TESTIMONY OF JAMES PATRICK HOSTY, JR. (continued 2)

Mr. Stern. And you testified that the notes of your end of October—early November interviews were transcribed after November 22, is that correct?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. Stern. Were the notes destroyed after you transcribed those interviews, also after November 22?

Mr. Hosty. Yes.

Mr. Stern. Did you give any consideration to retaining the notes in view of the turn that the case had taken?

Mr. Hosty. No.

Mr. Stern. The intervening assassination?

Mr. Hosty. No; because this is the record and the notes would not be as good as this record, because the notes are not written out fully as this is. It would just be abbreviations and things of that type.

Mr. Stern. And you received no instructions about retaining notes?

Mr. Hosty. No; we had no instructions. We were following the same rule we had always followed.

Mr. Stern. Why don't you tell us now, turning to your memorandum of the November 22 interview of Lee Harvey Oswald, what transpired from the time you first entered Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Hosty. As this interview form will show, the interview commenced at 3:15 p.m. I am certain of that time because I checked my wristwatch, and Agent Bookhout checked my wristwatch. We both agreed on the time, 3:15. We came in and identified ourselves as agents of the FBI. I told Oswald my name and he reacted violently.

Mr. Stern. How do you mean?

Mr. Hosty. To both Agent Bookhout and myself. He adopted an extremely hostile attitude towards the FBI.

Mr. Stern. Was it the FBI or the name Hosty?

Mr. Hosty. Both. He reacted to the fact that we were FBI, and he made the remark to me, "Oh, so you are Hosty. I've heard about you."

He then started to cuss at us, and so forth, and I tried to talk to him to calm him down. The more I talked to him the worse he got, so I just stopped talking to him, just sat back in the corner and pretty soon he stopped his ranting and raving.

Mr. Stern. What was he saying? Please be specific.

Mr. Hosty. Well, he said, "I am going to fix you FBI," and he made some derogatory remarks about the Director and about FBI agents in general. I don't specifically recall the exact wording he used.

Representative Ford. Had this been the attitude that existed prior to you and Bookhout coming into the——

Mr. Hosty. Apparently not; apparently not. I couldn't say because I wasn't in the room. We walked into the room. I immediately identified myself, told him I was with the FBI, and was a law-enforcement officer, and anything he said to me could be used against him. He did not have to talk to us.

Senator Cooper. Can you describe the tone of his voice and his manner?

Mr. Hosty. I beg your pardon, sir?

Senator Cooper. Can you describe the tone of his voice?

Mr. Hosty. He was highly excited. He was very surly, I think would be about the best way to describe him, very surly; and he was curt in his answers to us, snarled at us. That would be his general attitude.

Representative Ford. Did he use profanity?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir. I can't recall any specific statements he made, however.

Mr. McCloy. Did he complain that you had been abusing or harassing his wife in anyway?

Mr. Hosty. He made the statement, "If you want to talk to me don't bother my wife. Come and see me." He didn't say that I had abused his wife in any manner, and I hadn't. He did criticize me for talking to her. He said, "Come talk to me if you want to talk to me."

Representative Ford. Is that why he knew your name, because of your conversations with her?

Mr. Hosty. Yes; apparently.

Mr. Stern. Had you ever seen Oswald before?

Mr. Hosty. Not until that time. That was the first time I had seen him.

Senator Cooper. Can you remember what he said about the FBI specifically?

Mr. Hosty. He called us gestapo, secret police, we were harassing people. It was along that line. I don't recall the exact wording.

Mr. Stern. Was he handcuffed at this time?

Mr. Hosty. He was handcuffed behind him. After he calmed down he asked Captain Fritz if they could remove the handcuffs. Captain Fritz ordered one of his detectives to remove them from the rear, and they handcuffed him in front.

Mr. Stern. This happened right after you came into the room?

Mr. Hosty. Shortly after we came in the room.

Mr. Stern. Before or after his outburst?

Mr. Hosty. After his outburst; after he had calmed down.

Mr. Stern. Please continue.

Mr. Hosty. Captain Fritz actually conducted the interview. Agent Bookhout and myself sat back in the corner and observed. Captain Fritz asked Oswald if he had ever owned the rifle. He denied he had ever owned a rifle. He said that he had seen the superintendent of the School Book Depository with a rifle in his office a couple of days before the assassination, but that he had never had a rifle in the building. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been to the Soviet Union and resided there for 3 years, and he had many friends in the Soviet Union. Captain Fritz then showed him a piece of paper which had "Fair Play for Cuba" on it, and Oswald admitted to Captain Fritz that he was secretary for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans a few months ago.

