TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY (continued 2)

Mr. Curry. I would have to look at the assignment sheet to determine that, sir.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask at this point, unless I may be interfering with your examination, but was it usual for the representatives of the news media to attend showups in the police headquarters apart from this incident?

Mr. Curry. It was not unusual. This was not setting a precedent.

Mr. McCloy. It was not unusual.

Representative Ford. In such a showup where they are present, are they shielded from the person brought in for identification?

Mr. Curry. Are they shielded from——

Representative Ford. From the person who is brought up for identification?

Mr. Curry. Ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. This is for the purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to identify.

For this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not see out, but the people can see in. It is much like a one-way glass.

Representative Ford. That was used in this case?

Mr. Curry. No; this was not used. We just brought him in front of it.

Representative Ford. Any particular reason why he was put in front of it?

Mr. Curry. They asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. And as I repeated, when this was brought up, I asked Mr. Wade, the district attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "No; I don't see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this.

Representative Ford. Who was in charge of the actual showup operation?

Mr. Curry. The jail personnel would have brought him down from downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him.

Representative Ford. Who handled the actual process of identification or attempted identification by various witnesses?

Mr. Curry. Usually Captain Fritz or some of his homicide detectives are present. I know when they were having a showup for a little lady, I don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of the officer, I just—I wasn't there during the entire showup but I was present part of the showup and Captain Fritz was asking her to observe these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the officer and she didn't identify Oswald at that time.

Representative Ford. Did you say the actual process that was—that took place in these several showups was similar to or different from the showups in other cases?

Mr. Curry. The only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we immediately removed him and took him back upstairs.

Representative Ford. You mentioned earlier there had been some allegations to the effect that Oswald had been badly treated.

Mr. Curry. There was—I didn't hear this myself but someone told me, I don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, I understood this was broadcast over the radio and TV.

Representative Ford. Did you investigate that rumor?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. What did you find out?

Mr. Curry. I found he had not been mistreated.

Representative Ford. You checked with all the police personnel who had anything to do with it?

Mr. Curry. Everyone I knew about and the only marks on him was, that I could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he apparently received a couple of marks on his face.

But he didn't complain to me about it. I think he—one of the times he was coming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with his eye and he said, "A cop hit me," I believe, or "A policeman hit me."

Representative Ford. Did you ask Oswald whether he had been mistreated?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe I did, sir.

Representative Ford. But you talked to Oswald on one or more occasions?

Mr. Curry. I don't know that I ever asked him any questions at all. I was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. Fritz, I think did more talking to him than anybody else.

Representative Ford. But not in your presence did he object to any treatment he received from the Dallas police force?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I would like to say for the record that we are very strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way, disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently, but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is.

Mr. Rankin. Chief, you have described a showup, and you have also described the general practice. You have also described showups in regard to Oswald and you said there were several of them.

Mr. Curry. When I said several, to the best of my knowledge there were perhaps three altogether.

Mr. Rankin. Yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used was not for the purpose of identification, is that right?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and said, "We saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was present, were with the Presidential party and there is a possibility that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene.

Mr. Rankin. So the principal reason was to allow the news media?

Mr. Curry. The principal reason was at their request that they be allowed to see the prisoner.

Mr. Rankin. And he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. Rankin. And whatever identification there would be would be under the hope that they might have seen him?

Mr. Curry. They might have seen him because a great number of the news media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area.

Mr. Rankin. And that is the particular showup when you learned later Jack Ruby was supposed to have been present?

Mr. Curry. I was told that he was present. That someone had seen him back in this room. He easily could have been there as far as I was concerned because I wouldn't have known him from anyone else.

Mr. Rankin. At the other showups, were witnesses there to try to identify Oswald?

Mr. Curry. Yes, there were.

Mr. Rankin. How were those handled, do you know?

Mr. Curry. Exactly the same manner except that he was brought in behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other prisoners.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who was there to try to identify him?

Mr. Curry. Only on one occasion. This was a little lady that was a waitress.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Markham?

Mr. Curry. I believe her name was Mrs. Markham.

Mr. Rankin. Do you believe whether she was able to identify him?

Mr. Curry. Yes, I heard her tell Captain Fritz that was the man she saw shoot the officer.

Mr. Rankin. And that was Officer Tippit?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. What kind of a reputation did Officer Tippit have with the police force?

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question before that. Were you present when any members of Oswald's family, his wife, his mother, saw him or talked with him?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know whether any of your officers were?

Mr. Curry. I understood they were brought to the third floor of the city hall and were placed in a room, and that if any of them were present it probably would have been Captain Fritz.

Mr. Dulles. He would know about it?

Mr. Curry. I believe he would, yes.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us what Officer Tippit's reputation was with your police force?

Mr. Curry. He had a reputation of being a very fine, dedicated officer.

Mr. Rankin. How long had he been with you?

Mr. Curry. I believe he came to work for us in 1952, after he had had service in the paratroopers, I believe, and he had made several jumps into Europe. He was raised in a rural community, and he was very well thought of by the people in the community where he grew up. He was a rather quiet, serious minded young man. He seemed to be very devoted to his family, and he was an active church man.

Mr. Rankin. What was his rank?

Mr. Curry. Patrolman. He was not a real aggressive type officer. In fact, he seemed to be just a little bit shy, if you were to meet him, I believe, shy, retiring type, but certainly not afraid of anything. I think in his personnel investigation it showed that during, as he was growing up, sometimes his shyness was mistaken for perhaps fear, but that it only took a time or two for someone to exploit this to find out it wasn't fear. It was merely a quiet, shy-type individual.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any record in the police department of any disciplinary action toward him?

Mr. Curry. The only disciplinary action ever taken was he was given a day off one time because he had missed court on two occasions.

Mr. Dulles. Missed what?

Mr. Curry. Missed court.

Mr. Rankin. He had been unable to testify or something?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; in city court they have to appear 1 day a week. They are notified each week to appear but they are told on one day will be their court day and if any cases coming up it would be that time. And on two occasions he failed to appear. I think one time he forgot it and I think another time he said he was tied up on a radio call or something and didn't notify him and it is just a departmental policy if you miss court twice you are given a day off for it.

Mr. Rankin. Was that the penalty that was imposed?

Mr. Curry. Yes, it was. He took it in very good graces, he didn't feel like he was being mistreated.

Mr. Rankin. That was the only disciplinary action against him?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; there was one other complaint in his file, where he had stopped a lady and given her a ticket and also had given her, he gave her two tickets, one for no operator's license, and after he had issued the tickets she found her driver's license, and she called to him across the street, and said something about she found her license and he told her okay, show it in court, but she thought he was being rather abrupt and discourteous to her, she felt like he should have come back over and taken this ticket for driver's license and destroyed it.

Under our rules and regulations you cannot destroy a ticket; if it is destroyed it has to be accounted in our auditor's office and that was the only complaint in the years on the force.

Mr. Dulles. A rumor reached me that Officer Tippit had been some way involved in some narcotic trouble, I don't know what the foundation of that is. Do you know anything about that at all?

Mr. Curry. Nothing whatsoever; no, sir.

Representative Ford. You mean you know nothing about it or you checked it out and there is no validity?

