FOURTH CONGRESS.—SECOND SESSION. (continued 6)

Mr. Dearborn said, as far as the proposition related to Niagara, Oswego, and Detroit, he thought it improper to appropriate money for their defence. He believed it would require a year or two to know what was necessary to be done there. At Niagara, the works were large enough for six or seven thousand men, and it would become a question whether they should be reduced, or kept up as they were; at Oswego, nothing more could be necessary than a block-house. It was true, there were considerable works there, but until it was decided what they should do with them, it would be improper to appropriate money for their repair. The same thing might be said of Detroit. He had no idea that the President could have information from those places of what was necessary. Whatever temporary repair might be required there, the troops themselves would be able to effect. As to West Point, he did not know any thing about it, except that it was a place of consequence; he also knew that a great deal of money had been laid out upon it. He hoped they should get into a new system with respect to the defence of our ports and harbors; and until that was done, he should be against granting any considerable sum for this purpose. If gentlemen were in possession of any information on the subject, he perhaps might be induced to vote for a small sum: but not until he knew more of the matter.

Mr. Livingston spoke of the importance of the fort at West Point, and of the necessity of keeping it in proper repair.

Mr. Coit said, the question seemed to have taken a new turn. He presumed that West Point was not in the idea of the Secretary of War when he made the estimate upon which this bill was founded. If it had been, it would have been very improper to have begun with Oswego, and include West Point in the et cetera. In June, 1796, 20,000 dollars, he said, were appropriated for the repairs of this fort, and they had not been informed that it had been expended.

Mr. Gallatin said, there had been 7,000 dollars expended at West Point; the other 13,000 dollars were not intended for that fort. The present appropriation was doubtless intended for the forts mentioned, and those in the same quarter. If any thing was wanted for West Point, a distinct proposition should come before them for that purpose.

Mr. W. Smith observed that the gentleman last up had stated that only 7,000 dollars had been expended at West Point; that was only the amount which had been expended at the time the estimate was made; but the whole might have been since laid out, as then only 520,000 dollars of the appropriation of the Military Establishment had been expended.

Mr. Gallatin said, that the total expenditure of the estimate alluded to was 1,280,479 dollars.

The question was put and negatived, there being only 19 votes in favor of it.

The committee then rose and had leave to sit again.

Tuesday, February 28.

Algerine Captives: Ransom.

The Secretary of State, to whom was referred the petitions of George Smith and John Robertson, who prayed for a repayment of the money which they had themselves paid for their ransom from Algerine slavery, reported that the ransom of George Smith cost $2,426, of which Colonel Humphreys had paid $1,526, and George Smith the remainder; that by the late return of our citizens from Algiers, the expense attending the redemption of each man was ascertained to be $2,396, independent of the expense of the general negotiation, and allowing for small inaccuracies on account of some expenses which could not at present be ascertained. He recommends, therefore, that George Smith have paid him $873, which, with the sum paid by Colonel Humphreys, would make about $2,400. John Robinson paid for his own ransom $1,518, the interest upon which came to $516; the Secretary therefore recommends that $2,034 be paid to him.

On motion of Mr. Swanwick, this report was referred to a select committee, viz: Messrs. Swanwick, Blount, Coit, Sewall, and Parker.

General Appropriation Bill.

The amendments from the Senate to the bill making appropriations for the support of Government for the year 1797, were taken up and agreed to, as also those to the bill laying additional duties on sundry articles of impost. The amendments which were agreed to were to add to white cotton goods, "velvets and velverets, whether printed, stained, colored, or otherwise, and all muslins and muslinets, two and a half per cent." And also a new section, enacting that an addition of 10 per cent. should be laid upon these articles when imported in ships or vessels not of the United States. The duties are to take place after the 31st of December next.

Military and Naval Appropriations.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Military and Naval Appropriations; when, the pay and subsistence of three captains in the Naval department being under consideration—

Mr. Swanwick thought it would be necessary to have a laborer or two employed to take care of the vessels and materials.

Mr. W. Smith said, the estimate for the captains was $4,200; if the sum was made $5,000, there would be sufficient for the payment of any laborers which might be necessary. Agreed to.

The blank for the payment of Military Pensions was agreed to be filled with $96,350.

And for making good the deficiencies of the Military Establishment of 1796, $76,312.

Also, for the payment of the expedition of General Sevier into the Cherokee nation, $22,816.

The committee now rose, and had leave to sit again.

Executive Veto on the Army Bill.

The following Message, in writing, was received from the President of the United States, containing his objections to the bill for fixing the Military Establishment:

Gentlemen of the House of Representatives:

Having maturely considered the bill to alter and amend an act, entitled "An act to ascertain and fix the Military Establishment of the United States," which was presented to me on the twenty-second day of this month, I now return it to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with my objections.

First. If the bill passes into a law, the two companies of light dragoons will be, from that moment, legally out of service, though they will continue afterwards actually in the service; and for their services during this interval, namely, from the time of legal to the time of actual discharge, it will not be lawful to pay them, unless some future provision be made by law. Though they may be discharged at the pleasure of Congress, in justice they ought to receive their pay, not only to the time of passing the law, but at least to the time of their actual discharge.

Secondly. It will be inconvenient and injurious to the public to dismiss the light dragoons as soon as notice of the law can be conveyed to them, one of the companies having been lately destined to a necessary and important service.

Thirdly. The companies of light dragoons consist of one hundred and twenty-six non-commissioned officers and privates, who are bound to serve as dismounted dragoons when ordered so to do. They have received, in bounties, about two thousand dollars; one of them is completely equipped, and above half of the non-commissioned officers and privates have yet to serve more than one-third of the time of their enlistment; and, besides, there will, in the course of the year, be a considerable deficiency in the complement of infantry intended to be continued. Under these circumstances, to discharge the dragoons does not seem to comport with economy.

Fourthly. It is generally agreed that some cavalry, either militia or regular, will be necessary; and, according to the best information I have been able to obtain, it is my opinion that the latter will be less expensive and more useful than the former in preserving peace between the frontier settlers and the Indians, and, therefore, a part of the Military Establishment should consist of cavalry.

G. WASHINGTON.

United States, February 28, 1797.

On motion,

"Resolved, That to-morrow be assigned for the reconsideration of the said bill, in the mode prescribed by the Constitution of the United States."

The question to concur was put and carried—40 to 37.

Wednesday, March 1.

Military Establishment.

Mr. Gallatin wished the bill for fixing the Military Establishment, which had been returned by the President of the United States, with his objections, to be taken up.

Mr. W. Smith hoped this subject would be taken up, but before it was entered upon, he wished the Committee of the Whole to be discharged from the consideration of it, as he found, in a former instance of a similar kind, the business had been settled in the House. The committee was accordingly discharged. The House then proceeded to reconsider the bill, agreeably to the direction of the constitution. The bill was first read, and then the objections of the President.

The Speaker then read the clause in the constitution which directs the proceedings on such an occasion, and which says, that in case two-thirds of the House wherein it originated shall be in favor of passing the bill, it shall be sent to the other, and if two-thirds of that House be also in favor of it, it shall become a law. The votes of both Houses to be determined by yeas and nays.

Mr. Nicholas said, he meant to vote against the bill, but he did not wish to stand charged with refusing to pay the men for the time they were in service. He thought this bill was by no means liable to a charge of this kind; as it could scarcely be supposed that, at the time they were making a voluntary gift of $100 to every officer discharged, the Legislature meant to defraud the men of their pay.

Mr. W. Smith did not see any necessity for the observations of the gentleman from Virginia. There was nothing in the Message of the President which charged that House with an intention to defraud the men of their pay. Whatever was the design of gentlemen, this was not the charge. But certain it was that this would be the result of the bill, and it would be six weeks or two months before they could be notified that the act was passed. It was the legal opinion of the Attorney General, therefore, that they would not be entitled to pay during that time.

Mr. Nicholas was sorry that the gentleman from South Carolina and he did not think alike on the subject; he thought the objections he had made were necessary, and he had made them for the purpose stated. He thought the President ought not to have doubted their willingness to have allowed the pay in question. He was of opinion the House had given some extraordinary proofs of their liberality this session; amongst other proofs of this, they had determined to appropriate money for the building of a thirty-six gun frigate, which he had caused to be built without authority. But the pay of these men was so much a point of law, that he believed the men would have been entitled to pay.

Mr. W. Smith said, their having agreed to give each of the officers $100, without mentioning the men, rather went against the gentleman's conclusion; because, if any thing had been intended to have been given to them, they would also have been mentioned.

