TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR (continued 2)

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Is it a passenger car?

Mr. Senator. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a box, you know. I don’t know what you call them.

Mr. Hubert. Was it to hold goods you were displaying?

Mr. Senator. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in the back, the back part.

Mr. Hubert. Was it your car or did it belong to the company?

Mr. Senator. It was the company.

Mr. Hubert. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time to time. How often about, just roughly?

Mr. Senator. Two or three times a week. It all depends.

Mr. Hubert. And you would help there?

Mr. Senator. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn’t.

Mr. Hubert. If you helped did he pay you?

Mr. Senator. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for me when I was down and out, and it wasn’t that many hours or it wasn’t difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the things he did for me, when I was down and out.

Mr. Hubert. All right, then I think we have covered the time when Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment next door.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him?

Mr. Senator. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed.

Mr. Hubert. And you had to give up the automobile at that time?

Mr. Senator. No; I had the automobile until January.

Mr. Hubert. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with these people until after Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But at the stress of the——

Mr. Senator. But the stresses.

Mr. Hubert. The stress of having to carry the whole apartment when Corbat left was one of the factors that put pressure upon you, is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes; it is the pressure of the extra amount of money.

Mr. Hubert. You did not own an automobile of your own I take it?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever?

Mr. Senator. Oh, when I was traveling the road; yes.

Mr. Hubert. When was the last time you owned an automobile?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know, it must have been about 4 or 5 years ago.

Mr. Hubert. What kind was it?

Mr. Senator. I think the last one I had was, I think it was a Buick.

Mr. Hubert. Did you sell it?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t remember if I sold it or traded it in.

Mr. Hubert. You traded it in for what?

Mr. Senator. I had a Buick once. I mean I had a few Buicks. When I say a few I mean there might have been about 3, and I had a Ford once I believe.

Mr. Hubert. In any case you haven’t owned a car of your own for about 4 or 5 years?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And the last car you owned you must have sold it I suppose. You couldn’t have traded it in because then you would have gotten a new car.

Mr. Senator. I am trying to think what was I doing with the last car. I think the last car, I think I lost it on payments. I couldn’t keep up the payments if I am not mistaken, if that is the one. I think that is it. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt a second to clarify one thing in my mind. You mentioned this Volkswagen. The last time you had it was in January?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now what year?

Mr. Senator. 1964.

Mr. Griffin. Just a couple of months ago?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Coming to the first part of November 1963, was that when you moved in with Jack?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I believe it was somewhere around the 1st or 2d of November, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Then I suppose you went back to the routine of the general mode of living and working with him that had existed before?

Mr. Senator. No; then I was helping him, I mean I was staying with him, so I was helping him on weekends. Once in a while I would pop in maybe on a weekday.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, your operation——

Mr. Senator. Just at the door.

Mr. Hubert. Your operation insofar as the Carousel is concerned was not like it was before?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Not on a daily basis?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Just at night, not every night?

Mr. Senator. Normally I would come in on Friday and Saturday.

Mr. Hubert. But you were still at your job?

Mr. Senator. Yes; after all I was staying there and felt he was entitled to something, you know, so I’d come in there and help him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you assist in the cooking or anything of that sort?

Mr. Senator. There was no food. The only food there was, they make pizzas once in a while.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t mean at the Carousel, I mean at the house, the apartment.

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; but I couldn’t cook right for him. He is a funny guy in cooking.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do any cooking there at all?

Mr. Senator. Yes. If I don’t broil right for him, if I make him eggs, it has got to be so much of this in the butter because he was watching his diet, and I got so tired of it I says, “Make your own eggs.” You just couldn’t make anything right for him. And all meats had to be broiled. He don’t believe in fried stuff. And he was just hard to cook for.

Mr. Hubert. The routine then I suppose is that you were working and you would come back to the apartment after normal working hours, which would be around when, 5 or 6 in the evening?

Mr. Senator. To cook for him? That would be rare. I got away from that.

Mr. Hubert. I am getting to the normal routine as to your relationship. You had a regular working day I take it?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Which started off at 8 or so in the morning?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And ended up at 5 or 6 in the evening? He, on the other hand, would be sleeping in the morning?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And I understand would leave the apartment after you got back at night or before, as a normal thing?

Mr. Senator. It wasn’t always necessarily that I came home between 5 and 6 because many times I stayed out.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any kind of a pattern at all to your living in point of time?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; there is no particular pattern.

Mr. Hubert. What about weekends? Was that different?

Mr. Senator. No; not particularly. First of all I always get up before he does, whether I am working or otherwise.

Mr. Hubert. You would help him at the club?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. On weekends and if you did I suppose you came back about the same time he did?

Mr. Senator. At night? Yes. But as far as I getting up in the morning, I always got up much earlier than he did. It was just natural. It was natural for me to get up, and it doesn’t make any difference what particular time I went to bed at 2, 3, 4 or 5, I am of that nature that I get up.

Mr. Griffin. What is your regular rising time?

Mr. Senator. I would say 7, 7:30, sometimes 6 in the morning. A lot of times it would probably depend what time I go to bed. If I go to bed at 10 o’clock at night I probably wake up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. What about on weekends?

Mr. Senator. On weekends? Say like a Sunday. I would probably wake up at 7:30 or 8 o’clock in the morning on Sunday.

Mr. Griffin. Has it been your habit when you get up in the morning you make yourself a breakfast or what do you do?

Mr. Senator. No. I will tell you, when I wake up in the morning I want coffee, but I don’t have that appetite in the morning when I get up. It is very rare that I will eat the moment I wake up in the morning. But I get hungry maybe an hour or two later or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. So on a working day would you go to work, grab a cup of coffee and go to work?

Mr. Senator. No, no; on working days I go downtown and have my coffee. I don’t even make it there. Never. I don’t sit there and make coffee in the morning.

Mr. Griffin. Any particular place that you eat at regularly?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where?

Mr. Senator. I had a hangout. The Eat Well. There is three places that I normally went to. Eat Well, I always went there every morning, even on Sunday, and then the Chefette. Down where the Chefette is in the Hotel Adolphus and then the Walgren also in the Hotel Adolphus. Those are the three places I normally was always in.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any regular place where you ate lunch?

Mr. Senator. No; there is no particular—I mean I don’t pick my spot where I eat lunch.

Mr. Griffin. What would you do about dinners?

