Monday, February 10, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD (continued 2)

Mr. Rankin. Was anyone else present when he saw you?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Marina and I were escorted back of the door where they had an enclosure and telephones. So Marina got on the telephone and talked to Lee in Russian. That is my handicap. I don't know what was said. And Lee seemed very severely composed and assured. He was well-beaten up. He had black eyes, and his face was all bruised and everything. But he was very calm. He smiled with his wife, and talked with her, and then I got on the phone and I said, "Honey, you are so bruised up, your face. What are they doing?"

He said, "Mother, don't worry. I got that in a scuffle."

Now, my son would not tell me they had abused him. That was a boy's way to his mother—if he was abused, and it was shown in the paper his black eyes—he wouldn't tell how he got that. He said that was done in the scuffle. So I talked and said, "Is there anything I can do to help you?"

He said, "No, Mother, everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I have already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is the name. Don't worry about a thing."

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to him about another suspect?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I did not. That was my entire conversation to him.

Gentlemen, you must realize this. I had heard over the television my son say, "I did not do it. I did not do it."

And a million of the other people had heard him. I say this. As a mother—I heard my son say this. But also as a citizen, if I had heard another man say, I didn't do it, I will have to believe that man, because he hasn't been—hasn't had the opportunity to present his side of the case. So here is my son. When I saw him people had said, "Did you ask him if he did it?"

No, sir. I think by now you know my temperament, gentlemen. I would not insult my son and ask him if he shot at President Kennedy. Why? Because I myself heard him say, "I didn't do it, I didn't do it."

So, that was enough for me, I would not ask that question.

Mr. Rankin. Who told you that there was—they had found another suspect?

Mrs. Oswald. One of the officers. That, sir, I don't know. He just walked in real fast while we were sitting down and said they had picked up another suspect, and it was in the paper that they had picked up another suspect at that particular time, which would have been approximately 1 o'clock that day.

Mr. Rankin. But you don't remember the officer's name?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, that is all he said and he left. He was just relaying why we would be delayed. But it was also published. I do not have the paper or the information. But I do know from the reporters, when I told my story, that part to them—they said that substantiates the newspaper story that they did pick up a suspect at that time.

Mr. Rankin. About how long did you and Marina spend there with your son?

Mrs. Oswald. I would say I spent about 3 or 4 minutes on the telephone, and then Marina came back to the telephone and talked with Lee. So we left. So Marina started crying. Marina says, "Mamma, I tell Lee I love Lee and Lee says he love me very much. And Lee tell me to make sure I buy shoes for June."

Now, here is a man that is accused of the murder of a President. This is the next day, or let's say about 24 hours that he has been questioned. His composure is good. And he is thinking about his young daughter needing shoes.

Now, June was wearing shoes belonging to Mrs. Paine's little girl, Marina told me—they were little red tennis shoes, and the top was worn. They were clean, and the canvas was showing by the toe part, like children wear out their toes.

I ask you this, gentlemen. If Marina had a hundred and some odd dollars in the house, why is it necessary that my son has to tell her at the jailhouse, remind her to buy shoes for his baby, for their child? Just a few dollars out of that hundred and some odd dollars would have bought shoes for this particular child.

Another way to look at this, as I stated previously—that the boy is concerned about shoes for his baby, and he is in this awful predicament. So he must feel innocent, or sure that everything is going to be all right, as he told me.

Mr. Rankin. Now, in this telephone conversation, when you talked to your son, can you explain a little bit to the Commission how that is? Was your son on the other side of a wall or something?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. My son was on the other side of the wall, and then back of the wall was a door with a peephole, where an officer was.

Now, we are going to come from the door, with the peephole and the officer, to my son. Then a glass partition and then glass partitions like telephone booths. But not really inclosed—just a little separation.

Mr. Rankin. So you could not reach in there and take your son's hand?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. We talked by telephone.

Mr. Rankin. And he had a telephone on his side, and——

Mrs. Oswald. And he had a telephone.

Mr. Rankin. And you talked back and forth?

Mrs. Oswald. Back and forth, that is right. That is the way we talked. And the boy was badly beat up. I have proof in the papers—his face, black eyes, all scratched up, his neck was scratched. He was badly beat up. But he assured me they were not mistreating him, that he got some of the bruises in the scuffle. As I say, the boy, if he was being mistreated, would not tell his mother that.

Mr. Rankin. And whatever Marina said to him was in Russian, and you didn't understand it?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I did not understand. But I would say this, it seemed to be just an ordinary pleasant conversation. He was smiling. And she told me he said he loved her very much, she said she loved him, and told about buying the shoes for the baby. That is all she said. She did not tell me any other part of the conversation. And they talked quite a while. She talked with him twice. She talked with him the first time. I got on the phone. Then she talked to him again.

Mr. Rankin. Did it sound like there was any dispute or argument?

Mrs. Oswald. No. It was a pleasant conversation. But she did not volunteer to tell me what was said, and I did not ask her what was said.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do after that?

Mrs. Oswald. So then after that we went back to the Adolphus Hotel. And upon arriving at the hotel—I am a little ahead of my story.

The police and the detectives at the Dallas jail were most courteous to Marina and I. There were hundreds of reporters out in the corridor. And we were getting ready to leave, so they said that they would take us down the back way—incidentally, the same place where my son was shot. And they had arranged for two to go down and to get a car and to bring into this basement, and take us down the back elevator, and try to avoid the reporters. And there were approximately six or seven in the elevator. When we got down there, there were just a few reporters, and they went way out of their way to elude any reporters. We were at the Adolphus Hotel as I explained to you. And instead of from the jail going straight to the Adolphus Hotel, they drove around 20 or 25 minutes time in circles in order to lose anybody who might be following Marina and I.