Mr. Williams was sorry that some things had not been more attended to, when that bill was under consideration; and, although there would be a difficulty respecting the Brigadier General and Staff, yet he thought the objections well founded, and would vote against the passing of the bill, in order that a new one might be brought in to avoid the objections, from the demands lately made for the protection of the frontiers of Georgia and Tennessee, which amounted to upwards of $300,000; he fully agreed with the President that it would be less expense to keep up the two companies of dragoons than to employ militia horse.

The yeas and nays were then taken, and stood 55 to 26.

The bill being accordingly lost, Mr. Nicholas moved that a committee be appointed to bring in a new bill, which being agreed to, a new bill was reported (exactly the same as the former, except an omission of the parts objected to by the President.) It was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading, and afterwards passed.

Case of Hanging Maw.

Mr. Blount called for the order of the day on the report of the Committee of Claims on the petition of the widow of the late Scollacuttaw, or Hanging Maw. The House accordingly went into a committee thereon, when the report was read, as follows:

"That the complaints against the conduct of one John Beard, and a number of armed men, who, she states, in the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety-three, contrary to law and the good faith of Government, attacked the dwelling-house of the petitioner and husband, killed and wounded a number of well-disposed Indians; burnt, and destroyed, and carried away their property, and wounded the petitioner. She now prays that some provision may be made for her.

"After examining the statement made by the petitioner, and the facts upon which she rests her present application, the committee have found some difficulty in deciding what measures would be most advisable for the House to adopt.

"Previous to the attack on the Hanging Maw, the frontier settlers of Tennessee and the Indians in that quarter had been guilty of mutual acts of aggression and hostility. A party of the Indians had killed some settlers; their trail was discovered, conducting across the Tennessee—this circumstance induced a belief in their pursuers that the Hanging Maw had been concerned in that business, and occasioned his being wounded, and the misfortunes complained of by his widow. The general opinion, however, represents the Hanging Maw as having been uniformly friendly to the settlers; as vigilant to apprise them of the approach of banditti; and constant in his exertions, on all occasions, to compose difficulties between them and his nation; and, withal, as possessing considerable influence over the Indians. The same disposition is also attributed to his widow, the present petitioner; who, instead of exciting her people to acts of retaliation, has abated nothing in her friendship to the white people.

"All these circumstances seem to countenance, if not to require for her a pension from the Government, or some other relief from the Legislature. Such a provision might also be considered as extending its influence beyond the particular object; or, as an inciting cause to other Indians to pursue a similar line of conduct, under circumstances alike cruel and distressing, should they happen.

"But, on the other hand, it is to be considered that there are citizens on the frontiers who have suffered injuries as cruel, and deprivations as severe by the Indians; and who have been thereby left in situations of distress that would equally call for assistance from the Legislature. Questions arise whether both descriptions of sufferers ought not to be provided for? Whether the abilities of Government would be competent to meet all possible claims of this nature? And whether help can be extended by law to the one, and consistently refused to the other?

"It may be said that those who settle on the frontiers voluntarily assume all the risks and dangers attached to that position; and, therefore can have no just claim upon the Government for consequences resulting from their choice; whilst, on the contrary, policy requires that the minds of the Indians, who may be roused to hostility by acts of the settlers, should be quieted by small pecuniary interpositions.

"Under these views of the subject, the committee have hesitated what report to make; but, upon the whole, as the authority vested in the Executive Department is competent to meet this claim; and should the petitioner, from her sufferings and her attachment to the United States, appear to the Executive to be entitled to any annual relief, as it may be afforded out of the appropriations for contingent expenses in the Indian Department, without any interference of the Legislature, and as this mode will probably involve the fewest difficulties, the committee think she should apply to that department; and that the prayer of her petition ought not to be granted."[12]

The committee reported their agreement with the resolution reported from the Committee of Claims.

The question was taken, that the House do agree with the Committee of the whole House in their agreement to the said report, and resolved in the affirmative.

Thursday, March 2.

The bill for the relief of American seamen was read the third time and passed.

Military Appropriations.

On the motion of Mr. W. Smith, the House went into a committee of the Whole on the bill making appropriation for the Military Establishment, when the following items were agreed to without debate:

For the payment of the army,$256,450

For the subsistence of the officers,47,395

For the subsistence of the non-commissioned officers and privates,245,283

For forage,14,904

For clothing,83,050

Mr. W. Smith then proposed to insert a new item, in consequence of the bill just passed, "For the purchase of horses and the equipment of the cavalry, $16,085."

Mr. Gallatin said, the items which had been agreed to were upon the ground of an increase of 126 dragoons which was not in the former bill. The item now under consideration went to provide horses and equipments for an additional company of cavalry. It appeared that this company was heretofore without either, so that they must have been employed as dismounted dragoons; and if they now appropriated the sum before them, they would, in fact, add a company of horse to the establishment. He believed it to be the general opinion that they had cavalry sufficient at present; indeed, it was the opinion of a large majority of that House that none were necessary; but if they did appropriate for any, he thought they ought not to go beyond the present establishment.

Mr. W. Smith said, if they refused to make the appropriation under consideration, they declared that one of the two companies of cavalry should act as infantry. By the bill passed yesterday, it was left altogether to the option of the President to employ them either as cavalry or infantry: but if this appropriation was withheld, he would be under the necessity of employing them as infantry only, and this House would now exercise a discretion which only yesterday they had vested in the Executive.

It would be observed, that, in the message of the President, he had fully stated the reasons why dragoons would be requisite. The business upon which one of the companies was at present employed was to escort the Commissioners employed in running the boundary lines betwixt the territory of the United States and the Indians; the other was indispensable for the protection of the frontiers.

What, Mr. S. asked, would be the consequence of refusing this appropriation? One of the companies of dragoons would be obliged to act as infantry, and Government would be compelled to employ militia-horse at a great expense. If this was economy, he was mistaken in his ideas of economy. The sum was conformable to the estimate which he had received from the War Office.

Mr. Hartley was in favor of the appropriation, that the President might be at full liberty to employ the troops on foot or on horse-back, according as the service might require.

Mr. Nicholas thought, while they were making appropriations, this subject might as well be included. If these men were to be kept, they ought to be properly equipped. He said it was the opinion of the President and the Secretary of War that cavalry was necessary, and therefore he had concluded it would be proper, and wished them to be kept up, so as to be called into service whenever necessary.

Mr. Milledge thought there was great need of cavalry; it would be an object of policy, as, by information he had received from the Governor of Georgia, (which he had in his hand, and which was corroborated by a late Governor,) horse were absolutely necessary—he thought three companies—on the frontier. He therefore was in favor of the appropriation.

Mr. Varnum had no doubt but the gentleman from Georgia, and every gentleman in the House, would be glad to have horse and infantry too kept up in their State: every part would be glad to have the public money expended upon it. He could not see why a body of cavalry should be kept up in a time of peace. He thought the Legislature had as good a right to judge as any person, notwithstanding the authorities produced to sanction the appropriation. Mr. V. had no doubt, if this was granted, that application would soon be made again for a similar purpose. He hoped this appropriation would not take place; it would be a small saving, and might as well be made, as there was so much want of it. He could have wished the troops reduced to two regiments, which he thought quite sufficient for a Peace Establishment. He hoped the President's ideas on the subject would not obtain to govern the decisions of the House, as we have the power, said he, to withhold appropriations; and what gentlemen who were locally concerned should say, he could not be guided by; as soldiers would consume their produce and spend money amongst them, consequently they were interested.

Mr. Craik really lamented that the gentleman had not been in the House yesterday, at the time the subject was more under consideration: he might then have inveighed against the President. The observations might have come with more propriety, if they had been made before the bill passed, and when under discussion; but, after a law has passed the proper authorities—after it has been resolved to have these troops of horse—to say, we will not appropriate money to carry it into effect, is strange conduct. If the determination of the gentleman was to oppose the bill, he should have used every means to that purpose, and if not effectual, at least to suffer others to enjoy their will—especially a majority. For the sake of consistency, he hoped the gentleman would withdraw his opposition, and not in this side-way try to defeat the operation of a bill which has passed. The cavalry were voted because they were supposed to be necessary, and now a gentleman comes forward, endeavoring to excite the jealousy of the House on the Executive's meddling with the Military Establishment. Mr. C. said he was pleased that the President had refused it, if it was only to convince some gentlemen that he had power to refuse that or any other bill. [Here Mr. Dent asked the gentleman if he was in order.] Mr. Craik said he only wished to prove the inconsistency of the member's conduct. He thought the House should not betray a want of consistency. He believed, from the statement of the member from Georgia, and the reasons of the President, that horse were necessary, and he therefore should wish the appropriation to be passed.

