FIFTH CONGRESS.—SECOND SESSION. (continued 4)

Mr. Brooks agreed with the gentleman who brought forward this resolution, so far as it declares we are not prepared to resort to war. He believed no nation or man who had common understanding could be fond of war. The people of this country have yet the recollection of the fatal effects of the late war. But there are two kinds of war, offensive and defensive. He wished gentlemen to distinguish between them; for though he was ready to declare against offensive war, and to submit to small injuries rather than make defensive war; yet he was not willing to say he should not be ready to defend his country against the attack of any foreign power whatever. He hoped he should be believed in this declaration, as he had formerly been employed in the defence of it; and if gentlemen meant that though foreign nations attempt to invade our territory, and to reduce us again to the colonies of a foreign power, they would not repel them, he could not join them in opinion. And though he should vote for the resolution as moved to be amended, he should feel himself at perfect liberty to defend his country in case of attack. He wondered the gentleman from Virginia should object to vote for the resolution, because it was general, as it included the French Republic as well as all other nations.

Mr. Rutledge trusted the sentiments which the gentleman from New York had expressed would govern the committee, and that all were ready to say, that though we value the blessings of peace, yet we are ready to resist insult and injury from whatever quarter they come. He hoped this would be the conduct of this country; and notwithstanding much had been heard about British parties and French parties, that all would unite in this determination. This being his opinion, he should vote for the amendment; and he hoped gentlemen would be satisfied with this declaration, and that no more would be heard of a party in the House in favor of war. Though he meant to vote for the resolution, he thought it unnecessary; but in these days of jealousy and suspicion, if he were not to vote for it, he should expect to be told he was in favor of war.

Gentlemen asked whether war is not approaching? And whether the Executive is not hastening it? To the latter question he would answer in the negative; with respect to the other, he could not answer, as it depended on France, and so versatile and uncertain is every thing in that country, that no dependence can be had upon it. Mr. R. said, at the last session, when we had no intercourse with France, he thought it necessary we should have it: that intercourse had proved ineffectual; and though he sincerely wished for peace, yet he saw something in the conduct of France which almost precluded hope.

The gentleman from Virginia had said, that this country had frequently been stated as in a degraded state. He did not recollect to have made the declaration, but this was his opinion. When our national rights had been violated; when our commerce had been depredated; when the vessels of belligerent powers, which had sought an asylum in our waters, had been plundered and burnt, he thought it necessary to go into measures of defence. He thought our frigates ought not to have remained at the wharves; that our extensive sea-coast on which is much wealth, should not be unprotected: he thought our seaports, the principal depots of our revenue, ought to have been fortified. He joined his friends in their attempts to have carried these measures, and, when they failed, he could not help thinking his country was in a degraded state and that she had lost the spirit which animated her in the year 1775. He hoped, however, that now, when France had gone to the lengths which she has gone to, that there would have been only one sentiment as to the propriety of the measures formerly proposed. But though he thought the nation in a degraded state, he was not in favor of war. He believed the citizens of this country were not for it. He believed the Government was averse to war; and that no part of it was more so than the Executive. War would be a loss to this country; and to no individual more than the Executive. He is no warrior, and, consequently, war has no laurels in store for him.

The gentleman from Virginia has spoken of war as having something dazzling in perspective; something which flattered pride and ambition. But did the gentleman suppose that a war with France could be flattering to pride or ambition? It could not; it would be a war of prudence; we must shut ourselves up, and act on the defensive, and say, "when reason returns, when an ebb shall take place in the affairs of France, when her flow of victories shall be over, she will do us justice." In the mean time, we must defend ourselves. Mr. R. repeated, that he did not believe any man in that House could wish for war; when he looked around him and saw gentlemen whose wounds are yet sore from former service; when he saw them voting for measures of defence, he could not believe, nor could any believe, that they wished to plunge the country in war. It would sooner be believed that gentlemen who made the charges were mistaken.

Mr. Sewall was opposed to the proposition as it now stood, and hoped it would be amended. What effect it would then have, he left those to judge who introduced it. Mr. S. said, he and those who, on all questions of defence, had voted with him, had been endeavoring for some time to go into some measures of that kind, and to determine whether these measures should be confined to our own limits or be extended to the ocean. These measures ought now to be decided upon, as this is a moment in which our commerce is depredated upon in a most unprecedented manner. We are now, said he, called upon to consider the hazards of our situation. [Mr. S. then quoted a part of the President's Message, as to the situation of our affairs in France, and as to the decree which was proposed respecting the taking of English goods on board of neutral vessels, and the carrying of which was declared to make neutral vessels good prizes.] This last regulation, Mr. S. said, was a direct violation of the law of nations, and amounted to a declaration of war on the part of France against this country. But, instead of making any defence, gentlemen call upon the committee to declare we are not disposed to resort to war against the French Republic; so that, after we have been injured and abused, and denied the common rights of humanity, we are not to complain, but make a declaration that we will not go to war. Was then, he asked, a question of war a card of politeness? Did a nation ever make a declaration that it was not at war? It could not say so, except it were in so degraded a state that it had no rights capable of injury. To say we are not at war was to say no more than it is light when the sun shines; but to call upon the committee to say so at this time, was to degrade the nation from its independence, and below its character. The present state of things, Mr. S. said, ought to be considered as a state of war, not declared by us, but against us, by the French Republic; and if we want spirit to defend ourselves, let us not say so. We may refrain from acting, but let us not say we receive injuries with thankfulness. But this proposition goes still further. In a moment of public danger, it goes to divide and separate this House from the President of the United States. The gentleman from Virginia had well explained this resolution, when he said, it was intended to interrupt the views of the President of the United States. That gentleman considered the Message of the President as a declaration of war, and this resolution was to be in contradiction to it. If this was the sense in which it was to be understood, it was false in point of fact; for the President had neither declared war nor called upon Congress to declare war; no such sentiment could be found in the Message. To agree to the proposition as it stands, would be to give countenance to the assertion of the French Government, that we are a people divided from our Government; but, taking it with the amendment, he looked upon it as a harmless thing. Mr. S. concluded, by saying, that he considered the conduct of France in the light of war. How far we would resent it, was the question; whether offensively or defensively. He was in favor of defensive measures, as we are not equal to offensive measures, (he wished to God we were.) It was our weakness, and the division which had appeared in our councils, that had invited these attacks. He trusted they should now unite and repel them.

Mr. Gallatin said, before the speech of the gentleman who had just sat down, he could not discover what was the meaning of the amendment, to strike out the words "against the French Republic," as, when the House were in a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union for considering the late Message of the President, the resolution was perfectly consonant. Besides, we have no danger to apprehend from any other power, since our dispute is settled with Spain. The intention of the amendment was evidently to render the resolution as unmeaning as possible.

Every gentleman who had spoken on this subject, had agreed that war is not a desirable object for the United States. He gave them credit for the assertion. But this was not the question; but whether we are prepared to resort to war under existing circumstances. It is a question of fact. Mr. G. took notice of the different modes which had been attempted to defeat the resolution; but, though the present amendment were agreed to, he should still vote in favor of the resolution; for it would be effectual, in some degree, as it could only apply to the French nation, though it was not so expressed.

Mr. G. believed the United States had arrived at a crisis at which a stand ought to be made, in which it was necessary for Congress to say whether they will resort to war or preserve peace. He was led to this conclusion from a review of the conduct of France, and of the late Message of the President.

In respect to France, we know, that some time ago, she declared our treaty with her to be at an end; though not in words, the result was to deprive us of the advantages derived from that treaty. In the next place, she dismissed our Minister Plenipotentiary. Under these circumstances, the President called the extraordinary session of Congress, and when met together, after having related the reasons which induced this call, he concluded with saying, "that it was his sincere desire to preserve peace and friendship with all nations, and believing that neither the honor nor the interest of the United States absolutely forbade the repetition of advances for securing these desirable objects, he should not fail to promote and accelerate an accommodation," &c. The President accordingly sent Envoys to France, and the result of the embassy was given to Congress in the last Message, which was now under consideration, in which he says, "the object of the mission cannot be accomplished on terms compatible with the safety, honor, or the essential interests of the nation." The people of the United States are therefore informed, that negotiations are at an end, and that we cannot obtain redress for wrongs, but may expect a continuation of captures, in consequence of the decree which it was supposed was passed, for seizing all neutral vessels with British property, manufactures, or produce, on board. Mr. G. said, he differed in opinion from the gentleman last up, that this was a declaration of war. He allowed it would be justifiable ground of war for this country, and that, on this account, it was necessary to agree to, or reject the present proposition, in order to determine the ground intended to be taken. For, though there may be justifiable cause for war, if it is not our interest to go to war, the resolution will be agreed to.

