Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. McCloy. (presiding). We are ready.

Mr. Rankin. Chief Curry, I was asking you just as we closed your examination before lunch about Exhibits 709, 711 particularly, and you will recall those are the documents concerning the conversation between Agent Hosty of the FBI and Jack Revill who is your lieutenant of criminal intelligence section, is that right?

Mr. Curry. It was reported to me, I was given a report to that effect.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know anything about the matters described in those letters?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us what you know about them? Do you want to see them?

Mr. Curry. Yes. One of the documents tells me that Lieutenant Revill states that about 2:50 p.m. on the 22d——

Mr. Rankin. Of what?

Mr. Curry. November 1963, that he met Special Agent Jim Hosty of the FBI in the basement of the city hall, and at that time Agent Hosty related to Revill that the subject, Oswald, was a member of the Communist Party, and that he was residing in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make any further inquiry after you got that information?

Mr. Curry. None other than I had a report from V. J. Brian, a detective in criminal intelligence, who was present at the time this conversation took place.

Mr. Rankin. That later report was as of April 20?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. 1964?

Mr. Curry. The last report.

Mr. Rankin. What was the occasion for that?

Mr. Curry. I just asked Revill if anyone was with him at the time, and he recalled that Detective Brian was at the time.

Mr. Rankin. Otherwise, did you know anything more about that matter?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I believe Captain Fritz said that he, he told me he knew they had been out to talk to Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Rankin. By they, who do you mean?

Mr. Curry. Some of the FBI agents, and that he did know that Oswald apparently knew Hosty, because Hosty was present in the interrogation room.

Mr. Rankin. By he there at that point who do you mean?

Mr. Curry. Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Yes; but you say he knew.

Mr. Curry. That Oswald knew Hosty.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Curry. Because according to Fritz he said that he was quite bitter, Oswald was quite bitter toward Hosty because he had made the statement that "you mistreated my wife."

Mr. Rankin. Do you know how Captain Fritz learned that?

Mr. Curry. He was in Captain Fritz's office when this statement was made, according to Captain Fritz.

Mr. Rankin. Now, after the assassination, did you give any orders of your staff, making any reports about anything they knew about either the assassination or the Tippit killing?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; we had all of our officers who knew anything at all about it to submit reports which is a normal procedure in any unusual incident.

Mr. Rankin. How did you direct that that be done?

Mr. Curry. Just through my staff.

Mr. Rankin. Was that in writing?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Rankin. You just told them?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. And was that direction promptly given?

Mr. Curry. I am sure it was passed on immediately. All orders are.

Mr. Rankin. How soon after the assassination?

Mr. Curry. I would say probably within the next day after we met and we decided that an investigation should be conducted into all phases of this.

Mr. Rankin. Did you give any directions about furnishing information immediately about what anyone knew about the killing of Oswald?

Mr. Curry. No specific directions. After Oswald was killed, I called and I talked with Deputy Chief Stevenson of the criminal investigation division the next morning of the next day, I believe this was Monday, and we decided we should appoint an investigative group.

Mr. Rankin. Who was that?

Mr. Curry. That was Inspector Sawyer, headed by Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. Rankin. Who else?

Mr. Curry. And Captain O. A. Jones, and then I think they had some lieutenants assigned to it and some detectives. Their assignment was to find out every person who was present in or around the city hall at the time that Lee Oswald was killed, and to get a report from them.

I know Lieutenant Revill was also in on this, and then they would also, in addition to getting a report, they would personally interrogate each one of them to see whether or not any information they had knowledge of might be left out of the reports.

And you have a copy of all of these reports, both the reports the officers made, the additional interrogation made by members of this investigating group.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether they inquired as to the knowledge of any of these people about conversations with Ruby immediately after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. Curry. I believe they have some reports to that effect.

Mr. Rankin. Was that a part of their responsibility to get those reports?

Mr. Curry. Yes; anything that they had, that they could get regarding this.

Mr. Rankin. And you would expect the police officers to tell anything they knew at once?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. So far as you know has all of that information been supplied to the Commission?

Mr. Curry. So far as I know.

Mr. Rankin. It has?