Mr. Curry. This is the first I ever heard of it that he was involved in any narcotics.

Representative Ford. But your records, so far as you know, would not indicate such?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. McCloy. Did you, so far as you know, did Tippit know Ruby?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe he did. I am sure he didn't. He would not be the type I think that would even have any occasion to know him because some of the officers that we found that did know him, either worked in the area where he had a night club or some of the officers that worked in the vice squad who had occasion to go in and inspect these cases or a few officers we found they went out there for social purposes, outside their regular duty.

Tippit, for a number of years, had been assigned out in Oak Cliff. I don't think he had ever been assigned in an area where Jack Ruby—well Jack Ruby did live in Oak Cliff but I am sure, to the best of my knowledge, Tippit never had any occasion to be around Jack Ruby.

Mr. Dulles. Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned assignment or was he just roving in a particular area?

Mr. Curry. On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is customary policy in the police department if something happens on this district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment does, this is automatic.

Mr. Rankin. Will you explain that further?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right here where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is just automatic patrol policy.

On this particular day, some of the squads in this Oak Cliff area had been ordered over into the Dallas area, this Texas School Book Depository, and some of these other outlying squads then, I think we have this on a radio log, I don't know whether you have this or not, were 78 or 81.

Mr. Ball. Why don't you read it in the record, a definite order for Tippit to come in there.

Mr. Curry. Right here. This would have been at approximately 12:45, I believe. Here is the description came out at about 12:45. The dispatcher put out a description of attention all squads.

Mr. Dulles. What do you mean by description?

Mr. Curry. Of a suspect.

Mr. Dulles. I see, description of Oswald?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What are you reading from, Chief?

Mr. Curry. This is radio log record from the Dallas Police Department, as recorded on November 22.

Mr. Rankin. Is that from Commission Document 728?

Mr. Dulles. I want to correct my question, it was a man seen leaving?

Mr. Curry. It was a description of a suspect.

Mr. Dulles. You didn't know it was Oswald?

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us what the rest of that notation is?

Mr. Curry. Dispatcher put out this description, "attention all squads Elm and Houston, unknown white male person approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10, 160 pounds, reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle. Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a .30-30 rifle, no further description at this time."

This was at 12:45 p.m.

Mr. Rankin. What channel are you talking about?

Mr. Curry. Channel 1.

Mr. Rankin. You had more than one channel?

Mr. Curry. Two channels.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Curry. Someone came in, they didn't identify themselves and came in and said what are they wanted for, and they said signal 19 which is a shooting under our code involving the President.

Representative Ford. Did Tippit's motorcycle have channel 1?

Mr. Curry. He was in a squad car and most of our squad cars have channel 1 and 2, but they stay on channel 1 unless they are instructed to switch over to channel 2.

Mr. Dulles. He did have channel 1?

Mr. Curry. Yes. Now within the minute of broadcasting, a little further on, squads 102 and 233 checked out at Elm and Houston, 81 came in the district squad, that was an Oak Cliff squad. He said "I will be going north from Industrial on Corinth." That means he was leaving the Oak Cliff section coming toward the downtown section of Dallas.

Representative Ford. By he who do you mean?

Mr. Curry. The man assigned to district 81, and I don't have his name but it would be on our records.

Then Tippit was working 78 and he along with district 87, which is further out in Oak Cliff, at about 12:45, between 12:45 and 12:46, the dispatcher sent out this message to him, "87-78 moving into central Oak Cliff area."

Now the central Oak Cliff area would have been the area nearby where this shooting occurred.

Representative Ford. Shooting of Tippit?

Mr. Curry. Shooting of Tippit occurred. I am sure—a little later on here, he says "you are in Oak Cliff area, are you not," and he said "at Lancaster and 8th", that would be just several blocks from where this shooting then occurred.

Mr. McCloy. This is Tippit's reply going in?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. The next sentence also says something, Chief?

Mr. Curry. And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining squads in Oak Cliff that was in service.

Mr. Dulles. What does that mean, scout around the area?

Mr. Curry. Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff.

Mr. McCloy. Did he reply to that?

Mr. Curry. He said "10-4".

Mr. Rankin. What does that mean?

Mr. Curry. It means message received.

Mr. Rankin. Doesn't that mean approval?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. These are transcriptions of communications back and forth?

Mr. Curry. That is recorded on our radio there in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Is there a tape recorder on that?

Mr. Curry. Yes; and it is kept for a permanent record.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any other shooting in this particular area where Officer Tippit was that morning, do you know?

Mr. Curry. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Dulles. Is that 10-4 message the last message you received from Tippit?

Mr. Curry. As far as I know that is the last word we heard from him.

Mr. McCloy. Was this description of the suspect the first description that went out?

Mr. Curry. As far as I know, it is.

Mr. Dulles. That was at 12:45, as I recall.

Mr. Curry. Approximately, yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Rankin. When did you first learn of Officer Tippit's murder?

Mr. Curry. While I was out at Parkland Hospital. That is after we had taken the President there and the Governor, and we were waiting there.

Mr. Rankin. Now, on these showups for Lee Oswald, did you have any special security arrangements about bringing him in among all this crowd of news people?

Mr. Curry. We had some police officers bringing him down. I was there, Captain Fritz went, I don't believe he went inside the door. He went to the door, I believe. There were several officers there, yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was this more than usual?

Mr. Curry. Perhaps so; yes. Ordinarily there would have been maybe a jailer and a jail guard with the prisoner. And there would have been the detective out with the witnesses.

Mr. Rankin. Were you disturbed about the security for Lee Oswald with all this crowd?

Mr. Curry. Not at that time. I really didn't suspect any trouble from the news media. I thought they were there doing a professional job of reporting the news and I had no reason to be concerned about the news media.

Mr. Rankin. Did it concern you that there were so many additional people to try to keep track of as well as——

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do about it?

Mr. Curry. I didn't do anything about it but I was concerned about it. I was thinking that we were going to have to, in the event we have had an incident like this occur again, that we would have to make some different arrangements for the press. We couldn't, when I say the press, the news media, we couldn't have the city hall overrun like this.

Mr. Rankin. Did it occur to you to do anything about stopping it right then?

Mr. Curry. No. I didn't discuss it with any of my staff that we should clear all these people out of here and get them outside the city hall.

Mr. Rankin. You gave no consideration to that kind of approach?

Mr. Curry. Not at the time.

Mr. Rankin. Now after the interrogation of Oswald, did you make some decision about moving him?

Mr. Curry. Not at that particular time. It is customary after we file on a person that he be removed from the city hall.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by file on a person?

Mr. Curry. File a case against him and that is necessary to go to the district attorney's office usually, and in this case the district attorney was there and we filed it at the city hall because the district attorney was with us.

Mr. Rankin. A criminal complaint?

Mr. Curry. A criminal complaint. After we file this complaint it is customary for the prisoner to be transferred from the city to the county jail and to remain in custody until he makes bond or is brought to trial.

Mr. Rankin. That is a regular practice?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. These transfers are usually made by the sheriff's office, sometime during the morning.

Mr. Rankin. By the sheriff's office you mean it is the sheriff's responsibility?

Mr. Curry. Routine transfers are made. It is not a hard and fast custom. Many times we will take the prisoner to the sheriff.