He told Captain Fritz that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had its headquarters in New York City. Captain Fritz then showed Oswald a marksman's medal from the Marine Corps, and Oswald admitted that this was his medal, that he had received a sharpshooter's medal while in the Marine Corps.

Mr. McCloy. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.

Mr. Hosty. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.

Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.

Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.

He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.

Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. Stern. The memorandum says, "Oswald frantically denied shooting"——

Mr. Hosty. It should be emphatically, I believe, rather than frantically. I think this probably should be "emphatically denied."

Mr. Stern. Is this your memorandum?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. It is signed or initialed both by you and by Mr. Bookhout.

Mr. Hosty. Right. The procedure is that when there are two agents involved, they both must approve it, so there can be no discrepancies.

Mr. Stern. But you dictated it.

Mr. Hosty. I dictated it and he read it and we both approved it.

Mr. Stern. Have you been over it recently in preparation for your testimony?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Is it accurate? Is there anything you would like to add to it?

Mr. Hosty. I think it is correct as it stands.

Mr. McCloy. I didn't hear you repeating your testimony that he denied ever having been in Mexico.

Mr. Hosty. Oh, yes; he was being questioned about his activities outside of the United States, where he had been outside of the United States. He told Captain Fritz that he had only been to Mexico to visit at Tijuana on the border, and then he did admit having been in Russia.

Mr. McCloy. He only admitted to having been at Tijuana in Mexico?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. McCloy. Not to Mexico City.

Mr. Hosty. Not to Mexico City; that is right.

Representative Ford. There was no recording made of this interrogation?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir; it was notes I took. Agent Bookhout and I took notes, and we dictated from the notes the next day.

Mr. Stern. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. Hosty. No; like I say, he was acting in such a hostile condition towards us that we did not. This was Captain Fritz' interview anyway. We were just sitting in as observers.

Mr. Stern. Did you tell Captain Fritz at this time any of the information you had about Oswald, about his trip to Mexico, for example?

Mr. Hosty. No.

Mr. Stern. About his being in touch with the Russian authorities seeking a visa?

Mr. Hosty. No.

Mr. Stern. About his previous residence in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Hosty. Oswald himself told Captain Fritz of this. I didn't have to. Oswald came right out and told him.

Mr. Stern. About the affair in New Orleans and his arrest there?

Mr. Hosty. No.

Mr. Stern. Did you subsequently tell Captain Fritz?

Mr. Hosty. No; I didn't tell Captain Fritz; no.

Mr. Stern. Was any of this information provided to the Dallas police as far as you know?

Mr. Hosty. I provided it to Lieutenant Revill earlier, as I pointed out. He would have been the person I would have furnished this information to as the head of the intelligence section. He would be the logical and correct person to give this information to.

Mr. Stern. Was that the extent of your advice to the Dallas police?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. McCloy. Did you tell Chief Curry that you had a file?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir; I haven't talked to Chief Curry in several years. Of course I don't deal with him too much on a chief level.

Mr. Stern. Wouldn't it be difficult for Lieutenant Revill to have gotten this information from you under the conditions that you described, running up the stairway and the rest of it? Do you think he heard enough of this?

Mr. Hosty. Well, that is true, he might not have. But you see Oswald then proceeded to tell himself, he told the police all this information, so there was no point in me repeating it when he himself, Oswald, had furnished it directly to the police.

Mr. McCloy. But you did tell Revill that you had a file on Oswald?

Mr. Hosty. No; I didn't tell him I had a file; no, sir.

Mr. McCloy. You did not?

Mr. Hosty. Just as I related here in the affidavit.

The Chairman. Mr. Hosty, I think the answer to this question is implicit in your testimony, but I would just like to ask it directly. Did you or anyone in the FBI to your knowledge for compensation or in any manner whatsoever use Oswald as an informant in any way, shape or form?

Mr. Hosty. I have previously furnished a sworn affidavit to this Commission to the effect that I had never seen or talked to Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the 22d of November 1963. I had never made payments of any kind to him, and, in addition, I had never made any attempt to develop him as an informant or source of information. I have made a sworn affidavit to that effect.

The Chairman. Your answer to my question then is "No."

Mr. Hosty. Correct.

Mr. Stern. This might be a good opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to have him identify this affidavit. I show you from Commission Exhibit 825 a one-page affidavit. Can you——

Mr. Hosty. This is my affidavit. This is my signature.

