TESTIMONY OF MRS. EVA GRANT (continued 3)

Mr. Hubert. It was a one-sided conversation, I take it?

Mrs. Grant. Practically.

Mr. Hubert. And the essence and the gist of the conversation was that if Mr. Belli did not leave town he would be injured?

Mrs. Grant. The voice said something like this, “Mrs. Grant?” I says, “Yes.” He said, “If Melvin Belli knows what’s good for him, he had better leave town. They are going to kill him.” Now, I don’t know—this man didn’t sound like a child and he didn’t sound like an imbecile.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him who he meant by “they”?

Mrs. Grant. I’ll tell you the truth, I was so shocked at the verdict, and before I knew it he was off—I was hanging on the phone there by myself.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate to you in any way who “they” were?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or who was going to kill him?

Mrs. Grant. No. Oh, now I want to tell you about—going back to Monday, which would be the 16th, there was conversation and, of course, I think I heard this Sunday too.

Mr. Hubert. That’s March 16?

Mrs. Grant. I think March 16 was on a Monday.

Mr. Hubert. That’s correct.

Mrs. Grant. But I may have heard this Sunday, that the sheriff—and there has been threats against Belli—and this is another thing I know, whether someone is on my phone and leaked it out—it wasn’t me, that the sheriff is going to give Belli a guard out of town, that he has been threatened, but I already knew that. Then, I got to thinking about all of this and I says, “I hope he leaves, I don’t want to have this on my mind,” but, I knew when I was in his suite of rooms—somebody called there Monday afternoon sometime and he went to the phone for a minute; as a rule someone else was answering the phone, and then he went in the bedroom there and he answered the phone. He had quite a suite of rooms—three rooms, I think, and the remark among the people there—they said the sheriff is going to give him a guard, you know, escort him out of town.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you heard that that afternoon.

Mrs. Grant. Too, but it wasn’t—I already had known that from the conversation Saturday afternoon, it didn’t look good.

Mr. Hubert. Did he comment upon this telephone call that he answered himself?

Mrs. Grant. No; he hardly did any talking that afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you mentioned the telephone call, I wonder why you did so, that is to say, what import you had put on it?

Mrs. Grant. You want to know the truth?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; I want to know the truth.

Mrs. Grant. I was not thinking anything about it but he is coming back for a trial and I told Phil recently, I thought he was going to get his trial transferred from the Texas Bar Association and I guess he can’t. I wasn’t going to say anything about it—I figured—he’s never coming back, but now I am a little scared. I wouldn’t like anything—look, you don’t want a lawyer in a case?

Mr. Hubert. Let me finish about this phone call—is there any other significance to that phone call that you heard him answer? You mentioned it in connection with this.

Mrs. Grant. It didn’t look right when he left—left the phone.

Mr. Hubert. That’s just an impression, though, he didn’t say anything to indicate the nature of it?

Mrs. Grant. No; no.

Mr. Hubert. You indicated that perhaps, I say—you indicated—the way you brought it up—it could be inferred perhaps that it was also a threatening phone call?

Mrs. Grant. No, no; I didn’t mean that at all.

Mr. Hubert. But, do you know that to be a fact?

Mrs. Grant. No, no; this was merely that the sheriff said he was going to escort him out of town.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think it was the sheriff on the phone?

Mrs. Grant. It could be—that’s what I felt, and shortly after this there was another phone call came in and he went in and he took the call.

Mr. Hubert. When you said the rumor or talk was that the sheriff was going to escort him out of town, I assumed you meant he was going to give him protection, is that what you meant?

Mrs. Grant. That’s what I mean, so he doesn’t get hurt. Maybe the sheriff knows something about this, although he does know—I don’t know. I only know I was too sick after the verdict to even think about anything, but now that I know he’s coming back, I asked Phil, I said, “Do you think he’s coming back?” And he says, “Yes; he’s coming back.”

Mr. Hubert. Mrs. Grant or Mr. Burleson, do you have any other matter I have touched upon that you would like to bring up at this time?

Mr. Burleson. I would like to go into some of these things you have just questioned her about.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Burleson. Right at first, Mr. Tom Howard did go down and talk to Jack on Sunday the 24th?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Burleson. And did get a writ of habeas corpus, I believe?