Mr. Rankin. Who decides which way you will do it?

Mr. Curry. It is left up to the bureau commander.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by the bureau commander?

Mr. Curry. That is handling the case.

Mr. Rankin. Who would that be in this case?

Mr. Curry. In this case it would have been Captain Fritz.

Mr. Rankin. And he decides then in all cases of this type whether or not the police will take him across to the sheriff's jail or the sheriff will come and get him?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; ordinarily it wouldn't even come to my attention how it was handled.

Mr. Rankin. Did it come to your attention this time?

Mr. Curry. It did this time. I had asked, it seemed to me like it was on Saturday after he had been filed on late or early Friday morning, the news media many times had asked me when are you going to transfer him and I said, "I don't know."

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by "early Friday morning?"

Mr. Curry. I mean early Saturday morning. Late Friday night or early Saturday morning.

Representative Ford. Where do you actually do this filing?

Mr. Curry. Ordinarily our detectives would go down to the courthouse which is right near where the President was assassinated and file it in the district attorney's office. However, in this case the district attorney and also his assistant was up at the city hall with us, and we drew up the complaints there at the city hall.

Mr. Rankin. Who do you mean by we?

Mr. Curry. When I say we, I mean the Dallas police officers and the homicide officers working in this case.

Mr. Rankin. I see.

Representative Ford. What evidence did you have at that point?

Mr. Curry. I couldn't tell you all the evidence. I think Captain Fritz can tell you better than I. Captain Fritz just told me on Friday afternoon he said, "We have sufficient evidence to file a case on Oswald for the murder of Tippit." Later on that night, somewhere around midnight, I believe, he told me, he said, "We now have sufficient evidence to file on Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President Kennedy."

He told me he had talked it over with Henry Wade and with the assistant district attorney and they agreed we had enough evidence to file a case, and a decision was made then to file the case, which we did.

Representative Ford. At that time you had the rifle, did you not?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Who made the original identification of the rifle, the kind of rifle that it was?

Mr. Curry. I don't know, sir.

Representative Ford. It was reported that the original identification was a 7.65 Mauser. Are those reports true or untrue?

Mr. Curry. I wouldn't know, sir.

Representative Ford. You don't know?

Mr. Curry. I don't know.

Representative Ford. Do you know when it was finally determined that it was not a 7.65 Mauser?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I don't know that.

Mr. McCloy. As far as I know there was no police report that it was a 7.65 rifle.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Rankin. Chief Curry, do you know of any police records of your police department that showed that this weapon that was purportedly involved in the assassination was a Mauser rifle?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Representative Ford. All of your records show affirmatively it was the Italian rifle?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. That is correct.

Mr. McCloy. While we are waiting for Mr. Rankin to continue his examination, let me ask you this question, Chief.

Did you, prior to the assassination, know or hear of Oswald?

Mr. Curry. Never.

Mr. McCloy. Didn't hear that he had been—there was a defector named Oswald in the city of Dallas?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Never heard of his name?

Mr. Curry. We didn't have it in our files.

Representative Ford. Was there anything in your files that Lee Harvey Oswald had been involved with the Dallas police force?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Representative Ford. No record whatsoever?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any record of his having made a trip to the Soviet Union and returned?

Mr. Curry. Not in our files.

Mr. Dulles. And returned to Texas?

Mr. Curry. We didn't have anything in our files regarding Lee Harvey Oswald.

Senator Cooper. Could I follow up on that, did you have any record of any individuals, persons, in Dallas, or the area, who because of any threats of violence against the President or any Communist background required you to take any special security measures?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; when we have notables, celebrities visiting us, there are some groups in Dallas that are known to be extreme rightwing and extreme leftwing groups. We try to keep track of these people and what their plans are. We have been able to infiltrate most of their organizations.

Senator Cooper. Now prior to the President's visit, did you take any—did the Dallas Police force take any special security measures about any persons that you might suspect of possible violence?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; we kept some people under surveillance or groups under surveillance. We had prior to this visit, we had some information brought to us, I don't know who brought it to us, that there was a man in Sherman or Denison, who said that he is going to see that the President was embarrassed when he came to Dallas.

Senator Cooper. Who was that man, do you know?

Mr. Dulles. We have a Secret Service report, I believe with regard to this case. Here is one from the chief of police of Denton, Tex.

Mr. Curry. Yes; we had some information that the students at North Texas were planning some demonstrations.

Senator Cooper. My question is, did your police force take any special security measures about anyone that you felt might be capable of violence against the President?

Mr. Curry. Not at this particular time, because we had reports from the different groups, and we had information from inside these groups that they were not planning to do anything on the day the President was there. We knew that General Walker was out of the city, and we knew that his group that sometimes put on demonstrations.

Senator Cooper. When you say planning, you are not limiting it to any violence, but you are talking about any possible demonstrations?

Mr. Curry. Yes; demonstrations.

Senator Cooper. I want to come back to that point later, but I want to ask this, outside of what you had in your police files, your records, did you know yourself, or did you know whether anyone in authority in the police force or anyone in the police force, to your knowledge, had any knowledge of the presence of Oswald in Dallas?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I have asked my criminal intelligence section, which would have been the persons who had knowledge of this.

Senator Cooper. Had anyone informed you that he was working in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Had he ever tangled with the Dallas Police in any respect of which there is any record?

Mr. Curry. We have no record at all of him.

Representative Ford. Did the Secret Service people inquire of you as to your knowledge of these various groups that you had infiltrated?

Mr. Curry. I don't remember them specifically asking me what were these groups planning to do.

Representative Ford. Did you volunteer any information on it?

Mr. Curry. I think perhaps we told them what we had done. They were aware of the fact that we did know the plans of the various organizations, and I know we sent Lieutenant Revill and a couple of his men up to Denison, or Denton, to talk to a man that had purportedly said they were going to embarrass the President and had made some remarks about it and after we talked with him he said, "I won't even be in Dallas. I was just popping off. I will assure you I am not even going to be down there. I don't want any part of it."

Then some of the study group in North Texas, we had an informant in this group, and they had decided they would be in Dallas with some placards to express opinions about the President or some of his views. Some of these people were arrested after the shooting because we were afraid that the people were going to harm them. They were down around the Trade Mart with some placards.

Senator Cooper. I have a couple of more questions.

Do you remember the full page advertisement that was in the Dallas paper?

Mr. Curry. I saw it; yes.

Senator Cooper. Directed against the President of the United States?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Senator Cooper. What date did you give that statement in making any kind of preparations for his visit?

Mr. Curry. In the first place, I didn't think it was very appropriate, it makes us apprehensive, a little more apprehensive of the security of the President, but we were doing everything that I knew we could do to protect him. I will never forget that as we turned to go down toward that underpass the remark was made, "We have almost got it made," and I was very relieved that we had brought him through this downtown area, and were fixing to get on this expressway where we could take him out to the Trade Mart where we had a tremendous amount of security set up for him.

Senator Cooper. Since the assassination, have you had any actual factors or any evidence or information of any kind which would indicate that any person other than Oswald was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Dulles. Was any investigation made of, I believe it was Weissman, or somebody by that name, who inserted this advertisement to which Senator Cooper referred, was any particular investigation made?