Mr. Stern. And it was made when?

Mr. Hosty. On the 5th day of February 1964.

Mr. Stern. Why don't you read that?

Mr. Hosty. "I, James P. Hosty, Jr., Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation since January 21, 1952, having been duly sworn, make the following statement:

"At no time prior to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy did I ever see or talk to Lee Harvey Oswald. I have never made payments of any kind to him. In addition, I have never made any attempt to develop him as an informant or source of information."

Signed, James P. Hosty, Jr., Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. Stern. Mr. Chairman, may we have admitted Exhibits 831 and 832, which Mr. Hosty has identified, the letter from the Director of the FBI enclosing Mr. Hosty's affidavit as 831, and 832, which is his two-page memorandum on the interview?

The Chairman. That may be admitted with those numbers.

(The items marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 831 and 832 for identification were received in evidence.)

The Chairman. Is that all, Mr. Stern?

Mr. Stern. There are a few other points.

The Chairman. Let's hurry them along.

Mr. Stern. To conclude that last point, Mr. Hosty, do you have any knowledge of anyone else in the government service, either FBI or any other branch——

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. That tried or was successful in recruiting Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant or employee or agent?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. Did you see Oswald again after the interview that Captain Fritz conducted?

Mr. Hosty. No.

Mr. Stern. What did you do when this interview concluded?

Mr. Hosty. As I stated here, he was removed from Captain Fritz' office at 4:05 p.m. Here again I checked my wristwatch, so I am certain the time is correct.

I then went to the outer office of Capt. Will Fritz and remained there until approximately 8 p.m. that evening.

Mr. Stern. You did not attend any of the lineups?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. Did you talk to any member of the Secret Service at this time?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir; at approximately 6 p.m. on the 22d of November 1963, Special Agent in Charge Forrest V. Sorrels of the United States Secret Service entered Captain Fritz' office with about five or six Secret Service agents. He then proceeded to interview Lee Harvey Oswald, I was not present during this interview.

I did see him take Lee Oswald to the rear of Captain Fritz' outer office and interview Lee Oswald. It appeared to me that Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service had appeared for the purpose of representing the United States Secret Service in this investigation. I was aware at this time that the FBI did not have jurisdiction over this matter, that is, the assassination of the President of the United States, and that if any Federal agency did have jurisdiction, it would be the United States Secret Service. As I later determined, no Federal agency had jurisdiction over this assassination.

When Forrest Sorrels concluded his interview with Lee Oswald, I called him aside and advised him that there was some additional information on Lee Oswald which the FBI headquarters in Washington could furnish to the headquarters of the Secret Service in Washington, and that there were two items, and that I did not feel that I could give them to him directly since they were secret in nature.

Mr. Stern. Was anyone else present during this conversation?

Mr. Hosty. As I said, this took place in the outer office of Capt. Will Fritz. There were about 30 or 40 people milling around out there. There were three or four Texas Rangers. There were perhaps a dozen Dallas police officers. There were, as I said, five or six Secret Service agents.

There were three other FBI agents besides myself, various clerical personnel from the police department who were assigned to the homicide division. I recognized two postal inspectors. I directed this conversation to Mr. Sorrels. I called him to one side and directed this to him directly.

Mr. Stern. Did you repeat the same information to anyone else later on?

Mr, Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. What did you have in mind? What were the two pieces of information?

Mr. Hosty. The two pieces of information I had in mind were the contacts that Lee Oswald had with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City, and the contact that he had had with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C.

Mr. Stern. Were you in touch with your Dallas office from the police headquarters regularly during the evening of the 22d?

Mr. Hosty. Yes. I went out and made phone calls to them, advised them of my interview and how things were going.

Mr. Stern. Did you make any calls directly to Bureau headquarters in Washington?

Mr. Hosty. I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. Stern. Were you advised at any time on the 22d after you left your office of other information, any other information with regard to Lee Harvey Oswald that had been supplied by Bureau headquarters in Washington through your Dallas office?

Mr. Hosty. No; that was all, just what I previously related.

Mr. Stern. Just what you mentioned, nothing else came through?

Mr. Hosty. Nothing else.

Mr. Stern. Were you in the police headquarters on Saturday, the 23d, or Sunday, the 24th, at all?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. Did you have any further discussions with Lieutenant Revill that weekend?

Mr. Hosty. No.

Mr. Stern. At any time until now?

