TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY

The Chairman. The Commission will come to order.

Chief, we have asked you to come here this morning, you and some of your officers, for the purpose of taking their testimony concerning the matters surrounding the arrest and the death of Lee Oswald at the time of the assassination of the President.

I think we will take the testimony of you, Captain Fritz, Lieutenant Day, and Lieutenant Baker. I want to say to you, Chief, before I leave, I will have to leave after an hour or so in order to sit on some cases we are hearing in the Supreme Court but I want to say to you beforehand that our staff was very much pleased with the cooperation that it received from your people when they were down in Dallas, and from the help that you personally gave to them, and made it very helpful, they were very helpful, and we did need to have speed at that particular time, because, as you know, we were obliged to wait until the Ruby trial was over before we could come down there at all.

So, we appreciate the assistance that your people gave us throughout that proceeding.

Now, would you please rise, Chief, and raise your right hand to be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Curry. I do.

The Chairman. Mr. Rankin, our Chief Counsel, will interrogate you, Chief. Mr. Rankin, will you proceed?

Mr. Rankin. Yes; Mr. Chief Justice. Chief Curry, you gave a deposition for the Commission recently, did you not?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I did, sir.

Mr. Rankin. That was about April 15, 1964?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. And that was down in Dallas that you gave it?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Rankin. And Mr. Hubert examined you?

Mr. Curry. That is true.

Mr. Rankin. That was taken down by a court reporter?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have anything to add to what you said at that time or wish to correct it in any way?

Mr. Curry. I can't recall of anything that I should correct or add to.

Mr. Rankin. I ask you those questions in a general way, we will go back to certain parts of that but I would like to proceed at this time in view of the fact that the Chief Justice and possibly other members of the Commission who will come may not be able to be here all the time that you are being examined and I would like to get to certain crucial matters if I may.

When did you learn of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Curry. While I was out at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know about what time that was, the day?

Mr. Curry. It was on the 22d and the best I recall it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little after 1 o'clock.

Mr. Rankin. How did that come to your attention?

Mr. Curry. Some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a suspect in the shooting of our Officer Tippit.

Mr. Rankin. What else did they say?

Mr. Curry. They also told me a little later, I believe, that he was a suspect also in the assassination of the President.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do then?

Mr. Curry. I didn't do anything at the time. I was at the hospital, and I remained at the hospital until some of the Secret Service asked me to prepare two cars that we were informed that President Kennedy had expired and we were requested to furnish two cars for President Johnson and some of his staff to return to Love Field.

Mr. Rankin. Did you do that?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I did.

Mr. Rankin. What else—what did you do after that?

Mr. Curry. After the planes departed from Love Field, I was there for the inauguration of the President, and then we left the plane, and Judge Sarah Hughes and myself, and I remained at Love for some, I guess perhaps an hour.

Mr. Rankin. By inauguration, you mean the swearing in of the President?

Mr. Curry. That is right, sir.

Mr. Rankin. On the plane?

Mr. Curry. On the plane; yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then you left Love Field?

Mr. Curry. I talked to Mayor Cabell and his wife for a little while and after the plane left Love Field then I left Love Field.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go with Judge Hughes or she go with you?

Mr. Curry. No; she was in her own car.

Mr. Rankin. I see.

Mr. Curry. And I returned to the city hall.

Mr. Dulles. Did I understand correctly, how long were you at Love Field after the plane of the President left?

Mr. Curry. As I recall it was approximately an hour.

Mr. Dulles. That is what I thought.

Mr. Curry. We waited there until the casket bearing the President, and then the cars bearing Mrs. Kennedy arrived, and it was, I would judge an hour perhaps.

Mr. Rankin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Curry. I returned to my office at city hall.

Mr. Rankin. Did you do anything about Lee Harvey Oswald at that time?

Mr. Curry. No. As I went into the city hall it was overrun with the news media.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do about that?

Mr. Curry. I didn't do anything. They were jammed into the north hall of the third floor, which are the offices of the criminal investigation division. The television trucks, there were several of them around the city hall. I went into my administrative offices, I saw cables coming through the administrative assistant office and through the deputy chief of traffic through his office, and running through the hall they had a live TV set up on the third floor, and it was a bedlam of confusion.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone of the police department give them permission to do this?

Mr. Curry. I noticed—well, I don't know who gave them permission because I wasn't there. When I returned they were up there.

Mr. Rankin. Did you inquire about whether permission had been given?

Mr. Curry. No; I didn't. We had in the past had always permitted free movement of the press around the city hall but we had never been faced with anything like this before where we had national and international news media descending upon us in this manner.

Mr. Rankin. Could you describe to the Commission the difference this time as compared with the ordinary case that you have handled?

Mr. Curry. Well, the ordinary case, perhaps we have two or three or maybe a half dozen reporters, we have a room for them on the third floor where they normally on assignment at city hall they stay in this room.

As prisoners are brought to and from the interrogation offices, it is necessary to bring them down the main corridor, and they usually are waiting there where they take pictures of them as they enter and as they leave and they sometimes try to ask them questions.

Mr. Rankin. Now, how was this different?

Mr. Curry. That there was such total confusion here. We had to post men on the door to keep them actually from going into the office where they were interrogating. We had some men, police reserves and a sergeant, I noticed on the third floor when I come off the elevator.

They were stationed there, and they were screening people to see whether or not they had business on the third floor because we did have to carry on our other normal business, the burglary and theft and the juvenile bureau and the auto theft bureau, the forgery bureau all of these are on the third floor in this wing.

The Chairman. Chief, is this building just a police building or a municipal building, general purposes?

Mr. Curry. It is a section of the municipal building.

The Chairman. A section of it. Is it isolated from the rest of it?

Mr. Curry. No; it is connected.

The Chairman. Connected?

Mr. Curry. Yes. And on the first floor we have the courts and the traffic violations bureau.

In the basement it is principally police offices. On the second floor we have the city planning commission, and we have part of our traffic division and special service bureau on the second floor.

Then on the third floor we have the criminal investigation division. We have the police dispatcher's office, and we have the administrative offices and we have the personnel offices.

The Chairman. I see.

Mr. Curry. But all these are connected with the municipal building, each floor is.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I did not. I was in the office once or twice while he was being interrogated but I never asked him any question myself.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who did?

Mr. Curry. Captain Fritz principally interrogated him, I believe.

Mr. Rankin. Was that his responsibility?

Mr. Curry. Yes; it was. There were several people in the office. It seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the method by which we had to interrogate.

Mr. Rankin. Will you explain to the Commission what you mean by that?

Mr. Curry. Ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there.

Mr. Rankin. Is that your regular practice?

Mr. Curry. That is the regular practice.

Mr. Rankin. Tell us how this was done?

Mr. Curry. This we had representatives from the Secret Service, we had representatives from the FBI, we had representatives from the Ranger Force, and they were—and then one or two detectives from the homicide bureau. This was, well, it was just against all principles of good interrogation practice.

Mr. Rankin. By representatives can you tell us how many were from each of these agencies that you describe?

Mr. Curry. I can't be sure. I recall I believe two from the FBI, one or two, Inspector Kelley was there from Secret Service, and I believe another one of his men was there. There was one, I recall seeing one man from the Rangers. I don't recall who he was. I just remember now that there was one.

Captain Fritz, and one or two of his detectives—this was in a small office.

Mr. Rankin. Did you do anything about this when you found out there were so many, did you give any instructions about it?

Mr. Curry. No; I didn't. This was an unusual case. In fact, I had received a call from the FBI requesting that they have a representative from there in the hearing room. And we were trying to cooperate with all agencies concerned in this, and I called Captain Fritz and asked him to permit a representative of the FBI to come in.

Mr. Dulles. Who was directing the interrogation, Captain Fritz?

Mr. Curry. Captain Fritz.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know how Lee Harvey Oswald was treated by the police department?

