Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF WINSTON G. LAWSON, ACCOMPANIED BY FRED B. SMITH, DEPUTY GENERAL COUNSEL, TREASURY DEPARTMENT (continued 2)

Mr. Stern. I think we might touch briefly on press arrangements. Will you tell us, if you know, how the final arrangements for the President's visit were announced, and particularly the motorcade route.

Mr. Lawson. I know from reading in the paper how it was announced but I do not know who announced it. I believe it appeared in the Tuesday morning paper. That would have been the 19th I believe. There was quite a bit of speculation before that perhaps the motorcade would go here and perhaps the motorcade would go there, but I believe that the one that was finally used was put in the paper on Tuesday morning, the 19th from my recollection. Let me make sure that Tuesday is the 19th.

Mr. Stern. It is the 19th. Had there been a meeting on the 18th at which this was considered?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; there was a meeting late in the afternoon of the 18th, in a private club in Dallas that I arrived at late. The meeting was called primarily as I understand it because of the various political groups that wanted certain things, and what Washington wanted, and there were various problems to work out as to who got tickets, who sat at the head table, who rode in what cars and so forth. And the local host committee had designated a certain individual to be their representative there, and then these other groups also had people represented. Mr. Puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went with me from Washington, was there. And I had just come from going over the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and I told them as a point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless it was changed later.

Representative Ford. The following morning——

Mr. Lawson. The following morning.

Representative Ford. It was announced in the newspapers?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. It was Tuesday morning, isn't it the 19th.

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; Tuesday morning.

Mr. Stern. Is this a normal amount of advance publicity for this kind of motorcade, regarding the actual route?

Mr. Lawson. Well, it depends on how much notice you have that the President is going there. It was announced this morning that he is taking a trip tomorrow on Appalachian poverty, so we sent agents out this morning. Naturally even if they wanted to publicize the motorcade route they wouldn't be able to do so in this instance. But on other occasions it had been announced sooner than that or about as soon in various areas; yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Did you set up the areas at which the press would be located at Love Field and at the Trade Mart?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; I did, with the approval of Mr. Hawkes from the White House staff, when he made a trip a little bit later. Time was of the essence. Sometimes we do it all when they do not send out someone to represent the press office from the White House, and sometimes they do it. In this case, because telephone lines, power lines, various engineering data would have to be disseminated and fixed up, we had to know where the press areas were going to be before Mr. Hawkes was able to come.

So I told them that I would set it up in the belief that I knew what they usually wanted from the White House press office, but that he would have the power to overrule me, and I requested assistance of a local TV technician as to the angles and what not that the cameramen would like.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask one question there. Do you know whether any consideration is now being given to withhold the announcement of the actual route to be followed by the Presidential party until say the morning that the trip is actually taken?

Mr. Lawson. Does this go into the realm of what we were talking about before as to what we are going to do in the future?

Mr. Smith. It might. Do you suppose, sir, that that is one of the things that——

Mr. Dulles. One has to do it in time so that those who want it could get it, but it seems to me that say if the party was going to move here about noon, now if the morning papers gave that that would give people plenty of time to get to the positions they wanted, but wouldn't give a prospective assassin very much time to prepare.

Mr. Smith. Sir, I don't know what the answer to that question is, but the question arises as to whether this isn't in that area where, you know, we are sort of deferring because of the sensitive nature of it. I don't really know what the answer is, and I don't know whether it is sensitive or not. Apparently Mr. Lawson thinks that it might be.

Mr. Lawson. No, just from your previous things, I can give you an off-the-record answer and you can tell me if it is.

Representative Ford. Why don't we make the same arrangement on this as we had on the previous. Why don't you state for the record what you know and then we will have the same arrangement in this case as we had in the other.

Mr. Smith. Sir, I don't want to quibble but that was sort of an after the fact arrangement in the sense that that it came out in the testimony there after the fact. I was a little bit concerned about it.

I am not sure we would want to make this arrangement on questions and then reserving on the handling of them, because that isn't completely in accord with what I understand to be the present arrangement with the Chief Justice.

Representative Ford. I suggest we do it this way then. Mr. Lawson now shouldn't answer but I suggest that Mr. Stern in the questions that are being prepared, for which answers will be given, that this question be included.

Mr. Dulles. That is entirely satisfactory to me.

Mr. Smith. I am sure you are aware we have no desire to withhold any information whatsoever. It is just a question of procedure here.

Representative Ford. This question is among those that are to be asked in this interrogatory. Then the issue can be raised at that time.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Stern. Mr. Chairman, if you have questions to ask, or Mr. Dulles, about the advance preparation up to the time of November 22, I think this would be an appropriate time to cover it.

Representative Ford. Do you have any, Mr. Dulles?

Mr. Dulles. I don't think of any at the moment; no. It has been very well covered.

Representative Ford. Mr. Lawson. I would like to clear up in my own mind some details. You were notified November 4 that you had this assignment for the Dallas trip.

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Who actually notified you?

Mr. Lawson. Mr. Boring called me. He is assistant agent in charge of the White House detail, one of two.

Representative Ford. That was November 4?

Mr. Lawson. November 4; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Do you recall the time of day?

Mr. Lawson. I believe it was late in the afternoon.

Representative Ford. What did you do next after being notified?

Mr. Lawson. He told me that there wouldn't be any information available of any consequence until about the 8th. So I still had my regular duties and I was working.

Representative Ford. What was the first thing you did officially in reference to the Dallas trip?

Mr. Lawson. I went to Mr. Behn's office and called to Mr. Kellerman on the 8th of November, and got the information that they had up to that time, the proposed itinerary for the Texas trip, the time my airplane left, the name of some contacts and so forth, and then after that, went to the Protective Research Section, picked up this paraphernalia, called the Dallas office that I was coming, and so forth.

Mr. Dulles. Were you advised that this information should be kept secret or is that just understood, when you were first given the information about your assignments? That was kept entirely secret?

Mr. Lawson. Well, I wasn't advised that it should be kept secret.

Mr. Dulles. But you never would give out this information.

Mr. Lawson. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Until it is actually published.

Mr. Lawson. That is right. I believe it was published before that though, however, anyway.

Mr. Dulles. It was published that the President was going to Texas before you went?

Mr. Lawson. That is my recollection, but it is in the newspapers.

Mr. Dulles. Do you remember the date of that? Don't delay on this account. Go right ahead.

Representative Ford. Approximately how many such trips had you handled prior to this one?

Mr. Lawson. I had assisted on some with a more experienced agent, and I had had a few of my own responsibility with people assisting me. I had assisted in Berlin.

