Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED (continued 2)

Mr. Jenner. Give the date of the letter.

There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961.

Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961?

Mr. Oswald. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299.

Mr. Oswald. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not, because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted with the Russian way of life.

Mr. Jenner. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to Minsk, is it not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the first letter you received following the undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was received on the 17th of December, 1959.

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your impression of suspicion that he was becoming—either was completely or was becoming, disenchanted with Russia.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was then——

Mr. Jenner. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May 5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which he expressly stated——

Mr. McKenzie. Disenchantment.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will now undertake to investigate that circumstance.

Mr. McKenzie. Would you like for me to tell you which ones?

Mr. Jenner. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit numbers.

Mr. McKenzie. It is June 26, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300.

Mr. McKenzie. August 21, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. Is the envelope dated August 21?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes, August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303.

You need not do it.

Mr. McKenzie. And September 10, 1961.

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305.

Mr. McKenzie. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means.

Mr. Dulles. That is French.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's ability to speak or understand English at the time that she and your brother returned from Russia in June of 1962?

Mr. Oswald. Her ability to understand was far less than her ability to speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June 13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no answer, and Lee took the telephone over again.

Mr. Jenner. During the month they lived in your home, were you better able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand English?

Mr. Oswald. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all.

Mr. Jenner. As to her facility in that regard—did her facility in that regard become better as the months and years wore on?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with you, respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex., to Dallas, Tex., in the winter of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her desires in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect either pro or con.

Mr. Jenner. You have no impressions on the subject either way?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I might have an impression, pardon me, that he wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English.

Mr. Jenner. That was expressed in your presence during that period of time by him?

Mr. Oswald. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that time or as soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number of occasions during the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., that my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would establish her age at 4 years old, would talk to her and it appeared that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults in the family.

Mr. Jenner. Did the State Department or any agency of the United States, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did any agency of the United States or any public body located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, they did.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that you identified yesterday?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it was.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football.

Did you send the football to him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not received any letter with "certain" questions. Apparently questions that you had put to him.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have that letter?

Mr. Oswald. The letter of July 14?

Mr. Jenner. No, this is December 14.

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me.

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have the letter.

Mr. Jenner. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you had written him prior thereto?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. Jenner. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in response to an earlier letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, it was not in response—it was a response to an earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not all my letters——

Mr. Jenner. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961, Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309.

Mr. Oswald. In reference to the question regarding that letter of December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any letter with 'certain' questions."

I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political type questions to see whether or not he would receive——

Mr. Jenner. He would respond?

Mr. Oswald. Sir?

Mr. Jenner. To see whether he would respond, did you say?

Mr. Oswald. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself.

Mr. Jenner. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive.

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my own way whether this was so or not.

I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through rather than be destroyed or not received by him.

Mr. Jenner. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received your letter.

Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that matter.

Mr. Jenner. When was that? Where was it?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Who was present?

Mr. Oswald. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room which was the living room of our home.

Mr. Jenner. In your home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Oswald. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an honorable discharge.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say?

Mr. Oswald. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in writing the Marine Corps office directly on behalf of him. I do not recall if he made this trip to the Marine Corps office. I do not recall any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge.

Mr. Jenner. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of May 22, 1962, shortly before he returned to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 318.

As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion?

Mr. McKenzie. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner?

Please, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. Certainly, proceed.

Mr. McKenzie. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull them out of your file there I will—do you want to take the originals?

Mr. Jenner. That will be the best way of doing it.

Mr. McKenzie. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit number. I have no objection.

I will find out who I should see about making these.

Mr. Jenner. Why do you not make them on the Xerox machine?

I had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the matter in context.

Mr. Oswald. "I know what was said about me when I left the United States as Mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. However, I realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those things. However, I will just remind you again not to make any statement or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the time we actually arrive in the United States."

Mr. Jenner. Is he referring then to things that were reported in the newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something you said to him before he departed for Russia, or is he referring to something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in Russia?

Mr. Oswald. He is referring, sir, to the clippings of newspapers that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the newspapers at the time we were advised on October 31, 1959 that Lee was in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the United States?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And did those come to your brother's attention?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss them or he with you?

Mr. Oswald. When the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his arrival in New York City, I did not divulge my knowledge of his departure as per this letter of May 22, 1962, the approximate date he would be in the United States. I did not give them any indication whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever respond to that particular letter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask a question here?

You indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at Love Airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came back from Russia.

Did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or elsewhere?

Mr. Oswald. They attempted to, sir. I say "they." It was, more specifically, one newspaperman.

Mr. Jenner. But he did not succeed in getting an interview?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Reference is made in your brother's letter to you of November 17, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit 320, to Thanksgiving dinner. Would you obtain that exhibit, please?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. Dulles. What Thanksgiving, 1962?

Mr. Jenner. 1962, sir.

Was the Thanksgiving dinner held at your home on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding, leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. Oswald. Lee and Marina and their small child had moved to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Where in Dallas, Tex.? Do you recall?