Mr. Curry. So far as I know he was treated as any other prisoner is treated. He was not handled in any manner any different from any other prisoner. He had a scratch or two on his face which he received when he was wrestling with the police over in this theater in Oak Cliff. Other than that he had no marks on him.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever complain that you know of about his treatment while he was there?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Rankin. Did you give any instructions about the security or how he should be protected during this time?

Mr. Curry. No; I personally didn't. Deputy Chief Lumpkin, who has charge of the service division which is the jail security, he told me that he had ordered that two guards be placed on him right outside his cell and kept there 24 hours a day as long as we had him.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what was done about that?

Mr Curry. It was carried out. He told me that this was carried out.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any further difficulty with the media, the various press and radio and television representatives during this time?

Mr. Curry. Well, every time we would walk out of the office they would besiege you with questions and wanting statements and asking what we had found out, and did we think this was the right man, and they almost ran over you.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do about that?

Mr. Curry. I tried to maintain some order. I didn't order them out of the building, which if I had it to do over I would. In the past like I say, we had always maintained very good relations with our press, and they had always respected us, and this was something, the first time we experienced anything like this, to this degree.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any tape recordings of the interviews with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Curry. I do not have.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone?

Mr. Curry. Not to my knowledge. Unless someone from the FBI or the Secret Service, if they recorded it, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. How many times was he interrogated, do you know?

Mr. Curry. No; I do not know that.

Mr. Rankin. You never examined him yourself at any time?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe the place where he was kept while he was there in the jail?

Mr. Curry. Well, it is in one of our maximum security cells, much the same as any other jail. But he was isolated away from the other prisoners, and there was two jail guards set immediately outside his cell.

Mr. Rankin. Did you isolate him or was that in accordance with your instructions?

Mr. Curry. No; this is customary with a prisoner of this type and Chief Lumpkin in charge of the service division had issued these orders.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by maximum security in your prison?

Mr. Curry. Well, we have some cells where they have cells that are locked and then you come out of the cell into a corridor and that is locked, and these are maintained from a master control box. That is a maximum security cell. Some of the others they just have a lock on the door and it opens out into the hallway.

Mr. Rankin. Did you do anything about furnishing him clothing?

Mr. Curry. We removed his clothing except for his underwear in order that he couldn't harm himself. When he was removed from the cell, of course, his clothes were given to him.

Mr. Rankin. Was he allowed to shower and clean up.

Mr. Curry. I don't think he ever asked for a shower while he was there. Had he asked for one he would have been permitted to shower and he would have been permitted to shave.

Mr. Rankin. Was he treated any differently in any way that you know of than other prisoners?

Mr. Curry. Except perhaps a little more security placed on him, a constant security. Ordinarily we wouldn't, except in unusual cases would we have a constant surveillance on a prisoner, and this is usually, if we felt like he might try to harm himself we would have someone there to immediately prevent it.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask a question?

What was Oswald's attitude toward the police? Have you any comment on that?

Mr. Curry. The only things I heard him say, he was very arrogant. He was very—he had a dislike for authority, it seemed, of anyone. He denied anything you asked him. I heard them ask once or twice if this was his picture or something, he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. No; it is not my picture," and this was a picture of him holding a rifle or something. I remember one time they showed him and he denied that being him.

I remember he denied anything knowing anything about a man named Hidell that he had this identification in his pocket or in his notebook, and I believe a postal inspector was in this room at the time, too, and someone asked him about the fact that he had a post office box in the name of Hidell and he didn't know anything about that. He just didn't know anything about anything.

Mr. Rankin. Did it ever come to your attention that he ever asked for or inquired about counsel?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I heard him say something. I asked if he had had an opportunity to use the phone and Captain Fritz told me they were giving him an opportunity to use the phone.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about counsel?

Mr. Curry. As I recall he said he wanted to try to get in touch with John Abt.

Mr. Rankin. A-b-t?

Mr. Curry. A-b-t, I believe an attorney in New York, to handle his case and then if he couldn't get him he said he wanted to get someone from Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do about that?

Mr. Curry. I told them to let him talk to them in an attempt to get his attorney and in an attempt to get some of his relatives so they could arrange for it.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe how it was handled for him to be able to talk on the telephone?

Mr. Curry. We take them from their cells and we have two telephones that they are taken to, and they are put on these telephones and they are locked in, and a guard stands by while they make their calls.

Mr. Rankin. Is that call secret or is there any listening in on it?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; it is not supposed to be secret. I mean it is supposed to be secret. It is privileged communication as far as we are concerned, we don't have a tap on the phone or anything.

Mr. Dulles. Did he use this?

Mr. Curry. Yes; he did.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether an attorney from Dallas was offered to him and came to the jail?

Mr. Curry. There were some members of the Civil Liberties Union came to see us that night, and they said they were concerned with whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel.

Mr. Rankin. Did they talk to you?

Mr. Curry. No; they didn't talk to me. They talked to Professor Webster.

Mr. Rankin. How did this come to your attention?

Mr. Curry. He told me.

Mr. Rankin. I see. Now, tell us what he said.

Mr. Curry. He said that they had come down to see whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel, and Professor Webster is in the law school out at Southern Methodist University and he told them he thought he was being given an opportunity to get in touch with legal counsel, and they seemed satisfied then about it. We also got Mr. Nichols.

Mr. Rankin. Who is he?

Mr. Curry. He was president of the Dallas Bar Association or criminal bar. I don't know which, Louis Nichols, and——

Mr. Rankin. What did he do?

Mr. Curry. He came down, he said he had heard that he was not being allowed the right to counsel, and they wanted to see and so I took him myself up to Lee Harvey Oswald's cell and let him go in the cell and talk to Lee Harvey Oswald.

The Chairman. Who was Mr. Nichols, did you say?

Mr. Curry. Louis Nichols. He was president either of the Dallas——

Dean Storey. Pardon me, it is Dallas Bar Association.

Mr. Curry. Dallas Bar Association.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Curry. He went in to talk to him and to see whether or not he was getting an opportunity to receive counsel and he seemed pleased, I mean he had no complaints. He told him if he didn't get John Abt then he wanted someone from the Civil Liberties Union to come up and talk to him. Then Mr. Nichols then went out in front of the television cameras, I believe and made a statement to the effect that he had talked to him and he was satisfied that he was being given the opportunity for legal counsel.

The Chairman. On what day was this?

Mr. Curry. That was on the same day we arrested him?

The Chairman. That was Friday?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether Mr. Oswald ever did obtain counsel?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe he did. But I do know he made some telephone contacts.

Mr. Rankin. Did the police department so far as you know interfere in any way with his obtaining counsel?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when Lee Harvey Oswald was arraigned?

Mr. Curry. It was about 1:30 in the morning. That would be on the morning of the 23d, I believe.

Mr. Rankin. How long did he—how long had he been in your custody then?

Mr. Curry. About 11 hours. That was on the Tippit; yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. When you say that he was arraigned the following day early in the morning, did you mean for the Tippit murder or for the assassination?

Mr. Curry. No; that was for the assassination of the President.

Mr. Rankin. All right, will you tell us when he was arraigned for the Tippit murder?

Mr. Curry. I was not present but I believe it was about 7:30.

Mr. Rankin. That same evening?

Mr. Curry. Yes; that would be about 5 hours afterwards.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall whether he was arrested first for the assassination or for the Tippit murder?

Mr. Curry. For the Tippit murder. There were some witnesses to this murder and they had observed him as he left the scene, and this was what he was arrested for.

The Chairman. May I interrupt just to ask the chief a question?

Chief, on your arraignments does the magistrate advise the petitioner as to his right to counsel?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; he does.

The Chairman. Does he ask him if he has counsel?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall him doing that. I am not customarily present when a person is arraigned.

The Chairman. You were not present at the arraignment?

Mr. Curry. I was present when he was arraigned for the assassination of the President. I was not present when he was arraigned for the murder of Tippit.

The Chairman. I suppose they make a stenographic record of that, do they not?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; I am sure they do.

The Chairman. That is all I have.