Mr. Senator. Dinners I normally would like to go home, for meal, but I ate more when I was living with Stan or by myself than I did with Jack, because I just can’t cook of his nature.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack in the habit of coming home for dinner?

Mr. Senator. A lot of times, yes; and then I would probably say maybe; on rare occasions, no. It wasn’t necessarily that he had to be home for dinner because there were many times he also ate out. But he was hard on food, even at a restaurant he was not easy. It had to be so-so.

Mr. Griffin. Who did the shopping?

Mr. Senator. Jack did the shopping. I couldn’t do no shopping. I can’t shop for him.

Mr. Griffin. So Jack in effect would buy the meat for the meals and he would plan the meals? Is that the idea? Then you would cook them?

Mr. Senator. He would buy what would suit himself, and if I didn’t like it that is too bad.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a regular routine of going to a grocery store once a week and going shopping for a week or how did it work?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say something like that. Of course, it all depends, you know, how much he is buying, how much he is going to buy. But he always had a lot of meat. He always kept his refrigerator pretty well filled. He’d buy grapefruits, half a grapefruit and grapefruit juice like crazy. Holy God, you know he’d wake up in the morning, the number one thing was that grapefruit. If he bought grapefruit which he’d normally buy 6, 8, 10 of them at a clip, he would cut up about 2 of them, 2 at once mind you, and put them through the wringer and wring them down, you know, the machine he had home and drink solid grapefruit juice, but from 2 of them, 2 whole grapefruits, unless he had the frozen grapefruits which he diluted with water. This is number one before he did anything, the grapefruit bit.

Mr. Griffin. Did this pattern prevail both when you were living with him the first time and when you were living with him the second time?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Griffin. Or was there some difference in your relationship?

Mr. Senator. No; there was no difference. His way of living was set before I ever heard of Jack Ruby, his way of eating.

Mr. Griffin. He would do all the shopping? Who would decide on any particular evening what the meal was going to be?

Mr. Senator. I had no say. I had no say.

Mr. Griffin. Would he call you in advance to let you know when he was coming back for dinner?

Mr. Senator. No; no call; no.

Mr. Griffin. What would you do? Did you have a time when you liked to eat, if Jack wasn’t there that you would?

Mr. Senator. If he wasn’t there then I’d help myself or even if I made a couple of eggs or whatever it might be. Sure, I mean there was no particular time that I had to sit down and eat with him, because if I wasn’t there he ain’t waiting for me.

Mr. Griffin. If you felt like eating dinner, would you go into the icebox and pull out a steak and make some potatoes and do what you wanted to do?

Mr. Senator. Yes; sure, sure. If he wasn’t there, look, I am not going to sit there and wait for him, you know. And he certainly isn’t sitting there waiting for me, because I probably don’t know what time he is going to be home and he probably doesn’t know what time I am going to be home or sometimes we may be there together. But there was no set pattern. There was no particular time.

Mr. Hubert. I gather from all this, from the fact that your acquaintanceship with Ruby ripened into friendship, and ripened further in the fact that you were sharing an apartment together, that you got to know the man pretty well as a man, and knew his habits?

Mr. Senator. I knew something about them.

Mr. Griffin. His likes and dislikes. You expressed an opinion about that already and that is what I would like to get to now with reference to particular areas. You have mentioned the question of dogs, and I would like you to tell us about what you know of him with reference to dogs and his attitude towards them and so forth.

Mr. Senator. He had enough of them.

Mr. Hubert. I gather from that you mean he had plenty of them?

Mr. Senator. He had a few dogs.

Mr. Hubert. All the time that you have known him was that so or when did that begin?

Mr. Senator. Well, I don’t know when it began because he had dogs the first time that I got close to him or acquainted with him.

Mr. Hubert. That is about 2½ years ago?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know anything about the dogs?

Mr. Senator. Previous to that I didn’t know anything about dogs before.

Mr. Hubert. I guess the number of dogs varied, didn’t it?

Mr. Senator. It happened to be why he had so many dogs, his dog Sheba, who was attacked by one of Sheba’s sons at a later date, gave birth to six at one time. What are you going to do? He had dogs.

Mr. Hubert. So he kept them.

Mr. Senator. Yes. He didn’t want to give them away.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he keep them?

Mr. Senator. They were born in the apartment. He had them in the kitchen until they were old enough, you know, whatever age that they might be, a month or two, and then he brought them down to the club and he puts them way in the back room of the club. He used to bring everybody in “See my dogs.” Of course, his pet was Sheba, which everybody in this country knows.

Mr. Hubert. She was the mother?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that was the mother of the whole crew. So he wound up with——

Mr. Hubert. Did Sheba stay at the club or at his house?

Mr. Senator. Both. Jack goes to the club, Sheba goes with him.

Mr. Hubert. Sheba was always with him?

Mr. Senator. Yes; this was the only one. I would say on rare occasions he would probably bring the other dog home or two, just overnight.

Mr. Hubert. He gave some of the dogs away didn’t he?

Mr. Senator. Yes; Jack had close to 10 dogs. He had about 9 or 10 dogs. Don’t forget Sheba had six at one clip.

Mr. Hubert. What was his attitude towards these animals? Was it a normal attitude that people have to dogs?

Mr. Senator. I know people have mentioned it to me before in the past and the quotations that I have heard though I have never heard them from him though I have heard them otherwise like “My family” or “My wife.” I have read these. I am certain everybody else has too or heard it. But he liked dogs. To me this has no meaning. To me it has no meaning when he says this.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear these comments made by other people concerning Ruby and his dogs prior to the shooting or afterwards?

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Hubert. Prior to the shooting or afterwards?

Mr. Senator. Prior I don’t recollect. I don’t say—it had to be prior to. No; it had to be prior.

Mr. Hubert. You have read perhaps a lot about the dogs——

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Since the shooting?

Mr. Senator. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I don’t know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I’m not sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi “I want you to meet my family” or something like that. There was a quotation he used. Now this may have been it, I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Were there other people that you remember who commented to you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that he was——

Mr. Senator. I heard two things already. One was “my family” and one was “my wife,” which absolutely has——

Mr. Hubert. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail?

Mr. Senator. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was after, see.

Mr. Hubert. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior?

Mr. Senator. The remarks were made after, that is right.

Mr. Hubert. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were made after?

Mr. Senator. After.

Mr. Hubert. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were supposed to have occurred prior?

Mr. Senator. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard.