Mr. Curry. So far as I know it has been supplied.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn about the claims of some police officers that Ruby had said something about the killing to them shortly after killing Oswald?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first learn that?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall exactly, the exact date that I learned of this. But I think the first time it came to my knowledge was that Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service, sometime after this told me, he said, "Now Chief, I don't know that, they could—that I could testify to this," but he said, "immediately after Oswald was shot, I went to his cell"——

Mr. Rankin. Whose cell?

Mr. Curry. To Oswald's—I mean to Ruby's cell, "and I went in and talked to him, told him who I was, and"——

Mr. Rankin. Was anyone else present?

Mr. Curry. There was a patrolman and a guard, I think, and perhaps a detective.

Mr. Rankin. Who were they?

Mr. Curry. I believe Dean was present, Sergeant Dean, I don't know who these officers were but it is revealed in these reports that have been made.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Curry. Sorrels told me, he said, "I asked Ruby why he did it and he said somebody had to kill the son-of-a-bitch and the police department couldn't do it."

I believe he also said, "I couldn't think, stand the thought of having Jacqueline Kennedy having to return to Dallas and go through a trial for him." I told him this was not for the Secret Service or not for publication, I just asked him the question but he said, "I did not warn him against himself, about his constitutional rights, so I don't know that I would be allowed to testify to this."

Mr. Rankin. When did Sorrels first tell you that?

Mr. Curry. This was the—it seems to me like several days after this occurred.

Mr. Rankin. Did you report that to anyone?

Mr. Curry. I believe I told Chief Stevenson about it or whoever was—or perhaps Captain or Inspector Sawyer or some of them. This information was relayed on to the investigating group.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether they recorded it any place?

Mr. Curry. No; we called the officers, when I say we, the investigating team did talk with the officers and they recall hearing this testimony.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when they first gave you any information that they knew of any such conversation?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall that; no, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that the officers ever said to you or placed in writing in any memorandum or communication to you that they heard Ruby say anything beyond what you have described Mr. Sorrels to say?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Rankin. If your records show that the first time any such information was communicated to you, was around February 18, 1964, would you think that was a correct record?

Mr. Curry. Perhaps it is. When Sorrels, if that is when he says it is when it was, perhaps that is when it was. But this was prior to Ruby's trial that I know that he came forward with this information and he said, "It is possible they can use this testimony in the trial of Ruby", but he didn't feel like that he could testify to it because he had not warned him of his constitutional rights.

But that these officers were present, and if they overheard it, then he said, "You ought to at least talk to Henry Wade about it and he might be able to get that in his testimony on that basis."

Mr. Rankin. You think that Dean was one of the officers involved who overheard it?

Mr. Curry. I believe he was.

Mr. Rankin. And who else?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall now. It is in our reports.

Mr. Rankin. Was the officer Archer?

Mr. Curry. I believe Officer Archer was there.

Mr. Rankin. Was it Officer Newcomb?

Mr. Curry. I believe so.

Mr. Rankin. Do you believe whether they testified to something like that at the trial?

Mr. Curry. I was not present during the trial but I understand they did testify.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not those officers made a report about what they knew about the killing of Oswald prior to February 18?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe they did.

Mr. Rankin. You don't think they made any report to you or to the FBI or anybody else?

Mr. Curry. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Rankin. So if they did not include such information in any report or statement prior to February 18, 1964, you don't know it?

Mr. Curry. That is correct, I do not know it.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask, when was, has there been testimony as to when Agent Sorrels told the chief that he had heard this?

Mr. Rankin. I don't recall the date.

Mr. Curry. But it was—I don't recall the date but it was sometime after the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Was it 1 day or 2 days?

Mr. Curry. It was several days but it was prior to the trial of Jack Ruby.

Mr. Rankin. Was it a week later?

Mr. Curry. I would say perhaps it was more than a week later, it was several weeks, I would say, but prior to the trial, Sorrels talked to me and he said that this may be important in a trial of the case.

"Some of the things that Ruby told me immediately following the shooting of Oswald," and he said, "I don't think I can testify to it, but you might talk to Mr. Wade and he might be able to get the testimony entered because these officers were not talking they just overheard the conversation."

