Tuesday, February 11, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED (continued 2)

Mrs. Oswald. The point I am trying to bring there is Lee has always been an American citizen—according to all of my papers from the State Department.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. And they would say that about anyone—all right, I will grant you that. You are probably right.

Mr. Rankin. So that doesn't prove he is an agent, that I can see.

Now, how do you feel it shows he was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. Because he has the sanction of the American Embassy all through this affair.

Mr. Rankin. They would give that to any of us.

Mrs. Oswald. All right—so you are telling me that. But this man is married to a Russian girl, and does come back within a short time, and could have come back sooner. It was the lack of money. And that is another thing.

The State Department repeatedly kept writing me, and I have the letters, for the money. I have copies of my letters also. I could not raise the money. I said I had a '54 Buick car, and all I could get a loan on was $250. They wrote back and said could you ask some friends, or do you have any relatives—800 and some odd dollars they needed. And I went to 12 very prominent people in Vernon, Tex.—one who is a very respected citizen that they recommended me to go, who has a citizen award. And I felt very confident maybe he would help me. I told him that my son, who was a very young man, who was an American citizen, is trying to get back to the United States, but there is lack of money, and if he knew of any way possible he could help me.

He said "You mean he is a defector?" I said, "Possibly so. The paper has said he was a defector." And he said, "Well, I am sorry, Mrs. Oswald, but these boys that are in the service and defect, I don't have any use for."

And I said, "Do you go to church, sir?" He said, "Yes, I do." And I said, "Probably you go to church to put your hat on. Because here is a boy. Let's say he has made a mistake. He has gone to Russia. But let's say he realizes now he has made a mistake, and he wants to come back. Are you telling me you won't help him?"

"That is what I am telling you, Mrs. Oswald. I don't have any use for anybody." Which Senator Tower said that he would not help Lee—made it public. These are nice people saying this. I say the ones who are down and out are the ones that need the help. This boy was a young boy. Let's say he is not an agent. Let's say he defected to Russia. Yet he wants to come back. He deserved a helping hand. I went to 12 people. I did not beg. But I presented my case. And not a one offered to help.

Mr. Rankin. Didn't you understand that the State Department had to try to find out if they could—or you or your son could get the money from other sources before they could advance the money?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, I understand that. I am trying to tell you that I tried awfully hard, but with no success.

Mr. Rankin. So they were just trying to do their duty in that regard, were they not?

Mrs. Oswald. It could be, yes. It could be.

Mr. Rankin. You don't think that makes him an agent, just because they asked you——

Mrs. Oswald. I think—well, as you say, they would probably help anyone. And then again, because he is married to a Russian girl, and because all these documents and everything are handled through the U.S. Embassy. And because of my trip to Washington—which was red carpet treatment. Let's say, gentlemen, if a woman gets on the phone at 9 o'clock and has an appointment at 11 o'clock with three big men, that is wonderful treatment.

Now, they probably would do that to anybody. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. They might have done that——

Mrs. Oswald. I haven't been that fortunate before.

Mr. Rankin. Well, that shouldn't be held against them that they treated you nicely.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I have told you, Mr. Rankin, they were most gracious to me. The Administration was most gracious to me.

Mr. Rankin. I don't see why you should think that because they treated you nicely, that was any sign he was an agent.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, maybe you don't see why. But this is my son. And this is the way I think, because I happen to know all of the other things that you don't know—the life and everything. I happen to think this. And this is my privilege to think this way. And I can almost back it up with these things.

This is a stranger to you folks. But this is a boy I have known from a child.

Mr. Rankin. How much money do you think, he received for being an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. That I do not know.

Mr. Rankin. You have no idea?

Mrs. Oswald. But I do know this, and I have stated this. I have approximately 900 and some odd dollars. And I lost my job. That can be proven. I was a nurse on the 3 to 11 shift, working in a rest home, for a very wealthy woman. And it would have been at least a year, a year and a half case. She is not that bad off. She is just an invalid. She is going to live quite a while.

When I returned home from the Six Flags on Thanksgiving Day, the Deputy Sheriff at Fort Worth, Tex. went to get my pay. And the nurse, the 7 to 3:30 o'clock nurse—I went 3 to 11—and my patient cried and said that they were awfully sorry, but they could not have me back on the case. That the woman at the rest home refused to have me.

