Monday, February 10, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman: Senator Richard B. Russell, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The Chairman. The Commission will come to order.

Let the record show that Senator Russell and I are present, and we convened today for the purpose of taking the testimony of Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. Oswald, would you rise and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, throughout this proceeding?

Mrs. Oswald. I do—so help me God.

The Chairman. You may be seated.

Now, Mrs. Oswald, you are here represented by an attorney, are you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir; Mr. Doyle is representing me.

The Chairman. Mr. Doyle is representing you. Mr. Doyle was appointed, was he not, at your request?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I asked to be represented by counsel.

The Chairman. Yes. And the record may show that Mr. Doyle was appointed to represent her at the request of Mrs. Oswald by the president of the Bar Association of the District of Columbia, Mr. Pratt.

That is correct, is it not, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. It is, sir.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, you are appearing voluntarily before the Commission, are you not?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, voluntarily.

The Chairman. You requested to do so.

In order that you may have a full opportunity to testify in your own manner, and tell us everything that you know, and particularly because we do not know what you know, I am going to ask you if you would like first, in your own way, and in your own time, to tell us everything you have concerning this case.

You would like to do that, would you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, Chief Justice Warren. I would like to very much.

However, there are three things that I have asked that should be brought before the Council, three requests of mine. One has already been granted—that is the counsel, Mr. Doyle. And I do appreciate that fact.

I have stated publicly that I believe in the American way of life and justice for all men, which is our American way of life.

My son, Lee Harvey Oswald, was tried and convicted within a few hours time, without benefit of counsel. And so I am appealing to the Board that my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, be represented by counsel. I am being represented by counsel. My daughter-in-law Marina was represented by counsel. And I understand that all other witnesses will have the privilege of being represented by counsel.

However, the main object of the Commission is Lee Harvey Oswald, in the murder of President Kennedy. So I strongly believe that Lee should be represented by counsel.

Now, my reasons for wanting this done this way is, I will state, that Marina has testified. Marina has testified, according to the papers—and I am assuming that this is correct—that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba, and that is why he went to Mexico.

I happen to know differently—because Marina has told me the first day I was with her, "Mama, I write to Russian consul. I want go back to Russia. I like America. But Lee no get work."

So you see, had a counsel been there in behalf of my son, when Marina said that—it doesn't have to be a court trial or a cross-examination. All I am asking is that this man sit quietly, and when he knows of different facts, then he could say, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, isn't it true that you wrote the Russian consul yourself, wanting to go back to Russia?"

And in this way, gentlemen, I believe you would have both sides and a true picture.

I cannot see how you can come to a true conclusion by taking individual testimony.

Now, I, myself, am here today to testify. I have been sworn in. But that doesn't mean that I can tell the whole story. I may forget something. And the counsel would know.

We have investigators all over the country, the reporters are interested, the public. I have over 1,500 letters, people expressing their opinion of the way this case is being handled. And, believe me, gentlemen, they are not satisfied.

I can produce these documents for you.

They think, like I think, that the American way of life, both sides should be heard.

I don't think that seven men of this Commission can come to a true conclusion. What it will be, it will be an analysis of what the FBI and the Secret Service and the Dallas police have—mainly, speculation and opinion of other people.

Now, Mr. Lane has affidavits, I understand, from the same witnesses that have made statements to the Dallas police, which are contrary to those particular statements.

I implore you—I implore you, in the name of justice, to let my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, who is accused of assassinating the President, and I, the mother of this man, who is the accused's mother, be represented by counsel.

We have information pertinent to this case.

My daughter-in-law is the only one who has testified.

The things that came out in the paper—I know, I have documents. I am not asking you to believe me as a mother. I can prove the statements that I say.

And I believe in this way you will have a true picture, and a much better picture, because as you are going along you will be having both sides, and won't have to wait to analyze the situation in the end, as the testimony is being given by each individual, right then and there—you will have the other party's testimony.

Now, there is another——

The Chairman. Before you leave that, Mrs. Oswald, may I say to you, first, that the Commission is not here to prosecute your dead son. It is not here and it was not established to prosecute anyone.

It is the purpose and the province of the Commission to obtain all the facts that it can obtain, and then make an impartial report—not as a prosecutor, but as an impartial Commission—on the manner in which the President came to his death.

We are trying to recognize the individual rights of all persons who are called before the Commission, to let them have their lawyers, and let their lawyers have an opportunity to examine them, as well as the Commission.

You may be sure that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of his own knowledge, or has any accumulation of affidavits from others, to the effect—to any effect, concerning this trial, that he will have an opportunity to come here, just as you are here, in order to present those to the Commission.

But so far as his being here at all times before the Commission to cross-examine or to be present when all witnesses are testifying—that is not in accordance with the procedures of the Commission.

But I assure you that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of any kind bearing upon the assassination of the President, he will be accorded the same opportunity that you have to come here and present them, and we will give him an opportunity in his own way to tell his story, and present his own evidence. And should he want counsel, he may have counsel, also.

Now, you may go to your second point.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I am not finished with my first, please.

I appreciate and I understand exactly what you have told me, Chief Justice Warren.

But there is one thing—and, of course, I will have to accept your decision, and will be most happy to have Mr. Lane present his testimony the way you have suggested.

However, I am not in agreement with you. One point I want to make clear.

We do not know the questions that you are asking of myself or Marina or the other witnesses. And I contend that you cannot ask them the pertinent questions because you don't know what I know, and what Mr. Lane knows. And so you will still have an analysis in the long run, a conclusion.

I am going to go back to Marina. As I say, Marina made her statements——

The Chairman. On that particular thing, may I say this: It is true that we don't know how to examine you at the present time because we don't know what you have to present to this Commission. But we are affording you the opportunity before we ask you any questions to tell your story, in your own way.

Then we should know what questions we want to ask of you.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir; I understand that thoroughly.

But I am a human being, going through a life story from childhood, and I may forget something that my counsel would know. And that applies to witnesses. They may forget to testify something that my counsel has facts on. I will have to accept your verdict, but I don't do it graciously.

I want that for record.

The Chairman. Yes. Well, that is all right, Mrs. Oswald. You may state that for the record.

Mrs. Oswald. I have documents, and I would like to ask, please—I will not leave any documents out of my hand. I carry them with me wherever I go. Even Mr. Doyle has been told that the documents stay with me.

I have had documents stolen from me. I have had newspaper clippings stolen from me in my home, by the Secret Service.

I make the statement perfectly plain. And so the documents stay with me.

Now, these are originals. I want, and you will want, copies of every original I have, and I will be more than happy to let you have them. However, I want to be present when these copies are made and the original returned to me.

I will under no circumstances let anyone have my originals for an hour or two, and then return them to me—if I am making myself plain.

I would like to request that, please.

The Chairman. We will accommodate you in that respect.

Mrs. Oswald. Then I have one other stipulation or request.

When I tell my story, I will be including people in my story that possibly you don't know of. I request that I have the privilege, through you, of course, to subpena these people that are in connection with the story that I tell, if you do not have the names already.

And I feel sure that I have some information that you don't know about, and there are some people involved.

I also request that after my testimony, that Marina Oswald will be subpenaed—not subpenaed but will then testify again, if you see fit. And I believe that I have contrary testimony to her testimony that would make it necessary for her to be recalled.

I ask that that be granted.

The Chairman. Well, Mrs. Oswald, of course you have no power of subpena, and we have no power to give you the power of subpena. But you may be sure that if your evidence produces anything that is critical to this investigation, that we will pursue it to the end, in order to determine the weight of the testimony for our final report. You may be sure of that.

Mrs. Oswald. I appreciate that.

The Chairman. But as to how we do it, or when we do it, you will just have to leave that to the Commission.

Mrs. Oswald. You will give me the assurance that these people I name, regardless of title—I am liable to name some very important people——

The Chairman. No, we cannot give you any assurance, because we don't know——

Mrs. Oswald. I see no reason, then, for my testimony.

The Chairman. Well, Mrs. Oswald—you cannot commit us to subpenaing anybody. We don't know. You are talking to us, and we are in the dark. You cannot commit this Commission to doing something that might be improper, it might not even be helpful in any way, shape, or form. The Commission will be reasonable in every respect. We have no desire to protect anyone. We have no desire to injure you or anyone else in this matter. And certainly you ought to have some confidence in a commission that is appointed by the President, and not try to tie our hands in a way that would be contrary to the manner in which commissions normally proceed.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, Mr. Warren, you made a statement that you in no way—I cannot quote your words—intimidate me. But you did not include my son. My son is being accused of the murder of President Kennedy. And I think that my son should be considered in this. He is dead. But we can show cause that my son is not the assassin of President Kennedy. And so I would like my son—he is the main object of the Presidential Commission, is he not, sir?