Mr. Hosty. I have had discussions with him on two occasions since then. We did not discuss this matter of the 22d of November, this conversation of the 22d.

Mr. Stern. Did you discuss the assassination with him on either of these two occasions that you recall?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. The only conversation you had with him was going up the stairway from the basement to the third floor of the police headquarters on November 22?

Mr. Hosty. That is correct.

Representative Ford. Do you recall the dates of these two subsequent meetings with him?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir; I don't. Just the first time was maybe in January, January sometimes, possibly February, and that was at his office. Then he came to our office maybe in March. I just don't recall the dates.

Representative Ford. But those visits were on matters not at all related to the assassination or the events surrounding it?

Mr. Hosty. Actually, when he came to our office he was coming to talk to another agent, and I just said "Hello" to him, and we didn't discuss anything official. I just nodded "hello" to him, "How are you doing?" When I went to his office it was in connection with another matter.

Mr. Stern. But on neither occasion did you discuss the assassination or the events surrounding it?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

The Chairman. Have you any further questions, Congressman Ford?

Representative Ford. What did you do on Saturday and Sunday following, in rough outline, involving the assassination, if anything?

Mr. Hosty. I worked practically round the clock Saturday night. I didn't go to bed at all, as I recall, Friday night and Saturday. I was covering various leads in connection with the assassination, talking to people who knew Lee Oswald.

I talked to Mrs. Paine, to give you an example, the first thing Saturday morning. I talked to various people that knew Oswald, just covering general investigative leads in connection with the assassination, like everyone else was. But I wasn't working at the police department.

Representative Ford. You weren't at the police department at all on Saturday or Sunday?

Mr. Hosty. That is correct.

The Chairman. Mr. McCloy, have you anything?

Mr. McCloy. I noticed you mentioned Lieutenant Revill and Jackie Brian. There is another name mentioned here, Gordon Shanklin.

Mr. Hosty. He is the agent in charge of the Dallas FBI Office.

Mr. McCloy. It doesn't say so in this article, but it may be in this by implication. You said nothing or anything that is comparable to the alleged statement, "We have a suspect who is capable of the assassination of the President, but I never dreamed of it," to your colleague Gordon Shanklin?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. When you went to talk to Mrs. Paine, did you go over the premises then with her? Did she, for example, show you where Oswald is alleged to have kept the rifle in the garage?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir; I didn't do that, no.

Mr. McCloy. Did you, in the course of your followup leads, talk to Mr. Truly?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Can you tell us what transpired between you and Mr. Truly?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir; I talked to him about——

Mr. McCloy. Is this anticipating something you have got?

Mr. Stern. No.

Mr. Hosty. This interview took place quite a bit after the assassination. I did talk to Mr. Truly about I believe it was in January or February of 1964, and it concerned the time that he, Mr. Truly, was aware of the fact that there would be a parade through downtown Dallas. And his recollection was that he was not aware of the fact that the motorcade would pass in front of his building until shortly before noon on the 21st when an article appeared in the Dallas Times Herald.

Now the Dallas Times Herald appears on the street at approximately 10:30 a.m., and Mr. Truly said shortly before noon someone from his office saw this article and mentioned it to the office employees and said they all became excited, and this was apparently the first time anyone at the Texas School Book Depository realized the motorcade was going to pass directly in front of their building.

Representative Ford. This was Thursday?

Mr. Hosty. Thursday before, yes. It was shortly before noon.

Representative Ford. The 21st?

Mr. Hosty. On the 21st of November, yes.

Mr. McCloy. But according to your recollection of what he said, all the employees were excited and became aware of the fact that the motorcade——

Mr. Hosty. At that time.

Mr. McCloy. At that time was going to pass the School Book Depository.

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. McCloy. Did you notice that Oswald said in the course of his interview by Captain Fritz that he had not had a rifle but he had seen a rifle in the possession of Mr. Truly?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. McCloy. Did you interrogate Mr. Truly about that?

Mr. Hosty. No, I didn't.

Mr. McCloy. Do you know whether anyone else did?

Mr. Hosty. I can't say for certain, no.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCloy. Back on the record.

Do you know, Mr. Rankin, whether or not Mr. Truly has been interviewed on this subject?

Mr. Rankin. It has been reported to me by the staff that he has.

Mr. McCloy. Does he deny it, do you know?

Mr. Rankin. He denies it.

Mr. McCloy. He denies it?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. But we have no deposition from him in that regard as yet.

Mr. Belin. No; we do not.