Representative Ford. Will you speak a little louder please?

Mr. Lawson. I had assisted in West Berlin in June. I had assisted in Cincinnati on one of the congressional campaign trips in October before they discontinued because of Cuba. I assisted in Albuquerque, N. Mex., on one of his AEC trips. My responsibility, where I had the responsibility myself, had been Cherry Point, N.C.; Billings, Mont.; Little Rock, Ark.

The Billings one was in September of 1963, and the Little Rock stop was in October, the month before the assassination. Those were my two responsibilities. I assisted in San Diego. That was my first assist. Then I have had other assists and responsibilities here in Washington, fund-raising dinners or speeches, lunches.

Representative Ford. I gather then you had the principal responsibility in five?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Or thereabouts?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. In each of those cases was the procedure the same as far as PRS is concerned?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. You would go to the PRS and get a list of the names of individuals and this other equipment?

Mr. Lawson. That is correct.

Representative Ford. Now in the five or thereabout times that you did this in the past, what was your experience with PRS?

Mr. Lawson. I was told in Buffalo, N.Y., of a couple individuals, a couple of nuisance-type individuals more than actual threats. Also told that there were a couple of individuals that came up after I had left Washington on the Little Rock advance. Subsequent to the time that I left, they notified the field office that things were under investigation.

Representative Ford. But only in the one instance, Buffalo, were you actually given the names of a threat, prior to your departure?

Mr. Lawson. Yes; I believe that is so. The other ones were subsequent to that time.

Representative Ford. And in the case of Little Rock you subsequently received——

Mr. Lawson. Yes.

Representative Ford. A name or names?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; and also in Buffalo there were some phone calls to the office that there was a threat involved.

Representative Ford. In the case of Buffalo you had a name or two before you went?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. But in the other cases where you had the responsibility?

Mr. Lawson. Nothing.

Representative Ford. The PRS gave you nothing?

Mr. Lawson. That is right.

Representative Ford. Do you know from your own knowledge, conversation with others who have similar responsibilities, whether PRS normally had names to give to the agent in charge?

Mr. Lawson. Yes; there have been occasions when that has happened, and they are constantly sending over things in Washington, for example. If we are just going out to the Sheraton for a dinner, you always call up and say is there anything particular right now that we should know about, a recent escapee or anything like that that we might not know of yet. They put out lookout notices, send us a notification of people who have lost their White House passes, etc.

Representative Ford. Now, when you actually went to Dallas, who in the Secret Service was under your jurisdiction, or what individual did you work with down there in the Secret Service?

Mr. Lawson. I worked with Mr. Sorrels. He wouldn't really be under my jurisdiction because he was the local agent in charge, and he had various agents, also. On the day of the event his agents would be under my jurisdiction, and also his, because he is normally their boss.

Representative Ford. Howlett; what is his responsibility?

Mr. Lawson. He is an agent of the Dallas office.

Representative Ford. Responsible to Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. Lawson. To Mr. Sorrels; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. You got to Dallas when?

Mr. Lawson. The evening; Tuesday evening, the 12th.

Representative Ford. When did you make the decision to investigate this group of extremists down there?

Mr. Lawson. I heard that there were films available, I believe, on Wednesday, or Thursday. I believe it was Wednesday.

Representative Ford. That would be November 13?

Mr. Lawson. The 13th; yes, sir. And I kept it in mind so that I could talk to the local office about that. I asked individuals in the local office, Mr. Sorrels and also Special Agent Howlett, if they had any knowledge, if they had done any informant-type work, if they had any knowledge of anything that was going to go on that we might not know in PRS, because PRS would only know of definite trips by the President. But they might know of something else that might occur. And also at another time I talked to Special Agent Howlett and asked him if he would view the films of this.

Representative Ford. You arrived there on the 12th, Tuesday?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. You met with Sorrels when?

Mr. Lawson. On Wednesday morning.

Representative Ford. Wednesday morning?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Did you bring up, or did he bring up, the problem of so-called extremist groups?

Mr. Lawson. I believe I brought them up, but I am not sure I brought them up that morning. It was sometime later.

Representative Ford. Sometime that day?

Mr. Lawson. It was that day or the next day that we talked about it. We talked about these extremist groups off and on, of course, all the time that I was there.

Representative Ford. Did you limit it to so-called rightwing groups, or did you have a broader view than that, about groups that might be a problem on this trip?

Mr. Lawson. I believe that I specifically talked about the rightwing groups; yes.

Representative Ford. Did you ever have any responsibility for a trip to New York at any time?

Mr. Lawson. No; I did not. I just assisted in one, the World's Fair opening yesterday, but at that time I had not.

Representative Ford. This would have to be hypothetical under the circumstances, but if in the time prior to November 22 you had the responsibility of a Presidential trip to a community where you knew the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was active, would you have taken any special interest in that group?

Mr. Lawson. I don't know. If at that time I had ever heard that they were particularly, might be any threat to the President, a particular group, if I knew that there was a particular group that advocated the killing of the President, yes. If it was just a political group of one kind or another, no, I probably wouldn't unless I had definite information.

Representative Ford. Did you have any evidence that the groups you investigated in Dallas had any program or interest in killing the President?

Mr. Lawson. No; I did not.

Representative Ford. You had this investigation made of this group in Dallas because of the Stevenson incident?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; I didn't have the investigation made, because I don't think I would be in the position to have it made. Mr. Sorrels or PRS or something like that could have. I asked, since we knew that there were these individuals, and an incident had occurred in the past; although no threat to the President was known, perhaps we had better at least try to find out if they were going to do anything, which is what I did.

Representative Ford. When you go on with responsibility to a particular community, do you normally inquire of groups of one kind or another that have a reputation for political activity of one sort or another?

Mr. Lawson. Not for just political activity; no, sir.

Representative Ford. I meant political activity in the broader sense; not one political party versus another, but political extremist groups.

Mr. Lawson. No, sir; usually, if there is going to be any picketing, an extremist group or something like that, it will come from the police sources or another Federal source. They will tell us that they have heard that certain individuals are going to hang signs from a window as we go by, or demonstrate, or something like that.

Representative Ford. Did you ask the Dallas police or any other local authorities if they knew of any individuals or groups that might be a threat to the President?

Mr. Lawson. I knew that Special Agent Howlett had been in contact with them, both about the informants and going over to view the films. I did not, except when I saw this one piece of literature, and asked them if they knew anything about it.

Representative Ford. Did Special Agent Howlett report to you of what contacts he had made with the Dallas police or other local law-enforcement authorities on this point?