Mr. Hubert. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the shooting?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these animals?

Mr. Senator. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of years.

Mr. Hubert. There was nothing abnormal about it?

Mr. Senator. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog may be.

Mr. Hubert. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t listen to that stuff because it is not true.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself?

Mr. Senator. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart.

Mr. Hubert. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely?

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Hubert. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely?

Mr. Senator. That he would have?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No; that is so far-fetched I don’t believe in that stuff.

Mr. Griffin. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel that way?

Mr. Senator. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on the head but I have never seen an incident like this, at no time.

Mr. Hubert. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it.

Mr. Senator. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it mentioned one time he said “George you know I used to be able to swim 2 or 3 miles” which I would probably say is a pretty good distance. I know I can’t do anything like that, or nowheres near it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he do any ice skating?

Mr. Senator. Yes, we were ice skating once.

Mr. Hubert. Was he good at it?

Mr. Senator. He was good because—I’ll tell you why he was good, because he had never been on ice skates before.

Mr. Hubert. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates?

Mr. Senator. Sir?

Mr. Hubert. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates?

Mr. Senator. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked me to go, too, and did I suffer.

Mr. Hubert. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if that was the first time we had been. I mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with, you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been on ice skates, including his age.

Mr. Hubert. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew?

Mr. Senator. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn’t do them every day but he did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things, weightlifters.

Mr. Hubert. Weightlifting equipment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He had them in the house?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him.

Mr. Hubert. What was his general physical condition?

Mr. Senator. Excellent.

Mr. Hubert. Was he a powerful man?

Mr. Senator. A powerful man?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I’ll tell you, I won’t want to get rapped by him.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he tangled with people?

Mr. Senator. I have never had the pleasure—I can’t say pleasure. I have never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a couple of people.

Mr. Hubert. You mean between him and other people.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about those, would you?

Mr. Senator. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him, because he can go this fast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn’t like this.

Mr. Hubert. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you just tell us about those.

Mr. Senator. I’ll tell you one.

Mr. Hubert. About where they happened and the time.

Mr. Senator. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one. Do you want it in the club or out of the club?

Mr. Hubert. Any one.

Mr. Senator. This was outside of the club.

Mr. Hubert. When was it?

Mr. Senator. Last year.

Mr. Hubert. About what time last year?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say it was sometime last summer.

Mr. Hubert. The summer of 1963?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what happened.

Mr. Senator. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the Burgundy Room is?

Mr. Hubert. The Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with this fellow here.

Mr. Hubert. Who, what fellow?

Mr. Senator. His name?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Don Taber or Tabin.

Mr. Hubert. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You were with that man?

Mr. Senator. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some girl and went over to talk to her.

Mr. Hubert. So you were alone at the table?

Mr. Senator. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing.

Mr. Hubert. Who came in?

Mr. Senator. Jack Ruby. Jack don’t like to have me drink. He doesn’t like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I’m always drunk all the while which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know, and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other, I don’t know what it was, and Jack was always telling him “Don, I want you to stay away from me” and I have heard him warn him once before by the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word with him. I don’t know if you want to take this down or not?

Mr. Hubert. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly.

Mr. Senator. I think he told him to go “F” yourself.

Mr. Hubert. Go what?

Mr. Senator. Do you want me to use the word?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. He told him to go —— himself.

Mr. Hubert. Who told who?

Mr. Senator. Don to Jack.

Mr. Hubert. Told that to Jack?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but when he isn’t he is not easy to get along with you know.

Mr. Hubert. You mean when Jack came in?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Taber or Tabin told him that?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And there had been no previous conversation between them?

Mr. Senator. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason or other.

Mr. Hubert. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this man Taber says “Go —— yourself?”

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. To Jack?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then what happened?

Mr. Senator. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then I think there was an answer back or something, I just don’t remember but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he hit him?

Mr. Senator. He hit him.

Mr. Hubert. With his fist or what?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any knucks?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or pistol?

Mr. Senator. It was his fist, yes.

Mr. Hubert. What happened?

Mr. Senator. So they got into a little battle.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. So they actually squared off?

Mr. Senator. They squared off. It didn’t last long though.

Mr. Hubert. What happened?

Mr. Senator. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it.

Mr. Hubert. Was he knocked off his feet?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was he a big man, this Taber?

Mr. Senator. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. And how tall?

Mr. Senator. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches.

Mr. Hubert. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and weight?

Mr. Senator. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches.

Mr. Hubert. And weighed what?

Mr. Senator. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185.

Mr. Hubert. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did he have much fat?

Mr. Senator. Well, he is 52. I don’t care how you drill yourself, I am certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side which I didn’t dare comment on. If I told him that he didn’t like it. But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful back. I mean to look at the man’s back at his age, he had a tremendous back.

Mr. Hubert. Was he fast with his fists?

Mr. Senator. I would say for his age he was.

Mr. Hubert. When you saw this battle with Taber?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he was pretty fast.

Mr. Hubert. And he definitely got the best of him?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What about the other occasion?

Mr. Senator. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I didn’t catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and he hit a guy bigger than him. I don’t remember what it was.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us where that was, in the club?

Mr. Senator. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the stairs. But it happened to be I didn’t see it because I happened to be around the side and all I caught is the tail end.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know when?

Mr. Senator. That was in 1962.

Mr. Hubert. Did he knock the man off his feet?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. But I know he got the first lick in.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that? He told you?

Mr. Senator. No, I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain’t going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.

Mr. Hubert. Is this the opinion that is generally held?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if that is the opinion that is generally held or not.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?

Mr. Senator. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.

Mr. Griffin. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the club?

Mr. Senator. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don’t remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of some nature.

Mr. Hubert. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew about from having observed them yourself?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen that often?

Mr. Senator. No, I don’t say often. I have seen it happen. And when it has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Like throwing them down the stairs?

Mr. Senator. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh yes, I’ll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.

The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat them up.

Mr. Hubert. What was your answer?

Mr. Senator. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I remember right.

Mr. Hubert. Who did?

Mr. Senator. Mr. Alexander.

Mr. Hubert. But in any case what is the truth?

Mr. Senator. What did I answer him?

Mr. Hubert. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth as to that question.

Mr. Senator. I’ll tell you how I answered him.

Mr. Hubert. Yes, all right; tell us that first.

Mr. Senator. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn’t make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that isn’t going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn’t afraid of height or size, something like that I answered him.

