TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ (continued 2)

Mr. Ball. You had had your laboratory enlarge the picture that your men had brought back from Irving?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; he said that wasn't his picture, he said, "I have been through that whole deal with all people in the cameras," he said, "One has taken my picture and that is my face and put a different body on it." He said, I know all about photography, I worked with photography for a long time. That is a picture that someone else has made. I never saw that picture in my life."

I said, "Wait just a minute, and I will show you one you have seen probably," and I showed him the little one this one was made from and when I showed him the little one he said, "I never have seen that picture, either." He said, "That is a picture that has been reduced from the big one."

Mr. Ball. I show you Commission No. 133, is that the small picture?

Mr. Fritz. The small picture; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. A picture of the small picture?

Mr. Fritz. A picture of the small picture, I guess this is.

Mr. Ball. There are two pictures on 133. Which one was it?

Mr. Fritz. On the left.

Mr. Ball. The one on the left?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; the one holding the two papers.

Mr. Belin. As you face the picture?

Mr. Ball. As you face the picture the one on the left? [Exhibit No. 133-A.]

Mr. Fritz. There is a lot of questioning in our mind about the time of this middle day questioning here. We checked it over and over and we can't be sure about the time and I don't want to go on record as not knowing whether this time is correct because it might not be.

Mr. Ball. You mean 12:35?

Mr. Fritz. 12:35.

Mr. Ball. But you do know this conversation——

Mr. Fritz. I do know we talked to him a number of times all along, and these questions and answers are right, but the times may be off.

Mr. Ball. You did show him this picture, a picture of Oswald with a rifle and pistol?

Mr. Fritz. I showed him that at one of those interviews, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And he denied that that was a picture of him.

Mr. Fritz. That is true; yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. Ball. There was another showup that afternoon at 2:15?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. At which time two cabdrivers, one named Scoggins and one named Whaley were shown Oswald. Were you present at that showup?

Mr. Fritz. I don't think so. I will look and see right quickly but I don't think I was. That would have been on the 23d.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. That shows him—M. G. Hall—wait a minute, I am in the wrong one, pardon me. Showup No. 4, shows Officers V. S. Hinkel, Walter Potts, M. G. Hall, C. W. Brown, and J. R. Leavelle who was with the people handling the showup.

Mr. Ball. Your records also show that you were brought—he was brought to your office again at 6 o'clock?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Will you look at page 138B of your notes. (Commission Document 81B) Was that the time you talked to him about the rifle?

Mr. Fritz. 6 o'clock?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. That is when I showed an enlarged picture, yes, sir, that is what I show here, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. In the meantime you had gone out to Neely Street, hadn't you, to try to determine whether or not this was the place for the rifle?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; we didn't find that out until some time later.

Mr. Ball. You didn't?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; we had heard of the Neely Street address but we didn't know that that was the place where the picture was taken. But later on, Mr. Sorrels and some of the Secret Service men called me and they had found out, I believe from Marina, that that is where the picture was made and they called me and asked me to go with them and we made some other pictures out there to show the place.

Mr. Ball. On this evening at 6 o'clock who was present at the questioning?

Mr. Fritz. At the questioning, just a minute.

Mr. Dulles. What is the reference to the Marines?

Mr. Ball. Marina.

Mr. Dulles. Marina, I didn't catch it.

Mr. Ball. Who was present at that, do you remember, on 6 o'clock on Saturday evening, the 23d? See page 138B.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I believe Mr. Bookhout, Inspector Kelley, myself, and officers.

Mr. McCloy. This was an interrogation?

Mr. Fritz. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Was that the time when he told you, someone superimposed the picture on his face?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. Ball. After he had talked to you a while he told you he didn't want to talk to you any more, didn't he?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Look on the second page, 138C, and tell me what happened. Give me in your own words what occurred there.

Mr. Fritz. You mean about the picture?

Mr. Ball. Tell me in your own words, yes.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; at that time he told me that—the first of the page up here is when he told me he didn't want to answer more questions. "I just told you about that but you want to know something else about this other party."

Mr. Ball. You talked to him sometime later.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I showed him this map, showed him a map of the city of Dallas that he had, and the map had been brought in from his address on North Beckley, and he told me that those markings, they had several markings on this map, one of them was near——

Mr. Ball. Wait a minute, isn't that the next morning? We are talking about Saturday night now, you have told us about showing him the enlarged photograph.

Mr. Fritz. I show 9:30 the morning of the 24th.

Mr. Ball. I am talking about the night.

Mr. Fritz. All right.

Mr. Dulles. 6:30 at night.

Mr. Ball. 6:30 in the evening.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You showed him the photographs?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; pictures.

Mr. Ball. And he told you they weren't his?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did he tell you then? Didn't he tell you then he didn't want to answer any more questions?

Mr. Fritz. Let's see if he did.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. That is the time that he told me about the photography, that he knew all about photography, and then he said, he didn't want to answer any more questions.

Mr. Ball. What time did you put him back in jail?

Mr. Fritz. 7:15 p.m.

Mr. Ball. And you didn't see him again that night?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, the next morning you checked him out of jail?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; the 24th we had him down in the morning, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who was present that time?

Mr. Fritz. That time here at 9:30 in the morning, one of the postal inspectors, Mr. Holmes, Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Bookhout, and I am not sure about Mr. Sorrels staying in there all the time. He was in there part of the time, and that is the time that I showed him the map, too, that morning with these markings on it.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. Well, he said they didn't mean anything. Those markings were places he had gone looking for work. I asked him at that time, too, more about his religious beliefs, and Inspector Kelley asked him what he thought about religion and he said he didn't think too much of it. I believe he said of the philosophy of religion.

So he asked him two or three other questions and he was a little evasive so I asked him if he believed in a deity. He said he didn't care to discuss that with me.

Mr. Ball. What else was said?

Mr. Fritz. I asked him, too, I believe on that same morning, I asked him more about his political beliefs and he told me he didn't belong to any political party and he told me he was a Marxist but that he wasn't a Marxist-Leninist, that he was just a Marxist, and that he again told me that he believed in the Castro revolution. That is the morning of the transfer.

Mr. Ball. You asked him about the gun again, didn't you?

Mr. Fritz. I asked him about a lot of things that morning, I sure did.

Mr. Ball. Tell us about it.

Mr. Fritz. He denied anything about Alek Hidell, and again about his belief in the Fair Play for Cuba.

Mr. Ball. What about the rifle?

Mr. Fritz. I asked him about the Neely Street address and he denied that address. He denied having a picture made over there and he even denied living there. I told him he had people who visited him over there and he said they were just wrong about visiting.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him again about the rifle, did you ask him if that was the picture, that that rifle was his?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I am sure I did.

Mr. Ball. Look at your notes.

Mr. Fritz. All right, sir. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him again if that was his picture holding the rifle and he said it was not.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He denied it. He said he didn't have any knowledge of the picture at all. He said someone else had made it, he didn't know a thing about it or the rifle.

Mr. Ball. Didn't you also that same morning again ask him if he brought a sack with him to work on the morning the President was killed?

Mr. Fritz. Well, I asked him. I believe that morning I might have asked him that. I believe I asked him about the sack.

Mr. Ball. Without looking at your notes there let me ask you this.

Mr. Fritz. All right.

Mr. Ball. When you did ask him about the sack, you did ask him about it, a sack at one time bringing a sack to work that morning?

Mr. Fritz. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. And you asked him the size and shape of the sack, didn't you?

Mr. Fritz. He never admitted bringing the sack. I showed him the size probably in asking him if he brought a sack that size and he denied it. He said he brought his lunch was all he brought.

Mr. Ball. Didn't he say when you asked him the size and shape of the sack that he had with him, he said, "I don't recall, it may have been a small sack or a large sack. You don't always find one that fits your sandwiches," something like that.