Mrs. Grant. I know nothing of the court procedures of that date.

Mr. Burleson. You don’t know that Judge Brown did set a bond on assault with intent to commit murder upon Lee Harvey Oswald before this hearing?

Mrs. Grant. I understand it was filed in Richardson. I may be wrong. Someone told me that, that they did file a murder charge against Oswald.

Mr. Burleson. Before Oswald was pronounced dead, did you know anything about Judge Joe B. Brown setting bond and granting a writ to let Jack out on assault with intent to commit murder?

Mrs. Grant. I honestly——

Mr. Burleson. Do you or not?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t.

Mr. Burleson. Then, subsequently, Mr. Howard had myself go up and talk to Jack—you learned that, did you not?

Mrs. Grant. I learned there were about three or four or five attorneys that went up and talked to Jack.

Mr. Burleson. Then, Mr. Belli came in town and at the time, did you hear from Mr. Tonahill?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. He called you in the middle of the night, I believe?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. And did he tell you that he and Mr. Belli were together?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Burleson. Did he just mention himself?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. What did he say?

Mrs. Grant. He asked me if I had hired an attorney and I said, “I think Earl got somebody.” And they were discussing it with Percy Foreman, but I was wrong. They never got to Percy Foreman because Tom Howard never called him.

Mr. Burleson. Then Melvin Belli did come in town and met with Mr. Tom Howard and Mr. Tonahill?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And stayed out at the Cabana Hotel, I believe, the motel out on Stemmons Freeway?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I was never at that hotel to visit them—I can’t remember.

Mr. Burleson. Earl was in town at the same time Mr. Belli was in town?

Mrs. Grant. I think you are right there—that they were all over there—Earl was there for a couple of days but I didn’t go there.

Mr. Burleson. Then Mr. Belli went down and talked with Jack prior to the time and he said that he would accept the case, do you remember that?

Mrs. Grant. I’m sure he did.

Mr. Burleson. And after talking to Jack, do you remember he said he would accept the case at that time?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Burleson, may I make this suggestion—of course, this is not a court hearing, on the other hand, for the sake of the value of the testimony, I think if you wouldn’t lead her so much that the testimony might have more weight.

Mrs. Grant. Well, I’ll tell you, my mind—I’m just about out of my mind.

Mr. Burleson. Yes. Do you know if that is when I became active in the case—at that time?

Mrs. Grant. I think you came in about—it seems to me—about a week after this incident—it seems to me that’s when I first met you.

Mr. Burleson. And do you know if Mr. Belli brought any attorneys with him from California?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Do you know who that was?

Mrs. Grant. I know he brought Samuel Brody.

Mr. Burleson. Now, after this, there was a bond hearing, I believe; is that correct?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And who sat at the counsel table with Mr. Ruby, your brother?

Mrs. Grant. I know you were there and I know Mr. Brody and Tonahill, Mr. Belli—I think Tom Howard was there right along then.

Mr. Burleson. And then, that actually was on one occasion or on two occasions that that bond hearing was held; or do you recall?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me a couple of times—maybe more than that.

Mr. Burleson. Then bond was denied?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. Then, at the time of the change of venue, do you know who the attorneys were at that time?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me the same group were still there.

Mr. Burleson. Do you recall about that time if anything occurred in connection with Tom Howard and his connection with the case?

Mrs. Grant. About the picture?

Mr. Burleson. No; just about whether or not he continued in the case or did he?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me at that time—he was leaking information to the district attorney’s office, he was in the way of Mr. Belli and Mr. Tonahill—at least they felt that or they told me that. We had found a mistrust in him, which is close to that time as I can remember, where information has come to us that Tom Howard is trying to sell a picture of the late President Kennedy being shot and half of his skull is in the air, to Life magazine, and I think Billy Woodfield had told that to Earl and Earl told me to get ahold of the Secret Service, they came out to see me and Elmer Moore, and another gentleman—I cannot think of the other gentleman’s name—he probably could recall—and we went in the alley because I don’t know if my place is bugged or not, and the Secret Service stepped in to either squash the sale of this particular picture or got ahold of it—the films and everything, and, of course, when Belli found out, he was sick because he said it don’t look right for an attorney representing a person to do something like this.