Mr. Lawson. In generalities, yes, sir. He told me that he had seen an informant outside of the city of Dallas, and that this informant had been active in some of the movements; that he had quit because he was afraid, but to his knowledge there was nothing going to occur.

Representative Ford. Do you when you have this responsibility rely on somebody else to ask the local people, or do you ask the questions yourself of any groups that they know of or any individuals that they know of locally?

Mr. Lawson. I believe it would depend on the circumstances. In this case I knew that Special Agent Howlett was in contact with them. At no time—you usually ask the police if they know of anything that is going to occur, but, as I said, just regular political groups, unless I know that they have anything to do with the President, I have never done so.

Mr. Dulles. Would that include the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or Communist groups or extreme rightist groups?

Mr. Lawson. It would have up until that time; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Certainly the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was one that took violent exception to this country's policies, and they were active in a number of communities, including New York, as I recall. It is my recollection that the President, prior to the assassination, had been to New York at a time that this organization was active. What I am trying to find out is, if the PRS doesn't provide you with information about an individual or an organization, is it your responsibility to actually make extra checks locally, based on your own knowledge or your own experience?

Mr. Lawson. Well, I believe it would be my responsibility if I knew of any organization that did advocate the killing or the harming of the President.

Representative Ford. There was no specific information that you had in this case that the so-called rightwing extremist groups——

Mr. Lawson. That is right.

Representative Ford. Had that in mind?

Mr. Lawson. That is right; that is correct. It was also my understanding that, if anything was known about some of these other groups going to plan anything to embarrass the President or hurt the President, we would be notified by the people whose jurisdiction it is to look into those matters or who might have a little bit more knowledge about them than the Secret Service.

Representative Ford. When you got to Dallas, did you personally check with the local FBI office about any individuals or any groups?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir; I did not. All the liaison either would be handled from the local SAC's office or through Washington.

Representative Ford. That would be between some Secret Service office——

Mr. Lawson. Either Mr. Sorrel's office and the local FBI office or from our office to the FBI headquarters in Washington.

Representative Ford. In the ordinary course of events that information would be given to you?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. In this case there was none?

Mr. Lawson. I did find out that the police had sent over a couple of copies of these pamphlets, but that is the only information that I had of any liaison locally between the two.

Mr. Dulles. Are you referring to Commission Exhibit No. 770?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know what action was taken with respect to this pamphlet by the Dallas police?

Mr. Lawson. No; I do not, subsequent to that time.

Mr. Dulles. How long before the President's visit to Dallas was this brought to your attention; do you remember?

Mr. Lawson. Yes sir; Thursday afternoon.

Mr. Dulles. Thursday afternoon; Thursday before the Friday?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. In this preliminary report dated November 19, which is Commission Exhibit 767, I notice there is no information in here about this extra effort that was made down there over and above the PRS.

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Is the format for this laid out in advance?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; it is.

Representative Ford. Do they give you an opportunity to add anything to it if you want to or feel you should?

Mr. Lawson. It could be; yes; I am sure it could.

Representative Ford. Was there any reason why you didn't indicate in this preliminary report what you had done in this regard?

Mr. Lawson. No; that belongs in our PRS section of the report. If this had occurred in September or October, and this report as it is here now, the final report had been sent in early, that would have been in there.

Representative Ford. I don't understand that.

Mr. Lawson. Approximately a month before the Dallas trip, we changed the reports, if there was time, of course, on all these. In Washington, D.C., for an on-the-record movement we have a report made up like this final one, only it isn't called final. It is a survey report, and it has everything in the introduction, PRS, and everything right in it, and then a supplemental report. For our out-of-town trips they had a preliminary survey report, and then a final survey report, so that if the report had been done in September, let's say, that would have been in it, because it is in the regular format under PRS. You put in under the PRS section anything containing any untoward incident, any information that you receive from PRS or anything that developed later.

Representative Ford. This report I have here, final survey report, Commission Exhibit 768, does include that information?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; it does.

Representative Ford. Do you know whether or not Mr. Kellerman had this preliminary report prior to his departure for Dallas?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; I prepared this Tuesday, late afternoon, and Tuesday evening, the 19th, and made arrangements to have it flown by airline to Washington, and then have an agent from the White House detail pick it up from the airplane, which is normal procedure both on the preliminary report, and when we use it to send the complete report ahead of time.

Then I called to make sure that it arrived, which it had.

Representative Ford. This was prior to Mr. Kellerman's departure with the President?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; it had to be done that early because they were gone out of Washington the day before they got to me.

Representative Ford. Are your current regulations for preliminary report different now than they were at this time?

Mr. Lawson. I believe for out-of-town trips we have a preliminary report and a final survey report.

Representative Ford. Is the current format any different now than it was November 19?

Mr. Lawson. I don't believe so. Again, there are things that you can add here, certain stops; you might have a motorcade list and you might not, if there isn't any motorcade.

Representative Ford. I believe that is all. Do you want to proceed?

Mr. Dulles. I have one or two questions that were brought up by your own questions. Did you have any discussion with the Dallas police about General Walker's activities?

Mr. Lawson. No; I did not, but I knew that he was in this rightwing group and that Special Agent Howlett was pursuing this.

Mr. Dulles. Was following its activities?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. And he was one of your local——

Mr. Lawson. He was the local agent.

Mr. Dulles. Agent in Dallas. This morning when Agent Bouck testified, he left with us some memoranda, Commission Exhibit 762, setting forth 10 cases which had been looked into by the Dallas office during the period October 25, 1961 to October 30, 1963.

I note that a good many of these cases are marked closed, but I wanted to ask whether the reports of these cases were brought to your attention either before you left or after you got to Dallas, or are you familiar with them?

Mr. Lawson. I am not familiar with them, but if they are active cases, people that——

Mr. Dulles. In some cases it is stated, "Investigation completed." This particular case, CO2-34007, says:

"Investigation completed on December 12, 1963, by the Dallas office in Texas."

That means that this case at least was closed after the assassination. You don't recall that.

This is a report from a student at the university about a subject that made derogatory remarks against the President. You don't recall that case having been brought to your attention?

Mr. Lawson. I know that Special Agent Howlett told me. I believe this might be connected with one of those informant things outside of Dallas that I was speaking about, but I don't know this—I know it was Texas. Whether this is the same one or not I don't know. But I would only have knowledge of something that was brought to their attention that the President's life was threatened, and I was given no information that such had occurred.

Mr. Dulles. And so you don't recall any of these 10 or 9 other cases here? A good many of them are noted as closed. That situation would not be brought to your attention?