Now, I was not working for the rest home. I was doing private duty. But I understand that this is her place of business, and my presence there might have been—hurt her money part. But this is our Christian way of life. The boy was accused of killing the President, with no proof. And then the mother loses her job.

Now, that is my position. You asked me the question. But Marina has $35,000 publicly. What she has, I do not know.

Now, gentlemen, $35,000 is a lot of money in donation dribs and drabs—is a very large sum of money. I question where does that money come from. Yes, some of it could be coming from Lee's back pay. And she might have more than that. That was the amount made public—$35,000. And here is a mother without a job. And everybody knows I have no money. And my contributions are 900 and some odd dollars.

Mr. Rankin. Now, when you say that money that Marina has might come from your son's back pay, what do you base that on? Just speculation?

Mrs. Oswald. I am basing all of this on speculation. Sir, if I had proof, I would not be taking my energy and my emotional capacity to bring all this out—if I had proof he was an agent.

Mr. Rankin. When they asked you to contribute some money to help bring him home from Russia, did it occur to you that if he is an agent the government could just pay his way?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. But they don't want the public to know he is an agent. They want me to have all of this. They don't want the public to know. I am going around to people—you brought up a very good point. I am going around trying to get money for this boy to come home, so the public knows. Sure, they could have given him the money to come home.

Mr. Rankin. Are you trying to get money now? I don't understand what you mean by that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think, Mr. Rankin, you asked me the question that if he was an agent, that the Government would have given him the money to come home without any trouble. I say just the opposite. That it was a very good point. If he was an agent, it would make it hard for him to get the money to come home.

Remember, I am under the impression he is coming home with this Russian girl in order to continue his work. So he cannot be given the money immediately to come home, because his mother might tell the story to someone. Lee was almost a year coming home for lack of money. So then they have an excuse to loan him the money.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever learn that he was getting money from the Red Cross in addition to his pay—that is the Russian or Soviet Red Cross, when he was over there?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know what he did with that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know anything about that. The Red Cross from here?

Mr. Rankin. The Soviet Red Cross.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I know nothing about that.

Mr. Rankin. You didn't know he was supposed to have gotten an amount equal to the pay he received from his job. He got that from the Red Cross.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't follow you. I do not know. I don't understand.

Mr. Rankin. He got so much a month from his job in the electronics factory. You understood that.

Mrs. Oswald. In Russia?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. He was not in an electronics factory. I thought he was working in a radio factory. All right, fine.

Mr. Rankin. And then he got an equal amount, we understand, from the Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Did you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. Now, explain to me—when you say the Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Is that our American Red Cross in the Soviet Union, or this is part of the Russian Red Cross?

Mr. Rankin. This is part of the Russian Red Cross.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know that.

Mr. Rankin. It is not any part of the American Red Cross.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I do not know that.

Mr. Rankin. Their Red Cross is somewhat different than ours, I understand, because the Government has so much to do with activity there that the Red Cross is closely associated with the Government itself, while in this country, as you know, it is generally supported by the public.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I did not know that.

Now, one other thing pertaining to this. When Marina and Lee returned from Russia, and they were at my daughter-in-law's home, Robert's home, and I came in from the job in the country to see them, I said—up until this time, gentlemen, I thought Russians were peasant-looking people, like the public. And I said, "Lee, she doesn't look Russian at all. She looks American." He said, "Of course, mother, that is why I married her, is because she looks American." In front of my daughter-in-law and Robert. He bragged that she looked like an American girl. And there is all little things of that sort.

As I say, I cannot remember everything in my life, because I am going—this is way back—in a few hours time, Mr. Rankin. But there is many, many things that come up.

Mr. Rankin. How does that show that he was an agent at that time. I don't understand that.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't either. But I am telling you the expressions. He is making a point. And what I was going to make a point—Lee loved his work, and Lee loved the Marines. Lee loved the Marines, Mr. Rankin. Even coming back—he was a military man. And that has also been stated in the paper, that he had a military manner about him. I think District Attorney Wade remarked something of that order. People have noticed that.

Mr. Rankin. What made you think he loved the Marines? Was there something he did when he came back?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He loved the Marines because his brother was a Marine, for one thing. And John Edward—that is his career—14 years. My brother was in the Navy. His father was a veteran. We are a servicemen family. And I know Lee loved the Marines. I told you how he read the manual before he left. And on leaves, coming home, Lee would brag. He even said when he came home from Japan, "mother, my stay in Japan, just the trip alone would have cost about $2,000."