Mr. Kitchell said, gentlemen seemed to be mistaken; they were continually alluding to the law passed yesterday. There was not a word about two troops of horse yesterday. All we then said, was, that we would not say there should not be two troops of horse; the Message of the President did not say that two troops should be mounted, nor do I say, said Mr. K., that horse are not necessary; I think some are necessary; but the inquiry seemed to be, now, whether the House were to vote for more.

Mr. W. Smith said, the gentleman's observations were very extraordinary; he surely could not have attended to the subject, to say that the House had not passed the law authorizing two troops of horse. We have a law in force, said he, to ascertain and fix the Military Establishment, in which we authorize the President to employ the two troops of dragoons, to serve either on horse or foot at his discretion. The bill we sent up yesterday does not repeal that law, and yet gentlemen would now come forward to oppose the appropriation, and determine they shall act on foot. He could not think with what propriety the restriction could be made as the gentleman from Massachusetts wishes, nor could he think how the gentleman from Jersey had attended. Should we now say they should be at our direction, and that we would not grant money without? This would be strange conduct—an assumption of power which he hoped the House would never arrogate.

Mr. Kitchell said his meaning was, that the horse were not established yesterday, but before.

Mr. Hartley said it appeared, from good testimony, that the troops were requisite to save the people on the frontiers from the depredations of the Indians; he thought, therefore, that they having been established before, the House were bound to make the appropriation to give effect, or show the great inconsistency.

Mr. Nicholas said it was not his intention to vote for these men at all; but if they must have them, perhaps it would be most economical to equip them. With respect to their power of withholding the appropriation, he had no doubt; and though they had yesterday passed a law establishing two companies of cavalry, it was in the power of that House, of the Senate, or of the President, to refuse an appropriation. This was the sense of the constitution. When the bill came before the House, he should give his negative to the additional horse; for, if they were always to keep up the same number of men, whether in war or peace, except two-thirds of both Houses were found to oppose the will of the President, they might bid adieu to all restraint upon Executive power, and count upon a military Government, if ever an Executive should be found whose will it should be to make it so. If these were to be kept up, he would still say the House had better go to $100,000 expense to mount them on horse-back.

Mr. Varnum said it was observed by gentlemen that those troops were not mounted; if so, there must have been a very lavish waste of money. However that might be, gentlemen who state this matter ought to state it fairly. They ought not to say that two companies of cavalry were yesterday voted. No, they were part of the old War Establishment. It was true, the House had not the power to repeal the law; but one thing was in their power, and that they ought to do, if they see this part of the standing army necessary. The constitution returns the power to act on it once in every two years to each branch of the Legislature. The House, he thought, had good right to exercise their own opinion on the necessity of mounting these men. It was not in the power of one branch to repeal the law which keeps these men, but we ought to consider whether they are to be put in the same situation as in time of war. Mr. V. said he discharged his duty in voting against this appropriation. The House had a right to judge, and it was not in the power of the President to act for them.

Mr. Heath said that the subject had been fully discussed, and therefore he should only observe, that, from the authority which had recommended the mounting of these cavalry, he should vote for the appropriation.

Mr. Milledge repeated his arguments on the local situation of the country, and asserted the absolute necessity of the troops.

The motion was put and carried—there being 56 in favor of it.

Naval Appropriations.

Mr. W. Smith then proposed to add $172,000 for finishing the frigates United States, Constitution, and Constellation.

Mr. Nicholas said he should be against appropriating so large a sum for this purpose. It was the sense of the House, on a former occasion, that it would be proper to appropriate such a sum as should put them in such a situation as to secure them from injury, but to stop short of making them fit for sea, that the expense of manning them might be avoided.

Mr. Swanwick said a new view of the subject seemed to be brought forward at present. Before, they had determined to finish the frigates; but now, they were not to finish them, lest they should be manned, but to finish them in part only. A gentleman yesterday said, when speaking on the subject of the President's Message, that he could not suppose they would have refused to pay the soldiers, though there might be some deficiency in the expression of the act; and might he not suppose, said Mr. S., if the frigates were so nearly finished, he might go on to finish them, and trust to the Legislature to furnish the money? These frigates, he said, were a very extraordinary concern. It seemed as if it was only when it was to be made a present of to Algiers, that a frigate could be finished, and not when it was for the protection of our own commerce. He trusted, however, that there would not be a majority found in that House who would vote against finishing the frigates: as to manning them, that would remain for a future consideration.

Mr. Parker said, it would require all the money which had been named for finishing the frigates, without rigging, though there would be a considerable quantity of materials left on hand. There need be no apprehension of their being manned, whilst seamen's wages remained at the price they were, because men could not be got on the terms stipulated in the law for this purpose. If a smaller sum than was mentioned were to be granted, they might as well give nothing.

Mr. Sitgreaves supposed the blank was now proposed to be filled with the same sum which had been agreed upon on a former occasion. If this were the case, it ought to dissipate the fears of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Nicholas,) as it was well known that the sum was predicated upon a supposition that the frigates were not to be manned. If they were to be manned, a further appropriation would certainly be necessary.

Mr. Nicholas said, it appeared to him that if all gentlemen were agreed that this business should go no further than the building of the frigates, they could have no hesitation to leave undone some of the internal finishing work of the vessels; if they did not wish to put them into such a situation as that they might force them into service upon the spur of an alarm, they could have no objection to their being left in such a situation as to be perfectly secure, but not finished fit for sea.

Mr. Sitgreaves said this subject had heretofore undergone a very full discussion. A motion was then made merely to finish the hulls, which was negatived. It was then said that contracts were made for all the materials, and that except the frigates were finished, the engagements which had been entered into could not be fulfilled. But there was another security against the danger apprehended. They had lately come to a determination to make all appropriations specific and particular. What was the language of the present appropriation? It was for finishing the frigates, not for manning them. If it had been said to be for carrying into effect the law for the Naval Establishment, there might have been some little ground for apprehension; but, as it now stood, the Executive could not proceed to man the vessels.

Mr. Nicholas said, when they voted the sum now asked for finishing the frigates, the expenditure was accompanied by a law to repeal the manning clause of the former act. He had made inquiries respecting contracts, and found the money in hand was equal to the fulfilment of them; if there had been any others, he supposed they should have heard of them. He again said there were many ornamental parts of the vessels which might be as well thrown upon the expense of next year as of this.

Mr. Swanwick said, if Government could have had foresight sufficient to have known that there would have been any objections made to the finishing of the frigates, they would certainly not have entered into any contracts to that extent, but they could not possibly do this. He wished, if gentlemen were determined the frigates should not be made use of, that they would say at once they should be sold on the stocks. With respect to manning of them from the money proposed to be appropriated, that was impossible, and he saw no reason for making the business doubly sure by any other precaution.

Mr. Holland said it was, with great propriety, intended by many members in the House to keep the frigates in such a state as to prevent their being manned. If we appropriate to finish them, said he, we shall be exposed to all the difficulties depicted by the gentleman from Pennsylvania; for some way would be devised to procure and pay men, if the House put it in the power of the Executive to do it: therefore he hoped, to avoid all that trouble and expense, they would not vote to finish them. For what purpose, said he, should they be finished, unless it were intended to man them? To avoid every danger of that kind, he should vote against the sum proposed.

Mr. Hartley said, that last year the six frigates which had been before voted for were reduced to three, with intent to complete them. Was it not probable then, he would ask, that the President would proceed to complete those frigates, according to the power given him? Was it not to be supposed that contracts were entered into for that purpose? No person could suppose but contracts were made. Then certainly the House ought not to expose the Executive to the ridiculous situation of receding from his contracts! They would not be finished before next session, and therefore no danger of equipping could be apprehended. It may be necessary to use them, but at any rate it would be running no risk to have them finished, as they could not be manned by this appropriation.