Mr. Hubert. That is your opinion now, too?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you base that opinion on what?

Mr. Senator. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.

Mr. Hubert. And you think that is not so?

Mr. Senator. No; I say that he doesn’t go according to size. I mean I know that he doesn’t fear anybody who is taller than he is.

Mr. Hubert. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion right now?

Mr. Senator. How do I form that opinion?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size don’t mean anything to him.

Mr. Hubert. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t think he is of the nature who would back off.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to anything?

Mr. Senator. No; I have never witnessed any.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off?

Mr. Senator. I haven’t seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard that, yes. How it happened I don’t know. There was some sort of a fight and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don’t know but I’ve heard that.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack ever talk to you about it?

Mr. Senator. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut. His cut much more off than mine.

Mr. Hubert. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger?

Mr. Senator. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in a fight. Now I don’t know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it happened. I just don’t remember where or how it happened.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare?

Mr. Senator. I have never seen it.

Mr. Hubert. You have heard about it?

Mr. Senator. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it.

Mr. Hubert. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him in the groin, in the head or something of that sort?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. I have never witnessed anything of this nature.

Mr. Hubert. Have you an opinion?

Mr. Senator. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn’t know what I was guessing at.

Mr. Hubert. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody.

Mr. Senator. He certainly wasn’t afraid of size. In other words, if the man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn’t back off.

Mr. Hubert. And that was formed I think you told us from your general knowledge.

Mr. Senator. That is right. He wouldn’t back off.

Mr. Hubert. What is your opinion from your general knowledge?

Mr. Senator. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. You know the man and that is all I’m asking. Is he the type of man who would do that in your opinion?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so. First of all I don’t think so. Personally, I don’t think so, but after all I can’t answer for what another individual would think in his mind. I don’t know, see.

Mr. Hubert. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t personally think so. I don’t think he would be that brutal.

Mr. Griffin. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin?

Mr. Senator. Yes, but there was no kicking.

Mr. Griffin. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it?

Mr. Senator. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped. But I would say Jack got most of the blows in.

Mr. Griffin. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody pull him off?

Mr. Senator. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off.

Mr. Griffin. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you didn’t actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at the tail end of it.

Mr. Senator. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words, it is going up a flight of steps.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the L shape of it I didn’t see.

Mr. Griffin. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were thrown?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. How long did this last?

Mr. Senator. It didn’t last long because there must have been one or two blows and that was it.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody come in and break that up?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know what happened. I just don’t remember what happened there. I think he knocked him down. I’m not sure. I think he knocked him down with that blow.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack accomplish his purpose?

Mr. Senator. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing I think they took him down or something like that. I don’t know. I just don’t recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was drunk. I really don’t know if he was. I think he was.

Mr. Griffin. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is about using his fists?

Mr. Senator. No; this, which I don’t know too much about his youth, it probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold water flat and the only way I’m familiar of something of this nature is what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.

Mr. Griffin. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair evaluation.

Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are some people who in their daily life wouldn’t hit anybody because they don’t think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?

Mr. Senator. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don’t even know if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn’t answer correctly. I couldn’t give you a truthful answer on it.

Mr. Griffin. Why is that that you couldn’t give an answer?

Mr. Senator. Because I couldn’t, because I can’t think for what the man thinks.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t know that much about him?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. To be able to say that?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I would probably say maybe in certain instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn’t.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the way to solve the problem at that particular point.

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I would probably say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.

Mr. Griffin. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?

Mr. Senator. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must have done something wrong. I don’t know what it was.

Mr. Griffin. But this wasn’t something where he built up a head of steam on this guy.

Mr. Senator. Maybe this is something that just went off instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn’t know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don’t know what it could have been.

Mr. Hubert. You have indicated along here in your testimony, particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that was your phrase?

Mr. Senator. Agree.

Mr. Hubert. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like that.

Mr. Senator. He could have a pretty fast temper.

Mr. Hubert. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must be based upon episodes when you witnessed him losing——

Mr. Senator. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about——

Mr. Senator. Hollered at me, you know.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about some of the episodes that you saw concerning yourself or others which indicated to you that he had a fast temper?

Mr. Senator. Well, if there should have been discussion about something, whatever it might be, with me he would make wrong and holler at me and flare up at me.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by “make wrong”?

Mr. Senator. I could never be right with the man, see what I mean? I couldn’t be right. In other words, if I said black was black he would say no it is white and that is it.

Mr. Hubert. And he would do that in a gruff fashion do you think?

Mr. Senator. With me? Oh my, you have no idea how many times he has hollered at me but he’d never lay a hand on me. And the funny thing is that is how fast he got over it, and he’d forget about it.

Mr. Hubert. You snapped your fingers again? You mean that he would——

Mr. Senator. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would get over it that fast from me.

Mr. Hubert. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would describe it as anger, manifested——

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Wait a while.

Mr. Senator. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he wouldn’t.

Mr. Hubert. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn’t, and that you have seen many times, and you also tell us that——

Mr. Senator. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don’t know. Like I told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off. He didn’t like that.

Mr. Hubert. But you say he would calm down right away?

Mr. Senator. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them “Again, out” and he would put them out. There wouldn’t be any hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I’ll tell you, at all times.

Mr. Hubert. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give us examples of that?

Mr. Senator. I can give you examples of myself on that.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have described?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he would holler at me.

Mr. Hubert. Then it would be all over.

Mr. Senator. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he would tone down.

Mr. Hubert. How long would it take?

Mr. Senator. A matter of a minute or two.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, he wouldn’t brood over it. Having gotten mad at you he wouldn’t be a brooder. He would change to another subject and be quite his normal self again?

Mr. Senator. Yes. See I couldn’t make this man wrong. I can’t make him wrong, you know. I’m the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you. Whatever it might be I can’t be right.

Mr. Hubert. That was the way he treated you?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. To stay in this same general area here, did you know that Jack owned a pair of knuckles?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when he bought them?

Mr. Senator. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. How did you learn that he had them?

Mr. Senator. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a cloth sack.

Mr. Griffin. Where did he keep that sack?

Mr. Senator. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep anything else in the sack?

Mr. Senator. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see, Jack’s bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money, which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in all different pockets.

Mr. Hubert. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You shake your head. What does that mean?

Mr. Senator. He is not a drinker.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t drink at all?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t drink at all, or very little?