Mr. Rankin. Chief, our people made an inquiry whether there was a stenographic record. They don't believe there was any.

Mr. Curry. I am not sure of that. I know at the time he was arraigned for the assassination of the President I was present there at the time. It was decided that we should, district attorney was there at the city hall. He was there during most of the evening.

Mr. Rankin. Will you just describe for the Commission what happened during the arraignment for the assassination, who was present, what you saw.

Mr. Curry. As I recall, I know the Justice of the Peace David John Stone was there. It seemed like Sergeant Warren, but I couldn't be positive but some of the jail personnel brought him out into the identification bureau.

Mr. Rankin. How was he taken out? Were there several people around him, what was the security arrangements?

Mr. Curry. At that time there was only, we were inside the offices of the criminal identification section. He was brought out through a door that opens from the jail into the criminal identification section. There was only about a half dozen of us altogether there, I don't recall who all was there.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by the criminal identification section. Could you describe what that is?

Mr. Curry. That is the identification bureau.

Mr. Rankin. Does that have a room that this meeting occurred in?

Mr. Curry. It is not a room such as this. It was in the little foyer or lobby, and it is separated from the jail lobby.

Mr. Rankin. Did the justice of the peace sit or stand or what?

Mr. Curry. He stood. He stood on one side of the counter and Oswald on the other side of the counter.

Mr. Rankin. What floor is this on?

Mr. Curry. The fourth floor.

Mr. Rankin. That is nearest the place where there are some filing cabinets?

Mr. Curry. Yes; it is.

Mr. Rankin. And besides the people that you have described, I assume that you yourself were there as you have said?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I was.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anyone else that you recall?

Mr. Curry. Not that I recall, other than the justice of the peace.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe what happened?

Mr. Curry. Lee Harvey Oswald was brought in and the complaint was read to him, and here again he was very arrogant and he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. That is the deal, is it," and such remarks as this, and the justice of the peace very patiently and courteously explained to him what the procedure was and why it was.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about that?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall his exact words.

Mr. Rankin. Just tell us in substance.

Mr. Curry. He didn't—as I recall, he didn't think much of it. He just said, "I don't know what you are talking about."

Mr. Rankin. What did the justice of the peace say about the procedure and any rights and so forth?

Mr. Curry. As I recall it, he read to him the fact that he was being charged with the assassination of the President of the United States, John Kennedy on such and such day at such and such time.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about his right to plead?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about counsel?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. Rankin. What else happened at that time that you recall?

Mr. Curry. That is about all. After it was read to him, he was taken back to his cell.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go back with him to the cell?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Rankin. Who took him back to the cell?

Mr. Curry. The jailer and assistant jailer or jail guard.

Mr. Rankin. What came to your attention after that about Lee Harvey Oswald, that you can recall, what was the next thing that happened that you know of?

Mr. Curry. The next thing that I know of, was the next morning.

Mr. Rankin. What happened then?

Mr. Curry. The interrogation of Lee Harvey continued on and off through the day. No; I had asked the captain during the afternoon if he was being given rest periods and if he was being fed properly so that he wouldn't have reason to complain that we were mistreating him in any way.

Mr. Rankin. What captain did you ask that?

Mr. Curry. Fritz.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say?

Mr. Curry. He said he was. He said he was not interrogating him on long drawn-out extended periods, he was letting him rest and he was being fed.

Mr. Dulles. Did the interrogation continue into the night or did it stop, do you know?

Mr. Curry. I don't know what—well, it did continue into that first night, I know. But I don't know what time they discontinued the interrogation.

Mr. Rankin. They stopped?

Mr. Curry. I was not in the offices all the time. I was there two or three times.

Mr. Rankin. Captain Fritz tell you anything about the interrogation, how it was going, what was said?

Mr. Curry. He told me about, oh, late in the afternoon or early in the evening that he felt that he had enough evidence to file on him for the murder of the officer, and he told me, he said, "I strongly suspect that he was the assassin of the President."

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what time of day it was?

Mr. Curry. It seemed to me like it was 6 or 7 o'clock on the day of the 22d.

Mr. Rankin. Can you describe the situation in the police headquarters with regard to the media. Were they continuing to be there?

Mr. Curry. They remained there. You could hardly get down the hall, and it was necessary, when we would take the prisoner back to the jail to bring him out of the office, and down this hallway and put him on a special elevator just for prisoners.

Mr. Rankin. What office do you mean when you say that?

Mr. Curry. From the homicide office.

Mr. Rankin. Yes. You took him down what hallway?

Mr. Curry. The third floor hallway. The offices run like this in the building. The homicide office is right along here, perhaps 25 feet. The elevator is right here, this is a special elevator that runs to the jail.

Mr. Rankin. Will you mark that homicide office with an "H" on to indicate it?

Mr. Curry. This extends up here a little more perhaps.

Mr. Rankin. Will you mark the elevator with "EL."

The Chairman. There is a lot of other writing on this paper a lot of doodling that someone else has done and I think the chief had better have a new piece of paper.

Gentlemen, before you get into a discussion of this diagram with the chief, Mr. Rankin, I must leave now for a session of the Court, and Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence?

Mr. Dulles. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. I will be back immediately at the conclusion of our session today.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. Rankin. Chief, have you marked on a yellow sheet of paper a diagram of the third floor of the police headquarters?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I have, principally the north end of it.

Mr. Rankin. We will call that Exhibit 701. Will you describe briefly for the Commission just what you have marked on there now?

Mr. Curry. I have a rough layout of the north end of the third floor of the police and courts building in Dallas, Tex.

Now, this shows the public elevators, the lobby way in front of the elevators, and then a hall that extends the length of the third floor from north to south.

In the extreme north end there is a small press room where ordinarily the news media stay from early morning until late at night to cover police events.

I have also marked off the other bureaus that are located on this floor, the burglary and theft bureau would be on the west side, and in the northwest corner is the juvenile bureau.

The northeast corner is the auto theft bureau, the next going south would be the forgery bureau, and then would be the homicide office or homicide bureau, which is adjacent to a hallway, the north-south hallway, and also the rear office is adjacent to the hall going over to the municipal building which is immediately east of the police and courts building.

The entrance to the homicide office is approximately 20 or 25 feet to the entrance to this jail elevator, and it is necessary to bring a prisoner down this hall in order to get him into this jail elevator. Each time we—that I observed them move Oswald, they were almost overrun by news media.

Mr. Rankin. By overrun, what do you mean?

Could you describe with a little more definiteness, are you talking about 4 or 5 or 10?

Mr. Curry. I will say probably a hundred, at least a hundred that were jammed into this hallway.

(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Rankin. Were some of them—I will withdraw that question.

Were some of these people from the news media from the press and others from the radio and others from the television?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; that is true, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Rankin. Chief Curry, you said that Mr. Nichols came that afternoon. I call to your attention that we have information that he came there on the Saturday afternoon.

Mr. Curry. Perhaps it was, not the Friday. That perhaps was on Saturday.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. I wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Rankin. Back on the record.

In regard to Mr. Nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to represent or provide counsel?

Mr. Curry. Yes; he did.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about that?

Mr. Curry. He said he didn't care to at this time.

Mr. Rankin. What did Mr. Nichols say about providing counsel?

Mr. Curry. He said the Dallas Bar would provide counsel if he desired counsel.

Mr. Rankin. That is to Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Curry. Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. What did Mr. Oswald say?

Mr. Curry. He said, "I don't at this time," he said, "If I can't get Mr. Abt to represent me or someone from Civil Liberties Union I will call on you later."

Representative Ford. Did Nichols and Oswald talk one to another?

Mr. Curry. Yes; he was taken to see Oswald and he talked to him.

Mr. Rankin. And this all occurred at the meeting you have already described?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Curry. That is correct.

Mr. Rankin. When you had so many people of the news media in all of your corridors and throughout your police headquarters, did you discuss that with the mayor or any of the other authorities?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall that I specifically discussed this condition.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask for any instructions or advice?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Rankin. Did you do anything about it that you have not already described?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Dulles. Did it worry you?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; it did. I was concerned about it.