Mr. Gallatin said, there seemed to be involved in the present consideration the question whether or not we should have a Navy. As to himself, he should vote against the present appropriation, because if the frigates were completely finished, he should fear they would get to sea. When they had on a former occasion consented to finish them, it was under the condition of the law for manning being repealed; but they now stood upon new ground. Mr. G. said he had been charged with inconsistency of opinion, from having before said that he thought the President would not be authorized to proceed in the manning of the vessels under the present law, whilst he was now apprehensive that he might do so. He wished to be on sure ground. He did not know but the President might put a different construction upon the law from him. Indeed, from the experience they had had of Presidential discretion, they need not be surprised if the vessels were sent to sea, though no appropriation was made for the purpose, should the President suppose there was any plea for doing so. As a proof of this power having been exercised heretofore, Mr. G. referred to the Western insurrection. In that case, he said, no appropriation was made for the expense; but the law authorizes the President to call out the militia when he shall see occasion to do so; he called them out, and got money from the Treasury. Indeed, the building of a frigate for Algiers, without any authority, and the pledging of the faith of the nation to pay the expense of the law-suits of our citizens in London, were strong proofs of what the Executive could do.

Mr. G. said he did not mean to bring into view any arguments relative to the propriety of establishing a Navy in this country. He should vote against the present motion, because he did not wish to see the frigates at sea, and because he conceived a Navy to be prejudicial to the true interests of this country. Something had been said about contracts, but he did not believe any existed. They had last year been told the same thing. Any person reading the statements which had been furnished to them, would perceive that the business was not done by any contract, but that men were employed by Government, and regular wages paid to them. The frigate which had been built for Algiers had been built by contract, they had an estimate of it at so much a ton, but this was not the case with respect to any other of the frigates.

Mr. W. Smith did not wish to go into a long debate on the subject, when they had so much business before them, in order to show whether it was proper for this country to have a Navy or not; the only question now was, whether they ought to appropriate money for finishing the three frigates. If they did not do it, all the money which had been already expended would probably be lost. The only objection to the doing of this seemed to arise from a fear that the vessels would be manned, though when this subject was before them, the other day, the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) moved to postpone the bill relative to the repealing or suspending the law for manning the vessels till next session, from an opinion that, by the present law, the President was not authorized to man them. That gentleman seemed now, however, in contradiction to himself, to fear the President would put a different construction upon the law: if he did not believe the President would violate the law, he could not account for his refusing now to vote the money which was merely necessary to finish the vessels. Mr. S. read an extract from the report of the Secretary of War, to show the forward state in which the vessels were, and added, that they were bound in duty to finish them, were it only to prevent the loss of the money already expended upon them.

Mr. Dearborn observed, that if he was convinced, from the documents which had been laid before them, that the sum now asked for was necessary merely to finish the frigates, he should not hesitate to vote for it; but it was not a little extraordinary that the gentlemen on that committee (not even the Chairman, who seemed to have the business so much at heart) could not say whether this sum was necessary for finishing and rigging, or finishing without rigging, or for finishing, rigging, and manning. The frigate building in this city, the captain had told him, was calculated in point of size to carry 62 guns, instead of 44; which was one of the reasons they had cost so much more than they had been estimated at. Mr. D. said, he suspected that the sum proposed would not only be sufficient to finish the hulls, but to rig and fit the vessels for sea, and until he had more satisfaction on the subject he could not consent to give his vote for it.

Mr. Kittera observed, that gentlemen first said, that under the present law, the President could not proceed to man and send the vessels to sea, but now they were apprehensive this might be done, though no appropriation was made for the purpose. This, he thought, somewhat inconsistent; but he believed whilst thirty dollars a month was given to seamen by merchants, and their law only authorized eleven to be given, there was not much to be feared on this head.

Mr. Ames said, that gentlemen opposed to the finishing of the frigates, seemed to be also opposed to all ideas of this country ever becoming a naval power; the necessity of this, he was persuaded, would ere long appear. It was not to be supposed that a nation whose commerce was greater than that of any other, except Great Britain, should go on long without a naval protection; and he believed the more strenuous the opposition shown against this measure, the sooner it would be accomplished; he was not therefore displeased to see the present violent opposition to every thing which looked towards this object.

It was not enough, Mr. A. said, for gentlemen to discourage the building of ships, they would also discredit the administration of Government; and nothing was more natural than that those who thought so ill of it themselves should endeavor to spread those opinions. This was done continually. With respect to the building of the frigates, he thought it was a wise step; and as to the extra expense and delay which had attended the business, he believed, gentlemen might take a share of the blame upon themselves, on account of the versatility which had been shown upon the occasion in this day agreeing upon one thing, and that upon another. It was true, that another cause of extra expense was owing to a resolution which had been taken to make the ships much larger than was contemplated by the House; the vessel building here, he believed, was nearly 1,600 tons. He was glad that this alteration of plan had been adopted; not because more money would be expended on this account; not because contrary to the direction of the Legislature, but because true wisdom required it; they would now be an overmatch for any frigate, or any vessel which the Algerines could send out against them. These, he believed, were the views of the Executive in having them built of the size they were. The number of the frigates agreed to be finished had been reduced to three; and these they last session passed a law to finish. But what was now to be done? It was said they should not be finished. Who said this? Did the people? did the Government say it? No; that House alone said it: so that that House were about to usurp the supreme authority. We are the Government, we are the people, we are every thing.

But, if there be a law which says that these three frigates should be built and equipped for sea, was it not necessary, before it was concluded that they should not be so built and equipped, that this law should be repealed by all the branches of the Legislature? No, say gentlemen, we can appropriate or not, according to our sovereign will and pleasure. If they possessed the power to nullify what was enacted by all the three branches of Government, it was greatly to be lamented. But if they could appropriate according to their will, they were bound to do it also according to their consciences too. It was not only a weapon, but a shield, which it was their duty to use with great caution, and according to law; for, if they were to use it contrarily, it would be to make that House the supreme power, it would be to usurp the supreme authority.

Mr. Coit believed the only real question before them was, what sum they would appropriate for this object; he wished the mover would consent to leave the item blank.

Mr. W. Smith had no objection to its being left blank.

Mr. Venable said, if this was a mere question of expense, it was very extraordinary that it should have called forth such a philippic from the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Ames,) who had charged the House with arrogating to itself all the powers of Government; as being omnipotent. Upon what ground could he found such charges? If it were a question of expense merely, there could certainly be no ground for such charges; but if it were to be considered as a question of power, if they were to be told they dared not to withhold the appropriation in question, here he would intrench himself as a Representative of the people; he had a right, as a member of that House, to vote against the expense which he thought improper, and he would exercise that right. Every branch of Government had the same right, and he wished them to exercise it. And he would not be told, when he was about to exercise this right, that he was arrogating to himself all the powers of Government. He was determined to exercise his discretion on every question which came before him for decision, and he would vote against this expense.

Mr. Nicholas said, the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Ames) seldom spoke without casting some denunciation against that House. He had, however, allowed that the President had done, with respect to this fleet, all that any gentleman had charged him with doing; he had even put the case stronger than any other person had put it; for he had said that the Executive had determined to build the vessels of a larger size than had been contemplated by the Legislature, in order to be an overmatch for any other frigate. All this, said Mr. N., may be right, and the approbation he gave this conduct, was a proof the gentleman thought so; all he had to say was, that it was not legal; it might be patriotic, and be done with an intention to serve the country; the President might understand the interests of the country better than they; but it was a conduct which would not meet with the same approbation from him that it met with from the gentleman from Massachusetts. That gentleman had also said that a law imposed a duty upon the House to find the means for carrying it into effect. Were they not, then, to be called upon for money to man the frigates? He asked those gentlemen whether the President had not a right to man the frigates, and if so, whether they should not be obliged to find the money?

The powers of this House to control appropriations, had, however, already been settled. It was, indeed, an absurdity to call a body a Legislature, and at the same time deny them a control over the public purse; if this were not so, where would be the use of going through the forms of that House with a money bill? The Executive might as well draw upon the Treasury at once for whatever sums he might stand in need of. A doctrine like this would be scouted even in despotic countries.

And what was all this power that so much alarmed the gentleman from Massachusetts? It was merely a negative power to refuse to do what they thought it would be mischievous to do. Mr. N. said there was a very fashionable doctrine of throwing all power into the hands of the Executive. If there were to be extremes, however, he believed an excess of power would at least be as safe in their hands as in those of the Executive; and if this were his opinion, and the ground upon which he acted, the gentleman from Massachusetts never failed to take an opposite direction. He never thought any Executive power too great.