There was another reason why this resolution ought to be now decided, which arose from the conduct of our Executive. He has declared that a change of circumstances has taken place which has occasioned him to withdraw his order forbidding merchant vessels to arm; which amounts to this, that he now permits vessels of the United States to use means of defence against any attack which may be made upon them. Mr. G. thought it necessary, therefore, to declare, whether we were to pursue measures of war or peace. Before measures are taken which will lead to war, the House ought to decide whether it is their intention at present to go to war.

The gentleman from New York had spoken of the difference between offensive and defensive war. This related to the motives, more than to the manner, of carrying on war; because when war is once entered into, though it may be at first defensive, it cannot remain so. It would be ridiculous, for instance, to say, that our frigates should prevent our vessels from being taken; but that they should not take French privateers.

But it was said, if the resolution was agreed to, it would confirm the opinion which had been held that Congress and the Executive were divided in opinion. The gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Sewall) told the House that the question was war or peace; that the conduct of France was a declaration of war, yet as the President had not called upon Congress to go to war, they ought not to declare that it is not expedient to resort to war. But if it be assumed as a principle, which that gentleman asserts, that the conduct of the French is a declaration of war, and the President has told us we are in war, the resolution could not be improper. Or if his other principle be assumed, that the information of the President does not amount to war, then an agreement to the resolution would show that Congress concurred with him in opinion, that it is not proper at present to resort to war. So that in both cases, the resolution is proper.

Mr. G. said he was precluded by the amendment from going into the merits of the resolution. His arguments went to show the propriety of agreeing to it in one way or other. Nor did he mean to take any notice of what had been said about a division of opinion in our councils having invited the insults and injuries which France had committed against this country. If he were to do this, he must have recourse to recrimination, which he did not wish. He wished rather to take a serious view of our present situation, and either meet it by war, or by measures which shall avoid war. On both sides are difficulties; but the difficulties and inconveniences of both ought to be weighed, and the least taken; and, having determined, measures ought to be pursued accordingly. He did not wish to adopt the resolution as proposed to be amended, and then go on and act directly contrary to it. He thought it best to meet the resolution at once, and say whether we are determined on war or peace. If we go to war, we must expect to meet all the expense and evils of such a state; and if we remain at peace, we must, in a certain degree, submit. He meant to say, that we must submit to have a number of our vessels taken. But whether we shall have more taken in adopting one course than the other, he left to gentlemen to determine. He thought the submission he had mentioned, very different from the submission which had been spoken of by the gentleman from South Carolina, and others.

Mr. G. concluded, by observing, that the conduct of France must tend to destroy that influence which gentlemen had so often complained of as existing in this country. Indeed, he was convinced that at the commencement of her revolution there was a great enthusiasm amongst our citizens in favor of her cause, which naturally arose from their having been engaged in a similar contest; but he believed these feelings had been greatly diminished by her late conduct towards this country. He thought, therefore, that whether we engaged in war, or remained in a state of peace, much need not be apprehended from the influence of France in our councils. The business had come to a mere matter of calculation, as to what course will be best to be taken for the interest and happiness of the country. If he could separate defensive from offensive war at sea, he should be in favor of it; but he could not make the distinction, and therefore he should be in favor of pursuing measures of peace.

Several persons rose, but, being about three o'clock, a motion was made for the committee to rise, which was negatived—46 to 44.

Mr. Dana did not conceive that the construction of language given by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, was to be taken as true, without examination. He trusted not. The gentleman stated the question to be peace or war; he could not conceive it to be such. It was unfortunate that, in this important crisis, the House should be engaged, like a set of rhetoricians, in disputing the meaning of words. Indeed, the decision on the present motion, he thought wholly unimportant.

The gentleman last up had said there was no distinction between offensive and defensive war, and that he was, therefore, opposed to either. Mr. D. thought the distinction clear; offensive war, is when an attack is made upon another; and defensive, when a nation has recourse to war, merely for self-defence. But there was another state of things which could not have the name of war, which was to have recourse to measures of defence; to be prepared in cases of attack. It was clear, by the law of nations, that to prepare for defence, was not to commit hostility. To say that to take measure of defence is hostility, was a new definition, and it was the mighty discovery of the gentleman from Pennsylvania.

Did gentlemen mean that if we should make use of force against lawless violence, it is war? If not, what did all that had been said amount to? He thought the proposition perfectly nugatory.

But the gentleman said, that his friend from Massachusetts had said, that France had already declared war against us, and that, therefore, we must resort to war. For his part, he did not know what gentlemen meant by resorting to war. If they had adopted terms which had any legal meaning, he could have understood them, but the present might mean every thing, or nothing. If it meant any thing, it meant taking active measures against France in the first instance. He was not only ready to say he would not consent to do this with respect to France, but with respect to every other nation.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania, and two gentlemen from Virginia, had said that the Message of the President amounted to a declaration that we were now in war. This idea he thought was stated very incorrectly. They did not seem to have understood the meaning of the language of the President. The state of things which existed at the time orders were issued to prevent the arming of merchant vessels was essentially different from the present; then there was an evident disposition in the owners of vessels to cruise against a foreign belligerent nation, and the order was issued to prevent attack and plunder; but the desire to arm at present is for the purpose of defence merely, and not to cruise or plunder. There is a law forbidding vessels to arm for the purpose of cruising; but none forbidding merchants to arm in their own defence. This was the fair construction, he believed, of the meaning of the President.

Mr. Otis observed, that the opposers of this amendment could assign no better reason for declaring a desire to keep peace with the French Republic, to the exclusion of other nations, than their own construction of the President's last Message, which they considered as directed against that Republic only; but the House having resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, the resolution on the table had no greater relation to that Message than to any former Speech or Message, or to the affairs of the Union at large. If it was intended as an answer to the Message, it should be moved in that form; but unless it was in a particular manner connected with it, the public could not connect it more naturally with this Message, than the Speech delivered at the opening of the session. The House had been heretofore informed, that France was not the only country with which a rupture was to be apprehended. Spain might be considered, until lately, as having actually invaded our territory; and though the presumption at present was, that the causes of contention with that country were removed, yet they were not officially informed of that fact, and without such information it was not less proper to express their desire of maintaining peace with Spain than with other countries. Again, gentlemen had often intimated that a war with France would involve us in a war with the nations in alliance with her. It was therefore inexpedient to show a contempt or indifference for them, by leaving them out of our pacific manifesto.

He considered the Message in a different view from many gentlemen. But admitting, for the sake of argument, that the President had declared an opinion upon the facts stated by him, that war was inevitable; gentlemen must consider the fact to be true; if they doubted it, they ought to demand information. How would this resolution then stand? In reply to assurances that negotiation had failed; that our Commissioners were treated with neglect and contempt; that letters of marque and reprisal were issued against our vessels; and that the most hostile appearances were discernible on the part of France; it was proposed to declare, that with them, and them only, it was inexpedient to resort to war. Such a proposal would hardly be found in the annals of the most humble and degraded nation.

He disapproved of the resolution, though he should vote for the amendment, and would not, on the present occasion, follow gentlemen who had gone at large into the merits of the resolution. Upon the extent of the defensive measures proposed by gentlemen, his feelings inclined him to enlarge; but this discussion would be more pertinent upon some other question. He would merely hint, that actual invasion might not be the worst calamity to this country. He could conceive of a partial invasion of our territory that would be much less injurious, and attended with much less loss than the total ruin of our commerce.