Mr. Lawson. No; they would not.

Mr. Dulles. Would not?

Mr. Lawson. No.

Mr. Dulles. In some cases it is noted, "Subsequent activity none." It is stated, "Periodic checkups were not deemed necessary. Prosecution was declined."

This was the case of a remark made by a gentleman at a bridge party. You don't recall that case?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir; I wouldn't have any occasion to know what cases have come into PRS.

Mr. Dulles. Even if they related to Dallas?

Mr. Lawson. Only if they related to Dallas, and I have been told that these individuals were in the active file, it was an open case, and that we should be watchful of this particular individual, but I was given none of this information.

Mr. Dulles. In your case when you left Washington you weren't given any cases that you considered dangerous in the Dallas area?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir.

Representative Ford. When they do give you the name and the case of an individual such as in the instance of Buffalo, what do you get? What is given to you, I mean?

Mr. Lawson. You are given the name and the number of the case, and then there is a file in Buffalo just like there is a file in Washington, and you can review that file there, and depending on the circumstances you would again have the person followed, or try something to keep him away from the President.

Mr. Dulles. I see. You are simply given the name and the file number.

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Of the individuals?

Mr. Lawson. You might be given some other information, like what it concerns, but I mean you wouldn't sit down and read the whole thing because you could get that in the Buffalo office or wherever.

Mr. Dulles. What would have been your normal practice so far as you can judge if you had been informed that a man, an American had defected to the Soviet Union and had returned to the United States and was living in Dallas and was working in the Texas School Book Depository, would that have been sufficient cause alone to cause you to make an investigation or report it to the Dallas police?

Mr. Lawson. If I had had that information—again this is supposition.

Mr. Dulles. I realize that.

Mr. Lawson. But I probably would have asked advice on it from either the PRS section or the White House detail ahead of it; yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Supplementing a point that was raised earlier, I find that President Kennedy's visit to Texas was reported in the Dallas Morning News as early as September 26, 1963, and the pertinent sections of this press report—it is headed, "Kennedy to Visit Texas November 21–22," and there is also included in the heading, "Dallas Included." The first two paragraphs of this story reported from Jackson Hole, Wyo., that area, where the President was then on a visit:

"White House sources told Dallas News exclusively Wednesday night that President Kennedy will visit Texas November 21 and 22.

"The visit will embrace major cities of the State including Dallas."

That is just to check on the point of the date when it was first published. So it was published sometime before you were notified of your assignment.

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; I was doing the Billings advance. He left Billings to go to Jackson Hole, Wyo., and then returned the next morning again to Billings.

Mr. Dulles. You don't recall having heard that though?

Mr. Lawson. No.

Mr. Dulles. In connection with your work with the President's party on that trip?

Mr. Lawson. No.

Representative Ford. Will you proceed, Mr. Stern?

Mr. Stern. To conclude the advance work, Mr. Lawson, would you describe the advance work for the Dallas visit as the same as or different from typical advance preparations for a trip of this nature?

Mr. Lawson. I don't know if that is too general, but I would say that it was quite a typical trip.

I tried to do everything I could think of to make the advance run smooth, and this trip work all right.

Mr. Stern. The length of time you spent doing the advance, the contacts you had, the time spent by other people, this was typical of this kind of trip?

Mr. Lawson. Sometimes you go out earlier than other times. Actually this was out just a little bit earlier than usual.

An average, if you have to give an average, I would say you are out about 7 days ahead of time. But like I say, some fellows left this morning for a trip tomorrow.

Mr. Stern. Now on the period up to November 22, as I said before, we will rely substantially on what is in your memorandum. If there is anything now that you would like to add or correct in the statements you have made there, anything you would like to add to your testimony so far today before this Commission, will you do so?

Mr. Lawson. I can't recall any.

Mr. Stern. I would like to move then to the actual events of November 22. I show you first a two-page document marked for identification Commission Exhibit 771. Can you identify that?

Mr. Lawson. I can.

Mr. Stern. Will you tell us what it is and why it was prepared?

Mr. Lawson. It was a statement prepared by me on request of inspectors in the chief's office as to my knowledge of the event of the shooting of President Kennedy itself, and I prepared this the day after I returned from Dallas, which was the 23d of November.

Mr. Stern. I now show you a five-page memorandum marked for identification Commission Exhibit 772. Could you identify that for us and tell us how it was prepared?

Mr. Lawson. This is a statement that I gave about as many of my activities, official activities concerning the President's visit the whole day of November 22, and until I returned to Washington early on the morning of November 23, as I could.

Mr. Stern. Mr. Chairman, may these be admitted?

Representative Ford. They may be.

(The documents marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 771 and 772 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. Stern. So that 772, the memorandum prepared on December 1 would include everything that you put in your memorandum of November 23 which was done immediately upon your return?

Mr. Lawson. Yes.

Mr. Stern. Turning to your memorandum of December 1, Commission Exhibit 772, it mentions on page 1 discussion of weather conditions and the decision whether or not to use the bubble-top on the Presidential automobile. Could you expand on that for us and tell us what happened?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; it was quite rainy early in the morning of the 22d in Dallas, and I received a phone call from the Assistant Agent in Charge Mr. Kellerman, who was in Fort Worth with the President, asking about weather conditions in Dallas, and what they probably would be, and discussing whether to use the bubble-top on the President's car or not. I was told the bubble-top was to be on if it was raining, and it was to be off if it was not raining.

Mr. Stern. And then what happened? Did the weather clear?

Mr. Lawson. The weather cleared quite fast. I can't recall now. It was approximately an hour or 45 minutes before the President was scheduled to arrive, and we had purposely put off changing the top until the last minute when we could find out what the weather was going to be.

But it cleared and the weather became quite sunny all of a sudden. Also I received a phone call from Fort Worth from Agent Hill, who was assigned to Mrs. Kennedy, asking what the weather was and whether the top would be on or not. I suppose that was so he could let her know whether she had to wear a hat or something because of the weather.

I told him that it looked like it was starting to clear, but we still had not made up our minds whether to have the bubble-top on or off at the point of his call. But I told him if it was raining it would be on, and if it was clear it would be off.

Mr. Stern. Were you involved in the final decision respecting the bubble-top?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; the weather was clear so I told them to have it off.

Mr. Stern. Then from your memorandum you visited, early on the morning of November 22, the Trade Mart?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. And checked the final arrangements there, returned to Love Field, checked the final arrangements there?

Mr. Lawson. Yes.