So, as we got to the floor of the Adolphus Hotel, we knocked on the door where we were, and no one answered. We were with two men. Immediately around the corner comes Mr. Tommy Thompson, the Life representative.

Mr. Rankin. What two men were you with?

Mrs. Oswald. Two men from the Dallas courthouse.

Mr. Rankin. From the police?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, from the police.

So Mr. Tommy Thompson came and they asked for his credentials. I had never even—as thorough as I am trying to be—I am trying to tell you there are some things I don't know because of the confusion—I didn't ask for the credentials. I could have been with anybody. I just assumed they were Life representatives. I had not asked. But these Dallas detectives or police, in plain clothes, asked Mr. Tommy Thompson for his credentials, and then left us in his care again.

Immediately Mr. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what do you plan to do now?"

The interpreter was gone, and so was the other representative, Mr. Allen Grant.

I said, "Well, the arrangement was that we were going to stay here in the hotel for a few days, and you were going to pay expenses."

He said, "But you have not given us any facts."

They were not interested—and to me it seems very strange that they were not interested in my conversation at the jail with my son. They did not even ask if we saw Lee. Yet they knew we left the Adolphus Hotel in order to go see Lee. But they did not even ask if we saw Lee. And I have often wondered about that.

So when I told him that we expected to stay there, he said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, the reporters will be coming in flocks, they know where you are. Just a minute."

He got on the telephone. Mr. Allen Grant—they had a Life—the Life representatives had a room on the ninth floor where they had a lot of men working on this case, and we were on the 11th, I believe. So Mr. Allen Grant came down from the ninth floor with another man—I do not know his name—because the baby's diapers had to be changed and things of this sort. He said, "Mrs. Oswald"—they left. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what we are going to do is get you on the outskirts of town, so the reporters won't know where you are, and here is some money for your expenses in case you need anything."

Well, I took the bill, and I put it in my uniform pocket without looking at it. That may sound strange to you gentlemen, but this is confusion. I knew it was money, and I just put it in my uniform pocket.

So Mr. Allen Grant escorted my daughter-in-law and I out of the hotel, the Adolphus Hotel, and took us to the Executive Inn, which is on the outskirts of Dallas. We sat in the car. He went in and came out, then, and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I have arranged for you all to stay here for 2 or 3 days. I have to be back in San Francisco. Anything you want you have your cash that Mr. Tommy Thompson gave you. And he will be in touch with you."

Well, I didn't think too much of it. He escorted us with a porter up to our room.

We had two beautiful suites—two, not one—completed rooms and baths, adjoining, at the Executive Inn. And that was the last time I had seen either representative. I was stranded with a Russian girl and two babies. I didn't realize in the beginning. But then it was time for food, and I had to order food. I told Marina to stay aside and that I would let the man in. She stayed in her room. I let this man in with the food, and then I became uneasy, that he might know who we were is what I was uneasy about, because I didn't realize the danger actually Marina and I were in.

I sensed we were alone. And there I was with a Russian girl. And I didn't want anybody to know who we were, because I knew my son had been picked up.

So this is where the picture comes in.

While there, Marina—there is an ashtray on the dressing table. And Marina comes with bits of paper, and puts them in the ashtray and strikes a match to it. And this is the picture of the gun that Marina tore up into bits of paper, and struck a match to it.

Now, that didn't burn completely, because it was heavy—not cardboard—what is the name for it—a photographic picture. So the match didn't take it completely.

Mr. Rankin. Had you said anything to her about burning it before that?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. The last time I had seen the picture was in Marina's shoe when she was trying to tell me that the picture was in her shoe. I state here now that Marina meant for me to have that picture, from the very beginning, in Mrs. Paine's home. She said—I testified before—"Mamma, you keep picture."

And then she showed it to me in the courthouse. And when I refused it, then she decided to get rid of the picture.

She tore up the picture and struck a match to it. Then I took it and flushed it down the toilet.

Mr. Rankin. And what time was this?

Mrs. Oswald. This—now, just a minute, gentlemen, because this I know is very important to me and to you, too.

We had been in the jail. This was an evening. Well, this, then, would be approximately 5:30 or 6 in the evening.

Mr. Rankin. What day?

Mrs. Oswald. On Saturday, November 23. Now, I flushed the torn bits and the half-burned thing down the commode. And nothing was said. There was nothing said.

Mr. Rankin. That was at the Executive Inn?

Mrs. Oswald. At the Executive Inn.

Now, Mr. Hart Odum, the same FBI agent, that insisted upon my daughter-in-law going with him from the Adolphus Hotel, knocked on the door at the Executive Inn. I had had my robe and slippers on, and I pushed the curtain aside when he knocked. He said, "This is Mr. Odum."

So, I opened the door. This is very important. I would like to not talk about it. I would like to show you what I did. This is so important.

I opened the door just a little, because I had the robe off and I didn't want anybody to come in. The door is just ajar. I am going to take my shoes off, gentlemen, because I have this worked out. This is my height. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, we would like to see Marina."

I said, "Mr. Odum, I stated yesterday you are not going to see Marina. We are awful tired."

"Well, we just want to ask her one question."

"Mr. Odum, I am not calling my daughter. As a matter of fact, she is taking a bath."

She wasn't.

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, I would like to ask you a question."