Mr. Fritz. That might be true but he said it was a small sack. He said it was a lunch sack.

Mr. Ball. Didn't you ask him where he usually kept his sacks, how he carried it when he came to work in the car?

Mr. Fritz. I asked him where he had the sack—his lunch, and he said he had it in the front seat with him.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him if he put any sack in the back seat?

Mr. Fritz. He said he did not.

Mr. Ball. Did you tell him that Frazier had told you that he had had a long parcel and placed it in the back seat?

Mr. Fritz. I am not sure about saying Frazier, I am looking at this note to see if I did.

Mr. Ball. The driver of the car——

Mr. Fritz. I remember telling him that someone told me that and I might have told him that two people saw him because not only Frazier but Frazier's sister saw that package, you know, and I did question him about that.

Mr. Ball. Did he say anything like this? "He might be mistaken or perhaps thinking about some other time when he picked me up."

Mr. Fritz. That is probably right.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember that?

Mr. Fritz. I don't remember it this time but if it is in that note that is probably right.

Mr. Ball. On the curtain rods story, do you remember whether you ever asked him if he told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package?

Mr. Fritz. If I asked him what, please, sir?

Mr. Ball. Did you ever ask Oswald whether or not he had told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package?

Mr. Fritz. I am sure I did but I can't remember that right now. But I am sure I asked him that because I must have asked him that because I asked him a lot of questions, I asked him if he was fixing his house, I remember asking about that, and he said he was not.

Mr. Ball. He said he was what?

Mr. Fritz. He was not.

Mr. Ball. He said he was not fixing it?

Mr. Fritz. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what he said in reply to your question?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I don't remember what he said about that.

Mr. Ball. Was he questioned about post office boxes that morning?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I did, I asked him about those post office boxes, because the postal inspector had told us about those boxes, and Mr. Holmes did most of the talking to him about the boxes, and he knew about the boxes and where they were, and he said he had, and I asked him too if he had ordered a rifle to be shipped to one of those boxes, and he said he had not, to one of those box numbers.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him why he had the boxes?

Mr. Fritz. He told me that he had, one of the boxes, if I remember correctly, he never admitted owning at all. The other box he told me he got his, he kept to get his mail, that he said he got some papers from Russia and correspondence with people from Russia and he used that box for his mail.

Mr. Ball. How long did you talk to him this morning of November 24?

Mr. Fritz. Morning, well, let's see, I am not sure what time we started talking to him.

Mr. Ball. 9:30.

Mr. Fritz. 9:30, we talked to him then until about—I have the exact time here.

Mr. Ball. Can we cut it shorter, your records show 11:15 in your office.

Mr. Fritz. Here it is, 11:15.

Mr. Ball. Is that right?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. First of all, I am going to go through some generally without identifying the particular place but just the subject matter.

In an interview with him you did ask him about the pistol, didn't you?

Mr. Fritz. Which pistol, the one he shot Tippit with?

Mr. Ball. The one he had with him when he was arrested.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I asked him about it, yes, I did.

Mr. Ball. You asked him when he got it and where he got it?

Mr. Fritz. He said he bought it in Fort Worth about 6 or 7 months ago.

Mr. Ball. How long ago?

Mr. Fritz. 6 or 7 months.

Mr. Ball. Did he tell you where in Fort Worth?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; he wouldn't tell me.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I asked him.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He just wouldn't tell me.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him why he had five live .38 caliber bullets in his shirt?

Mr. Fritz. Yes; in his pocket?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. No; I didn't ask him that.

Mr. Ball. You didn't ask him that?

Mr. Fritz. No.

Mr. Ball. Now you did ask him about the photograph, his photograph, the photograph that was found in his garage?

Mr. Fritz. That is right.

Mr. Ball. That shows him with a rifle and pistol?

Mr. Fritz. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He said it was not his picture at all.

Mr. Ball. You did ask him if he had purchased a rifle from Klein's store in Chicago, Ill., didn't you?

Mr. Fritz. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He said he did not.

Mr. Ball. You did ask him how he explained the photograph, didn't you?

Mr. Fritz. How he explained the photograph?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. I asked him about the photograph and he said someone else took it. It wasn't his picture at all. He said someone in the hall had taken his picture and made that photograph.

Mr. Ball. In other words, he said the face was his face but the picture was made by somebody superimposing his face?

Mr. Fritz. That is right; yes.

Mr. Ball. He denied ever having lived on Neely Street, did he?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Ball. And you asked him also if he had ever owned a rifle?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He said he had not. He said a long time ago he owned a small rifle.

Mr. Ball. What size did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He didn't say. He said small rifle.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him if he kept a rifle in Mrs. Paine's garage at Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; and I asked him if he brought it from New Orleans and he said no.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him where he kept, if he did keep a rifle in a blanket?

Mr. Fritz. I asked him if he kept it in a blanket and he said no.

Mr. Ball. Didn't you tell him someone told you he had kept it there?

Mr. Fritz. Someone told me he had a rifle and wrapped in a blanket and kept it in the garage and he said he didn't. It wasn't true.

Mr. Ball. Did he at any time tell you when you asked him if he owned a rifle, did he say, "How could I afford to order a rifle on my salary of a dollar and a quarter an hour," something like that?

Mr. Fritz. I don't remember that.

Mr. Ball. You asked him whether or not he shot President Kennedy, didn't you?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He said he did not.

Mr. Ball. And you asked him if he shot Governor Connally?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; he said he didn't do that, he said he didn't shoot Tippit.

Mr. Ball. With reference to where he was at the time the President was shot, did he tell you what floor of the building he was on?

Mr. Fritz. I feel sure that he told me he was on the second floor.

Mr. Ball. Look at 136B.

Mr. Fritz. All right, sir.

Mr. Ball. The second paragraph down, 136B.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; second floor; yes, sir. He said he usually worked on the first floor. I asked him what part of the building at the time the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor.

Mr. Ball. In his first interview you say that Hosty asked him if he had been to Mexico.

Mr. Fritz. Yes; he did.

Mr. Ball. He denied it. Did he say he had been at Tijuana once?

Mr. Fritz. I don't remember him saying he had been at Tijuana.

Mr. Ball. What did you remember him saying?

Mr. Fritz. I remember him saying he had been to Russia, told me he had been to Russia, and was over there for some time, and he told Hosty that he had a record of that, knew he had been there, told him a number of things so far as that is concerned.

Mr. Ball. What did he say about Mexico?

Mr. Fritz. Mexico, I don't remember him admitting that he had been to any part of Mexico.

Mr. Ball. What do you remember him saying?

Mr. Fritz. I remember he said he did not go to Mexico City and I don't remember him saying he ever went to Tijuana.

Mr. Ball. In your report at 138E you have made a statement there of the conditions under which this interrogation proceeded, haven't you?

Mr. Fritz. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. Will you tell us about that. You can describe it either as you state it here in your own words, but tell us what your difficulties were?

Mr. Fritz. I can tell you in just a minute. My office is small as you know, it is a small office, it doesn't have too much room to begin with.

With all the outer office full of officers who all wanted to help and we were glad to have their assistance and help, and we appreciate it, but in the hallway we had some 200 news reporters and cameramen with big cameras and little cameras and cables running on the floors to where we could hardly get in and out of the office.

In fact, we had to get two police officers assigned to the front door to keep them out of the office so we could work.

My office is badly arranged for a thing of this kind. We never had anything like this before, of course. I don't have a back door and I don't have a door to the jail elevator without having to go through that hall for 20 feet, and each time we went through that hallway to and from the jail we had to pull him through all those people, and they, of course, would holler at him and say things to him, and some of them were bad things, and some were things that seemed to please him and some seemed to aggravate him, and I don't think that helped at all in questioning him. I think that all of that had a tendency to keep him upset.