Mr. Stern. The President arrived. You might tell us a bit about the reception and the President's greeting the crowd.

Mr. Lawson. Yes. The press plane came in. It was the first plane in, and some agents that were on the press plane that were coming in early were sent to their respective posts at the Trade Mart.

The traveling press that comes with the President were shown the press area, were shown where the plane would be, and so forth, told a little bit about the arrangements there.

The transportation staff and people from the White House press office were told a little bit more in detail about what would happen at Love Field, and the motorcade, and the press arrangements down at the Trade Mart.

Ordinarily you need to provide transportation to the function for the Presidential Seal, the flags, heavy sound equipment that comes on the press plane and all that, and it was arranged for station wagons and trucks to take that.

But they told me upon arrival that they had sent these direct to Fort Worth since it was so close and that we didn't need those. Shortly after this, the Vice President's plane arrived, and I went out to greet it with the agent from the Vice Presidential detail, and showing people where to go if they wanted to get in their cars, and telling them where the President's plane would be, and making myself useful to the people coming off the Vice Presidential plane.

While it was stopping, the Presidential plane was landing and taxiing over, so that they went practically directly from their plane, those people who wanted to greet the Presidential plane, to the rear ramp, where he would be arriving. The President's plane stopped and the greeting committee and the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson and any of those people on the plane that had wanted to greet the President, local Congressmen, et cetera, were over at the President's rear ramp and then I was at the rear ramp across from the greeting committee and the other dignitaries when he arrived.

He went through the greeting committee. I was on his left, the opposite side of the greeting committee, and the other dignitaries. He walked toward the fence. At that time I made sure that the motorcade was all ready to go, and the drivers were in their cars, and told people that were in the motorcade to please get in their cars because as soon as the President was ready, and we didn't know if that would be 1 minute or 10, and as soon as he was in the car, why they would go.

And gave instructions for moving the press ropes out of the press area, because of the tightness there. We had to move part of the press area before our motorcade could drive by. And in general doing all of these little last-minute things.

Then went over to the fence and went along with the President, watching the crowd and talking to a few of the agents on some of their responsibilities, and went to look to see if the lead cars and the other police cars were about ready to go, and saw that the President was not yet, so went back to him, and then got him to his car and ran for my lead car and the motorcade proceeded from the airplane.

Mr. Stern. Is it typical that the advance agent rides in the lead car?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Why is that?

Mr. Lawson. I suppose for various reasons. No. 1, the Presidential driver, although you might have given him a route or all that, he wouldn't really be familiar probably with the streets and all that, and this is the car that has the command police officials in it, and the Secret Service agent that knows the most about the start.

So in any emergency situation the Presidential car will follow that lead car if possible unless told otherwise. It is the best place for an agent, and also he controls the motorcade speed, and so forth, from there.

Mr. Stern. Was there anything unusual in the motorcade until you got to Main and Houston?

Mr. Lawson. Not unusual. There were crowds along the way, sometimes heavier than others in about the spots that it was expected to be that way.

Mr. Stern. What was your impression of the attitude of the crowd generally?

Mr. Lawson. It looked quite friendly, not as hopping and skipping as much as some other places, but very friendly and sometimes people just jumped up and down and screamed and yelled. This one seemed to be a quite friendly group by and large.

On one occasion I noticed a sign, I can't recall what it is right now, but it was an out-of-the-ordinary sign, a sign designed to catch someone's attention, and I thought right then that probably it would catch the President's attention if he was looking to the right-hand side of the car, which he was, and he stopped there, which is not unusual.

Sometimes he would stop for certain groups, certain types of people at certain places unannounced, if there was something that caught his fancy or caught his eye, and he did there. And of course the crowd pressed around, and the other agents got off the followup car, got around his car.

Mr. Kellerman got out. I was a little bit more ahead than I had been. We back up, stopped the motor car, told everybody by radio what was happening, the other police that we were stopped. Before I was out of the car to give any assistance, why we were moving again.

Mr. Stern. Was that a built-up area with high buildings or were you still in the suburbs?

Mr. Lawson. No; that was a suburban-type of area, a shopping center-type of area out away from the downtown area.

Mr. Stern. I think perhaps now you could tell us what you observed and what transpired from the time your car turned into Houston Street off of Main.

Mr. Lawson. As I have said previously today, right around that corner I gave this radio broadcast that we were 5 minutes away.

Mr. Stern. Was this while you were on Houston or had you turned?

Mr. Lawson. We had turned the corner. We were either at the corner, I believe we were just about at the corner when I asked the question if I shouldn't give about a 5-minute signal now so we must have been around the corner then when I actually finished broadcasting. It doesn't take long.

Mr. Stern. Around the Houston-Elm corner?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; right in front of the Book Depository Building, and then a little ways away from that probably by the time I had finished broadcasting.

I noticed a few people along the right-hand side I can recall now, and more people on the right-hand side than out in the center strip median which is there, a grassy center strip. There weren't many people on the left at all.

I recall thinking we are coming to an overpass now, so I glanced up to see if it was clear, the way most of them had been, the way all of them had been up until that time on the way downtown, and it was not. There was a small group, between 5 and 10 that looked like workmen. I got the impression, whether it was wrong or not I don't know, that they were railroad workers. They had that type of dress on.

And I was looking for the officer who should have been there, had been requested to be there, and I noticed him just a little bit later, that he was there, and I made a kind of motion through the windshield trying to get his attention to move the people from over our path the way it should have been.

But to my knowledge I never got his attention, and I have said in one of these statements that we were under the bridge, and I have said in another one that we were just approaching this overpass when I heard the shot. I really do not know which one is so, because it was so close, but we were about at the bridge when I heard the first report.

Mr. Stern. Now just to finish up with the people on the overpass, were they in a crowd together, or spread out?

Mr. Lawson. They were spread out 1 or 2 deep, and as I say, between 5 and 10 of them to my knowledge, and I noticed the police officer standing behind them about in the middle of the group.

Mr. Stern. And as far as you can remember now, in a position to observe all of them? Were they in close enough a group?

Mr. Lawson. Oh, yes; observed them from the back.

Mr. Stern. Observed them from the back. Did you notice any unusual movement?

Mr. Lawson. I did not.

Mr. Stern. Did you know whether the policeman saw your signal or acknowledged it?

Mr. Lawson. I didn't have any acknowledgment of it, and I don't know if he saw the signal or not. At least the people didn't move, They still stayed there in the middle.

Mr. Stern. Were you able to see the sides of the overpass, apart from the area directly over the lane you were traveling in? Could you observe more?