Mr. Oswald. I did not have any address, sir. I had only a post office box, Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. My older brother John had called me from San Antonio, Tex., prior to Thanksgiving 1962, indicating that he was going to be able to take a leave——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Chairman, there is some confusion respecting this Thanksgiving dinner.

Mr. Oswald. Where John was stationed in the Air Force—he called me from San Antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during the period of Thanksgiving of November 1962 and that they would travel from San Antonio, Tex., to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. I wrote Lee and asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his family.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate in your letter that his brother John and wife were to join you on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your mother, was also to join you on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. In reference to the letter dated November 17, 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald——

Mr. Jenner. That is Commission Exhibit 320.

Mr. Oswald. It replied to my letter: "In answer to your kind invitation for Thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in Fort Worth Thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on the phone from the bus station (about 9:10). See you soon. Lee."

Mr. Jenner. Did he come to Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. For that particular occasion?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did he arrive?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. Of Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. Jenner. Who?

Mr. Oswald. Marina N. Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Did all of you have Thanksgiving dinner on that day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. Jenner. Did both Lee and Marina attend that dinner?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. Jenner. And John Pic and his wife?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. Jenner. You and your wife?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your children?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The children of Lee and Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. The child. There was only one at that time.

Mr. Jenner. That is right, the child June. Anyone else?

Mr. Oswald. The children of John and Marge Pic.

Mr. Jenner. But your mother did not attend the dinner?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had you invited her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know, she was unaware of it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was any comment made that she was not present, about the fact that she was not present at the dinner?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about what your brother Lee was doing by way of employment in Dallas?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. Jenner. What was said, and by whom?

Mr. Oswald. I feel like I had asked Lee what he was doing at that particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a traffic outfit in Dallas, the name of which I do not recall. However, he did state the name of the firm. I do not recall the name of the firm. And that it was to him very interesting work. He thought that he could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably.

Mr. Dulles. How did he appear to you mentally and physically on this occasion of the Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. Oswald. Very fit physically and very alert mentally.

Mr. Jenner. Discussion on that day occurred between you and your half-brother, John Pic, did it not, respecting your brother Lee's un-American beliefs?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Jenner. Would you relate that discussion between yourself—was it confined to a discussion between yourself and John Pic?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Did you raise the subject?

Mr. Oswald. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were concerned about his un-American beliefs, were you not?

Mr. Oswald. I was not concerned about them. I wanted to state to John, since he had not been in contact with Lee when Lee was in Russia, or when he was at my home in Fort Worth, that this conversation took place.

Mr. Jenner. You state it.

Mr. Dulles. Was John present?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. He was present.

Mr. McKenzie. It was to John.

Mr. Dulles. Was he present?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was not. I was about to say that this conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to pick up Lee, Marina and June the morning of Thanksgiving 1962. I do not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why I brought it up other than I do recall mentioning that the FBI had talked to Lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not holding him for any reason, so I assumed that everything was all right in that respect.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Dulles. How did you know that the FBI had talked with Lee?

Mr. Oswald. Lee had told me and I was aware that they had called my house and requested Lee to come down to their office in Fort Worth and talk with them.

Mr. Dulles. Did he report to you on that conversation at all? The details of it?

Mr. Oswald. A very small detail of it, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What details?

Mr. Oswald. I asked him when I returned home from work that afternoon how did it go. He said, "Just fine." He said they asked him at the last whether or not he was an agent for the United States Government. His reply was "Don't you know?"

Mr. Jenner. You recited that yesterday.

Mr. McKenzie. This was testified to yesterday. It is repetition.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you at that time say to John that the FBI had—excuse me—had assured you that Lee was all right and not dangerous to our country?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say to John on that occasion or any other occasion that he need not worry about Lee in connection with possible danger to our country?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mr. Oswald. This was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus station as I have so indicated, that I had assumed, since they were not holding Lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything as far as un-American views that he expressed when he went to Russia, everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect him of anything.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know about the Fair Play for Cuba incident in New Orleans at this time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Lee and Marina leave your home after Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. Jenner. That same day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from that moment when he departed until sometime on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you one more time?

In response to your question, Mr. Chairman, it is my best recollection, and I may be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that the Fair Play for Cuba or the pro-Castro leaflets that he was handing out in New Orleans was in the summer of 1963.

Mr. Dulles. I think you may be right.

Do you remember that?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Dulles. That is correct. It had not taken place.

Mr. McKenzie. It had not taken place in November of 1962.

Mr. Dulles. Right.

Mr. McKenzie. To the best of our knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Did the witness have any opportunity to respond to my last question?

Mr. McKenzie. You had finished your question and I interrupted you before you could make another question.

Mr. Jenner. You mean the witness had responded to it?

Mr. Dulles. No; I do not think he had.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read the pending question?