The Chairman. No, no, he is not, Mrs. Oswald. The purpose of this Commission is to determine what the facts are in the assassination of President Kennedy.

It is not an accusation against your son. There was an accusation against your son in the Texas courts. That is an entirely different proceeding.

We are here to do justice and be fair to everyone concerned in this matter. And I assure you that that is our main and our only purpose in serving on this Commission. None of us cherish this responsibility.

Mrs. Oswald. I am sure, sir.

The Chairman. And the only satisfaction we can derive from it is to be fair to all concerned.

And I assure you that is our objective in the matter.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not mean to imply that this Commission will not be fair. I know about the men on the Commission. And they are all very fine men, including yourself, Chief Justice Warren. If I have implied that, I will—will now say I do not imply. But I do state a fact that I do not think that you can come to a true conclusion. I want that for record.

Now, I am going to produce—and this will be a fact—and this is on the basis——

The Chairman. Now, we have finished the three things that you are talking about, and we are going to your testimony?

Mrs. Oswald. This is in connection with this, Chief Justice Warren. And I think it is very important to present a picture.

And then if you allow me these few minutes, I will be through.

Is that satisfactory, sir?

The Chairman. Yes, go right ahead.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I believe you mentioned that you would not have the power or give me the power to subpena them. But if I could produce the facts in my story, then I believe we should have these people called.

Now, here is an article in the Washington paper—and the date happens to be torn off, but I can get it—that Senator John G. Tower had made. And I have outlined here——

The Chairman. I wonder, Mrs. Oswald—before we get into any details of this kind, let's settle this situation as to whether the Commission will say to you now that it will subpena anyone you ask.

I must say to you that you cannot put that burden on the Commission. The Commission will have to exercise its own discretion as to who it subpenas and when.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chief Justice, may I say something? I was wondering if whether or not what Mrs. Oswald is addressing respectfully to the Commission is her confidence that if in the course of her own testimony and the actual facts that she is producing, she expresses confidence that if those facts recommend the subpena of additional witnesses, or the recall of others, she expresses her confidence that that would be done, if the facts she outlines so require.

The Chairman. She may be very sure of that, as I tried to tell her.

But the only thing—I would not want Mrs. Oswald to leave here and say, "I gave the Commission a list of witnesses and they did not call all of them."

Now, that is a matter that will have to be in the province of the Commission, and not in the province of a witness.

And I say that without any combative—not in a combative spirit. Because, as your counsel states, I think we are not far apart on it, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. Oswald. No. And I appreciate the fact——

The Chairman. But fairness will have to judge our actions. And we propose to be fair.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I guess I am a very stubborn person. I am a very aggressive person, as you know by now.

I would like—this would be just 2 minutes, and it would bring a point, and then I would be through, if I may.

The Chairman. Very well.

Mrs. Oswald. Senator Towner has dates here, and the main part of the article is that he had received a letter from the State Department.

Now, I would like—I have information from the State Department, I have documents from the State Department which is contrary to the dates and contrary to Senator Tower's public statement.

And I would like to have the letter that he has from the State Department, and the name of the man that wrote it, because it is contrary to what I have.

He could have been, to use an American slang, shooting his mouth off, because he said if he went to Russia let him stay there, I would not help him—is what he said.

But then again he may have this very important letter from this man in the State Department, which is incorrect, from what I have.

Now, he claims—and if you would like to read that—and that is what I was trying to bring out.

The Chairman. I think you will have to leave that to the wisdom of the Commission and its sense of fair play, and what is necessary, all facts considered.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I have had my say, gentlemen, and I will most graciously continue.

However. I am not too happy that I will not have counsel for my son, because I believe my son would also be entitled to counsel.

The Chairman. Very well, you may continue.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I will start——

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, may I introduce Congressman Ford, also a member of the Commission.

Now, Mrs. Oswald—Mr. Lee Rankin will be in charge of the hearing from this point on. He is our General Counsel, as you know.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed to produce the papers and tell us about them, and then I will ask the Commission after we get them, to permit us to substitute copies, and in accordance with your request we will let you be present at the time we make the photostats.

The Chairman. You may start to tell your story in your own way.

Mrs. Oswald. I have three different stories. I understand from Mr. Rankin's letter that my life is to be told from the very start, and so is Lee's life, from the very start. So which will I start first?

I believe it would be easier for me and of more benefit to the counsel if I would continue with one life, the whole story, and then continue with the—whichever way you would suggest I do it.

Mr. Rankin. If you could start out and tell us within the period that Lee Oswald returned from the Soviet Union on, whatever you know about it, in your own way, and then we will go back to the other matters later.

Is that all right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir—anything is just fine. I am willing to help in any way possible.

I wanted to state it clearly in the beginning.

I received a speedletter from the State Department stating that Lee would leave Moscow, and how he would leave and arrive in New York—on June 13, 1962. I was on a case in Crowell, Tex. I am a practical nurse. And I was taking care of a very elderly woman, whose daughter lived in Fort Worth, Tex.

So I was not able to leave and meet Lee.

Robert, his brother, met him, and Lee went to Robert's home.

Approximately about a week later—I could not stand it any more—I called the daughter and had her come to take care of her mother, and took 3 days off, and went to Fort Worth to see Lee and Marina.

Marina is a beautiful girl. And I said to Lee, "Marina, she doesn't look Russian. She is beautiful."

He says, "Of course not. That is why I married her, because she looks like an American girl."

I asked her where he had met her, and he said he met her at a social function, a community function.

I said, "You know, Lee, I am getting ready—I was getting ready to write a book on your so-called defection.

"I had researched it and came to Washington in 1961, and, by the way, asked to see President Kennedy, because I had a lot of extenuating circumstances at the time because of the defection."

He said, "Mother, you are not going to write a book."

I said, "Lee, don't tell me what to do. I cannot write the book now, because, Honey, you are alive and back."

But, at the time, I had no way of knowing whether my son was living or dead, and I planned to write the book.

"But don't tell me what to do. It has nothing to do with you and Marina. It is my life, because of your defection."

He said, "Mother, I tell you you are not to write the book. They could kill her and her family."

That was in the presence of my son Robert Oswald and his wife.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us about what date that was?

Mrs. Oswald. Let's see. Lee arrived in New York on June 13, and—now, I have a letter stating, from Lee, that he is arriving in New York on June 13th. However, he plans to go to Washington for a day or two. So I have no way of knowing, Mr. Rankin, whether he came straight from New York to my son's home, or if he stayed in New York and came to Washington a few days.

But I have the letter stating that.

But I have no way of knowing.

Mr. Rankin. Was this conversation within about a week of the time that he came back?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, approximately. That is correct.

So I stayed in Fort Worth 2 or 3 days. I did not live at Robert's home. I rented a motel. In fact, the lady of the mother I was taking care of paid my motel expenses while I was in Fort Worth. But I went there every day.

While I was there—Marina is a pharmacist. I have a medical book, and Lee was saying that he was losing his hair, and how he had become bald, because of the cold weather in Texas.

So I got the medical book, looking up baldness, and the treatment for baldness, and Marina came by and she read the prescriptions.

So I said, "Lee, she reads English," and he said, "Mother, that is Latin, of course, that is universal."

So because it was a medical conversation, Lee said he had an operation while in the Soviet Union on his throat.

I am sorry—but all of the confusion of myself being there and the daughter-in-law, the Russian girl—that was never gone into. That is all I know.

But that was also said in the presence of my son Robert—that he had an operation on his throat while in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say when that was?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; that was all that was said.

As I say, with all the confusion of Marina, we were so thrilled with Marina, with the children and all, there was quite a bit of confusion.

Now, I left, and I went back to Crowell on my job.

While I was in Robert's home, Lee immediately was out job-hunting. And I felt very bad about that, because they had come 10,000 miles by ship, by plane, and by train, which was an awfully hard trip with a young baby, and I thought he should at least have a week or two before he would look for work.

But I want you to know that immediately Lee was out looking for work.