Mr. Burleson. All right. Anyway—somewhere around there——

Mr. Hubert. May I examine her just a little on that point?

Mr. Burleson. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever find out whether it was true that Mr. Howard was doing this?

Mrs. Grant. Well, since then I heard it was true, but doubly true there’s some girl that works for one of your departments who heard and who told another person that there is evidence there is a picture of that kind in existence.

Mr. Hubert. You have never seen the picture?

Mrs. Grant. No; I haven’t. I also heard several days before the assassination there was a pamphlet put in all the drugstores where you sell magazines and was distributed all through the city of Dallas with the late President’s picture, and the top of its says, “Wanted” and the bottom had a number like a jailman, you know, a convict, and the day of the assassination, early that afternoon these distributors had a devil of a time trying to remember all the places they placed that particular pamphlet, that was for sale for 10 cents or 15 cents.

Mr. Burleson. Come back up to his question.

Mr. Hubert. I just wanted to explore whether or not it had come to your knowledge whether the story was the truth or not?

Mrs. Grant. This all came to me—call me back on the word “communism” that I said later on, if you want?

Mr. Burleson. Do you know anything else about this alleged sale of the picture?

Mrs. Grant. Nothing, but Earl told me to get ahold of the men here and I did and I called the office and Elmer Moore came out and I told him.

Mr. Burleson. All right. Coming back—along about this time—did you, Earl, and Stanley Kaufman and so forth enter into some kind of a contract with Mr. Howard where he would withdraw from the case?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Did you pay him some money?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; the first week he was in, I had a little money and I think it was when I sold the Vegas Club and I think I had $1,600 and I had bills to pay but I didn’t pay them and I gave him $200.

Mr. Burleson. At the time that you terminated his services in the case, did you pay him some money then?

Mrs. Grant. We gave him a check for $2,000—we gave him $2,700 altogether, but I gave him $2,000 when he signed the contract to step out of the case.

Mr. Burleson. Now, when the change of venue hearing started——

Mrs. Grant. By the way, when I say “I gave him”—that money came also out of the $23,000.

Mr. Burleson. Now, when the change of venue started and the picking of the jury followed, who were the attorneys then that were sitting there at the counsel table?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Belli, Tonahill and yourself—I don’t remember—I think Sam Brody was sick and went home. However, Mr. Belli brought in a young gentleman who came and sat for a while.

Mr. Burleson. Could that have been Mr. Bill Choulous?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And that was out of Mr. Belli’s office?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. Then, when it got into the actual trial of the case after the change of venue lasted about a week, who were the attorneys then during the picking of the jury?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Mr. Burleson, Mr. Joe Tonahill, and Mr. Belli did all the work from picking the jury and through the trial.

Mr. Burleson. The three of them?

Mrs. Grant. The three of them.

Mr. Burleson. And they continued on through the trial?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And they were the only ones sitting with Jack Ruby at the time of the verdict?

Mrs. Grant. You know, I was not in the courtroom all during the trial. They kept me out in the lobby, but I do know—that is what I heard or saw.

Mr. Burleson. Now, within a week after the verdict came in, did you write a letter to Mr. Belli dismissing him from the case or asking him to withdraw, one or the other?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. You told him in the letter—what?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I couldn’t reach him by telephone and since he’s traveling around, and I’m——

Mr. Burleson. What did you tell him in the letter?

Mrs. Grant. Say it again?

Mr. Burleson. Did you tell him in effect if he didn’t resign you would fire him?

Mrs. Grant. Well, yes; words to that effect.

Mr. Burleson. In other words, he did resign?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I think that letter was published in the press, was it not?

Mrs. Grant. No—I never gave it to them. If it was, it shouldn’t be, because we only made three copies, the original went to him and one to Mr. Burleson and one to Tonahill. I didn’t want any more copies around—I didn’t want that—that was one of the things that bothered me.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t know, ma’am, I had the impression that I had seen that letter through seeing a copy of it in the press.

Mrs. Grant. If you did—I didn’t see it here, or we didn’t, and we would have known it.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t know—I may be mistaken.

Mrs. Grant. That is one thing—that’s the whole thing—the whole case was tried in the papers.