I said, "Yes, sir." The door is ajar. This is my height. I wear bifocals, which enlarges things. And in his hand—his hand is bigger than mine—in the cup of his hand, like this, is a picture. And the two corners are torn off the picture. This is a very glossy black and white picture of a man's face and shoulder.

Now, Mr. Odum wasn't too tall. I need somebody else. Mr. Odum's hand with the picture—what I am trying to say—he is facing this way—showing me. So my eyes are looking straight at the picture. And I have nothing else to see but this hand and the picture, because the door is ajar. And there is nothing on the picture but a face and shoulders. There is no background or anything. So I can identify this picture amongst millions of pictures, I am so sure of it. It was a glossy black and white picture. So I said, "No, sir, believe me. I have never seen this picture in my life."

With that, he went off.

There was another man with him.

About an hour later the telephone rang, and it was Mrs. Paine. She said, "Mrs. Oswald, Lee called and he was very upset because Marina was not with me, and he asked me to get a lawyer for him, a Mr. Abt. I would like to talk to Marina."

So I put Marina on the telephone, and Marina said about two or three words.

So when she got off the telephone, I said,—Now, Marina talks in Russian, gentlemen. I said, "Marina, Mrs. Paine told me that Lee called and you were not home at Mrs. Paine, and Lee tells Mrs. Paine to get a lawyer."

Marina didn't answer.

And I then sensed—well, now, why isn't she answering me? This is very peculiar.

And there was no more said about that conversation.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask her about this lawyer?

Mrs. Oswald. Ask Marina?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. There was no more said about this conversation.

Mr. Rankin. You didn't say anything about Mr. Abt to her then?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. But here is the point to this whole thing.

The FBI agent would have to know where we were, and Mrs. Paine would have to know where we were, because of these two Life representatives, who, I am assuming, probably went back to Mrs. Paine's home in order to get more information. And she—they would have told her where we were, because no one knew where we were. This girl and I had no protection or anything. We were sent out there with this Mr. Allen Grant, the representative. And no one knew who we were. And Mr. Hart Odum would have to know where we were through Mrs. Paine, which is a normal procedure, let's say. He might have gone to Mrs. Paine's home looking for Marina there, and Mrs. Paine might have told him we were at the Executive Inn. I will grant that.

But the point I am going to make is that the picture was tried to be shown to Marina before the telephone conversation.

Now, if there are any questions why I say that, I would be happy to answer.

Mr. Rankin. Yes—why do you say that?

Mrs. Oswald. Because they wanted Marina——

Mr. Dulles. Could we get what picture this is? Is that the picture held in the hand?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir—the picture that is held in the hand, that the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum showed me.

Mr. Rankin. I understand you didn't recognize who the picture was at all.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I told Mr. Hart Odum I had never seen the man before, "Believe me, sir," and he left.

So the picture was shown—was tried—had tried to be shown to my daughter-in-law, but they were not successful.

So then they received—Marina receives a telephone call.

Now, I am under the impression, since I know it was Mr. Jack Ruby's picture I saw—at the time I didn't.

Mr. Rankin. How do you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. Because I have seen his picture in the paper. Now I know it is Mr. Jack Ruby.

I am under the impression that Marina was threatened——

Mr. Rankin. What was the date now?

Mrs. Oswald. This is Saturday, November 23d. This is approximately 6:30 in the evening, that the FBI agent came. And the telephone call was later.

Now, I have no way of knowing whether Lee had permission to use the telephone. Remember, Lee is in jail.

Mr. Rankin. About what time do you think the telephone call was?

Mrs. Oswald. I would say it was about 7:30, 8 o'clock in the night.

Mr. Rankin. That was still on Saturday night?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, still on Saturday night at the Executive Inn. And that was after the picture was shown to me—she received this telephone call, and became very silent.

And the next day my son was shot.

Now, it is now that I have done investigation of this case that I believe that the picture was meant for Marina to see, meant for Marina to see.

Mr. Rankin. Why do you think that?

Mrs. Oswald. Because now it has been proven that Jack Ruby killed my son. And I think there is a connection there. Because Marina did not tell me about her conversation. And you men hold the answer whether Lee used the telephone from the jailhouse. I don't know that.

Mr. Rankin. You base that on just your own conclusion that you arrive at now, do you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—because of the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum, insistence on taking my daughter-in-law—and he being the same agent that came and showed the picture. And Mr. Ruby being the man that shot Lee—yes, these are definite conclusions.

Mr. Rankin. That is what you base it on?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, that is what I base it on.

Mr. Dulles. Do I understand correctly that Marina did not see the picture at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. That is correct, sir. But they tried awfully hard for Marina to see the picture.

Mr. Rankin. And when they could not show it to her——

Mrs. Oswald. They showed it to me—yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Have you ever seen that picture since?

Mrs. Oswald. On a Wednesday—Lee was shot on a Sunday—neither Marina nor I knew how he was shot. They kept it from us. You have to visualize this.

We were at the Six Flags with approximately 18 to 20 FBI agents, Secret Service men running in and out, a woman with a Russian girl and two sick babies, and the girl and I do not know what is going on.

Mr. Rankin. When you had gotten over to the Six Flags, you must have skipped something there—you were in the Executive Inn before.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I was going to make a point about letting you know why I didn't know.

Mr. Rankin. All right.

Mrs. Oswald. All right—let's go back to the Executive Inn.

So that night I was very upset and very worried. I realized that we were there alone. And we were not going to go in town, into Dallas. I wasn't going to take this Russian girl and the two babies. And the babies were all chapped. We had no diapers. We were not prepared for this. And it was hectic, gentlemen.

So all night long I am wondering how can I get in touch with Robert, what can I do.