And this is the time that Lee had gone to the public stenographer, made the statement that he was writing a book.

You probably have that information. It was highly publicized.

I, myself, gave him the $10 that he gave the public stenographer.

I bought Marina clothes, and brought clothes to her while at my daughter-in-law's house, bought diapers for the baby. And Marina had more clothes when she arrived in the States than I now have.

So what I am trying to state is as we go further into the story, it has been stated that my son neglected Marina, and that she didn't have any clothes. The Russian people have stated that all throughout Texas in the papers. And that is not true. I happen to know, because I, myself, bought Marina three dresses. And my daughter-in-law bought dresses, and my daughter-in-law's sister, which I would like to have as a witness, bought clothes for Marina. So there is this conflicting testimony.

Mr. Rankin. What daughter-in-law was that?

Mrs. Oswald. Robert's wife. And Robert's wife's sister, who is a schoolteacher, bought clothes for Marina.

Mr. Rankin. Is she married?

Mrs. Oswald. No. She is a schoolteacher. She is single.

So that story there is incorrect.

So then I went back to Crowell, Tex., and I was not satisfied in my mind because the way they lived. They only had a two-bedroom house. As you know. Robert has two children. And there was another couple with another child.

So Lee immediately began looking for work.

So I decided that I would quit this job and help the children all I could. So I did. I gave notice. And I came to Fort Worth, and I rented an apartment at the Rotary Apartments, which is on West 7th and Summit. And Lee and Marina then came to live with me.

Mr. Rankin. How long did they stay at Robert's?

Mrs. Oswald. They stayed at Robert's approximately 2 or 3 weeks, sir.

So then they came to live with me.

While there, I said to Lee—I am ahead of my story.

Lee and Marina had sent me wonderful gifts, and I have the gifts, from Russia. A box of tea, very fine tea, a Russian scarf, pure linen napkins, embroidered with my initial, a box of candy for Christmas that has a Russian Santa Claus on it.

I said to Lee. "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you decided to return back to the United States when you had a job in Russia, and as far as I know you seemed to be pretty well off, because of the gifts that you have sent me. And you are married to a Russian girl, and she would be better off in her homeland than here. I want to know."

He said, "Mother, not even Marina knows why I have returned to the United States."

And that is all the information I ever got out of my son.

"Not even Marina knows why I have returned to the United States."

Mr. Rankin. How did you get along when you were there together with Marina and your son?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, that was a very happy month, Mr. Rankin. Marina was very happy. She had the best home, I believe, that she had ever had. And Lee—I was taking Lee out to work every morning, looking for work, through the unemployment commission, and ads in the paper. And I was taking care of the baby and doing the cooking, and Marina was helping clean up. And she would wash the dishes. And Lee and Marina would go for long walks every afternoon, and I would take care of the baby. Marina would sing around the house, and watch the television and comment on different programs, programs that she had seen in Russia.

She knew—there was a picture with Gregory Peck, and she said, "Mama, I know Gregory Peck."

And she was singing Santa Lucia.

And here again in my stupidity, I said to Lee, "Lee, she knows English, she is singing Santa Lucia."

He said, "Mother, that is an international song."

Marina was very happy, and I was very happy to have the children.

And Lee desperately looked for work.

He was offered several good jobs from the State Employment Office of Texas. One in particular, I remember he said that he regretted not getting the job, but they told him because his wife was not an American citizen, that they would not be able to hire him.

He met obstacles all the way.

This one particular woman at the Texas employment agency took an interest in Lee and went out all the way to give Lee clues for jobs. And I, myself, took Lee job-hunting every day.

And it is through the employment office that he became employed 3 weeks later, after he was in my home, by the Leslie Manufacturing Co. in Fort Worth, which is a sheetmetal place.

Mr. Rankin. Now, while Marina was living with you there, and your son, and the little baby——

Mrs. Oswald. June.

Mr. Rankin. Did you talk to Marina, and did she speak English to you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, she spoke English, Mr. Rankin. Like she would say—and we used the dictionary when she didn't understand.

She would say—I would say, "Marina, you now nurse your baby."

"Yes, Mama. The time."

Or "No time."

With motions—"no time. Mama."

She spoke English.

Mr. Rankin. What I would like to find out for the Commission, if we can, in regard to speaking English, did you think she was able to talk English fluently, or did you think she was in the process of learning it?

Mrs. Oswald. She was in the process of learning. But she understood more than she could talk.

And I have a letter from Lee stating that Marina also speaks and understands French, that she had learned at grammar school.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know French?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Rankin. So you could not tell?

Mrs. Oswald. I could not tell.

And I didn't think a thing of it.

And, of course. Marina and Lee spoke Russian all the time, even in front of me.

And you asked about this time—it was a very happy time. They would sit at the table. They were playing a game, and I said to Lee, "What is it you are doing?"

Because they were always talking in Russian.

"Mother, we are playing a game which is similar to American tic-tac-toe."

And they also taught each other. They had books. They are both children—very intelligent and studious. Lee was teaching Marina English, and Marina was teaching him some things that he wanted to know about Russia, in my home.

Mr. Rankin. Now, you were saying that he got this job at the Leslie Manufacturing Co.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir.

And then his first pay—he kept his first pay. And then the second pay, he rented the home on Mercedes Street, which is the south side, and approximately 10 blocks from where I lived at the Rotary Apartment, and approximately 10 blocks from where he was to work.

Lee had no car, and Lee walked to and back from work, which helped to save money.

Now, you must understand that this couple had no money, and had nothing. I gave them some dishes, and some silverware, and just a few little things that I could help out with.

But Lee did have the first week's pay.

And then the second week's pay. And he rented this home which was $59.50 a month. It was a nice little one-bedroom furnished duplex, in a nice neighborhood, convenient to his work.

But then that leaves the boy broke.

I brought food into the house. I never like to talk about the other members of the family, because to me that is speculation. But I know that Robert brought food, also, in the house. And they were not in want. Marina nursed June.

Now, it has been stated in the paper that the Russian friends have gone into the home and they are talking about this home, and found that they were in desperate straits, that there was no food in the house, and no milk for the baby.

I say Marina nursed the baby.

They may have walked into this home, where maybe they didn't have at that particular time any milk in the box. Maybe Lee was going to bring groceries home. But I know they were not in destitute circumstances in that respect.

They had no money and didn't have anything. I brought groceries, and I brought a roll of scotch toweling. I had bought two packs and I gave them one.

And the next day when I went by, the scotch toweling was in the kitchen, on a coat hanger, with a nail.

And I think that is real nice, a young couple that doesn't have any money, that they can use their imagination, and put up the scotch toweling to use on a coat hanger. They are just starting married life in a new country. And they have no money. But here is the point. The Russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes, could not see this Russian girl doing without. They are the ones that interfered. They are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the way this Russian girl—and within a short time, then, this Russian girl had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a Taylor Tot. And this all came out in the paper—that they supplied this to the girl, because she was in need of these things.

I say it is not necessary for a young couple to have a playpen for a baby. We have millions and millions of American couples in the United States that cannot afford playpens for the children. I, myself, have been in that position.

So I think those things were immaterial.

The point I am trying to bring out is that these Russian friends have interfered in their lives, and thought that the Russian girl should have more than necessary.

And my son could not supply these things at that particular time. He was just starting to work.

This, to me, is very strong in my mind, that there are a lot of Russian friends that were made immediately, that have interfered and have publicly stated—a circle of friends, approximately eight or nine, that would not give their names in the paper, they were interviewed by Mr. Tinsley of the Star Telegram—that has downed Lee for every way possible.

So these are the Russian friends who are established with cars, and didn't think that the Russian girl was getting a good break in America.

Mr. Rankin. Were there any differences between you and Lee Oswald or Marina while they were in your home? Did you have any quarrels?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, no, sir, none at all.

Now, there was one thing. And I will point out the character of my son, and what I am saying about the playpen and so on.

Now, this was all done within a few weeks time. They moved there—they left my home in July, and they moved there in August, and then they moved to Dallas in October. So it was in this period of time that all these things were accumulated from Russian friends.

And no man likes other people giving—interfering in his way of living, and giving all these things to his wife that he himself cannot supply. This is a human trait, I would say.

Now, I want to bring this story up.