Mr. Burleson. Now, after that you were feeling pretty low and sick at that time, weren’t you?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Did your family—Earl and Sam and sisters go down to Houston and talk to Mr. Percy Foreman?

Mrs. Grant. They did.

Mr. Burleson. Was a contract drawn up at that time?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; there was.

Mr. Burleson. Did Mr. Foreman know you had Jack Ruby’s power of attorney?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know what they told him but it was well indicated that I was now controlling. I took over Earl Ruby’s power.

Mr. Burleson. What did Mr. Foreman do as to whether or not he made any announcements as to whether he was the attorney?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he immediately called in the press. He immediately stated what he wanted, he took pictures of my family and he said he wanted $5,000 within 10 days and another $5,000 30 days following the 10 days.

Mr. Burleson. Did he come to Dallas shortly thereafter?

Mrs. Grant. The following week, I think, he came to Dallas—it wasn’t that weekend, it was the following weekend—am I right—or was it that week?

Mr. Burleson. That week—I think they went down there, if I might help you a little bit, about Monday.

Mrs. Grant. He came down on a Saturday—I did not see him, but I spoke with him over the phone. I thought he asked too much money. He wanted power of attorney and I wasn’t happy about the contract, because these contracts have a——

Mr. Burleson. You had not signed a contract?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Burleson. Anyway, he went and visited Jack?

Mrs. Grant. And he wanted Jack to come downstairs to take pictures with him and our civil attorney, Stanley Marcus——

Mr. Burleson. Do you mean Stanley Kaufman?

Mrs. Grant. Stanley Kaufman, pardon me, wouldn’t permit it. He said “This is one of the reasons Mrs. Grant and her family didn’t want Belli in the picture. There has been too much newspaper publicity, radio, and television. He couldn’t be hurt any worse and there is no sense of you getting into this widespread publicity,” and Mr. Foreman and Mr. Kaufman got into some squabble there and Mr. Kaufman left heated, I understand, and Mr. Percy Foreman called me later that afternoon that he was coming out to see me in the evening. He heard I had a doctor and I was sick. He didn’t show up.

Mr. Burleson. Did he make arrangements to meet you the next morning?

Mrs. Grant. He did.

Mr. Burleson. Monday morning?

Mrs. Grant. At 9:30.

Mr. Burleson. Where?

Mrs. Grant. In the lobby of his hotel—the Statler.

Mr. Burleson. Did you come down?

Mrs. Grant. I came down.

Mr. Burleson. With whom?

Mrs. Grant. With my sister Eileen.

Mr. Burleson. Did you meet him?

Mrs. Grant. I met Mr. Burleson and Mr. Tonahill and we waited, and we went upstairs and waited—we ordered some coffee and a roll and we waited there about an hour and 40 minutes. The telephone rang and a news commentator was on the phone and Mr. Burleson answered it and Mr. Burleson was shocked from what he heard on the phone, that Mr. Percy Foreman, instead of coming down to his own room to see us, he went to the newspaper office somewhere or television or radio—I have no idea, and made a public display of himself, that he is withdrawing from the case. He indicated that he didn’t get along with the family and he didn’t like our attorney—our civil attorney.

Mr. Burleson. Did you at any time see him personally?

Mrs. Grant. I never met him personally.

Mr. Burleson. He then got out of the case and hasn’t had anything to do with it since?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Burleson. Then, shortly thereafter, did you have an opportunity to have a conference with Dr. Hubert Winston Smith?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I did.

Mr. Burleson. And did you, Jack, and everybody sign a contract with Dr. Hubert Smith?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Employing him as chief counsel?

Mrs. Grant. Yes—as chief counsel.

Mr. Burleson. And keeping Mr. Tonahill and myself on?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Burleson. Subsequent to that time, did your brother up in Chicago talk to a Mr. Charles Bellows?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Mr. Bellows knew about this case right along because members of the family have known him for 20 or 30 years. I have never known him—I have heard of him—they went to him, and it’s got so sick and sickening here that Earl decided, as a friend, he could help us and he is in the background.

Mr. Burleson. Would you say he is in more an advisory capacity?

Mrs. Grant. Just as a good family friend, and he is, I understand, a very fine great criminal lawyer and he wants to help.

