleased with the reduction of the artillery.