(The last question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Marina at any time subsequent to their departure on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 and November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Dulles. Did you have any telephone conversations with either of them?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. Jenner. In the interim period?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. Jenner. Were there a number of those or were they infrequent?

Mr. Oswald. I recall only one, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did that take place?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately two or three weeks after Thanksgiving of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. That would be sometime then in December of 1962?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you call him or did he call you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he called me.

Mr. Jenner. You recognized his voice?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And was it day or night?

Mr. Oswald. It was, I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Sunday afternoon. And what was the occasion of his making that call as you recall it?

Mr. Oswald. That he was in town briefly.

Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?

Mr. Oswald. In Fort Worth, Tex., and that I asked would we see him; he said no, they were visiting some friends.

Mr. Jenner. "They" meaning he and Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, and that they would be leaving for Dallas very shortly.

Mr. Jenner. That was a social call?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You have given the full of the conversation?

Mr. Oswald. To the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. It was very short.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to talk to Marina over the telephone on that particular time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did he talk with any other member of your family on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that telephone conversation, had you had any other conversation with your brother Lee from the time on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 to the time you saw him on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. I did not see him on November——

Mr. McKenzie. He did not see him on that day.

Mr. Oswald. On November 22, 1963.

Mr. McKenzie. He saw him on November 23, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Then my question is November 23.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not had any conversation with him after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day, other than the one I have mentioned, up to the time of November 22, 1963.

Mr. Dulles. Did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that period?

Mr. Oswald. Only through the mail, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to come to that.

Did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you received from him is concerned?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKenzie. And that has previously been furnished to the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. It has previously been furnished and it is, I see, a postcard which is dated as I recall—you give the date.

Mr. Oswald. We are still referring to the period after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, we are.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir.

One postcard dated January 10, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And that is Commission Exhibit 324.

Did you receive any other correspondence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And do you have it there?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. And it is a letter dated?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What date?

Mr. Oswald. March 16, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And that is Commission Exhibit 322.

Did you receive any other correspondence from him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you dispatch any to him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. Jenner. Did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you have now identified?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. That is, neither Exhibit 322 nor Exhibit 324 was in response to any communication that you had dispatched to him?

Mr. Oswald. Pardon me, sir, I was incorrect on that.

The letter of March 16, 1963 was in response to a letter I had written him approximately the first week of March 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? And if you made one, did you retain a copy?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; no copy was made and I did not retain it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you state the contents of your letter?

Mr. Oswald. It was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to Malvern, Ark. I informed him of my new address and advised him that I had placed my home in Fort Worth, Tex., up for sale, and I had been given an opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that I had taken this opportunity and moved to Malvern, Ark. and requested, if possible, we would like to have them visit us.

Mr. Dulles. When did you move to Malvern, approximately?

Mr. Oswald. The fifth day of March 1963, sir.

Mr. Dulles. And how long were you there?

Mr. Oswald. To September 13, 1963, sir.

Mr. Dulles. And then you returned to——

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. Then I moved to Denton, Tex.

Mr. Dulles. Denton, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So that at the time of the event, November 22, 1963, you were residing in Malvern, Tex.?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was residing in Denton, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. I should have said Malvern, Ark., anyhow.

Mr. Dulles. Let's see, you were then in Malvern, Ark., from March 1963, to approximately September 1963?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. That is where I misunderstood. I thought he said December.

All right, sir. I take it then at least from Thanksgiving Day, 1962, and the 23d day of November, 1963, you never had any discussions with Robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to Russia, with Lee rather?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or with Marina or she with you on her return to Russia, whether he desired it or she did?

Mr. Oswald. During that period?

Mr. Jenner. Prior to November 23, 1963.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did that discussion that you now have in mind take place?

Mr. Oswald. At my home in June of 1962, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Who was present?

Mr. Oswald. My wife Vada and Lee.

Mr. Jenner. With Marina I take it?

Mr. Oswald. And Marina was there.

Yes, sir; I was having a conversation or she was having something of a conversation with me.

Mr. Jenner. Before you give the conversation, was there ever any other occasion up to and including November 23, 1963 when you had a discussion with your brother or with Marina respecting the return of either of them to Russia?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I only recall this one occasion.

Mr. Jenner. State what was said, please, and by whom.

Mr. Oswald. This was said by Marina Oswald in June of 1962 in very broken English: "I never want to go to Russia again."

Mr. Jenner. Return to Russia?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that was said in the presence of your brother Lee, your presence and your wife's presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I feel certain that all four of us were present.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother say anything on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. As to that subject matter?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. This took place in your home? How long after they had returned from Russia did this conversation take place?

Mr. McKenzie. What was that question?

Mr. Oswald. I would say 1 or 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. One or two weeks after they had returned from Russia?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. That is when they were staying with you after their return?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At any time prior to November 23, 1962, were you aware or did any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire on your brother Lee's part to go to Cuba?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Jenner. Or to Mexico?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Jenner. Or any other country than the United States?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any particular reason why you did not have some contact with Lee during the period November, Thanksgiving 1962, and your departure for Arkansas in March of 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; none that I was aware of. I did write him on two or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in Dallas, Tex., so when I had an opportunity either on business or otherwise passing through where I could possibly stop and see him, if not Marina and the child.