Mr. McCloy. Did you have a definite system of checking credentials of these people as they came in?

Mr. Curry. On a particular incident that had occurred previous to this, such as the school integration, we had a plane to fall there one time and we have a regular set up for disaster, whereby the press identify themselves in order to get into a certain area, and their credentials were being checked.

Now, I have heard it said, not to my knowledge can I tell you this, that Jack Ruby at one time or sometime during these preceding days, had been seen there and apparently had some press credentials but I was never able to establish that.

Mr. Rankin. You have checked into it?

Mr. Curry. I have inquired into it or had it inquired into.

Mr. Rankin. What did you find out in that regard?

Mr. Curry. I couldn't find out where he had received press credentials from anybody.

Representative Ford. Were any press credentials found in his effects?

Mr. Curry. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. Rankin. When you were having the difficulty with the media that you have described, did you do anything about adding additional guards or anything about additional security?

Mr. Curry. No; we had two men, two uniformed officers right at the homicide door to keep anyone from going in there.

As I recall, there was a sergeant, and a couple of reserve officers at the public elevators here, and there were a couple of reservists at this end of the hall to keep them from overrunning into the administrative offices.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 701, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. Is that the chart?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. It will be admitted. This is a chart of the third floor.

Mr. Curry. Of the police and courts building.

Mr. Dulles. What is the other word?

Mr. Curry. Police and courts building.

Mr. Dulles. It will be accepted.

(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 701 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Have you done anything to change your procedures in regard to security or how you would handle prisoners in light of this difficulty you had with the media?

Mr. Curry. The city manager and I have discussed the possibility that we are going to in the near future build a new police building.

Mr. Rankin. Who is the city manager?

Mr. Curry. Elgin Crull. He made this statement that when and if we build another building, it will be so designed that the prisoners will not have to be brought through where the general public are permitted or where the press would be permitted. That there will be two sets of halls or hallways where they will be brought down in the rear hallways and admitted into the offices for interrogation.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say about that?

Mr. Curry. I heartily agreed with him.

Mr. Rankin. Have you made any other plans for change of security?

Mr. Curry. I have talked to my staff and said if we were ever faced with a thing of such magnitude again that we would not permit the press to come into the building. We would designate a place outside for them and we would just have to take the heat that was given to us by the press for not permitting them in there, but in view of what had happened that we would never permit this to occur again.

That we would permit them to have representatives but they would be required to choose their representatives to be present, say, in these hallways or inside the buildings, and the rest of them would be excluded.

And regardless of how they treated us in the press for this decision, that is the way it would be in the future.

Mr. Rankin. Did you do anything about appearing on television during this time?

Mr. Curry. They had these cameras set up in the hallway, if I can have the exhibit I will show it to you.

Mr. Rankin. Yes. That is Exhibit 701.

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. They had cameras set up right here, two or three cameras.

Mr. Rankin. Have you marked that with the word "cameras"?

Mr. Curry. Yes. And on an occasion or two as I was walking from the homicide office back to my office they would stop me here and try to interrogate me or interview me and they would have the cameras turned on me.

Mr. Rankin. What would you do?

Mr. Curry. They would besiege me with questions about how the investigation was proceeding, and I would on occasion or two I told them I thought it was proceeding very well, that we were obtaining good evidence to substantiate our suspicions, that this was the man that was guilty of the assassination.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell them what evidence you had?

Mr. Curry. I told them on one occasion we had a rifle that had been partially identified by his, as belonging to him.

Mr. Rankin. When did you do that?

Mr. Curry. I believe that was on Saturday, I think.

Mr. Rankin. About what time of the day?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall exactly. I think it was in the afternoon. It might have been Friday night.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell them about any other evidence that you had?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall, sir, whether I did or not. There was so much confusion that I can't recall exactly the times and exactly what was said. I think this is documented, perhaps.

Mr. Rankin. Where?

Mr. Curry. On the TV film.

Mr. Rankin. I see. Did you give out any interviews to the newspapers?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall giving any interviews to newspapers.

Mr. Rankin. Any news releases?

Mr. Curry. Not that I recall.

Mr. Dulles. Do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio order out to surround the book depository?

Mr. Curry. I didn't do that, sir. That was one of my inspectors, I believe that gave that order. I was riding in the Presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President's car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from.

Representative Ford. What report are you talking about now?

Mr. Curry. A sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the report of this rifle.

We were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people around on each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and I thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a sharp crack.

Inspector—no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car.

Mr. Dulles. I may be anticipating.

Mr. Rankin. That is all right, go right ahead.

Mr. Curry. I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this. I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check."

And then about this time. I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by reports?

Mr. Curry. Sharp reports as a rifle or a firecracker, and looking in the rear view mirror then I could see some commotion in President Kennedy's car.

Mr. Rankin. You could distinctly hear and tell that the two later reports were from behind?

Mr. Curry. Behind.

Mr. Rankin. Rather than front?

Mr. Curry. That is right.

Mr. Rankin. You weren't sure whether the first one was from behind or in front?

Mr. Curry. I couldn't tell because perhaps of the echo or the——

Representative Ford. Where were you sitting in the car, sir?

Mr. Curry. I was driving.

Representative Ford. You were driving?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. When you heard the first report, did you grab a communications set and give this order?

Mr. Curry. Almost immediately.

Representative Ford. What was the order that you gave?

Mr. Curry. As I recall it, "Get someone up in the railroad yard to check those people." There was already an officer up there.

Mr. Rankin. How do you know that?

Mr. Curry. They assigned officers to every overpass.

We went with the Secret Service, Batchelor and Chief Lunday had went over this route with Secret Service agents Lawson and Sorrels and they had run the route 2 or 3 days prior to this and pointed out every place where they wanted security officers, and we placed them there where they asked for them.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see an officer there when you looked up?

Mr. Curry. I couldn't recognize him, but I could see an officer whoever it was.

Representative Ford. Did you get this order over the PA system before the second and third shots?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe so, I am not sure. I am not positive. Because they were in pretty rapid succession. But after I noticed some commotion in the President's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside of me and I asked him what had happened and he said shots had been fired, and I said, "Has the President been hit or has the President's party been hit?

And he said, "I am sure they have."

I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance.

As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the President, President Kennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital.

Mrs. Kennedy, I went into the hospital, and I know she was outside the door of where they were working with the President, and someone suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, "I am all right. Some of your people need to sit down more than I do."

But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President Johnson to Love Field.

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about that, haven't you?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I have told you about that.

Mr. Rankin. And you told us you attended the swearing in of President Johnson?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I did.

Mr. Rankin. And that you waited until the plane left and then you came back?

Mr. Curry. To my offices.

Mr. Rankin. And Judge Hughes left at the same time?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, did you do anything about the assassination after this or at some time?

Mr. Curry. No. I left this to be handled by Captain Fritz who is in charge of all homicide investigations.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether anything was done, did you make inquiry?

Mr. Curry. Yes; he told me they were interrogating him, Oswald about the assassination and trying to check on the movements of Oswald, and they obtained, I understand, some search warrants to go out and search, they found out where he had been staying.

Mr. Rankin. What about the building immediately after the occasion?

Mr. Curry. It was sealed off, Inspector Sawyer who is a uniformed police inspector, I think was the first ranking officer to the School Depository Building. He would have had to come perhaps 10 blocks. I believe he told me that he was about at Akard and Maine when this came on the air that we had had some trouble down there.

Mr. Rankin. You say you imagine. Is this something that they reported to you?

Mr. Curry. Yes. He told me later that he did immediately go to the scene of the Texas—of where the shots were fired from.

Mr. Rankin. What did he tell you he did then?

Mr. Curry. He took charge of the investigation.

Mr. Rankin. What did he do about the building?

Mr. Curry. He had it sealed off. This perhaps would have been perhaps, 5, 8, 10 minutes after the original——

Mr. Rankin. About what time?