Mr. Curry. Not any investigation by us.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. McCloy. I have one question.

Did you since the assassination or before have any information or any credible information which would indicate that there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; we were not able to establish any connection between them.

Mr. McCloy. You made a thorough investigation of that?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; we made every attempt to prove or disprove an association between them, and we were not able to connect the two.

Mr. McCloy. Do you intend to ask the chief about the General Walker episode?

Mr. Rankin. Yes; and also about the Ruby episode.

Mr. McCloy. I think that is all I have at the moment.

Mr. Rankin. Chief, I put in front of you there as Exhibit 705, now marked as "Exhibit 705," your radio log that you have just been looking at and referred to, is that right?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Will you turn to the page there where you find the first broadcast of the description of the suspect of the assassination of the President? Is that on your page 6 or thereabouts?

Mr. Curry. The pages—yes, it is page 6, channel 1.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell what time of the day that is recorded as having been made?

Mr. Curry. This shows at the end the broadcast to be 12:45 p.m. It would be on November 22d.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer Exhibit 705 being this radio log which covers a great many matters, but in light of the importance of the time and the description and all, I think the entire log should go in and then we can refer to different items in it.

Mr. Dulles. It will be admitted as Commission's Exhibit No. 705.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 705, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, will you read to the Commission a description that was given at that time of the suspect of the assassination?

Mr. Curry. The broadcast reads as follows: "Attention all squads. Attention all squads. At Elm and Houston, reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. Reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle.

"Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male, 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, 165 pounds, armed with what is thought to be a .30-.30 rifle. No further description or information at this time. KKB there 64 Dallas, and the time given as 12:45 p.m."

Mr. Rankin. You have described Officer Tippit's number?

Mr. Curry. District 78.

Mr. Rankin. And that is recorded along the left-hand side when there is any message either from him or to him, is that right?

Mr. Curry. That is correct.

Mr. Rankin. Do you find there a message directed to him about moving to the central Oak Cliff area?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. And what time is that message recorded?

Mr. Curry. Immediately following this dispatch to him to district squads 87 and 78, EBG 78.

Mr. Rankin. What time?

Mr. Curry. The time is given as 12:46.

Mr. Rankin. What does it say?

Mr. Curry. The dispatcher asked him "87 and 78" or instructed him "Move into the central Oak Cliff area."

Mr. Rankin. Did he respond to that?

Mr. Curry. A little later he did.

Mr. Rankin. When?

Mr. Curry. We have—he was asked his location, would be about 1 o'clock.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say what it was?

Mr. Curry. He didn't come back in at that time. At 1:08 p.m. they called him again.

Mr. Rankin. Did he respond?

Mr. Curry. It is at 12:54. The dispatcher said "78" and he responded, he said, "You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?"

Seventy-eight responded and said, "Lancaster and 8," which would be in the central section of Oak Cliff.

The dispatcher said, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in."

And he responded, "10-4," which means message received. And he would follow those instructions.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have an item there of a broadcast of a person who murdered Tippit?

Mr. Curry. We have apparently—a citizen came in on the radio and he said, "Somebody shot a police officer at 404 10th Street." Someone in the background said 78, squad 78, car No. 10. And the citizen said, "You get that?" and the dispatcher said, "78."

And there was no response and the citizen said, "Hello, police operator, did you get that?" Some other unknown voice came in and said, "510 East Jefferson."

Mr. Rankin. What time of the day?

Mr. Curry. This was about 1:15; 1:19 is the next time that shows up on the radio log. The dispatcher at 1:19 said, "The subject is running west on Jefferson from the location."

Citizen came back in on the radio and said, "From out here on 10th street, 500 block, the police officer just shot, I think he is dead." Dispatcher said, "10-4, we have the information."

The citizen using the radio remained off the radio.

Dispatcher to 15, he was the sergeant, said, "Did you receive the information of police officer shot?"

And he said, "10-4, but didn't that citizen say first he was on Jefferson and 10th and then Chesapeake?"

And he said, "Yes."

And he said, "Do they relate?"

And he said, "Yes, at Denver, 19 will be there shortly," that is a sergeant or a lieutenant.

Ninety-one came on and said, "Have a signal 19 involving a police officer at 400 block East 10th. The suspect last seen running west on Jefferson, no description at this time."

The dispatcher came in and said, "The suspect just passed 401 East Jefferson."

Dispatcher then says, "Give us the correct location on it, 85, we have three different locations."

Eighty-five says, "I haven't seen anything on Jefferson yet, 10-4, check, 491 East 10th at Denver."

Dispatcher repeated, "The subject has just passed 401 East Jefferson."

At 1:22 we have a broadcast here that says, "We have a description on the suspect here on Jefferson, last seen on the 300 block on East Jefferson, a white male, 30, about 5 feet 8, black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks, armed with what he states unknown. Repeat the description."

Dispatcher said that to the squad. He says. "Wearing a white jacket believed to be a white shirt and dark slacks. What is his direction of travel on Jefferson?"

He said, "Travel west on Jefferson, last seen in the 401 West Jefferson, correction, it will be East Jefferson."

The dispatcher then said, "Pick up for investigation of aggravated assault on a police officer, a white male approximately 30, 5 feet 8, slender build, has black hair, white jacket, white shirt, dark trousers. Suspect has been seen running west on Jefferson from the 400 block of East Jefferson at 1:24."

Then they asked about the condition of the officer, and there was something about—the dispatcher did receive some information that there was a man pulled in there on West Davis driving a white Pontiac, a 1961 or 1962 station wagon with a prefix PE, saying he had a rifle laying in the street.

We have a citizen following in a car address unknown direction.

The dispatcher said, "Any unit near Gaston 3600 block, this is about a blood bank."

Then 279 comes in and says, "We believe the suspect on shooting this officer out here got his white jacket, believed he dumped it in this parking lot behind the service station at 400 block West, Jefferson across from Dudley House. He had a white jacket we believe this is it."

"You do not have a suspect, is that correct?"

"No, just the jacket lying on the ground."

There is some more conversation about blood going to Parkland.

"What was the description beside the white jacket?"

"White male, 30, 5-8 black hair, slender build, white shirt, white jacket, black trousers, going west on Jefferson from the 300 block."

Squad says, "This is Sergeant Jerry Hill." Says, "I am at 12th and Beckley now, have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets one."

Mr. Rankin. Chief Curry, we were furnished a Commission Document No. 290, dated December 5, 1963, that purported to be a radio log for your department, and it did not have any item in it in regard to instruction to Officer Tippit to go to the Central Oak Cliff area.

Do you know why that would be true?

Mr. Curry. I don't know why it wasn't in that log except that these logs, after they are recorded, they are pretty difficult to try to take everything off of them, channel 1 and channel 2 is in on them and they spent many hours going over these and copying these.

This would be available and I listened to our recording.

Mr. Rankin. That is Exhibit 705 you are talking about?

Mr. Curry. That is right.

Mr. Rankin. So if there is a discrepancy between the two, are you satisfied that Exhibit 705 is correct?

Mr. Curry. Is the correct exhibit; yes.

