Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED (continued 3)

I might add nor myself by the FBI agents.

And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI agents, had you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Dulles. I think that is indicated in your diary.

Mr. Jenner. I will touch on that subject in due course.

But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your mother. Do you have any—do you know why the FBI did not interview your mother?

Mr. Oswald. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November 26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday.

And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And did they do so?

Mr. Oswald. They did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did they interview your mother?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did they interview you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.

If I may, sir—in reply to your question whether or not they interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to interview her at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an interpreter present?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.

Mr. Jenner. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe the circumstances and what occurred?

Mr. Oswald. When the FBI agents arrived there—I can identify one of them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr. Browns that I have met in the FBI—I do not know his initials—the other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.

Mr. Jenner. When?

Mr. Oswald. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. This came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the FBI agents on this particular day.

Mr. Jenner. Through what source?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory—through Mr. Lee Gopadze, who acted as an interpreter.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present when you were afforded that information?

Mr. Oswald. I believe she was, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the FBI agent on this occasion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. And she expressed that aversion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. Was the reason given in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. That she did not——

Mr. Jenner. Was it—yes or no?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By whom; Mr. Gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting Marina?

Mr. Oswald. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after their departure.

Mr. Jenner. Yes—but through what source did you obtain it?

Mr. Oswald. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.

And other Secret Service agents.

Mr. Jenner. And what did he say as to her aversion?

Mr. Oswald. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.

Mr. Jenner. In the home?

Mr. Oswald. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took place on the inside—but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least.

Mr. Dulles. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 22, 1963, was it not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one agent—not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman that I do not recall his name—she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start—I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Harsh towards Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting——

Mr. Jenner. In your presence?

Mr. Oswald. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there—if I might state—with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.—we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps—I say, again, I am implying—in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.

I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that I realized there was some friction here between the United States Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before the FBI arrived at the location.

Mr. Jenner. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to know that they had taped an interview with Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was his response?

Mr. Oswald. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do."

I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of tone it down—if they were going to get anything out of her, they would not get it that way.

And he said he would speak to her.

Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on the telephone.

I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out.

Mr. Jenner. By the FBI agents?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. To Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. They spoke English?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was the interpreter whom you named—was he participating?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman, not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mr. Oswald. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for the second time that he please say something to them about that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the tape recording at this time.

And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say."

Mr. Jenner. And did you?

Mr. Oswald. I certainly did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say? You went over to the agent?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, who was sitting at the end of the coffee table—it was a large round coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so much about—anything about the tape recording. I did say to him—and I was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that—that I resented the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her apparent uncooperative attitude.

Mr. Jenner. Supposed, you mean?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and highly cooperative.

And I returned to my chair at the table.

They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald at that time, at which time Mr. Brown—he left the immediate area of interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me.

I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on what had transpired out there prior to their arrival.

As the other gentlemen arose——

Mr. Jenner. Transpired where, prior to their arrival?

Mr. Oswald. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of the FBI agents.

And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of me—he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown."

Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned to him to cut it off right here.

Mr. Brown left and went outside with him.

About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert Oswald—he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown asked me if—it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and I said this was so.

Mr. Jenner. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed.

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply, I believe, verbatim would be—my answer to that question, sir, is yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been mentioned?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By Mr. Brown?

Mr. Oswald. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the end of that incident?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which now has been identified and admitted in the record?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you had no other source?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect to supplying funds—either her doing so or your doing so—to your brother Lee when he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting that——

Mr. Jenner. This is while he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in Crowell, Texas.

Mr. Jenner. She wrote you a note?

Mr. Oswald. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle everything, and that she was demanding—and that was the word she used in the letter—that I do so.

Mr. Jenner. That you do what?

Mr. Oswald. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to forward to Lee.

This I did not do, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you respond to that letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that letter, did you have any—well, in addition to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, she did not.

Mr. Jenner. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he had borrowed from the State Department?

Mr. Oswald. I did not assist him in any way, sir.

Mr. Dulles. He did not request it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss that subject with him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And did he so express himself?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you offer to help him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And he refused?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At any time—let us confine it first to the period that your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from Russia—did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for Marina?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that month that he was at your home?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion—obviously, you did—to observe the relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in their—as husband and wife?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did observe that.