Mr. Lawson. I am sure I could have, but I can only recall the people. My immediate problem was right up there on the bridge, and I was concentrating right there. I don't recall anything on either side of the embankments.

Mr. Stern. Or any people?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir; I do not recall any.

Mr. Stern. Just this group?

Mr. Lawson. This group up on the bridge.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question there. I think you testified just now that your car was very close to the overpass.

Mr. Lawson. I believe it was.

Mr. Dulles. And yet your car was only—well, how many feet ahead of the President's car was your car at that time, roughly?

Mr. Lawson. I am not sure because I wasn't looking back right at that time at the President's car. I was looking at the bridge because of the people up on the bridge.

Mr. Dulles. What was the normal distance?

Mr. Lawson. I think it was a little further ahead than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Stern. Then what happened?

Mr. Lawson. I heard this very loud report which at first, flashing through my mind did not say rifle shot to me. It sounded different than a rifle shot. It sounded louder and more of a bang rather than a crack.

My first impression was firecracker or bomb or something like that. I can recall spinning around and looking back, and seeing people over on the grassy median area kind of running around and dropping down, which would be this area in here.

Mr. Dulles. I might just add the witness is now referring to an aerial photograph.

Mr. Stern. Indicating the area between Elm Street and Main Street, the grassy area between the two streets.

Did you observe anything on the grass strip to the right of Elm Street?

Mr. Lawson. No; I didn't, and it is my impression that my car was in this direction, so that when I looked back, that is why I saw this particular area here and not things over here that we had actually, see, started this curve so that when I looked back I was looking this way.

Mr. Stern. You were looking to the grass strip?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. In between Elm and Main and not to the grass strip across Elm Street?

Mr. Lawson. That is correct.

Mr. Stern. North of Elm Street.

Mr. Dulles. The curve you referred to is the curve to the right.

Mr. Lawson. It curves to the right just as it starts at the underpass, and continues to the right.

Representative Ford. Why did you look back? Is that the direction of sound?

Mr. Lawson. The direction of the sound and the direction of the President.

Representative Ford. Are you sure that the sound you heard came from the rear and not from the front?

Mr. Lawson. I am positive that it came from the rear, and then I spun back that way to see what had occurred back there.

Mr. Dulles. Could you tell at all whether the sound came from above you?

Mr. Lawson. No; I could not. It was quite a general loud bang, an echoing-type bang.

Representative Ford. At the time of the sound you were within 15 or 20 feet of the overpass approximately?

Mr. Lawson. I was quite close to the overpass, yes, sir; but I don't know exactly how close.

Representative Ford. You are sure that the sound didn't come from the overpass?

Mr. Lawson. I am in my own mind that it didn't. It came from behind me. Then I heard two more sharp reports, the second two were closer together than the first. There was one report, and a pause, then two more reports closer together, two and three were closer together than one and two.

Mr. Stern. What else did you observe when you looked back?

Representative Ford. May I ask a question here. Had you turned around by the time the second and third shots had been fired?

Mr. Lawson. Yes; I had.

Representative Ford. Did you get an impression from where they came?

Mr. Lawson. Again just behind me is the only impression I got, but in relation to behind me, where I do not know.

Representative Ford. Certainly not in front of you?

Mr. Lawson. No.

Mr. Stern. You were in a closed car?

Mr. Lawson. Yes; I was. The windows were open.

Mr. Stern. And you were on the right-hand side in the front?

Mr. Lawson. The right-hand side; yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Could you see the President's car when you looked back?

Mr. Lawson. Not that first time. As I looked back I looked right straight and saw the grassy median. Then the second and third shots, reports, I noticed the President's car back there, but I also noticed right after the reports an agent standing up with an automatic weapon in his hand, and the first thing that flashed through my mind, this was the only weapon I had seen, was that he had fired because this was the only weapon I had seen up to that time.

The events after that are a little bit jumbled, but I recall seeing Agent Hill on the rear of the President's car receiving a radio message that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. The nearest hospital was a continuation of our route.

Mr. Stern. Did you know that or were you told that?

Mr. Lawson. I knew that. Let me make a correction. I don't know if it was the nearest hospital, but I knew that it would be the fastest one that we could get to under the circumstances of where we were going under this freeway.

Mr. Stern. Did you know as part of your preparation or did you merely observe it in the arrangements you were making?

Mr. Lawson. I had observed this from all the times I had passed the hospital going over the route; yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. But it is not ordinarily a part of your advance work, or is it, to locate hospitals?

Mr. Lawson. This is not a part of our report, but quite often in my own report in other times I have listed hospitals and so forth, bed facilities in some of my other reports. I did not in this case, but I had noted this hospital.

Mr. Stern. But it is something you pay attention to yourself?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; it is. Again we depend upon the police knowing the city even better naturally than the advance agent to get us to a hospital depending where we are or anything like that, that would occur.

Mr. Dulles. What was the lead car doing at this time?

Mr. Lawson. The car that I was in, sir?

Mr. Dulles. I thought you were in the second car.

Mr. Stern. The pilot car.

Mr. Dulles. The pilot car, not the lead car.

Mr. Lawson. The pilot car was up ahead of us, so appeared other things I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.

When the Presidential car leaped ahead, although there was quite a distance, not quite a distance but there was some distance between the two cars, they came up on us quite fast before we were actually able to get in motion. They seemed to have a more rapid acceleration than we did.

Mr. Dulles. Did they actually pass you?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir; they never did. We stayed ahead of them. The route was clear to the Trade Mart anyway, which was part of the route that we used to get to the hospital.

And then from the Trade Mart on, the route was going to be policed after we arrived at the Trade Mart, so that on the route from the Trade Mart to the Parkland Hospital, which isn't very far, we had to do some stopping of cars and holding our hands out the windows and blowing the sirens and the horns to get through, but we made it in pretty good time.

I also asked Chief Curry to notify, to have the hospital notified that we were on the way. I heard Chief Curry broadcast to some units to converge on the area of the incident down by where it happened. I don't recall how he phrased it, so that they would know to go to the Texas Book Depository area. He told them to converge on a certain area, and that is what it turned out to be.

When we arrived at the hospital, as our car pulled up and was still moving, I jumped out and a couple of the motorcycle policemen that had arrived there ahead of us, I asked them to keep any crowd back, any press people back, etc., as I went running in the building.

I was looking for the stretchers that might be coming our way, and didn't notice any at first until I looked quite a ways down the corridor and saw two stretchers being pushed my way, and I ran down, turned around, put one hand on each one and then as they pushed and I pulled, we ran outside.