I could not afford to buy a bed for my grandchild, because I have worked prior to this for nothing. The job that I had quit I was making $25 a week, gentlemen—a 24-hour live-in job. The jobs prior to this I worked for $10 a week, 7 days a week, a live-in job.

Because of Lee's so-called defection, and my accident, the way I was treated, left destitute, without any medical or compensation, I decided to devote my life to humanity, and I became a practical nurse. And I have worked for $5 a week, living in the place.

So I had no money, I had $200 saved, when I came to Fort Worth, and that is what I rented the house with, and brought the food with.

So then that leaves me broke.

So I gave up a job in order to help this girl.

So to get back now to the home, Mr. Rankin—we had no quarrels. This month was beautiful. Marina was very happy.

I had the car and the television, and we went around.

As I say, they were free to go and come like they want. They would take long walks.

If you are not familiar with Fort Worth, Tex., from the Rotary Apartment to Leonard Brothers is approximately 3 miles, and they used to walk there, and they came home—Marina came home with a Cancan petticoat and some hose that Lee bought here with a few dollars that Robert and I had given him—he spent on his wife.

So that was a very happy time.

Now, when they lived in the home on Mercedes Street that he rented, I was employed as an OB, a nurse, in Fort Worth, Tex., at an OB's salary. And that salary, gentlemen, will astonish you. I worked, lived in, for $9 a day, 24 hours duty.

On an OB case—I am very busy with the baby all day long because people are coming in and out, giving presents and so on. I have a 10 o'clock feeding for the baby. And it is approximately 11 o'clock before I am through and in bed. The baby is up again at 2 o'clock. It is approximately 3:30 before I am through again with the baby. The baby is up again at 5:30. And it is approximately—then my day starts. I am stressing the point that I worked for $9 a day during all that, a $9 a day job. So that is 7 days a week, $63.

Now, this is the first time I have had a nurse's salary, I want you to understand.

So with my first pay, I bought Marina clothes, I bought the baby clothes, and I brought food into this home. I went all out for Marina. I just love her, and was just thrilled to death with her. And I bought a highchair. I could not afford a bed, because I didn't have enough money to buy the bed. So that is why I bought the clothes and things of that sort. But I bought the baby a highchair.

Mr. Rankin. How did Marina treat you then?

Mrs. Oswald. Fine. But then Marina was not satisfied with the things that I bought her.

As you see, the way I am properly dressed—I don't say I mean to be the height of fashion, but I have—before becoming a nurse I was in the business world, and I have been a manager in the merchandise field. So I do know clothes.

And I bought her some shorts. And she wanted short shorts, like the Americans. She pictured America in her mind evidently.

And I bought her a little longer shorts.

And "I no like, Mama."

I said, "Marina, you are a married woman and it is proper for you to have a little longer shorts than the younger girls."

"No, Mama."

And I will stress this—that Marina was never too happy—"No, Mama, no nice, no, Mama, no this."

That was perfectly all right. I thought she didn't understand our ways. I didn't feel badly about it.

I am going to get back to the highchair, to give you a picture of my son.

I bought the highchair and brought it over there, and Lee was not at home. And Marina didn't know what a highchair was. And she told me in Russian. I said, "How do they feed babies in Russia?" By this time, June was 4 or 5 months old, just getting ready to sit up.

"We put baby on lap, Mama, and baby eat on lap."

And so a highchair to me, I think, was new to Marina.

So approximately 2 or 3 days later I go over there and Lee says to me, "Now, Mother, I want you to understand right here and now—I want you to stop giving all these gifts to me and my wife. I want to give Marina whatever is necessary, the best I can do. I want you to keep your money and take care of yourself, because today or tomorrow you take sick, and you spend all your money on us, I will have to take care of you." Which makes very good sense.

But he strongly put me in my place about buying things for his wife that he himself could not buy.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to that?

Mrs. Oswald. I agreed with him. And I said—the shock of it—I realize what a mother-in-law I was in interfering. And, of course, that is part that we mothers-in-law do unconsciously. We try to help out our children, and in a way we are interfering in their life. They would rather have their own way of doing things.

And I realize that I had interfered, and the boy wanted to take care of his wife. So no more was said about it.

I go into many homes, being a nurse, and I see this problem also, where the mothers and mothers-in-law bring things, and the men strongly object to it—they would rather do without, and have their wife do without, and they themselves be the master of the home.

So then I realized I was being a foolish mother-in-law, and that he was perfectly right.

I should save my money and take care of myself. He had a wife and baby to take care of. If I didn't have any money, he might have to take care of me. So I agreed with that.

Mr. Rankin. Did Marina say anything about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, no, Marina didn't know—unless she understood the English part. I have no way of knowing, you see.

Mr. Rankin. All right. Tell us what happened after that, then.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, let me think just a minute.

This, gentlemen, is very emotional to me, because it is a humanitarian side that I am trying to bring out. Material things are involved to me that are of no consequence. And I am trying to point out the fact that these Russian people seemed to think that the Russian girl should have material things.

And all through my story, I can prove things that have happened of this nature.

Yes—I will continue.

I was on the OB case for very wealthy people. I then became a nurse and by word of mouth I had worked in the finest homes in Fort Worth at this salary. I have worked for Ammon Carter, Jr., who is the owner of the Star Telegram. I have worked in his home. I have worked for Dr. Ross seven weeks in his home. I have worked for Mayor Vandergriff. I took care of his last baby in his home. And I can go on and on.

So I have been employed in over 200 homes at this salary. So I know the difference of working in very poor homes, people on welfare, that I worked in, and then working in the rich homes. So I have experience, gentlemen, is what I am trying to say.

So I mentioned to Mrs. Rosenthal that Lee and Marina didn't have a baby bed, and Lee didn't have work clothes. He had had his suits from the United States yet with him when he went to Russia. But he needed work clothes since he got this job.

She said, "Mrs. Oswald, what build is he?"

And I told her. And he was about the same build as her husband.

So she got out a lot of work clothes that her husband didn't want. However, she asked me $10 for 12 pairs of used pants. And I would not buy—give her $12. Here is a very wealthy woman, and she knows the story. And she knows that I have no money. And yet she expects me to pay for his used clothing. And so I have this principle about me. And I did not buy the used clothing, the clothing for Lee.

Now, Lee is having a birthday, which is October 18th. And this is approximately the 6th or 7th of October.

Now, this Sunday, October 12th, I went—this is very important, gentleman—I went to this home and I was there—I asked to get off an hour or two to see the children, from this OB case at the Rosenthals. I went to see my son and daughter-in-law, and they were nicely dressed. And while there, about 10 minutes, a young couple came into the home, approximately the same age as Marina and Lee, and they had a little boy who I would say was about 6 or 8 months older than June. The woman put the little boy in the playpen with June, and June went to touch him, and Marina got up and said, "Oh, no, hurt baby." She spoke in English. So I said, "Do you speak Russian?" to this couple. And they said, "No, we don't. We are Americans. But my father"—and I will have to say this—"or grandfather"—I do not know which—"is a Russian, from Siberia, and that is how we know Marina and Lee."

So the conversation was general. And in the general conversation—now, this couple was from Dallas, visiting my family in Fort Worth. The conversation was general.

And she said, "Lee, my father has this place of business in Dallas, and will offer you a job in Dallas."

I said, "Lee, I didn't know that you wanted to give up your job and work in Dallas, because the Rosenthals that I am working for, her father owns the meatpacking house in Dallas, and she has told me that he employs hundreds of people, and if ever any time that you are in need, to go see her father, that she would be sure that he would give you a job."

So, gentlemen, this was on a Sunday.

I made coffee, and the house was in order. There was nothing packed.

Lee got paid on a Friday, from the Leslie Sheetmetal Works.

Monday Lee and Marina packed their belongings and went to Dallas.

The point I am bringing, is that Lee had no idea of quitting his job in Fort Worth, because he was not packed. This was on a Sunday. And this couple offered a job in Dallas. And their father, her grandfather, was a Russian, and Lee went to Dallas on a Monday, and worked for the Arts Graphic. I do not know—but you probably have that information. His very first job there.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he was discharged by the Leslie people?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, he was not discharged by the Leslie people. He just didn't show up. He was paid on a Friday, and that Monday he did not show up for work, because he came to Dallas.

The point I am bringing out is this job was also offered to Lee from a Russian father. He had no idea of moving. There was nothing packed.