Mr. Jenner. And would you please state what you observed in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice to Marina—not understanding what was being said—but by the general tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful.

Mr. Jenner. Inconsiderate?

Mr. Oswald. Sir?

Mr. Jenner. Inconsiderate?

Mr. Oswald. Inconsiderate.

Mr. Jenner. Of her?

Mr. Oswald. Of her—some little thing she might want to do. I say some little thing—something that she was going to do there at the house or something, or was doing—I don't recall any specific incident.

Mr. Dulles. Do you recall her reaction?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Dulles. What was it?

Mr. Oswald. It was usually silence.

Mr. Jenner. Usually what, sir?

Mr. Oswald. Silence.

Mr. Jenner. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her?

Mr. Oswald. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing to her to be perhaps reprimanded.

Mr. Jenner. In the presence of somebody else?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal course.

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate—both of them appeared to be—and I believe this still to be so—very affectionate to the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during this period of time, up to and including August of 19—Thanksgiving Day 1962—it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct—I don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Any kind or character, at any time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his having physically harmed her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Jenner. The subject was never discussed in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. By anyone?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November 23, 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some physical harm on your sister-in-law?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though a black eye had been inflicted upon her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Or any other physical injury?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, has stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could understand English and could read English—let's confine it to the period up to and including November 22, 1963.

What is your opinion on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit further, that her understanding of the English language is less than what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my attention since her visit to Washington.

Mr. Jenner. You mean since she appeared before the Commission?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any extent—perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience with my children, approximately a three or four year old—if that much.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak in terms of reading or understanding or speaking?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

I might further qualify that, sir—that she could perhaps speak more English words than she can read or understand.

Mr. Jenner. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater extent than, to use the vernacular—than she lets on?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned to you at any time any—or asserted any claims on her part, that there were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone else, that would be relevant to this matter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. Dulles. Has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom they were intended as between herself and Marina?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia, was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is, apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. None, sir, that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mr. Oswald. None.

Mr. Jenner. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she ever discuss it in your presence, or with you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; at no time has she.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it.

Mr. Jenner. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including November 23, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from previous questions that you have no knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of 1963?

Mr. Oswald. Christmas of 1963, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. I am sorry—I misinterpreted that.

Christmas of 1963—Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas, Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Did you remain over to Christmas Day?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were there?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she was invited to attend?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending there on Christmas Eve, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded.

Mr. Jenner. Then you do not—all right.

Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, I would refer to my prior testimony on that.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate upon that?

Mr. Oswald. Perhaps one thing, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a phone call that she had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas, while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home. And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what was said that night.

Mr. Jenner. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mr. Oswald. And I might add, sir—I don't believe I stated this. I, of course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's residence.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir.

You have testified to ownership of rifles.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And do you still own a rifle?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you own and possess a rifle—I will withdraw that.

Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they have not.

Mr. Jenner. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie—I have a question here dealing with the nature of Marina's contract—if there is still one between Robert, Marina, and Thorne.

Do we have that contract?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit number.

And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas, Tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas. Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of $100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr. Thorne.

I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina Oswald.

And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance Committee of the Dallas Bar Association.

Mr. Jenner. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an agreement between, or a contract between Marina on the one hand and Robert Martin and Thorne on the other.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the record, and have been produced.

And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me.

And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs. Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to represent her as a retainer.

Mr. Jenner. And you do represent her?

Mr. McKenzie. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit of herself or her children, nor would I accept same.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a written contract with her?

Mr. McKenzie. I have no written contract with her.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent that she is able to use and understand it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French.

Mr. Jenner. And that is the extent of your information on the subject?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How do you know that she knows a little French?

Mr. Oswald. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.——

Mr. Jenner. How recent was that? Just a few days ago?

Mr. Oswald. Within the past 10 days to two weeks—I believe this was brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French vocabulary of parlez vouz Français, or something, and she replied to that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five other words, and she said that was about all of it.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man or men?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. Jenner. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject ever take place in your presence by anybody?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian emigré group? I will omit those you have already identified.

George Bouhe?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever heard of that name?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Teofil Meller?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Elena Hall?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Frank H. Ray?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. Jenner. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime of your brother Lee?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. You became acquainted with that name, with that person, subsequent to his death?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I am.

Mr. Jenner. What were the circumstances, and when?