His response to this was as it is stated in the letter of March 17, 1963, that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would always retain the post office box in Dallas, Tex., where I might reach him through the mail and that I would not be able to see him or his family when I came through town.

Mr. Dulles. Did that surprise you?

Mr. Oswald. It did not at first, sir, because I realized he was not settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. However, it did concern me later, and I refer to my letter that I wrote him in March of 1963 which he replied to on March 17 or March 16, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Which is Commission Exhibit 322.

Mr. Oswald. That I would like to have an address other than a post office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, I did not respond to his letter of March 17, 1963. The last time I wrote him was in September 1963 when I returned to Texas and our moving into Denton, Tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that time requesting again an address where they were staying at in Dallas so that I might contact him, since again we were close together, approximately 30 miles away.

Mr. Jenner. And he did not respond to that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he never responded to that letter that I wrote him in September other than on the day that I visited him at Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail on November 23, 1963, he did say before I had an opportunity to say anything to him, "Robert, you now are living in Denton, aren't you?" And I said yes.

In other words, he had received my letter of September 1963.

Mr. Jenner. This was elicited by Mr. Dulles' question, his failure to advise you in due course eventually here as late as September 1963 of his location in Dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in your mind?

Mr. Oswald. It did to this extent, that I thought perhaps——

Mr. Jenner. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That you testified about.

Mr. Oswald. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that this would be out of character for him because he normally would keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth, even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated——

Mr. Jenner. Despite your at least two requests?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or three requests?

Mr. Oswald. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this would be my only speculation on that, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to effect a contact with Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Did my wife?

No, sir; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother, as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now testified about?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That it might be something other than possible marital difficulties?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did not advise me of his residence in Dallas, Tex.——

Mr. Jenner. Despite the fact that you requested it?

Mr. Oswald. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this, because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in any financial difficulty or any other difficulty.

Mr. Jenner. All right, thank you.

I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the examination in that respect.

Mr. Dulles. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment.

(Short recess.)

Mr. Jenner. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your brother upon General Walker?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Jenner. It is that to which I wish to direct a question.

Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. No one had spoken to you about it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; they had not.

Mr. Jenner. When did it first come to your attention?

Mr. Oswald. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the latter part of December 1963 or January 1964.

Mr. Jenner. It was subsequent to your brother's death?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than school boy antics?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a schoolboy——

Mr. Jenner. Was he given to tantrums?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. Dulles. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself, that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from your knowledge of him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to ask you that question. There have been people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I think on this record.

Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out?

Mr. Oswald. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no?

Mr. Oswald. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends, and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself.

Mr. Jenner. That is during the interim he had become, while you were away?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the service?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that what you mean to say?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed and describe that to us.

Mr. Oswald. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know of any friends that he had at that particular time.

One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a number of times during this period.

Mr. Jenner. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring and that you had actually noticed that difference in him?

Mr. Oswald. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself. However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that that persisted when he returned from Russia?

Was he still of that retiring nature?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to talk to people.

Mr. Jenner. After he left your home and took residence with your mother and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my office.

Mr. Jenner. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without invitation?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to the house and return them to their home.

Mr. Jenner. Did he do so?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Dulles. There has been some testimony here before the Commission to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further light on that?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas, and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that—I was aware that he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons, and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group of people.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain man named De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name familiar to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. McKenzie. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today, has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De Mohrenschildt.

I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner. Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women jurors——

Mr. Jenner. Could you fix that time?

Mr. McKenzie. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years. I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately.

George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes from a well-known Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company.

Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt, remarried and married another M.D.

Mr. Jenner. What is her married name?

Mr. McKenzie. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was connected with some blood type ailment.

Mr. Jenner. Leukemia?

Mr. McKenzie. No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years.

George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some time within the past two years there was an article on George De Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex., within the past 7 months.

I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his physical appearance, the one you have in mind?

Mr. McKenzie. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215 pounds.

Mr. Jenner. Age?

Mr. McKenzie. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian or of the Slavic races.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech?

Mr. McKenzie. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies.

Mr. Jenner. All right, thanks.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you very much.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised as to General Walker and Richard Nixon?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy in that assassination?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have seen pictures of it?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, ever see the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Oswald. I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was occupying?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for the rifle. It would not fire. And I gave him $10 for it, and took it back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm, be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and including, the 23d of November, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your presence and his presence during all of that period of time?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws' farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon.

Mr. Jenner. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the possession of a firearm of any kind or character?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962——

Mr. Jenner. Other than that to which you have already testified?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time.

Mr. Jenner. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in the negative?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I was excluding your prior testimony.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. McKenzie. Use his full name.