Now, I understand that my son Robert helped him to move. And the way I know this—I went there on a Tuesday, and the children had gone, because they had left on a Monday. So then I went to Robert's home, and Robert was at work. So I was all upset. They didn't tell me they were leaving.

I said to Veda. "Marina and Lee are no longer there, the house is vacant."

Mr. Rankin. You spoke someone's name.

Mrs. Oswald. Veda, V-e-d-a. Robert's wife is Veda. I said they had to move yesterday.

She said "Robert helped them to move, and they gave us the food in the refrigerator."

I said it came up all of a sudden, and I told the story about the couple being there.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the name of that couple?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. And I have not been able to find out.

I have asked Mrs. Paine recently, and she said she does not remember. And the night I was in Mrs. Paine's home, I asked Marina and Mrs. Paine, and they did say a name. Marina would know the name of the couple. But I do not have that information.

Mr. Rankin. And was he the owner of this business?

Mrs. Oswald. The father was the owner of the business. And this was an American couple. And they did not speak Russian, either one. The father was a Russian, or the grandfather—that owned this place of business.

Mr. Rankin. I think you said the grandfather before.

Mrs. Oswald. I said either the father or the grandfather. I cannot be sure.

It was the girl's father or grandfather, and not the boy.

So I told my daughter-in-law about this, and she knew about it.

So now here is something that I would like to have my daughter-in-law as a witness.

It has been stated in the paper that my son was giving Marina black eyes and possibly had beat her. And this is by the Russian people.

Now, living in this home in Fort Worth, I had gone by several times I had a day off, and Marina was not at home.

I said to her, "Marina, Mama come to see you yesterday. You no home." She didn't answer.

I said, "Marina, Mama come see you. You no home, Marina."

"No. I go to lady's house to take English lessons."

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who she was speaking of?

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know for a fact. But my son Robert will know. And that is why it is important to call him. That is what I am trying to say, Chief Justice Warren. These others will know this part of my story, give you the facts.

I am assuming it is Mr. Peter Gregory's wife that started these lessons. But Marina was taking English lessons.

Now, they lived at a corner house, and there is Carol Street, and opposite Carol Street is a parking lot for Montgomery Ward. They live approximately two blocks from Montgomery Ward. So I had gone by, as I am stating, several times. You have to understand—this is just 6 or 7 weeks that they are in this home.

Mr. Rankin. You say "they." I am sorry to interrupt.

Mrs. Oswald. Marina and Lee, in this home.

Then Marina was not home. I could not understand where so fast that they could have so many friends, that this Russian girl didn't speak English and know her way about, could be gone all day long. That worried me.

So I sat in the car on Montgomery Ward's parking lot, where I could see the house, because I wanted to see who Marina was going to come home with.

The door was open. I went in the house and no one was there.

By this time, I was wondering how she could be gone all the time, being a stranger in town.

I sat in the car all day long. She didn't show up.

Finally, I went home, had my supper, left my apartment, and on the way going back to the house Lee was leaving Montgomery Ward.

Now, they did not have a phone. I am just assuming—this is not a fact—that Lee went to a telephone trying to locate his wife, because I was coming from Montgomery Ward. He got in the car with me, and we had about a block to go. I entered the home with Lee, and I said, "Lee where is Marina?" Of course, I knew that she wasn't home, because I had stayed in the car all day.

He said, "Oh, I guess she is out with some friends."

"Would you like me to fix your supper?"

"No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?"

So I left. I am not going to interfere in their married life. But I did offer to fix him supper. And I went back to make sure Marina still wasn't home.

I walked in the home with my son.

So approximately 2 days later—not approximately, but 2 days later I went to the home and my son was reading, he read continuously—in the living room, and Marina was in the bedroom, I could not see Marina. And I said to Lee, "Tell Marina, I am here."

Marina made no appearance.

So I went into the bedroom, and she was nursing June with her head down. And I started to talk. And she still had her head down. And I came around to the front and I saw Marina with a black eye.

Now, gentlemen, I don't think any man should hit his wife, as is stated in the paper, or beat his wife. But I will say this. There may be times that a woman needs to have a black eye. I am not condoning the act. But I strongly am saying that this girl was not home. And this man was working. And I saw, myself, that this man came home and didn't have any food. This couple doesn't have a maid or anyone to give this working man food. And I think it was her duty to be home and have his supper ready.

That is a little thing, maybe. But to me it shows the character of what I am trying to bring out.

And so there may have been reasons that the children fought. And I also know that many, many couples fight, of our finest people, because I made it clear before that I have worked in these very fine homes, and have seen very fine people fight. I have seen a gentleman strike his wife in front of me. We know this happens. It is not a nice thing to do. But it happens in our finest homes. I am not condoning the act. But I am telling you that there probably was reasons, we will say. The woman has a black eye, and he is a louse—he gave her a black eye, but we must consider why did he give her a black eye. We always must consider the second aspect of the case.

Mr. Rankin. Did she take the baby with her when you looked——

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, she took—always the baby was with her.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask Marina how she got the black eye or anything about it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, in the bedroom. I was shocked.

"Mama—Lee." Just like that.

So I went in the living room and I said, "Lee, what do you mean by striking Marina?"

He said, "Mother, that is our affair."

And so that ended. I wasn't going to interfere any further.

Now, this has been publicly stated by the Russian friends, that he beat his wife. I don't know if he did beat his wife. I happened to see the black eye. I know that he hit her and gave her a black eye. Marina said so, and my son has said so. But how many times does this happen, I don't know.

But I am trying to point out that I don't approve of it. But I am trying to point out that everything is not according to Hoyle, as we say in our American way of life.

Mr. Rankin. Is there any other time that you recall that you saw that she had bruises or a black eye?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; that is the only time.

And then the children moved to Dallas.

Now, this will end that part of the story.

I have accepted and I have the public papers, in 1959, when Lee went to Russia—I made a statement that as an individual I thought he had a right to make up his own mind in the decision to do what he wanted. I am of that nature, because, gentlemen, today or tomorrow I may decide to go to Russia, I will go. We are taught that in America, that we have the right to do what we want as an individual. So I publicly stated in 1959 that Lee had a right, if he wanted to live in that country. And I think it was courage that he did so, instead of staying in America and talking about America, and living here and downing his country. It took courage to go and live where he wanted to live.

I was criticized highly for making that statement. And it is published in 1959—as far back as that.

So I will get back now to when the children left.

They did not tell me they had left.

So I accepted the fact that my son Lee did not want me to know that he was in Dallas.

Why I accepted the fact is because of Lee's so-called defection.

I have had it very hard, Mr. Rankin, and gentlemen—I have lost jobs, I was in a position, if I was in a home and television was on, and something political was on television, and the people commented, I felt it was necessary to keep quiet, because of it. Because of the defection I thought if I would express my views they might think I was a Communist like my son was supposed to be. And in many a home I have been in—after three or four days they would tell me my services were not needed.

I cannot say, sure it was because of Lee's defection. However, I feel sure that it is, because I am a respected person, and a very good nurse, as has been stated in the paper. And my jobs were gotten from word of mouth.

But you must understand that I deal with a lot of people. So naturally it is natural that some of them would feel resentful against me because of my son defecting to Russia and presumably being a Communist.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever find out where Marina was that day that you tried to locate her?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, no sir, that ended that.

So I respected my son's wish, since he didn't want to tell me where he was in Dallas, that I would accept that fact.

Now, gentlemen, this may seem hard that I accept these things. But it is not. I am self-supporting. I have a life of my own. And if Lee decides that that is the way he wants it, I am not going to grieve and worry about it. I have to get my sleep in order to work. I have the ability of accepting things, the ability granted me by the grace of God, because of my difficulty in life. I have been a widow. I have had many, many obstacles, and I have had to face them. And my faith gets stronger. I do accept things.

As now, I accept the death of my son. I don't brood over that. I have that ability of doing that.

So I just accepted the fact—when Lee gets ready to let me know where he is, fine—up until that time, it is his privilege to do what he wants.

Now, that is the last contact I have had with Marina and Lee until the news broke in Dallas that Lee was picked up because of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Rankin. Tell us about this period you were talking about, when he went to Dallas. Was that before or after the time he went to New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. That was before the time, sir—he lived—from my apartment, the Rotary Apartments, when Lee got the job he lived on Mercedes Street from the end of July, I would say, or the beginning of September, until October, when he left to go to Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. What year was that?