Mr. McCloy. This was a substantial period after the date?

Mr. Curry. The assassination.

Mr. McCloy. The date of the assassination?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. And the date that Sorrels was alleged to have heard this from Ruby?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Was it before or after Christmas?

Mr. Curry. I believe it was after Christmas. I just couldn't be sure because I was not——

Mr. Rankin. Where did the conversation occur?

Mr. Curry. On the telephone.

Mr. Rankin. Was anybody present?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr Rankin. Did you make a written record of the information?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I just told Chief Stevenson, who is in charge of criminal investigation, to attempt to determine who was present at that time; that Oswald was—I mean that Ruby was talking to Sorrels, and to see what they heard at that time, which they did, and the officers then made a report.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell Chief Stevenson at that time what Sorrels had told you?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he made any record of it?

Mr. Curry. I doubt that he did.

Mr. Rankin. You haven't tried to find out?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have any practice in the police force about recording statements by the accused in first-degree murder cases?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Now changing to another subject, do you recall—you said that you had made some comments upon the evidence in regard to Oswald and to the media—do you recall what you said about that?

Mr. Curry. I believe I told them it had been reported that we had an FBI report that they had been able to trace that weapon where he had ordered it from Chicago, and it had been picked up under the name of Hidell and that the handwriting was the same on the order blank as Oswald's.

Mr. Rankin. Was this told to a news conference or over the TV?

Mr. Curry. Well, the TV was there. It was not a news conference. I was walking down the hall, and they surrounded me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell them anything else about the evidence you had against Oswald?

Mr. Curry. I only told them I believed that we had some other evidence, but I didn't tell them what it was.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever tell them any more about the evidence that you had against Oswald?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe so; I don't recall it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever tell them about the evidence you had against Oswald concerning the Tippit shooting?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I don't believe I made any comment.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know about when this was made, these statements were made about the evidence?

Mr. Curry. I believe this was on Friday, the 22d, during the late evening.

Mr. Rankin. Is it a common practice for you or someone for the police department to tell about the evidence that you had?

Mr. Curry. It wouldn't be an uncommon practice. There is no law against it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you often do it then?

Mr. Curry. Well, I would say this was not really unusual. It might be—this was an exceptional case; ordinarily I am not involved in these investigations or in making statements, but this would not be an unusual thing to say.

Mr. Rankin. Someone from the police department often does it; is that right?

Mr. Curry. Well, frequently, if they are asked about it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether it is possible to monitor conversations between the prisoner and the visitor on the intercom?

Mr. Curry. Not by intercom. It would be—they are brought into—when a prisoner is brought in to visit with an attorney or a relative he is placed on one side of a wall and the prisoner—I mean the visitor—on the other side, but we don't have any means of recording this. They talk through by telephone. There is a glass that separates them.

Mr. Rankin. Did you monitor any conversations between Lee Oswald and his brother Robert, or Lee Oswald and Marina at any time?

Mr. Curry. I did not, and I don't know of any. We don't have any way of doing it. I mean we have no setup for doing this.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know of any that was done?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Rankin. In regard to arrangements, do you know the Texas law as to how soon after an arrest an arraignment is required?

Mr. Curry. Excuse me now; I am not an attorney.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Curry. It is my understanding that, so far in Texas, being brought immediately before a magistrate would be during the normal course of that court's business.

Mr. Rankin. Your law——

Mr. Curry. When they are in session.

Mr. Rankin. Your law says he shall be brought immediately.

Mr. Curry. Immediately, but it has been——

Mr. Rankin. But in interpretation you ordinarily follow a practice of——

Mr. Curry. During the normal course of the court's business. This was actually unusual because this type of arraignment—because usually it would have been later than this, but we were trying to take whatever precautions we could to see that he was given his—we were not violating his civil rights. That is the reason that we did arraign him in the city hall. Ordinarily we would have taken him before a court.

Mr. Rankin. I didn't understand you to say that the justice of the peace told him he had a right to counsel or said anything about that.

Mr. Curry. I don't recall whether he did or whether he did not. He read all this to him.

Mr. Rankin. That is, he read the complaint to him?