The call for the committee to rise being repeated,

Mr. N. Smith hoped gentlemen would be satisfied to take the question, which he thought very unimportant. The time consumed in discussing it was, however, important, as other concerns called for attention. He knew there were gentlemen who chose rather to address the people of the United States than to legislate. He thought it better to legislate, than to preach to the people. He looked upon the present resolution as a text from which it was intended to alarm the people with respect to war, and he wished not to indulge gentlemen in their design. He wished the question to be taken for another reason. It was suggested by the gentleman from Virginia, that the Message of the President was considered by the people as a declaration of war, and that reports were in circulation, that a treaty, offensive and defensive, was concluded with Great Britain. After this, he would call the attention of the committee to the resolution, which was, in effect, to say, we must interfere, or war will be brought upon the country. Did not this go to sanction a report which was as false and malignant as even jacobinism could invent? It did; and he hoped, they would not so far sanction the report, as to let the motion lie before them undecided.

Mr. Dayton hoped the committee would rise. The gentleman last up began with saying the proposition was of no importance; but, before he sat down, showed that he thought differently. Mr. D. thought it was of importance that the committee should come to a right decision upon it, and say whether it ought to be agreed to in general terms, or rejected.

Mr. N. Smith explained.

Mr. J. Williams thought the question trifling, and hoped a decision would be had upon it.

Mr. Giles said, the question was a question of peace or war, and yet gentlemen call it trifling. He did not mean to alarm the people of the United States, but he wished them to understand their situation. He acknowledged he was himself much alarmed. Gentlemen were willing to engage in defensive, but not in offensive war; but when war was once begun it would not be in the power of the United States to keep it within the character of defensive war. Indeed the gentleman from Massachusetts, when he spoke of defensive war, confessed our inability for offensive war, and uttered a prayer to the Supreme Being that we were able to engage offensively; and where, he asked, with such sentiments, is the difference between offensive and defensive war? He could see none; he deprecated war of every kind.

Mr. J. Williams hoped the question would be taken. As he before stated, he thought it trifling, and the debate upon it only calculated to alarm the people, which seemed to be the object of gentlemen. If the question was not taken before they adjourned, much debate would be had, and much time spent to very little purpose. He thought it very extraordinary, as no one was found to bring forward a resolution to declare war, that a gentleman would introduce a resolution of its being inexpedient so to do. He was persuaded that this negative mode of proceeding was calculated to draw on a debate, to set the people against the Executive. Time, he said, was precious; they had sat near five months and done but little, much remained to be done, and as all had declared their aversion to a war, the people should be undeceived. He had himself seen gentlemen write upon the late Message of the President, for the purpose of sending to their constituents, "A war message against France."

Mr. Macon wished the gentleman would name who had thus written.

A call of order took place: and a motion was made for the committee to rise, and carried.

Wednesday, March 28.

Relations with France.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, when the amendment to the first of Mr. Sprigg's propositions, as to the inexpediency, under existing circumstances, of resorting to war against the French Republic, being under consideration; which amendment is to strike out the words "French Republic,"

Mr. Pinckney rose and said, he was in favor of the amendment, because it tended to make what he thought an improper proposition, in some degree, nugatory; for he believed to agree to the resolution without it, would be prejudicial to the interest and welfare of the country, as he did not think the period had arrived which called for a decision on measures of war or peace. If such a declaration had been necessary, he should have expected it to come from gentlemen in favor of a war, declaring, that it is expedient to go to war, as it was a very uncommon thing to declare we will not do a thing. His strongest reason against coming to this resolution, however, was, that at this period the House had not sufficient information concerning the whole of this business, to enable them to form a correct judgment upon it. The President told the House, indeed, that he had little hope of a favorable termination of the negotiation, but they knew nothing of the train of the negotiation, or of the circumstances attending it. They knew that our Commissioners had not been received; but they had not sufficient information as to the manner in which they had been treated, to enable them to come to the decision proposed.

The gentleman who proposed the resolution, said it was time to come forward and declare whether we will have peace or war. Would to God, said Mr. P., it was in our power, by any such declaration, to avert war, or maintain peace; but he believed this did not depend upon any declaration of ours. In questions of war there were always two parties, one of whom was generally the aggressor, and the other generally passive. In the present case, he considered this country as the passive party, and, therefore, any declaration on our part would have little effect. We know that individuals or nations induced to pursue measures from interest or passion, are not easily diverted from their purpose. If the French are actuated by either of these motives, no declaration of ours will prevent the calamity. Such a proposition would rather accelerate than prevent the evil. If our declarations could have availed, they have not been wanting. From the first period of a misunderstanding between the two countries, declarations have been made deprecating war in general terms, but particularly with that nation. A Minister Plenipotentiary had been sent to explain the views of this Government, and to remove any jealousies which might exist, and to make such specific propositions as were thought necessary; but our Minister was rejected without a hearing. The next measure was, to send special Commissioners, in order to settle our differences and avert the calamity of war. We have, therefore, made sufficient declarations of our pacific intentions. Indeed, he thought too much had been rested on these declarations, as nothing had been done for our defence. When we looked at our seaports, and saw their defenceless condition, he thought it evident sufficient attention had not been paid to them, knowing that war might, at least, be a possible event.

This resolution differed exceedingly from any thing which took place when we had a misunderstanding with England in 1794. At that time, when England issued her extraordinary Order of the 4th of November, and our commerce was depredated upon, measures were spoken of for countervailing the injuries which our citizens experienced, but no proposition like the present was produced. We are now aggrieved and injured in a most extraordinary manner, but we say we will not go to war. On a former occasion he had heard of a variety of restrictive regulations, proposed with a view of restraining the injuries committed upon us, and to bring Great Britain to reason; and he did expect something similar would have been proposed on the present occasion, but nothing of the kind had appeared. It was true we had not so great hold of the French nation as of the British, in this respect, but we had some; and he believed measures might be taken which would induce the nation to hear reason. But, instead of this, it was proposed that we should say, we have been injured and aggrieved; but we will not oppose you, we will not go to war with you.

The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) had gone further than perhaps the resolution on the table would warrant. He says, the adoption of this resolution will go to prevent the taking of any measures which may, in their tendency, lead to war. If gentlemen meant by this, that it was to prevent any measures being taken for the protection of our commerce, the adoption of the resolution would not only declare that we will not go to war, but that we will not take any measures for the defence of our property. It appeared to him that that gentleman had himself given the best reasons for modifying this resolution, so as to make it as little mischievous as possible. For he had told the committee that France had set at naught her treaty with us; but though they have done this, said Mr. P., they have endeavored to justify their depredations, by insisting that, according to that treaty, it was necessary for vessels to carry a rôle d'equipage. Mr. P. added, there was another Order of the French Government which was so contrary to right, so cruel in its consequences, so degrading to this country, and so inhuman in its tendency, that he could not avoid noticing it. It was the decree which declares that every American citizen found on board the privateer of an enemy, shall be considered and treated as a pirate. They pretended to found this Order on our treaty with Great Britain; but he wished gentlemen who thought it justifiable, to turn to that treaty, and see whether there was any thing there which countenanced so violent a measure. But this is not all, the gentleman from Pennsylvania allowed that a decree had lately been passed which violates all the laws of neutral nations, viz; that if the property, manufactures, or produce, of an enemy be found on board a neutral vessel, it shall be good prize. Our Ministers, also, who were commissioned to conciliate, and even to make concessions, though they had been in Paris three months, cap in hand, had not been able to get a hearing. Under all these grievances, what, said he, are we called upon to do? He should not have been surprised if some one, fired with the injuries we have received, had brought forward a proposition for war. But, instead of this, smarting as we are under injuries, our commerce bleeding at every pore, and our country deeply humiliated, we are called upon to say: You have done every thing to injure, insult, and degrade us, but we have deserved it: we will do nothing to oppose you. Though God and nature have given us power, we will not go to war with you, neither on the present occasion, nor on any other, whatever injury you may commit upon us.

However humiliating our conduct might be, he repeated, it would have no effect upon that nation. He did not wish to animadvert upon the conduct of any country; but there was one instance of the treatment which the French Republic has exhibited to an independent State, which he could not help noticing. It was in respect to Venice, which would show, that no humiliation, no concession, would avert the calamity which threatens us, if the rulers of the country are determined upon war. If he was not misinformed, the circumstances of the case were as follows: The Venetians were at peace, and endeavoring to pursue a line of neutrality. A tumult arose in one of their towns, and the populace did, in a barbarous and most unjustifiable manner, massacre a number of French soldiers. This was an injury which called for and deserved atonement. A retaliation took place fully commensurate with the crime. The Venetians made every concession in their power. But the French commander was not satisfied; he took vengeance upon them by overturning their Government—a Government which had stood the test of five hundred years. He should have supposed that the French would now have been satisfied; but the matter did not stop here. The Government being overturned, the people were promised a free Government, and an amelioration of their condition. They were proceeding in the establishment of a Government; but, when the treaty came to be made between the French Republic and the Emperor, he supposed it was thought to be for the interest of that Republic to sacrifice a part of this territory, and to give it up to the Emperor, to take a part to themselves, and to annex another part to the Cisalpine Republic. This was done; and he believed the very part which had committed the offence against the French Government, had been rewarded by being joined to a free Government.