Mr. Parker remarked, that it had been said the frigates would carry 62 guns; it might have been possible to have made them so, but they were no more than a large sized 44-gun frigate. They might be a little larger than any other of that number of guns, but not so much. It was true they were not at first contemplated to be so large, but strong reasons were offered for making them of the present size; the expense was not increased by the increase of size, in proportion to their usefulness. He therefore himself approved of what the President had done; and, if he had had the management of the business, he should have done the same. It had been doubted whether the sum proposed to be granted would not only finish, but equip and man the vessels. If the gentleman who had these doubts would refer to the report which had been made on the subject, he would find that $220,000 would be required for that purpose; the $172,000 proposed would barely make them ready for sea in other respects.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. Gallatin,) who was generally very correct in his statements, had supposed that if the frigates were finished, the President might go on to man them without consulting the Legislature upon the occasion; and, to show the possibility of doing this, he had alluded to his having built a frigate for the Algerines without the approbation of Congress. He lamented the situation in which we stood with that country, but he believed the building of the frigate was necessary. The Western insurrection, and the law-suits in London had also been named, which he should not stop to notice.

In answer to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, he would say, that if the President could man the vessels and send them to sea independent of Congress, he might also finish them without their aid; but he did not believe he would place himself in the same situation with respect to them as if he had to do with a foreign nation. In relation to foreign nations, he had great power; but, if he went beyond his power with respect to internal regulations, he would be liable to impeachment, and he would be one of the first to promote an impeachment, were such to be his conduct.

Mr. Ames said, he understood the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Nicholas) to say, that the conduct of the Executive was illegal; but certainly if a frigate was estimated to cost $12,000 and it cost $15,000, the expenditure of the additional $3,000 was not illegal.

Mr. Nicholas said, he had made use of the gentleman's own words with respect to the change in the plan of building the frigates, which he had called illegal.

Mr. Ames said, as to the size of the vessels, that was Executive business. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Venable) seemed to take the observation which he had made with a degree of sensibility perfectly natural, because it went to touch the power which he had claimed as a member of that House. The gentleman said, "Here I intrench myself behind my privileges." Nothing was said about the public good; all was self.

And was it to be considered, he asked, that they enjoyed the powers committed to them in their own right, as barons of empire, as sovereign despots? Or was the power placed in them to be exercised like other duties, according to justice and propriety? He believed no one would deny that the latter was the truth.

How did the matter stand? They had attempted to repeal a law, but another branch of the Legislature had refused to accede to the repeal; of course it could not be effected. Were they then to act as if the law had been repealed? Yes, say gentlemen, we will refuse to appropriate the money since we think the thing unnecessary. He hoped, however, the day would soon come (as melancholy would be the period until it did arrive) when this power of refusing an appropriation to carry an existing law into effect, should no longer be countenanced by a majority of that House.

Mr. Venable was of opinion, that if the gentleman from Massachusetts had only the public good in view, which he had spoken of, he could have had no inducement to have gone into the arguments which he had introduced on this occasion. He could assure that gentleman that he felt himself as strongly bound to consider the public good in all his conduct as he could be. He believed no instance could be named in which he had not consulted that interest. As to what was, or was not, calculated for the public good, he must be left at liberty to judge for himself. But the gentleman had not put the business on this ground, but because gentlemen differed in opinion from others, they were charged with assuming absolute authority, with principles of despotism, overturning the Government, &c.

Mr. V. said, it was his opinion, that in all laws which came before that House, every member had a full right to say yea or nay, for which they were not accountable to that gentleman, or to any other. The other branches of Government had also the same power. Indeed, the other House had exercised this right in negativing the repeal of the law relative to the manning of these vessels. He trusted both Houses would always continue to assert their right thus to use their discretion and privilege.

Mr. Ames said, he had not charged that House with usurping power, or breaking down the other branches of Government; nor did he say they had not a discretion; but that their discretion ought to be regulated by duty.

Mr. Swanwick said, amidst all the foreign objections which had been urged against this appropriation, he wished the act passed last session to be referred to. [Mr. S. read an extract from it.] Here, in April last, said he, it is provided that the frigates shall be finished, and yet now gentlemen wished the House to come to a conclusion only to half finish them. What, he asked, would the world think of such a versatility of conduct?

Mr. Kitchell thought, if they meant to get through the business which lay before them, it was time they disposed of this question. He thought the debate upon it had been sufficiently long.

Mr. Brent said, when this subject first came before the committee, he had determined to give the sum necessary to complete them; nor had he ever wavered on the subject, until he heard the ground which had been taken by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Ames.) He did most feelingly participate in the sentiments expressed by his colleague (Mr. Venable) on the occasion. It was really difficult to know what was the amount of his doctrines. In the first instance, he understood the gentleman to rise for two purposes, viz: to justify the Executive from certain charges which had been brought against him, and to show the obligation which the House lay under to grant the money.

In the first place, the gentleman said the Executive had been charged with violating the law; and, when he went into the subject, he understood him to say, as his colleague understood him, that the Executive had changed the plan; he understood him to say, that though Congress had ordered 44-gun frigates, he had ordered 74's, which remark he concluded by expressing his approbation of the President's conduct. If he admitted that the Executive had violated the law, and yet felicitated him upon having done so, he might enjoy his pleasure, he would not participate with him.

With respect to the second part of his observations, as to the absolute necessity under which every member lay to vote for the sum required for finishing the frigates, because the building of them was directed by law, this was a most important point. He thought this involved one of the most valuable principles which that House possessed, and which should never be lost sight of, viz: the right of every member to exercise his discretion upon every question, appropriations as well as others, which came before him. Did not the gentleman know that the most solemn decision had taken place last session on this subject, by a large majority? Indeed, said he, this sentiment was so ingrafted in the constitution that the House could not divest themselves of it; for the gentleman to say they did not possess it, was to make a dead letter of their privileges. There could be no doubt on the subject; and it was a sacred and essential principle which would go further to preserve our liberties than any other which they possessed. He trusted, therefore, they should guard it with special care.

Mr. Gallatin said, he did not mean to follow the gentleman from Massachusetts in what he had said on this subject, because he had not felt the force of what he had advanced, nor very well understood what he meant. Both his meaning and his motive for bringing this subject before them to-day were to him mysterious. He had brought before them the Treaty question anew, and it would be recollected what were the feelings of the House on that occasion; but he could see no relation which it bore to the present question; and though a number of members in that House had asserted that they were bound to appropriate money to carry a treaty into effect, he did not believe they were ready to say the same with respect to laws.

The gentleman from Massachusetts had said, that if they put a meaning upon the constitution in this respect different from him, that they arrogated the supreme power to themselves. Did not he know that the doctrine applied to the Senate as well as to that House? and did he not see that that would be a check upon the abuse of it in either House, since it was a weapon which both could use?

The gentleman had said they were bound to obey the law. Bound to obey what law? The law for authorizing the building of the three frigates? He did not understand how this law was to bind them. This was a mere administrative law, which did not extend to the citizens of the United States, but gave power to the President to do a certain act; therefore, as citizens, they had nothing to do with that law, except they were to obey it by appropriating the money necessary to carry it into effect. Yet the gentleman allowed there might be cases in which it would be right to use discretion in the appropriation of money. For his part, he did not understand the being bound and not bound at the same time; to have discretion and no discretion. He wished either that the one or the other opinion might be adopted; and that they might be told that they had, or that they had not, a right to exercise discretion in the appropriation of money. If this exercise were to be allowed in any case, why could it not be allowed in the present? He wondered, therefore, that gentlemen in favor of this motion should have touched upon this ground. He agreed with the gentleman that they had this discretion, and that it ought to be used with caution, and not upon trifling occasions. But he conceived this to be one of those occasions in which it was necessary for those opposed to a Naval Establishment, to vote against this appropriation. He meant against the appropriation in its extent. It was because he considered a Naval Establishment as highly injurious to the interests of this country, he should vote against every measure which had a tendency to produce it. That gentleman, and others who thought differently, would vote accordingly.

Mr. G. moved an amendment, viz: that before the word "frigates," to add "the hulls of." On the question, ayes 45, noes 44—the Chairman giving his vote against the amendment, it was not carried. It was then put in the original form, to finish the frigates, the sum of —— dollars, and carried—ayes 54.

The question on the blank being filled with $172,000 was then put, and carried—ayes 47.

Mr. Gallatin moved to add an item to pay the bounty of one hundred dollars which they had agreed should be paid to every officer discharged from the military service in consequence of the regulations which had taken place in the establishment.

This item was filled up with three thousand dollars.