And I was a little suspicious of Mrs. Paine. I was suspicious of Mrs. Paine from the time I entered her home.

Mr. Rankin. Had you found out how much money the Life man gave you?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not even yet.

Mr. Rankin. All right.

Mrs. Oswald. So I signed for the food. I called the operator and I asked the operator what name the room was registered under. She said, "Well, this is an unusual request. Don't you know what room—what name?"

I said, "Frankly, I don't. We are three couples. I don't know which name they used."

So she told me that the room was registered under Mrs. Allen Grant, which is the name of the Life representative. So I charged and signed. And they would have that for proof—Mrs. Allen Grant, on the food.

Mr. Rankin. Why did you say three couples?

Mrs. Oswald. I just said that to the operator, because I had to give her a reason why I didn't know which name the room was registered under.

So I just wanted to elaborate a little bit—let her know. I didn't want to give my name. Because I was by this time a little concerned about the situation.

During the night I thought—"We are in a position here, I am in a position with a Russian girl and two babies, and I just don't know what to do."

I had no contact with Robert. Robert was trying to get an attorney. And I didn't know if Robert knew where we were. And I did not want to call Mrs. Paine. I wanted to stay clear of Mrs. Paine.

So this is a very unusual coincidence.

Now, I have to go back a little bit. But, believe me, gentlemen, the story will get together for you to understand.

About 1 month prior to this, there was an ad in a Fort Worth paper that the public library was going to have language lessons, and one was Russian classes.

Well, I then, as I told you—I was employed for the 3 to 11 shift. And I was getting a day off. And this would have been a steady job because this woman was not that sick, just an invalid.

So I decided on my day off I wanted to do something. So I decided I would call up about it, and on my day off—make Tuesday my day off and take up Russian in case—because I had always hoped in my heart that Marina and Lee would contact me some day. After all, I am a mother first.

So I went to the library. And Mr. Peter Gregory was the instructor.

Now, you must remember—I did not know that he knew Marina and Lee. This is public notice for the Russian language.

So Mr. Peter Gregory is the instructor.

I went to the second class. My car broke down just one block from the library, and I had to have it towed, and I went to the class. And Mr. Peter Gregory was there, and several of the women waiting for his classes to start. I said I don't imagine I will learn anything, because my car has broken down and I am pretty upset. And Mr. Gregory said, "Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald? Maybe I could help you and take you home." And the other couple said, "We would be happy."

And I said I live in Arlington Heights. And he happens to live about 10 blocks away.

Now, I have to go back.

The point I am going to make is this: Mr. Peter Gregory is the engineer who knew my son Robert, who was friends with Lee and Marina. Yet when I registered for a class, and the librarian had come back down before the class, and read off the names of the people that were going to take the Spanish lesson, isn't it peculiar that Mr. Gregory did not remember me as the mother of Lee—didn't acknowledge me as the mother of Lee? I find that very peculiar.

Even the second lesson, there was no acknowledgment.

So I went home with Mr. Peter Gregory. And there was still no acknowledgment.

So we were talking about the Russian language, that is is very hard to learn. And I said, "I am sure I will never master it." And I thought I think I will tell him why I want to take lessons is because of my Russian daughter-in-law, and my son speaks Russian. But I didn't do it.

But I am going to point out again that Mr. Gregory did not acknowledge me.

I am going to give and take. Maybe he didn't connect me. But it would seem very odd—Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was the name—that he didn't connect as Marina's mother-in-law and Lee's mother, when he was such a friend with them.

Mr. Rankin. I am not clear as to what lessons you were taking.

Mrs. Oswald. Russian lessons at the public library in Fort Worth, Tex., and Mr. Gregory was the teacher.

Mr. Rankin. You said something about Spanish.

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, did I? I am sorry. No, sir, the Russian language.

The Chairman. What days were these?

Mr. Rankin. What days were these that you talked to Mr. Gregory?

Mrs. Oswald. You mean the Russian language?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not have this information. But I can get it for you from the public library, because there was a public notice in the paper.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us approximately?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it was just right before the assassination. I had taken two lessons. Yes, I had taken two lessons, and then I didn't go for the third lesson, because this was on a Friday—the lessons were on a Tuesday. So I had taken two lessons, the two Tuesdays prior to the assassination.

Mr. Rankin. I see.

So it would be around a little over 3 weeks before the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. Two Tuesdays before, and then my next lesson would have been the Tuesday after the Friday of the assassination.

Yes, sir, that is the time.

So then I thought of Mr. Gregory.

Now, believe me, gentlemen—and I will swear again, if you want me to—nothing was said about Mr. Gregory and Marina being friends. But I do have a guardian angel. And, as I go along, some of the things I know have been from this guardian angel.

This was just a coincidence.

I thought of calling Mr. Peter Gregory. I have no friends in Fort Worth. I never—I live a very lonely life. I am not lonely. But I live to myself. I am kept very busy. I had my work, 24 hour duty. So really I have no friends. And because of Lee's defection, I didn't make any new friends.

So I am racking my mind who can I call for help. And I think of Mr. Peter Gregory. So I call Mr. Peter Gregory at 6:30 in the morning, Sunday, the 24th—Sunday morning the 24th.

And I didn't want the hotel operator to know who I was. So I gave a fictitious name. He said, "I am sorry,"—I said, "I can't tell you who I am, Mr. Gregory."

I am ahead of my story.

Marina, when I said, "Marina, we need help, honey. I am going to call a Mr. Gregory."

And I told her about me taking Russian lessons.

