FOURTH CONGRESS.—SECOND SESSION. (continued 3)

Mr. Swanwick said it was intended to prevent both evils. It was intended to prevent their being stolen from their masters; and, also, to prevent the power of the master taking them to the other States to sell them. This measure, he thought, would prevent both. The State of Maryland had taken measures to prevent it themselves; they had made it a heavy penalty to take a negro out of the State; but that is not effectual to prevent the evil now complained of. This was meant to prevent the practice of examining ships before they sailed and when they arrived.

Mr. W. Smith wished the committee to rise; not with a view of recommitting the report, but to get rid of the business altogether. The subject, he said, involved many serious questions; it required very serious consideration, and he wished it had never come up. It was a question with him how far Congress had a right to meddle with it at all. He felt alarmed on the subject as brought from that State. He considered it as a kind of entering-wedge, as a gentleman had lately said, on another occasion. It was altogether a municipal regulation, and not at all connected with trade or commerce, and therefore ought to be left to the State Legislatures to settle. He did not think the constitution allowed that House to act in it.

Gentlemen had said, that the laws of the States took no effect on the waters. This, he thought, was founded on a mistake. The laws of the States could prevent robbery on water as well as on land, if within the jurisdiction of the United States. He hoped the committee would rise, and dismiss the subject.

Mr. Isaac Smith thought the gentleman knew not the proper meaning of the report. It was not to make a law against stealing merely, but against its being done successfully; many instances, he said, had occurred, where they had been hid many days on board the ships and taken away in the night to the West Indies, and other parts of the world to sell them. It was impossible that the existing laws of the States should prevent this fraudulent practice: the intent of this law was to prevent this practice; by being examined, and forced to take certificates along with them, it could not be easily done. The particulars of the remedy would be more readily seen when the bill was brought in; it would explain itself; it then might be modified, altered, or rejected altogether. He thought it could give no offence or cause of alarm to any gentleman; and he was sure it was no way contrary to the constitution.

Mr. Macon wished the committee to rise, and not have leave to sit again. He began to see more of the impropriety of the measure than before, and for the same reasons as the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. Smith.)

Mr. Swanwick said, this House had ascertained a certain proof, by which our seamen are known, by giving them a certificate of their citizenship, specifying their person and freedom, which had operated against impressment: and was it not equally necessary, and would it not be equally competent, to protect a man from injuries to which his color has exposed him? Our unfortunate negroes and mulattoes are exposed by their color to much insult. In some places, he said, they were so exposed, that color alone was evidence of slavery. He would not enter into the question, whether all ought to be free, because it was not immediately before the House; but if these people were black or white, if free, they ought to be protected in the enjoyment of their freedom, not only by State Legislatures but by the General Government.

Mr. Murray did not expect to have raised the sensibility of the gentleman last up. It really arose from his ignorance, he said. He wished to know the origin of the matter; he did not know whether it had originated in a memorial, or whether it came from the humanity of some patriotic member, unsolicited. Great and manifold evils did exist in this point; he meant to make a motion on the subject, as Maryland felt heavily from the practice. He confessed he was not sufficiently acquainted with the English language to know the proper meaning of the word kidnapping; he therefore wished to know if it extended to the object he had in view. He declared he did not wish to encourage the harboring of negroes; far from it; he wished to prevent it. He did not think the law extended far enough on that point; at present, negroes, through the influence of their own minds, or the insinuations of others, or both, frequently leave their masters, and are harbored by other persons. The law takes no notice of this, except it can be proved that the negro is some person's property, and has absconded: this is very difficult to prove; therefore great evils attend its lenity. 'Tis true, if it can be proved that the negro has absconded and was harbored, there was a very heavy penalty inflicted; but, he said, this was difficult to prove. This, he owned, was his insinuation, as the gentleman termed it; and upon this subject he meant to claim the attention of the House. This evil, he said, might arise from the false philosophy and misplaced philanthropy of the advocates of emancipation. He was ever willing to give the question a fair trial, and thought himself bound to thank the gentleman for his extreme benevolence in advocating it.

Mr. Swanwick, to satisfy the gentleman from Maryland, told him, that the subject came before the House from the State of Delaware.

Mr. W. Smith said, he did not know how far the committee should go, he should not vote for the matter to go into the committee. He said, it was that kind of business which, by the constitution, was to be left to the different States, he could not agree to the subject going any further. The observations of the gentleman from Pennsylvania had convinced him that that House ought not to interfere with the individual States on the subject; the interests and policy of the different States were so various, that it would be a dangerous thing to meddle with. He thought it an improper question for discussion; he conceived it would be sound policy not to touch it in that House. The gentleman had gone too far to make use of the word emancipation. He feared lest the use of it should spread an alarm through some of the States. It might imperceptibly lead from step to step till it ends in mischief.

Mr. Nicholas hoped the business would not be dismissed. We, said Mr. N., who reside in the Southern States, are unfortunately possessed of such a kind of property as has a considerable odium attached to it; but, if we unfortunately hold slaves, we ought not to contribute to the making slaves of free men, but I would wish to establish them in their freedom. If we can give relief as the thing exists, let it be; by all means do it, whether it incur the pleasure or displeasure of some of the slaveholders. He hoped the subject would have full investigation.

The question was then put for the committee to rise. Fifty-four members rising in the affirmative, it was carried.

Mr. Sitgreaves then moved for the Committee of the Whole to be discharged from the further consideration of the report; this, he said, was in order to make way for another motion to refer it back to the committee, to report by bill or otherwise.

The question was put, and the committee discharged.

Mr. Swanwick moved that the business be recommitted to the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures, to report by bill or otherwise.

Mr. Coit wished the subject to be postponed for further consideration before it was sent to the committee. He had doubts as to the propriety of sending it at all. He thought it had not had that discussion a subject so important required.

Mr. W. Smith said, he believed this was the first time it was considered in the House. It had been tried in a committee but never taken up by the House, and now gentlemen wished to send it back to the committee, with instructions to bring in a bill. The Committee of Commerce and Manufactures was considerably deranged since last session, when this business came before them; many new members were added, and it required more information before it could come to the conclusion prescribed.

Mr. Sitgreaves said, if any one good purpose could be derived to the House or to the gentlemen, he would not oppose it; but he was at a loss to know what good object could be attained by a delay. With respect to what had been said by the gentleman, (Mr. Smith,) that the committee were forced to bring in a bill, he was surprised that such an idea should be formed. If that committee report a bill, this House is not even pledged to pass it. When the subject is sent to the committee with that instruction, can it be conceived that committee is forced to report a bill? There is no such thing intended nor included in the words, as either this House should be pledged to pass a bill, or that the committee should report one. The object is, that the House, through the medium of the committee, should have a plan prepared for their consideration, and the word "otherwise" leaves the committee to exercise its own discretion as to the report.

The gentleman from Connecticut, with a prudence and consistency highly becoming, wishes time to think on the subject. But how is that gentleman to have foundation for his reflections until a bill is drawn? Mr. S. did not know what were the resources of that gentleman's mind, but for himself, he must own that in all the attitudes in which this subject had presented itself, he could not distinctly see the plan. One gentleman had said there was no remedy the United States could apply but what was incompatible with the laws of the individual States. Mr. S. presumed that until he saw the mode to be adopted, he could not say whether it was easy or difficult. On the whole, he thought to postpone the subject could answer no good end, while it might delay the object, and do injury.

Mr. Coit said, very probably the resources of his mind may not be equal to that gentleman's, he therefore wished the subject to be delayed that he might have time to get into the knowledge of the business.

Mr. Coit's motion for postponement was then put and carried—yeas 46, nays 30.

Hugh Lawson White.

Mr. Blount then called for the order of the day on the report of the Secretary of War on the petition of Hugh Lawson White, a soldier under General Sevier, against the Indians. The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole.

The following report from the Committee of Claims was then read:

That the claim set forth in the said petition, is intended to establish a principle that will apply to the whole of the militia which were called out under Brigadier General Sevier, in 1793, to act offensively against certain Indians south-west of the Ohio.

That the expedition against these Indians, as appears from the muster-rolls, comprehended a period of above five months, or from the 22d July to 31st December, 1793.

That it was undertaken without authority derived from the President, under the laws of the United States, and for the avowed purpose of carrying the war into the Cherokee country.

That the tenor of the instructions from the Department of War to the Governor of the South-western Territory forbade offensive operations.