Mr. Ball. What about the interview itself?

Mr. Fritz. Now the interview itself inside, of course, we did have a lot of people in the office there to be interviewing a man. It is much better, and you can keep a man's attention and his thoughts on what you are talking to him about better I think if there are not more than two or three people.

But in a case of this nature as bad as this case was, we certainly couldn't tell the Secret Service and the FBI we didn't want them to work on it because they would have the same interest we would have, they would want to do anything they could do, so we, of course, invited them in too but it did make a pretty big crowd.

Mr. Ball. Did you have any tape recorder?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I don't have a tape recorder. We need one, if we had one at this time we could have handled these conversations far better.

Mr. Ball. The Dallas Police Department doesn't have one?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I have requested one several times but so far they haven't gotten me one.

Mr. Ball. And you had quite a few interruptions, too, during the questioning, didn't you?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; we had quite a lot of interruptions. I wish we had had—under the circumstances, I don't think there is much that could have been done because I saw it as it was there and I don't think there was a lot that could have been done other than move that crowd out of there, but I think it would have been more apt to get a confession out of it or get more true facts from him if I could have got him to sit down and quietly talked with him.

Mr. Ball. While he was in your custody up to this time at 11:15, when he left your office what precautions did you take for his safety in custody?

Mr. Fritz. In custody. We took all kinds of precautions to keep him, anyone from hurting him. We had an officer go with the jailer and back and we did everything we thought we could do.

As I told you a while ago we even put officers on the stage with him and when we couldn't do that put officers at the end of the stage with him so they could get quickly to him if anybody tried to hurt him or molest him.

Mr. Ball. In your office you always had officers with him?

Mr. Fritz. Always, right near him.

Mr. Ball. When you went down this crowded hallway, how did you protect him?

Mr. Fritz. There were officers went with him each time.

Mr. Ball. How many?

Mr. Fritz. From three to six.

Mr. Ball. And in the jail, what did you do?

Mr. Fritz. In the jail, I don't know. I didn't handle the jail.

Mr. Ball. You didn't handle the jail?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I don't handle the jail. I am sure though they used more than average precautions up there.

Mr. Ball. When you left at 11:15, what was your purpose in leaving at 11:15?

Mr. Fritz. To transfer him to the—you are talking about the 24th?

Mr. Ball. On the 24th, yes.

Mr. Fritz. To transfer him to the county jail.

Mr. Ball. Had you been requested by Sheriff Decker to transfer him there before?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir. I had talked to the chief about transferring him down there. The chief had called me on the 23d, on the 23d, I can't give you the exact minute, probably a little after noon, he had called me and asked me when we would be ready to transfer him and I told him we were still questioning him. We didn't want to transfer him yet. He said, "Can he be ready by about 4 o'clock? Can he be transferred by 4 o'clock?" I told him I didn't think we could.

Mr. Ball. That would be Saturday afternoon?

Mr. Fritz. That would be the 23d, would be Saturday, yes, sir. Then he asked me could he be ready by 10 o'clock in the morning, so I could tell these people something definitely, and I felt sure we would be ready by then. However, we didn't, we ran overtime as you can see by this report, an hour and a half over, when they come over to transfer him.

Mr. Ball. Why did you say you would not be ready by 4 o'clock on Saturday?

Mr. Fritz. We wanted to ask him some more questions, to get more information.

Mr. Ball. Did you consider transferring him at night?

Mr. Fritz. At night?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. During the night on Saturday night, I had a call at my home from uniformed captain, Captain Frazier, I believe is his name, he called me out at home and told me they had had some threats and he had to transfer Oswald.

And I said, well, I don't know. I said there has been no security setup, and the chief having something to do with this transfer and you had better call him, because—so he told me he would.

Mr. Ball. Did you think——

Mr. Fritz. He called me back then in a few minutes and he told me he couldn't get the chief and told me to leave him where he was. I don't think that transferring him at night would have been any safer than transferring, may I say this?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. Any safer than transferring him during the day. I have always felt that that was Ruby who made that call, I may be wrong, but he was out late that night and I have always felt he might have made that call, if two or three of those officers had started out with him they may have had the same trouble they had the next morning.

I don't know whether we had been transferring him ourselves, I don't know that we would have used this same method but we certainly would have used security of some kind.

Mr. Ball. Now weren't you transferring him?

Mr. Fritz. Sir, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean if we were transferring him ourselves?

Mr. Fritz. I mean transferring like I was told to transfer him.

Mr. Ball. I beg your pardon?

Mr. Fritz. I was transferring him like the chief told me to transfer him.

Mr. Ball. How would you have transferred him?

Mr. Fritz. I did do one thing here, I should tell you about. When the chief came back and asked me if I was ready to transfer him, I told him I had already complained to the chief about the big cameras set up in the jail office and I was afraid we couldn't get out of the jail with him with all those cameras and all those people in the jail office.

So when the chief came back he asked if we were ready to transfer and I said, "We are ready if the security is ready," and he said, "It is all set up." He said, "The people are across the street, and the newsmen are all well back in the garage," and he said "It is all set."

And at that time he told me, he said, "We have got the money wagon up there to transfer him in," and I said, "Well, I don't like the idea, chief, of transferring him in a money wagon." We, of course, didn't know the driver, nor who he was, nor anything about the money wagon, and he said, "Well, that is all right. Transfer him in your car like you want to, and we will use the money wagon for a decoy, and I will have a squad to lead it up to the central expressway and across to the left on Elm Street and the money wagon can turn down Elm Street and you can turn down Main Street, when you get to Main Street, going to the county jail," and he told me he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at the county jail, that is when we started out.

Mr. Ball. How would you have done it if you were going to do it?

Mr. Fritz. Well, I hesitate to say because it didn't work good this way. If I had done it like I would do it or usually do it or something and it hadn't worked I would be just in the same shape you know, and it would be just as bad, so I don't like to be critical of something because it turned out real bad.

You can kind of understand my—I know that our chief didn't know anything was going to happen or he surely wouldn't have told me to transfer it that way.

Mr. Ball. How would you have done it?

Mr. Fritz. Well, we transferred Ruby the next day at about the same time, and I had two of the officers from my office to pick me up away from the office. We drove by the county jail, saw that the driveway was open. We had about the same threats on him that we did with Oswald. We saw that the driveway was open. I went back to the bus station and I called one of my officers upstairs, gave him the names of two other officers, told him to get those two officers and not tell anyone even in the office where they were going, mark Ruby transferred temporarily, which means coming to the office or going for some fingerprints or anything, mark him transferred temporarily, bring him down to the jail elevator at the bottom of the jail, put two of them to stay in the jail elevator with him. For the other one to come to the outside door and when he saw our car flush with the door, bring that man right through those cameras and put him in the back seat, and they did, they shot him right through those people and they didn't even get pictures and we had him lie down on the back seat and two officers lean back over him and we drove him straight up that same street, turned to the left down Main Street, ran him into the jail entrance, didn't even tell the jailer we were coming and put him in the jail. It worked all right.

But now if it hadn't worked, you know, I don't want to be saying that I know more about transferring than someone else, because this could happen to me. I could see if it happened to Ruby, I would have had all the blame.

Mr. Ball. Now, if on that morning at 11:15 you planned to transfer him, didn't you, according to the chief's orders?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. And you were through questioning him, weren't you?

Mr. Fritz. Sir?

Mr. Ball. You were all through questioning him?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; we had everything that we could do at that time. I would have talked to him later in the county jail but we didn't need to hold the man any longer.