Mr. Curry. I would say perhaps 12:40.

Mr. Rankin. And was that before or after a description of Lee Oswald was put on the radio?

Mr. Curry. I couldn't say whether it was before or after.

Mr. Rankin. What else happened?

Mr. Curry. I think he perhaps was the one who gave that description, I am not sure.

A deputy chief of services who was in the pilot car ahead of us, was at Love Field, and he had some more Secret Service men with him, I believe.

Mr. Rankin. Who is that?

Mr. Curry. George Lumpkin. George L. Lumpkin. He asked me at the hospital if I didn't want him to go back to the Texas School Book Depository and assist in the search of the building and I told him yes, and he did go back, and took over on the search of the building then.

Mr. Rankin. Did he report to you later what he did about that?

Mr. Curry. Yes, he did. He told me that he had sealed it off and he appointed two search teams to search the building from top to bottom, starting at the bottom and going to the top and starting at the top and going to the bottom.

Mr. McCloy. Who was this man?

Mr. Curry. George L. Lumpkin.

Mr. McCloy. Secret Service?

Mr. Curry. No.

Mr. McCloy. On your staff?

Mr. Curry. No; he is a police officer.

Mr. Rankin. Was he an assistant chief?

Mr. Curry. He is not an assistant chief. Each of the divisions have a deputy chief in charge of them. I have one assistant chief and four deputy chiefs.

Mr. Rankin. And this was a deputy chief?

Mr. Curry. A deputy chief; yes.

Mr. Rankin. Under your system the highest civil service status is inspector, is it?

Mr. Curry. That is correct.

Mr. Rankin. And the other officers are appointed?

Mr. Curry. Appointed, yes.

Mr. Rankin. By you?

Mr. Curry. By me, yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers were in those teams?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether the search was made?

Mr. Curry. They reported to me that it was made, yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what else happened in regard to the building or the search for the assassin?

Mr. Curry. After it was searched I understand it was sealed off and they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until further orders.

Mr. Rankin. Then what happened after that?

Mr. Dulles. Could I inquire there. I thought it was sealed off previous to the search according to your previous testimony.

Mr. Curry. It was. But after they searched it and all of the investigators left there, they asked Mr. Truly, I believe, the building manager, not to let anybody come and go.

Mr. Dulles. Was that supplemented, though, by the police?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I believe we had officers there.

Mr. Dulles. Then there were in a way two sealings off. One that you gave the order was given 8 or 10 minutes——

Mr. Curry. Almost immediately, yes.

Mr. Dulles. After the assassination, and then the other one was after this search had been made.

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. There is one element I am not clear on, I may be anticipating, Mr. Rankin. But I believe we have had some testimony heretofore, that Mr.—an officer went in with Mr. Truly into the building.

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. And started to go upstairs, and they ran into Oswald on the second floor. Was that before the inspector got there?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; I am sure it was, because this officer was there at the scene.

Mr. McCloy. Do you remember that officer's name?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I don't. It is in the record.

Mr. Belin. It is officer M. L. Baker. He was in the motorcade.

Mr. McCloy. Did M. L. Baker purport to seal off the building?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; he didn't. The first officers in there were rushing up to the upper floors.

Mr. McCloy. The first man who sealed the building was——

Mr. Curry. I believe will be Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. McCloy. Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. Curry. I believe he would be the first to issue orders. I could be mistaken on that but as I recall he was the first officer.

Mr. Dulles. You did not give those orders yourself?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; not myself.

Representative Ford. How many men participated in the search of the building?

Mr. Curry. I would just have to guess but I would suggest probably 20 people.

Representative Ford. Did you check with those who went through this process?

Mr. Curry. No; I didn't check with each individual officer.

Representative Ford. Did you get a report?

Mr. Curry. I got a report from Inspector Sawyer, and also from Chief Lumpkin as to the manner in which it was searched.

Representative Ford. How long did it take them, do you have any idea?

Mr. Curry. I believe they were, perhaps, maybe a couple of hours altogether, searching that building.

Representative Ford. Did they give you an oral or written report on what they found or didn't find?

Mr. Curry. I believe there were some written reports made. I don't recall now.

Representative Ford. If there are written reports could we have them?

Mr. Curry. I think——

Mr. Rankin. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative Ford. Back on the record.

Are you familiar with any written report, Chief, on what transpired during the search of the building?

Mr. Curry. Only what Deputy Chief Lumpkin in his report here in a chronological report that we made, and you have this, as best we could, after this occurred, the deputy chiefs and myself all sat down together went over this from the time we received notice that the President would visit Dallas until the shooting of Oswald, and step by step we tried to go through this as to what we did, and this is what we call a chronological report.

Representative Ford. If there is a report in anybody's files in the Dallas Police department on what transpired during this investigation of the building, there would be no reason why that report couldn't be made available?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; if we have one it certainly would be made available.

Representative Ford. Will you check the files of the department and if there is a report available will you submit it to the Commission, please?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; I was trying to.

Mr. Rankin. Chief Curry, I think that your chronological report does not purport to go into the detail of how the search was made and so forth.

Mr. Curry. No, sir; it just states in here how Chief Lumpkin, how he formed the search and it tells something about while he was there.

Mr. McCloy. The chronological report part of our record yet?

Mr. Belin. We have a chronological report, yes.

Mr. McCloy. Is this the same one as the Chief is looking at?

Mr. Rankin. We will check that.

Mr. Dulles. It is not yet an exhibit, is it?

Mr. Rankin. No; we have, and we were discussing yesterday, a number of items in the form of affidavits and other evidence that we will have to introduce into the record of the Commission before we get through which has been examined by the staff and in some cases called to the Commission's attention but is not formally a matter of record and we will have to complete that before we can complete our report.

Mr. McCloy. Is that the same chronological report that the Chief has?

Mr. Curry. If it isn't I can leave you these copies but they were submitted to Attorney General Carr, two copies. This is what is in this report. "Upon arrival,"—this is Chief Lumpkin—"Upon arrival at the Texas School Book Depository we found Inspector Sawyer was in front of the building and with the assistance of other officers was in the process of detaining anyone or everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting. This was discussed with Sawyer. We decided that we would get all persons in that category away from the crowd by sending them to Sheriff Decker's office"—which is about a half block from here—"at Main and Houston to be held for further interrogation. Homicide Detective Turner was sent to the sheriff's office to represent the homicide bureau of our department and interrogating these witnesses."

Mr. Dulles. That is where the sheriff's office was?

Mr. Curry. Main and Houston, it runs.

"Detective Senkel was released back to Captain Fritz to assist in the investigation. He had come down. Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going or coming. Sawyer organized a detail to check all persons and automobiles on the parking lot surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building, taking their names, telephone numbers, addresses, places of employment, and later on in the afternoon those vehicles that were not taken out were checked by license number. Several of the U.S. Alcohol Tax units assisted in the search.

"At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off and that no one be allowed to leave or enter."

This probably was some, I would say, some 30 or 40 minutes after the original shots were fired. He had gone on to Parkland Hospital to me and I told him there to return to assist in the handling of this matter.

Mr. McCloy. In your judgment is that the first sealing off of the building that took place?

Mr. Curry. No; I think Inspector Sawyer, when he arrived he took some steps to seal off the building.

Mr. Rankin. You have already testified about Inspector Sawyer and you said you thought he was about 10 or 12 blocks away.

Mr. Curry. I believe so. I believe he was about at Main and Akard Streets which would be about 10 blocks away when he heard of this incident occurring and he immediately went down there.

Mr. Dulles. And the first order to seal off was given some 10 minutes, I think you testified, in that neighborhood?

Mr. Curry. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Dulles. After the assassination?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know just what he did about sealing the building, did you?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I don't. I imagine he placed men on the front and back doors and asked them not to let anyone come or go without finding out who they were.

Mr. Dulles. Who would know that fact as to when that order was given, that would be Sawyer?

Mr. Rankin. Officer Sawyer would be the one who would really know that fact?