Mr. Gallatin moved to add the following words: "which several sums shall be solely applied to the objects for which they are respectively appropriated."

Mr. W. Smith wished, as much as the gentleman from Pennsylvania, to confine the expenditure to the sums appropriated; but the provision for some objects might fall short, while others might have a surplus, which he thought ought to be made use of to supply deficiencies in cases of emergency. Ever since the establishment of the present Government, the whole appropriation for the Military Establishment had been considered as an aggregate fund out of which any of the objects of that establishment might be paid for; but the expense of each object was now to be confined to the specific appropriation. He was afraid, however well this might look in theory, it would be found very mischievous in practice. He wished the gentleman would amend his proposition by adding, "so far as may be consistent with public exigency;" this would restrict the expenditures, except in unforeseen cases of emergency, to provide for which some latitude of discretion ought to be left to the Executive.

Mr. Sitgreaves did not see the necessity or propriety of the amendment of his colleague, when the House had distributed the appropriations amongst the different objects; as the amendment, he conceived, meant nothing more than the department should not expend any more than the sum appropriated for the different items, which they had no right to do if there were no amendment. Heretofore, when appropriations were made in a mass, the Secretary of War did not feel himself bound to govern himself by the estimate which he had given in, but by particularizing the different items, the former evil was corrected.

Mr. Gallatin said, if the fact was exactly as it had been stated by his colleague, his amendment might be unnecessary, but the Treasury Department had not acted upon the principle which he had stated. They had, notwithstanding the distribution of the appropriation, thought themselves at liberty to take the money from an item where there was a surplus, and apply it to another, where it was wanted. And when this was objected to, as taking from the Legislature their appropriating power, they answered that the Legislature had entered so much into detail that they could not attend to their directions. They had, last session, made the appropriations more specific than at present, yet the Secretary of the Treasury, in a letter written to the House during this session, said, "that it was well known to have been a rule since the establishment of the Government, that the appropriations for the Military Establishment were considered as general grants of money, liable to be issued to any of the objects included under that department." Therefore, unless this amendment was introduced, it would leave the power as before. In order to make the business more easy, all the contingent expenses were appropriated in one sum.

The object of this amendment, said Mr. G., was that no part of the pay of the Army should go to the Quartermaster's Department, &c., and that none of them should go to the building or equipping the frigates; but if this were not the case, money might be found to get the frigates to sea from the appropriations for the Military Department, if the President should think it necessary so to apply it. As to the amendment, it would do away the intention of it altogether.

Mr. Harper was against the amendment. He thought the Department ought to be at liberty, in case of an appropriation proving deficient, to have recourse to other funds where there might be a surplus, and as none would be taken, except where there was a surplus, he could see no objection to this being allowed. Indeed, for want of such a privilege very serious inconveniences might arise to the service, in case of accident or unforeseen events.

Mr. Gallatin said, the law did not operate in the manner which the gentleman last up supposed. They had lately voted a sum of forty thousand dollars to make good a deficiency of last year, which had been used for some other purpose; in consequence the deficiency fell upon the pay of the Army, although that could not increase, because the number of men was never increased; it might be less, as the nominal, not the actual number of men was appropriated for.

Mr. Kittera thought the amendment a bad one. Suppose, said he, a boat should be overset with tents in the lake, or a magazine blown up, the losses could not be repaired, because, though there might be surplus sums in the Treasury from other items in the establishment, yet, if this amendment prevailed, they could not be touched. He thought this would be the effect; he was against innovations.

The amendment was put and carried, there being fifty-four votes in favor of it.

The committee then rose, and the House took up the amendments.

And then the main question, "to finish the frigates —— dollars," was taken by yeas and nays, as follows:

Yeas.—Fisher Ames, Abraham Baldwin, Theophilus Bradbury, Richard Brent, Daniel Buck, Dempsey Burges, Joshua Coit, William Cooper, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, James Davenport, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, George Ege, William Findlay, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William B. Grove, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, John Heath, William Hindman, John Wilkes Kittera, Edward Livingston, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, John Milledge, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, Josiah Parker, Elisha R. Potter, John Read, Samuel Sewall, Samuel Sitgreaves, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, William Smith, Thomas Sprigg, John Swanwick, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, John A. Van Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.

Nays.—Theodorus Bailey, David Bard, Thomas Blount, Nathan Bryan, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, Isaac Coles, Jesse Franklin, Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, Wade Hampton, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Patton, John Richards, Israel Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., William Strudwick, and Abraham Venable.

The question to fill the blank with $178,000 was then put and carried—ayes 47, noes 42, and the bill ordered for a third reading to-morrow.

Friday, March 3.

Call for Statements.

Mr. Gallatin said, he wished to propose to the House three resolutions, calling for statements relative to the War Department, which he wished to be laid before the House at the next session. They had heard it said upon that floor, by gentlemen who were considered to be well acquainted with the subject, that many expenses had taken place in that Department which ought to have been checked. Conceiving a check of this kind to be necessary, and knowing the expense of the Military Department was increasing from year to year, beyond what the increase in the number of troops would warrant, it was proper to lay the foundation of an inquiry into the subject. Indeed, having just passed a pretty severe law relative to the Receivers of Public Money, and understanding that the Secretary of the Treasury had a long list of delinquents, he was desirous of taking some steps in the business. From these considerations, he offered the following resolutions for acceptance:

"Resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed to lay before the House of Representatives, within the first week of January next, abstracts of the accounts of all paymasters, quartermasters, contractors, agents for the purchase of supplies, and generally of all the Receivers of Public Moneys, paid from the Treasury from the 1st of January, 1791, to the 1st of January, 1797, on account of the Military Establishment, so as to exhibit a detailed statement of the whole amount of moneys thus expended to that period; and whether any of the accounts be not finally settled; and shall lay before the House an estimate of moneys not accounted for.

"Resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed to lay, at the same time, before the House of Representatives similar abstracts of the accounts of all the Receivers of Public Money expended for the building of the frigates.

"Resolved, That it shall be the duty of the Secretary of the Treasury to lay before the House of Representatives, within the last week of January in each year, a statement of money expended for the Military Establishment during the next preceding year, distinguishing the sums expended under each head, for which specific appropriations have been made, and an estimate of the probable unsettled demands in relation to each of those heads."

The resolutions were severally agreed to.

Evening Session.

Military and Naval Appropriations.

The bill appropriating money for the Military and Naval Establishments, was received from the Senate with an amendment, proposing to do away the restriction which had been introduced into the bill to confine the expenditure of money to the specific objects for which each sum is appropriated.

Mr. Dana hoped the House would recede from the amendment.

Mr. Gallatin said that, by the constitution, no money was to be granted but by a law passed in the regular mode. Now, said Mr. G., this is not by law, if, after a certain sum is granted for one item, it be not used for that purpose, but put to some other object. This was certainly according to the spirit of the constitution, and if you do not strictly abide by that, you may as well set aside the constitution, and say we will appropriate $6,000,000 for the support of Government for the present year. If we mean to carry the constitution into effect we must reject the amendment.

Mr. Sitgreaves observed, that his opinion on this point was, that the House had a constitutional power to depart from any identifying of articles to sums granted, and that departure grew out of necessity; for the extreme embarrassment which would attend the practice of a strict adherence, would render it impracticable. But, as he did not mean to stand responsible for the motion, he should be satisfied with calling for the yeas and nays; which were agreed to be taken.

Mr. Nicholas thought, that when gentlemen went on supporting such unlimited measures as had lately taken place, and voting such a waste of money, it would be very dangerous. When we see large sums voted for an army and navy in time of peace, said he, it would justify us in adopting some regulation to prevent it. The difference between the operation of this and the other mode is, that in this you confine your public officers to the identical object for which a sum is appropriated; otherwise they might use what they would call overplus money for any object they might think fit. According to this method, proposed by the Senate, any sum may be taken from any certain object, and placed to any other, which Mr. N. thought too unbounded a power to be placed in the Executive.

Mr. Parker said, he would not pretend to justify the expenditure on the Military Establishment, but he could not help observing that the casualties to which the forage and clothing, &c., which is transported to our garrisons, are exposed, are very great. Though at peace with the Indians, it is but a temporary one, and we cannot be sure they will not intercept our stores; besides other accidents to which it is exposed, all which make it necessary that the hands of the Executive should not be tied from using the surplusage of some, for the accidental and unforeseen deficiencies of others; without this the Army may be exposed to the most poignant distress, owing to a deficiency in the appropriation, while the Treasury has money in hand as surplus from other objects. Considering the great importance of an appropriation, he hoped gentlemen would not so incline to oppose the bill, especially, said he, when our existence will not, as a Legislative body, be more than four hours, and, in that time, it must pass other authorities before it can be put into effect; if it is lost, the effects will be bad. Mr. P. said he had as many scruples as any gentleman, and would take every measure to preserve the constitution inviolate, but he should be sorry if, under the fear of offending it, the Government should be stopped.