Mr. Ball. Had he been handcuffed?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; and I told—he was already handcuffed, and I told one of the officers to handcuff his left hand to Oswald's right hand, and to keep him right with him.

Mr. Ball. That was Leavelle?

Mr. Fritz. Leavelle, yes, sir. He first started the other hand on the other side, and I told Officer Graves to get on the other side and Montgomery to follow him, and I would go down and an officer by the name of Swain who works across the hall from us came over and offered to help us, he went down the jail elevator and he went out ahead of me and I went out in back of him and I was approaching our car to open the back door to put him in, they were having a terrible time to get the car in through the people—they were crowding all over the car—and I heard the shot and I turned just in time to see the officers push Ruby to the pavement.

Mr. Ball. When you came out of the jail door were the lights on?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; the lights were on. I don't believe they were on as we came to the door, but they came out immediately as we were coming out of the door, and I asked one of the officers, two of them answered me if everything was secure and they said everything was all right. So we came out.

Mr. Ball. What about the lights?

Mr. Fritz. The lights were almost blinding.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the people in the crowd?

Mr. Fritz. I could see the people but I could hardly tell who they were, because of the lights. I have been wearing glasses this year and with glasses those lights don't help you facing a bright light like that, the lights were glaring.

Mr. Ball. How far ahead of Ruby were you?

Mr. Fritz. Well. I thought they were right behind me almost but I noticed from the picture they were a little further back than I actually thought they were, probably where Mr. Baker is to this gentleman. I believe maybe a little bit farther than that, maybe about——

Mr. Ball. How far behind Oswald were you, how far behind Oswald. Oswald was behind you?

Mr. Fritz. Behind me.

Mr. Ball. How many feet would you say?

Mr. Fritz. In feet I would say probably 8 feet.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever know of Jack Ruby?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I never did know him. I never knew him at all. Some of the officers knew him. But I never knew him.

Mr. Ball. Were there any flashbulbs or were they just steady beams of light?

Mr. Fritz. I didn't see any flashing lights. These were steady blinding lights that I saw. That I couldn't see, you might say.

Mr. Dulles. These were television cameras?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Ball. Did you hear of Warren Reynolds?

Mr. Fritz. Warren Reynolds?

Mr. Ball. Who was shot sometime afterwards?

Mr. Fritz. Used car lot man?

Mr. Ball. Used car lot?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I talked to him. He was shot through the head.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. I didn't talk to him very long because I didn't have to talk to him long or I didn't have to talk to him very long but he told me two or three different stories and I could tell he was a sick man and he had no doubt brain damage from that bullet and he is apt to say anything.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He told me that—he told me two or three stories, one story he told me when they first brought him into me, for me to talk to him, he told me that he saw this Ruby coming down there and he told him—he said he followed him up and saw which way he went.

Mr. Ball. Ruby?

Mr. Fritz. Saw Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, Oswald, and I questioned him further and I asked him, how far, how close was the closest you were ever to him, how far were you from him? He said, well, from that car lot across the street there. Well, of course, if he had been at a car lot across the street it would be difficult to follow him on the sidewalk. It would be quite difficult so I talked to him for just a short time and I didn't bother with him any more.

I already had some history on him because the other bureau, the forgery bureau had been handling him and they had already told me a lot about him. They discounted anything that he told.

Mr. Ball. Did you find out who shot him and why he was shot?

Mr. Fritz. This man on the car lot?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. They think it might have been over a car deal but they are not positive and I don't know that he will ever tell them.

Mr. Ball. Have you ever discovered any connection between the shooting of Warren Reynolds and the killing?

Mr. Fritz. Never.

Mr. Ball. The assassination of the President?

Mr. Fritz. None at all.

Mr. Ball. The killing of Tippit?

Mr. Fritz. No; we found nothing. We checked it.

Mr. Ball. Any connection between Oswald and Warren Reynolds or Ruby and Warren Reynolds?

Mr. Fritz. We found no connection. We had all kinds of rumors, of course, that they were connected, and we didn't find anything.

Mr. Ball. Did you investigate it?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I had some officers investigate it, and the forgery bureau investigated him because they were already working on the shooting case. They handled all the shootings where people are not killed.

Mr. Ball. I see.

Had you originally planned to be in the motorcade, had you been ordered to be?

Mr. Fritz. At first?

Mr. Ball. Yes, sir.

Mr. Fritz. I had been; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then it was changed, what day?

Mr. Fritz. Ten o'clock the night before the parade, I got a call at home telling me that my assignment had been changed and told me to go to the speaker's tent.

Mr. Ball. Who called you?

Mr. Fritz. Chief Stevenson.

Mr. Ball. Do you think that made any difference?

Mr. Fritz. I don't know. I wouldn't want to say because it is like telling about those transfers, where we would have been in that parade we would have been pretty close under that window we might have had a man shot or have good luck or bad luck.

Mr. Dulles. I didn't quite get you where were you to be in the motorcade if you had been?

Mr. Fritz. Right behind the Vice President's car.

Mr. Dulles. Behind the Vice President's car?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Had there been a plan for a car in front of the President's car?

Mr. Fritz. I don't know, I didn't make the arrangements for the parade. That was only—those were the only instructions I had—was that one assignment.

Mr. Ball. Did you—do you feel any resentment toward the Secret Service or the FBI men because they were in your office?

Mr. Fritz. Oh, no, no, because I work with them all the time.

Mr. Ball. You do?

Mr. Fritz. Mr. Bookhout is in my office with the FBI. My books are all on the outside and they check my books as often as I do.

Mr. Ball. Well, do you think you could have done a better job perhaps if there hadn't been some investigators?

Mr. Fritz. I don't know, that would be kind of a bad question.

Mr. Ball. I mean questioning Oswald.

Mr. Fritz. Maybe they would have done better if I hadn't been there.

Mr. Dulles. How was the cooperation, was it pretty good between the Secret Service and the FBI?

Mr. Fritz. We got along fine with the Secret Service and FBI a hundred percent.

Mr. McCloy. Captain Fritz, did you have charge of the attempted shooting of General Walker?

Mr. Fritz. No; that wasn't homicide, it would be handled by Captain Jones, it would have been the other bureau.

Mr. McCloy. Captain Jones. Have we examined Captain Jones?

Mr. Hubert. A deposition has been taken.

Mr. Dulles. You had nothing to do with the investigation of the Walker case?

Mr. Fritz. Not at all. That happened to be Captain Jones and Lieutenant Cunningham.

Mr. Dulles. Did that case come up at all in any of your interrogations of Oswald? Did you ever ask him whether he was involved or anything of that sort?

Mr. Fritz. I don't think that I ever asked him about that. If I did, I don't remember it. I don't remember asking about that, asking him about that at all. We had a little information on it but I didn't want to mix it up in that other case and I didn't want to mix it up.

Mr. McCloy. I would like to go back some distance. When you first went into the building there.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. And as of your knowledge, when did the first broadcast go out of a description of Oswald, according to what information you had on the subject?

Mr. Fritz. I wouldn't have that because I hadn't heard a broadcast of a description when I went into the building. So if one went out it probably was after I went in.

Mr. McCloy. When Mr. Truly told you that one of his men was missing?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; then he gave me a description of him.

Mr. McCloy. And he gave you a description at that time?

Mr. Fritz. Yes; home address.

Mr. McCloy. That was his home address and also a description?

Mr. Fritz. His home address and a description, what he looked like, his age, and so forth.

Mr. McCloy. Now that description, to whom was that description given?

Mr. Fritz. Well, I never did give it any anyone because when I got to the office he was there.

Mr. McCloy. He was there when you got to the office?

Mr. Fritz. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. I understand——

Mr. Fritz. I think I could help you a minute about that description that went out over the radio but I didn't hear it. When I got to the building, some officer there told me, said we think the man who did the shooting out of the window is a tall, white man, that is all I had. That didn't mean much you know because you can't tell five or six floors up whether a man is tall or short.