"Oh, Mama, I know Mr. Gregory, Lee know Mr. Gregory, the man at the library that gives Russian lessons."

So I find that very much of a coincidence.

So I called Mr. Gregory. I said, "Mr. Gregory, I won't say who I am, but you know my son and you know my daughter-in-law, and I am in trouble, sir. I am over here."

He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anybody I don't know."

Mr. Rankin. What name did you give him?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't give him any name.

He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anyone I don't know."

And I said again, "Well, you know my son real well."

He said, "Oh, you are Mrs. Oswald."

I said, "Yes sir, this is Mrs. Oswald. We are at the Executive Inn in Dallas, stranded. And do you know of anyone who would give my daughter-in-law and I a home, and put us up for the time that this is going on, so we can be near Lee at the courthouse? I need help. Mr. Gregory."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, what is your room number? I will help you. Hold still. Help will be coming."

And so that was the end of my conversation with Mr. Gregory.

At 11:30 Sunday, November 23d, my son Robert and Mr. Gregory came to the Executive Inn, all excited. We had diapers strung all over the place. My uniform was washed. I had no clothes with me.

I went with the uniform.

"Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here."

I am not one to be told what to do, and you gentlemen know that by this time. I said, "What's your hurry? We have the diapers and all. I want to tell you what happened."

"Mother, Mother stop talking. We have to get you out of here."

Mr. Gregory said, "Mrs. Oswald, will you listen and get things together. We have to get you out of here."

I said, "That is all we have been doing since yesterday, running from one place to the other. Give us just a minute. We are coming, but we have to pack things."

"Hurry up."

I said, "I want you to know how we got here. I was shown a picture of a man last night. And Mrs. Paine called and said that Lee called."

I told him exactly.

So Mr. Gregory and Robert knew about the things I told you. I told him that while I am gathering up the things.

"Mrs. Oswald, we will talk later. We have to get you out of here."

I have found out since that my son was shot. But they did not tell us.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a television in this room?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Now, here is another Godsend. We watched the television, Marina and I. She watched more than I did. We were very busy, Mr. Rankin. The babies had diarrhea and everything. I was very busy with the babies and the Russian girl. And just like at the end of the Six Flags, we were just getting snatches of it. But Marina wanted to know, "Mama, I want see Lee." She was hoping Lee would come on the picture, like he did. So this morning, Sunday morning, I said, "Oh, honey, let's turn the television off. The same thing over and over."

And I turned the television off. So Marina and I did not see what happened to my son.

We had the television off.

So we did not know.

But frantically Robert and Mr. Gregory kept insisting that we pack and run.

So when we get downstairs, here was Secret Service men all over.

Mr. Rankin. Now, before you leave that, what did Robert say about the story about the picture, when you told him that? Did he say anything?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He and Mr. Gregory both didn't want to listen to me. I told them, but they didn't want to hear my story. They wanted to get us out of here.

Mr. Rankin. They didn't say anything about it?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, not that I can recall. And I don't believe they did. They didn't want to hear what I had to say. They kept fussing at me and saying "Mother, stop talking. Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here."

I kept saying, "All we have been doing is run from one place to the other. The diapers are wet."

I was kind of having my way about this.

So when we get downstairs, there is Secret Service all around.

I am ahead of my story.

Robert went downstairs to pay the bill, and that is when I gave Robert the money, and it was a $50 bill that the Life representative had given to me. They gave me some money. I took it out——

Mr. Rankin. That is the first time you looked at it?

Mrs. Oswald. The first time I looked at it, sir. I charged the food, and I had no need for money. Wait a minute—I am wrong. Yes.

Representative Ford. Mrs. Oswald—didn't you say you had washed your uniform?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Representative Ford. When you washed your uniform, didn't you——

Mrs. Oswald. Just a minute, if you let me explain. I just said I was wrong. The first time—it was Puerto Rican that brought the dinner in. We needed baby lotion for the baby. And then I took the bill out and I saw it was a $50 bill, because he went to the drug store—I gave him the $50 bill, this Puerto Rican, that brought the food in—the first food we had—to go to the drug store and pay for the necessities that Marina and I needed—really it was for the baby, the lotion and everything. And he came back and the drug store was closed—it was on a Sunday. And so I did know about the $50 bill before this time.

And then when Robert came, I gave Robert the $50 bill and he went downstairs to pay the bill.

Now, the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert used the $50 to pay the bill. The bill was not paid. So we were really stranded. Those men left two women stranded.

Now, let me see if there is anything I have forgotten.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you put the $50 after the Puerto Rican brought it back?

Mrs. Oswald. In my uniform pocket, because that was all the clothes I had. I kept it in my pocket.

Mr. Rankin. When you washed your uniform——

Mrs. Oswald. I naturally took it out of my pocket to wash my uniform, because I stated I gave Robert the $50 bill to pay the hotel. But that was all the clothes I had. You have to visualize that all of this is really rush business. We are doing all this in a hurry.

So I didn't even put it in my pocketbook. And I would not be the type to put it in my pocketbook, because it is a $50 bill and all the money I have to get out of the hotel—I don't know if I am going to get help—so I want to keep it on my person, just like I keep my important papers right now on my person.

I took it out of my pocket to wash the uniform, I know. This can be proven by the bellhop who brought the food. And he went to the drug store, and the drug store was closed on Sunday. And we did not get the lotion. And I gave him the $50 bill to buy the things with.

Mr. Rankin. And then after you paid the bill there——

Mrs. Oswald. Robert paid the bill.

Mr. Rankin. What happened next?