Mr. Curry. The complaint, and I don't recall what all he said to him.

Mr. Rankin. So, according to the practice in Texas at the time that he was taken for arraignment would have been the usual practice or a little earlier?

Mr. Curry. A little earlier, actually.

Mr. McCloy. Were you present at any investigation or interrogation of Ruby?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. McCloy. Did you hear any further elaboration of this charge that Oswald made that Hosty had mistreated his wife; what was the nature of the mistreatment?

Mr. Curry. I was not present when this happened. This was told to me, I think Captain Fritz told me this, and he seemed to gather that he had more or less sort of browbeat her in interrogating her is what Fritz, the impression that Fritz got.

Mr. McCloy. When was that? Do you have any reason to know—Captain Fritz will perhaps tell us about it—as to when that interrogation of Hosty and Mrs. Oswald took place?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. You don't take normally any tape recordings of witnesses' examinations?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. I guess that is all, except the general question I have of Chief Curry. Do you know anything else with respect to this whole matter that you think would be of any help to this Commission in getting at the facts?

Mr. Curry. Not that I know of, except to say we were extremely sorry that, of course, this thing happened in Dallas. We thought we were taking every normal precaution that we could take to insure the safety of the President in cooperating with the Secret Service and all other agencies and we felt like we had done a good job.

After the assassination and the murder of our officer, that our officers had done a good job in making a quick apprehension of the alleged person guilty of this, and that we will have to admit that although we thought that adequate precautions had been taken for the transfer of this prisoner, that one of our officers momentarily stepped away from his post of duty, and that during this moment of negligence on his part, as far as we could determine Ruby went down the ramp, the Main Street ramp, and concealed himself behind some news media and detectives and as Oswald was brought out he stepped forward and shot him.

And if we had it to do over again, and I think this, that some policy should be set up for the news media, whereby if anything of this magnitude ever occurs again, that we would not be plagued by the confusion present that was present at that time, and that the news media should accept some of the responsibility for these things and agree among themselves to have representatives that can report back to them.

Mr. Rankin. Chief Curry, I am not quite clear about the situation with regard to your practices in the police force, and the news media. I understand what happened, as you described it at the time of the episodes that we have been going into, and I understand that you would, if there was a matter of this magnitude again—you would expect and want a very different change?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And eliminate the interference by the news media?

Mr. Curry. That is right.

Mr. Rankin. But what do you do now about the ordinary case? Have you changed your practices about the media at all?

Mr. Curry. Not the ordinary cases; no.

Mr. Rankin. And do they use the radio and TV in the police headquarters?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. Rankin. And they, the reporters, come in, and it is just the difference between a great many?

Mr. Curry. And a few is what made the difference in this.

Mr. McCloy. Do you permit reporters now to come in and interrogate prisoners as they did in this case by holding a microphone up to their mouth and saying, "How did you do it?"

Mr. Curry. They do the same as they do here; on the way from the interrogation room to the jail elevator as they pass by they might run along and ask him questions and try to get him to answer.

Mr. Rankin. That could be done today just the same?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. Because we have no way of keeping them out of the public halls.

Mr. Rankin. Don't you have jurisdiction as chief of police to exclude them if you thought it was the wise thing to do?

Mr. Curry. Yes. Now if I had it to do over again, of course, I would exclude it.

Mr. Rankin. And you could do it today in the ordinary case if you wanted to?

Mr. Curry. I would probably have my hide taken off by the news media, but I could do it.

Mr. Rankin. So, it is really a problem of weighing what the media will do to you against other considerations?

Mr. Curry. And this, too; it seemed like there was a great demand by the general public to know what was going on.

Mr. Rankin. Yes. And that is what you were trying to satisfy?

Mr. Curry. That is what I was trying to do.

Mr. Rankin. Those are all the questions.

Mr. McCloy. I don't think I have anything else.

Mr. Rankin. Thank you very much, Chief, for all of your help.

Mr. Curry. Thank you for your consideration.

Mr. Rankin. I want to offer the Exhibits 701 through 708, both inclusive.

Mr. McCloy. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 701 through 708 were received in evidence.)