Mr. McCloy. Did you question the colored men that were on the fifth floor?

Mr. Fritz. I talked to part of them. Most of them were questioned by the other officers, investigating officers I had assigned there; yes, sir. I talked to very few of them. I did do this. I did assign an officer to take affidavits from all of those people.

Mr. McCloy. Were you present at the showup at which Brennan was the witness?

Mr. Fritz. Brennan?

Mr. McCloy. Brennan was the alleged——

Mr. Fritz. Is that the man that the Secret Service brought over there, Mr. Sorrels brought over?

Mr. McCloy. I don't know whether Mr. Sorrels——

Mr. Fritz. I don't think I was present but I will tell you what, I helped Mr. Sorrels find the time that that man—we didn't show that he was shown at all on our records, but Mr. Sorrels called me and said he did show him and he wanted me to give him the time of the showup. I asked him to find out from his officers who were with Mr. Brennan the names of the people that we had there, and he gave me those two Davis sisters, and he said, when he told me that, of course, I could tell what showup it was and then I gave him the time.

Mr. McCloy. But you were not present to the best of your recollection when Brennan was in the showup?

Mr. Fritz. I don't believe I was there, I doubt it.

Mr. McCloy. Did you ever inspect these premises on Neely Street?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I did. With the Secret Service. We went over there and we searched that apartment thoroughly. It was vacant. The man came over that owned it, opened the house for us, we searched it thoroughly and went through the yard and made some pictures in the backyard exactly like that with another man, of course, holding the papers.

Mr. McCloy. Are the pictures in the record?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; we have them in the record, the ones we made over there. I suppose you have them here.

Mr. McCloy. Do we have the pictures?

Mr. Ball. I don't believe we have any pictures that you made.

Mr. Fritz. Of the one we made over in the backyard.

Mr. McCloy. I think it is important we get those because of the charge this picture was doctored. Have a picture of the premises which these pictures were taken.

Mr. Ball. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them.

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; those pictures were made with—we have them, I am sure of that, our men made the pictures. I believe we have them right here. Maybe we didn't bring them, but we have them.

Mr. Ball. Could you send them to us?

Mr. Fritz. Yes; Lieutenant Day may have some with him. His men have them.

Mr. Ball. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them. I have a few questions here. You mentioned that Hosty, the first day he was there you said that he said he knows these people. Did he tell you that he knew Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. Well, I will tell you, he wasn't talking to me really.

Mr. Ball. What did he say to Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. That was the agent—what did Hosty say to Oswald?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. Or what did——

Mr. Ball. Did Hosty say?

Mr. Fritz. I thought you meant what about Shanklin said to Hosty.

Mr. Ball. Did Hosty say to you that he knew Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. I heard Mr. Shanklin tell Mr. Hosty on the telephone. I had Mr. Bookhout pick up the telephone and I had an extension.

Mr. Ball. What did he hear?

Mr. Fritz. He said is Hosty in that investigation, Bookhout said no. He said, "I want him in that investigation right now because he knows those people he has been talking to," and he said some other things that I don't want to repeat, about what to do if he didn't do it right quick. So I didn't tell them that I even knew what Mr. Shanklin said. I walked out there and called them in.

Mr. Ball. Was Oswald handcuffed at all times during the interrogation?

Mr. Fritz. I believe he was; yes, sir, I believe we kept him handcuffed at all times. The first time we brought him in he was handcuffed with his hands behind him and he was uncomfortable and I had the officers change them and put his hands up front.

Mr. Ball. Was he fed any time during that day?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; he was. I don't remember buying him something to eat. I usually do, if they are hard up in jail at the time I buy something to eat but some of the other officers remember me buying him food but the only thing he would drink was I believe some milk and ate a little package of those crackers sandwiches and one of the other officers bought him a cup of coffee and that is all he would either eat or drink, that is all he wanted.

Mr. Ball. Now he talked to his wife and——

Mr. Fritz. And his mother.

Mr. Ball. And his brother, Robert?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I am pretty sure he did.

Mr. Ball. Where did he talk to them?

Mr. Fritz. I believe that would be up in the jail. He didn't want them in my office.

Mr. Ball. Do you have that jail——

Mr. Fritz. Wait just one second. No, sir; that was in the jail.

Mr. Ball. Is the jail wired so that you can listen to conversations?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; it isn't. Sometimes I wish I could hear some of the things they say but we don't.

Mr. Ball. In other words, you don't monitor conversations?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; we let them talk to anyone they want to. If they are allowed to use the telephone, of course, they are allowed free use of it. Sometimes they do a little better than that. Sometimes they place a long distance call and charge it to the city.

Mr. McCloy. When you went in, Captain Fritz, and you saw the site which Oswald is alleged to have fired the shot from——

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Did you see any signs of a lunch there, a chicken there?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I will tell you where that story about the chicken comes from. At the other window above there, where people in days past, you know had eaten their lunches, they left chicken bones and pieces of bread, all kinds of things up and down there. That isn't where he was at all. He was in a different window, so I don't think those things have anything to do with it. Someone wrote a story about it in the papers, and we have got all kinds of bad publicity from it and they wrote in telling us how to check those chicken bones and how to get them from the stomach and everything.

Mr. Dulles. What was Oswald's attitude toward the police and police authority?

Mr. Fritz. You know I didn't have trouble with him. If we would just talk to him quietly like we are talking right now, we talked all right until I asked him a question that meant something, every time I asked him a question that meant something, that would produce evidence he immediately told me he wouldn't tell me about it and he seemed to anticipate what I was going to ask. In fact, he got so good at it one time, I asked him if he had had any training, if he hadn't been questioned before.

Mr. Dulles. Questioned before?

Mr. Fritz. Questioned before, and he said that he had, he said yes, the FBI questioned him when he came back from Russia from a long time and they tried different methods. He said they tried the buddy boy method and thorough method, and let me see some other method he told me and he said, "I understand that."

Mr. Dulles. Did you ask him whether he had had any communist training or indoctrination or anything of that kind?

Mr. Fritz. I asked him some questions about that and I asked him where he was in Russia. He told me he was in Russia, first I believe he told me, first I believe he said in Moscow, and then he said he went to Minsk, Russia, and I asked him what did you do, get some training, go to school? I suspected he had some training in sabotage from the way he talked and acted, and he said "no, I worked in a radio factory." He acted like a person who was prepared for what he was doing.

Mr. Dulles. Have you any views of your own as to motive from your talks with him? Did you get any clues as to possible motive in assassinating the President?

Mr. Fritz. I can only tell you what little I know now. I am sure that we have people in Washington here that can tell far more than I can.

Mr. Dulles. Well, you saw the man and the others didn't see the man.

Mr. Fritz. I got the impression, I got the impression that he was doing it because of his feeling about the Castro revolution, and I think that he felt, he had a lot of feeling about that revolution.

(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Fritz. I think that was the reason. I noticed another thing. I noticed a little before when Walker was shot, he had come out with some statements about Castro and about Cuba and a lot of things and if you will remember the President had some stories a few weeks before his death about Cuba and about Castro and some things, and I wondered if that didn't have some bearing. I have no way of knowing that other than just watching him and talking to him. I think it was his feeling about his belief in being a Marxist, I think he had—he told me he had debated in New Orleans, and that he tried to get converts to this Fair Play for Cuba organization, so I think that was his motive. I think he was doing it because of that.

Mr. Dulles. Did he express any animosity against anyone, the President or the Governor or Walker or anybody?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; he did not. Not with me he didn't.

Mr. Dulles. Not with you?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir. He just, the fact he just didn't talk about them much. He just didn't say hardly anything. When I asked him he didn't say much about them.