Mr. Rankin. Commission Document No. 290 does say at the heading that most routine transmissions were left out for reasons of brevity.

Would that be any explanation?

Mr. Curry. Perhaps it could be, yes. Because these would have been routine broadcasts. The fact the squad was moving into this area because this is more or less normal procedure when we have incidents occurring of any magnitude, the squads immediately begin moving in to cover officers of the district.

Mr. Rankin. You were going to tell us about how it came to your attention about the moving of Lee Oswald to the jail from your place on Saturday?

Mr. Curry. To the county jail?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

I asked Captain Fritz a time or two when he wanted to move Oswald, because this is left up to him. Whoever will be handling the case, I mean I don't enter in the transfer of prisoners. I don't ordinarily even know when they are going to be transferred.

Mr. Rankin. Why is that?

Mr. Curry. It is just a routine matter.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us is that involved quite a few times in your operations?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. Usually it is a daily transfer of prisoners, and usually the sheriff's office sends up there and picks them up on routine prisoners.

Mr. Rankin. Are there a number each day?

Mr. Curry. I would say perhaps anywhere from maybe none to 15 a day.

Mr. Rankin. When did you talk to Officer or Captain Fritz about this?

Mr. Curry. I think I talked to him some on Saturday, because the newspaper people or the news media kept asking me when are going to transfer him?

Mr. Rankin. That would be November 23?

Mr. Curry. Yes; and I said this I don't know because that would be left up to the men doing the interrogation. When they felt like they were finished with him and wanted to transfer him or when Sheriff Decker said, "We want the man."

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with his transfer then?

Mr. Curry. Other than to, I called Sheriff Decker on Sunday morning and he said, I told him and I think he had talked to Fritz prior to that time, too, and he told Fritz, he says, "Don't bring him down here until I get some security set up for him."

So, Sunday morning I talked to Sheriff Decker.

Mr. Rankin. Why didn't you do it at night?

Mr. Curry. This is not customary to transfer prisoners at night.

Mr. Rankin. Why?

Mr. Curry. Well, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again the prisoner was his, and when some of my captains, I believe it was perhaps Lieutenant Swain, it is in the record somewhere said something about, "Do you think we ought to move him at night?"

And Captain Fritz was not in favor of moving him at night because he said, "If anything does occur you can't see, anybody can immediately get out of sight, and if anything is going to happen we want to know where we can see and see what is happening."

Mr. Rankin. Were you fearful something might happen?

Mr. Curry. I didn't know. I thought it could happen because of a feeling of a great number of people. But I certainly didn't think anything to happen in city hall. I thought that if anything did happen to him it would probably be en route from the city jail to the county jail.

Mr. Rankin. What precautions did you take?

Mr. Curry. The precautions that were taken, when I came in on Sunday morning, now Captain Fritz, I had talked to him on Saturday night or Saturday evening anyway, and he said, he thought he would be ready to transfer him by 10 o'clock the next morning, that would be Sunday morning.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell that to the media?

Mr. Curry. I told them at some time after that. Several of them asked me when are you going to transfer him, and I said, I don't know.

They said, "Are you going to transfer him tonight," and I said, "No, we are not going to transfer him tonight." I said, "We are tired. We are going home and get some rest."

Something was said about well, we are tired, too. When should we come back, and I think that this is recorded in some of the tape recording, that I told them if you are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning, I don't think that you would miss anything you want to see.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do then about precautions?

Mr. Curry. The next morning when I came in, that would be about 8:30, 8:45, I think, parked in the basement of city hall, I started up to the elevator and I noticed they had moved some cameras into a hallway down in the basement and I told Lieutenant Wiggins who is in the jail office, I said, "These things will have to be moved out of here, and I also told Chief Batchelor, and Chief Stevenson, Assistant Chief Batchelor, and Assistant Chief in Charge of Investigations Stevenson who came down in the basement at the time.

Mr. Rankin. Those were TV cameras?

Mr. Curry. That was in the lobby or in near the lobby of the jail office. I told them they were—would have to move those out of there. This was also in the parking area, there was a ramp come down from Main Street and goes out on Commerce Street, and then there is a parking area east of this.

I told Lieutenant Wiggins who was there, I said, "Now, move these squad cars," there was a transfer car there and a squad car, "move these cars out of this area and if the news media wants down here put them over behind these railings, back over in the basement here."

Then that is all I did at that time. I saw that they were setting up some security. A little while later Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson went downstairs and found Captain Talbert who was the platoon commander, radio platoon commander had some sergeants down there and they were setting up security and were told clean everything out of the basement and not let anybody in here, I think the depositions will show that, not let anybody in except police officers and news media who had proper credentials.

Mr. Rankin. What about the various entrances, was anything done about that?

Mr. Curry. Well, the entrances to the basement, yes, and the entrances from the basement of city hall out into the basement proper where the cars come in.

Mr. Rankin. What was done about that?

Mr. Curry. Every entrance there were guards put on it with instructions not to let anyone come or go except police officers or news people that had proper credentials.

Mr. Rankin. What entrances are there to the basement?

Mr. Curry. This is a Main Street entrance for vehicles, that would be on the north side of the building. There is a Commerce Street exit which would be on the south side of the building, on the west side downstairs there is an entrance from the jail corridor where the public goes to the jail window into the basement of the parking area. Then there are some elevators that come from the municipal building, that come down to the basement level. There are also, there is also an opening that goes from this basement down into a subbasement where the maintenance men have their offices.

(At this point, Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

Mr. Rankin. And each one of those was guarded?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Throughout the time?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. What other precautions were made?

Mr. Curry. There were a great number of police reservists and detectives and uniformed officers, I think there was a total, I believe of about 74 men in this area between the jail office and the immediate area where he would be loaded.

Mr. Rankin. How large an area was that?

Mr. Curry. Well, where he would be brought out of the jail office to put him in this car, would be, I would say, 16 or 20 feet, and then this building, this ramp runs from one street to the other, and the parking area would cover a block wide and perhaps 150 feet deep.

Mr. Rankin. Were there cars in the parking area?

Mr. Curry. Some cars were there. They had been searched out, all of them. All of the vehicles had been searched, and all the, where the airconditioning ducts were, they had all been searched, every place where a person could conceal himself had been searched out.

Mr. Rankin. Was there a plan for an armored car?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. Rankin. What happened about that?

Mr. Curry. After they had gotten the armored car down there, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again this prisoner was his responsibility and I don't want to be in a position of just overriding him, and I was willing to trust his judgment, he had been doing this for, like I say, nearly 40 years, and he said, "Chief, I would prefer not to use that armored car, I don't know who the driver is. It is awkward to handle and if anybody tries to do anything to us, I am afraid we would be surrounded. I would prefer to put him in a police car with some of my men following him, and get in and just take him right down Main Street and slip him into the jail."

So I said, "It will be all right with me if you want to do it that way but let's not say anything about this."

Mr. Rankin. Now the armored car was not a Dallas police car, was it?

Mr. Curry. No; it was not.

Mr. Rankin. It was one you were arranging to get from——

Mr. Curry. I believe his name was Mr. Sherrell, who was the manager of the Armored Motor Service there in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. And they would furnish a driver with it?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What else was done, if anything?