Having given these facts, it may be proper to add, that it appears, by a recurrence to official papers, that the Indians had greatly perplexed and harassed by thefts and murders, the frontier inhabitants of Tennessee; and previous to the service, for which compensation is demanded, had shown themselves in considerable force, and killed at two stations (one of them within seven miles of Knoxville) fifteen persons, including women and children: that it must rest with Congress to judge how far these aggressions of Indians, and such other circumstances as can be adduced to the parties, constitute a case of imminent danger, or the expedition a just and necessary measure.

Mr. A. Jackson[5] said, by a recurrence to the papers just read, he doubted not it would appear evident, that the measures pursued on the occasion alluded to were both just and necessary. When it was seen that war was waged upon the State, that the knife and the tomahawk were held over the heads of women and children, that peaceable citizens were murdered, it was time to make resistance. Some of the assertions of the Secretary at War, he said, were not founded in fact; particularly with respect to the expedition being undertaken for the avowed purpose of carrying the war into the Cherokee country; indeed they were contradicted by a reference to General Smith's letter to the Secretary of War. He trusted it would not be presuming too much, when he said, from being an inhabitant of the country, he had some knowledge of this business. From June to the end of October, he said, the militia acted entirely on the defensive, when twelve hundred Indians came upon them and carried their station, and threatened to carry the seat of Government. In such a state, said Mr. J., would the Secretary (upon whom the Executive power rested, in the absence of the Governor) have been justified, had he not adopted the measure he did of pursuing the enemy? He believed he would not; that the expedition was just and necessary, and that, therefore, the claim of Mr. White ought to be granted.

He therefore proposed a resolution to the following effect:

"Resolved, That General Sevier's expedition into the Cherokee Nation, in the year 1793, was a just and necessary measure, and that provision ought to be made by law for paying the expenses thereof."

Mr. Harper said, this appeared to be a subject of considerable importance; he hoped the resolution would, for the present, lie on the table. He therefore moved that the committee rise and ask leave to sit again.

Mr. Coit said, the report wanted some more preparation before it should have come before the House; he would therefore move that it be referred to the Committee of Claims; he knew of no reason against this reference, as many reports from Heads of Departments had been so referred.

Mr. Blount hoped the motion would not prevail. The expedient of referring it to the Secretary at War was resorted to, when it first came before the House. He hoped now it would not be deferred, but decided on. He thought the Committee of Claims, from having once had it before the House, knew as much of the case as they could know, and perhaps all was included in this report.

Mr. D. Foster made the same observations in effect as Mr. Blount.

Mr. Coit said, gentlemen had not given a shadow of a reason why it should not be referred to that committee.

Mr. Jackson owned he was not very well acquainted with the rules of the House, but from the best idea he could form, it was a very circuitous way of doing business. Why now refer it to the Committee of Claims, when all the facts are stated in this report, he knew not. If this was the usual mode of doing business, he hoped it would not be referred.

Mr. W. Lyman thought, the time it was under consideration before, when referred to the Secretary at War, was the time to have thought of referring it to that committee; but now it was too late; now the House had a report before it. It appeared to him a mere formality. It looks like throwing the business out. He had not made up his mind which way he should vote, but he thought one report was sufficient; he, therefore, hoped it would come under consideration.

Mr. Blount said, when he first presented the petition, he moved it to be referred to the Committee of Claims; it was then rejected, and sent to the Secretary at War.

The Committee rose, and obtained leave to sit again.

Friday, December 30.

The Chickasaw Claims.

Alexander D. Orr, from Kentucky, appeared, and took his seat.

Mr. Andrew Jackson presented a petition of George Colbert, one of the chiefs and warriors of the Chickasaw nation of Indians, complaining of a non-performance of stipulations entered into in certain talks held with Governor Blount and other agents of the United States, in which they agreed in defensive support of each other's rights; that their nation was invaded by the red people, (the Creeks,) when they applied, according to treaty, for aid; that their brother, James Robertson, said he had no orders to send them any assistance; and that he must first have orders from their father the President of the United States. However, a detachment of volunteers under the command of Colonel Mansker, came to their aid. He asked compensation for supplies furnished to that detachment during sixty days. He said he had applied to his beloved friend the Secretary at War, who told him that Congress had set apart no money out of which it could be paid; he, therefore, applied to Congress for relief.

This petition was referred to the Committee of Claims.

Hugh Lawson White.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the petition of Hugh Lawson White.

The resolution of Mr. Andrew Jackson having been read,

Mr. Coit called for the reading of the petition upon which the report was founded. It was read.

Mr. A. Jackson said, the rations found for the troops on this expedition had already been paid for by the Secretary of War, and he could see no reasonable objection to the payment of the whole expense attending the expedition. As the troops were called out by a superior officer, they had no right to doubt his authority. Were a contrary doctrine admitted, it would strike at the very root of subordination. It would be saying to soldiers, "Before you obey the command of your superior officer, you have a right to inquire into the legality of the service upon which you are about to be employed, and, until you are satisfied, you may refuse to take the field." This, he believed, was a principle which could not be acted upon. General Sevier, Mr. J. said, was bound to obey the orders he received to undertake the expedition. The officers under him were also obliged to obey him. They went with full confidence that the United States would pay them, believing that they had appointed such officers as would not call them into the field without proper authority. If even the expedition had been unconstitutional (which he was far from believing), it ought not to affect the soldier, since he had no choice in the business, being obliged to obey his superior. Indeed, as the provisions had been paid for, and as the ration and pay-rolls were always considered a check upon each other, he hoped no objection would be made to the resolution which he had moved.

Mr. Coit said, he had called for the reading of the petition, because he could not see the connection between it and the resolution under consideration. The petition prayed for recompense for the services of the petitioner, and the men under his command, and the proper resolution would be that the prayer of it ought or might not be granted; but, instead of this, the resolution before them went to the whole troops employed in General Sevier's expedition.

Mr. A. Jackson said, by referring to the report it would be seen that the Secretary of War had stated, that to allow the prayer of this petition, would be to establish a principle that would apply to the whole of the militia in that expedition. If this petitioner's claim was a just one therefore, the present decision ought to go to the whole, as it was unnecessary for every soldier employed in that expedition, to apply personally to that House for compensation.

Mr. Rutherford observed, that the gentleman from Tennessee had set the matter in so fair a light that it was not necessary to say much more on the subject; but, as he had been acquainted with the frontier from his infancy, he would just give it as his opinion, that the expedition was a necessary one, and that the expense ought immediately to be paid. He hoped, therefore, the resolution would be agreed to unanimously.

Mr. Harper was not prepared to say, without more information than he had on the subject, that the measure was just and necessary, or the contrary. He felt disposed to think favorably of the expedition; but he thought the House should have further information before it came to any resolution on the subject. They had, it was true, a letter from General Smith, the then Secretary, but he thought this was not sufficient. He thought it would be better to refer the report and other papers to a select committee, with instructions to inquire into the necessity and propriety of the expedition, and report thereon. He hoped, therefore, the present resolution would be disagreed to, and the committee would rise. He would then bring forward a resolution to that effect. The Secretary of War, he said, had not gone fully into the subject; he had given them copies of two letters, but not his opinion. He did not think that an expedition of so important a nature, and which must involve in it a very heavy expense, should be decided upon without further information.

Mr. Craik agreed in sentiment with the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. Harper.) He said there was great difficulty in forming an opinion from the report itself; though the Secretary of War seemed to think the calling out of the Militia necessary, there were other expressions in the report which appeared to convey a contrary sentiment. He referred to the letter of General Smith, but mentioned that there were other papers. He could not say the expedition was not necessary; but he thought further information was desirable, and the report should be committed to a select committee, for the purpose of gaining that information.

Mr. W. Smith agreed with the two gentlemen last up, that further information was necessary. The question, he said, involved a number of important points. In the first place, a question was involved, whether, if the expeditions was necessary, as it was not authorized by law, the expense ought to be defrayed by the United States? By the report of the Secretary of War, it had appeared that Congress were well apprised of all the circumstances which rendered the expedition necessary, yet they did not think proper to authorize it. In the letter of the Secretary of War to Governor Blount, on the subject, was this passage:

"If those difficulties existed while the Congress were in session, and which, it was conceived, they alone were competent to remove, they recur, in the present case, with still greater force; for all the information received at the time Congress were in session, was laid before both Houses, but no order was taken thereon, nor any authority given to the President of the United States; of consequence his authority remains in the same situation it did on the commencement of the last session. It is, indeed, a serious question to plunge the nation into a war with the Southern tribes of Indians, supported as it is said they would be."