Mr. Hubert. And you are speaking of the present as well as the past?

Mrs. Grant. In the past he didn’t intercede because he figured Belli would be capable. Not that—now, wait a minute—I don’t mean to say that they are not—it’s just after there is so much to it and he has heard how the case was handled, and since Earl went to him.

Mr. Burleson. And Mr. Bellows did make one trip down to Dallas?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; he did.

Mr. Burleson. And stayed a matter of hours and then flew on back?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. So that to get back to what we wanted to answer the question he asked you earlier—who are the present attorneys now?

Mrs. Grant. Phil Burleson, who is doing most of the work, Mr. Joe Tonahill, Mr. Hubert Winston Smith, and Mr. Charles Bellows.

Mr. Burleson. And Bellows is in an advisory capacity to help any way he can?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right. I’m sorry I forgot about some of them.

Mr. Burleson. Now, going to this money situation—as far as you know, recognizing that you are under oath—as far as you know, there were no contributions of any large sum other than the one $250 that you have talked about.

Mrs. Grant. That was the largest and the one and only of that kind.

Mr. Burleson. Have you heard rumors that the Ruby defense fund received large sums?

Mrs. Grant. I have heard they got—I think they’ve got close to a thousand dollars—I may be wrong.

Mr. Burleson. I mean, have you heard rumors for instance, not too long ago I heard a rumor that Stanley Marcus gave $25,000; have you heard rumors similar to that?

Mrs. Grant. I have heard many of those kind by different people but we haven’t received it.

Mr. Burleson. You know nothing about any such large sum?

Mrs. Grant. (Shaking head so as to indicate a negative reply.)

Mr. Hubert. She is shaking her head—the answer is “no”.

Mrs. Grant. Oh. I’m sorry; no.

Mr. Burleson. Mainly, the only things you know about personally or have heard about from other members of the family are the sale to the magazine of the story, which you have told us about, and the small amount you have told us about?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And you know of no organization that has given any sum?

Mrs. Grant. Not that I know—they may be now—Earl is trying to talk to some organizations that he belongs to like B’nai B’rith, that he used to belong to—I don’t know. This is what I know—what I told you.

Mr. Burleson. All right, but you don’t know of any—say—labor unions or civic clubs or anything like that that have given any money?

Mrs. Grant. I’m sure—I’m sure they haven’t. In fact, wait a minute—Michael Levin, another good friend of the family—we know him only for 45 years and he’s my older brother’s friend since they were 14 years old and he has compiled a letter and is asking certain individuals that he knows—doctors, lawyers, big business people—to contribute, and when I talked to Eileen last, which was Saturday, she said, “We didn’t receive one—” some of them don’t even answer the letters and some say they haven’t got it or something else.

Mr. Burleson. Now, there were some reports in the newspapers concerning the fact that Dr. Hubert Winston Smith was going to raise a lot of money.

Mrs. Grant. Well, we hope he’s going to raise a lot of money—we hope he can raise sufficient money to cover legal fees. He’s interested in an academy institute of law and science.

Mr. Burleson. Have you received any money from Dr. Winston Smith?

Mrs. Grant. No; and I don’t think he’s gotten anything or even worked on it yet.

Mr. Burleson. Now, to clarify my position in the thing—you have paid me, the family has paid me a total for everything, somewhere in the neighborhood of $700 or $800 or $900?

Mrs. Grant. At the most—that’s right.

Mr. Burleson. You are trying to get more together, though, aren’t you?

Mrs. Grant. Well, now, wait a minute—Belli was supposed to pay out of that $13,000—$2,000—I asked him what he was going to pay you. He didn’t pay you?

Mr. Burleson. Right.

Mrs. Grant. As he told me.

Mr. Burleson. Right.

Mrs. Grant. And I know he didn’t pay you—that was up until the time he didn’t pay you at that time.

Mr. Burleson. But I have entered into a verbal contract with you and the other members of the family for you to compensate me on the appeal and things of that nature—right?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. I’m through, as far as I am concerned, on that point. Now, is there anything other than what we have talked about here that you want to clarify further——

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I want to clarify——

Mr. Burleson. Wait, let me finish—or do you think that we haven’t talked about anything that you feel like is important that you would like to state at this time?