This division of the Venetian territory was not the work of a young officer, elated by victory and conquest, or enraged by the treatment which his soldiers had received. The French Directory had come forward, and, by their decree, had applauded the whole conduct of their General in the most unqualified terms, particularly as to Venice and Genoa. He would not take up the time of the committee by citing the conduct of the French towards the latter Republic. The case of Venice was sufficient to show how little was to be expected from a humiliating conduct.

Mr. Giles thought the gentleman who had just sat down had been less correct in his statements than he usually was. He would allude particularly to one instance. That gentleman says, whatever aggressions and insults may be heaped upon us, the supporters of the resolution will not go to war. The proposition held a directly contrary language. It says: "That, under present circumstances, the United States deem it advisable to remain in a state of peace." [Mr. Pinckney said the reason why he had made this remark was, that yesterday the gentleman himself had said, he should not be for going to war, unless the country was invaded. He, therefore, connected the resolution and this declaration together.] Mr. G. said, he still repeated the same thing; that we ought not to resort to war beyond the limits of the United States. But he drew a contrary inference from this, from that which that gentleman had drawn, because he had accompanied the declaration with another, that he was perfectly ready to prepare to that extent for defence. He would explain the grounds of this opinion. Within our own limits we are capable of making something like exertion, and there, he believed, exertions might be made to advantage. Indeed, one of the propositions, which is connected with the present, goes to this purpose, and therefore with what propriety could the gentleman say, he and those who were of his opinion were not for preparing for defence till the enemy is at the door? Nor could he see any thing like humiliation in this. Nay, he was convinced, if we carried our preparations for defence beyond our own limits, instead of gaining glory or honor, we shall meet with nothing but disgrace, as we are not prepared to make a defence at sea. Indeed, the moment we get beyond our jurisdictional line, defence will become offence, because there will be no evidence by which it can be ascertained by whom the attack commenced. It would, therefore, be unwise to permit ourselves to be placed in this situation. If any object was to be effected by going out to sea, it must be the protection of our commerce with Great Britain; but it was known that the two acts of the British Parliament which took place in January last, if peace continues, may take that trade in a great measure from us. He did not think, therefore, that this was a sufficient object for which to incur so much risk.

At present, said Mr. G. there is a pretty general opinion in the country (and he thought there was much ground for the opinion) that there is a disposition in a part of this House, and in part of the Government, for war; and he thought it was proper to come to a declaration upon the subject. This would not only have a good effect upon our own citizens, but it would convince European powers, that though we were preparing for defence, we were not preparing for war.

Mr. G. said, he was not satisfied with the construction which the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. Dana) had given to that part of the Message which speaks of our situation being changed. He did not believe the President had any reference to the dispositions of the people, but to the state of things generally.

The apprehension of war had already begun to produce disagreeable effects in his part of the country. He had received information that produce had fallen in price, and that the sale was very dull. He was of opinion, therefore, that the proposed declaration, if agreed to, would appease the minds of the people. It was said it would have no good effect upon the Executive Directory. He did not know that it would. But it could have no bad effect; and it might have a good one, for he did not think that body quite so abandoned as some gentlemen thought them.

The gentleman last up had spoken of the partition of Venice. He himself saw it with concern; but where was the difference in crime between the French Republic and the Emperor? Each took a part. But what was all this to the United States? Were they to go to war to avenge this partition? We heard nothing of this kind some years ago, when a partition of Poland took place. For his own part, he wished to leave the powers of Europe to themselves, and to draw ourselves within our own boundary, where we should be fully equal to our defence against any power on earth.

Mr. Harper.—When this resolution was first proposed, it appeared to him to be one of those nugatory measures which might either be agreed to or rejected, without producing any effect; and, until he saw the resistance which was given to the amendment, he remained of the same opinion; but now he found it was to say to the French nation, "you may commit against us injury after injury, and insult after insult, we never will resist you."

If this were not the intention, why resist the amendment? Taking this to be the intention, he should bestow some observations upon it. Gentlemen preached about peace. They cry, "peace, peace," as if we, holding the scale of the world, had the power to preserve it. Do not gentlemen know that peace or war is not in our power? They do know it, and that all in our power is to resist, or submit. Was not the clamor which was heard about peace, in so many words, saying, you must submit, not only to what injuries you have received, but to what you may hereafter receive? Was not every advance, on our part, for an adjustment of differences, met with new injuries and new insults? It would not be denied. If peace was all that gentlemen wanted, they would take the resolution in general terms, as proposed to be amended; but their opposing it shows that they have no objection to hostility, if it be not against the French nation—he would not say whose servants they were desirous of being, but against those whom they dread they are afraid to lift up their finger. And this was the spirit of peace which they wished to preserve—a spirit which he deemed vile submission—a spirit which was afraid to complain, and which met every new insult without murmur.

Mr. H. rejoiced that this amendment was made, because it had unmasked the intentions of the mover and supporters of the original proposition. They were now obliged to avow, it is not peace with all the world which we want, but peace with France—a servile and abject submission to one nation; a nation in behalf of whom they have heretofore been eager of war; for, notwithstanding all their cries at present for peace, peace, when there is no peace, they have on a former occasion been equally zealous for war. All their efforts were then used to involve this country in war, upon the side of the French Republic; but now, when measures of resistance are called for—not against France, but to prevent her from wounding her enemy through our sides—their cry is turned from war to peace. This he repeated, and, if they denied it, he would refer to written accounts of their discourses at that time, which would prove that they had sought war against England, and an alliance, offensive and defensive, with the French Republic. At that time, he and those who generally vote with him, desired peace; and it required all their skill and firmness to preserve it, and much obloquy was thrown upon them on account of their exertions. The ground which he and his friends then took was—let us first try negotiation; if that fail, we will then join you in the war. But these gentlemen were, at that time, all in favor of war measures in the first instance. Whence now this change of spirit? What has become of the spirit of 1794, when it was said to be disgraceful to negotiate, and that it would be base to surrender the independence of our country to a foreign power? He wished he could see the breasts of gentlemen now glow with the patriotism which then animated them; but, instead of this, what do we see? A spirit of the most abject kind; a spirit that would leave all our property unprotected beyond the limits of our territory, so that our commerce, from which is derived five-sixths of our revenue, is to be abandoned, lest, in defending it, we should give offence to the French Republic.

The committee were now told it would be time enough to prepare for war when an invasion of our country was attempted. And why were they told this? Because such an event is not likely to take place. Gentlemen know that all the hostility which France wished to commit against this country may be done by destroying our commerce. But they are disposed to surrender this part of our rights, rather than resist; and what security had we that, if the country were invaded, these gentlemen would then resist? He apprehended that the same spirit which led them now to submit, would continue to actuate them.

Last year gentlemen were opposed to doing any thing which should alter the state of things. If this negotiation, said they, fail, we will then join you in active measures. But now, when that time is come, they tell us we must still sink lower, and become more degraded. We are to be contented, not only to see our ships captured, our property destroyed, our sailors led in chains, our revenue annihilated, but we must see the army of the enemy attempt to land, before we will resist.

Mr. H. said he would bring his proofs, to show that those gentlemen who are now so loud in their calls for peace, were heretofore the supporters of a war system. For this purpose, he adduced Mr. Monroe's view of the conduct of the Executive of the United States, which, he said, was a publication which had met with the most unbounded and enthusiastic applauses from all the party; and he read from it an extract of a letter from Mr. Monroe to our Secretary of State, dated Paris, September 10, 1796, pages 209 and 210 of the book, in which he states it to be his opinion, "that if a suitable attempt be made to engage the aid of the French Government in support of our claims upon England, it may be accomplished; and that to secure success, it will be necessary to take the posts and invade Canada."