Mr. Jenner. Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge?

Mr. Oswald. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those establishments?

Mr. Jenner. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection, could you give me an answer?

Mr. Oswald. I have not, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer to——

Mr. Jenner. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of Representative Ford's questions at the moment.

Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November 23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And did that take place?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it did.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took place, who was present and what the circumstances were?

Mr. Oswald. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe of two or more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags, and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was present——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like". Do you mean you are speculating?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, is that a better expression, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base that belief.

Mr. Oswald. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents, at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard.

Mr. Jenner. That is your best recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is what you mean by believe?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly, there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan.

Mr. Jenner. These were the persons present on this occasion?

Mr. Oswald. I believe this to be.

Mr. Jenner. And what occurred and what was said?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me——

Mr. Jenner. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. And she had the newspaper in her possession?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. And she walked among you and said something?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. Did she exhibit anything?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. What did she exhibit?

Mr. Oswald. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man known as Jack Ruby.

Mr. Jenner. That was a picture in the newspaper?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed.

Mr. Oswald. And she stated to me——

Mr. Jenner. In the presence of the others?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, that two FBI agents had gone to the Executive Inn in Dallas, to the rooms where mother and Marina and Baby June Lee Oswald were staying, and that at this particular time Marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door fully, that one of the FBI agents produced a picture that she stated was Mr. Jack Ruby, and that was the text of it.

Mr. Dulles. You did not see the picture that was shown by the Secret Service man?

Mr. Oswald. The FBI man?

Mr. Dulles. The FBI man.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I did not. I was not there.

Mr. Jenner. Assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. Your mother stated that a picture of Mr. Jack Ruby had been exhibited to her by an FBI man.

Mr. Oswald. That a picture that an FBI man——

Mr. Jenner. On the Saturday night, November 23, 1963.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that the FBI man exhibited a picture, and mother said that she recognized from the newspaper to be Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. Jenner. Did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your mother made that statement?

Mr. Oswald. I believe they did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Give us your best recollection of what was said, and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police officer or a Secret Service man or an FBI agent, then do that.

Mr. Oswald. I believe Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to mother in the line or in the nature of "Are you sure" and so forth like that. It was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive.

Mr. Jenner. She responded that she was certain of it?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to her on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, was the man in the picture being identified as Mr. Jack Ruby, the killer of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. Did she say anything about what the officer who had shown her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing that picture?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show it to Marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired.

Mr. Jenner. Now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Prior to November 22, 1963——correction, prior to November 24, 1963, I believed her to be a stable average person. However, during the week of November 24, including the date of November 24, 1963, through Friday of that week, which was November 29, 1963, due to the happenings and the events that had ensued from the November 22d afternoon through Sunday of November 23d, it is my opinion that at first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected.

However, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963, that her reactions to other matters related to the events of November 22 and November 24, 1963, were abnormal reactions.

Mr. Jenner. Did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best of your knowledge thereafter?

Mr. Oswald. Since I have not seen her, sir, since Friday November 29, 1963, I have talked with her on telephone calls only, I have no opinion on that at this time.

Mr. Jenner. One way or the other?

Mr. Oswald. One way or the other.

Mr. Jenner. Whether continued or not continued?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You have testified that you thought you had an influence on Lee's joining the Marines. That is an influence of an example rather than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting that if he entered the service he should enter the Marines?

Mr. Oswald. That would be correct, sir. It would be as an example.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned a Mr. Gregory having visited at your home. Will you identify him, please?

Mr. Oswald. I believe his given name, sir, is Mr. Peter Gregory, but I am confused a little bit about his son. His son's name is Paul Gregory, or vice versa.

Mr. Jenner. It is Peter.

Mr. Oswald. Thank you. Mr. Peter Gregory came to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. on 7313 Davenport Street.

Mr. Jenner. Approximately when, please?

Mr. Oswald. Two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the last week in June, 1962.

Mr. Jenner. What was that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. He had come over to see Lee and meet Marina and talk with them in his native Russian language.

Mr. Jenner. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. Oswald. Not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me correctly. I believe he was by himself.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said in your presence that you understood, having in mind that he spoke Russian at least in part of that occasion, as to how he became aware that Lee and Marina were residing with you temporarily?

Mr. Oswald. We were expecting Mr. Gregory to come by that night. The preceding 2 or 3 days, I understood from Lee, that when he inquired at one of the bureaus of the Texas employment agencies in Fort Worth, that someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment with Lee to go see Mr. Gregory, since Lee could speak Russian and write the Russian language, they thought perhaps Mr. Gregory might know of some contact that he could place Lee with, where Lee might obtain a job speaking and writing the Russian language. I understood from Lee——

Mr. Jenner. That is the result of discussions in your presence in your home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. By Lee and Marina?

Mr. Oswald. By Lee to me.

Mr. Jenner. Lee to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. And I understood that——

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, if you could, if it is the result of Lee having told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is not the fact.