Mrs. Oswald. Nothing was said about the bill. I didn't know then that the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert took the $50 and checked us out. Then the Secret Service——

Mr. Dulles. Could we have the time when you checked out?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—approximately 11:30 to 12 o'clock, on Sunday.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us the amount of the bill?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Since then I have called Robert and Robert said the amount of the bill was 40-some-odd dollars—about $48, I believe. That is what Robert told me. I have no way of knowing, otherwise than what Robert told me.

And I would think so. If I remember correctly the rooms were $17.50. I told you before that they put us in exclusive suites, and two. And the rooms were $17.50. And we had some meals. So that would make it about 40-some-odd dollars.

Mr. Rankin. And then after Robert checked you out, what happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Then Robert got in a car with Secret Service, and then Marina and I and Mr. Gregory were in another car, with two Secret Service agents in the front.

Mr. Rankin. And did you go someplace?

Mrs. Oswald. Here comes me again. They wanted to take us—as soon as we got in the car Mr. Gregory says, "We are taking you to Robert's mother-in-law's house."

Now, they live out of Boyd, Tex., in the country. Boyd, Tex., is a little bit of country town. But they live in a little farm house. They are dairy people—Robert's in-laws. And they wanted to take us there, which would have been approximately 45 miles from Dallas.

And I said, "No, you are not taking me out in the sticks, in the country. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."

"Well, for security reasons, this is the best place. Nobody would ever find it."

I said, "Security reasons? You can give security for me in a hotel room in town. I am not going out in this little country town. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."

And so I am not being well liked, because all the arrangements was made, that we were going to go to this little farm house. But I would not go.

I could not survive if I was 40 or 50 miles away and my son was picked up as a murderer. I had to be right there in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Now, this was after——

Mrs. Oswald. When they left the Executive Inn, when we got in the car.

Mr. Rankin. And this was after your son was killed?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, yes, but they didn't know this.

Mr. Rankin. And Robert didn't know that?

Mrs. Oswald. They kept it from us—I guess being women. Marina and I did not even know he was shot.

I will go on to that story and tell you. No, sir, we did not know.

Mr. Rankin. The Secret Service people didn't tell you either?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; nothing was said. They wanted us for security reasons——

Mr. Dulles. If the time is 11:30——

Mr. Rankin. They left at 12 or 12:30, I thought.

Mr. Dulles. You said 11:30 to 12.

Mrs. Oswald. Approximately that time.

Mr. Dulles. It might not have taken place.

Mrs. Oswald. I know Lee was shot. But at this time I am telling you I don't know this.

This has to go in sequence, sir. Lee was shot, or else we wouldn't have had all these Secret Service men around. But I know then after that Lee was shot. Not now—I do not know this.

Are there any questions? I am willing to answer anything you want to ask.

If you will bear with me, I can go into——

Mr. Rankin. Did you later learn at what time of that Sunday he was shot?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Rankin. You never did?

Mrs. Oswald. Not until about 3 days later. That is what I was telling you about Six Flags. I am trying to explain to you why I don't know these things is because we did not sit down and watch television and read papers. Marina and I—I had two sick babies there. There was a doctor coming in twice a day. I was a very busy woman. And the men were not telling us anything. They were not interested in us.

Mr. Rankin. Now, after you told them that you wanted to stay in a hotel, you could be protected there, what happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Then, of course, nothing was said that they were going to give me my way. But we needed clothes—Marina and the baby needed clothes. So then they decided that they should go to Irving, through my suggestion and so on, and pick up clothes for Marina and the baby, because we were short on diapers. So they are going to Irving.

We got to Irving. There is police cars all around. So that is why I feel sure my son was shot.

Mr. Rankin. How far away is that from this Executive Inn?

Mrs. Oswald. I would think—now, this is just hearsay. But I would think it is about 12 to 15 or 18 miles.

When we reached there, they brought us to the chief of police's home. And there were cars all around.

As soon as the car stopped, the Secret Service agent said, "Lee has been shot."

And I said, "How badly?"

He said, "In the shoulder."

They brought Marina into the house.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him how he knew that?

Mrs. Oswald. It came over—I thought he had the radio in the car, Secret Serviceman, and he had talked to someone. This was all set up, sir, and I can prove to you. They didn't want us to know. They are now telling us this, Marina and I.

He talked, and then he turned around and said, "Lee has been shot."

I said, "How badly?"

He said, "In the shoulder."

I cried, and said, "Marina, Lee has been shot."

So Marina went into the chief of police's at Irving home, to call Mrs. Paine, to get the diapers and things ready. They decided and told us, with me in the car and Marina, that it would not be a good thing for us to go to Mrs. Paine's home and get these things, that Marina should go in the chief of police's home and call and tell Mrs. Paine what she wanted.

And one or two of the agents would go and get the things for Marina.

So I am sitting in the car with the agent. Marina is in the home now—remember.

So something comes over the mike, and the Secret Service agent says, "Do not repeat. Do not repeat."

I said, "My son is gone isn't he?"

And he didn't answer.

I said, "Answer me. I want to know. If my son is gone, I want to meditate."

He said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, your son has just expired."

Mr. Rankin. Now, which agent told you this?

Mrs. Oswald. This is the agent that was also now sent to me to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.—Mr. Mike Howard, who was the agent that rode in the car with President Johnson, who was the agent that was at Six Flags, that was in charge, who was the agent that was assigned to protect Baine Johnson at the dormitory. He is also the same agent that was sent to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Rankin. Now, who was the other agent that was with you that day? Was there another Secret Service agent with you?

Mrs. Oswald. He went into the home—he escorted Marina into the chief of police's home, and I do not know his name. And he is not the other agent that I want to know the name of.