The stretchers had to be placed in tandem because of the ambulance area and Governor Connally being ahead of President Kennedy was placed on the first one and taken immediately away. President Kennedy was placed on the second one by myself and some other individuals, and we went into the emergency room area and were shown into a particular emergency room.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Stern. Mr. Lawson, your memorandum is quite complete on the events from arrival at the hospital to your return to Love Field. If there is anything you would like to add to that, please do so, or to anything you have told us from the departure from Love Field to the arrival at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Lawson. I can't recall anything.

Mr. Stern. I would like then to cover with you just a few points on your opportunities to observe Lee Harvey Oswald following his arrest. As I understand it, you returned to the Dallas Police Headquarters with Chief Curry and other police officials after he was informed that a suspect has been arrested, and arrived at the police headquarters somewhere between 3:30 and 3:45; is that correct?

Mr. Lawson. I believe the Presidential plane took off at 2:40 something, 2:47, so that I didn't leave Love Field until after that. It was probably at least 10 minutes after that that we left.

We made certain that the agents had all arrived back from the various places that they were to return to Washington, and that the White House staff, none of them had been left any place, and that the Air Force II was going to pick up any stragglers. The press was going to depart on a press plane, and so forth, so it was probably a little after 3 o'clock before we left.

I recall that it was very bad traffic in the downtown area. We were bumper to bumper and didn't move a few times because apparently the chief thought everybody was converging on the downtown area to see this, plus all the people who had been there when it happened and just stayed there. I arrived sometime quite late.

Mr. Dulles. You were still with Chief Curry?

Mr. Lawson. I was. I was told by Chief Rowley rather than to come back to remain in Dallas. It was quite late in the afternoon we arrived at police headquarters.

Mr. Stern. What were the conditions at police headquarters when you arrived?

Mr. Lawson. Quite a bit was happening. I got the impression they had squads of detectives doing all kinds of things, people working on the Presidential assassination, people working on the Tippit killing. I know that they had squads of men going out doing various things and coming back, and it was quite hard just to keep abreast of things that were breaking as to what each group was finding out as it was happening, and quite often we were way behind.

Mr. Stern. What about the appearance of the press and television reporters and cameramen at that time?

Mr. Lawson. At least by 6 or 7 o'clock they were quite in evidence up and down the corridors, cameras on the tripods, the sound equipment, people with still cameras, motion picture-type hand cameras, all kinds of people with tape recorders, and they were trying to interview people, anybody that belonged in police headquarters that might know anything about Oswald——

Mr. Stern. Can you estimate how many reporters?

Mr. Lawson. There were quite a few. The corridors, up and down the corridors towards the chief's office to the right of the elevator, around the elevator landing and down the corridors to the left of the elevator towards the homicide area were quite packed. You had to literally fight your way through the people to get up and down the corridor.

Representative Ford. Did you stay with Chief Curry most of the time?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir; I was in various rooms and with various people for the rest of the evening. I saw Chief Curry quite often that evening.

Mr. Dulles. Who was in command at that time of the Secret Service detachment in giving the orders and coordinating the Secret Service men?

Mr. Lawson. Sorrels. My advance as such, was over, and I was just another Secret Service agent.

Mr. Dulles. He was in command?

Mr. Lawson. Sorrels would be in command of any Secret Service activity.

Mr. Dulles. Subject of course to orders from Washington; I realize that.

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; and we understood that Inspector Kelley, on one of our frequent phone conversations with Washington, we were told that Inspector Kelley, one of our inspectors, was being sent out to coordinate the Secret Service investigation and to be the overall commander of the Secret Service out there, and he did arrive at approximately 11 o'clock that evening and was met by an agent.

Mr. Dulles. Does the Secret Service have a facility for commandeering, getting airplanes when it needs them fast?

Mr. Lawson. In certain instances, sir, I believe we use the Air Force and the MATS people for advance trips, or if the Presidential airplanes are full and they still need agents to go some place, why they will put on another airplane for us. Sometimes we use Air Force transportation, sometimes commercial.

Mr. Dulles. You have adequate facilities, have you, to get around in time of emergency like this, quickly?

Mr. Lawson. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Chief Rowley would probably be the one.

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. When did you first observe Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Lawson?

Mr. Lawson. It was early in the evening of November 22. He had been in police headquarters for a little while at least before I first saw him, and they had already interrogated him as I understand it, and various detectives, police officials, and Mr. Sorrels and a couple other agents and myself saw Lee Harvey Oswald when he was brought in for Mr. Sorrels to talk to at Mr. Sorrels' request.

Mr. Stern. Did you interrogate him?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Stern. Did Mr. Sorrels handle the interrogation alone?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir; that particular one.

Mr. Stern. What were the questions and answers as best you can recall?

Mr. Lawson. He asked information as to name.

Mr. Dulles. Who is "he" now?

Mr. Lawson. Mr. Sorrels in asking the questions already had some background on Mr. Oswald before he started questioning Mr. Oswald. The detectives or other individuals had told them what they knew up to this point about Oswald, his name, that he had been out of the country previous to this time to Russia, and a few other things. It was known at the particular time, perhaps 6 or 7 o'clock.

Mr. Stern. I take it you had phoned his name to your headquarters in Washington as soon as you knew Oswald's name?

Mr. Lawson. I didn't. Perhaps Mr. Sorrels did.

Mr. Stern. Did your office advise you whether they knew anything about Oswald or had found out anything about Oswald?

Mr. Lawson. Not me personally.

Mr. Stern. That you know of?

Mr. Lawson. Not me personally.

Mr. Stern. Were any other questions asked?

Mr. Lawson. Yes; I recall Mr. Sorrels asking if he had been out—where he had been living, where he had been employed over the last years, and other information Mr. Sorrels already knew about.

Representative Ford. What was his attitude? What was the attitude of Oswald during this period?

Mr. Lawson. Oswald just answered the questions as asked to him. He didn't volunteer any information. He sat there quite stoically, not much of an expression on his face.

Mr. Dulles. Quite what?

Mr. Lawson. Stoically.

Mr. Dulles. Stoical?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Was he belligerent?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir; he didn't seem to be belligerent at all.

Representative Ford. Did he resent the interrogation?

Mr. Lawson. I didn't get the impression that it was a great resentment. He just answered the questions as they were asked of him.

Mr. Dulles. Did he answer all the questions?

Mr. Lawson. I believe he did.

Mr. Dulles. These were questions that Mr. Sorrels put to him?

Mr. Lawson. Yes; of course, Mr. Sorrels, I don't believe at that time, as I remember it, didn't ask him everything that we knew about him.