Mr. Senator. I wouldn’t say at all but I would probably say if he took a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot.

Mr. Hubert. How about smoking?

Mr. Senator. No smoking whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. What was his attitude toward women?

Mr. Senator. Like any other man.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say any other normal man?

Mr. Senator. Any other normal man.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you the possibility of homosexuality?

Mr. Senator. Never.

Mr. Hubert. On his part?

Mr. Senator. Never.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so?

Mr. Senator. I never noticed it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he lisp?

Mr. Senator. Yes. So do I.

Mr. Hubert. Jack has a lisp?

Mr. Senator. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all?

Mr. Senator. No. Just as normal as any human being.

Mr. Hubert. He was single.

Mr. Senator. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never been married, Hyman.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any girl friends?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he went out with various girls.

Mr. Hubert. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex relationships.

Mr. Senator. His sex relationship, you know I’m not there to watch wherever he may be.

Mr. Hubert. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would throw light upon that.

Mr. Senator. He likes women.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Senator. How do I know he likes women?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I like women.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever tell you that he liked them?

Mr. Senator. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I’m certain anybody here, who doesn’t say they don’t like women. I think this is a normal thing to say.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things?

Mr. Senator. This here I’m never around.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Senator. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; of course you wouldn’t be around, but do you have any opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we can leave that off.

Mr. Senator. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else talks to them.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of?

Mr. Senator. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This is when I turn out to be the cook.

Mr. Hubert. But you can’t tell us then of any particular person that you would think Jack had intimate relationships with?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know of any at all that you could even suggest in your own mind?

Mr. Senator. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of that nature I am not around where he don’t want me around.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was having some feminine company, or indicate that he was?

Mr. Senator. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some company or somebody over.

Mr. Hubert. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave?

Mr. Senator. On rare occasions.

Mr. Hubert. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion. That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that nature?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at his club, I mean the waitresses?

Mr. Senator. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly business.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong statement?

Mr. Senator. I have heard that expressed many a time.

Mr. Hubert. What do you think about that statement?

Mr. Senator. It definitely is a wrong statement.

Mr. Hubert. You never saw it.

Mr. Senator. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all, he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What the conversations are I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate character?

Mr. Senator. No; if it was, I didn’t know about it.

Mr. Hubert. What about Jack’s attitude about what his girls did in the nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself?

Mr. Senator. The girls working in the club?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses?

Mr. Hubert. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them then I would ask you to explain the difference.

Mr. Senator. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain he would probably yank him out. He didn’t go for that bit.

Mr. Hubert. Something must have happened that leads you to that opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would certainly have done something about it?

Mr. Senator. I have heard him mention that he doesn’t want anybody outside using any of his girls.

Mr. Hubert. You yourself have heard him say that?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he don’t want any of his girls going out with customers. He didn’t want the place to have a reputation such as that.

Mr. Hubert. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of relations with people who were in the club?

Mr. Senator. Beyond the area?

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn’t want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the club or customers.

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with people who were not patrons of the club?

Mr. Senator. That I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know. First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all, where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it is day or night. This I can’t even answer you.

Mr. Hubert. Was Jack sensitive about his religion?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us how you know that?

Mr. Senator. Well, he didn’t like the M.C.’s having any jokes about the Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a couple of M.C.’s already.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything to you?

Mr. Senator. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don’t want any Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject?

Mr. Senator. Well, I don’t know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive.

Mr. Hubert. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known?

Mr. Senator. I would say he is; yes.

Mr. Hubert. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively?

Mr. Senator. As far as going to church, synagogue?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays.

Mr. Hubert. That is, Jewish holidays?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; always.

Mr. Hubert. He wasn’t one who went regularly then to synagogue?

Mr. Senator. This I don’t know. I would have to leave this question because I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you lived with him.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. During the time that you lived with him did he ever indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer?

Mr. Senator. They go on Friday nights.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights regularly?

Mr. Senator. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don’t say that he has or hasn’t been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably not on other times. I don’t say this is every Friday night that he goes, no. I wouldn’t say that. But he does make, you know, the important holidays.

Mr. Hubert. Do you consider him to be a religious man?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how, to tell you the truth, I don’t know how to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that he observes as to holidays.

Mr. Hubert. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was either religious or not religious.

Mr. Senator. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday. He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does observe those things.

Mr. Hubert. You mean not the regular Saturday fast?

Mr. Senator. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don’t eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that.

Mr. Hubert. I think it is a good time for recess.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if he belonged to them or not. This I can’t know. But I think he went—it was Temple Emanuel. I don’t know which one he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel.

Mr. Griffin. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever participating in any activities, Jewish activities?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. B’nai B’rith?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Other than giving money he didn’t belong to the synagogue’s men’s clubs?

Mr. Senator. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o’clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.)

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Senator, we are now continuing the deposition which we began this morning. I am sure you understand and I want the record to show that this deposition is being continued under the same authority and under the same conditions as it began this morning, and also that you are under the same oath. Now there are a few more general areas that I would like to talk to you about concerning the character of Jack Ruby and the type of man he was. Let me direct your attention to the political beliefs and thinking of Jack Ruby, and ask you what comment you have to make about that.

Mr. Senator. None whatsoever on his beliefs on political issues.

Mr. Hubert. Do you mean by that that you don’t know?

Mr. Senator. Break down when you say political issues.

Mr. Hubert. I mean do you know anything about what his thinking was from what he told you concerning his beliefs about politics in general?

Mr. Senator. No; he was not of the nature, he never went into anything of that nature.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him discuss international politics?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to show any interest in international affairs as they were developing?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. I mean would he be the type of person that would read the newspapers at all? Did he read newspapers at all?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure; he read newspapers religiously every day.

Mr. Hubert. Did he read all of them, I mean every part of it?

Mr. Senator. I will tell you, when you ask me that, I tell you where his reading is. On the toilet bowl. That is where all his reading is—is on the toilet bowl. It may sound funny, but it is true.

Mr. Hubert. Can you give us any idea from what you know, of what his reaction to international events was, such as, for instance, the Cuban crisis in 1962?

Mr. Senator. He never discussed these.

Mr. Hubert. You are familiar with what I am talking about? I think it was in the fall of 1962 when we discovered that Cuba had some possible atomic weapons over there, a subject of national interest.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I have read that.

Mr. Hubert. And the Berlin crisis of the year before?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is the sort of thing I mean. Did he comment about that?