Now, Lee, I know also, was in the Air Force of the Marines, and he went to Biloxi, Miss., for schooling. Lee has had quite a bit of schooling. And Lee spoke Russian equivalent to 1 year when he defected to Russia. I have that on his application from the Albert Schweitzer College. And Lee spoke and wrote Russian fluently when he went to Russia. So Lee learns Russian in the Marines.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever talk about reenlisting into the Marines after he returned?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, when Lee returned he was with me 3 days, and then, of course, he went over to visit Robert's house. So actually we didn't talk. I was trying to find a home. And I didn't think he would go. I was hoping that Lee would not go on the ship and work. I was hoping he would stay home. We were interrupted before. When he said to me about, that he wanted to work on a ship in the import and export business, I started to tell you I agreed with him. And this is how you have to do—particularly when you are a woman. A father could tell the man, "You are not going to do this." But I went along with that. And then the next day I said, "Lee, why don't you stay," and I went into that—"until I settle my claim, and I can babysit and we can get along." He said, "No, my mind is made up. If I stay, we will both be in these circumstances." So on the third day—I knew he wanted to do this, but I didn't think he was going to do it for a month or two. But on the third day he came with his suitcase in the room and he said, "Mother, I am off." So since his mind was made up, I told him goodby.

Mr. Rankin. He said nothing about reenlisting in the Marines?

Mrs. Oswald. No, the three days he was home. That was the conversation, about him going on a ship. I saw his passport. And his passport was stamped "import and export" on his passport.

Mr. Rankin. Did it say anything about Soviet Russia on it?

Mrs. Oswald. No. What I am saying is that I saw the passport with big writing "export and import." I think it was blue. I did not read the passport, because Lee was there, but I happened to see the passport, "export and import" stamped.

Whether he had another passport, I do not know. I didn't ask. I am saying this—and God knows I am telling you the truth. I am just this type person. It is because of my life.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know that he spoke Russian at that time, when he had this passport?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; I did not know. The only time I knew that he spoke Russian is what came out in the news. But when I really knew was Lee's application for the Albert Schweitzer College. Shall we go into that—the application?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, the first that I knew—no, I am wrong. It is not the first I knew. I had received a letter from Lee while in the Marines before he knew of my trouble, stating that he was accepted by the Albert Schweitzer College. And that letter was in the sea bag that I told you about, that I do not have.

Mr. Dulles. Would you give us the date of that letter?

Mrs. Oswald. The other letter would have been—let's see. Lee was told in July about my trouble. And the other letter I would say would be about May or June. This is March 22. I received this in care of Lee. And you see, sir, I have a lot of addresses, because I am now living in these homes.

Mr. Dulles. '57 or '58?

Mrs. Oswald. 1960.

Let's see now. Then I heard from the State Department in 1961.

"Due to a number of circumstances, we found ourselves forced to make a slight change in the arrival and departure dates of the third term. The first lecture will be held on Tuesday afternoon 16.00 o'clock, April 19, instead of taking place on the 21st with the arrival day on the 20th. It will mean that the students arrive either on the evening of Monday, the 18th, or before noon on April 19th. This change, however, makes it possible to end the term on the weekend of July 2. We hope that you will still be able to fit this change of dates into your travel plan. Should it not be possible for you to arrive on the earlier date we, of course, understand the difficulty. In the latter case, please drop us a line."

So that is how I knew that Lee—I opened his mail. I didn't know whether my son was living or dead, sir. And that is how I knew—I won't go into all this. He made a deposit. I have all of this for you.

He made a deposit. And this is my copies to them.

Now, one thing I have forgotten.

While at the State Department, the State Department told me that Lee had gone to Finland before Russia. And I did not know that.

Now, Lee had applied at a college in Finland, evidently, because on the application it states such a fact. I did not know, because the paper just said he arrived in Russia—until I went to the State Department.

So what I am trying to say—I may be forgetting a lot of important things, because I am just now remembering what the State Department told me.

I don't think I am forgetting too much.

But, after all, I am going through a whole life, and it is very hard.

This is Lee's original application, that you cannot possibly have had. This is the only application there is. So this is something new for you gentlemen. I am not going to go through it all, because you have a copy. But I am going to show you the thinking of this young man.

"Special interests: Religious, vocational, literary, sports, and hobbies. Philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis, stamp collecting"—Lee had a stamp collecting book. "Nature of private reading: Jack London, Darwin, Norman Vincent Peale, scientific books, philosophy, and so on."