Representative Ford. Was there a transcript kept of this interrogation?

Mr. Lawson. I don't know.

Mr. Stern. Do you recall any other questions that were asked?

Mr. Lawson. I don't. At this time they were just general-type questions.

Mr. Stern. What was his physical condition?

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question there? The question wasn't asked him at this time, at least while you were present, whether he was or was not guilty of the attack on the President?

Mr. Lawson. This I do not recall. During this I recall I was called out for a phone call a couple of times. We were given information from Mr. Max Phillips, who was in our PRS section, and I believe it was during this that someone, an agent, was wanted on the phone, and I went out and answered this, and they gave us some information on people that it might have been—a case that wasn't Oswald.

Mr. Stern. What was his physical condition?

Mr. Lawson. He was quite, well, unkempt looking, and I recall that he had a few bruises on his face.

Mr. Stern. A few bruises?

Mr. Lawson. I believe over an eye, a bruise or two. I can recall that he had a bruise over an eye or on a cheekbone, or someplace on his face, in looking back. And had a shirt and a pair of pants on. He wasn't very tidy looking, a little unkempt in his appearance.

Mr. Stern. Was he handcuffed, do you recall?

Mr. Lawson. I don't recall. I know I saw him handcuffed around police headquarters quite a bit, but during this interrogation I don't remember if he was handcuffed or not.

Representative Ford. How long did this interrogation go on?

Mr. Lawson. This was not long.

Representative Ford. Five minutes?

Mr. Lawson. Five to ten minutes at the most; yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Then what happened? Did Mr. Sorrels finish?

Mr. Dulles. May I ask one other question there? Was there an interrogation just conducted by Mr. Sorrels, or were there others in on it, the police or the FBI?

Mr. Lawson. I don't know if there were FBI agents there. There were other plainclothesmen there, and a few uniformed officers.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Sorrels conducted the investigation?

Mr. Lawson. Mr. Sorrels was asking these particular questions, general-type questions, and when he finished the police took him back to another area.

Mr. Stern. When did you next see Oswald?

Mr. Lawson. I recall seeing him in another room in homicide headquarters with a couple of plainclothes people and their talking to him. I saw him later in the evening, perhaps 9:30, 10 o'clock, when he was brought down to a showup room, because we had information that a gentleman had seen someone at a window, and so—

Mr. Stern. Do you know who that was, the witness?

Mr. Lawson. I do not know; no, sir.

Mr. Stern. Could it have been someone named Brennan?

Mr. Lawson. The name doesn't mean anything to me. Mr. Sorrels had sent an agent out to bring him down to police headquarters to talk to him, and he informed us he had seen someone in the window, but he had also seen Lee Oswald on television in the meantime, and he didn't know of how much value he would be.

Mr. Stern. Did he say anything about whether he thought——

Mr. Lawson. He could not say yes or no, whether Oswald was the individual or not.

Mr. Stern. Did you notice any irregularity in the way the showup was conducted?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. Did it seem like a normal one to you, the size of the people?

Mr. Lawson. I didn't notice any irregularity.

Mr. Stern. And their dress?

Representative Ford. Had Oswald had any additional physical damage done?

Mr. Lawson. No, sir.

Representative Ford. The last time you saw him?

Mr. Lawson. No; he had not. That was not the last time I saw him, however. Then I later, approximately 11:30, or around midnight, it was announced that there would be a press conference again down in the showup room, and Inspector Kelley had arrived by that time, not too long before that, and Inspector Kelley and I and another agent or two went down to this press conference where it was just completely packed. Everyone couldn't get in the room, the cameramen, reporters, broadcasters, and so forth. Upon a signal——

Mr. Dulles. Who conducted that meeting?

Mr. Lawson. I believe it was the assistant district attorney and Chief Curry and perhaps Captain Fritz. We were just there watching.

Mr. Stern. Tell us more about what——

Mr. Lawson. He was brought in through the crowd and through a side door there, through the corridors, brought in, and I believe the chief and the district attorney each gave statements, and Oswald was asked a few questions then by the press, but I don't recall of it except that he was whisked out again fairly rapidly after that.

Mr. Stern. Do you remember what any of the questions were and his responses?

Mr. Lawson. No, I don't.

Mr. Stern. How many people were in this room?

Mr. Lawson. It was overflowing. You could hardly hear because everyone was shouting questions. That is why I don't remember what the specific questions were and what his responses were.

Mr. Stern. Do you have any impression why this interview was conducted?

Mr. Lawson. No; I do not.

Mr. Stern. Do you recall anything else that was said by the eyewitness that Mr. Sorrels had arranged to be brought in for the showup, anything else that he said while he was standing talking to you or Mr. Sorrels or while Oswald and others were on the——

Mr. Lawson. No; I don't.

Mr. Stern. Then shortly after this showup, or shortly after this interview in the showup room, you left for Washington, I take it?

Mr. Lawson. Yes; there had been quite a bit of discussion during the evening as to what evidence they had up to this time, the rifle, clothing, et cetera, would be brought to Washington to the FBI lab to be worked on, or whether the police would keep it in their custody for a little while longer for their investigation, and there was quite a bit of discussion by various people all evening long.

And when it was finally decided it would be released by the Dallas police, the rifle and other evidence to return to Washington, Inspector Kelley told me to return on the special plane that was flying the evidence and the accompanying FBI agent back to Washington.

Mr. Dulles. Was the evidence turned over to you or the FBI?

Mr. Lawson. To the FBI, sir. I just returned on the plane.

Mr. Stern. Was there at one point a reluctance on the part of the Dallas police to release the evidence?

Mr. Lawson. Yes, sir. They felt, from what I overheard, they felt they might be able to get an identification of the rifle from one of the local gunshops. There were various leads that they wanted to follow out on that rifle that evening and the next day. I believe there was some talk that they couldn't locate some of the gunshop owners, and some of the other things they wanted to do. So they wished to keep this rifle for a day or so and then release it.

Mr. Stern. I am told this has been covered with other witnesses, so there is no need to pursue it. I have nothing further.

Representative Ford. How long was this interview where Oswald was present?

Mr. Lawson. The press interview, sir?

Representative Ford. How long was he before the press?

Mr. Lawson. I would say 5 minutes at the most.

Representative Ford. I have no other questions.

Mr. Dulles. I have no other questions.

Representative Ford. Is that all, Mr. Stern?

Mr. Stern. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Thank you very much, Mr. Lawson, you have been very helpful.

Mr. Dulles. We appreciate it very much.

(Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)