Mr. Heath.—If my existence was to be but for one moment, I would stand here and oppose this resolution; to let it pass, is precluding the freedom of inquiry into the conduct of our public officers. If we were to commence this loose kind of a way of appropriating, we may go on to do this, that, and the other, until we were too far to stop. Were we to indulge ourselves to go into the wide fields of accident, we might suppose this and that, but our imaginations would have no end. He lamented the shortness of the time they had to discuss it.

Mr. Gilbert acknowledged this was the age of reason, but he was sorry the House should be inclined to adopt an entire new doctrine of privileges. We should not hazard a new position, when it may be attended with the greatest danger; therefore he hoped they would agree with the Senate.

Mr. Harper thought it would not be very difficult to convince gentlemen who oppose it, that the amendment was calculated to secure the very object they wished. It was not a violation of the constitution, as some gentlemen supposed. He would ask, could not an appropriation be made for the use of the Military Establishment in general terms? Yes, he would answer; else how could an appropriation in general terms have been made for the intercourse with foreign nations? Certainly it could not be unconstitutional to appropriate the overplus of one article to supply the deficiency of another. One moment's reflection, Mr. H. thought, would convince members of the error of a contrary opinion. It might not be safe to do it without law, but here is a law allowing it. The whole must suffer if the War Department is deficient, which cannot be avoided if one is not to assist another branch, for it is scarce possible to guard against every contingency. He thought the amendment beneficial in the highest degree, and without it, would stop the War Department in its operations. He hoped no delay would take place, as it endangered the bill.

Mr. Varnum said, that notwithstanding all that gentlemen might produce to prove the necessity of giving the Executive large powers, yet it was dangerous; he instanced that, if the Executive were determined to man and equip the frigates for sea, they would have power to do it from money appropriated, and intended for other purposes; thus it was transferring a power, solely vested in the Legislature, into the Executive Department. He thought it was an infringement on the constitution; it was putting the power where it never was intended to be; although he had great respect for that department, yet he did not wish to see its powers extended too far. A gentleman had intimated he should not wish the bill to be altered, if he was sure there would not be war with the Indians. He would answer that there could not be a war until the Legislature met again.

Mr. V. said, that there was one-fifth more money appropriated than could be used before the next meeting of Congress, for there would be two months of the present year's appropriation, during any part of which another bill might be passed.

Mr. Swanwick thought there was no danger of the bill being lost; it was necessary to discuss a principle which appeared to admit of danger; it was throwing the whole of the money to the mercy of the Treasury Department.

Mr. Page said he should vote for the amendment, but he rose to express his disapprobation of it, and he should have been glad if there was time to make another bill. We must either suffer the community to abide under great disadvantages, or ourselves. If they could exist, politically, he said he should be happy to destroy that bill. He must acknowledge that it was crammed down his throat.

Mr. Livingston said, that the reasons urged by the gentleman from Massachusetts, instead of the end he proposed, would have a contrary effect. Mr. L. believed that this amendment had a tendency to lessen the privileges of the House; believing this, no object of convenience, no view to the general opinion, should ever prevent him voting against it. He believed it pregnant with mischief. The Civil and Military Departments would be too easily connected; if the one wanted assistance, while the Treasury had money in hand it would be supplied. He thought the House had voted sufficient to answer every purpose intended, and he believed, whatever specious arguments may be used, the House would not recede. If any evil attended, he was willing to take his part of the blame; but he was not apprehensive of any.

Mr. W. Lyman hoped it would not pass, as it was full of danger and bad principles.

Mr. W. Smith said, the appropriation to the Military Establishment had always been considered a general grant of money; therefore it would introduce no new principles, but the manner of this bill, passed in this House the day before the close of the session, and sent up to the Senate the very day of the adjournment.

Mr. S. said gentlemen talked about the constitution, but he thought they had wrong ideas of the evils of this business: it was not whether they gave too much power to their officers, but the Military Establishment could not go on; then the President would be obliged to alarm the whole nation, and incur a vast expense to get the Congress together, and all for want of due time and regulations: and now we must cram it down the throats of the Senate. Surely gentlemen should have some moderation, and not be so hightoned as to prevent any other branch of the Legislature from exercising their powers as well as us.

On the question being taken to concur with this amendment, the yeas and nays stood, 38 to 52, as follows:

Yeas.—Theophilus Bradbury, Daniel Buck, Dempsey Burges, Joshua Coit, Wm. Cooper, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, James Davenport, George Dent, George Ege, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, Robert Goodloe Harper, Thomas Hartley, William Hindman, John Wilkes Kittera, George Leonard, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, John Page, Josiah Parker, Samuel Sewall, Samuel Sitgreaves, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, William Smith, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, John E. Van Allen, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.

Nays.—Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Thomas Blount, Richard Brent, Nathan Bryan, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, Isaac Coles, Henry Dearborn, William Findlay, Jesse Franklin, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, Wade Hampton, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, John Heath, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson, Edward Livingston, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, John Milledge, Andrew Moore, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Patten, Elisha R. Potter, John Read, John Richards, Robert Rutherford, John S. Sherburne, Thompson J. Skinner, Richard Sprigg, jr., Thomas Sprigg, William Strudwick, John Swanwick, Joseph B. Varnum, Abraham Venable, and Richard Winn.

The bill was again sent to the Senate, and was soon after returned with the amendment receded from.

General Lafayette.

Mr. Harper moved that a resolution, which he laid on the table yesterday, respecting Major General Lafayette, should be taken up for consideration. The motion was seconded by Mr. W. Smith. The resolution was in the following words:

"This House, strongly impressed with a just sense of the important and disinterested services rendered to their country during the late war by their fellow-citizen, Major General Lafayette, and deeply regretting the sufferings to which he is now subjected from a long and rigorous imprisonment, and which have equally excited their sympathy, and the ardent wish of their constituents for his deliverance, do resolve that the President of the United States be informed, that this House will see with the highest satisfaction, any measures which he may deem expedient to adopt towards effecting the restoration of their said fellow-citizen to liberty."

The question was taken for the House to take it up, and lost—ayes 32, noes 52.

Mr. Livingston said he had some time been wishing to put forward something similar; he really hoped some negotiation would be carried on to effect his liberation. It would be honorable to this country to interpose in behalf of this man, who has a claim on American service. While suffering for us on his part, let gratitude, and every feeling that can affect the heart, be ours. Abandoned by his own country, and to increase his sufferings, precluded from almost every enjoyment of life, it would be honorable in us to interest ourselves in his behalf, appropriating some small sum which may enable the President to make some progress towards his releasement. Thus, while it is honorable to America, if it has no effect, it may afford some comfort to the unfortunate sufferer, to think he is not forgotten. He then proposed a resolution, not materially varying from that just offered by Mr. Harper, hoping that the little variation would prevent it suffering a similar fate.

Mr. Parker said, as it was a personal question, he hoped it would lie on the table.

Mr. Coit thought it a delicate question, and one which ought not to be agitated, and therefore moved the previous question.

Mr. Hartley spoke of Mr. Parker's observing its personality. He answered that the man suffered much for this country, and therefore was entitled to regard. He acknowledged with Mr. Coit, that there was much delicacy in the business, and therefore hoped it would speedily be discussed; it ought not be postponed; the man is now suffering in a most distressing confinement. If any of the soldiers of 1789 were here with whom he was in council, there would not be a dissenting voice to using every exertion. He hoped the House would never forget such brilliant services.

Mr. Swanwick said, there need not be a dissenting voice, but we ought to be cautious how we multiply our negotiations, as this could not be done without entering into a negotiation with the Emperor of Germany in the regular way. It is not want of respect that should prevent us, but are we provided to go into all the consequences attending a new negotiation? There is a delicacy in it, of which we ought to be careful. There is not the least doubt but the President has as much desire for his release as any gentleman, but he, no doubt, deliberated, and saw the danger of it. Mr. S. said he lamented our foreign negotiations in toto. There was no good derived from them, and he could not anticipate any from new ones.