Would any man, said Mr. H., who shall read this passage, say that the system of these gentlemen is a peace system? And besides this proposition for taking the posts and invading Canada, the same gentleman proposes an advance to France of five millions of dollars. Yet these are the gentlemen who now are willing to say to France, "We will not fight you; we give you license to do us all the injury you please. You may fit out half a dozen frigates, which will be able to block up our ports; and we give you this notice that you may effect your purpose with little expense, and not prepare a large fleet for the purpose."

The gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Giles,) whose zeal for keeping this country in an absolutely defenceless state, has surpassed all the zeal he ever before displayed, except that which he had shown on a former occasion for bringing us into war, has told us that peace is the best thing we can have; and that it would be knight-errantry to attempt to defend our property at sea. After our Ministers have been sent off, and a decree passed which must destroy our commerce, and which had been already allowed to be just cause of war, this was the language of that gentleman on the present occasion. To show this gentleman's consistency, and because his language was at that time so spirited, so American, and carried with it so much force and energy, he could not forbear reading an extract from his speech on the 28th of March, 1794, upon Mr. Dayton's motion to sequestrate British debts. The question was not then whether we should arm for our defence, but whether we should make an attempt at negotiation. The arguments of the gentleman were, it is true, somewhat misplaced, though they were nevertheless patriotic and admirable; and he could not account for the strange contrast of his present sentiments on any other ground than that he believed the true interest of this country was only to be effected by a treaty of alliance with France and war with her enemy. Gentlemen who were on a former occasion in favor of spirited measures in defence of our rights, and were on this occasion the same, are consistent; though their arguments might not altogether be properly timed, yet they were radically right.

Mr. H. said, he would bring another example to the view of the committee. He meant that of Switzerland. Attempt after attempt had been made by France on the independence of that country. After going a variety of lengths, they effected their purpose of driving from thence that unfortunate class of men, the emigrants, who had been persecuted by those who had usurped all authority in France, and who sought the rights of hospitality amongst them. New aggressions were made; they took possession of a part of the Swiss territory, and displaced their magistrates. Seeing that every submission invited fresh insult, they united, hand in hand, took up arms, and reinstated the magistrates who had been displaced, and resolved to live free or die. What was the consequence of this spirited conduct? The French withdrew from their territory, disavowed the measures of their General, and declared that they desired nothing more than to leave the Swiss in full possession of their rights.

Let us, said Mr. H., take warning by this energetic example of the Swiss. Let us now begin to resist. Let us declare that we wish to preserve peace with all the world; that we allow that peace is good, but that we believe independence is better; that peace is desirable, but not at any price—and then France will relinquish her aggressions.

At this point the committee rose and had leave to sit again.

Thursday, March 29.

Relations with France.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and the amendment to the first resolution moved by Mr. Sprigg, as to the inexpediency, under existing circumstances, of resorting to war against the French Republic, which amendment is, to strike out the words "French Republic," being under consideration,

Mr. Giles rose. It would be recollected, he said, that yesterday an attack had been made upon him, as indecent in its manner as it was in itself novel and unprecedented. He had been eight years in Congress, but he never before heard so direct and personal an attack. He was pleased, however, that it had been made, and only regretted that his state of health was such as, he feared, would not suffer him to go so fully into a refutation of the charges which had been brought against him as he could wish. He should, however, state such circumstances as would not only disprove the facts alleged against him, but also prove that the reverse of them was true. In doing which, he begged to be corrected if he should misstate any thing.

The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Harper) had said "that it had been the object of himself and his associates, but particularly of himself, since the year 1794, to go to war with Great Britain, if possible, and to enter into a treaty of alliance, offensive and defensive, with France." This charge he declared to be entirely void of truth. He knew that slanders of this kind had been circulated in an artful manner through the United States from that time to the present, but he never before heard the charge publicly made. Being made, he would refute it, though it had been the foundation of two long speeches of that gentleman; for, whenever slander assumes an erect front, it is dissipated by the first ray of truth which meets it.

He trusted he should prove, by a reference to the debate which had already been quoted, and to others, that he had never been in favor of a war with Great Britain; and as to an alliance, offensive and defensive, with France, he never heard such a proposition in private conversation, and it will be allowed that no such proposition was ever publicly made.

The inconsistency of his conduct had been spoken of. The gentleman from South Carolina said it was unaccountable to him how the author of such animated sentiments as were delivered by him, (Mr. G.,) in 1794, could now utter sentiments so grovelling and pitiful as those heard from him. He wished the gentleman had selected the passages to which he alluded, as he himself was unconscious of any difference between those which he then delivered and his present sentiments. From the year 1794 to the present period, he had uniformly declared it to be his opinion "that war is justifiable only in case of self-defence."

If boldness of assertion and dogmatism of expression would have availed, the gentleman from South Carolina must have been victorious; but he would beg to turn the attention of the committee to facts. That gentleman had first introduced the book of Mr. Monroe, the sentiments of which, he said, certain gentlemen, by their approbation of it, had adopted as their own. Mr. G. said he had read the book, and had found a great deal to commend in it, and little to condemn. Human nature was liable to err. If the gentleman himself were to review his own political history, he doubted whether it would be found to be always consistent. There might have been errors in Mr. Monroe's Ministry, but he believed they would be found to be as few as ever attended a negotiation which was encompassed with so many difficulties.

What, he asked, was the letter which the gentleman read from his book? It was a letter dated December 5, 1794. This was not a letter from Mr. Monroe to his associates, but to the Secretary of State; and, if any conspiracy was intended, General Washington and his Secretaries must have been the conspirators. He saw nothing more in this letter than a suggestion of what might be done if the Government thought proper. Mr. G. stated the situation of things at that time. In the autumn of 1794 the President laid before Congress a communication stating that nothing further could be done between this country and Great Britain by way of negotiation, and what remained to be done was left to Congress. There never was so threatening a state of affairs between Great Britain and this country, since the revolution, as at that period. At the time, therefore, when Mr. Monroe wrote the letter in question, he could not possibly know the state of affairs here, or whether they would come to an amicable settlement, and it was right in him, and it would have been criminal not to have done it, to state what it was likely might be done by France in our favor in case of extremities. He would only add one further remark, as he should have occasion to defend himself more than Mr. Monroe, which was, that he was at least as honorable a character as any of his calumniators; that while he was in France he effected much good, and that since he came away we had experienced much injury. If gentlemen would examine the state of things when he first went to France, what our situation was when he came away, and what it is now, he thought this would appear evident.

The gentleman from South Carolina, doubtless, after examining all the remarks he could find of his, had brought forward a debate which took place in 1794. To follow the gentleman would be a disagreeable task; but as it would serve to elucidate a truth which it was necessary to unfold, he should undertake it, and show that, instead of these remarks being in favor of war, they were founded in the most zealous wish for peace, Mr. G. proceeded to read his remarks on Mr. Dayton's motion for a sequestration of British debts, which, as the mover would recollect, he said, was a mere arrestation of British debts, which was proposed as a preventive of war, by holding in our hands what was within our power, as a pledge for the good behavior of that country, in order to preserve peace. Mr. G. stated the situation of things to be different from that which Mr. Harper had represented it to be, as the Legislature had no knowledge of any negotiation being set on foot with Great Britain at that time. This debate took place on the 28th of March, when they had been informed by the President that nothing further could be done by him, and the negotiation was not heard from until the 19th of April following. A part of the system proposed was an embargo, and another a suspension of intercourse with Great Britain. This bill passed this House, but was negatived in the Senate, by the casting vote of the Vice President who is now the President of the United States; and if this bill had been carried into a law, the other regulation for arresting the British debts would evidently have been a proper measure.

Mr. G. did not believe that we stood upon such unequivocal ground with respect to France as we formerly stood upon with respect to Great Britain. This had long been his opinion; and though we have heavy complaints to make against France, they were not without just complaints against us, arising principally from the operation of the British Treaty, that fatal instrument to the United States.

Mr. G. read some of the articles of the treaty, and his former remarks thereon, and denied that there was any well-founded apprehension of war at the time it was under discussion. He also noticed the assertion which had frequently been made, of the French Directory receiving lessons from this country, which, he said, was too absurd to be believed.