Wait just a minute.

I don't know this man's name. But he is not the other agent that is involved.

Mr. Rankin. Now, about what time on that Sunday did you learn of your son's death?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, now, here is your time element. I said Robert and Mr. Gregory and the Secret Service were there approximately from 11:30. And I knew nothing about the shooting. And then we had to go to Irving and everything. Then they told us Lee was shot. So now we are bringing up to the time—it all fits in—which was 1 o'clock or 1:30.

As a matter of fact, then when I got the news, I went into the home, and I said, "Marina, our boy is gone."

We both cried. And they were all watching the sequence on television. The television was turned to the back, where Marina and I could not see it. They sat us on the sofa, and his wife gave us coffee. And the back of the television was to us. And the men and all, a lot of men were looking at the television. It probably just happened, because the man said, "Do not repeat." And I insisted.

They gave us coffee.

And then it later came out in the paper that—a story about the chief of police, how it was set up for the women, that we should not know.

We were to go to his house. There was a story about that from this chief of police of Irving.

Mr. Rankin. What paper is that?

Mrs. Oswald. The Star Telegram paper.

All of my papers were taken out of my home by Secret Service men. While at Six Flags, they saved the papers for me. We would not let the maids take the papers. And I brought all of those papers from the Six Flags, from the very beginning, to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. And every piece of paper out of my home was taken. So I did not—believe me, gentlemen, this seems strange, but it was 2 weeks later before I saw the picture of the way my son was shot.

Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram gave me the back issues of papers. And it wasn't until then that I actually knew the tragedy, how my son was shot. Because they took all the papers, all my clippings and everything. I was left stranded, without any papers. And until Mr. Blair Justice brought me these back issues, some 2 weeks later, was the first time that I saw exactly the tragic way my son was shot.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any discussion between you and Marina about this?

Mrs. Oswald. About the shooting?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. No. We didn't know. I was with Marina at the Executive Inn from the 22d until the shooting, the 24th—as I told you.

Then we left. And from the 24th to the 28th, at the Inn of the Six Flags, the agents and my son kept this from us. We did not know. We knew Lee was shot and dead. But we didn't know how. We didn't get to read a paper or watch television. We just had snatches of the television.

Mr. Rankin. Well, when you both learned that he was shot on that Sunday afternoon, did you and Marina say anything to each other?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes. That is another story.

Immediately I said, "I want to see Lee." And Marina said, "I want see Lee, too."

And the chief of police and Mr. Gregory said, "Well, it would be better to wait until he was at the funeral home and fixed up."

I said, "No, I want to see Lee now."

Marina said, "Me, too, me want to see Lee."

They led us to believe that now they have taught her to do like this. But Marina has always spoken like that. I have acted as an interpreter for her, as I stated before, for an FBI agent. And she understood me. And he was satisfied that he didn't need an interpreter.

So she said, "I want to see Lee, too."

They didn't want us to see Lee, from the ugliness of it evidently. But I insisted, and so did Marina. So they could not do anything about it with the two women. So they decided to pacify us.

We got in the car. On the way in the car they are trying to get us to change our minds. And he said, Mr. Mike Howard—he was driving the car—"Mrs. Oswald for security reasons it would be much better if you would wait until later on to see Lee because this is a big thing."

I said, "For security reasons I want you to know that I am an American citizen, and even though I am poor I have as much right as any other human being, and Mrs. Kennedy was escorted to the hospital to see her husband. And I insist upon being escorted, and enough security to take me to the hospital to see my son."

Gentlemen, I require the same privilege.

So Mr. Mike Howard said, "All right, we will take you to the hospital.

"I want you to know when we get there we will not be able to protect you. Our security measures end right there. The police will then have you under protection. We cannot protect you."

I said, "That is fine. If I am to die, I will die that way. But I am going to see my son."

Mr. Gregory says—and in the most awful tone of voice, I will always remember this—remember, gentlemen, my son has been accused, I have just lost a son.

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are being so selfish. You are endangering this girl's life, and the life of these two children."

I want to elaborate on this. He is not thinking about me. He is thinking about the Russian girl. I am going to bring this over and over—that these Russian people are always considering this Russian girl. He snapped at me.

I said, "Mr. Gregory, I am not talking for my daughter-in-law. She can do what she wants. I am saying I want to see my son."

And so they brought us to the hospital. And Marina said, "I too want to see Lee."

After Mr. Gregory said that—"I, too, want to see Lee."

So then they did leave us at the entrance of the hospital, the Secret Service men, and then the police took over. We were escorted by the police in the hospital.

Mr. Rankin. About what time was that?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I would not think it would be more than between 2 and 3 o'clock.

Mr. Rankin. Sunday afternoon?

Mrs. Oswald. Sunday, November 24th.

Mr. Rankin. And then what happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Then Mr. Perry, the doctor, came down. We were escorted into a room. And he came in. He said, "Now, you know the Texas law is that we have to have an autopsy on a body."

I said, "Yes, I understand."

And Marina understood.

Marina is a registered pharmacist.

So Marina understands these things. And Marina understood.

And he said, "Now, I will do whatever you ladies wish. I understand that you wish to see the body. However, I will say this. It will not be pleasant. All the blood has drained from him, and it would be much better if you would see him after he was fixed up."

I said, "I am a nurse. I have seen death before. I want to see my son now."

Marina—as I am trying to say, she understands English—she said, "I want to see Lee, too." So she knew what the doctor was saying.