Mr. Curry. I believe so.

Mr. Rankin. And whatever he would say about it you think would be correct?

Mr. Curry. I do. Because we already have a deposition from him that tells about the sealing of the building, and it was not done immediately when he came.

Representative Ford. Would it be appropriate at this time to put that deposition in the record at this point?

Mr. Rankin. I wonder if it would be satisfactory to the Commission, in view of the inquiry by Commissioner Ford, if we would, the staff would, tender at this point the portion of the deposition that relates to how the building was sealed, and then have a reference to this point in the place where it is offered in evidence in regular course.

Representative Ford. That would be satisfactory to me as far as the particular point we are discussing at the moment.

Mr. Rankin. We will do that then.

Now, Chief, would you tell us the next thing that you know of that happened about the search for the assassin, after the search of the depository building that you described?

Mr. Curry. The next thing I can tell you about, I remained out, as I say, at Love Field until the planes departed. I went back to the office.

Mr. Dulles. At about what time would you place that?

Mr. Curry. I believe it was about 4 o'clock I believe when I returned to the office.

Mr. Dulles. It was 4 o'clock when you returned to the office from Love Field?

Mr. Curry. I believe so, I am not positive.

When I arrived they were in the process of, Captain Fritz and his men, were in the process of investigating this murder of Tippit and also the assassination of the President.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make an inquiry in regard to the progress?

Mr. Curry. I think I did. I asked him how he was coming along and he said they were making good progress.

Mr. Rankin. Then what happened after that?

Mr. Curry. They had had a couple of showups with Oswald so witnesses could attempt to identify him.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether they had gone out to Beckley Street to the place where he had stayed?

Mr. Curry. I understood they had and I understood they went back the next day.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by a showup?

Mr. Curry. Well, it is customary when you have suspects in a crime where you have witnesses, that they be taken into a room and allowed, the witnesses, to observe them in the presence of other people.

Mr. Rankin. You have a room for this purpose?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; we do.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe briefly what that room is like?

Mr. Curry. It is a police assemblyroom where we hold our regular rollcalls. They have a stage whereby prisoners are brought up on this stage.

Mr. Rankin. How large is the room?

Mr. Curry. The room, I would say, is perhaps 50 feet long and 20 feet wide.

Mr. Rankin. Who was allowed in the room at the time of this showup?

Mr. Curry. Presumably only the news media and police officers. I have been told that Jack Ruby was seen in this showuproom also.

Mr. Rankin. About what time of the day was that?

Mr. Curry. As I recall, this was fairly late Friday night, I believe.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who was there to try to identify Lee Oswald?

Mr. Curry. No, I don't. The news media, a number of them, had continued to say, "Let us see him. What are you doing to him? How does he look?"

I think one broadcaster that I had heard or someone had told me about, said that Lee Harvey Oswald is in custody of the police department, and that something about he looked all right when he went in there, they wouldn't guarantee how he would look after he had been in custody of the Dallas police for a couple of hours, which intimated to me that when I heard this that they thought we were mistreating the prisoner.

Mr. Rankin. Did you do anything about that?

Mr. Curry. I offered then at that time—they wanted to see him and they wanted to know why they couldn't see him and I said we had no objection to anybody seeing him.

And when he was being moved down the hall to go back up in the jail they would crowd on him and we just had to surround him by officers to get to take him to the jail elevator to take him back upstairs, to let him rest from the interrogation.

Mr. Rankin. And this showup, how many people attended?

Mr. Curry. I would think perhaps 75 people. I am just making an estimate. I told them if they would not try to overrun the prisoner and not try to interrogate him we would bring him to the showup room. There was—this, thinking also that these newspaper people had been all over Love Field, and had been down at the assassination scene, and we didn't know but what some of them might recognize him as being present, they might have seen him around some of these places.

Now, Mr. Wade, the district attorney, was present, at this time and his assistant was present, and as I recall, I asked Mr. Wade, I said, "Do you think this will be all right?" And he said, "I don't see anything wrong with it."

Mr. Rankin. Did you find out where Jack Ruby was during this showup?

Mr. Curry. I didn't know Jack Ruby. Actually the first time I saw Jack Ruby to know Jack Ruby was in a bond hearing or I believe it was a bond hearing, and I recognized him sitting at counsel's table.

The impression has been given that a great many of the Dallas Police Department knew Jack Ruby.

Mr. Rankin. What is the fact in that regard?

Mr. Curry. The fact of that as far as I know there are a very small percentage of the Dallas Police Department that knows Jack Ruby.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make an inquiry to find out?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I did, yes, sir. And so far as I know most of the men who knew Jack Ruby are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he had places and in the course——

Mr. Rankin. How many men would that be?

Mr. Curry. I am guessing, perhaps 25 men. This is merely a guess on my part.

Mr. Rankin. How large is your police force?

Mr. Curry. Approximately 1,200. I would say 1,175 people. I would say less, I believe less than 50 people knew him. From what I have found out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself acquainted with him.

I also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do, he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for himself.

Mr. Rankin. Now, at this showup, is there some screen between the person in custody?

Mr. Curry. There is a time—there wasn't at this time.

Mr. Rankin. Why not?

Mr. Curry. No particular reason. They just, a lot of the news media say they didn't think they could see him up there or couldn't get pictures of him up there and we brought him in there in front of the screen and kept him there as I recall only about 4 or 5 minutes and shoving up close to him and taking shots of him and took him upstairs and I believe the district attorney and his assistant stayed down and perhaps talked to the news media for several minutes.

But we took Harvey Oswald back upstairs and I think I went back to my office.

Mr. Dulles. This was the evening of Friday, was it not?

Mr. Curry. I believe so, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Did you say Ruby was present that evening?

Mr. Curry. I have understood he was. But to my own knowledge, I wouldn't have known him because I didn't know him.

Mr. McCloy. You said you first saw Ruby when?

Mr. Curry. In a trial. I believe it was for a bond hearing where they were attempting to get bond for him. And I saw him sitting at a counsel table and recognized him from pictures I had seen of him in the paper.

Mr. Dulles. This is some time before the assassination?

Mr. McCloy. This is the trial incident to the trial of Ruby, as I understand it?

Mr. Dulles. You had not seen him before?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. It was a bond hearing incident to the trial?

Mr. Curry. If I had seen him I wouldn't have known him.

Mr. McCloy. I don't want to again interrupt but I don't know whether we have passed by all of the questions you wanted to ask the chief in regard to the motorcade and the time of the assassination.

I thought maybe we might ask him whether or what was his estimate of the speed of the motorcade, for example.

Mr. Rankin. We haven't covered that period because of the way we started, and I think we could go back, Chief, if you will, to, say, at the point the motorcade left Main Street and started down Houston, and then down Elm up to the time of the shots.

Will you describe that, where you and what the motorcade consisted of?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; I was—there was a pilot car ahead of us with Deputy Chief Lumpkin that was perhaps two or three blocks ahead of us and had been preceding us all the way from Love Field to see that the route was open and reporting back by radio to us, and this was for the purpose, if we had any wrecks or congestion to where it looked like the motorcade could be stopped that we could change our routes and get around them and also to let us know how the crowd was.

He had been preceding us all this way. There has been some question as to why this motorcade would not proceed on down Main Street.

Mr. Rankin. Will you explain that to the Commission?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; I can. I will make another diagram here, if you wish me to.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. McCloy asked about whether the chronological report that Chief Curry was examining during part of his testimony was available to the Commission. We have now searched the Commission files and we find that a copy of that exact report has been available to the Commission and we have it here. It is a Commission document——

Mr. Redlich. It is in Commission Document 81.1.

Representative Ford. Will this report be made a part of the record?

Mr. Rankin. We haven't decided that question but we will examine it and report to the Commission later if it is not made a part of the record, why we recommend that it not be. It may very well be amongst the documents that would be made part of the record in regular course when we examine all of the material for that purpose. Is that a satisfactory handling of it?