Mr. McCloy. You knew Officer Tippit?

Mr. Fritz. I wanted to tell you one thing before I forget. One time I asked him something about whether or not, either I asked him or someone else in there asked him, if he thought he would be better off, if he thought the country would be better off with the President killed and he said, "Well, I think that the Vice President has about the same views as the President has." He says he will probably do about the same thing that President Kennedy will do.

Mr. Dulles. Oswald said that to you?

Mr. Fritz. Either to me or someone, it could be one of the other officers who asked that question while they were talking about him.

Mr. McCloy. Of course, you knew Officer Tippit?

Mr. Fritz. I didn't know him. I didn't know him. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. He didn't work directly under you?

Mr. Fritz. I looked at his record and saw that the chief of the personnel file and I looked at the personnel file and I talked to a number of officers who did know him and they speak very highly.

Mr. Dulles. Have you ever reviewed his record since these events?

Mr. Fritz. I didn't exactly review it but I read a good part of it and the chief read a good part of it to me.

Mr. Dulles. The record is good?

Mr. Fritz. The record is good. It was average, it looked better than a lot of them do. It is all right. It had the same little things that happen to most officers, maybe some little complaint about something minor, nothing of any consequence.

Mr. McCloy. So far as you know he had no connection with Ruby?

Mr. Fritz. I am sure he did not. I think I know what you people have probably heard. We hear all kinds of rumors down our way and I am not trying to volunteer a lot of things here. I know you have a lot of business to do, have you heard something about some connection between Oswald and Ruby and Tippit, and some fourth person. I heard some story, we didn't find any ground for it at all. We didn't find any connection of any kind that would connect them together. I can't even find a connection between Ruby and Oswald and I can't place them in the same building at the same time nor place them in the same building together, YMCA, one of them lived there and one of them was taking some kind of an athletic course there.

Mr. McCloy. But not at the same time?

Mr. Fritz. Well, I can't place them there at the same time; no, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Have you discovered any connection between any of your officers and Ruby?

Mr. Fritz. Well, I think a lot of the officers knew Ruby. I think about two or three officers in my office knew him, and I think practically all of the special service officers who handle the vice and the clubs and the liquor violations, I think nearly all of them knew him and, of course, the officer knew him who had arrested him carrying pistols a time or two, two or three times, uniformed officer mostly. He seemed to be well known. It seems a lot of people in town knew him. But I never was in his place and I didn't know him. Twenty years ago I might have been in his place.

Mr. Ball. Captain Fritz, from being with Oswald for a couple of days what were your impressions about him? Was he afraid, scared?

Mr. Fritz. Was he afraid?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I don't believe he was afraid at all. I think he was a person who had his mind made up what to do and I think he was like a person just dedicated to a cause. And I think he was above average for intelligence.

I know a lot of people call him a nut all the time but he didn't talk like a nut. He knew exactly when to quit talking. He knew the kind of questions. I could talk to him as long as I wanted to if I just talked about a lot of things that didn't amount to anything. But any time I asked him a question that meant something he answered quick.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever hear of a lawyer in Chicago that called up and offered to help Ruby?

Mr. Fritz. Some lawyer from Chicago sent him a wire.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the wire?

Mr. Fritz. I saw the wire; yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you know who the lawyer was?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I don't remember his name. I believe he probably had it delivered to the jail.

Mr. Ball. To Oswald, a lawyer from Chicago offered his services to Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. Yes; Ruby too. But I am talking about the one to Oswald. I don't know that I would even know his name if I heard it.

Mr. Ball. We have some pictures here from the crime laboratory as we have marked Exhibits 712, 713, and 714. The witness has already identified a picture of Oswald. I show you this, Captain, can you tell me which one of these pictures on Exhibit 714 that you showed to Oswald the day when you interrogated him, asked him it that was his picture?

Mr. Fritz. It is the one with the two papers in his hand.

Mr. Ball. The one to the right. Did you ever show him the one to the left?

Mr. Fritz. I don't think so.

Mr. Ball. We offer 713, 712, and 714 as two pictures taken.

Mr. Fritz. These are the pictures I told about a while ago.

Mr. Ball. They were taken by your crime lab?

Mr. Fritz. Our crime lab took these pictures when I went over there with Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. Ball. Where were they taken?

Mr. Fritz. In the backyard of the Neely Street address. If you will note, you will see in this picture, you notice that top right there of this shed. Of course, this picture is taken up closer, but if you step back further you can see about where the height comes to on that shed right there. Not exactly in the same position.

Mr. Ball. I offered these. (Commission Exhibits Nos. 712, 713, and 714 were admitted.)

Mr. Fritz. It shows the gate.

Mr. Ball. Indicating the location of the picture taken—this set will indicate the pictures were all taken at the Neely Street backyard.

Mr. Dulles. You recall the date of these pictures, in April?

Mr. Fritz. I believe they will be dated on the back of them.

Mr. Dulles. April, so the trees would be about the same.

Mr. Ball. When were the pictures taken by your crime lab?

Mr. Fritz. I am not sure but I believe the date will be on the back of the picture. November 29, 1963. Picture made by Officer Brown who works in the crime lab.

Mr. Ball. Captain, I would like to ask you some more questions about your prisoner.

Mr. Fritz. All right, sir.

Mr. Ball. The first day that you had Oswald in custody, did you get a notice from the FBI, any of the FBI officers that there had been a communication from Washington suggesting that you take extra precautions for the safety of Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Ball. Do you recall whether or not on Friday——

The Chairman. What was your answer to that?

Mr. Fritz. I did not, I got no such instructions. In fact, we couldn't—we would have taken the precautions without the notice but we did not get the notice, I never heard of that.

Mr. Ball. Do you recall that on Friday, November 22, Wade asked you or did he or didn't District Attorney Wade ask you to transfer Oswald to the county jail for security?

Mr. Fritz. That would be on the night of the 22d?

Mr. Ball. On the night of the 22d.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; he asked me if I would transfer him that night.

Mr. Ball. What did you tell him?

Mr. Fritz. I told him we didn't want to transfer him yet. We wanted to talk to him some more. We talked a little bit. He didn't actually want him transferred. He just was more or less talking about whether or not we wanted to transfer him.

Mr. Ball. Now on Saturday Decker called you and asked you to transfer him?

Mr. Fritz. On Saturday did he call me and ask me to transfer him?

Mr. Ball. Yes, that would be the 23d.

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Ball. Did Chief Curry tell you that Decker had called or anything of that sort?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; when I was talking to Chief Curry on one of those conversations, I don't think it is the conversation now when he told me about the hours, I think it is another conversation, I told him, I said, "I don't know whether we were going to transfer him or Decker was going to transfer him," and Chief Curry said, "We are going to transfer him, I have talked to Decker, we are going to transfer him."

Mr. Ball. When were the plans for the transfer made?

Mr. Fritz. When were the plans made?

Mr. Ball. Yes; do you know?

Mr. Fritz. I don't know about that. The only thing I know is what I told you about when the chief told me about would he be ready by 10 o'clock that morning, and I told him I thought we could.

Mr. Ball. You didn't make the plans yourself?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. They were made by the chief?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; they were made by the chief.

Mr. Ball. When did the chief first tell you what the plans were?

Mr. Fritz. That was on the 23d. He didn't tell me about all the plans, of course, at that time because I told you when he came up to tell us about that, when he asked when we were ready to go he told me about the armored car, that is the first I had ever heard of that.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever tell any of the press the time that Oswald would be moved?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I was interrogated by a bunch of them as I started to leave the office on the night of the 23d. As we started to the elevator, a group of us from my office, and some of the FBI officers, we started to the elevator some 10 or 20 reporters came up and said the chief said we were going to transfer him at 10 o'clock the next morning and if we were and I didn't talk to them so I don't think I ever said much if anything to them because I know one of them followed me almost to my parking lot, I know, asking me questions about the transfer.