Mrs. Oswald. That was in 1963.

Mr. Rankin. You mean '62?

Mrs. Oswald. I am sorry—1962. And that was the last I had seen of Marina and Lee.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever find where they were in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. I explained before that I made no attempt. I thought when they get ready to let me know, that is fine. Up until then, I had to do my own work and take care of myself. And I do respect other people's privileges. If that is the way they want it, fine.

When they get ready to let me know, I will welcome them. If not, I will go about my own business.

Mr. Rankin. Had you learned they had gone to New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. I had not learned of that until after the assassination. I knew nothing, I had no contact with them.

So, then, the next thing we should start then would be the Dallas—the assassination.

Mr. Rankin. Whatever you know.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I was on a case in a rest home, and I had a 3 to 11 shift. I was dressed, ready to go to work. I was watching—I am a little ahead of my story.

I watched the television in the morning before I was dressed. And Richard Nixon was in Dallas, and he made a television appearance approximately 2 hours before President Kennedy was to arrive in Dallas. And, as a layman, I remember saying, "Well, the audacity of him, to make this statement against President Kennedy just an hour or two before his arrival in Dallas."

And then I had my lunch, and I dressed, with my nurse's uniform on, to go to work, for the 3 to 11 shift. And I have to leave home at 2:30. So I had a little time to watch the Presidential procession.

And while sitting on the sofa, the news came that the President was shot. And there was a witness on television, a man and a little girl on television. However, I could not continue to watch it. I had to report to work.

So I went in the car, and approximately seven blocks away I turned the radio on in the car. I heard that Lee Harvey Oswald was picked up as a suspect.

I immediately turned the car around and came back home, got on the telephone, called Acme Brick in Fort Worth, and asked where Robert was, because he had been traveling, and I must get in touch with Robert immediately, because his brother was picked up as a suspect in the assassination. So they had Robert call me.

Robert didn't know that Lee was picked up.

Mr. Rankin. Was this the day of the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, the day of the assassination, they picked Lee up.

Mr. Rankin. And 3 to 11—that is in the afternoon?

Mrs. Oswald. This was 2:30, because I was on my way to work, and I had to be at work at 3 o'clock.

Mr. Rankin. Three in the afternoon is when you had to be at work?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, and it was 2:30 I heard the news and went back home.

I had Acme Brick call Robert to give him the news, and Robert called me, and he had not heard his brother was picked up.

Now, Robert is in Denton. So I called the Star Telegram, and asked that—if they could possibly have someone escort me to Dallas, because I realized I could not drive to Dallas. And they did. They sent two men to escort me to Dallas.

The name of one is Bob Shieffer, the other name I will have for you gentlemen.

Mr. Rankin. Who are those? Are those reporters?

Mrs. Oswald. Star Telegram reporters, sent by the Star Telegram editor to escort me to Dallas.

Now, upon arriving in Dallas, I did not ask—I did not want to talk to the police. I asked specifically to talk to FBI agents. My wish was granted, I was sent into a room. I have to backtrack my story.

The policemen do not know I am here—"I want to talk to FBI agents."

Mr. Rankin. What time of the day is this?

Mrs. Oswald. This is approximately 3:30. So I am escorted into an office, and two Brown FBI agents, they are brothers, I understand, and there was another man that I do not know the name.

Mr. Rankin. By that you mean their names were Brown?

Mrs. Oswald. Their names were Brown. And I have the correct names, also. But we were in this room, and I told them who I was. And I said, "I want to talk with you gentlemen because I feel like my son is an agent of the government, and for the security of my country, I don't want this to get out."

But, first, I said to them, "I want to talk to FBI agents from Washington."

"Mrs. Oswald, we are from Washington, we work with Washington."

I said, "I understand you work with Washington. But I want officials from Washington," and I believed they would be in town because of protecting the President.

I said, "I do not want local FBI men. What I have to say I want to say to Washington men."

Of course they wanted the news. They said, "Well, we work through Washington."

I said, "I know you do. But I would like Washington men."

So I had no choice.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell them why you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. I am coming to this.

So I said, "I have information that"—I told him who I was.

I said, "For the security of my country, I want this kept perfectly quiet until you investigate. I happen to know that the State Department furnished the money for my son to return back to the United States, and I don't know if that would be made public what that would involve, and so please will you investigate this and keep this quiet."

Of course that was news to them.

They left me sitting in the office.

And I also told them that Congressman Jim Wright knew about this.

"You can be sure we will question Jim Wright."

And I gave them the names of the four men I had talked with while in Washington.

Would you like those four names now?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. One is Mr. Boster, who was special counsel in charge of Soviet affairs.

One was Mr. Stanfield. I should know the names.

Well, gentlemen, Mr. Doyle will see that I give you the names of these men. I had it in a little card and carried it all these years from my Washington trip and gave it to the FBI men to investigate.

So they left me.

Mr. Rankin. When you say you understand that the State Department paid your son's way back from the Soviet Union——

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever learn that that was a loan?

Mrs. Oswald. I have the document to state that they loaned Lee the money to come back.

Mr. Rankin. But you didn't know that at the time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. But I stated—you see, I was worried about the security of my country. I didn't know if the public would find out—how they would take the news that the State Department loaned him the money, since now he is a Marxist and an accused assassin.

I was worried about my country. And I didn't want the public to know. I wanted the FBI, not the police, to know.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know anything else that you told them about why you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't tell them anything. But they questioned me, started to question me.

One of them said, "You know a lot about your son. When was the last time you were in touch with him?"

That wasn't the Browns. That was the other man.

I said, "I have not seen my son in a year."

He said sarcastically, "Now, Mrs. Oswald, are we to believe you have not been in touch with your son in a year? You are a mother."

I said, "Believe what you want. But I have not been in touch with my son in a year. My son did not want me involved. He has kept me out of his activities. That is the truth, God's truth, that I have not seen my son in a year."

And the gentleman left, and I did not see them after that.

They sent the stenographer that was in the outer office to sit with me, and she started to question me.

I said, "Young lady, I am not going to be questioned. You may just as well make up your mind that I am just going to sit here. What I want, if you will relay—have these two Star Telegram men come in here, please. I would like to ask them something."

So they came in. And I said, "Bob, I have rights and I want to see Lee."

Of course the men didn't answer.

But I sat in the office approximately 2 or 3 hours alone, gentlemen, with this woman who came in and out.

I said, "If you think you are going to question me or get information from me, you are not."

And I sat in the office 2 or 3 hours.

Every now and then I would walk up to the outer corridor and say to whoever was there, "Now, listen, I am getting tired of this. I want to see Lee."

Mr. Rankin. What office was this?

Mrs. Oswald. The courthouse in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Whose office was it in? Do you know?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know. It was a private office that lead—for instance, it would be like in the corner, a glass-enclosed office. And then you could see the outer corridor where the stenographers and the police and everybody was.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know whose office it was?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I do not. So I sat there approximately 3 hours. And I never did get to see Lee.

So at 5:30—then Robert came in. And he was questioned by the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. Were you there when he was questioned?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir.

And I will state now emphatically that I have never been questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service—never, gentlemen. If they can produce my voice or anything, they can produce it.

So then I was escorted into the office where Marina and Mrs. Paine was. And, of course, I started crying right away, and hugged Marina. And Marina gave me Rachel, whom I had never seen. I did not know I had a second grandchild, until this very moment. So I started to cry. Marina started to cry. And Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, Mrs. Oswald, I am so glad to meet you. Marina has often expressed the desire to contact you, especially when the baby was being born. But Lee didn't want her to."

And I said, "Mrs. Paine, you spoke English. Why didn't you contact me?"

She said Marina didn't know how to get in touch with me.

She said, "Well, because of the way they lived, he lived in Dallas, and came home to my home on weekends. I didn't feel like I wanted to interfere."

And she acted as—excuse me, gentlemen, but this is very, very emotional.

The Chairman. That is all right.

Mrs. Oswald. She acted as interpreter for Marina. We are in the courthouse now, in the jailhouse.

So her testimony, gentlemen, the testimony that the Dallas police have, is the testimony of Mrs. Paine, that Marina assumed Lee had given her.

Could we state now maybe it is not the correct testimony that Marina gave—just one interpreter, and Marina's friend, is the testimony that the Dallas police has.

I have no way of knowing, and you have no way of knowing, gentlemen, whether it is the correct testimony.