Mr. Senator. No; he didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Is it your thought that he just had no interest in that sort of thing at all?

Mr. Senator. Well, if he did or not, he never discussed it too much. He would read a paper. He would read his ad. He reads these—of course, I am certain he reads all parts of the paper, but especially the entertainment part, he was very anxious in reading.

Mr. Hubert. Normally when two people share space such as you do, and are in each other’s company and have any conversation at all, the conversation normally relates to the topics of the day, as it were, as reflected by newspapers and other news media.

I wonder if you can throw any light on what his attitude was or his interest was towards topics of the day of international import.

Mr. Senator. I just don’t recall. All I know is that he reads the—of course, I am certain he reads all of the paper, you know, or various parts, but he would talk about show business a lot with me, see.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him discuss at all any international incident?

Mr. Senator. I just can’t think offhand. I don’t say he did or didn’t. I just can’t think offhand if he did or didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever seek to engage him in small talk, shall we say, about subjects of that nature?

Mr. Senator. Well, he talked about the President. I remember once we were watching a picture of President Kennedy’s kid going between the desk. He thought that was so wonderful, you know, enjoyed over that. I remember that distinctly.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he saw that on TV?

Mr. Senator. Yes; this he marveled over. But the discussion, we never went into papers too much. He was mainly, I know when he grabbed the paper the first thing he would go to is the show part of it, his competitors, the show part of it, the night life, Tony Zoppi, with a nightclub. He is like, I don’t know how to compare him, to somebody who writes a column in New York.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t recall in all of the years you have known Jack of his being interested in international affairs to the point that you can remember any discussion with him?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. At all?

Mr. Senator. I really can’t think offhand. I don’t say that he probably hadn’t, but I just don’t think offhand.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember any such discussions?

Mr. Senator. I don’t; no.

Mr. Hubert. Now what would be your impression, knowing Jack as a whole, of his interest in international affairs?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. The reason I asked you that, although I realize it is an opinion question, is because you have been able to give us your opinion on other aspects of his life and character, for instance, that he was a man who was not a homosexual, and so forth, and you based your opinions upon your experience with him, and this is just another aspect of his character, that is all.

Now I am simply asking you what is your opinion about his interest in communism or rightism or leftism or middle-of-the-roadism or any kind of ism.

Mr. Senator. The only way I can refer to anything of that nature is the time we saw the billboards.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that was——

Mr. Senator. The impeachment of——

Mr. Hubert. After the President was——

Mr. Senator. Right; this was the time that I saw——

Mr. Hubert. We will get to that, but are you willing to say now, as far as you can remember, that that is the only time you ever saw him interested in a matter of that nature?

Mr. Senator. You see, when he gets home at night, the first thing he heads for is the bathroom, and the paper goes with him, and from there on he sits there, I don’t know, 45 minutes reading the paper.

Mr. Hubert. I appreciate your comment because it throws some light on it, but I would like to have an answer if you can give it to me to that question. I don’t know if I can rephrase it.

(The previous question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Hubert. Can you answer that question?

Mr. Senator. I didn’t get that.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see if I can rephrase it. You mentioned that you saw him interested in a matter that concerned an ism. I had previously asked you whether or not he had, to your knowledge, any interest in rightism, communism, leftism, middle-of-the-roadism, and you mentioned that one incident.

Mr. Senator. Those, none whatsoever, because he is a lover of the country he lives in. He was never——

Mr. Hubert. I suppose that would be called Americanism.

Mr. Senator. Americanism. He loves the nation he is in.

Mr. Hubert. You formed that opinion, of course, on certain events or things that he told you. Can you refer to what those things would have been?

Mr. Senator. No; I can’t, but I know that he has never belonged to any organizations. He has never attended any meetings to my knowledge, and this is the only way that I can in all reality base it.

Mr. Hubert. You say that he is a lover of his country. Now, did he say so or did he act in certain ways regarding certain instances that caused you to form that opinion?

You see what I mean, any impression that you have about anybody is based upon your reactions to things said or done, and that is all I am asking you to say.

Now you say he is a man who loves his country. I ask you, did you hear him say so or did you get that impression from things he did, or attitudes?

Mr. Senator. I just take this for granted that he does, the same way as I take it that I know that I do.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, you know you do from your own experience, but on the other hand you don’t know about somebody else.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how to base it with him. I know he is very fond of the city he lived in.

Mr. Hubert. And how do you know that?

Mr. Senator. Because he has told me he likes Dallas. He likes Dallas, he likes everything about it. He liked living there. He liked it because there wasn’t any hustle and bustle like any large, big city like New York or Chicago or California.

Mr. Hubert. Have you similar facts or experiences upon which to base your opinion that he is a lover of the United States as such?

Mr. Senator. I can’t base it on anything. It is only what I think. And, of course, to my way of thinking I think everybody does.

Mr. Hubert. I think I am beginning to see what you mean. You assume that everybody loves their country.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Unless there is something to the contrary.

Mr. Senator. Sure.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. I want to ask some questions along that line.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead and do it now unless you prefer to wait.

Mr. Griffin. No; I would just as soon, when you finish with an area, pick up from notes I have been making.

Did Jack Ruby, George, to your knowledge show any interest in any political candidates for local office in Texas?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know on that. I will tell you, as far as I know of him, he has never spoken of or never messed around with anything like that, political-wise or anything of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see him with any campaign literature for anybody?

Mr. Senator. No; I haven’t.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see him with any literature of any political sort that would be other than newspaper literature?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. You know in Texas and elsewhere there are all sorts of organizations that are putting out literature, the John Birch Society and Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. Senator. He never messed around with that. The only first showing I ever seen of any nature was that night he woke me up.

Mr. Griffin. You mentioned that Jack read newspapers, and you thought every day. Did you have a newspaper delivered to your apartment?

Mr. Senator. No; he bought it on the way home.

Mr. Griffin. Did he read newspapers from outside of Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No; he bought the morning paper and the evening paper.

Mr. Griffin. Did he buy the Fort Worth papers?

Mr. Senator. Yes; and Fort Worth, come to think of it.

Mr. Griffin. Any particular reason why he should buy a Fort Worth paper rather than a Dallas paper?

Mr. Senator. No; because he bought them both. No particular reason, but he would buy them both for news or see what is going on in Fort Worth, I assume.