Mr. Oswald. Lee in our conversation told me that he went to Mr. Gregory's office on the first occasion to meet Mr. Gregory.

Mr. Jenner. And that would be before this last week in June when Mr. Gregory visited your home?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. What is Mr. Gregory's profession, do you happen to know?

Mr. Oswald. He was a consultant geologist. On this first occasion that Lee spent 1 or 2 hours talking with Mr. Gregory, and at the end of this occasion, Mr. Gregory gave Lee a letter to the effect, which I did read——

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Lee exhibit this letter to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to the present time?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. Jenner. And as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. You don't know whether it exists?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please recite the content of it as you now recall it?

Mr. Oswald. That it stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was competent to speak and write the Russian language fluently. That is my general remembrance of this letter.

Mr. Jenner. Was it signed? Did it have a signature?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it did.

Mr. Jenner. Was it on a letterhead?

Mr. Oswald. I believe it was, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Was Mr. Gregory a Russian by origin as far as you know?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he was.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother tell you that?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. Dulles. Was he a naturalized American, or don't you know?

Mr. Oswald. This I do not know, sir. But during this conversation, he told me about Mr. Gregory to the extent that he had come from Russia approximately——

Mr. Dulles. This is your brother now?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, talking to me. Approximately 40 years prior to that time.

Mr. Jenner. So he had been in this country for approximately 40 years?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It was not long after that conversation in which your brother Lee reported these things to you that Mr. Gregory visited at your home the last week in June of 1962, is that correct?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, approximately the last week in June 1962.

Mr. Dulles. Did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know Mr. Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he had.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate that?

Mr. Oswald. Through the lady at the Texas employment agency.

Mr. Jenner. He had gone to the Texas employment agency and had an interview with that lady?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In charge of the agency?

Mr. Oswald. One of the personnel working within the agency.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother say to you that she had suggested Mr. Gregory as a possible source?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. With regard to employment?

Mr. Oswald. That she had volunteered to call Mr. Gregory on his behalf to set up an appointment where Lee could go by and see him and talk with him in relation to employment.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother indicate that that was his first acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named Peter Gregory existed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Jenner. And he said that to you affirmatively?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In the course of that conversation, did your brother report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of Russian derivation or who could or might speak Russian and be of possible assistance to your brother in obtaining employment?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. Jenner. The conversation was confined to a Mr. Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And have you now given us all you can recall as to that conversation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Gregory visited your home the last week in June or at least approximately then?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He came alone to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it was a visit, intended as a visit with Lee and Marina primarily?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were present when he came to your home?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I was.

Mr. Jenner. Did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with Lee or with Marina?

Mr. Oswald. He certainly recognized Lee. He did not recognize Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Was he introduced to her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, he was.

Mr. Jenner. On that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, he was.

Mr. Jenner. In your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your impression that he was not acquainted with her prior to that time?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or she with him?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question here. Do you know of any other close friends of Lee's?

Mr. Oswald. At that time, sir, I was not aware of any others.

Mr. Dulles. The Fords you met later, I believe, did you not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Dulles. And are they Russian or is one of them Russian?

Mr. Oswald. His wife is originally from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. How did you discover that, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. That Mrs. Ford was Russian?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. I believe Marina told me.

Mr. Jenner. Representative Ford has asked that that subject be inquired into also, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way?

Mr. Jenner. Would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the names of Lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in June 1962 up to and including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Oswald. The only ones I was aware of, sir, other than members of the family, was Mr. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul Gregory.

Mr. Jenner. May I stop you at that moment. You say his son Paul Gregory. Did you come to meet Paul Gregory as well as Peter?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. On some occasion subsequent to this last week in June of '62?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Had you known that there was a Paul Gregory at the time Peter Gregory visited your home in June of '62?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. He might possibly have mentioned his son at that time, but I do not recall that he did.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have any specific recollection of it?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. When did you meet Paul Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately 2 or 3 days later.

Mr. Jenner. Under what circumstances?

Mr. Oswald. Mr. Peter Gregory and Mr. Paul Gregory both came to the house.

Mr. Jenner. And this is the second occasion of Mr. Gregory being in your home, to which you have already alluded?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And what was the purpose of their visit at your house on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. To meet with Lee and Marina again, and to the best of my remembrance, for his son, Paul Gregory, who was attending either the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma University, or Oklahoma State University, at which he was studying the Russian language.

And I believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university, and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the Russian language, besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the Russian language.

Mr. Jenner. Was that stated in your presence?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, it was.

Mr. Jenner. In this case, you now identified?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By Paul Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did he attempt to converse, or converse with Lee, and/or with Marina in Russian on that occasion?

Mr. Oswald. He did with both.

Mr. Jenner. And on both occasions did Peter Gregory confer or talk with Lee and Marina or either of them or both of them in Russian?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, they did.

Mr. Jenner. Were you forewarned or did you have notice that the Gregorys, Paul and Peter, were to visit you on the second occasion?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in advance of that visit, or with Marina on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not recall any.