Mrs. Grant. We have never received money from any unethical organization, labor work, gratis, friends, or relatives such as gangsters or unions or Jack has gotten one dime out of anybody of that kind, or racketeer money, bookies or any type of, you know, discriminating businesses of any kind. I know his finances, I know where he has gotten 99 percent of his money and that is from members of the family. In fact, they can ask Marian and Earl a good deal about that.

I also know the night of November 22 when Jack was with me the evening before—7:15—during that short time he was with me and they were talking about Oswald, I had made the statement and this is what I said. “Don’t worry,” and I told it to the FBI and I didn’t see it in the report.

Mr. Burleson. “Don’t worry”—what?

Mrs. Grant. “That lousy Communist”—I’m referring to, and I mean, I assumed this myself.

Mr. Burleson. And you said it in Jack’s presence?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right. “Don’t worry, that some lousy Communist will get him before anybody else does.”

Mr. Burleson. The Communist will get him before anybody else?

Mrs. Grant. That’s just what I said and I did not see it in this report—I don’t think I saw it. I did say it because I already talked to four or five people on the phone and I’m going to tell you why I said that—everyone on television and it seems it was Curry, which is our chief of police—says he’s someone that’s come out with three draft cards, he has been in Cuba and he defected to Russia and I think my mind is like 40 million other grownups, decided that he was a Communist sent here for this kind of a thing and the people that I knew that I speak to on the phone at that time or had been friends with all felt the same way or talked about it in that way. He couldn’t help but think that. It’s because what television has presented to the public, and then this thing in the paper and this was only Friday evening, and I have made that remark—I made it not only to him, to Pauline Hall, and to Madeline Blainey and to Emma and to Leo and whoever called I kept talking about that and made that remark, and I made it not only to him but to these others, and I kept talking about it because I was imbedded with that in my mind from television. They kept talking about it—they indicated he had three draft cards, he went to Russia and they threw him out and they planted him here and he went to Cuba and he had money and he was going to hire a plane.

Mr. Burleson. Okay—anything else you want to go into this to clarify this?

Mrs. Grant. Jack has always been a fighter for the Jews. Any—in the Army, if they look back, he didn’t mind—if you fought and if you cussed and they said words like sheeny or kike or Jew—he belted it out to them. I know my brother Jack. He told me of different incidents. One of the things that he loved about this President—he didn’t care what you were, you were a human being and Jack felt that this was one time in history that Jews are getting the break. He put in great Jewish men in office, they were fit to hold the office, and, of course, we are not Catholics and we never discuss religion in that effect, but my brother had such a great admiration for this man. It’s unbelievable.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack ever tell you why he shot Oswald?

Mrs. Grant. The truth is this—here recently with his head out—he said he did it for Jackie and the kids, but I think he’s just looking for a reason.

Mr. Hubert. No; I’m talking about the first few days?

Mrs. Grant. He didn’t talk—for 10 days he never mentioned it and I never mentioned it, but in this white overall he had a little picture and on one side is the late President’s picture in color. It is the most beautiful picture of him that I have seen. On the other side is a prayer of the Catholics. I have never seen my brother carry anything like that. He is definitely a good Jew no matter what people think. He had kissed the President’s picture in front of me—right in front of me like a baby, and he held that card prayer and his lawyers have seen him, and I don’t know what denomination they all are—we don’t go that way. He just held that card there, there’s a little pocket in there—all he knows—let me put it this way—it maybe was in back of his mind something that I don’t know or nobody knows, but he loved the President, but he had no idea of doing this. In the first place——

Mr. Hubert. It wouldn’t do any good, I don’t believe, for you to give your opinions.

Mrs. Grant. All right.

Mr. Hubert. If you know from what he told you, that’s another matter, but you say he has not told you that?

Mrs. Grant. This was a shock out of my wits.

Mr. Burleson. Let me ask you this—he didn’t tell you that, then?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Burleson. Now, something we haven’t gone into and might be relevant to this—Jack had a great acquaintance with the police, didn’t he?

Mrs. Grant. Far greater than the average citizen of this city, unless they were a wife of a man.

Mr. Burleson. Could you tell us what Jack’s attitude was toward the police?