Mr. Griffin. He would buy a Fort Worth paper at a Dallas newsstand or would he only buy the Fort Worth newspaper when he went to Fort Worth?

Mr. Senator. No; he would buy a Fort Worth paper, I will tell you where he bought it, he bought it at the Adolphus Hotel. He always picked his paper up at the stand in front of the Adolphus. He would buy the morning news. As a matter of fact, he would buy any paper that was laying around there that the man had in front of the stand there.

Mr. Griffin. Did he read the Wall Street Journal?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t even think he could understand it.

Mr. Griffin. How about magazines? Did he subscribe to any magazines?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Time magazine, Newsweek?

Mr. Senator. I never seen any magazines come in.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any magazines around the house?

Mr. Senator. No; the only magazines I ever bought was Reader’s Digest.

Mr. Griffin. Did you people have a television set at your apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And did you have a radio?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack accustomed to being at home and watching the TV or listening to the radio?

Mr. Senator. On the TV part; yes, he would put that on. He would have that on, and, of course, there is two things I know interested him on TV.

Mr. Griffin. What were those?

Mr. Senator. Those were Westerns and the stories, you know, whatever stories there might be.

Mr. Griffin. You mean the movies?

Mr. Senator. Yes; the movies, and he liked the Westerns, you know, the half-hour or hour programs, whatever they were.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a radio in his car?

Mr. Senator. He had, what do you call those little things?

Mr. Griffin. Transistor?

Mr. Senator. Yes; transistor.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have one that was installed in the car itself?

Mr. Senator. You mean put in?

Mr. Griffin. You know.

Mr. Senator. He had it put in?

Mr. Griffin. A car radio.

Mr. Senator. Oh yes; installed with the car?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was this any sort of special kind of radio?

Mr. Senator. No; just a radio that came with the car.

Mr. Griffin. It wasn’t equipped to receive any kind of frequencies?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. FM or anything like that?

Mr. Senator. No. As a matter of fact, the last car he bought he bought second-hand, which he thought he had a good buy on, and he bought it, and, of course, the thing had a radio in it, you know, whatever make it was. Nothing special about, just the ordinary car radio.

Mr. Griffin. How about your radio at home? Could that pick up FM?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Or shortwave?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if it could or not.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of a radio was it?

Mr. Senator. I don’t even know the make or the brand. One side there was a clock and the other side was a radio.

Mr. Griffin. I take it then your conclusion about Jack Ruby would be that he didn’t have any particular political feelings one way or another, and he wasn’t a great patriot and he wasn’t disloyal. As far as you knew he was just an ordinary American citizen.

Mr. Senator. He was a good, sound American citizen, and politics, he never messed around with that. He never messed around politically at all. The majority was connected with the music industry, the night life, you know, his club, his competitors, what they were doing.

Mr. Hubert. Coming back to the automobile and the radio——

Mr. Senator. Pardon me.

Mr. Hubert. Concerning the radio in the automobile, what was his custom about putting it on when he was riding? Was it his custom to put it on or not?

Mr. Senator. No, not. He normally didn’t put it on.

Mr. Hubert. Normally he would not put it on?

Mr. Senator. Normally he wouldn’t have it on. He also had one of the little transistors, one of these transistors that he had. The reason he had this transistor, of course he had it before I was around, the car he had before then, the radio didn’t work, so he had the transistor.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he keep it, in the automobile?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he laid it on the seat.

Mr. Hubert. Did he play it?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he put on the music.

Mr. Hubert. So that was his custom when he was driving around, instead of turning on the radio in the automobile?

Mr. Senator. I wouldn’t say at all times. Certain times he would put it on and play the music.

Mr. Hubert. He would play the transistor?

Mr. Senator. Yes. That was on the car he had when the radio, the car radio was not working.

Mr. Hubert. What was Ruby’s habit so far as you know concerning his finances, and his banking and so forth?

Mr. Senator. As far as I know about it, his bank was his pockets. Now, if he had any banking, I don’t know what he had in it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe then that he carried large sums of money?

Mr. Senator. Oh yes; always. Everybody knew that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, how did he carry it?

Mr. Senator. In ready cash.

Mr. Hubert. But I mean did he roll it up and put it in his pocket?

Mr. Senator. Rolled it up or have a string around it, not a string, you know, one of these rubber bands around it. He would carry some here and he would carry some here, and some here, and some in his back pocket. I don’t think he knew where he had it half the time.

Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that when the witness was saying “here, here and here,” he was pointing to various pockets.

Mr. Senator. This is the way. As a matter of fact, he used to say to me “George, where is my money,” because he can’t remember where he put his money.

Mr. Hubert. Now you were with him frequently when he closed up the Carousel at night and you would go home?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How was the money handled then, that is the receipts of that night?

Mr. Senator. In his pocket.

Mr. Hubert. We have heard something about a canvas bag, a money bag. Did you ever see that?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t know what he would have in the bag. You know when it comes to money, that is his business. It doesn’t get that close to me.

Mr. Hubert. No; we are just asking you what you observed, that is all, about his handling of it.

Mr. Senator. He has had money in the bag, and he has had it in his pockets. Now I don’t know what the separation could be unless he has got a certain amount of money for bills or what it is I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. When he had money in the bag where did he leave the bag?

Mr. Senator. The bag? In the trunk.

Mr. Hubert. In the trunk of the car?

Mr. Senator. While going home.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, when you would come out of the Carousel he would take his bag up, and it had money in it, and bring it and throw it in the trunk of the car?

Mr. Senator. Right. He would get home, open the trunk, take the bag up.

Mr. Hubert. Now, do you know anything about a gun that he had, a pistol?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what you know about it.

Mr. Senator. I know he had a pistol, one of the small ones. In the nature of his type business, carrying all this money, this cash with him, this is why he always had the gun with him.

Mr. Hubert. Did he keep the gun on his body?

Mr. Senator. At times he had it on his body and at times he had it in his pocket.

Mr. Hubert. Did he own a holster for the gun?

Mr. Senator. No; not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Either a shoulder holster or a hip holster?

Mr. Senator. No; I have never seen it.

Mr. Hubert. So when he carried a gun on his person where would he keep it?

Mr. Senator. It would be in his pants pocket or sometimes it may be in the bag.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know anything, from talking to him or otherwise, about the ownership of the Vegas Club? Who owned the Vegas, in other words, as far as you know?

Mr. Senator. As far as I know Jack Ruby owned it.

Mr. Hubert. Am I correct in assuming that your opinion on that point is from what he told you, or did he say anything else?

Mr. Senator. I always understood that he owned it, I mean as far as I know. Of course, there is a lot of things that I don’t know that he never told me, you know. He doesn’t expose everything.

Mr. Hubert. Eva Grant was actually the operator of it, wasn’t she?

Mr. Senator. Yes; but Eva always felt like she was the owner. This is a sister. Of course, she had it and managed it for quite a while. I don’t know how long she managed it, has been at the Vegas Club, because it was before me even, you know.

Mr. Hubert. On what do you base that opinion that she thought that she really was the owner?

Mr. Senator. Because I assumed that Jack was a brother and she felt it was like hers.

Mr. Hubert. You see what I am trying to get at is whether or not there are any statements or incidents that occurred which led you to the opinion that she thought she owned the Vegas. Do you see what I mean?

Mr. Senator. The only way I could express that is Jack used to say to me that “Eva thinks she owns the club,” because she has been staying there so long.

Mr. Hubert. How do they get along?

Mr. Senator. They are both of the same nature, like cats and dogs.

Mr. Hubert. I take it from that you mean they used to fight a lot.

Mr. Senator. Yes; because as well as Jack would holler, let me assure you she can holler too.

Mr. Hubert. And you have been a witness to some of those instances?

Mr. Senator. As a matter of fact, the further away the better.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t quite understand.

Mr. Senator. For me the further away the better. In other words, I shied away from all that. I didn’t want to listen to that kind of stuff.

Mr. Hubert. What you are saying is——

Mr. Senator. I am not happy over the fights.

Mr. Hubert. My question is how frequently it happened.

Mr. Senator. How frequent I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it began you would want to get away, is that the idea?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can’t hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is something that is flickering.

He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never want to work for her.

Mr. Hubert. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel? Do you know anything about that, who owned that?

Mr. Senator. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don’t remember who his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he had a partner in the Sovereign Club.

Mr. Hubert. Joe Slayton was it?

Mr. Senator. That is it, Joe Slayton.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn’t he?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign entirely?

Mr. Senator. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner.

Mr. Hubert. I mean after Slayton left.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know about that. That is a little before me.

Mr. Hubert. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it?

Mr. Senator. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don’t know what the breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it.

Mr. Hubert. Connected by way of ownership?

Mr. Senator. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he owned half or what it was I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. On what facts do you base that?

Mr. Senator. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What part he owned I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. What facts make you state that you know he had something to do with it? There must be something that occurred again.

Mr. Senator. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that club somehow.

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that Ralph Paul owned part of it?

Mr. Senator. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack, there was an awful lot of things he didn’t tell me circularwise. You can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or ownership?

Mr. Senator. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course, this is after this whole deal happened.

Mr. Hubert. The shooting?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did he tell you?

Mr. Senator. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He was part owner of that place.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when he told you that, and where?

Mr. Senator. He told me at the Carousel, but I don’t remember when. I mean I can’t specifically remember.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that he took over the management right away, as soon as Jack was in jail?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he did. Now, I don’t know how much he owned or how much Jack owned.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest?

Mr. Senator. Yes, there was, but how much I don’t know. In other words, I don’t know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in it?

Mr. Senator. To my knowledge. I don’t know of anybody else.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible interest in it?

Mr. Senator. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Earl?

Mr. Senator. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all this happened.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t know him before that?

Mr. Senator. Never seen him before in my life.

Mr. Hubert. What about Sam?

Mr. Senator. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with Eva, and they couldn’t get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats and dogs. Eva is just a hard girl to work for.

Mr. Hubert. What was Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the police as a group?

Mr. Senator. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They always used to come to see him.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who they were?

Mr. Senator. I knew a lot of them by face. I didn’t know them all by name.

Mr. Hubert. Did they come frequently?

Mr. Senator. Various ones, yes, every day. I don’t say it is the same ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or police in uniforms.

Mr. Hubert. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of entertainment?

Mr. Senator. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke.

Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t it a rule in fact that they could get such little items as coffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost? He gave them that?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that was the nature of it.

Mr. Hubert. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They didn’t pay that, if they came socially?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. You have been on the door yourself?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any instructions on that?

Mr. Senator. No, they didn’t pay entry.

Mr. Hubert. Did they pay for drinks?

Mr. Senator. They had a special rate.

Mr. Hubert. What was it?

Mr. Senator. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his—in other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say “where can you go,” they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they may bring them.

So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack’s, and they paid a special price for drinks.

Mr. Hubert. And they didn’t pay the admission charge?

Mr. Senator. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage, they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no different for anybody. It was all one price, the special.

In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups, whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that area, he always let them in free.

I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course, these weren’t people of tremendous means or of that nature, and everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks.

Mr. Griffin. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the Vegas Club or did he own part of that building?

Mr. Senator. No, I think he rented it.

Mr. Griffin. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that operation out there——

Mr. Senator. Not owning the building.

Mr. Griffin. You are not talking about any real estate.

Mr. Senator. No, no.

Mr. Griffin. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He had tables and chairs?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And a piano maybe?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about ownership?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Right?

Mr. Senator. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise or the things in the place, not only the building.

Mr. Griffin. How about the right to get the profits if there were any? Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the profits, or did they share it in some way?

Mr. Senator. This part I don’t know. All I know is the money was handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of my—wasn’t any of my business.

Mr. Griffin. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that night’s receipts and he would take them down to his car, right?

Mr. Senator. Either that or put them in his pocket.

Mr. Griffin. Or put them in his pocket?

Mr. Senator. Yes, whichever he saw fit.

Mr. Griffin. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What would he do with it in the apartment?

Mr. Senator. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a safe back in the apartment?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night?

Mr. Senator. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas Club—you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later.

I don’t know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until 3 o’clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it.

Mr. Griffin. But you say Jack wouldn’t go there every night?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say, of course, I can’t always say, I don’t always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during the week I don’t say that he probably hasn’t jumped over there, because if he has I don’t even know, because when he does go out he doesn’t tell me his moves where he is going.

Mr. Griffin. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel Club?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how long he lived there before me. I don’t know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn’t there too long.

Mr. Griffin. Were you there a week or 2 weeks?

Mr. Senator. It might be. I just don’t remember how long it could be. It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don’t know. It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork. I am only guessing.

Mr. Griffin. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas Club?