Senator Cooper. May I ask first as to Exhibit No. 830, you have it?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Does that represent statements made to you?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. On November 5, did Mrs. Ruth Paine tell you that she thought Lee Oswald was an illogical person?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. And that he admitted to her being a Trotskyite Communist?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Did you know that he had engaged in this Fair Play for Cuba demonstration in New Orleans and had been arrested?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. You were told on November 1 that he was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Had you checked there to see if he was employed?

Mr. Hosty. I made a pretext interview on the 4th.

Senator Cooper. On what day?

Mr. Hosty. The 4th of November.

Senator Cooper. Considering that he was a defector, you knew he was a defector?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. And considering that he had been engaged in this demonstration in New Orleans, and the statement that Mrs. Paine had made to you, did it occur to you at all that he was a potentially dangerous person?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Senator Cooper. Why?

Mr. Hosty. There is no indication from something of that type that he would commit a violent act. This is not the form that a person of that type would necessarily take. This would not in any way indicate to me that he was capable of violence.

Senator Cooper. I believe you testified that you didn't know the route of the——

Mr. Hosty. That is correct, sir.

Senator Cooper. Of the procession which passed the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Hosty. That is correct, sir.

Senator Cooper. Did it occur to you to communicate this information to the Secret Service or the Dallas police about Oswald?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir; there would be no reason for me to give it to them.

Mr. McCloy. You did know he was lying though, didn't you?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Don't you think the combination of the fact that you knew that he was lying and that he was a defector and that he had this record with the Fair Play for Cuba, that he might be involved in some intrigue that would be if not necessarily violent, he was a dangerous security risk?

Mr. Hosty. He was a security risk of a sort, but not the type of person who would engage in violence. That would be the indication.

Representative Ford. What are the criteria for a man being a potential violent man? Is this a subjective test?

Mr. Hosty. You mean to the point where we would report him to the Secret Service?

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Hosty. It is instructions we had as of the 22d of November, we had to have some indication that the person planned to take some action against the safety of the President of the United States or the Vice President.

Representative Ford. How do you evaluate that? Do you have any criteria?

Mr. Hosty. No; at that time it was that there had to be some actual indication of plan or a plot.

Representative Ford. There had to be a conspiracy of some sort?

Mr. Hosty. Well, or a single person doing something if anyone was going to take any action against the safety of the President or Vice President.

Representative Ford. I think you testified earlier that at the time of the motorcade you were at your lunch hour.

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Representative Ford. And were actually eating lunch? When a President visits a community, is the FBI or its people assigned any responsibilities as far as the security of the President is concerned?

Mr. Hosty. Prior to November 22, I know of no incidents where the FBI was called in to help the Secret Service, to my knowledge.

Representative Ford. And particularly on this day none of the——

Mr. Hosty. Definitely not.

Representative Ford. Of the people in the FBI in the Dallas area were given any assignments?

Mr. Hosty. That is correct.

Representative Ford. For the security of the President?

Mr. Hosty. That is correct.

Mr. McCloy. Mr. Hosty, let me ask you this: Suppose you had known that that motorcade was going to go past the School Book Depository, do you think your action would have been any different?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir; it wouldn't have been any different.

Mr. McCloy. Even though you knew that he was located there?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. McCloy. And that he was a defector?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

The Chairman. Senator.

Senator Cooper. Have you received any evidence that any person other than Lee Oswald was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir; I have no knowledge of anyone else.

Senator Cooper. Did you know anything about the attempt on General Walker's life?

Mr. Hosty. I have read in the newspapers about the attempt on General Walker's life; yes.

Senator Cooper. Your office was not connected with an investigation of that?

Mr. Hosty. No; this was not a matter under the jurisdiction of the FBI. It was under the jurisdiction of the Dallas Police Department.

The Chairman. Mr. Hosty, you told us what your instructions were concerning dangerous persons as of the 22d of November. Have they been changed?

Mr. Hosty. I think Mr. Belmont will bring that up tomorrow if it be all right. Yes; they have been.

The Chairman. You will be sure to ask him that to get that from him.

Are there any other questions, gentlemen?

Mr. McCloy. Mr. Hosty, are you still engaged in any aspects of the assassination?

Mr. Hosty. Oh, yes. I am still involved in the investigation of it, what investigation we still have.

Mr. McCloy. And any odds and ends that come up?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. McCloy. You are still in the process of investigating?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. I would like to ask Professor Redlich, did you find anything in the deposition of lieutenant, what was his name?

Mr. Redlich. Revill.