Representative Ford. That is an application to where?

Mrs. Oswald. This is an original application for the Albert Schweitzer School.

"Active part taken in organizations. Student body movement in school for control of juvenile delinquency, member YMCA, and AYA association."

I don't know what that is.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you get this copy?

Mrs. Oswald. I had contacted Congressman Jim Wright, that has helped me—helped me to locate Lee through the State Department. But Mr. Jim Wright was not successful.

I was successful because of my trip to Washington, as you know.

And from the trip to Washington, I went to the building where Mr. Jim Wright worked, and I went in to tell the secretary about the trip to Washington. And that I had heard from Lee.

Well, I had information here that Lee had paid a deposit. So I had written the school and asked if we were entitled to the return of the deposit, since he didn't show up. But I did not get an answer.

So Mr. Wright's secretary said that, "Mrs. Oswald, I will write and see what we can do."

So she wrote, and then they sent the application and everything back to Jim Wright's office. And that is how I got the application.

Mr. Doyle. They may be interested in knowing where the college is.

Mrs. Oswald. It is in Switzerland. Albert Schweitzer College, Chur Walden, Graubuenen, Switzerland. "Application Form. High School. Completed high school by correspondence."

I have that. His original correspondence in the service—completed high school.

Mr. Rankin. Is that part of his Marine work—he finished high school that way?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir.

"January '58, Passing 65 on scale of 100 B plus. College: None."

And then I read his books.

Now, we go down to here.

"Vocational Interests if decided upon: To be a short story writer on contemporary American life."

Now, "General statement regarding reasons for wishing to attend the Albert Schweitzer College: In order to acquire a fuller understanding of that subject which interests me most, philosophy, to meet with Europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding, to receive formal education by institutes of high standing and character, to broaden my knowledge of German, and to live in a healthy climate and good moral atmosphere."

This is very good thinking, gentlemen. We are getting a picture now of the boy which has been not told in the paper.

I have read this one particular statement at three press conferences. The first press conference was about 80 members there, from foreign lands and everything. Nothing was printed. Then I had a second press conference with 16 men and I said, "Now, I am tired of the things that are being said about my family, myself, and Lee. We are not perfect. But I know there is some good things. And I have read a particular statement that has not been printed. Let's see if one of you has the courage to print it."

There was 16 there. That did not come out. I had a third conference, and I said the same thing and quoted this. That was not made public in the paper.

I hold a lot of these answers, gentlemen, as you know by now.

Mr. Rankin. You notice the next paragraph, about his plans?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, "Plans to be pursued after the period at Albert Schweitzer College: To attend the short summer course of the University of Turku, Turku, Finland."

Now, I have a brochure. This I cannot understand—from this college, dated 1960. I have this for you, Mr. Rankin—dated 1960.

Lee is in Russia.

And the men in the State Department told me he went to Finland before Russia. But this is dated 1960. I have it for you.

But I don't understand that.

"Then to return to America and pursue my chosen vocation."

Mr. Rankin. I want to ask you about that. Do you think he meant this at the time?

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know. I am saying—and I am going to stick to my story—that Lee is an agent, then a lot of this is a lot of baloney. I cannot make it any stronger. I don't know, sir. The boy is gone, and I didn't hear from his own lips.

Mr. Rankin. You think that he decided to defect after this application, then?

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know, sir, because I have not had this from the boy. I am speculating. But I have a lot of documents to sustain my speculation.

Mr. Rankin. Now, this, you cannot tell one way or another about whether he is an agent by this.

Mrs. Oswald. I cannot tell by anything he is an agent, if you want proof. I am becoming a little discouraged about this, because I keep telling you—I did not have proof, sir. But I am giving you documents leading to it.

Mr. Rankin. All I am trying to find out is what you have. You are giving us that. I am also trying to find out whatever proof you have about these various things that we can rely on.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I am going to state once and for all, because it upsets me very much emotionally. And I have stated before, I do not have proof, sir. I do not have proof of an agent. I do not have proof my son is innocent. I do not have proof.

Mr. Rankin. You don't have any proof of a conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald. Of anything. It is just as I feel, like the Dallas police do not have proof my son shot President Kennedy. If they have anything, it is circumstantial evidence. I have as much circumstantial evidence here that Lee was an agent as the Dallas police have that he shot President Kennedy.