Though he thought France had just ground of complaint against this country, he did not mean to justify her conduct towards us. He thought she ought to have received our Ministers; and, if they had not agreed, to have taken such measures as they thought proper. But this is supposing our Ministers clothed with sufficient powers; if they were not, there would be some ground of justification for their conduct. The President of the United States is in the possession of information which would satisfy the Congress and the people in this respect, but he has thought proper to withhold it, and therefore he alone is responsible. There was one circumstance, he said, very unaccountable in this business. The President informed the House that he had received certain papers, and says, "I have considered these papers; I have deliberated upon them; I have not sent them to you, but require you to act upon them; I call upon you to take energetic measures, and request you will provide sufficient revenue." The House has been thus obliged to take up the subject in the dark. Is this, said he, a desirable state for the Legislature to be placed in? Is it not rather a degraded state? He thought it was; and when party rage shall subside, and it shall be seen that the Executive is pursuing hostile measures, and keeping back all information from Congress, this conduct would be deemed extraordinary. He was far from saying the Executive had not done what was proper. He could not say so, because he had seen no evidence upon which to form a judgment; but it left a strong impression on his mind that something was not correct, which was the reason the expected papers were not sent.

He also again referred to what the President says in his late Message with respect to the change of circumstances, which he still thinks he meant to apply to a change from neutrality in the country to something like war. And in these circumstances, said he, are the people of the United States to be led on from step to step, until they are irrevocably involved in war? And are the people to be told that this is a trifling question? When all the country is in commotion, and when the people are preparing their petitions for peace, (which he thought very proper,) he was not willing to proceed until the present question was decided.

He would suggest another idea. He had heard a variety of observations from different quarters, that at a period not very far distant from the present, a more intimate connection between this country and Great Britain than at present exists, is likely to take place. And yet gentlemen are perpetually crying, What! give up your independence! Do you prefer peace to independence? He would answer, No; for independence he should be ready at all times to make war. But are we, said he, called upon to fight for speculative independence, and, at the same time, willing to commit our real independence to the mercy of another nation? Where, he asked, is the difference between depending upon the French or British nation? Except, indeed, (as he believed was the speculative opinion of some gentlemen,) there was an intention of assimilating the British and American Governments.

Gentlemen talked of newspapers. He would say a word on that subject. There are two papers, said he, printed in this city, which not only breathe defensive, but offensive war of the worst kind. One of these papers, he believed, was particularly countenanced by the Government; the other was printed by an infamous scoundrel, a British subject—a paper which he was sorry to find too much countenanced. This paper not only breathes war, but exterminating war. And this paper issued from a British press, spreads its baneful sentiments throughout the country. He proclaimed this fact; and he should think himself a traitor to his country, not to proclaim it.

Mr. G. would say a few words as to the effect which the late French decree would be likely to produce upon this country. The committee had been told, by the gentleman from South Carolina, that it would effectually destroy our revenue. He believed he was mistaken in this. To France and to those nations who may be supposed to be under her influence, we last year exported to the amount of $36,000,000, and to Great Britain $8,000,000; two-thirds of which are re-exported to the countries above mentioned.

Against whom, then, are we to arm? Against those who receive $36,000,000, for the protection of the $8,000,000, two-thirds of which are re-exported. How, he asked, would this operate? Would the decree stop the importation of British goods? No, it might lessen them, but would not stop them, as the British would become, in some measure, their own carriers; and, as their vessels paid a higher duty in our ports than our own, it is probable our revenue would not be greatly lessened. It was possible, however, that there might be some abuse of the decree in carrying it into execution.

He was as much opposed to the decree of the Executive Directory as any man, but not so much on account of any loss we shall sustain from it, as from its being an attack upon our neutral rights, which he preferred to money. The British Treaty had authorized two acts that took place in January last, which will transfer the carrying trade from American to British vessels; but those acts will not affect our vessels going to France, Spain, or Holland. He supposed, therefore, that our commerce would not be very materially injured by the French Decree. He did not know but it would even be upon a better footing than at present, as there would be more security for it. At any rate, no rash measures ought to be taken, until we see how the decree is to be executed.

He trusted the gentleman from South Carolina was, by this time, pretty well satisfied as to the inaccuracy of his statement. Before gentlemen make charges of inconsistency against others, they should be sure that they themselves stand firm in that respect. That gentleman ought to have looked back upon his own conduct in 1792 and 1793. He had been informed that that gentleman was at that time a member of an affiliated society of Jacobins. [Mr. Harper said it was not true.] He believed, however, all the gentlemen who knew him at that time would do him the credit to say, that he was one of the most eloquent declaimers of that day in favor of the rights of man. But his inconsistency had even appeared within these two days. When the present proposition was first laid on the table, he rejoiced that there was a prospect of all uniting in manifesting a disposition for peace; but the next day he used arguments which went to the destruction of the resolution.

The gentleman from Massachusetts (Gen. Shepard) had made a remark which he must notice; it was, that he assumed to dictate to others what was proper to be done. Of this he was not justly chargeable. That gentleman told the committee he was a warrior; he venerated him as such—he was a warrior in a glorious cause; but whilst he venerated him as a soldier, he had to regret the political prejudices under which he labored, which could suffer him to attribute a motive of that kind to him. The gentleman from New York (Mr. Brooks) had also told the committee he had also been in service in the Revolution. This he did not know before he heard it from the gentleman himself. But he had since been told he was engaged in the honorable and humane employment of clothier to the army. [Mr. Brooks said, he had the honor of taking up arms in the defence of his country, which he carried until he was taken prisoner. He was a prisoner eighteen months, and when he was set at liberty he found his vacancy was not preserved for him. He then served his country in a different line, and he believed in a manner which entitled him to at least as much merit as he had assumed. He believed that providing the army with clothing was an essential part of the service; but, (said he, with great warmth,) if the gentleman doubts my being a soldier, I am here to answer him. A loud cry of order, and Mr. B. sat down.]

Mr. G. said, he had received this information from one of the gentleman's friends. He made the inquiry, because he did not know what services he had performed; and he assured him the information which he had received had tended to raise, rather than to sink him in his estimation; but he was not alarmed at being told he was a soldier.

It had been said of the resolution before the committee, that by stating we are not ready to resort to war against the French Republic, that it might be implied we are ready to go to war with some other nation. That this idea might be done away, if gentlemen will permit the words "against the French Republic" to remain. If the mover would give his consent, he should have no objection to add the words, "or any other nation."

Mr. Harper hoped, as he had been particularly alluded to by the gentleman who had just sat down, he should not be considered as trespassing on the patience of the committee in an unreasonable manner, if he made a few remarks in reply, though he did not mean to do it generally, as he perceived others had undertaken to do that, whom he was conscious were better able to do it than himself. He was called up merely by the gentleman's personal observations.

In the first place, he was charged with great indecency in bringing forward and commenting upon the gentleman's own speech. He left it to the committee to determine with what propriety this complaint came from a person who has omitted no opportunity of attributing the worst of motives, not only to gentlemen in that House, but to others out of it; neither age, character, nor absence, have preserved gentlemen from his censure; from a person who has always indulged himself in the most violent philippics against the Executive of the United States, and all who concurred in his measures; from a person who, when gentlemen declare they are for peace, says he does not believe them; from a person who has continually charged all those with inconsistency who differed in opinion from him, not by examining their conduct, but by making insinuations against them as to their debts, or to the way in which they may have acquired money, or by following them to their youth, before they became members of this House? He thought the gentleman ought to attend to the old, but just adage, "He who lives in a glass house ought not to be the first to throw stones." If there could be a man more regardless than that gentleman of all the rules of decorum in debate, he had never heard him.

As to the charge of inconsistency in his conduct, it had often been made in private, and as often contradicted; but as it is now brought into public view, he would say a few words on that point.

It was said, that in 1791 and 1792, he was a member of a Jacobin society, and a warm declaimer in favor of the rights of man. What was said respecting his being a member of a Jacobin society, is one of those falsehoods of party, which, though known to be unfounded, is still reported.

The fact, Mr. H. said, was this, which he never concealed: In the year 1791, there were instituted in Charleston a variety of clubs, (there were several before that time;) of many of these, being a young practitioner of the law, and desirous of extending his acquaintance; and procuring business, he was a member. Among these was a society called a Patriotic Society. It was composed of French and American citizens; and he and seven or eight other young practitioners became members, and attended one or two evenings; but, finding it composed of persons from whose society much improvement could not be expected, they never went afterwards; and so anti-jacobinic was their conduct considered, that they merited and received an expulsion from the society.