Mr. Oswald. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray—and I feel like this is the same one—was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own child. And I had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab.

Mr. Jenner. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your brother Lee in public?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with respect to your brother's sexual power?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina ever discussed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife, Vada?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's lifetime, ever hear any discussion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. On that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d.

What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald—if what you have written in your memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that—that may satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made.

Mr. Oswald. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police station?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. On the night of November 22, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Is there anything——

Mr. Jenner. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th.

Mr. McKenzie. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary?

Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript?

Mr. Dulles. I think it would be useful to do that.

Mr. Jenner. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask Mr. Oswald a few things.

Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the President first came to your attention, where you were, where you proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout the course of the day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And all of your conversations and your contacts with anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I believe I do.

Mr. Jenner. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to the City Jail?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And is that likewise true—that is a detailed recording of the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of November?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would wish also to join in and put to you.

Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it—is there anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in your notebook?

Mr. Oswald. Well——

Mr. Jenner. That is that you might have been stimulated during the course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did not recall at the time you made those entries?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir—not to the entries or material that is already in here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at the Inn of the Six Flags—and possibly other events that has occurred to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed it necessary.

Mr. Jenner. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir, we shall.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and during that week.

Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness?

Mr. Dulles. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it again and I will do that. But, at this time—it seemed to me, as I read it, to cover the area you have indicated.

I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I had not had the diary available.

Mr. Jenner. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but not with a view in mind of asking additional questions.

Mr. Dulles. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the Commission.

Do you wish to—it has been introduced in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. It is in the record.

Mr. Dulles. But do you wish it put in this record?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate—to take the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will forward the tape to us.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have so agreed.

Mr. Dulles. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have?

Mr. Oswald. I will certainly do so, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the attorneys representing or working with the Commission see fit to be in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at any time.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always have to reserve that for the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which we would like your testimony.

For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those events recorded in the memorandum?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. McKenzie. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would likewise add that to the memorandum.

Mr. Dulles. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323 describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at this point.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in New Orleans since November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. I have not.

Mr. Jenner. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine?

Mr. Oswald. The cause of that split, sir——

Mr. Jenner. What knowledge do you have of the split, first?

Mr. Oswald. Full knowledge of the split, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Will you tell us about it? What led to it and——

Mr. Oswald. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. When did you give that advice and make that request?

Mr. Oswald. At the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. Jenner. Was this the same occasion about which you have already testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the Paines?

Mr. Oswald. This was the first occasion, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter.

Am I correct?

Mr. Oswald. Not fully, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Will you please explain?

Mr. Oswald. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting that she contact Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. What was the date?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately December 20 or December 21.

Mr. Jenner. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had written her, Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Asking Marina to do what?

Mr. Oswald. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my opinion for her to call her on the phone.

I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her letters and to my knowledge this request has been done.

Mr. McKenzie. To the best of your knowledge, is that right?

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no contact whatever with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her, Marina?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. May I ask a question right there, please?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or Mrs. Paine is concerned?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of any such contact?

Mr. Oswald. I am not aware of any such contact.

Mr. McKenzie. All right, sir. Proceed.

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with Elena Hall at that time?

Mr. Oswald. October, 1962, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. One moment, please.

No, sir. I was not aware of that.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the month of October, 1962?

Mr. Oswald. Only to the city in which he was living.

Mr. Jenner. And what city was that?

Mr. Oswald. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs. Hall?

Mr. Jenner. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, they were not.

Mr. Jenner. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you supposed, somewhere in Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

If I might make one correction, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner, All right, with the exception of that.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal correspondence you receive from others?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. Jenner. I think you have explained why you retained the particular correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother while he was in Russia.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And after he returned you received some correspondence and you retained that as well.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you?

Mr. Oswald. You are referring to the period in 1959?

Mr. Jenner. I am.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Jenner. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir?

Mr. McKenzie. Are you asking about his return to the United States or his going to Russia?

Mr. Jenner. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of attitude.

Mr. Oswald. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to the United States from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959, and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a surprise to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me.

Mr. Jenner. Would you explain both of your answers.

Mr. Oswald. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he would change his mind and return to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to the United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans.

Mr. Oswald. I beg your pardon, sir?