Mr. S. also read from the report "that the expedition was undertaken without authority," &c. The Secretary afterwards, indeed, stated, in his report, the disagreeable situation of the country at the time, by way of palliative; but, as Congress were possessed of these facts, and did not authorize offensive operations, it became a nice point to determine whether the expedition in question was justifiable. He would not say that such a situation of things might not occur as would justify a measure of the kind, but it was of consequence to determine whether this was such a case, which could not be done hastily. Neither had the House any information of the magnitude of the expense, whether it would be two or three hundred thousand or half a million of dollars. He should, therefore, hope the Committee of the Whole would be discharged, and that the subject would be committed to a select committee.

Mr. Madison saw no necessity for referring this subject to a select committee. If it was suggested that the official information which was before them was inaccurate, and that a more full explanation of the situation of things was necessary, there would be some ground of reference; but he did not find that this was the case. The Secretary of War stated facts, and referred to documents to prove "that the Indians had greatly perplexed and harassed, by thefts and murders, the frontier inhabitants of Tennessee, had shown themselves in considerable force, and killed at two stations fifteen persons." If this was a state of facts, and it could not be doubted, the words of the constitution on the subject were clear: "No State shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty on tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another State, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay."[6] There could be no doubt, therefore, Mr. M. said, but this expedition came within the meaning of the constitution. In many cases, he said, it was difficult to determine betwixt offensive and defensive operations, as it was sometimes necessary, when acting on the defensive, to use an offensive measure. He had no doubt on the subject, and thought the expense of the expedition should, by all means, be paid.

Mr. Dayton (the Speaker) said, that he was not prepared to adopt the resolution which was moved by the member from Tennessee, nor even to decide finally upon it, unless he could be persuaded that the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison) was correct in saying that the report before them contained all the information which it was possible for them to obtain. He was convinced that there were other official papers and documents which would throw additional light upon the subject, and therefore, ought to be in possession of the Committee of the Whole before they took any decisive step. He alluded to the confidential communications from the President, in December, 1792, which gave rise to lengthy discussion, with closed galleries, upon the measures that ought to be adopted in consequence of the hostile acts and threats of those very south-western Indians, who were the objects of the expedition for which they were called upon to pay. The House of Representatives then decided that they would neither declare war against those nations of Indians, nor authorize the President to carry an offensive expedition into their country, if, in the recess of Congress, he should deem it proper, in consequence of their continuance in hostility. As the acts of Congress upon this very application would operate in future as a precedent and kind of commentary on that part of the constitution which limited the instances in which a State might levy troops and act offensively, without the previous assent of the General Government, they could not, Mr. D. said, be too particular in their investigation, nor too strict in their reference to dates and facts. He hoped that the Committee of the Whole, would be discharged, and the report of the Secretary of War referred to a select committee, whose duty it would be to report those facts, with their dates, which gave rise to the claim in question, and which justified, under the provision in the constitution, the raising of troops and carrying on an offensive war, without the previous consent of Congress or approbation of the President.

Mr. Nicholas believed, on a reference to dates, it would be seen that these attacks of the Indians were subsequent to those which were in the knowledge of Congress at the time mentioned, as they took place while Governor Blount was at Philadelphia; and he thought no further information was necessary on the subject than the letter from General Smith to the Secretary of War, printed with the report, to prove that the expedition was both just and necessary. General Sevier's going into the Cherokee country was no proof that his operations were offensive. If other information could be obtained by referring the business to a select committee, he should have no objection; but he believed this would not be the case. He wished the letter of General Smith to be read. [It was read accordingly.]

Mr. Baldwin was not able to recollect how great a portion of the members present were in the House when this business was brought before Congress in the year 1792. His own recollection was fresh upon the subject. It was a period when they were much alarmed for our Indian frontier, North and South. The North was fortified, and it was recommended to have a legion on the South. The gentleman from South Carolina, he recollected, was opposed to the measure, and thought the Executive had determined too soon upon hostility. Mr. B. said he had at that time frequent conversations with the then Secretary of War, who informed him that he had written to the Governor of Tennessee that, in case the pressure of the Indians was so great as to require it, he must call out the militia. The Governor was well known, and sufficient confidence was placed in him that this power would not be abused. He believed the troops on the Northern frontier had not proved sufficient, and that they had already paid the expense of troops which were called in to their assistance. At this period, Mr. B. said, the danger which threatened the country was great, and it was happy for us it had been so well got over. He believed it was well that the legion for the Southern frontier was not equipped, though he at that time thought it necessary. The expense of the expedition in question, he said, would be nothing compared with that which would have taken place had the legion contemplated been equipped. Mr. B. said, he had no doubt with respect to the propriety of paying the expense of this expedition. He did not think the number of men was great, or that the charge would be very heavy.

Mr. Dayton (the Speaker) said, he was inclined to believe the attacks of the Indians, which provoked the expedition of General Sevier, were subsequent to those in the knowledge of Congress at the time the subject was under discussion.

He was one of those, he said, who thought that the hostile dispositions shown by those Indians at that time called for force, and he had introduced a resolution, by means of his colleague, to that effect. It was not, therefore, that he did not think the expedition authorized, but because he had a desire to have the facts relative to the subject clearly stated, that he wished the business to be committed to a select committee.

Mr. Rutherford said, they were not particular about the manner of doing the business, provided it was done. He was confident the expense of the expedition ought to be paid. When the Indians were upon them, what could the Governor do? Was he to send forward to the seat of Government to be instructed what to do? No; resistance was necessary, and it was not becoming in them now to say, "You did not act perfectly regular—the thing was not exactly as it should have been." It was a critical period, he said, and if the expenses were not paid, it might have a bad effect in future.

Mr. Kitchell was in favor of the committee rising. He remembered the transactions which took place on this business, as mentioned by his colleague, (Mr. Dayton.) He said, he was one of those who voted against the proposition of using hostile means, because he thought it possible to ward off the evil. It had been warded off; but he believed there was sufficient ground for calling out General Sevier, and he doubted not, if the business was referred to a select committee, the result would be satisfactory to those gentlemen who brought forward the business.

The committee rose, and leave not being granted to sit again, on motion, the report and papers accompanying it were referred to a select committee of Messrs. A. Jackson, J. Smith, Blount, Dent, and Harper.[7]

Friday, January 20, 1797.

Direct Taxes.

The House then took up the consideration of the resolution reported yesterday by the Committee of the Whole, on the subject of further revenue.

Mr. Coit wished for a division of the question, viz: that the proposition for a tax on land and that for slaves should be put separately.

Mr. Swanwick called for the yeas and nays. They were agreed to be taken.

Mr. Nicholas thought the resolution should not be divided, but that the propositions for a tax on land and a tax on slaves should go together, as he should object to vote for the tax on land except that on slaves accompanied it. He thought the gentleman had better try the question, by moving to strike out what respected slaves.

Mr. Madison thought it would be best for the two propositions to go together; but if they did not, he did not think the embarrassments insuperable. If the question was divided, those who thought a tax on slaves necessary must vote for the first part; and if the second was rejected, there would not be wanting an opportunity of voting against the tax on land. It was necessary to observe, that it had been found expedient to associate these two taxes together, in order to do justice, and to conform to the established usage of a very large tract of country, who were entitled to some degree of attention, and to whom a tax on land, without a tax on slaves, would be very objectionable.

Mr. Coit said, he could not gratify the gentleman from Virginia by varying his motion, as it would not answer the purpose he had in view.

Mr. Nicholas supposed, if the motion was persisted in, he was at liberty to move to insert slaves in the first part of the resolution. The gentleman certainly knew his own views best; or he thought it was possible to have settled the business he proposed.

Mr. W. Smith saw no difficulty on the subject. Gentlemen would vote for the first part of the resolution, in hopes that the second would pass; but if it did not pass, they would have an opportunity of voting on the main question, and thereby defeat the whole.

Mr. Van Cortlandt would vote for both together, but not separately.

Mr. Gallatin inquired as to a point of order, whether, if the first part of the resolution was carried, and the second negatived, the question would not then be taken upon the resolution as amended?