Mr. Ball. At 11:15 when they left your office, do you know whether or not there was any broadcast over your radio as to your movements?

Mr. Fritz. On our radio?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Ball. Or on any radio, were there any radio broadcasters on your floor at that time?

Mr. Fritz. Any of those newsmen?

Mr. Ball. Newsmen?

Mr. Fritz. Oh, yes; they might not have been on the floor but they were all down in the basement. You are talking about the morning of the 24th?

Mr. Ball. On the morning of the 24th when you were moving?

Mr. Fritz. Any number of them downstairs. I don't remember whether there were any upstairs or not. There probably was maybe a few of them because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't a few of them up there, but we didn't leave through that hall and go through the elevator. We went through the mail elevator.

Mr. Ball. On the 22d and 23d, the third floor was full of newspapermen and photographers?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; all the time, completely full.

Mr. Ball. Had they left the third floor on the 24th?

Mr. Fritz. A lot of them had; yes, sir. A lot of them had, and were downstairs in the basement.

Mr. Ball. How about the television cameras?

Mr. Fritz. I noticed—television cameras, they were downstairs too.

Mr. Ball. They weren't up on the third floor?

Mr. Fritz. I don't believe—there could have been one or two of them left up there, I don't think many of them were still up there.

Mr. Ball. Most of them were downstairs?

Mr. Fritz. Most of them were downstairs. I wouldn't say there weren't any up there because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't at least a few of them up there.

Mr. Ball. Now, when you went down the jail elevator and you said you got out and went forward to see if everything was secure. What did you mean by that?

Mr. Fritz. Well, I meant if everything, it was all right for us to go to our car with him. We didn't want to leave the jail office with him unless everything was all right because as long as we were in the jail office we could put him back in the elevator and if everything wasn't all right, I didn't want to come out with him.

Mr. Ball. And you went ahead, didn't you?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; first Lieutenant Swain and then I went out and then the other officers followed me with the prisoner.

Mr. Ball. Was the car there you were going to get in?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Had you reached the car yet?

Mr. Fritz. I was just in the act of reaching for the door to open the back door, I looked at that picture, and it doesn't show the exact distance I was from the car but I couldn't have been any further than reaching distance.

Mr. Ball. When you left, or after Ruby shot Oswald, he was taken upstairs, wasn't he?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; he was. He was first carried into the jail office, you mean Ruby?

Mr. Ball. Ruby, when Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. Oswald was carried into the jail office and put on the floor there. Ruby was brought into the jail office. Now I believe that Ruby was brought into the jail office after Oswald, I believe Oswald was already on the floor or behind there because I know the officers had taken Ruby upstairs went behind me and I saw them pass behind me with him to the jail.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to Ruby?

Mr. Fritz. Did I talk to him; no, sir; I talked to him later.

Mr. McCloy. I wonder if at this time you would want a little recess?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I am comfortable.

Mr. McCloy. I think we kept the chief on a little bit too long this morning.

Mr. Fritz. If it is all right with you.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to Ruby at that time?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. Ball. Later?

Mr. Fritz. I talked to him later, probably an hour later. I guess I have the exact time here if you need it.

Mr. Ball. What did Ruby say to you, do you have the exact time?

Mr. Fritz. Well, he told me, I told him, I, of course, wanted to know something about premeditation because I was thinking about the trial too and I told him I wanted to ask him some questions and he said, well, he first said, "I don't want to talk to you, I want to talk to my lawyers," and he said, I believe he told me too that he had been advised by a lawyer, and I asked him some other question and he said, "Now if you will level with me and you won't make me look like a fool in front of my lawyers I will talk to you."

I didn't ask him one way or the other, but I did ask him some questions and he told me that he shot him, told me that he was all torn up about the Presidential killing, that he felt terribly sorry for Mrs. Kennedy. He didn't want to see her to have to come back to Dallas for a trial, and a lot of other things like that.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him how he got down to the jail?

Mr. Fritz. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Fritz. He told me he came down that ramp from the outside. So I told him, I said, "No, you couldn't have come down that ramp because there would be an officer at the top and an officer at the bottom and you couldn't come down that ramp." He said, "I am not going to talk to you any more, I am not going to get into trouble," and he never talked to me any more about it.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever talk to him again?

Mr. Fritz. I don't think I ever talked to him after that. I talked to him a little while then and I don't believe I ever talked to him after that. I asked him when he first decided to kill Oswald, and he didn't tell me that. He told me something else, talked about something else.

Mr. Ball. What was that time, you said you could give us the time?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I can give you the time. 3:05.

Mr. Ball. What time?

Mr. Fritz. 3:05.

Mr. Ball. 3:05 in the afternoon?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you know that Archer or Dean or Newman had talked to Ruby?

Mr. Fritz. I didn't know that they had talked to him. I knew that some officers had talked to him but I didn't know who they were.

Mr. Ball. Were there any reports given you by any one of these three men, Dean——

Mr. Fritz. They weren't given to me. Those reports were given to the investigative team that the chief setup headed by Captain Jones and some of the inspectors and they gave me a copy. I have copies of it.

Mr. Ball. You have copies of those reports?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Ball. Do you know, did you know prior to the trial of Ruby that either Dean or Archer or Newman, either one, had claimed to have talked to Ruby about his premeditation in the killing of Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. Well, sir, I didn't know, I wouldn't have known that. They never told me about that. I wouldn't have known. I think that maybe the chief had taken some report from Dean, but I didn't see that until, I think I put it in this book a few days ago.

Mr. Ball. Well now, did you have charge of the investigation of the Oswald killing?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You were in charge of that?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then all the reports would come to you?

Mr. Fritz. Come here; yes, sir. With one exception. The reports from all those officers in the security in the basement. You see, I had nothing to do with setting up the security in the basement, that was under the security division and the chief might have given that assignment to, those are in a different book, they are in a report made to this investigative team appointed by the chief. We have their copies, too.

Mr. Ball. Well, but you had charge of the investigation of the homicide?

Mr. Fritz. The homicide but I didn't have charge of the investigation of the basement incident.

Mr. Ball. Well, the reason for my question is that there has been some question raised as to testimony in the Ruby trial of these men, Dean, Archer, and Newman.

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I heard that.

Mr. Ball. And they have testified to certain statements made that they heard from Ruby afterward, and the question is whether or not these men have reported to you that they had heard that.

Mr. Fritz. They didn't report it to me; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Or reported it in writing to their department?

Mr. Fritz. They didn't report it to me, if they reported to anyone I didn't get it. But I understand that Dean had made some kind of special report to the chief but that wasn't to me.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever know a man named Roger Craig, a deputy sheriff?

Mr. Fritz. Roger Craig, I might if I knew which one he was. Do we have it here?

Mr. Ball. He was a witness from whom you took a statement in your office or some of your men.

Mr. Fritz. Some of my officers.

Mr. Ball. He is a deputy sheriff.

Mr. Fritz. One deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was telling me some things that I knew wouldn't help us and I didn't talk to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. His story that he was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true.

Mr. Ball. Roger Craig stated that about 15 minutes after the shooting he saw a man, a white man, leave the Texas State Book Depository Building, run across a lawn, and get into a white Rambler driven by a colored man.

Mr. Fritz. I don't think that is true.

Mr. Ball. I am stating this. You remember the witness now?

Mr. Fritz. I remember the witness; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did that man ever come into your office and talk to you in the presence of Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. In the presence of Oswald?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; I am sure he did not. I believe that man did come to my office in that little hallway, you know outside my office, and I believe I stepped outside the door and talked to him for a minute and I let someone else take an affidavit from him. We should have that affidavit from him if it would help.