Mr. Jenner. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you seeking that May letter?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to the letter of May 22, 1962?

Mr. Jenner. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, projected return, to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. Jenner. What does it say, please?

Mr. Oswald. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S. Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so."

Mr. Jenner. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England and then went directly to the United States.

Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America probably in New Orleans."

Mr. Jenner. He actually arrived in New York City.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Or by him in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Or by Marina?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. With you or in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you related, during the course of the day and yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United States in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27, 1960.

Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score?

Mr. Oswald. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our interview or our conversation.

Mr. Jenner. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1960. I have given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960.

Mr. Oswald. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on the 18th of April, 1960.

I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30 days later.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to you as being the gentleman who interviewed you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject matter, first.

Mr. Oswald. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was put.

Mr. Jenner. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of your brother's defection?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my remembrance, sir.

Mr. Dulles. By subject matter, do you mean reason?

Mr. Jenner. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might have known about his defection.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not believe he did.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't discuss that. According to your recollection, there was no discussion of that subject?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted by any Soviet officials discussed?

Mr. Oswald. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In case any——

Mr. Jenner. Any representative.

Mr. Oswald. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care of myself or if I had time report it to his attention.

Mr. Jenner. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you agreed to do that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.

Mr. Dulles. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since that date?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. I think we will get to that.

Mr. Dulles. Are they pertinent?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed.

Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any such people for any item of personal identification of your brother discussed with Mr. Fain.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not recall that it was.

Mr. Jenner. You have no present recollection of that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. This is not—trying not to be repetitious but the author of this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect.

Mr. Dulles. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by personal identification?

Mr. Jenner. Some item of personal identification.

Mr. McKenzie. Marks identifying.

Mr. Dulles. Wound or anything of that sort?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Physical marks really.

Mr. Jenner. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee.

Mr. Oswald. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an earlier date.

Mr. Jenner. That is his right ear, was it not?

Mr. Oswald. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such an inquiry had been made of you?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of this inquiry.

Mr. Jenner. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on his body?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three months after your brother returned—no, he is still in Russia.

Mr. Dulles. He is still in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr. Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. Oswald. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation?

Mr. Jenner. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr. Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. Oswald. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. By way of a telephone call?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by telephone?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the Russians.

Mr. Oswald. This was in September 1961, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny it.

Mr. Jenner. It is possible that you made that statement?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on that date or approximately that date?

Mr. Oswald. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around that date, and also by telephone.

Mr. Jenner. Did she report both occasions to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said to you and where and what the circumstances were?

Mr. Oswald. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she acknowledged that Mr. Fain——

Mr. Jenner. Did she tell you that, sir?

Mr. Oswald. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired——

Mr. Jenner. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada?

Mr. Oswald. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end.

Mr. Dulles. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than you; were you away at that time, away on business or what?

Mr. Oswald. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer whether or not we had heard from him recently.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr Jenner. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the FBI as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not recall that.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall her reporting that to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Jenner. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September, 1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in any event, did you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge of it.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection then there was no discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts?

In other words, approximately five weeks later?

Mr. Oswald. The date was June 26, 1962, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Oswald. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that subject and did she make a report to you of any kind?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr. Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex., and requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview.

This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it.

Mr. Dulles. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of your brother's arrival in the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, there was not.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion on that subject at all?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, not at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort Worth and were living with you and with her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not state that to me.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give again the full conversation?

Mr. Oswald. On that date of June 26, 1962?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada.

Mr. McKenzie. To the best of your recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex. I would not say this was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there.

If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent, and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job.

Mr. Jenner. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said nothing that she had advised the FBI that—she had discussed with Mr. Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's return.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I was leaving the office to go to lunch that day.

The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired——

Mr. Jenner. He identified himself as Mr. Fain?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least by that time?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, I had.

Mr. Jenner. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that time as that of Mr. Fain?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. Oswald. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I gave him this location.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please tell me what you said to him?

Mr. Oswald. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks from West 7th Street.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we thank you.

However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can——

Mr. Dulles. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours.

Mr. McKenzie. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked, and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning.

And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do know that you have plans and if we can meet——

Mr. Dulles. We will have to do it tomorrow.

Mr. McKenzie. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the Commission's——

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Dulles. 9:30 tomorrow morning.

And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water.

(Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)