So Mrs. Paine told me that she acted as interpreter.

And I said, "I don't know what I am going to do. I want to stay in Dallas and be near Lee, so that I can help with this situation as much as possible."

She said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are welcome in my home—if you care to sleep on the sofa."

I said, "Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, I will accept your offer. I will sleep on the floor in order to be near Dallas."

So we left. We went to Mrs. Paine's home.

I am going to say again I did not see my son.

So—I had my nurse's uniform on for 3 days.

Mr. Rankin. What day was this at Mrs. Paine's?

Mrs. Oswald. This was the night of Friday, November 22d. We arrived there approximately 6 o'clock. Upon entering the home, about 5 minutes after I was in the home, there was a knock on the door.

Now, this is a little vague. On the way leaving the courthouse we may have been in the company of the two Life representatives. They may have taken us to Mrs. Paine's home. I did not ask who was taking us to Mrs. Paine's home, because I was holding my grandbaby and talking to Marina, and sitting in the back of the car. And it didn't interest me at the time how I was getting to Mrs. Paine's home.

Why I am bringing this up was because after I was in her home, about 5 minutes, there was a knock on the door, and these two Life representatives entered the home.

The name of the men, one is Allan Grant, and the other is Tommy Thompson.

And I was not introduced.

Mr. Rankin. Had you ever seen them before?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I had never seen them before. As I say, they could have been the men driving the car. But I want you to understand at the time I didn't notice that, because I was holding my new grandbaby, and comforting my daughter-in-law, and talking to Mrs. Paine in the back seat of the car.

So Mrs. Paine sat on the floor. And she said to the photographer—he had a camera in front of him—"Now, I hope you have good color film, because I want good pictures."

Mr. Rankin. What time of the day was this?

Mrs. Oswald. This was approximately 6:30. We had just arrived in Mrs. Paine's home—I would say 6 and 7 o'clock, approximately, between that time. We are home 5 minutes when they knocked on the door.

Mrs. Paine immediately says, "Gentlemen, I hope you have colored film so we will have some good pictures."

I didn't know who they were.

But then I knew they were newsmen, because of her statement and the camera.

So Tommy Thompson started to interview Mrs. Paine. He said, "Mrs. Paine, tell me, are Marina and Lee separated, since Lee lives in Dallas?"

She said, "No, they are a happy family. Lee lives in Dallas because of necessity. He works in Dallas, and this is Irving, and he has no transportation, and he comes every weekend to see his family."

"Well," he said, "What type family man is he?"

She said, "A normal family man. He plays with his children. Last night he fed June. He watches television and just normal things."

She went on.

So he said, "Mrs. Paine, can you tell me how Lee got, the money to"—I am sorry—"can you tell me how Lee was able to return back to the United States financially?"

She said, "Oh, yes, he saved the money to come back to the United States."

Now, while this little episode went on, I was fuming, gentlemen, because I didn't want this type of publicity. I thought it was uncalled for, immediately after the assassination, and the consequent arrest of my son.

But I was in Mrs. Paine's home.

Now I had an opportunity to be gracious. I spoke up and I said—I am ahead of myself.

She answered that he saved the money.

I spoke up and I said, "Now, Mrs. Paine, I am sorry. I am in your home. And I appreciate the fact that I am a guest in your home. But I will not have you making statements that are incorrect. Because I happen to know you have made an incorrect statement. To begin with, I do not approve of this publicity. And if we are going to have the life story with Life magazine"—by that time I knew what it was—"I would like to get paid. Here is my daughter-in-law with two small children, and I, myself, am penniless, and if we are going to give this information, I believe we should get paid for it."

Mr. Rankin. Did you think Mrs. Paine was trying to get paid for it?

Mrs. Oswald. Possibly. But I do know this. It was prearranged. That is the point that is important. That after a few hours time, the Life representatives were invited to her home, into her home, because she expected them, you see.

Mr. Rankin. You think she arranged it, then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, possibly with Marina's help.

I do not know. It was arranged—I am positive—the way they entered the home. She invited them in, without even introducing me. And immediately said she hoped they had color film.

Mr. Rankin. Were they talking to each other, Marina, and Mrs. Paine, while you were there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they talked in Russian. And that is a difficult part. I didn't know Russian.

Then, with that, the Life representative got up and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will call my office and see what they think about an arrangement of your life story."

So he did call the office. He closed the door and called in private. And nothing was said—in the living room.

When I say nothing was said, it was between myself and the other representative. Mrs. Paine was talking to my daughter-in-law in Russian. I was talking to my daughter-in-law in English. It was a regular general conversation, as far as I knew.

He came out from the telephone conversation and said, no, that the company would not allow him to pay for the story. What they would do—they would pay our expenses while in Dallas, and our food and expenses, hotel accommodation.

So I told him that I would think about it.

Now, they continued to hang around. And they were taking pictures continuously, all the while this was going on—the photographer, Mr. Allen was continuously taking pictures. I was awfully tired and upset. I rolled my stockings down, and the picture is in Life Magazine. And he stopped that. So I got up and said, "I am not having this invasion of privacy. I realize that I am in Mrs. Paine's home. But you are taking my picture without my consent, and a picture that I certainly don't want made public." It is the worst—with me rolling my hose. I wanted to get comfortable.

He followed Marina around in the bedroom. She was undressing June. He took pictures of everything. And Mrs. Paine was in her glory—I will say this. Mrs. Paine was very happy all these pictures were taken. And I had to go behind Marina to see that the photographers were not taking her, and they were taking me. And it was just a regular—the home was a living room and a hall and a bedroom and kitchen, and we were all going around in circles.

And the photographer was taking pictures, until finally I became indignant, and said, "I have had it. Now, find out what accommodations you can make for us, for my daughter-in-law and I so that we can be in Dallas to help Lee, and let me know in the morning."

So they left.

However, about an hour later there was a telephone call to Mrs. Paine from a Life representative. I know by her conversation who she was talking to.

Mr. Rankin. Who was that?

Mrs. Oswald. One of the men—either Allen Grant or Tommy Thompson.

And after the conversation, I said to her, "Was that one of the Life representatives?"

And she said, "Oh, yes, he just was a little upset about what happened."

So I got no information there.

The Chairman. Would you like to take a short recess, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I am getting thirsty.

The Chairman. Suppose we do. We will take one for about 10 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may continue with your statement.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. Now, we are in Mrs. Paine's home yet.

The Chairman. Yes. This is on the day of the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir—the 22d, Friday, the 22d.

I am worried because Lee hasn't had an attorney. And I am talking about that, and Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, don't worry about that. I am a member of the Civil Liberties Union, and Lee will have an attorney, I can assure you."

I said to myself but when? Of course, I didn't want to push her, argue with her. But the point was if she was a member of the Union, why didn't she see Lee had an attorney then. So I wasn't too happy about that.

Now, gentlemen, this is some very important facts.

My daughter-in-law spoke to Mrs. Paine in Russian. "Mamma," she says. So she takes me into the bedroom and closes the door. She said, "Mamma, I show you." She opened the closet, and in the closet was a lot of books and papers. And she came out with a picture—a picture of Lee, with a gun.

It said, "To my daughter June"—written in English.

I said, "Oh, Marina, police." I didn't think anything of the picture.

Now, you must understand that I don't know what is going on on television—I came from the jailhouse and everything, so I don't know all the circumstances, what evidence they had against my son by this time. I had no way of knowing. But I say to my daughter, "To my daughter, June," anybody can own a rifle, to go hunting. You yourself probably have a rifle. So I am not connecting this with the assassination—"To my daughter, June." Because I would immediately say, and I remember—I think my son is an agent all the time—no one is going to be foolish enough if they mean to assassinate the President, or even murder someone to take a picture of themselves with that rifle, and leave that there for evidence.

So, I didn't think a thing about it. And it says "To my daughter, June." I said, "The police," meaning that if the police got that, they would use that against my son, which would be a natural way to think.

She says, "You take, Mamma."

I said, "No."

"Yes, Mamma, you take."

I said, "No, Marina. Put back in the book." So she put the picture back in the book. Which book it was, I do not know.

So the next day, when we are at the courthouse—this is on Saturday—she—we were sitting down, waiting to see Lee. She puts her shoe down, she says, "Mamma, picture." She had the picture folded up in her shoe.