Mrs. Grant. They were very friendly, he admired them, he thought they were good people. On many occasions some policeman would have a night off and he would want to take his wife out on his anniversary and it’s in between paydays, Jack would let him have $10 and he would say, “I’ll write a check” and so Jack didn’t want to take the check and sometimes he would hold it 6 years and this check was still in there which they can see among his possessions. He admired the police department. He was very close. In fact, he entertained them in the club on their nights off and I’m positive some have been out to his apartment.

Mr. Burleson. Do you know whether or not Jack knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. Grant. He said he knew a Tippit but it’s like me—there was a Tipton, a Tippit, and a Tipin (spelling) p-i-n, and a Tipton, and as far as I was concerned, even when Payton was talking to me, they were all the same man, until much later I found out there are three Tippits, there is a Tipton and a Tipin.

Mr. Burleson. Did Jack, during the period November 22 through the last time you talked to him on the 23d or the 24th of November, say anything to you about the fact that Officer Tippit was killed?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; on Saturday evening, during this 4-hour period I was very sick and I, of course—I was physically sick besides mentally sick now over the assassination of the President, and we talked about the Governor being shot and different things and he says, “You think you will be all right to go to the funeral,” but I was so sick.

Mr. Burleson. Did he say what funeral?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; he meant the policeman’s funeral—Tippit’s. Of course, a lot of people don’t know—he went to all of the policemen’s funerals and, of course, there has been a few funerals—if it was a member of their families and if he knew the fellows he would go. He was that kind. He tried to pay his respects to people.

Mr. Burleson. But he did have a conversation about Tippit?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. What did he say about Tippit being killed?

Mrs. Grant. He said, “You think you will be all right”—and this was Saturday, and I said, “Yes,” and he said, “Well, do you think you will be all right?” And I hollered back like—I said, “Yes—yes,” and not to bother me. I was too sick—I didn’t even want to think of it, but I’ll be honest, all the time he’s talking to me I had it in my mind—“I’m not going, I’m too sick and I know I ain’t going to feel good Monday,” see.

Mr. Burleson. In other words, he told you he had planned to go to Tippit’s funeral on Monday?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right—no; he didn’t say “Monday”, he did not say Monday—he didn’t say the date.

Mr. Burleson. Whenever it was?

Mrs. Grant. He said to the funeral.

Mr. Burleson. Tippit’s funeral?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; but he says—he saw I was sick and he figured maybe I don’t want to get out and he says, “Do you think you can go to dinner tomorrow?” And he does take me to dinner.

Mr. Burleson. But anyway, he had made arrangements or was telling you that he and you were going to the funeral of Tippit, is that right?

Mrs. Grant. That’s correct—that’s what he thought.

Mr. Burleson. But you didn’t feel up to it physically?

Mrs. Grant. That Saturday I couldn’t see myself going, I’ll tell you, I just wanted to quiet him down.

Mr. Burleson. And as far as you know. Jack did not know Tippit?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t—I don’t know, all I could tell you is that Jack lived in Oak Cliff for a couple of years or maybe a year and a half and Tippit, being of that area, he could have run into him and known of him slightly. He didn’t know him as well as other policemen that I know he knows. I know of policemen much closer than him, but since this all happened, one of my coworkers, Leo Torti, showed me a magazine and Tippit was in our club sometime—a month previous to this—previous to his killing.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a picture of Tippit?

Mrs. Grant. It was a picture of Tippit, and he said, “Do you remember he talked to you up at the front, he was in in September or October or November sometime.”

Mr. Burleson. Was that the Carousel or the Vegas?

Mrs. Grant. The Vegas, and while I looked at him then I remembered that he looked familiar, but truthfully, you know, after the President’s assassination and this incident of my brother I didn’t see any newspaper. I didn’t look for anything to read. I had no television or radio on—I couldn’t take it.

Mr. Burleson. Mr. Hubert, I think that is all I have along that line.

Mr. Hubert. Mrs. Grant, earlier today, as a matter of fact, at the very beginning or prior to the beginning of the deposition, I showed you a list of names and telephone numbers and addresses on a document consisting of 37 pages, marked with a large “E”, and asked you to go through that list and make a check mark as to every name and number that had any significance to you at all.