Mr. Ball. Now this man states that, has stated, that he came to your office and Oswald was in your office, and you asked him to look at Oswald and tell you whether or not this was the man he saw, and he says that in your presence he identified Oswald as the man that he had seen run across this lawn and get into the white Rambler sedan. Do you remember that?

Mr. Fritz. I think it was taken, I think it was one of my officers, and I think if he saw him he looked through that glass and saw him from the outside because I am sure of one thing that I didn't bring him in the office with Oswald.

Mr. Ball. You are sure you didn't?

Mr. Fritz. I am sure of that. I feel positive of that. I would remember that I am sure.

Mr. Ball. He also says that in that office——

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. After he had said, "That is the man," that Oswald got up from his chair and slammed his hand on the table and said, "Now everybody will know who I am." Did that ever occur in your presence?

Mr. Fritz. If it did I never saw anything like that; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. That didn't occur?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir; it didn't. That man is not telling a true story if that is what he said. Do you have any—could I ask a question, is it all right if I ask a question?

Mr. McCloy. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Ball. Go ahead.

Mr. Fritz. I was going to ask if we had any affidavits from any of our officers that would back that up? If they did I never heard of it.

Mr. Ball. If you are here tomorrow.

Mr. Fritz. It is something I don't know anything about.

Mr. Ball. If you are here tomorrow I would like to show you the deposition of the man for you to read it.

Mr. Fritz. I am sure I would know that. The only time I saw the man hit the desk was when Mr. Hosty talked to him and he really got upset about that.

Mr. Dulles. Is that in the testimony, have you testified about that?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. That shows his agitation over the alleged——

Mr. Fritz. Questioning.

Mr. McCloy. Questioning of his wife.

Mr. Fritz. That is right.

Mr. Ball. In the light of your experience in this case, do you think you should alter your regulations with the press, have a little more discipline when the press are around?

Mr. Fritz. We can with the local press. We can't do much with those people that we don't know from those foreign countries, and from distant States, they don't ask us. They just write what they hear of and we read it.

Mr. Ball. No; but I mean in the physical control of your plant there?

Mr. Fritz. There at city hall?

Mr. Ball. Do you think you should alter your policy?

Mr. Fritz. We think we can control it normally, because those officers, those people from the press there wouldn't come in and start taking pictures without permission. They wouldn't do that without asking, and then usually I ask a prisoner because some prisoners don't want their pictures taken and sometimes they do, if they want it taken why it is all right. Sometimes we don't let them take them at all, depending on circumstances.

Mr. Ball. Do you permit television interrogation of your prisoners in jail?

Mr. Fritz. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Or in the——

Mr. Fritz. In the jail I don't have charge of the jail but I am sure they don't because I haven't heard of that. We don't have it in the office either.

Mr. McCloy. But——

Mr. Fritz. I don't think it is a good idea at all because I don't know what that man might say.

Mr. Ball. I agree.

Mr. McCloy. You would have jurisdiction to keep out foreign correspondents if you wanted to?

Mr. Fritz. Keep them out of the office; yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Keep them out of the building?

Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have charge of the building but I can keep them out of my office, up to that door, I can have enough officers I can take care of that fine. Out in that building, that is more or less a job for the uniform division.

Mr. Dulles. A job for the uniform division, the police?

Mr. Fritz. A job for the uniform division, they can take charge of it and they have uniforms.

Mr. Dulles. Who establishes the policy?

Mr. Fritz. The chief of police establishes the policy. He has assistants, of course.

Mr. McCloy. You have testified that you were really hampered in your investigation, in your interrogation of Oswald by reason of the confusion.

Mr. Fritz. I think so.

Mr. McCloy. By reason of too many people being around, isn't that right?

Mr. Fritz. I think so, but I am not sure that could have been avoided under these circumstances.

Mr. McCloy. Well, couldn't you——

Mr. Fritz. I think that——

Mr. McCloy. Couldn't you have demanded that your office be cleared so that you could have a quiet investigation?

Mr. Fritz. I could hardly tell the Secret Service and the FBI or any other Federal agency—I had the outer office had Texas Rangers out there, several of them, and you could understand why they would be in there because the Governor had been shot and they work directly for the Governor out of Austin, so you could hardly tell people like that that you don't want them to help.

Now, if this were just an average case, just an average hijacking case we have, we could easily, we could handle it with all ease but where the President of the United States is killed it would be hard to tell the Secret Service and the FBI that they couldn't come in.

Mr. McCloy. But you could have told the newspaper people, the media people that they couldn't come in.

Mr. Fritz. I didn't let them come in my office or in my part of the office.

Mr. McCloy. They never were in your office when you were examining Oswald?

Mr. Fritz. Never. I think one of them got inside of the outer office but someone immediately put him out.

Mr. Dulles. What is the jurisdiction of the city manager as compared to the chief of police, does he have authority over the chief of police?

Mr. Fritz. The city manager is our big boss, he is over all of us. He is over the chief of police and he operates the city. He is responsible only to the mayor and city council. And I think that they give him a pretty free hand.

We have got a city manager and he tells, he sets the policies, of course, maybe I made a mistake when I told you that the chief of police sets the policies of our police department, but the city manager would set the policies for the city as a whole.

Mr. Ball. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCloy. Do you have anything else that you think that is on your mind that might help us in getting at the rockbottom of either the Oswald murder or the President's murder?

Mr. Fritz. I believe that you people know about everything that we know. We have tried to get everything in this book. We have tried not to withhold anything, and I will tell you something about this case that I told some people in the beginning.

I don't know of anything about this case that we can't tell all about, the truth about it from start to finish now. I think the truth fits it better than anything we can do to it. I hope I have gotten this story to you correctly. I hope I haven't made some mistakes in some of my testimony about time and the dates and things because if I have——

Mr. McCloy. Are there any further leads that you would like to follow up or do you feel that the case is from your point of view closed in terms of—

Mr. Fritz. We won't ever close it. We never close any murder case and we won't ever close it. I will tell you what, if anything came up about this case that we thought we could do to help on it, and it came up 10 years from now we would work on it. We would work on it regardless of what time it came up. I do think this, that there have been a lot of things about this case that we won't be able to handle. If we get any information about anything that involves foreign relations we will pass that on to the people who know what to do with it. We won't try to handle anything like that because we might do a very wrong thing. We would give that to either the FBI or the Secret Service, depending on the type of information it was, and they would pass it on to wherever they wanted to.

Mr. McCloy. Are there any pending leads in this case that you feel that you would like to follow up beyond?

Mr. Fritz. Right now?

Mr. McCloy. Right now.

Mr. Fritz. I don't believe we have one. Do you think of any lead to follow up? I can't think of one. If I thought of one we would sure start on it. But I don't think we have.

Mr. Ball. There is one problem here in your records that we asked about. Where was Oswald between 12:35 a.m., and 1:10 a.m., on Saturday, November 23, that is right after midnight?

Mr. Fritz. Right after midnight.

Mr. Ball. The jailer's records show he was checked out.

Mr. Fritz. I think I know where he was right after midnight. I think he went to the identification bureau to be fingerprinted and have his picture made.

Mr. Ball. You know. You can probably advise him and he can tell us. What is it?

Mr. Fritz. I think that, if it is the time that I am thinking about, if it is the time that after he was, after he had his arraignment, I think from what we found out since then that he went there for picture and fingerprints.

Mr. Ball. I have no further questions.

Mr. Fritz. Maybe you should ask Lieutenant Baker here something that I don't know anything about, that he knows, that might help to clarify that question you asked me just then. I thought he went for the picture, but tell him.