"Familiarity with foreign languages, if any. Russian equal in fluency to about 1 year's education or schooling. I also speak a very little German. General condition of health: Good. Have you ever had any serious illness or nervous disturbances: No."

Mr. Rankin. Is that correct?

Mrs. Oswald. That is correct.

I want to get to that psychiatric. There will be a story there.

"Does such a condition still exist: No."

I don't understand this—do you?

"General condition of health: Good. Have you had a serious illness or nervous disturbance, no. If so, explain."

Then he has a dash.

"Are you at present receiving medical or psychiatric care? No."

And then he gives as references—you have this, so I won't go into it.

A chaplain—would you like me to go into all these names for the record?

Mr. Rankin. No, we can offer this.

Did you know any of those people that he showed as references?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. I do not. And that is dated the 3d, 4th, '59. And this is another application form from the Albert Schweitzer College.

"I hereby apply to attend the student course from April 12, 1960 to June 27, 1960. Surname: Oswald. Christian name: Lee Harvey. Mr. Age, 20. Mother tongue: English. Other language you know: Russian. Equal in fluency to 1 year of schooling. Occupation: Student. Nationality: American. Exact address: MCAF, MACS-9, Santa Ana, California, USA. Remarks: Please inform me of the amount of the deposit if required so I can forward it and confirm my reservation and show my sincerity of purpose. Thank you. Lee Harvey Oswald."

Well, he did, and I have this here, make a deposit of $25, which the school informed me that they would not be able to refund, because it would take care of any incidentals that had occurred for him not appearing.

Gentlemen, it is 10 minutes to five, I believe I had a full day. I worked last night on the papers. I came early to have copies made.

This was a complete story, I believe, and I have at least three other complete stories. And I have a story of my life that I believe from newspaper accounts that you will be very surprised also to know the type person I am. But according to the newspaper—of course, really nothing bad has been said about me, otherwise than one particular instance. That I can prove and have witnesses that it is not the case.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, you said you had three more stories. Just name them. Name what stories they are, so we will know what they are.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir.

It would be Lee's life, sir, from early childhood, and the psychiatric treatment in New York, that I want to tell you about.

The Chairman. Up to 16?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, because we have finished that, because we went into that.

And then my life, from early childhood, which you have asked, Mr. Rankin, in a letter.

The third was Lee as an agent, which I have gone into.

The Chairman. Lee what?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee being an agent.

But I have really gone into that.

The Chairman. So really, there are only two more?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, my life and Lee's life.

Now, I would like you to have this picture—if you have not seen it. And I will not comment on it. I want you to study it thoroughly, use a magnifying glass, if possible, and if you care to, we will discuss it.

Now, this is out of the Post Magazine.

There is another picture that I would like the Commission to get which, is in the Memorial Issue of President Kennedy—I think it is the Post. I will get that information for you.

Mr. Doyle. Would you like to advise the Commission generally what you believe they will find out from this?

Mrs. Oswald. I would rather not comment on that at this particular moment. I submit it to them for them to look over all the people, to study it. I have two. You may have that one for the record.

Mr. Dulles. What does this purport to be of?

Mrs. Oswald. That is a picture of the book depository the day of the assassination of President Kennedy. And there are people in the picture.

The Chairman. Well, is there anything you want us to see in the picture?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I would rather you see it yourself. I see what I see.

The Chairman. What do you see?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, all right.

I see Marina and the child—the girl and the baby, it could be Marina.

The Chairman. Will you show us, please?

Mrs. Oswald. And, again, I am saying—I cannot be sure this is the picture. But this right here. This girl with this baby could possibly be Marina and June.

Mr. Rankin. And that is the girl——

Mrs. Oswald. This girl holding the baby.

Mr. Rankin. Right next to the door?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, right next to the door. In back of her is the hat of a man. I have started this. I will continue.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 203, for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, may I offer this?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 203.

And that is the photograph that you were just referring to, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is the photograph the day of the assassination.

Mr. Rankin. And you pointed out the girl on the left column——

Mrs. Oswald. Of the entrance to the book depository, holding a child.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 203 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Dulles. Do we know the time this was taken?

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell about the time this was taken?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This, I understand, was when President Kennedy was shot. He is supposed to be holding his throat here. And this is the car. This is right after he passed the book depository, when he is supposed to have been shot.

The Chairman. Very well. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)