The Chairman. Revill, on this subject?

Mr. Redlich. No, sir. Lieutenant Revill was deposed on Tuesday, March 31, by Mr. Hubert of the Commission's staff.

The Chairman. What date?

Mr. Redlich. March 31, 1964. The deposition consisted almost entirely of questions relating to Mr. Revill's responsibilities in connection with the investigation of the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, and during the course of that interrogation there is nothing at all on the matter which was the subject of Commission Exhibit No. 709.

The Chairman. Is there any reference in his testimony to his going up the stairs with Agent Hosty on the 22d of November?

Mr. Redlich. No, sir.

The Chairman. Nothing concerning that particular time in the police station?

Mr. Redlich. No; there was not.

The Chairman. Very well. That is all.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I answered Mr. McCloy's question in error about Mr. Truly. Mr. Belin tells me that he examined the FBI statement, and there is a statement by Mr. Truly in regard to two rifles in which he explains it, as he says, innocently. Mr. Belin, would you tell for the record what that is?

Mr. Belin. I would almost rather wait until tomorrow morning to have the FBI reports before the Commission, if I can. I think it is a friend brought a rifle.

The Chairman. It would be better to have the report itself here.

Mr. Belin. I will have that for the Commission tomorrow morning, sir.

Mr. McCloy. I think, Mr. Hosty, you have probably answered this question which is very closely related to that which Senator Cooper asked you. You testified that you were continuing your investigation of various aspects of this case. You have not thus far at least unearthed anything which could be called in the nature of a conspiracy?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. In connection with this assassination?

Mr. Hosty. You mean involving someone else?

Mr. McCloy. Someone else?

Mr. Hosty. No.

Mr. McCloy. Other than——

Mr. Hosty. Lee Oswald.

Mr. McCloy. Oswald. And that would cover certainly any connection with Mr. Ruby?

Mr. Hosty. That is correct.

Mr. McCloy. Have you ever interviewed Mr. Ruby?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. I think that is all I have.

The Chairman. Are there any other questions?

Congressman Ford?

Representative Ford. I think earlier, Mr. Hosty, you indicated that the case of Oswald was under your jurisdiction?

Mr. Hosty. Was assigned to me; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Assigned to you?

Mr. Hosty. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. As I recall the language you indicated that documents or papers or reports came to you?

Mr. Hosty. Correct.

Representative Ford. Would this go through the special agent in charge of the Dallas area or what would it be?

Mr. Hosty. Here would be the procedure. The mail would be received at the chief clerk's office. They would then match it up with the proper file, and take it to the supervisor in question.

Representative Ford. Who is that?

Mr. Hosty. Mr. Kenneth Howe was supervisor of the internal security squad, and he would get it first, would read it, and then route it to the agent to whom the case was assigned.

Representative Ford. So Mr. Howe——

Mr. Hosty. Yes.

Representative Ford. Was knowledgeable about the Oswald case?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Representative Ford. Now how knowledgeable would a person in that capacity be about this case?

Mr. Hosty. Well, I might point out where I would have 25 to 40 cases that I was working on, he might have 500 to 700 cases he was supervising, so obviously he couldn't pay as much attention to the details of the case as the agent to whom it was assigned.

Representative Ford. He saw all the documents that came in or went out involving this case?

Mr. Hosty. This case and many other cases.

Representative Ford. Did you and Mr. Howe ever discuss the Oswald case prior to the assassination?

Mr. Hosty. I have no recollection of any discussion of the case; no.

Representative Ford. Is this unusual or is this typical?

Mr. Hosty. There would be a discussion if in my opinion there was something I wanted to consult him on or if in his opinion there was something he wanted to consult me on. If he thought I was handling the case all right, and I had no questions, we would not discuss the case.

Representative Ford. Your recollection is that in this instance you and Mr. Howe had no such discussion?

Mr. Hosty. That is my recollection.

Mr. McCloy. After this one interview in which you participated at least in part with Lieutenant or Captain Fritz, I forgot what his rank is——

Mr. Hosty. Captain Fritz.

Mr. McCloy. Captain Fritz, did you ever interview or were you ever a participant in an interview of Oswald thereafter?

Mr. Hosty. No; this was the only time I participated.

Mr. McCloy. Did you return to the police headquarters the next day?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. You weren't there when Oswald was shot?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Hosty.

Mr. Hosty. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

The Chairman. Thank you for your help. We are very glad to have seen you, sir.

The meeting will adjourn.

(Whereupon, at 5:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)