As to being a declaimer in favor of the rights of man in 1791 and 1792, he owned he partook of that enthusiasm which at that time raged in America, because he was deceived. He then believed the French had been unjustifiably attacked, but he now found that they were the first assailants. He then believed that the treaties of Pilnitz[30] and Pavia, of which they had heard so much, were realities; but he now found them contemptible forgeries. With respect to other parts of the French Revolution, he then believed that the principal actors in it were virtuous patriots, but he had since discovered that they were a set of worthless scoundrels and mad-headed enthusiasts, who, in endeavoring to reduce their fallacious schemes to practice, have introduced more calamities into the world, than ages of good government will be able to cure.

Mr. H. said, he never was a declaimer in favor of what gentlemen meant by the rights of man. He held them and their author in merited contempt. The pretended factitious rights of man to which gentlemen referred, were the rights of a few noisy demagogues over the rights of the people. Though he always believed this, he did not know it so well, in 1791 and 1792, as he knew it in 1794, and since. And, therefore, he was not a declaimer in favor of what the gentlemen mean by the rights of man, but he was a warm admirer of the French Revolution, when he thought the object was the establishment of the true rights of man; but, since he discovered that this was neither the object nor would it be the effect, instead of viewing that Revolution as a blessing to the world, which he once thought it, he now viewed it as the greatest curse that ever afflicted mankind; as a phial of wrath from Heaven, the bitterest that ever was poured out upon the earth.

There was a certain species of the rights of man of which he had always been the defender, in favor of which his voice would always be heard. He had, in a well-known instance, advocated the rights of his fellow-citizens in the best manner he was able, and in a manner which had obtained for him their thanks and their remembrance. How he conducted that defence, was well known to some of his colleagues in that House.

Mr. H. denied that he had been inconsistent with respect to the proposition before the committee. He then noticed what had fallen from Mr. Giles with respect to the decree of the French Directory not being so inimical to this country as it had been supposed to be. Mr. H. charged Mr. G. with being much mistaken in supposing that only the amount of eight millions of dollars was exported to Great Britain and her dominions, or that thirty-six millions of dollars were exported to France, and to countries connected with her. Out of the fifty-one millions exported from this country during last year, it appeared by the statement before them that eight millions five hundred thousand were sent to Great Britain; nine millions to the Hanse towns; to France and her dominions eleven millions. But, he asked if the gentleman from Virginia knew the reason why this amount to France appeared so large? If not, he would tell him. All the produce shipped for the British West Indies in 1797, was almost constantly cleared out for French ports, in order to avoid the effects of the plundering decrees of the French West Indies, and this was the reason why six or seven millions appeared under this head, which ought to appear under another. But the gentleman seemed to suppose that all which did not go to Great Britain went to France, and countries connected with her. At least twenty millions, out of fifty-one millions, went to countries over whom France had no power; and, when to these were added what was sent to Great Britain, and six or seven millions were deducted on the ground he had mentioned, the gentleman would find the balance was not very considerable.

Mr. H. said he should not notice what the gentleman had chosen to say respecting the British Minister, except as to the improper manner in which he had called a confidential person a confidential agent of the Minister, and to say that he could not see any analogy between this case and that of the French Minister, who fitted out privateers and levied troops in our country without permission from the President of the United States.

The gentleman from Virginia had entered fully, not only into a justification of himself, but of his friends. How far he has acquitted himself and them from the weighty charges which he had exhibited, he was not the proper person to judge; he left the public to determine. He must, however, beg leave to correct him in one of his facts. He informed the committee that the letter of Mr. Monroe, which had been quoted, was written in December, 1794, whereas it was dated Paris, September 10, 1795, long after that Minister had been officially informed by our Minister in London, that the British Treaty was concluded and signed; yet this letter recommends the taking of the posts, the invasion of Canada, and the cutting up of the British commerce by privateers. He did not say that this letter was a proof of conspiracy, but of a system of policy which was very contrary to a peace system.

But the gentleman says, he (Mr. G.) never proposed war against Great Britain. He knew it. The gentleman always spoke of peace, but pursued measures which led to war. He did not speak of war when he recommended sequestrations, confiscations, &c., because he loved peace. He did not talk of war; but, whilst he and his friends opposed measures of defence, they were in favor of every measure which led to war. While they were irritating a nation to war, they opposed the building of the frigates. He could not say what were the views of gentlemen in doing this, but he would say what appearance it had on his mind, when he was far removed from the seat of Government. He thought it seemed as if gentlemen believed it would be well to get to war, and then rely upon their favorite nation for support.

Mr. Brooks again complained of the insinuation which Mr. Giles had thrown out against him, which he said was not called for by any circumstances under consideration.

Mr. Giles assured him he mentioned the fact alluded to, out of no disrespect to him. With respect to the date of Mr. Monroe's letter, he had been deceived by a leaf being folded down at the letter, the date of which he had mentioned. The gentleman had said that he had attributed improper motives to the President of the United States. This he denied. He had said, he took measures which he did not approve, and he hoped a difference of opinion from any man would not be imputed to him as a crime. With respect to the explanation which the gentleman had given of his own conduct, he was glad to hear it. It was to obtain this explanation, that he mentioned the reports which he had heard. Mr. G. renewed the assertion, that he and his friends always had been willing to put the nation in a state of defence. As to the frigates, he gloried in his vote against them; but with respect to the use of them, the gentleman was mistaken. They were intended to be sent against the Algerines only.

Friday, March 30.

Relations with France.

Mr. Allen observed, that when the President of the United States sent his first Message to the House, announcing the receipt of despatches from our Commissioners in Paris, he stated that it would take some time to decipher the despatches which he had received. Some days afterwards, on the 19th instant, he sent another Message informing the House, "that it was incumbent on him to declare that he saw no ground of expectation that the object of their mission could be accomplished on terms compatible with the safety, honor, or the essential interests of the nation."

It had been observed, in the course of the debate in the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and not in the most candid and proper manner, that the papers received from our Commissioners ought to have been laid before the House, and the President had been charged with withholding them. He supposed gentlemen would have been satisfied, and he was, with the information which the President had already communicated, that our Commissioners are not received, and that France refuses to hear us. But, though he was himself satisfied with the information he had at present, he believed there were many gentlemen in the House who wished for more, because there is a paper printed in this city, which is continually insinuating that there is something in these despatches which, if they were made known, would show that the conduct of the Executive has been improper; because he found that paper often speaking the language of gentlemen in this House, and which spoke it, he believed, on this occasion; and because, if this is not true, he wished the people to be undeceived; or if true, that he and those who thought with him, that no such blame existed, might be convinced of their error; he proposed the following resolution, to which he hoped there would be no objection:

"Resolved, That the President of the United States be requested to communicate to this House the despatches from the Envoys Extraordinary of the United States to the French Republic, mentioned in his Message of the 19th instant, or such parts thereof as considerations of public safety and interest, in his opinion, may permit."

Mr. S. Smith said, he should have no objection to the resolution, if the latter part of it was struck out. If the President thought it necessary that any part of the correspondence ought to be kept secret, he would, as is usual in such cases, inform the House that this was the case, and the galleries would accordingly be cleared. The communication would then probably be referred to a select committee, and such parts of it published as might appear proper.

Mr. Allen observed, that there might be parts of this correspondence which it would not be proper to communicate to this House, even confidentially. If this was not the case, the President could still communicate such part of the correspondence in confidence as he may think proper. He wished to leave the President to act according to his discretion. Without some portion of this discretion being allowed him, the Government could not proceed.

Mr. Giles said, no part of the correspondence ought to be kept from Congress. He was not himself satisfied as to the sincerity of the proceedings of the Executive of the United States towards France; he wished, therefore, not only to have the correspondence of our Ministers, but the instructions which were given to them. Mr. G. defended what he had yesterday said about the President and these papers, and hoped if the House called for the papers at all, they would call for all the papers, and the instructions upon which our Ministers acted.