The Speaker answered in the affirmative.

Mr. Williams said, it would save time if the question was taken upon the whole resolution together; for if several gentlemen voted against the first proposition, lest the last should not pass, the whole might in this way be defeated. He thought a vote might be safely taken upon the whole together, as no one would be bound by the vote in favor of the bill, if he should not approve of it. For his own part, he wished to see the plan, though he did not know that he should vote for it.

Mr. Nicholas supposed there was not the difficulty mentioned by the gentleman from New York. Gentlemen would not risk the whole by voting against the first part of the resolution; since, if the second was not carried, they could afterwards reject the whole.

The question was then put, that the House agree to the first resolution, viz:

"Resolved, That there ought to be appropriated, according to the last census, on the several States, the sum of——, to be raised by the following direct taxes, viz:

"A tax ad valorem, under proper regulations and exceptions, on all lands, with their improvements, including town lots, with the buildings thereon."

It was resolved in the affirmative—yeas 48, nays 39.

The second part of the resolution, relative to slaves, was about to be put, when

Mr. Gallatin said, before the question was taken on this division, he would just mention why this species of personal property was brought under view, whilst all other personal property was unnoticed.

It was very true, that stock upon a farm in the Northern and Eastern States paid nearly as great a proportion of the taxes of those States as the negroes did those of the Southern States, and therefore it might seem somewhat wrong to introduce negroes in the one case and not cattle in the other. The reason which induced the Committee of Ways and Means to adopt this mode was, that negroes are confined to certain spots of land in the Southern States, while horses and cattle extend nearly over a whole country. And a land tax, unaccompanied with a tax on slaves, would be very unpopular in those States, as it would throw too great a burden upon farmers who did not hold slaves, and fall too lightly upon those whose property chiefly consisted of slaves. There was this difference betwixt the two species of property: A farmer in the Northern or Eastern States would not think himself aggrieved by not paying a tax upon his farming stock; but a farmer in the Southern States would think himself aggrieved if his land was taxed, whilst the slaves of the slaveholder were not taxed. It was on this account that this species of property was introduced.

Mr. Murray was not struck with the observations of the gentleman last up, so as to say he would ultimately vote for this species of tax; at present, he should vote for a bill to be brought in; but unless he found the bill could reconcile the principle more, and do greater justice in the case than he at present conceived, he should then oppose it.

He said, he considered slaves in the Southern States as laborers, and unless gentlemen could show him where laborers were taxed, he should not think it right to vote for that part of the bill. He was decidedly in favor of a land tax, but against the other part of the question. Mr. M. said, he merely mentioned this that he might not hereafter be charged with inconsistency, in case he should vote against the bill. He repeated, unless provision be made for taxing labor in other parts of the United States, he must vote against this part of the bill if brought in, because the tax would operate very unequally.

Mr. Harper said, though he was entirely opposed to the tax proposed by the resolution, and should vote against the whole, yet he thought it right that a tax on slaves should be introduced with a tax on land; for, as this direct tax was to be raised by apportionment through the States, whether the Southern States paid on slaves, or the Northern States on land, made no difference in effect; each paid in its own way; one mode was more convenient for the Northern, another for the Southern, and another for the Eastern—no injury was done by this to any other State.

Mr. G. Jackson said, he was against all species of direct taxation, but particularly on this species; and, if a tax on land was carried, he should bring forward a resolution to lay a tax upon all property vested in public securities. He wished for the yeas and nays on this question.

The yeas and nays were agreed to be taken.

Mr. Nicholas wondered to hear the observation of his colleague. He should vote for the question, though he and his constituents would be affected by it; but, in the district which that gentleman represented, there were no slaves; and it was therefore his constituents' interest to have a tax on slaves, in order to lighten that on land.

Mr. G. Jackson said, it was not so much on account of the interest of himself or constituents that he opposed this tax, but he objected to it as a capitation tax.

Mr. Moore said, the situation of the Southern States had been truly stated. In the Western parts, there were few slaves. He said, in the representation to that House, the labor of the negroes had been considered as five to three, with respect to white persons; therefore, the ability of the State to pay was considered in the same proportion. His colleague from the mountains (Mr. G. Jackson) should consider that, if the holders of slaves were not to pay a portion of the tax imposed on the State of Virginia, it would fall very heavy upon his constituents, and those of his colleague, where few blacks were kept.

He hoped, therefore, it would pass.

Mr. Jeremiah Smith was aware that a tax on slaves would lighten the tax on land in the Southern States, and therefore he did not wonder at the Representatives from those States wishing it to take place; but, by so apportioning the tax, would not the landholders in the Southern States pay less than the landholders in parts of the Union where no slaves were kept? He believed they would. A person, for instance, in New Hampshire, holding the value of £1,000 in land, would pay a larger portion of the tax than a holder of land to the same extent in Virginia. He believed this would be unjust, and an objection to this mode of taxing the Southern States, as, though the tax would fall more equally on them, it would not be so with respect to other States.

Mr. Goodrich said, this tax was introduced into the system for the accommodation of that part of the Union where slaves were numerous.

A disposition to render the plan as acceptable, in every part of the country, as it could be made, consistently with the interests of the whole, ought to prevail. But, before a tax on slaves was adopted, its operation on the Union, and its effects, as it respected different districts, should be considered.

A direct tax ought to fall as equally as possible every where; that on land and houses, with their improvements, which had been agreed to, would be laid by a valuation seldom repeated—perhaps, once in ten or fifteen years. The expense of its assessment and collection would be nearly equal throughout the United States; but, with respect to a tax on slaves, there would be required frequent enumerations—at least an annual enumeration. This would be attended with considerable expense, to be defrayed, not by the particular districts, for whose benefit this species of tax was introduced, but by the United States.

There was another objection. A land tax was certain—it might, and undoubtedly would, be made a lien on the real estate on which it was laid. It would, be liable to little, if any, loss. Not so with a tax on slaves. Such a tax, he apprehended, would be uncertain, exposing the revenue to considerable defalcations. If a provision could not be made to place the loss on the districts where it happened, by retaxing them it would operate unequally. He imagined a retaxation for defalcation, if it could be made, would be considered as unjust, and create discontent among the individuals who were subjected to it; and if that could not be done, the deficiency must fall on the Union, and would produce uneasiness from its partial effects. He did not know how the detail would be arranged. He had been of the number who were desirous to see the collection-law, before they decided on the resolution before them, so as to have possessed the whole subject. At present, he saw so many difficulties from incorporating this species of tax into the plan, he could not assent to it.

Mr. Nicholas said, he did not understand the objections of the gentleman from New Hampshire, (Mr. J. Smith.) He did not see how he could produce an equal value in land in every part of the Union. The tax, he said, would be apportioned according to the number of persons, and not according to the number of acres in any State.

If the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. Goodrich) would rely upon his information, he might be assured that an annual enumeration of slaves would not cost so much as an assessment of land made once in ten years. With respect to the tax being uncertain, he was totally mistaken. It was the most productive tax in the Southern States. If the tax was laid wholly upon land, it would be laid on a great part which would be unsaleable, and when a report came to be made of the collection, there would be found great deficiencies; but, with respect to slaves, there would be no failure, because they were a species of property which would always find a ready sale in the Southern market.

Mr. S. Smith said, he had heard much on that floor with respect to equality of taxation. It was impossible, he said, to make taxes fall exactly equal; they will fall, in some cases, heavier than in others. He would state a case. When a tax on carriages was under consideration, they found the gentlemen from Connecticut voting without scruple, because that State paid only two or three hundred dollars annually, when Maryland paid five thousand dollars a year to that duty. There was no equality in this; yet those gentlemen winked at the disproportion. He hoped they would do so in the present case.

Mr. Potter said, if this part of the resolution was agreed to, it was to apportion a tax on the personal property of the Southern States, which, no doubt, they would be glad of; and if gentlemen from those States could point out any way by which the personal property of other States could be come at, he would agree to the present proposition; but he believed this could not be done; and, if not, he saw no reason why the personal property of those States should be made to bear a part of the proposed burden, whilst personal property in other States was suffered to go free. It was a hard case, he said, that a man who possessed three or four hundred dollars in land, should be made to pay a portion of the direct tax, whilst men of affluence, who possessed many thousands in public securities, or loaned on interest, should pay nothing.