Now, you have done so and I am going to ask, if I may, with the consent of your attorney, that I now read off that list of names as to those names that you have checked off, and I am going to request the reporter to make a special list of those that you have checked off and hand it to you so that you may make comments of your own, and then after consultation with your attorney, draft up an affidavit as to what comments you have to make with respect to each one of these people. In other words, you have indicated that the names that have been checked off have a significance to you.

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. I would like you to prepare notes and with the assistance of your attorney, draft an affidavit as to what significance each one of these names has. I understand that it will be perhaps a matter of 2 weeks or so before you can get that because there are quite a number of names.

Now, I will read those names so that the record will show which of the names you have marked off. I understand that as to those you have not marked off, those names have no significance to you; is that correct?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right—I can’t relate them to anything.

Mr. Burleson. May I make a suggestion—it may be a little time consuming, but if she could look back through that now that she has had an opportunity to testify and recall many, many things that she probably hasn’t thought of in some time—she could very quickly look at the ones she didn’t check?

Mrs. Grant. Is it possible that some of those are license plate numbers—could you tell?

Mr. Hubert. They seem to be mostly telephone numbers.

Mr. Burleson. Yes; ma’am—that’s right.

Mrs. Grant. May I explain something to you?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; please.

Mrs. Grant. All right. Jack would be driving along in his car and there would be a young lady drive up to the right of him. If she didn’t have a marriage ring and she looked cute and he thought she might like to see a little night life he would let her pass—he would look at her license number and copy the number and find out in the city hall where to send her—her name and address and the telephone—a complimentary card to come to the Vegas Club—he as a host.

Now, I told this to Payton and the other people and he would send these people cards because girls would come to the club and ask me, “Where is Mr. Ruby?” And I would say, “He’s not here.” And they said, “Well, he sent me this complimentary card.” Once I said something to him about it and he said “Oh, I sent this to a girl,” and I never thought anything about it. Finally, when he was arrested and I knew they found a lot of numbers, I said to him, “What are these numbers for?” And he said, “You know they are license plate numbers.”

Mr. Hubert. I see your point—it might be better if we gave her the whole list.

Mrs. Grant. I’m not going to steal it.

Mr. Hubert. I can’t give you this list but I can get these names run off.

Mr. Burleson. Suppose we do it that way and it may be that in time she can reflect better.

Mr. Hubert. Suppose we do it that way, then, and instead of doing it the way we have agreed, I will supply you with a list of all of these names and ask that you look at all of them and possibly you will see some that you have overlooked?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right—there may be one or two that I have overlooked.

Mr. Hubert. And I will ask you, then, to give us an affidavit as to the significance of any of these.

Mrs. Grant. I will be happy to.

Mr. Hubert. I would ask that you give us the affidavit only upon your own knowledge.

Mr. Burleson. Not as to what she has heard?

Mr. Hubert. Well, if she indicates it is what she knows from her own knowledge as apart from what she has heard.

Mrs. Grant. These are mostly strippers and waitresses that I know or have known, or comedians. Listen, what happened to the two boxes of names and addresses that they took out?

Mr. Hubert. I don’t know, ma’am. It may well be that these are they.

Mrs. Grant. That isn’t enough.

Mr. Hubert. Off the record.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness as to the names shown on the list heretofore referred to.)

Mr. Burleson. May I ask you—do you want this in one single affidavit, paragraph by paragraph?

Mr. Hubert. I don’t think so. I think that the affidavit could be in the usual form.

Mr. Burleson. What I am asking is, do you want a single affidavit as to each one of the names here?

Mr. Hubert. I think not, I think the usual affidavit form—one that says that—having been handed a list and so forth, that she has the following comment to make on each and then in numerical sequence, and as to the rest of them there is no significance.

Mr. Burleson. And one notary signature will be sufficient?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And then there will be just one instrument?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mrs. Grant. I do want to say this: Do you know Jack in his early teens and in the early thirties—he and these bad boys he later on disassociated himself with, they were people in the neighborhood—broke up Bund meetings in Chicago—do you know Chicago at all?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Burleson. For the record, I have no other questions to ask.

Mr. Hubert. I haven’t either. Thank you very much.

Mrs. Grant. All right.