Mr. Livingston moved to amend the resolution by striking out all the words after the 19th instant, and insert after the words "this House," "the instructions to and." This was not a time, Mr. L. said, to stand upon trifling punctilios, which might be proper upon ordinary occasions. They were now called upon to say whether the country should be preserved in peace or go to war; yet the correspondence, which ought to convince the House of the propriety of acting in this or that way, is withheld. How could they say to their constituents, without this information, all has been done that could be done to preserve the country in peace, but war was inevitable? And if war is rushed into headlong, without due consideration, and consequently without ascertaining whether it is just or not, can it be expected that the wishes and aids of the people will be heartily engaged in such a war? They certainly would not.

It would be no answer to say that our negotiation with a foreign power would by this means be exposed. The communication might be made with closed doors, and no one could suppose any thing would be exposed by the members of the Legislature which the good of the country requires to be kept secret. But gentlemen wish this House to repose the strictest confidence in one branch of the Government, at the same time that they say no confidence can be placed in the integrity of this House. [Mr. Allen exclaimed, who said it?] Mr. L. replied, that this was a fair inference from what had been said.

The latter part of the resolution proposed to transfer a right to the President, which it ought itself to exercise, as to judging of what it was proper to publish in consideration of the public safety and interest. If this power was given to the President, he might withhold such parts of the papers as might prevent a correct judgment being formed upon them. He was not himself disposed to cede to the President the right which he was sent there to exercise for his constituents, of judging of so important a question, as a question of peace or war. He could not basely surrender this right. If the papers were called for at all, he hoped the whole would be called for, in order that the House might form that sound and temperate judgment for which the present crisis so loudly calls, and for which the people of the United States so anxiously look. Indeed, to pass the resolution unamended, would, in his opinion, be a shameful dereliction of their rights.

Mr. Bayard thought the propriety of this call upon the President was extremely doubtful, and, as it regarded the instructions given to our Ministers, wholly improper. With respect to the communication of the despatches, it was wholly a matter of Executive discretion to judge whether it would be proper to communicate them or not. He was one of those who had so much confidence in the Executive, as to trust to his candor, understanding, and integrity, to determine upon the propriety of what he should send to, or withhold from, this House. At a time when it is not known that our negotiation with France is closed, it would be extremely imprudent to have the instructions of our Ministers laid before this House; as what was sent here, notwithstanding any vote of secrecy, would not long be kept secret. It would soon be in Europe, and might do us essential injury, by disclosing our ultimatum to France, and by showing it also to the world. It was in vain, Mr. B. said, to suppose that one hundred men could keep a secret for any length of time, however important it might be. To elucidate that assertion, he referred to the divulging the secret of the British Treaty by a Senator.

But the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Giles) has no confidence in the Government of this country with respect to its negotiation with France; and in order to try the sincerity of the Executive, he wishes for the papers. Does the gentleman by this mean to give the lie to the Executive? Because in his Message he has told the House that he has given power to our Ministers to settle our disputes with the French Republic, and to "make all reasonable concessions." What more does the gentleman wish? Does he wish unreasonable concessions to be made? Surely he does not. Did any thing appear in the conduct of the French Directory to show that our Ministers were not possessed of ample powers? No; the Directory never knew any thing about their powers, at least so far as any official communications had been received on the subject. There could not, therefore, be any ground upon which the gentleman could rest his suspicions. He hoped, therefore, the amendment would be negatived.

Two or three gentlemen were on the floor together.

The Speaker said, the amendment to insert "the instructions to and," would come first under consideration.

Mr. Harper said, he did not mean at this time to enter into the merits of the present question. It was important, and presented itself in a new light to the House. The original motion he was ready to have voted for; he did not know whether he might not vote for this. But he wished time to consider of it. He therefore moved the further consideration of this question be postponed till Monday.

Mr. Allen had no objection to the postponement, except the mover of the amendment would permit it to be amended by a modification of this sort: "Such parts of those communications as were communicated to the French Government."

The question for postponement was put and carried—47 to 41.

Monday, April 23.

The Speaker attended to-day, and took the chair.

Stephen Cantrill.

On motion of Mr. W. C. Claiborne, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Secretary of War on the petition of Stephen Cantrill; and the report and papers accompanying it were read. The report was as follows:

"The Secretary of War, to whom was referred the petition of Stephen Cantrill, respectfully reports: That the services for which the petitioner prays compensation to himself and a company which he commanded, were performed in the month of September, 1794, on an expedition conducted by Major James Orr, into the Lower Cherokee country, which issued in the destruction of two considerable Indian towns, the Running Water and Nickajack, the killing of a number of Indians, and the taking about twenty prisoners.

"That the report of Major Orr to Governor Blount, dated at Knoxville, the 24th September, 1794, shows, that this expedition marched on the 7th of the same month, and was ordered by General Robertson, of Mero district.

"That the orders of General Robertson for this purpose were afterwards communicated by himself to Gov. Blount, in a letter dated the 8th October, 1794, detailing his reasons for the order.

"That letters from Governor Blount to the Secretary of War, dated the 22d of September and 2d of October, 1794, as well as the copy of an order, which he states to have been the last given by him to General Robertson, previous to this expedition, evince that the Governor did not sanction the measure.

"That the Secretary of War, previous to Major Orr's expedition, in a letter to Governor Blount, dated the 26th July, 1794, strongly discouraged the idea of destroying the lower towns of the Cherokees, in the following words, viz: 'With respect to destroying the lower towns, however rigorous such a measure might be, or whatever good consequences might result from it, I am instructed specially by the President to say, that he does not conceive himself authorized to direct any such measure, more especially as the whole subject was before the last session of Congress, who did not think proper to authorize or direct offensive operations.' And that as soon as the destruction of the Running Water and Nickajack was communicated to him, the Secretary strongly disavowed any participation in the business, by his letter to Governor Blount, dated the 22d of December, 1794, in these words, viz: 'The destruction of the lower Cherokee towns stands upon its own footing; that it was not authorized is certain.'

"That the President at all times, as well before as after this expedition, endeavored to confine the protection of the frontier of the South-western Territory to defensive operations, and to restrain from those which were offensive.

"That, on the whole, it appears, the services for which compensation is prayed by the petition of Stephen Cantrill, were performed on an expedition, offensive, unauthorized, and in direct violation of the orders from the President to Governor Blount, by whom also they were not sanctioned.

"The documents referred to, and others connected with the subject, are herewith presented, numbered from No. 1 to 9, inclusive.

"All which is respectfully submitted to the House of Representatives.

"JAMES McHENRY.

"War Office, April, 1798."

The reading being finished, Mr. W. C. Claiborne said, that, in his opinion, this claim was founded on the principles of justice; and he trusted every member who had attended to the reading of the documents, must accord with him in opinion, that the Nickajack expedition, undertaken by Major James Orr, in 1794, into the Lower Cherokee country, was authorized by General Robertson; and it remains now to be decided, whether soldiers shall not be entitled to pay until they have previously assured themselves of the legitimate authority of their commanding officer. At the time when this expedition was set on foot, a war raged between the United States and the Cherokee nation of Indians, the horrors of which bore hard upon the district of Mero; the very existence of the settlement was threatened; scarcely a day passed without some one or other of the inhabitants, or of their acquaintance, being murdered. Information was received that the Indians were embodied in order to carry the war into the settlement. What was the General to do? Was he to stand still without making any attempt to avert the danger? The safety of the people required him to act, and he struck the first blow, which was a defensive measure authorized by the usage of all nations. The citizens on this expedition obeyed the command of their officer; they did not think it necessary to inquire by what authority he acted; all for them to be assured of was, that he was an officer of the United States, and this they well knew, as this was not the first time they had served under him. Without a discipline of this kind no military operation could be carried on. General Robertson acted also under the authority of Governor Blount, who acted under the orders of the President of the United States. Having then performed this duty—a duty, too, which put an end to a war which might have cost the United States a million of dollars—he trusted the petitioners would be compensated for their services. The amount, he believed, would not be more than about $4,000, as the party was out only twelve days. To effect this purpose, he proposed the following resolution for the adoption of the committee:

"Resolved, That the proper officers be directed to settle the accounts of the militia who served on the expedition commanded by Major James Orr against the Cherokee Indians, in the year 1794."

This resolution was agreed to without opposition. The committee rose, and after some few observations, it was agreed to in the House, and a committee appointed to report a bill accordingly.