The Speaker reminded the House that the question was very much lost sight of; it was not whether a tax should be laid on carriages or personal property, but whether they would agree to the report of the Committee of the Whole, viz: "that a tax should be laid on slaves, with certain exceptions."

Mr. Henderson said, he should vote against this proposition, because it was a direct tax, as he should vote against every question of that kind, until every source of indirect taxation was exhausted; and he thought this was not the case at present.

Mr. Claiborne said, he thought, also, that direct taxes should not be resorted to until indirect sources were exhausted; but he believed, they were now exhausted, and that direct taxes were the only means left to them of raising money. As he lived in a country which was unfortunately cursed with negroes, he wished the present motion to pass, for the sake of making the tax bear, in some degree, equally in the Southern States; but if he thought with his colleague (Mr. Jackson) that a tax on slaves bore any affinity to a capitation tax, he should also oppose it; but he had no such idea.

Mr. Gallatin said, he would just notice what had fallen from the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. Goodrich) which was the only thing like argument which had been used against the present proposition. As to what had been said about the quantum of tax falling on different States, or what had been said by the gentleman from Rhode Island (Mr. Potter) with respect to the personal property of the Eastern States, he did not see how it applied to the present question. If the proposed tax was certain, and the expense of collection would not be greater than would attend the collection of the tax in other States, he did not see any objection to it.

The gentleman from Connecticut had said, that the expense of an annual enumeration of slaves would be great, and that it would fall upon the United States. He would inform that gentleman and the House, that when no assessment took place, but merely an enumeration, it would be attended with no expense on the collection of the tax. The distinction which he made was, when a valuation and enumeration were both necessary, and when an enumeration alone was necessary. In the first instance, the value of the property was to be ascertained, and the tax laid accordingly; but where an enumeration was only wanted, (the tax per head, according to age, &c., having been settled,) no expense would be incurred.

Mr. G. said, he spoke from experience. In Pennsylvania there was a certain tax on personal property, the taking an account of which did not increase the expense. Every three years there was an assessment of personal property, amongst which was slaves; but the enumeration was managed in this way: the collector called twice upon persons—the first time he gave them notice to pay, and took an account of their property, which, consisting of few articles, and the value being already fixed, he could tell them at the time, the amount to be paid at his next call.

As to any degree of uncertainty apprehended from this tax, that might be removed by throwing the deficiency, if there should be any, upon the land. He thought, therefore, the objections which had been urged against this tax would be completely obviated.

Mr. Coit allowed, that nothing was more clear than that the manner in which the Southern States paid their apportionment of the proposed burden, could make no difference to the Northern and Eastern States; but the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) allowed there was some weight in the objections, with respect to the assessment and collection of the tax.

If he understood that gentleman, he said that the making an enumeration of slaves would make no difference in the expense. He did not know how this could be. If two objects were to do, viz: to value and assess the land, and to enumerate and value the slave, it was new doctrine to him, if these two things would not cost more than if only one had been done; or, if this business would be done for nothing, it would be one of the first things the United States had had done upon those terms.

Upon the collection, there would also be an additional expense and a probability of loss; the more detail there was in the business, the greater liability to error and loss to the United States; and in proportion to this loss would these States pay less than others.

Mr. Hartley said, he should at present vote for the proposition; but should feel himself at liberty to vote differently on the bill, if he did not approve it. Difficulties arose in his mind as to the propriety of taxing personal property in one State and not in another, by which means a bounty seemed to be given on land in the Southern States to the amount of the difference of the taxes between the land in those States, and that in other States, upon which purchasers would naturally calculate. This difficulty might probably be removed from his mind; and, therefore, in order to give the whole of the business a fair chance, he should wish the resolutions to go back to the Committee of Ways and Means, to bring in a bill.

Mr. Page did suppose that gentlemen coming from States which were in the habit of collecting direct taxes, would have endeavored to accommodate the business to the situation and circumstances of different States, so as to make the system the most convenient to each. He did suppose that, whenever it should have been determined to enter upon direct taxation, that sums would have been apportioned to each State, and that they would have been left to themselves to have raised the money in the way which they thought most convenient. Insuperable objections, however, it seemed, had been found against this system, as appeared from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury; but it was unreasonable that the Northern States should complain that the Southern States would pay the tax with greater facility than them. They might, he said, as well complain against the richness of their soil, or the warmness of their climate.

With respect to the tax falling lighter on them than on other States, those who held slaves would find it lighter, but those who had none, would not. But he thought it extraordinary that, whilst they were upbraided with holding a species of property peculiar to their country, they should also be upbraided with wishing to pay a duty upon that property.

Mr. P. said, he did not see what difference it could make to other States, that they raised a part of the tax required of them from slaves. The Secretary of the Treasury had recommended this mode, the Committee of Ways and Means had reported accordingly; and they were ready to pay a tax for their slaves, in addition to the expense they were at for them already; for, it should be recollected, persons holding slaves, contribute largely to the duties collected from imposts, by the purchase of flannels and cloth, rum, molasses, &c., necessary for their food and clothing.

If a person living in a State where slavery did not exist, paid something more for his land, the difference was certainly not equal to the satisfaction he must enjoy in reflecting, that his State was free from that evil. His land, on that account, would be worth three times as much as land of the same quality in the Southern States. Why, then, do gentlemen complain? The Southern States themselves might have objected to this tax; they might have doubted the constitutionality of it; indeed, he did doubt it, but he had agreed to it; and he believed there was no better way of making the tax go down in those States, than by the present measure.

For his own part, Mr. P. said, he wished he lived where there was no slavery; and if he could find a climate he liked as well, he would change his situation on that account.

Mr. Brent said, it was a very extraordinary thing that gentlemen who represented States where there were no slaves, should oppose a tax on that species of property, and that the Southern States where slavery existed, should be advocating that tax.

By the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, there appeared a deficiency of revenue, and in order to supply that deficiency, they had determined to have recourse to direct taxation; and, after the amount which each State ought to furnish, had been ascertained, he thought it should have been left to the different States to have raised the money from such funds as they judged best, provided they had been secure. This, he thought, would only have been liberal and proper. It had, however, been determined otherwise; but, from a knowledge that, by introducing land and slaves together, as objects of taxation, the tax would be more equally levied in the Southern States, if that plan had been adopted. And, surely, he said, it could have given no satisfaction to any other State, that, by laying a tax on land only, it should have operated in a very oppressive manner in some parts of the Southern States, and scarcely have been felt at all in other parts of those States; and yet, this would appear to be the opinion of the gentleman from New Hampshire; for, he said, if this law passed, a person possessing landed property in New Hampshire, of the value of £1,000, would pay more than a landholder to that amount in the Southern States. And was this, he asked, a subject of regret? If the State of Virginia paid the amount required of her in a manner which bore most equally upon the whole of her citizens, ought that to displease the citizens of other States? He thought not. He was of opinion, that it would be a desirable thing that the tax should be found to fall equally on the citizens of every State.

Another objection, produced by the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. Goodrich) was that a tax on this species of property would not be so secure as a tax on land. If that gentleman had been acquainted with the situation of the Southern States, he would have known that slaves formed the most certain fund of those States; for, whilst their wide and extensive waste lands would not command any price, slaves were always ready sale. Hence it arose, that the States were not able to raise a tax on land, whilst a tax on slaves had never failed to be productive.

With respect to the inconvenience or expense attending a tax on slaves, in Virginia, he said, no expense would be necessary; because it was the custom of that State to take annually, a list of their slaves, which was regularly recorded in the archives of the State. If gentlemen were, therefore, so economical that they would not expend a few of the public pence to get a list of this property, let them recur to the document he had mentioned, which might be done without expense.

To those who know the situation of the Southern States, the remarks made by the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) must have been irresistibly impressive. Almost the whole of the lower part of the country possessed property of this kind, whilst the upper parts had scarcely any. If a tax was, therefore, imposed upon land only, the upper part of the country would be extremely aggravated, and would murmur, and they would murmur with justice.

Gentlemen from the Eastern States called upon the Representatives of the Southern States to point out a mode by which they might come at the personal property of their States. But, he would ask them, if, independent of land with its improvements, they possessed any other species of property which could not be eluded? He believed they could not point it out; why, then, call upon gentlemen from the Southern States to do, what they, who certainly knew best their own resources, were unable to do?