Mr. Curry. We went ahead with our plans and we instructed the officers that would be involved in this transfer they would go east on Commerce Street, north to Elm Street, west on Elm Street to Houston Street, and then back south on Houston to the rear entrance of the county jail.

Mr. Rankin. How many officers would be involved in the transfer?

Mr. Curry. In the actual transfer, I would think perhaps 15 or 18 besides the men that were stationed at the intersections downtown.

Mr. Rankin. How far would it be from your police department to the county jail?

Mr. Curry. I would say 12–15 blocks.

Mr. Rankin. Were there any other precautions you haven't described?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; that is about all I know of, except that Captain Fritz wanted to transfer the prisoner in his car, with some of his detectives. This is not unusual. He has transferred many, many prisoners, especially where there is—it is an unusual case involving more than the ordinary routine crime, so it is not anything unusual to transfer him, for him to transfer prisoners.

But, it was then suggested or arranged that they would put his car in a position behind the armored car that we would bring the prisoner out, put him in his car, and he would have two detectives in the back seat with him, plus one driver and two or three detectives following him immediately and there was supposed to be another car to pick up and go with them or get into a car van with these two.

They would follow the armored motor car and no one would know that he was not in the armored motor car except the reporters downstairs when they saw him come out. They would see he was placed in a car instead of the armored car, and we planned to let the armored car go over the predetermined route, but that Captain Fritz, when he got to Main Street, as you go east on Commerce and turned north to go to Elm Street, that is the second street over, when he got to Main Street they would make a left turn and go right down Main Street to the county jail, and they would turn right on Houston Street and the lead car would pull past the entrance and he would duck in and the gates would be closed and the prisoner would be transferred.

Mr. Rankin. What happened to these TV cameras that you told them to get out of there?

Mr. Curry. They moved them back somewhere. I don't know where they moved them but it was away from there.

Mr. Rankin. Weren't their cameras right there at the time of the shooting?

Mr. Curry. There were some cameras immediately over, TV cameras, I think over where I had told them to place them earlier that morning. I understood when Chief Batchelor went downstairs and I think Captain Jones of the forgery bureau, immediately prior to the transfer, they found there were some reporters and cameramen in the jail office, and Captain Jones, I believe, asked Chief Batchelor if these should not be removed and he was told yes, they should be removed out into the basement. When they were removed out into the basement instead of them being placed outside of the railing—now this is a decision made by Chief Batchelor, I suppose, because he said put them in the driveway up to the north. Now this is from where Ruby came. So apparently this afforded him an opportunity, from our investigation it was determined that he came down this Main Street ramp.

Mr. Rankin. How did you determine that?

Mr. Curry. We interrograted every man that was assigned in the basement. Also every witness who was around there that we could find that knew anything about it.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone see him come in on that ramp?

Mr. Curry. There was a former police officer who told us he saw him go down that ramp, a Negro former police officer.

Mr. Rankin. Who was that?

Mr. Curry. I believe his name was Daniels. I think perhaps you have a statement from him, don't you?

Mr. Rankin. Is he the only one who saw him come in down there?

Mr. Curry. I believe so.

Mr. Rankin. Now with these TV cameras down there how would your ruse work about having the armored car go ahead and Oswald climb into Captain Fritz' car? Wouldn't that all be shown on TV?

Mr. Curry. If it was. We didn't think there would be anybody downtown to be in a position to watching TV that quickly to do anything about it if they wanted to.

Mr. Rankin. You thought about it though?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What happened? Were you down there at the time?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I would have been but I received a call from my mayor and as I was fixing to go downstairs and I wish that I had been downstairs because I don't know that I could have done anything but you always have this feeling if you were there maybe you could have done something.

But I was called to the telephone and while I was talking to the mayor, why I heard some noises from downstairs and I was up on the third floor, and I heard some shouting, and someone came in and told me that Oswald had been shot.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn how the shooting occurred?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us?

Mr. Curry. I was told that someone sprang from the crowd and pushed a gun into his stomach and fired a shot.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who that was?

Mr. Curry. I was told that the man was named Jack Ruby.

Mr. Rankin. What else did you learn about it?

Mr. Curry. Further investigation revealed, and some of my officers who talked to Ruby and talked to his attorney, I believe, were told that he came down that north ramp, and an investigation revealed that one of our officers, who was assigned there. Officer Vaughn, who was assigned to this location just prior to this transfer.

Mr. Rankin. That is out on the street?

Mr. Curry. Main Street side.

Mr. Rankin. At the entrance?

Mr. Curry. At the entrance to the basement ramp. He had been assigned there and had been told not to let anybody come in except newspaper reporters or news media or police officers.

Mr. Rankin. Did you find out what he did?

Mr. Curry. We discovered or found out subsequently that he, just prior to this transfer, that when we found out we were going to transfer him and not use an armored car that Chief Stevenson had told Lieutenant Pierce "to get a couple of sergeants or a sergeant, get somebody and go around and get in front of the armored car and when we tell you to why you lead off and lead this armored car over here and just over the route we have discussed, and take it to the county jail."

Well, Lieutenant Pierce went downstairs and got a car and he got Sergeant Putnam and I don't recall the other sergeant, and because the ramp that ordinarily we would use for exit ramp to Commerce Street, it was blocked with this armored car and another vehicle, he went out in the wrong direction, that is he went north, up to north, he went north on the ramp to Main Street which ordinarily would not be done, but since he could not get out, why he did, and as he approached the ramp, our investigation showed that Officer Vaughn stepped from his assignment in the entrance to this ramp, and the walk is about 10 or 12 feet wide there, stepped across and just more or less assisted the car to get into the Main Street flow of traffic.

Now he wasn't asked to do this by the lieutenant, but he just did it and according to what Ruby told some of my officers, I believe, whether you have it on the record who he told this to, that he came down that north ramp.

Mr. Rankin. At that time?

Mr. Curry. At that time.

Now this would only have been, it couldn't have possibly been over 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting, so apparently he went right down that ramp and he got in behind some of these newspaper reporters or news media and detectives, and as Oswald was brought out he sprang from behind one of my detectives and took about two steps and shoved a gun in Oswald's side and pulled the trigger.

This officer, in talking to him, he made a report, he swears that he didn't see anybody go in there.

Mr. Rankin. By this officer, you mean Vaughn?

Mr. Curry. Officer Vaughn. He did, I asked him myself or asked the investigating officers to see if he wouldn't take a polygraph test concerning this, just to verify his position in it, and he agreed to take the polygraph test and did take the polygraph test and the polygraph test revealed that he was not aware that Ruby came in while he stepped, when he stepped away from the entrance of that door.

Now I am not here to place the blame on anybody because, as I have said previously, as head of the department, I have got to accept the responsibility for what goes on there.

But if Officer Vaughn had properly carried out his assignment, I don't believe that Ruby could have gotten into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. McCloy. Unless he had credentials, media credentials?

Mr. Curry. That is correct.

Mr. McCloy. We haven't verified whether or not he did have anything?

Mr. Curry. We haven't been able to verify that. There were none found on his person.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not any of the police force were involved with Ruby in this shooting?

Mr. Curry. We got reports and interrogated every officer who was there.

Mr. Rankin. What did you find out?