Mr. Nicholas said, he felt as much disposition to take measures for his release as any man, but he thought the business undertaken too hastily. Suppose you give instructions to the President, and he does not think proper to act on it, so far from being a compliment to Lafayette, it would hurt his mind, should he hear it had been agitated.

Mr. Claiborne saw no difficulty attending the resolution. He hoped the House would render this essential service to the unfortunate sufferer, if even in the last hour of the Congress.

Mr. Christie said, it was an improper time to take up the resolution, but as they had to sit there two or three hours longer and no business to do, this might as well occupy the attention of the House as not.

Mr. Livingston would be sorry to impose a burden upon the country, but he thought this a duty incumbent on them. He hoped gentlemen would openly come forward and avow their sentiments, and not shelter themselves under the previous question. Remember, he came here from the pompous ease of a foreign court; he voluntarily served the cause of America, and bled for her; he, in a great measure, procured the interest which formed the alliance with France in our defence; besides spending a princely fortune in our cause, he asked nothing, nor would accept any compensation for his services: and now he is abandoned to the most dreadful situation possible; some of that compensation, justly due to his services, is refused him as a balm to his former woes by not attempting his release. This is the situation of the man for whom this House is asked only to express their desire for his comfort; this is the man who was met with pleasure in every part of the United States; all the people rejoiced to express their gratitude to him; he was accompanied with testimonials of admiration and thanks from the whole Continent: and now we should not say that we will feel with pleasure measures taken towards obtaining his liberty! We can pity him, and regret his situation, but refuse to lend him the least assistance to soothe his distress. We do not call upon the House to vent its infantine sorrow, to show its womanish pity. No. We call on it to express a will, predominant throughout the United States, in the behalf of this unfortunate man. But it is said that we should get the ill will of the nations who persecuted him. Unless they bid adieu to all the tender feelings of humanity, they never can take offence. It has been also supposed it would be ineffectual; he had no doubt but the Executive would take those measures which would be most effectual and least endangering to the nation; it could not make the situation of the sufferer worse, and if we succeed in procuring his liberty, it would give pleasure to every heart who can sympathize with the distressed, or feel gratitude for high obligations: and if it does not have that happy effect, still we may feel consolation at having done our duty. If these measures were taken, it would illuminate the loathsome horrors of a dungeon the most dreadful; it would sweep away the reproach "that Republicans know no gratitude;" that we, who had his best exertions whilst in prosperity, do not forget him in adversity. Mr. L. said he really believed that if he had not known the principles of liberty here, and helped us in our struggle for it, he would have never existed in misery in the dungeon at Olmutz, and therefore the highest obligations were laid on the United States to exert herself in his behalf.

Mr. Heath hoped, that, although the gentleman had labored to excite the pathetic, yet he would not charge the House with a want of Republicanism if the measure was not adopted. Mr. H. thought it extremely improper to be introduced in the House. He said the President knew the will of the United States on the subject, and therefore, if he saw proper, he could take it up. He hoped the gentleman would remember this was a complicated case; for, since he had left this country, he had become a citizen of another country. Mr. H. said he felt for his unfortunate situation: he had fought under his banner. We are not to be charged with a want of patriotism and feeling for this suffering hero, because we think it imprudent to interest and involve ourselves in his behalf, merely to indulge the flighty fancy of a few individuals. We might go, said he, and address the President to exert himself as far as he saw proper in his behalf, as a body of individuals, but not as a Legislature.

Mr. W. Smith could see no kind of impropriety in the measure. It had been said it was a new subject, and, therefore, ought not to be taken up now; but it was not introduced yesterday! Did gentlemen want an age to express an opinion which every member feels—which the whole nation feels? The motion only went to express a wish that measures may be taken according to the judgment of the Executive: if he had a thought or wish to adopt measures, this would encourage him to carry them into effect. Europe might feel a pleasure that we interested ourselves in his behalf. Did he not embark his all for this country? It has been well said, said Mr. S., that if the motion had been made in 1779 or 1780, no previous question would then have been called—no opposition then made. Read the journals of the National Representation for 1780 and 1783: there we find one member from each State was appointed to take leave of him in behalf of the whole. [Mr. S. here read the journals of that time, which insert at length the proceeding, address, and answer, attending the transaction.] There, said he, they expressed their zeal for his future welfare, and gratitude for his favors, accompanying it with a letter to the French King, requesting him to bestow his favors upon him. From the frequent respectful mention made of his services on the journals of the House, there appears to have been much attention paid to his services by Congress. Even the Parliament of Great Britain, he said, had discussed the question of his confinement; and should this House refuse, who are so much obliged by his services? Nothing that had been said, in opposition to it, could convince him but that we were called upon, by every tie of gratitude, to adopt the measure. The satisfaction of knowing that his services are not forgotten may render him more comfortable in his dungeon—may follow him into the deserts of Siberia, or wherever the cruel hand of oppression may send him.

Mr. Madison did not think there was time to do all the business requisite to render due justice to the motion, and he hoped the House would do more than was intended by the motion. He believed the only regular mode would be to appoint a committee to bring in a bill. He therefore moved that the House go into committee for that purpose.

Mr. Sitgreaves said, according to the motion there was no necessity for this mode, as it was of a nature not to require the aid of another branch of the Legislature; it was quite sufficient if the House passed the resolution. He was sorry to hear the previous question called for to get rid of the subject, but he hoped it would not prevail: he thought this motion required early attention. He said attention was due to Lafayette; America was highly indebted to him. It is a debt of justice, and ought to be paid; and while this House delays to interpose in his behalf he must remain in confinement. Those gentlemen who thought the House ought to interpose should think this is the very time, if any good is intended to be done: he therefore hoped they would not delay.

Mr. Harper said, if the subject was on the sending an ambassador to negotiate for the liberation of this man, it might with more propriety be opposed. He was surprised that any gentleman in the House should be opposed to expressing a wish for measures to be taken which may prove effectual for that purpose.

When he had no need of our caresses, the United States resounded with his name: he was then met with tokens of respect and congratulation wherever he went. But now, pining under the cruel hand of despotic vengeance in a loathsome dungeon, weighed down by chains, with a scanty allowance; when we view his present, contrasted with his past, situation—embarking from the magnificent splendor of a French court, displeasing his sovereign—embarking himself, and hazarding every thing that was dear to him, in support of American liberty—is this the man, Mr. H. would ask, to whom America said, he should never cease to have her best wishes and endeavors for his good, when, in the most grievous captivity, we refuse to express a desire for a morsel of comfort to his depressed mind! What avail our toasts—our boasted recollections of him, and regret at his fate—if we take not every opportunity to alleviate that distress? But the worst of his misfortunes is not to lie in a dungeon: he is now racked with a fear of being sent into the inhospitable deserts of Siberia, whence is no hope ever to expect his return into the civilized world; and, with this unwelcome intelligence, the American Legislature refuses to express a wish for his deliverance! Who knows but the power in whose custody he is may expect America to interest herself in his favor? And by a pretext like this he might be liberated, or at least his fear of removal dissipated, and his present misery alleviated. Mr. H. said he was sure it would be highly gratifying to the citizens of America to hear of the measure; they had long expected it, and, if undertaken, he had the greatest hopes of its success, in a measure. If it should but tend to soften his present distress, it would be a happiness; but if its effects should be to restore to liberty one to whom America is so much indebted, it would amply repay whatsoever trouble is taken towards its accomplishment.

Mr. W. Lyman did not doubt of the services of the Marquis Lafayette; he was always the subject of adoration and the toast of this country. Besides, it has made him liberal grants for his services, and he thought there could be no proof that we were wanting in marks of esteem for him. With respect to the motion, Mr. L. asked, to whom was application to be made? Does any gentleman on this floor know who confined him, or by order of what government? No court are willing to avow it. Britain, France, and Prussia disavow it, and he believed the Emperor also. Until that was clear, the measure would be improper. May not the agitation of such a question in the House awaken a jealousy in some of those powers towards us, which may militate to our injury, and injure the man whom the attempt is meant to serve? Gentlemen have depicted his sufferings in very lively colors, said Mr. L., and were it in my power, or were it consistently in the power of the House, I should be very happy to afford relief. Until some of the difficulties in its way were cleared, he said, he should be forced to put his negative to it. He thought gentlemen who saw the matter so necessary, and the way so clear, had reason to reproach themselves for letting it sleep so long, and for having introduced it at the last hour of the session of the Houses.