The gentlemen from the Southern States, he said, had discovered those objects which they thought best able to bear the burden; and if the Representatives of the other States were not satisfied with the tax on land, let them come forward and say what other property they have equally secure, upon which a tax may be laid.

It was a phenomenon, he would again say, that the Representatives of States where slavery existed, should be contending for a tax upon slaves, and that members from States where slavery was not tolerated, were opposing it. He could not help believing that the real object of gentlemen had not been avowed. It was something hidden and unseen.[8]

Mr. Kittera said, that the opposers of this part of the resolution were the opposers of a direct tax altogether. It was observable that those upon whom the tax would fall, did not complain. It was extraordinary that the complaints should come from another quarter. As to the objections of his colleague (Mr. Hartley) that part of the tax being laid on slaves in the Southern States, would affect the value of land, it would make no difference whether the tax was on land or slaves, as it affected land, its operation would be the same. It was therefore no solid objection against the resolution.

On the question, that the House do agree to the last part of the said resolution, in the words following, to wit: "A tax on slaves, with certain exceptions;" it was resolved in the affirmative—yeas 68, nays 23, as follows:

Yeas.—Fisher Ames, Abraham Baldwin, Thomas Blount, Theophilus Bradbury, Richard Brent, Daniel Buck, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, Isaac Coles, William Cooper, William Craik, James Davenport, George Dent, George Ege, William Findlay, Abiel Foster, Jesse Franklin, Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, William B. Grove, Wade Hampton, George Hancock, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, William Hindman, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, John Wilkes Kittera, Matthew Locke, Samuel Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, John Milledge, Andrew Moore, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, Josiah Parker, John Patton, Francis Preston, Robert Rutherford, Samuel Sewall, Samuel Sitgreaves, Israel Smith, Isaac Smith, Samuel Smith, William Smith, Richard Sprigg, Jr., William Strudwick, John Swanwick, John E. Van Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Abraham Venable, Peleg Wadsworth, John Williams, and Richard Winn.

Nays.—Nathan Bryan, Dempsey Burges, Joshua Coit, Samuel W. Dana, Henry Dearborn, Dwight Foster, Nathaniel Freeman, Jr., Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, Thomas Henderson, George Jackson, William Lyman, Francis Malbone, Elisha R. Potter, John Read, John S. Sherburne, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, and Joseph B. Varnum.

And then the main question being taken, that the House do agree to the resolution, as reported by the Committee of the whole House, it was resolved in the affirmative—yeas 49, nays 39.

Ordered, That the Committee of Ways and Means do prepare and bring in a bill or bills, pursuant to the said resolution.

Monday, January 23.

Thompson J. Skinner, from Massachusetts, in place of Theodore Sedgwick, appointed a Senator of the United States, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.

Friday, January 27.

Appropriations for 1797.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the subject of appropriations for the year 1797, when the article which relates to the contingent expenses of the two branches of the Legislature, amounting to twelve thousand dollars, being read,

Mr. Baldwin said, he had often before made the remark, (and he thought it not unseasonable now to repeat it,) that the House was too apt to be merely formal and superficial in passing on the general estimate for the year. He was sorry to observe that this item had within this year or two been considerably increased; he believed the price of wood, stationery, and other articles purchased for the session, was now much the same as in 1795, though the printer's bill might be higher; yet, as the session would be but three months, he thought the sum allowed for 1795 would be sufficient. He had always thought this charge for the contingencies of the two Houses, one of the strongest instances of that kind of loose economy which it has been complained, and perhaps with too much justice, pervades all the operations of the Federal Government—we have often been reminded that, to make an expedition into the woods to an Indian town, or to build a frigate, or to coin one hundred tons of copper, costs us a great deal more than it ever did any other Government in this country. If this is a strong instance of that style of economy, let us begin the reformation with ourselves, and not be so prodigal this year in our contingent expenses; our circumstances call on us for greater attention to economy. He was sensible the place for correcting these evils was ordinarily on passing the law authorizing the expense, and not on the appropriation for the payment of it; but this item, and many others, depended on no law—changing the sum in the estimate will control the expense. If any one will take the trouble of looking over the vouchers on which these accounts have been settled for past years, he will see that there is room for more economy. One branch of the Legislature consists of about thirty members—four thousand dollars is a great sum for the purchase of their wood, quills, and paper, and for furnishing them with copies of business under consideration. Is it possible that twelve thousand dollars can be necessary for the two Houses? The whole yearly expenses of some of the State Governments do not amount to a much greater sum—he hoped this would be struck out, and the sum which was allowed for 1795, and some preceding years, be inserted.

Mr. Smith presumed the estimate was founded upon information received from the Secretary of the Senate and the Clerk of that House. He did not conceive it would make any difference in the expenditure, whether a larger or smaller sum be appropriated; as he did not suppose the Senate or that House would print the less because a less sum was appropriated. The gentleman, he said, might, by his speech, give an idea to the public, that this would be a saving of so much money; but it would, in reality, make no difference.

After a few observations from other members, the question was put and negatived—37 to 30.

The committee then rose, and had leave to sit again. And the House adjourned till Monday.

Monday, January 30.

George Leonard, from Massachusetts, appeared, and took his seat.

Manumitted Slaves.

[Mr. Swanwick presented the petition of Jacob Nicholson and Jupiter Nicholson, Job Albertson and Thomas Pritchet, dated at Philadelphia, stating that they had been the slaves of persons in Perquimans County, North Carolina, who had manumitted them, and whose surname they took—that afterwards they had been seized by other persons and sold into slavery under a law of the State—that to escape from this bondage they had fled to Philadelphia, where they had been seized under the fugitive slave act: and pray relief from Congress.]

The petition being read—

Mr. Swanwick said, he hoped it would be referred to a select committee.

Mr. Blount hoped it would not even be received by the House. Agreeably to a law of the State of North Carolina, he said they were slaves, and could, of course, be seized as such.

Mr. Thatcher thought the petition ought to be referred to the Committee on the Fugitive Law. He conceived the gentleman much mistaken in asserting these petitioners to be absolute slaves. They state that they were slaves, but that their masters manumitted them, and that their manumissions were sanctioned by a law of that State, but that a subsequent law of the same State, subjected them to slavery; and if even there was a law that allowed them to be taken and sold into slavery again, he could not see any propriety in refusing their petition in that House—THEY CERTAINLY (said Mr. T.) ARE FREE PEOPLE. It appeared they were taken under the fugitive act, which he thought ought not to affect them; they now came and prayed the House so to model that fugitive act, as to prevent its affecting persons of their description. He therefore saw great propriety in referring their petition to the committee appointed to amend that act in another part; they could as well consider its relation to the present case. He could not see how there would be a propriety in rejecting their petition; they had an undoubted right to petition the House, and to be heard.

Mr. Swanwick was surprised at the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Blount) desiring to reject this petition; he could not have thought, nor could he indulge the suspicion now, that the gentleman was so far from acknowledging the rights of man, as to prevent any class of men from petitioning. If men were aggrieved and conceive they have claim to attention, petitioning was their sacred right, and that right should never suffer innovation; whether the House ought to grant, was another question. The subject of their petition had a claim to the attention of the House. They state they were freed from slavery, but that they were much injured under a law of the United States. If a law was ever made that bore hard on any class of people, Mr. S. hoped that the door would never be shut to their complaints. If the circumstance respecting these people was as they stated, their case was very hard. He animadverted on the atrocity of that reward of ten dollars offered for one of them if taken alive, but that fifty should be given if found dead, and no questions asked. Was not this, he said, encouragement to put a period to that man's existence? Horrid reward! Could gentlemen hear it and not shudder?

Mr. Blount said, the gentleman last up was mistaken in calling the petitioners free men; the laws of North Carolina, as he observed before, did not suffer individuals to emancipate their slaves, and he should wish to know what evidence there was to prove these men free, and except that was proved, the House had no right to attend to the petition.