We were escorted upstairs into a room. They said it was a morgue, but it wasn't. Lee's body was on a hospital bed, I would say, or a table—a table like you take into an operating room. And there were a lot of policemen standing around, guarding the body. And, of course, his face was showing. And Marina went first. She opened his eyelids. Now, to me—I am a nurse, and I don't think I could have done that. This is a very, very strong girl, that she can open a dead man's eyelids. And she says, "He cry. He eye wet." To the doctor. And the doctor said, "Yes."

Well, I know that the fluid leaves, and you do have moisture. So I didn't even touch Lee. I just wanted to see that it was my son.

So on the way, leaving the body in the room—I am in the room——

Mr. Rankin. You were satisfied it was your son?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. That is why I wanted to see the body. I wanted to make sure it was my son.

So while leaving the room, I said to the police—"I think some day you will hang your heads in shame."

I said, "I happen to know, and know some facts, that maybe this is the unsung hero of this episode. And I, as his mother, intend to provide this if I can."

And, with that, I left the room.

Then we were escorted into a room downstairs, and introduced to the chaplain. I have asked several reporters to give me the chaplain's name, because I wanted to have all this information for you. But you have to realize I just knew Thursday. And I have three times as many papers as I have here. So it has been a chore for me to do all of this. But that is easy to find out—the name of the chaplain at Parkland Hospital. So I asked to speak to the chaplain in private. So I spoke to the chaplain in private, and I told him that I thought my son was an agent, and that I wanted him to talk to Robert. Robert does not listen to me, never has, and I have had very, very little conversation with Robert, ever since Robert has joined the Marines, because of the way our life has intervened.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell the chaplain why you thought your son was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, but this is what I told the chaplain. No—I am always thinking of my country, the security of my country before I would say anything like that.

And I told you why I told the FBI men, because of the money involved, and I didn't know how the public would take this, because they helped a Marxist.

So I didn't tell him. But I did say I wanted him to talk to Robert, because we financially were in very poor straits. And then I wanted my son buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Now, gentlemen, I didn't know that President Kennedy was going to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. All I know is that my son is an agent, and that he deserves to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. So I talked to the chaplain about this. I went into quite detail about this. I asked him if he would talk to Robert, because when I talked to Robert about it, as soon as I started to say something he would say, "Oh, Mother, forget it."

So I asked the chaplain to talk to Robert about Lee being buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Mr. Rankin. Did he report to you about it?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. But he did call Robert in. We were getting ready. The police were getting ready to escort us out of his office, and he said, "If you don't mind, I would like to talk to Robert Oswald just a minute."

So he brought Robert into the room he had taken me, and stayed in there a little while with Robert. So I feel sure that the chaplain relayed my message to him, because we were getting ready to leave, and he asked the police if he could talk to Robert.

Mr. Rankin. The chaplain never told you anything more about it?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I have not seen the chaplain since.

Mr. Rankin. Did Robert say anything about it?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.

Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.

Mr. Rankin. Is Robert left handed?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed.

Mr. Rankin. Is John Pic left handed?

Mrs. Oswald. No, John is not.

Mr. Rankin. But you are?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand.

But Lee was more left handed than I am.

I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But Lee was left handed.

Mr. Rankin. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed?

Mrs. Oswald. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No—I am the left handed one. I would say no.

Now, there is another story. And we have stories galore, believe me—with documents and everything.

A gun will be involved in this story, that Lee had bought. But I don't want to confuse the committee. That is another part that we will have to go into, that I will have to lead up to. The only way I can do this and not forget things is to do the way I am doing it. And if you have any questions, if you feel the story I have told so far—I would like to know, myself, if I have forgotten anything.

It is awfully hard for me to remember everything. If you want to question me, I am more than happy, if I know the facts, to give them to you.

Mr. Rankin. Well, you go ahead and tell us in your own way.

Mrs. Oswald. May I have some fresh water, please?

Mr. Rankin. You have never told us about the Walker matter. Did you know something about that?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't know about that.

The Chairman. You are going to let her finish this other, are you not?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't know about that until it came out in the paper. But I have a story on that.

Mr. Rankin. You want to finish this incident about the gun you are talking about?

Mrs. Oswald. About Robert knowing about the gun—I have already said that.

About Lee being left handed, and he and Robert going squirrel hunting.

Mr. Rankin. You said there was another gun matter.

Mrs. Oswald. That is a long, long story.

The Chairman. I think she has gotten to the point——

Mrs. Oswald. I got to the point. I finished this story, really, don't you think—about the gun?

The Chairman. I don't know.

Mrs. Oswald. I think about Robert knowing Lee was left handed.

The Chairman. Has anything happened since that, that you care to call to our attention, things that you know about?

Mrs. Oswald. On the particular story that I have said this morning—you mean of Lee?

This is where it gets confusing.

Representative Ford. Where did you go after the Parkland Hospital? What happened then?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes. This is interesting.

After the Parkland Hospital, then this Mike Howard said, "Well, what we will do, we have a place, and this is where we will take them."

And they took us to the Inn of the Six Flags, which is on the outskirts of Arlington, Tex. They took us there.

And I am assuming that it is a Secret Service hideout or something, because they had made no arrangements or anything. We just were welcomed right in the Inn. They knew where to go.

Mr. Rankin. What happened there?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, now, Mr. Rankin, that is so important—if we are going to recess, I am going to ask not to start that story, because that is a very long, important story to this Commission.

Mr. Dulles. How far is that from Dallas—the Six Flags Inn?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, it is in between Dallas and Fort Worth, Tex. It is near Arlington, Tex.

The Chairman. We will recess now until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)