Mr. Curry. We didn't find any officer who knew he was down there or that had in any way assisted him in getting there. No one.

Mr. Rankin. You are satisfied that none of them were involved in trying to have Oswald shot?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; I certainly am.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make inquiry to determine whether there was any evidence that anyone else was involved with Ruby in trying to shoot Oswald?

Mr. Curry. We made every effort we could in our investigation. We were not able to determine any tieup between any other individual and Ruby or Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make any inquiry to determine whether or not anyone else was involved with Oswald in the assassination of the President?

Mr. Curry. We attempted to. Every lead we came upon we followed it out to see whether or not we could make any connection between Ruby, Oswald, or any other group.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discover any evidence that would tend to show that Oswald had any support in the assassination?

Mr. Curry. No; we did not.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discover any evidence that would prove Ruby was involved with any other person in the killing of Oswald?

Mr. Curry. We were not able to determine any connection.

Mr. Dulles. I will just ask one question, if I may, here.

It was Officer Vaughn, I understand, who had the direct responsibility for checking the credentials.

Mr. Curry. Of that door, of that particular door.

Mr. Dulles. That door. Is there any evidence that Officer Vaughn knew of Ruby?

Mr. Curry. I don't believe he did.

Mr. Dulles. Has that been looked into?

Mr. Curry. He was asked that, and if I remember correctly in his deposition he didn't know him.

Mr. Dulles. He testified he didn't know him?

Mr. Curry. I believe so, I am not confident of that, but they have had his deposition here, which I am sure would reveal that.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know——

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCloy. Do you know, chief, anybody on the staff, on your staff, on the police staff, that was particularly close to Ruby?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McCloy. I would want to go back for a little while on one thing.

How did it happen the description was broadcast so quickly after the event? Can you explain the circumstances under which——

Mr. Curry. I am merely giving an opinion here.

Mr. McCloy. Yes.

Mr. Curry. I think the reason it was when they found out at the Texas School Book Depository that this employee when they were checking employees and they found out this employee was missing, that they presumed he must or could have had some connection between the shooting of the President and the fact that he was not present at this time.

Mr. McCloy. Can you describe the mechanics or the machinery by which this did get on to, this material on to the broadcast, that is——

Mr. Ball. Could I go off the record on it?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Curry. No, sir; other than, I am sure that someone put it over a police radio to our dispatcher and he put it then, he broadcast it.

Mr. McCloy. That is someone on the scene would presumably communicate with headquarters?

Mr. Curry. With the dispatcher. He would rebroadcast it to all units.

Mr. McCloy. And he would rebroadcast it to all the units?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. You have given us, I think, an estimate or approximate estimate of the number of officers you thought that knew Ruby, and I believe it was about 25 out of the whole force.

Mr. Curry. This is just—I mean this is not—I couldn't say this was a real accurate number, but I am just presuming from just talking to people in the department. I would say that certainly no more than 50 men knew anything about him at all.

Mr. Dulles. Have you made any effort to find out and run down these men that did know?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. You have?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. And how many have you actually discovered did know Ruby from that investigation?

Mr. Curry. I don't have the exact number, but I am guessing it probably would be 25 or 30 men.

Mr. Dulles. Twenty-five men whom you have interrogated with regard to their association with Ruby?

Mr. Curry. That knew him in some capacity. That knew him in some capacity.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Rankin, do we have depositions on this point?

Mr. Rankin. We have inquired of everyone deposed as to what he knew about Jack Ruby, what acquaintance, any prior connections.

Mr. Dulles. You mean all the police officers who were——

Mr. Rankin. Who were interrogated, but, of course, we didn't cover any 1,200 men.

Mr. Dulles. Did you cover all those that were present that morning?

Mr. Curry. I believe we asked anyone in the police department who knew Ruby to let us know about it. And then I think anyone that knew him, the names were turned over to those people here. We covered all that such an inquiry would reveal but we didn't purport to cover—well, we covered something like a hundred out of 1,200.

We requested by departmental order any police officer who knew Jack Ruby make it known to us, and then he was interrogated about it.

Mr. Rankin. Of those interrogated that would probably include all of those present the day of the shooting of Oswald, the morning of the shooting of Oswald at the time of the transfer?

Mr. Curry. I believe it would.

Mr. Rankin. All that we knew were present at all, and beyond that, too, have been interrogated.

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. When Officer 78, that is Tippit was directed to the Oak Cliff area that was simply because the Oak Cliff area was sort of a center of activity at that point?

Mr. Curry. At that time.

Mr. McCloy. It wasn't—it wasn't because you were trying to or had any idea that the suspect might have been there?

Mr. Curry. Not from the Presidential shooting, but we were sure that the suspect in the Officer Tippit shooting was in the central area.

Mr. McCloy. But Tippit was still alive on the first direction to him to go out there?

Mr. Curry. That was because some of the squad had been moved out of the Oak Cliff into the Dallas area. You see, this is across the river.

Mr. McCloy. What is the Oak Cliff area?

Mr. Rankin. I think that ought to be clarified. Chief Curry, wasn't your testimony that Tippit was in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then he was directed to move to the central Oak Cliff area?

Mr. Curry. That is correct.

Mr. Rankin. Move in closer, and so he was in it, his regular beat, as I understand it, was in the Oak Cliff area, isn't that right?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And is Oak Cliff a suburb or what is it?

Mr. Curry. It is not exactly a suburb, but it is physically separated. It used to be a separate municipality and some years ago——

Mr. Rankin. Where does it lie?

Mr. Curry. It lies west of Dallas proper and across the Trinity River and the only means of going to Oak Cliff, going to and from Oak Cliff is by means of viaduct so there is a physical separation between Oak Cliff and Dallas, and some of the squads had been pulled out of the Oak Cliff area and to come over to the Elm and Houston area to assist in the investigation of this shooting, and it would be normal procedure as squads go out of an area for the squads further out to move in in the event something does happen in this area they would have a squad that wouldn't be so far removed from it.

Mr. Dulles. This direction had nothing to do with any suspicion that you might have had that the assassin might be going into this area?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; none at all.

Mr. Dulles. It was purely a maneuver to cover an area which had been evacuated or been left uncovered because of the assassination and the reassignment of squads?

Mr. Curry. The reassignment of squads, that is right.

Mr. McCloy. Because of the withdrawal of people of the Oak Cliff area into the Houston Street area?

Mr. Curry. That is correct. So we pulled some of the squads further assigned to the area into the most central area to cover anything that might happen so they would be in position to go out or come in.

Mr. McCloy. That does clear it up.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us on the record what was normal procedure that you just spoke about?

Mr. Curry. Normal procedure would be when we have a great number of squads on assignment in an area, in their particular district, as squads go out of service, say they are checking out, to haul prisoners into the jails or they are on calls, it just is automatic they are instructed in school when they go to school if the adjoining squad goes out of service, doesn't stay, say he adjoins you on the east, don't go to the far west side of your district, go to the east side of your district where you could be on the west side of his district, so if something else occurs in his district you would be in a position to answer the call.

Ordinarily it is not necessary for us to, so that squads go to getting out of service, to go and rearrange squads.