Representative Ford. I think it is. I haven't had an opportunity to examine it. But if it is a part of the record, I suspect it ought to be made a part at this point since it has been referred to by the testimony of the chief. But it is something that could be discussed later, and if it should be, it could be put into the record at this point.

Mr. Rankin. I would like to ask leave of the Chairman then to examine it with greater care after the testimony of the chief is taken and be able to make it a part of the record at this point unless I report back to the Commission that for some reason it would not be desirable.

Mr. Dulles. That would be we would proceed in regard to this chronological report we would proceed in the same way as we have suggested we would with regard to the other depositions that were taken in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Except my offer before, Mr. Chairman, was that the portion of the deposition that would relate to the matters described, that is the sealing of the building, would, in fact, be incorporated into this record at that point. And that the balance of it would be offered at some later date as a part of the record of the Commission.

Here I wanted to reserve the question as to whether it should be a part of the record because of my desire first to examine it in detail and see if there is any reason why it should not and then report back to the Commission.

Mr. Dulles. You will report back to the Commission. It will not be excluded unless you so report to the Commission.

Mr. Rankin. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. And the reason therefor?

Mr. Curry. This sketch.

Mr. Rankin. Will you mark that sketch you have just made Exhibit 702 please, and 703?

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 702 and 703 were marked for identification.)

Mr. Curry. In the diagram, 702, Exhibit 702, the motorcade was going west on Main Street, there is a triple underpass there. There are three streets and they converge into one wide street down through a triple underpass, what we call a triple underpass.

Mr. Rankin. Where you are talking about the underpass is that underpass on Main Street?

Mr. Curry. It is just west of Houston Street and runs parallel with Houston Street. And Main Street—now Houston Street runs in a north-south direction, Main Street, Elm Street, and Commerce Street the three principal streets that empty into this triple underpass are east-west, Elm Street is a one-way street west, Commerce is one-way east, Main Street is a two-way street going east and west. We had——

Mr. Rankin. You were going to explain why you couldn't continue right down Main.

Mr. Curry. We would—we left the parade route up to the host committee. They chose the route, asking that we go down Main Street, and then we would go on to what is known as the triple, through the triple underpass onto Stemmons Expressway. It was necessary to get on this expressway to get to the Trade Mart, the building where the dinner or luncheon would be held.

But had we proceeded on down Main Street, we could not have gotten onto Stemmons Expressway unless we had had public works to come in and remove some curbing and build some barricades over it.

So, in talking with the Secret Service people they suggested we come to Main Street to Elm Street, turn one block north and turn back west and go through the triple underpass on the Elm Street side and at this place Elm Street is two-way.

So that was the reason that it was necessary to take this motorcade one block north, and then turn west again in order that we could get on the triple, through the triple underpass onto the Stemmons Expressway without coming down and removing some curbing or building over the curbing and disturbing the regular flow of traffic.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any consideration given prior to establishing the parade route to removing this curbing and going——

Mr. Curry. No, sir; nothing was said about it at all. In fact, when they were choosing the routes for this parade, we left it entirely up to the host committee and to the Secret Service.

They asked us what we thought about certain routes. We told them what we thought would be the most direct routes, and they chose to come through the downtown area, I think for the purpose they wanted the President to see as much of the people as possible and wanted the people to have an opportunity to see him.

Mr. Rankin. Going to the Trade Mart building would be assumed that you would go by the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. Curry. If we went on Stemmons Expressway and that is the way they wanted to go. The only other way we could have gone. We could have continued down Main Street passed through the underpass about a block past there to Industrial Boulevard and then we would have gone Industrial Boulevard and made an entrance from the Trade Mart, from the north side of the Trade Mart there. But it was decided with the Secret Service people that we would go Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, Elm through to triple underpass onto the expressway and the expressway to the Trade Mart where they would come off and had parking facilities reserved and had a security setup.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe the cars of the——

Mr. McCloy. Just before that, how far before November 22 was that route decided on?

Mr. Curry. Approximately 2 days or so, I believe. That is in this chronological record.

Mr. Dulles. When was this route published?

Mr. McCloy. That route was published.

Mr. Curry. It was published perhaps 2 days before, a day or two before.

Mr. Rankin. Is the Elm Street route a shorter route than to go by Industrial Boulevard?

Mr. Curry. It's a more scenic route. The Stemmons Expressway was and it was easier to travel, traffic is easier to control on it, it is a 10-lane highway, and the Industrial Highway is heavily traveled by commercial vehicles and goes through a commercial section of the industrial area. And there was a more scenic route and traffic was more—a freer flow of traffic anyway.

Mr. Rankin. Were you involved in the discussion about the choice of route?

Mr. Curry. Not particularly. Chief Batchelor, my assistant chief, and Chief Lunday. I discussed this some with the Secret Service Agent Sorrels, and Lawson in a staff meeting at city hall.

Mr. Rankin. What was that discussion?

Mr. Curry. Well, we, when I say we, I mean my staff and I, we told them what we thought would be the most direct route.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say that would have been?

Mr. Curry. It would have been to come into Lemmon Avenue, to Central Expressway if they were coming through town and over that route.

Now, if they were going directly to the Trade Mart it would have been to come in Lemmon to Inwood Road and down Inwood to Hines, and Hines to Industrial and Industrial into—but this would not have taken them through the downtown area.

Mr. Rankin. Then if they were going to go through the downtown area what did you say about the route that should be taken for that?

Mr. Curry. This was probably the most direct route that they chose except they could have come in what we term the Central Expressway to Main Street, and then west on Main Street right down the route that was taken.

They chose rather to come in on Lemmon Avenue to Turtle Creek, and here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have an opportunity to see the motorcade. And followed Turtle Creek into Cedar Springs, to Harwood and south on Harwood to Main Street, west on Main to Houston, north on Houston to Elm and west on Elm to Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. Rankin. Have you described the cars in the motorcade? Their positions?

Mr. Curry. I have them listed here, I couldn't tell you other than the front part of the motorcade but they are in this report.

Mr. Rankin. Yes. Tell us the front part that you recall.

Mr. Curry. I had Deputy Chief Lumpkin, and he had two Secret Service men with him, I believe, out of Washington, and a Colonel Wiedemeyer who is the East Texas Section Commander of the Army Reserve in the area, he was with him. They were out about, they were supposed to stay about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and I was in the lead car.

Mr. Rankin. Who was with you?

Mr. Curry. Inspector, not inspector, but Sheriff Bill Decker, Sorrels of the Secret Service, and Mr. Lawson, I believe he was out of the Washington office of the Secret Service. And immediately behind us then was the President's car.

Mr. Rankin. You were driving your car?

Mr. Curry. I was driving my car.

Mr. Rankin. You had radio communication in that?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I had radio communication with my motorcycle officers, with my downtown office, and Secret Service had a portable radio that they had radio contact with their people.

Mr. Rankin. Yes. Now, what was in the next car.

Mr. Curry. The President's party was in that car. Then following him was the Secret Service vehicle and then I understand was the Vice President's car, and then behind him was a Secret Service car. And then they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were lined up after that.

Mr. Rankin. Now, after you turned the corner off of Main going onto Houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it?

Mr. Curry. Nothing unusual occurred. We were, I would say traveling perhaps 10 miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn, and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north, going north on Houston to west on Elm Street, and——

Mr. Rankin. Did you slow down for the turn onto Elm?

Mr. Curry. Perhaps just a little. I would say we were probably going 8 to 10 miles an hour. And as we were moving downward the triple underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up a little speed.

Mr. Rankin. How much of a descent is there between where the Depository Building is and the place in the underpass?

Mr. Curry. It is a pretty good little drop. Within the space of a block it drops down enough to go under an underpass.

Mr. Rankin. It would be more than the height of a car?

Mr. Curry. Yes; two heights.

Mr. Rankin. Two heights.

Mr. Curry. I think it is a 13- or 14-foot clearance.

Mr. Rankin. Trucks could get under that?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Then what happened?

Mr. Curry. Then we heard this report.