Mr. Jenner. Are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or talked with Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, it was not.

Mr. Jenner. When subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. I spoke again with Mr. Peter Gregory on Sunday morning, November 24, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. So it was an occasion subsequent to the death of President Kennedy?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Where did that take place?

Mr. Oswald. At Howard Johnson's Restaurant on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come about?

Mr. Oswald. I was to meet Mr. Gregory and two Secret Service agents at that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the Executive Inn at Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Who had arranged that rendezvous?

Mr. Oswald. By mutual consent between myself and the Secret Service agent, Mike Howard.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Howard suggested it?

Mr. Oswald. He suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to Dallas.

Mr. Dulles. I believe this is described in your diary, is it not?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see or speak with Peter Gregory—have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Now, first—when was that? Is it recorded in your diary?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not believe it is in my diary.

Mr. Jenner. And when did that meeting take place? The one you now have in mind.

Mr. Oswald. On three or four occasions during the week of November 25, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. In what city or town?

Mr. Oswald. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And was he visiting there?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter between the United States Secret Service and Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the United States in June of 1962. Now, who next in addition to Paul and Peter Gregory?

Mr. Oswald. None, sir.

Mr. Jenner. None?

Mr. Oswald. None.

Mr. Jenner. Were the Fords friends of your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you became acquainted with them, when for the first time?

Mr. McKenzie. Last Tuesday, a week ago this past Tuesday, on February 11, 1964.

Mr. Jenner. You were unacquainted with either of them prior to that time?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you have already testified about the Paines. And you can recall none other—no other persons?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Friend or acquaintance of either Marina or of your brother Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Oswald. Other than the ones I have described.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Dulles. Plus, of course, the Paines, whom you have already discussed, and others you may have discussed.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any knowledge of your brother Lee's defection or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. And other—other than there might be a reference to that subject in the correspondence you have produced for us?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any possible reason to believe that your brother Lee Harvey Oswald knew Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein, alias Jack Ruby?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, are you asking for my opinion?

Mr. Jenner. I am asking if you have any knowledge first—anything upon which you can base an opinion.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Jenner. That he did or might have had an acquaintance with Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you the same question as to Officer Tippit.

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I do not.

Mr. Dulles. With regard to Jack Ruby, you hesitated a moment.

Do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to add or could add?

Mr. Oswald. I just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that I might have.

Mr. Dulles. Well, let's ask for your opinion now.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we will go to your opinion.

Do you have an opinion?

Mr. Oswald. Based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the week of November 25, 1963, at which time two reported employees of Mr. Jack Ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that they had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Mr. Ruby's establishment, known as the Carousel Club, and also on one occasion either or both of these reported witnesses stated that they had seen Mr. Ruby speaking to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only that that you voice this opinion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

I might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through various magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route taken supposedly by my brother Lee from the place of his boarding house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or approximately a direct line to Mr. Ruby's apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with the decision which your sister-in-law, Marina, reached not to reside with your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; I most certainly am.

Mr. Jenner. And did you take part in that decision, or were you present during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision?

Mr. Oswald. I would say that that decision, sir, was 90 percent my decision, and only 10 percent Marina N. Oswald's decision.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took, your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now recall about it?

Mr. Oswald. This took place at the Inn——

Mr. Jenner. Before you answer—it is not recorded in your diary, is it?

Mr. McKenzie. The diary would be the best evidence of that.

Mr. Jenner. In order that I don't try to examine over 20 pages——

Mr. Dulles. I have just read the diary, and I do not recall it.

Mr. McKenzie. I don't, either. I don't believe it is.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mr. Oswald. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time.

Mr. Oswald. On Thursday morning, November 28, 1963, at which time I talked to Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. In whose presence, if anyone?

Mr. Oswald. If memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of Mr. Jim Martin, and perhaps one Secret Service agent that I cannot recall vividly enough to identify by name. That Mr. Martin—if I may back up, sir. We did have a Secret Service agent there. I do recall he was Mr. Gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. And I do believe that Mr. Gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed with Marina the possibility of her moving to Mr. Jim Martin's home in Dallas, Tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with her children, and I believe at this time she asked my opinion of this, whether or not I thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that this was the thing to do at that time.

Mr. Jenner. This discussion occurred in the presence of these people you have mentioned?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Included in that discussion, was the alternative of her residing with your mother discussed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it was not, because I did not look to that as an alternative.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether Marina—had there been any discussion prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by anyone that Marina undertake residence with your mother?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between me and Marina or myself and my mother that Marina was going to reside in her place.

Mr. Jenner. As a possibility?

Mr. Oswald. Not to my knowledge, sir. I might——

Mr. Jenner. Whether the discussion was directly with you or not, was the subject of the possibility—it is always possible—of Marina residing with your mother—was it raised during this period of time? Did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being considered—apart from whether there was discussion with you directly?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, to my knowledge I was not aware of any situation such as that.