Mr. Sitgreaves, in answer to the gentleman last up, said he would reverse his question, and ask what evidence he had to prove that these men are not freemen; can he prove they are slaves? They have stated that a law has been made in North Carolina with a view to affect their case, and bring them again into a worse slavery than before; they want to know whether they cannot obtain relief by their application to the Government of the United States. Under these circumstances, Mr. S. wished to know why their petitions should not be taken into consideration? Was there any thing in these men, he asked, that should prevent every kind of assistance being bestowed on them? Had they not an equal right to be heard with other petitioners? He hoped the House would not only give them a hearing, but afford them all the consolation of which their unfortunate case was susceptible. If the House were obliged, through a want of power to extend to the case, to object compliance with the prayers, yet, he hoped it would be done with all due tenderness; before hearing them, he thought it would be exceedingly unjust to decide. These people may produce documents sufficient to obtain favorable attention; therefore, it was impossible before they were heard to conceive whether the House could constitutionally grant relief or not. He could see no impropriety in referring it; the object of referring a case, was to inquire into facts; thus, the committee prepared the way for discussion in the House; and why the House should refuse to deliberate and discuss this case, he knew not.

Mr. Heath was clearly convinced these people were slaves, and therefore hoped their petition would lie on the table. He would remind the gentleman that, if they undertook this business, they would soon have petitions enough of the same kind, and public business would be thereby prevented. It appeared to him to be more within the jurisdiction of the Legislature of that State; indeed, the United States had nothing to do with it.

Mr. Madison said, he should be sorry to reject any petition whatever, in which it became the business of the House to attend; but he thought this case had no claim on their attention. Yet, if it did not come within the purview of the Legislative body, he thought, it might be suffered to lie on the table. He thought it a judicial case, and could obtain its due in a Court of Appeal in that State. If they are free by the laws of North Carolina, they ought to apply to those laws, and have their privilege established. If they are slaves, the constitution gives them no hope of being heard here. A law has been passed to prevent the owners of those slaves emancipating them; it is therefore impossible that any relief can be granted. The petitioners are under the laws of North Carolina, and those laws cannot be the interpreters of the laws of the United States.

Mr. Sitgreaves said, he was not prepared to deny that this petition is in the situation the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison) states; nor was he prepared to prove that it came under the power of the General Government; but he could see no kind of reason why it should not be sent to a committee who should examine the case and report whether it required Legislative interference, or whether it was a subject of judicial authority in the country whence the petitioners came. Many petitions, he said, were sent to the House, who referred them for investigation to a committee, and many had been reported as being under judicial power only, and as such been rejected here. If this underwent the same order, and should be found to be of a judicial nature, the committee would report so, and the House would honorably refuse it. This he thought the only just method.

Mr. Rutherford concurred with the gentleman from Pennsylvania, that this memorial ought to be referred to a committee who would report whether these people had been emancipated, according to a law of the State of North Carolina, or not. The circumstances attending this case, he said, demanded a just and full investigation, and if a law did exist either to emancipate, or send these poor people into slavery, the House would then know. He doubted not, every thing just and proper would be done, but he hoped every due respect would be paid to the petition. In short, he was assured every member in the House would wish to act consistently. This case, from the great hardships represented in the petition, applied closely to the nicest feelings of the heart, and he hoped humanity would dictate a just decision.

Mr. Gilbert hoped the petition would be referred to the committee proposed; he thought it laid claim to the humanity of the House. He thought every just satisfaction should be given, and attention paid, to every class of persons who appeal for decision to the House.

Mr. W. Smith said, the practice of a former time, in a similar case, was, that the petition was sealed up and sent back to the petitioners, not being allowed even to remain on the files of the office. This method, he said, ought to be pursued with respect to the present petition. It was not a matter that claimed the attention of the Legislature of the United States. He thought it of such an improper nature, as to be surprised any gentleman would present a petition of the kind. These men are slaves, and, he thought, not entitled to attention from that body; to encourage slaves to petition the House would have a tendency to invite continual applications. Indeed it would tend to spread an alarm throughout the Southern States; it would act as an "entering-wedge," whose consequences could not be foreseen. This is a kind of property on which the House has no power to legislate. He hoped it would not be committed at all; it was not a proper subject for Legislative attention. He was not of the opinion of some gentlemen, that the House were bound to sit on every question recommended to their notice. He thought particular attention ought to be paid to the lateness of the session; if this subject were to be considered, too much time of the House would be devoured which was much wanted on important business.

Mr. Thatcher said, he was in favor of referring this petition. He could see no reason which had been adduced to prove the impropriety of receiving a petition from these people. The gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Blount) is of the opinion that these people being slaves, the House ought not to pay attention to their prayer. This, he said, was quite new language—a system of conduct which he never saw the House practise, and hoped he never should. That the House should not receive a petition without an evidence to prove it was from a free man. This was a language which opposed the constitutional freedom of every State where the Declaration of Rights had been made; they all declare that every man is born equally free, and that each has an equal right to petition if aggrieved—this doctrine he never heard objected to.

The gentlemen from Virginia (Mr. Madison and Mr. Heath) had said, it was a Judicial and not a Legislative question; they say the petition proves it, and that it ought not to be attended to. Mr. T. said, he saw no proof whatever of the impropriety of the House receiving it. There might be some Judicial question growing out of the case; but that was no reason, because it might possibly undergo a Judicial course, that the General Government were not to be petitioned. The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Smith) had said, "that this was a kind of property on which the House could not legislate;" but he would answer, this was a kind of property on which they were bound to legislate. The fugitive act could prove this authority; if petitions were not to be received they would have to legislate in the dark. It appeared plainly that these men were manumitted by their masters; and because a number of men who called themselves legislators should, after they had the actual enjoyment of their liberty, come forward and say that these men should not remain at liberty, and actually authorize their recaptivity, he thought it exceedingly unjust to deprive them of the right of petitioning to have their injuries redressed. These were a set of men on whom the fugitive law had no power, and he thought they claimed protection under the power of that House, which always ought to lean towards freedom. Though they could not give freedom to slaves, yet he hoped gentlemen would never refuse to lend their aid to secure freemen in their rights against tyrannical imposition.

Mr. Christie thought no part of the fugitive act operated against freedom. He thought no good could be derived from sending the petition to a committee; they could not prove whether they were slaves or not. He was much surprised any gentleman in the House should present such a petition. Mr. C. said, he was of the same opinion with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Smith) that the petition ought to be sent back again. He hoped the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Swanwick) would never hand such another petition into the House.

Mr. Holland said, the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Thatcher) said, "the House ought to lean towards freedom." Did he mean to set all slaves at liberty, or receive petitions from all? Sure he was, that if this was received, it would not be long before the table would be filled with similar complaints, and the House might sit for no other purpose than to hear them. It was a Judicial question, and the House ought not to pretend to determine the point; why, then, should they take up time upon it? To put an end to it he hoped, it would be ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. Macon said, he had hearkened very closely to the observations of gentlemen on the subject, and could see no reason to alter his desire that it would not be committed. No man, he said, wished to encourage petitions more than himself, and no man had considered this subject more. These men could not receive any aid from the General Government; but by application to the State, justice would be done them. Trials of this kind had very frequently been brought on in all the different courts of that State, and had very often ended in the freedom of slaves; the appeal was fair, and justice was done. Mr. M. thought it a very delicate subject for the General Government to act on; he hoped it would not be committed; but he should not be sorry if the proposition of a gentleman (Mr. Smith) was to take place, that it was to be sent back again.

Mr. W. Smith observed, that a gentleman (Mr. Thatcher) had uttered a wish to draw these people from their state of slavery to liberty. Mr. S. did not think they were sent there to take up the subject of emancipation. When subjects of this kind are brought up in the House they ought to be deprecated as dangerous. They tended to produce very uncomfortable circumstances.

Mr. Varnum said, the petitioners had received injury under a law of the United States, (the fugitive act) and not merely a law of North Carolina, and therefore, he thought, they had an undoubted right to the attention of the General Government if that act bore hard on them. They stated themselves to be freemen, and he did not see any opposition of force to convince the House they were not; surely it could not be said that color alone should designate them as slaves. If these people had been free, and yet were taken up under a law of the United States, and put into prison, then it appeared plainly the duty of the House to inquire whether that act had such an unjust tendency, and if it had, proper amendments should be made to it to prevent the like consequences in future. It required nothing more under that act than that the person suspected should be brought before a single magistrate, and evidence given that he is a slave, which evidence the magistrate could not know if distant from the State; the person may be a freeman, for it would not be easy to know whether the evidence was good, at a distance from the State; the poor man is then sent to his State in slavery. Mr. V. hoped the House would take all possible care that freemen should not be made slaves; to be deprived of liberty was more important than to be deprived of property. He could not think why gentlemen should be against having the fact examined; if it appears that they are slaves, the petition will of course be dismissed, but if it should appear they are free, and receive injury under the fugitive act, the United States ought to amend it, so that justice should be done.