Mr. Rankin. Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time of that?

Mr. Curry. I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so.

Mr. Rankin. How fast were you going then?

Mr. Curry. I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe up to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. Rankin. Then what happened?

Mr. Curry. We heard this report, and then all of the tension that followed I have told you.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. What was the distance between your car and the President's car approximately?

Mr. Curry. Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would have been 100, 125 feet.

Mr. Dulles. Between your car and the President's car?

Mr. Curry. Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.

Mr. Rankin. Did they tell you why?

Mr. Curry. We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.

Mr. Rankin. How many motorcycles did you have?

Mr. Curry. I think we had four on each side of him.

Mr. Rankin. How many did you want to have?

Mr. Curry. We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.

Mr. Rankin. So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car?

Mr. Curry. Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect him from the crowd.

Mr. Rankin. Who asked him to stay at the rear fender?

Mr. Curry. I believe Mr. Lawson.

Mr. Rankin. The Secret Service man?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. Also we had planned to have Captain Fritz and some of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car which we have in the past, we have always done this.

Mr. Rankin. Now, would that be between the President's car and the Secret Service?

Mr. Curry. And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have been immediately behind the President's car.

Mr. Rankin. Did you propose that to someone?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Who did you propose it to?

Mr. Curry. To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers.

Mr. Rankin. What did they say about that?

Mr. Curry. They didn't want it.

Mr. Rankin. Did they tell you why?

Mr. Curry. They said the Secret Service would be there.

Mr. Rankin. And then?

Mr. Curry. They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said, "No, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.

Mr. Dulles. What do you mean in the past when there have been previous Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?

Mr. Curry. Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my knowledge, over 40 years.

It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns.

Representative Ford. Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.

Mr. Curry. Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They followed up the motorcade.

Representative Ford. Were they in a car following up the motorcade?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; they were in a car.

Representative Ford. How far away would they have been?

Mr. Curry. I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.

Representative Ford. Captain Fritz is going to be here later.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Representative Ford. And fill in what he did at that time?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Curry. But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't—we didn't refuse them to do anything.

Mr. Dulles. You considered them to be the boss in this particular situation?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?

Mr. Curry. To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125–150 feet west of Houston Street.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?

Mr. Curry. Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.

Mr. Rankin. How many feet do you mean?

Mr. Curry. I would say perhaps, and this is just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.

Mr. Rankin. Then at the time of the third shot?

Mr. Curry. A few feet further, perhaps 15–20 feet further.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?

Mr. Curry. This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.

Mr. Rankin. Did you hear any more than three shots?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Rankin. Are you sure of that?

Mr. Curry. I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never forget it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have something, Mr. McCloy?

Mr. McCloy. I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably?

Mr. Curry. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it?

Mr. Curry. No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately over, but there were some people up in the railroad yard. I also could see an officer up there. I don't know who the officer was.

Mr. McCloy. You could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass?

Mr. Curry. Yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every overpass and in every underpass.

Mr. McCloy. How close were you then to the underpass when you first heard that shot?

Mr. Curry. Oh, perhaps 150 feet or 100 feet or so.

Mr. McCloy. So you are convinced that the shot could not come from the overpass?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe it did; no, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Then——

Mr. Curry. Because there didn't seem to be any commotion going on over there. This seemed to be people that I could see, they didn't seem to run or anything. They just seemed to be there.

Mr. McCloy. You spoke of the railroad yard. Just where is that railroad yard in relation to the underpass? We will see that.

Mr. Curry. It is over——

Mr. McCloy. It is on the other side.

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. You see these tracks.

Mr. Rankin. Mark that as Exhibit 703 and you can refer to.

Mr. Curry. Yes; here is the School Book Depository. The railroad goes over.

Mr. Dulles. This aerial view of the Elm Street there, isn't it of the underpass, will be admitted as 704.

(Commission Exhibit No. 704 was marked for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. McCloy. Do you call that the railroad yards?

Mr. Curry. Yes; that is true.

Mr. McCloy. Above the underpass?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Did you see a number of people in the railroad yard?

Mr. Curry. I would estimate maybe a half dozen.

Mr. Dulles. They were spectators or were they workmen. They were spectators?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; as well as I was able to tell. They might have been workmen, too, but I presume it was people who were in the area and as the motorcade approached they got into position where they perhaps could have seen it.

Mr. McCloy. Did you recognize any officer amongst them?

Mr. Curry. I seemed to recall seeing a uniformed police officer up there.

Mr. McCloy. In the railroad yard, and there was no commotion amongst the railroad yard people?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe so.

Representative Ford. Do you know who the officer was?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; but I believe by looking at the assignments we could determine what officer was up there.

There is an assignment of personnel which has been submitted for the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. Rankin. On the record, we will supply for the purposes of this record the name of the officer and check it with Chief Curry, who was on the underpass or really the over part of the pass.

Mr. Curry. Really over.

Mr. Rankin. At the time of the motorcade.

Representative Ford. Who determined there should be one, not more officers at an overpass?

Mr. Curry. Deputy Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor went over this route with Sorrels, and I believe Lawson was with them. And they were the ones who determined how many men would be placed at each location.

Mr. Rankin. The inquiry I think particularly is did the Secret Service decide it would be one or did you decide it would be one?

Mr. Curry. No; it would be the Secret Service because we just let them tell us how many men they wanted. The only deviation we made from that was in the security of the Trade Mart. I believe they requested 143 men, as I recall to secure the Trade Mart, and I believe we supplied them with 193 or 194 men, somewhat in excess of what they asked for at this location.

I called the State police, and they furnished a number of men, about 30 men, and Sheriff Decker furnished about 15, and I think we furnished from our department everybody that they asked for really, so we had a surplus.

Representative Ford. But the details as to how many men should be placed where were determined by Lawson and Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mr. Curry. That is right, sir; yes, sir.

(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. McCloy. May I ask one question?

As you were leading this or just ahead of the President's car, as you came around past the School Depository Building, was there anything that attracted your attention to the building at all as you went by?

Mr. Curry. Not at all.

Mr. McCloy. There was no movement or anything?

Mr. Curry. Not at all.

Mr. McCloy. You weren't conscious of looking up at the windows?

Mr. Curry. Not at all.

Mr. McCloy. You had Secret Service men in that car with you?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Were they inspecting the windows as they went by?

Mr. Curry. It seemed that Sorrels, he was looking around a whole lot and so was Lawson. I know comments were being made along the route as to first one thing and then another.

Mr. Dulles. If you had had the other Car with police officers in it to which you referred and which I gathered you recommended what would have been the function and duties of the officers in that particular car?

Mr. Curry. It would have been, of course, to guard the President, but in the event that anything happened they would have immediately dropped out of their car with rifles and submachine guns. That was what we had planned.

Mr. Rankin. Now, as a part of the plans for the motorcade, was there anything said about the inspection of buildings along the route?

Mr. Curry. The comment was made that in a city like this how in the world could you inspect or put somebody in every window of every building.

Mr. Rankin. Who said that?

Mr. Curry. This was in a discussion with the Secret Service. I don't recall exactly who said this.

Mr. Rankin. Was it the Secret Service people or your people?

Mr. Curry. I don't know whether it was us or Secret Service. But this was discussed. I think it was Secret Service who told us how they always dreaded having to go through a downtown area where there were these skyscraper buildings.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of any effort that was made to search any of the buildings?

Mr. Curry. Not to my knowledge. We did put some extra men from the special service bureau in the downtown area to work in midblocks to watch the crowd and they were not specifically told to watch buildings but they were told to watch everything.

Mr. Rankin. Where were they located?

Mr. Curry. On the route down Main Street. We didn't have any between Elm Street and the railroad yard.

Mr. Rankin. But you say in midblock?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; especially midblock along the route through the downtown area.

Mr. Rankin. Where would the downtown area be?

Mr. Curry. It would be from Harwood Street down to Houston Street.

Mr. Rankin. Chief Curry, do you know whether Officers Foster and White were on the underpass?