Now, I did not see that it was the picture, but I know that it was, because she told me it was, and I could see it was folded up. It wasn't open for me to see. I said, "Marina." Just like that. So Robert came along and he says, "Robert" I said, "No, no Marina." I didn't want her to tell Robert about the picture. Right there, you know. That was about the picture.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever tell her to destroy the picture?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Now, I have to go into this. I want to tell you about destroying the picture.

Now, that was in Mrs. Paine's home.

I want to start to remember—because when we leave Mrs. Paine's home, we go into another phase, where the picture comes in again. So I have to tell the—unless you want to ask me specific questions.

Mr. Rankin. No, you go right ahead.

Mrs. Oswald. Mrs. Paine, in front of me, gave Marina $10. Now, Mrs. Paine, when I said, after the representatives left—I said, "You know, I do want to get paid for the story, because I am destitute, and here is a girl with—her husband is going to be in jail, we will need money for attorneys, with two babies."

She said, "You don't have to worry about Marina. Marina will always have a home with me, because Marina helps."

Now, Mrs. Paine speaks Russian fluently. "She helps me with my Russian language. She babysits for me and helps me with the housework, and you never have to worry about Marina. She will always have a home with me."

Now, Mr. and Mrs. Paine are separated. Mr. Paine does not live here. So it is just the two women.

So, Mrs. Paine didn't graciously do anything for Marina, as the paper stated—that Lee never did pay Mrs. Paine for room or board. Mrs. Paine owes them money. That is almost the kind of work that I do, or the airline stewardesses do, serve food and everything. Marina was earning her keep, and really should have had a salary for it—what I am trying to say, gentlemen, Mrs. Paine had Marina there to help babysit with the children, with her children—if she wanted to go running around and everything.

So actually she wasn't doing my son or Marina the favor that she claims she was doing.

But the point I am trying to stress is that she did tell me Marina would never have to worry, because Marina would have a home with her.

At this particular moment, I cannot remember anything of importance in the house. Otherwise, about the picture I have stated. And Mrs. Paine with the Life representative, and her saying that Lee would have an attorney, and Mrs. Paine giving Marina a $10 bill.

Oh, Marina told me, "Mamma, I have this money." It was money in an envelope—in the bedroom, when she showed me the picture. I said, "How much money, Marina."

"About how much?" I asked her.

"About $100 and some."

Now, Mrs. Paine has stated to the Life representative that Lee and Marina were saving his pay in order to have a home for themselves for Christmas time, because they had never been in a home of their own at Christmas time—in order to celebrate Christmas. So, the hundred and some odd dollars isn't a big sum, considering that Lee paid $8 a week room in Dallas—and it has been stated by the landlady that Lee ate lunchmeat or fruit. And Lee was very, very thin when I saw him. And Lee gave his salary to his wife in order to save to have this home for Christmas.

So, that is not a lot of money to have in the house—I would not think so, because I believe Lee was earning about $50 a week. And let's say he could live for about $10 or $12. And he gave the rest of the money to his wife.

And so I reported this money to the Secret Service while we were in Six Flags—that Marina had the money. I wanted them to know. She showed me the money.

I cannot think now—I did think of the money after going back—but I cannot think of anything at this particular moment that would be of any benefit that happened in this house.

Mr. Rankin. In regard to the photograph, I will show you some photographs. Maybe you can tell me whether they are the ones that you are referring to. Here is Commission's Exhibit 134.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, that is not the picture.

Mr. Rankin. And 133, consists of two different pictures.

Mrs. Oswald.. No, sir, that is not the picture. He was holding the rifle up, and it said, "To my daughter, June, with love." He was holding the rifle up.

Mr. Rankin. By holding it up, you mean——

Mrs. Oswald.. Like this.

Mr. Rankin. Crosswise, with both hands on the rifle?

Mrs. Oswald.. With both hands on the rifle.

Mr. Rankin. Above his head?

Mrs. Oswald. That is right.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see these pictures, Exhibits 133 and 134?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I have never seen those pictures.

Mr. Rankin. Now, you were going to tell us about some further discussion of the picture you did see?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—all right.

Now, so the next morning the two representatives of the Life Magazine, Mr. Allen Grant and Mr. Tommy Thompson come by at 9 o'clock with a woman, Russian interpreter, a doctor somebody. I have not been able to find this woman. I have called the universities, thinking that she was a language teacher, and I—maybe you have her name. But she is very, very important to our story.

And I do want to locate her, if possible.

During the night, I had decided I was going to take up their offer, because I would be besieged by reporters and everything. So why not go with the Life representatives, and let them pay my room and board and my daughter-in-law's. They came by at 9 o'clock, without calling, with this Russian interpreter. So Marina was getting dressed and getting the children dressed. He was taking pictures all the time.

Mr. Rankin. They came by where?

Mrs. Oswald. Mrs. Paine's home. And there was no hurry, though, to leave the home, because Mrs. Paine was most anxious for the Life representatives to talk to her and get these pictures and everything—whether Marina has any part in this I don't know, because they spoke Russian, and she didn't tell me about it. But I know Mrs. Paine did.

We left with the two Life representatives. They brought us to the Hotel Adolphus in Dallas. I immediately upon entering the hotel picked up the phone and called Captain Will Fritz, to see if Marina and I could see Lee at the jailhouse.

Mr. Rankin. Who is he?

Mrs. Oswald. He is one of the big men in Dallas on this case.

Mr. Rankin. The Chief of Detectives, or something like that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And I called him from the hotel, and the man that answered the phone said he would relay my message to him, that I wanted to see if Marina and I could see Lee. I waited on the phone. He came back and said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, Captain Fritz said you may see Lee at 12 o'clock today."

We arrived at the Adolphus Hotel between 9:30 and 10:00.

Mr. Rankin. This was what day?

Mrs. Oswald. This was Saturday, November 23, the morning of Saturday, November 23.

While we were there, an FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum entered the room with another agent, and wanted Marina to accompany him to be questioned.

Mr. Rankin. Were these FBI agents?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir; Mr. Hart Odum is an FBI agent. And I said, "No, we are going to see Lee." We were all eating breakfast when he came in. I said, "No, we have been promised to see Lee. She is not going with you."

So he said, "Well, will you tell Mrs. Oswald, please"—to the interpreter, "I would like to question her and I would like her to come with me to be questioned."

I said, "It is no good. You don't need to tell the interpreter that, because my daughter-in-law is not going with you. We have been promised to see Lee. And besides Marina has testified, made her statement at the courthouse yesterday, and any further statements that Marina will make will be through counsel."

Mr. Odum said to the interpreter, "Mrs. Oswald"—to the interpreter—"will you tell Mrs. Oswald to decide what she would like to do and not listen to her mother-in-law."

I said, "It is no good to tell my daughter-in-law, because my daughter-in-law is not leaving here with you, Mr. Odum, without counsel."

And I had been telling Marina, "No, no."

She said, "I do, Mamma," she kept saying.

Just then my son, Robert, entered the room, and Mr. Odum said, "Robert, we would like to take Marina and question her."

He said, "No, I am sorry, we are going to try to get lawyers for both she and Lee."

So he left.

We went to the courthouse and we sat and sat, and while at the courthouse my son, Robert, was being interviewed by—I don't know whether it was Secret Service or FBI agents—in a glass enclosure. We were sitting—an office, a glass enclosed office. We were sitting on the bench right there.

Mr. Rankin. Where was this?

Mrs. Oswald. In the Dallas courthouse, on Saturday.

So we waited quite a while. One of the men came by and said "I am sorry that we are going to be delayed in letting you see Lee, but we have picked up another suspect."

I said, to Marina, "Oh, Marina, good, another man they think maybe shoot Kennedy."

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask anything about who this suspect was?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. He just give the information why we would be delayed. We sat out there quite a while. The police were very nice. They helped us about the baby. We went into another room for privacy, for Marina to nurse Rachel. It was 2 or 3 hours before we got to see Lee. We went upstairs and were allowed to see Lee. This was in the jail—the same place I had been from the very beginning, and we were taken upstairs. And by the way, they only issued a pass for Marina and myself, and not for Robert. And Robert was very put out, because he thought he was also going to see his brother. Whether Robert saw his brother or not, I do not know, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. Rankin. About what time of day was this?

Mrs. Oswald. Just a minute now. We arrived there at 12 o'clock. This would be about 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon, before we got to see Lee.