Mr. Blount said, admitting those persons who had been taken up were sent back to North Carolina, they would then have permission to apply to any of the courts in the State for a fair trial of their plea; there are very few courts in which some negroes have not tried this cause, and obtained their liberty. He agreed with the gentleman from Massachusetts, on the freedom of these men to procure their rights; it did not appear to him that they were free; true they had been set free, but that manumission was from their masters, who had not a right to set them free without permission of the Legislature.

Mr. Kitchell could not see what objection could obtain to prevent these people being heard. The question was not now, whether they are or are not slaves, but it is on a law of the United States. They assert that this law does act injuriously to them; the question is, therefore, whether a committee shall be appointed to inquire on the improper force of this law on the case of these men; if they are freemen, he said, they ought not to be sent back from the most distant part of the United States to North Carolina, to have justice done them, but they ought to receive it from the General Government who made the law they complain of.

Mr. K. said, he had not examined the force of the law on the subject, and was not prepared to decide; there could be no evil in referring it for examination; when the committee would report their opinion of the subject and gentlemen be prepared to act on it.

On the question for receiving the petition being put, it was negatived—ayes 33, noes 50.[9]

Tuesday, February 7.

Thomas Sprigg, from Maryland, appeared, and took his seat.

Increase of Salaries.

A bill was also received from the Senate for increasing the compensation of the members of the Legislature and certain officers of Government; which was read, and, on motion that it be read a second time, it was carried, 33 to 30. It was accordingly read a second time.

The bill contemplates an advance of $5,000 to the present salary of the President of the United States, and $2,000 to the Vice President, to commence on the 4th of March next, and continue for four years; and that the members of the Senate and House of Representatives, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of War, Attorney General, Postmaster General, Assistant Postmaster General, Comptroller of the Treasury, Auditor, Register, Commissioner of the Revenue, Accountant of the War Department, the Secretary of the Senate, the Clerk of the House of Representatives, and the principal clerks employed by them, the Sergeant-at-Arms of the House of Representatives, the Door-keepers and Assistant Door-keepers of both Houses, have an advance of 25 per cent. upon their present compensation.

Mr. Parker moved that the further consideration of this bill be postponed till the first Monday in December next. He said they had lately had the subject of augmenting the salaries of all the officers here mentioned, except the President and Vice President and themselves, under consideration; and as they had resolved to refuse an advance to others, he trusted they should also refuse it to themselves. He thought the present an improper time to go into the subject.

Mr. Hartley wished the gentleman would consent to some day next week. He could not say he was ready to agree to the whole of the advances proposed, but he wished the subject to be taken into consideration, and perhaps by the time he had mentioned they might have some further information on the subject of our finances.

Mr. Macon said, the most regular way for the gentleman from Virginia to obtain his object, would be to move to have the bill committed to a Committee of the Whole, and made the order of the day for the 4th of March.

Mr. Parker made that motion.

Mr. Hartley hoped this motion would not be agreed to, as it was a sort of manœuvre to get rid of the subject, which he did not approve. He would either have the bill negatived at once, made the order of some day in the present session, or postponed till the next.

Mr. Ames said gentlemen had no doubt a right to govern their own votes according to their own notions of propriety. No man had a right to prescribe to another. His conscience was no rule to any other man. But he thought he was authorized to say, they neither had nor claimed a right to do a right thing in a wrong way. To agree to the motion proposed, would be an insincere way of putting a negative upon the bill. He trusted gentlemen who wished this would do it in a more direct way. The compensation of the President and Vice President could not be augmented, he said, after they had entered upon their office; and to say they would take up the subject for consideration at a time when their powers would not exist, was an evasive manner, which he approved not. It was an easy thing for gentlemen to say no on the question, without taking this circuitous way of putting an end to the subject.

Mr. Venable thought the view of his colleague would be answered as well by a postponement to the 3d of March as to the 4th, and it would be more orderly. Nor did he think this way of disposing of the business called for the censure which the gentleman from Massachusetts had thrown upon it. It was a question upon which that House had already decided by a considerable majority. No new light had been thrown upon the subject, and he thought it by no means disrespectful to postpone it. It was well known that the effect of this motion would be a postponement for the present session. This was what he wished; and if his colleague would consent to alter his motion to the 3d of March, he should not hesitate to vote for it.

Mr. Parker had no objection to the motion standing for the 3d of March, though he did not consider the motions for the first Monday in December or the 4th of March as unparliamentary. He thought the salaries of the President and Vice President high enough. The salaries of some of their public officers might at present be somewhat too low, but the time would soon come when the price of living would become lower, and then they would be fully adequate; and therefore he did not wish to see them advanced at present.

Mr. Buck was opposed to putting off the question till the time contemplated by the present motion. To get rid of the subject in such a way, would be descending from that state of independence which they ought to preserve, and would have the appearance of a slight cast upon another branch of Government. If they were prepared to meet the question, they might as well meet it now as then. To agree to the motion proposed, would show a degree of cowardice, and effectually put it out of their power to consider and determine upon the subject. The Senate, he said, had found sufficient reason to originate this bill, and he thought, if it were only out of complaisance to them, the subject should not be treated in the way proposed. It was said that this subject had already been decided, but he did not think so. There had been no general proposition for augmenting compensation. They had had the subject under view partially, but he knew there were some members (he knew of one at least) who voted against any partial advance, because they thought it should be general. This was his motive. He thought all the officers of Government were upon an equal footing, and therefore he voted against advancing the salary of one and not of another—not because he thought they were already sufficiently compensated; he did not think they were. He wished, therefore, the subject for a general augmentation to come under discussion. If he should be convinced an advance was improper, he should give it up, and should be against putting the subject off to a time when it could not be considered.

Mr. Hartley again urged the propriety of postponing for a shorter period: he mentioned the 17th instant.

Mr. Macon said he was opposed to the bill in toto, and he considered the motion of the gentleman from Virginia as meant to try the question. He wished it to stand for the 4th of March, as at first proposed, because, if it stood for the 3d, the subject might be called up and acted upon on the last day of the session. He should therefore renew the 4th of March, because, if there were a majority who wished the bill to be rejected, it was desirable that as little time as possible should be lost upon the subject.

The question for postponing till the 4th of March was put and negatived, 46 to 45.

Mr. Parker then moved to have it postponed till the 3d of March.

Mr. Henderson thought it more proper to postpone till the 3d than till the 4th. He was ready, he said, to meet the question, either in a direct or indirect way. He had made a calculation, and found that the advances proposed would amount to from $100,000 to $110,000. Mr. H. believed our finances were not in a state to admit of this addition to our expenses; besides, he trusted every necessary of life would soon be reduced in price, so as to render any advance of salary to our officers unnecessary.

The question was put and negatived, 57 to 32.

On motion of Mr. Hartley, Friday week was proposed and negatived, there being only 35 votes for it.

Mr. Gallatin moved that the subject should be made the order for this day. He said he had voted for postponing it till the 4th of March, with a view of getting rid of it; but since it must be considered, he wished it to be disposed of as soon as possible.

Mr. Sitgreaves proposed that it be made the order of the day for Monday.

The sense of the House was first taken for Monday and negatived, there being only 41 votes for it. It was then put for this day and carried, there being 58 votes for it.

Wednesday, February 8.

Election of President.

The Speaker informed the House that the hour was come at which they had appointed to meet the Senate, for the purpose of counting the votes for, and declaring the election of a President and Vice President of the United States, and that the Clerk would inform the Senate they were ready to receive them.

The Clerk accordingly waited upon the Senate, and the President and members of the Senate soon after entered and took their seats, the President on the right hand of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and the members of the Senate on the same side of the Chamber; when the President of the Senate (Mr. Adams) thus addressed the two Houses:

Gentlemen of the Senate and of the House of Representatives:

The purpose for which we are assembled is expressed in the following resolutions. [Mr. Adams here read the resolutions which had been adopted by the two Houses relative to the subject.] I have received packets containing the certificates of the votes of the Electors for a President and Vice President of the United States from all the sixteen States of the Union: I have also received duplicates of the returns by post from fifteen of the States. No duplicate from the State of Kentucky is yet come to hand.

It has been the practice heretofore, on similar occasions, to begin with the returns from the State at one end of the United States, and to proceed to the other; I shall therefore do the same at this time.