In this particular instance, when he asked 81 and 78 if they were in central Oak Cliff they said yes, but they were moving there because this would be a normal thing to do, to move into an area where other squads had gone out of service.

Mr. Rankin. You told us about your efforts to try to determine whether subversive groups or groups that might have an interest in making trouble for a trip of the President were going to try to do anything. Would you tell us what you did about that in more detail?

Mr. Curry. I gave you a copy of this, and I would like to read it for the record, if you would like me to.

Mr. Rankin. We will offer that.

Mr. Curry. All right.

This is a copy of a report submitted to me by Lieutenant Jack Revill, criminal intelligence section of the special service bureau.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit No. 710 and ask you if that isn't a copy of what you are referring to.

Mr. Curry. Yes; it is.

Mr. Rankin. You won't have to read that. Chief, if you will just describe in a general way what was done that you know about and then I will offer that to show what it proves.

Mr. Curry. In essence, this report says prior to the announcement of the President's visit, there were rumors he would visit Dallas and because of these rumors the intelligence section increased its efforts in attempting to get data concerning not only extremists and subversive groups.

Mr. Rankin. How do they do that?

Mr. Curry. They usually have an informant inside the organization. Sometimes it may be one of our own men.

Mr. Rankin. I see.

That was with regard to the persons listed on that Exhibit 710?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of any other efforts besides that?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; these are all that I know of except we did in one instance go to the cities outside of Dallas, towns outside of Dallas to talk to some people that had rumored that they would do something to embarrass the President. These organizations are listed as the Ku Klux Klan, the Indignant White Citizens Council, National States Rights Party, the John Birch Society, Dallas White Citizens Council, Oak Cliff White Citizens Council, General Walker group, American Opinion Forum, Dallas Committee for Full Citizenship, Young Peoples Socialist League, Dallas Civil Liberties Union, Texas White Citizens Council, and Black Muslims.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 709 which you have furnished us this morning, and ask you, can you tell us how you got that exhibit?

Mr. Curry. This exhibit was a report that was submitted to me from Jack Revill, who is a lieutenant, in the criminal intelligence section.

Mr. Rankin. That is the same man who is referred to in Exhibit 710?

Mr. Curry. Yes, it is; their assignment is to keep track of these groups that we have talked about, possible subversive or extremist groups and try to know something about their plans, their movements.

Mr. Rankin. How did you get that information described in Exhibit 709?

Mr. Curry. It was given to me on November 22d at 2:50 p.m., or shortly thereafter, but I mean the information came to him at that time, and he passed it on to me, later that day.

Mr. Rankin. Would you tell us how you secured Exhibit 711?

Mr. Curry. This is a report from Officer V. J. Brian, B-r-i-a-n, who is a detective in the criminal intelligence section, and was present when Lieutenant Revill, when the information submitted was given to Lieutenant Revill.

Mr. Rankin. I would like to offer Exhibits 709, 710, and 711.

Mr. Dulles. They will be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 709, 710, and 711 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I think we should have a recess now until 2 o'clock.

Mr. McCloy. One more question.

Was there any talk that you heard around before the, after the apprehension of Oswald and his time set for his removal from police headquarters to the jail, was there any talk that you heard in the corridors or elsewhere about lynching or possible lynching?

Mr. Curry. No, sir. The only information I had was that the FBI, someone from the FBI passed the information to the city hall during the night that they had had a call that said, I believe the FBI sent this call, that there was a group of 100 who would take that prisoner away from us before he got to the county jail.

Mr. McCloy. But this came from outside the jail?

Mr. Curry. Yes; outside.

Mr. McCloy. You never heard any threats uttered within the jail?

Mr. Curry. No.

Mr. Dulles. Another general question: Have you any comments or anything you would like to say about the cooperation between the Dallas police, the Secret Service, and the FBI during this period immediately following, prior to and immediately following the assassination?

Mr. Curry. No, sir. We have always had the best of cooperation between both of these Federal units, and all other units of the Federal and State government. I feel sure that they thought this information was important to us, they probably would have given it to us. But we certainly have not had any trouble with the FBI or with the Secret Service in any of our past associations.

Mr. Dulles. I was going a little further. I mean, was the cooperation whole-hearted and open and frank as far as you could tell?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; as far as I could tell, it was.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any problem created because of the possible—not conflict of authority, but question as to who had responsibility of particular areas here as between you as chief of police and the Secret Service and the FBI?

Mr. Curry. Prior to the President's visit, no; there was nothing there.

Mr. Dulles. Prior to or subsequent to?

Mr. Curry. Now, subsequent to that, we felt this, that this was a murder that had been committed in the county, city and county of Dallas, and that we had prior, I mean we had jurisdiction over this. The FBI actually had no jurisdiction over it, the Secret Service actually had no jurisdiction over it. But in an effort to cooperate with these agencies we went all out to do whatever they wanted us to do that we could do to let them observe what was taking place, but actually we knew that this was a case that happened in Dallas, Tex., and would have to be tried in Dallas, Tex., and it was our responsibility to gather the evidence and present the evidence.

We kept getting calls from the FBI. They wanted this evidence up in Washington, in the laboratory, and there was some discussion, Fritz told me, he says, "Well, I need the evidence here, I need to get some people to try to identify the gun, to try to identify this pistol and these things, and if it is in Washington how can I do it?"

But we finally, the night, about midnight of Friday night, we agreed to let the FBI have all the evidence and they said they would bring it to their laboratory and they would have an agent stand by and when they were finished with it to return it to us.

Mr. Dulles. An agent of the police force, you mean?

Mr. Curry. An agent of the FBI.

Mr. Dulles. FBI?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. There was no agent of the Dallas police that went to Washington with the evidence?

Mr. Curry. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Rankin. Did that work out all right so far?

Mr. Curry. Well, not exactly, because they were to give us pictures of everything that was brought to Washington, and Fritz tells me that some of these little items that it was very poor reproduction of some of the items on microfilm.

Subsequently they photographed these things in Washington and sent us copies, some 400, I think, 400 copies of different items. So far as I know, we have never received any of that evidence back. It is still in Washington, I guess.

Perhaps the Commission has it.

Mr. Rankin. Yes; the Commission is still working with it.

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. But apparently the FBI tried to carry out their agreement with you, didn't they?

Mr. Curry. Yes; they did.

Mr. Rankin. And it is a question of whether or not their reproductions were as good as you would like to have?

Mr. Curry. There were made, some of them, in the office down in Dallas, they were in a tremendous hurry to get all of these items to the laboratory here in Washington, and our only concern was this, that if this case is tried in Dallas, we need the evidence to be presented here in a court in Dallas and we were a little bit apprehensive about it if it gets to Washington will it be available to us when we need it. If we need somebody to identify, attempt to identify the gun or other items will it be here for them to see?

And that was our only concern.

We got several calls insisting we send this, and nobody would tell me exactly who it was that was insisting, "just say I got a call from Washington, and they wanted this evidence up there," insinuated it was someone in high authority that was requesting this, and we finally agreed as a matter of trying to cooperate with them, actually.

Mr. Dulles. Have you any more questions?

Mr. McCloy. Not at this stage.

Mr. Rankin. Shall we convene at 2?

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Murray, do you have any?

Mr. Murray. No, thank you.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)