Mr. Jenner. I forgot now.

Did you say Marina was present during the course of this discussion?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And did she say anything on the subject through the interpreter?

Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir, go to the preceding day of Thursday, November 28, 1963, to Wednesday, November 27, 1963, at which time I was advised by Secret Service agent Mike Howard of the offer of Mr. Jim Martin to take Marina and the children into the family, into his family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. I did not discuss at first with Marina this offer. I did discuss with Mr. Jim Martin, prior to discussing with Marina N. Oswald, this possibility.

Mr. Jenner. This possibility being what possibility?

Mr. Oswald. Of Marina accepting this offer.

Mr. Jenner. Of Mr. Martin?

Mr. Oswald. Of Mr. Martin's, that is correct.

After my discussion with Mr. Martin on this question—

Mr. Jenner. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr. Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end of that discussion. I considered in my own mind for a number of hours, perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. At the Six Flags?

Mr. Oswald. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room.

Mr. Jenner. Anybody else present?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Oswald. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate room.

Mr. Jenner. They didn't take part in the discussion?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his home, and the children into his home.

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you.

You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I take it—am I correct from that that she had not theretofore become acquainted with him?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember which man was Mr. Martin.

And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know him from then on.

Mr. Jenner. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew little or nothing?

Mr. Oswald. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a complete strange family.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, you were raising a question in your own mind on the subject?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I stated it to—I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and her children move into my home in Denton, Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Had you suggested that to her?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or to anybody else?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had the suggestion been made to you?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, it had not.

Mr. Dulles. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time?

Mr. Oswald. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir.

Mr. Jenner. For what reason?

Mr. Oswald. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police office, as previously testified.

Mr. Jenner. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject, of her desire or possibility of her residing—returning to reside with the Paines?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. Jenner. And what did she say on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine and live.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Even desirable to her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And what was your response to that?

Mr. Oswald. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the thing to do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say that to her?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Affirmatively?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And what did she say in response to that?

Mr. Oswald. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. That is a normal response.

What did you say to that?

Mr. Oswald. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were the proper or correct people for her to be associated with.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you please tell us—were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't think they are the proper people"?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. It is very difficult.

Mr. Jenner. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his recollection.

Mr. Dulles. Are you tired at all?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir.

Mr. McKenzie. Let me ask you one question, if I may.

Mr. Jenner. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first?

Mr. McKenzie. Surely.

Mr. Oswald. May I, sir, in my own way?

Mr. Dulles. Do you object to the question?

Mr. McKenzie. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I think he is trying to answer your question.

Mr. Jenner. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.

But the witness, as always—this is not criticism of this witness—they do tend to speak in terms of conclusions.

I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and recite what occurred.

Mr. Dulles. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever you wish to do?

Mr. Jenner. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can, exactly what you said to her in that respect?

Mr. Oswald. My recollection of that, sir—I stated to her, because of her limited knowledge of English, that no—perhaps with some hand signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this line—something of that nature, sir.

That is the best I can do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction of that—was that Saturday night, did you say?

Mr. Oswald. No, this was a Wednesday.

Mr. Jenner. Wednesday night—had led you to have some reservations about them?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe, was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it was—because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her.

Mr. Dulles. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr. Paine from time to time would visit there.

Mr. Oswald. That is my understanding, too, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina this advice?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and not divorced. Isn't that correct?

Mr. Jenner. That is my understanding.

Mr. Oswald. That is my understanding, also.

And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office.

Mr. Jenner. Aware of the separation?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine that he would—I believe this to be my best recollection—that he would take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs. Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult situation, I will explain it on the way."

Mr. Jenner. And that increased your antipathy?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Jenner. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that Marina would reside with the Martins?

Mr. Oswald. Not on Wednesday night, sir.

On Thursday, the ensuing night.

Mr. Jenner. The following day?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have told us about that.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence? Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her?

Mr. Oswald. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my mother.

Mr. Jenner. You do not?

Mr. Oswald. If I may, sir—I believe you have reference to the United States Secret Service agents there.

Mr. Jenner. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want to cover that.

You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the—by FBI agents?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You might have an opinion, but you have no—well, I will withdraw that.

Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents.

Mr. Oswald. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her.

Mr. Jenner. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly" in your opinion?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; it would not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you have in mind was treating her harshly?

Mr. Oswald. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel.

Mr. Jenner. During this period, did you have a good impression of him?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment?

Mr. Oswald. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front door one day—I do not recall the day—I would say this would be approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963—there was a brief exchange at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all."

And Mr. Kunkel's reply was—and he was irritated—that he would not unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him.

And that was the end of that.

Mr. Jenner. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your mother?

Mr. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she asserts that the FBI did not interview her.

Do you have any information on that subject?

Mr. Oswald. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. May I have your question again, please?

(The reporter read the pending question.)

Mr. Oswald. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs. Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents.