TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED (continued 2)

Mr. Griffin. What is the significance of that entry?

Mr. Crafard. Jack had me calling the beauty salons trying to get them to promote this twist board for him.

Mr. Griffin. And did you call more than one beauty salon?

Mr. Crafard. I called several of them around Dallas. I don’t remember calling any in Fort Worth.

Mr. Griffin. What would you do when you would call these beauty salons.

Mr. Crafard. Talk to them about the twist boards.

Mr. Griffin. How would a typical conversation go.

Mr. Crafard. I’d call them and tell them——

Mr. Griffin. Introduce yourself?

Mr. Crafard. Introduce myself and tell them that I was promoting a twist board exerciser and tell them a little bit about the exerciser and that we would like to arrange a deal where we could put this exerciser in their salon, put it for sale in their salons.

Mr. Griffin. And did you make any placements?

Mr. Crafard. No sir. Excuse me, but this one here was 2140 Fort Worth Avenue in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Griffin. That would be in Dallas.

Mr. Crafard. Yes. The phone number would be WH 6-9755. Underneath that is mail brochure. I believe we were supposed to mail a brochure to them.

Mr. Griffin. Are you sure that is mail brochure and not Maisel Brothers.

Mr. Crafard. No, I am positive that is mail brochure, almost positive of that.

Mr. Griffin. And what were you supposed to do?

Mr. Crafard. Mail a brochure to this Stevens Park Beauty Salon.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack have brochures printed up?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How long after you started to work for him did he have these brochures? When did he first have them?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated he got them. He hadn’t got them very long.

Mr. Griffin. Can you describe the brochures? How many pages were they?

Mr. Crafard. One page. It was a sheet, I believe it was 7½ inches long and I believe it was about 5½ inches wide.

It said “Twist a waist exerciser,” and then it showed an exerciser board. Then I believe it showed a couple of the different positions of a person on an exerciser board. I am not positive of that.

Mr. Griffin. How big were these twist boards?

Mr. Crafard. They were about an 8-inch square.

Mr. Griffin. What were they made out of?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was a 1½-inch pressed board.

Mr. Griffin. That would be wood of some sort.

Mr. Crafard. Pressed wood.

Mr. Griffin. Is that a fiberboard?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. It is not a plastic though?

Mr. Crafard. I believe these boards were made out of sort of a plastic glue in the press board. Then underneath that would be a ball-bearing disk, sort of a twist setup with a small piece of masonite attached to the bottom of that. The board would twist on the ball bearings.

Mr. Griffin. And would you lie on the floor on this thing?

Mr. Crafard. No; you would stand on it and twist.

Mr. Griffin. Who designed this item?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know who originally designed the item.

Mr. Griffin. Did you get the impression that Jack had designed it himself?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t really know, sir. I never got any idea of who had designed it.

Mr. Griffin. Now the brochure, did it have a picture of the twist board on it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so. I am not positive of that.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 7, doesn’t it.

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. The front part of page 7.

Now turning to the back of page 7, there are some entries in pencil, are those all in your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now what is the first entry?

Mr. Crafard. Ed McMulmore it looks like. It is probably spelled wrong.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember that name?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir. I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. And then there is two telephone numbers written after that.

Mr. Crafard. There is the word “Johnnie call Detroit.”

Mr. Griffin. But there are two telephone numbers.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And then the note “Johnnie call Detroit Helene.” What does that have to do with—?

Mr. Crafard. Johnnie was the first name of one of the MC’s Jack had working for him. I don’t recall the last name. He got a call to call Detroit, to call Helene in Detroit. Apparently he had the number because that is all I got. I was told to have him call Helene in Detroit.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know who Helene was?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir. I thought it was possibly his wife.

Mr. Griffin. Then there are three blank lines.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And a number written upside down. What number is that?

Mr. Crafard. That is RI 6-6807.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize that number?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. I don’t believe that is my handwriting. It doesn’t appear to be. For one thing for the fact that it is wrote with the page turned upside down, for one thing, and the numbers aren’t shaped like any numbers are shaped.

Mr. Griffin. Is it possible, referring to the top of the page, that this entry which looks like Ed McMulmore is really Ed Mc, and then Mulmore?

Mr. Crafard. It could be; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Would that mean anything to you reading it that way?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now written on the right side up on the back of page 7 after the entry RI 6-6807, there is another entry. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. CEN, which would be I believe the abbreviation for Central, and EX, which I believe would be the abbreviation for Expressway, dash 5400.

Mr. Griffin. What does that have to do with?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t think anything. I believe that is my writing. Let me see.

Mr. Griffin. It is or is not?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it is. Wait a minute, Jack was going somewhere or somebody else was going for him and he was having trouble, didn’t know how to get there. Somebody was going somewhere and they didn’t know how to get there and I was talking to the people they was going to see and they told me to have him turn at Central Expressway 5400 on McKinney to 2500.

Mr. Griffin. Those are directions to get to some place?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; McKinney, but I don’t remember where.

Mr. Griffin. And were they directions for you or for Jack?

Mr. Crafard. For somebody else. I don’t recall who it was for.

Mr. Griffin. For a friend of Jack’s?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall. I give the directions to somebody else but I don’t recall who it was.

Mr. Griffin. Now is it your understanding then that you would drive out Central Expressway to the 5400 block?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And then at the 5400 block you would find McKinney?

Mr. Crafard. Make a right-hand turn I believe on McKinney, the 2500 block.

Mr. Griffin. What makes you think you make a right-hand turn?

Mr. Crafard. I remember something about the conversation. I am trying to remember. I can’t remember too much of it.

Mr. Griffin. Was that a conversation you had with somebody on the telephone?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was. I am not positive. I would not swear to it but I believe it was over the telephone that I was given these directions.

Mr. Griffin. And you were to pass the directions on to somebody else?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What part of Dallas would that be in, following those directions?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it would be the southern portion of Dallas, I am not sure. It seems to me 5400 on Central would be the other end of Dallas, the southern end.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back part of page 7. Now on page 8 there are some entries. Whose entries are those?

Mr. Crafard. These are my entries.

Mr. Griffin. All right, the first one has to do with somebody named Lenard Woods.

Mr. Crafard. Lenard Woods, his social security number, his address, 3420 Medow, Apt. No. 235. These gentlemen on this page are all members of the band that played at the Vegas Club, and it would be Milton Thomas, his social security number, with the address 2220 Anderson, the phone number HA 1-1026; Clarence McInnis, social security number, the address 2607 Oakland, no phone number; James Dotson, the social security number, the address 1136 Fletcher, his phone number RI 7-7436; the name James T. Aycox, his social security number, 2715 Hebornia; I believe it is with a notation under that that he also was known as Bear; they called him the Bear. His phone number was HA 1-1026.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to come to put all of those notations in there?

Mr. Crafard. Jack’s sister took sick. He had me get the names and the addresses of the boys. I had understood him to say he wanted it for tax purposes and I got the social security numbers too, so he could get in touch with them for one thing when he did want to get in touch with them and also for he said tax purposes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see these men at the Vegas Club and get the information there or did you call them?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I got these from, it was either Jack’s sister or Pauline. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front side of page 8.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. On the back of page 8 there are some entries. What are those entries?

Mr. Crafard. The numbers, the phone number WH 3-9783. That doesn’t mean anything to me whatsoever. The phone number TA 7-9088. I can’t make out what is underneath it.

Mr. Griffin. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure. It could be.

Mr. Griffin. And this telephone number doesn’t mean anything to you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 8. Let’s look at page 9.

There are some entries there. Are those in your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember every making an entry of that sort. For one thing this phone number has been gone over two or three times. These numbers $3, $3.50, that has no meaning whatsoever to me. None of this has any meaning to me whatsoever. I don’t recall ever making an entry of that sort.

Mr. Griffin. Can you ever even decipher this 18 and then a 12 and then something is written. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. It looks like M-M-L-E-S or it could be M-E-B-L-S. That is as close as I can come to it.

Mr. Griffin. There is a telephone number RI 7-5610 also on that page.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And is that in your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so. It could be. It could be, I am not positive.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 9, doesn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. The front part. And there is nothing written on the back of page 9.

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. And there is nothing written on the front or back of page 10.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing written on the front or back of what is left of that. Now on page 12 there are some items “supporter, shaving cream, after shave lotion, tooth brush, code 10 hair cream.”

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Are those in your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And they are personal items?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. That you purchased for yourself?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How long after you began to work for Jack was that entry made?

Mr. Crafard. I believe about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.

Mr. Griffin. How long before you left?

Mr. Crafard. That would be at least 4 or 5 weeks before I left.

Mr. Griffin. That is on the front part of page 12 and there is nothing else on the front part of page 12. On the back part of page 12 there are a number of entries. Can you read those off to us.

Mr. Crafard. The name Bonnie?

Mr. Griffin. Who is Bonnie?

Mr. Crafard. She is one of the waitresses at the Carousel Club.

Mr. Griffin. What is after that?

Mr. Crafard. Salami, swiss cheese on rye with mayonnaise.

Mr. Griffin. And then what is the entry.

Mr. Crafard. Ham and cheese with mayonnaise.

Mr. Griffin. There is an M or something up ahead.

Mr. Crafard. That signifies the mayonnaise.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Crafard. PS, I don’t know exactly what that PS meant there. There is ham and cheese with mayonnaise. I am not sure what the first part of this was.

Mr. Griffin. Would that be Betty or Becky.

Mr. Crafard. It might have been Becky, probably Becky; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was there a girl there named Becky, a waitress?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; a waitress. Then the next entry on the page is Bill Remike.

Mr. Griffin. Who is he?

Mr. Crafard. He called in for reservations at the Carousel Club. To continue with that, Bill Remike, two couples at 9:30 they asked for good locations. The next entry on that is the name Proctor, one couple at 9 o’clock.

Mr. Griffin. That is also a reservation.

Mr. Crafard. Also a reservation.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back of page 12.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now page 13, there is an entry.

Mr. Crafard. The phone number WH 2-5326, Bobby Patterson.

Mr. Griffin. Who is Bobby Patterson.

Mr. Crafard. I believe he was at the Vegas Club, one of the players at the Vegas Club. I don’t have his name down. He had something to do with the band at the Vegas Club.

Mr. Griffin. Was he somebody that you saw? Had you met him?

Mr. Crafard. I met Bobby Patterson; yes.

Mr. Griffin. How many times would you say you met him?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I saw him once or twice.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you see him?

Mr. Crafard. I believe once at the Carousel Club and I believe I saw him at the Vegas Club one time.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall now the time you saw him at the Carousel, when was that?

Mr. Crafard. He come in in the afternoon and talked to Jack.

Mr. Griffin. And do you recall how long he stayed?

Mr. Crafard. He wasn’t there very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the most.

Mr. Griffin. And do you recall what he talked about with him?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was something about, had something to do with who was in charge of the band at the Carousel or the Vegas Club or something of that sort. I am not positive.

Mr. Griffin. How about the time that you think you saw him at the Vegas Club.

Mr. Crafard. I believe one night when I went over with Jack he was there. He played at the Vegas Club. I am trying to get it straight. I think he was a guitar player. No; wait a minute, a horn player, saxophone player I believe it was. And this buddy of his, they had an act where the buddy lay down across two chairs and he stepped up on his buddy’s chest and he stood on his buddy’s chest playing his horn.

I believe that was Bobby Patterson. I am not positive.

Mr. Griffin. Could this guy have been a police officer?

Mr. Crafard. No; I am very doubtful of that.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t know any Bobby Patterson who was a police officer?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. And there is no question that you had met a guy named Bobby Patterson.

Mr. Crafard. No question there; no.

Mr. Griffin. Would Andy Armstrong know Bobby Patterson?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe he would.

Mr. Griffin. That entry is in pencil and there is a line with nothing written on it and then there is another entry under that. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. It appears to be 3902 East Waco.

Mr. Griffin. Who made that entry?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Griffin. I believe you testified before you didn’t think that was your handwriting.

Mr. Crafard. No. I would change that. I would say that was 0902 if you take a close look at it. You can see that, 0902 East Waco.

Mr. Griffin. Or could it be E Street Waco?

Mr. Crafard. It might be that, but I never made the entry, I would remember it if I saw it.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front part of page 13. On the back of page 13 there are some entries. What do those seem to be?

Mr. Crafard. I’d say the first one would be call Jack at the Carousel. The next one would be call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel. The next one would be Tex Lacy. It is prevedo I would say or something like that. That is all I can make out. Pre, and v-e-d-o.

Mr. Griffin. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. Crafard. No. Were these entries “call Jack Carousel” and “Call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel,” were these your entries?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. I believe this would be my entry here, too. I am not positive.

Mr. Griffin. And were those notes for yourself or——

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was something I told somebody else or something. I don’t even—I can’t even figure why I would write it down. I don’t know. That doesn’t really look like my handwriting. I wouldn’t have put “Call Mr. Ruby.” I’d put “Call Jack.” And this looks like “Mr.” up at the top of the page. It is something I can’t ever remember putting something like that on the top of a page without finishing it.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back portion of page 13. Page 14 is about a third of a sheet written in pencil.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What does that say?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure what it is.

Mr. Griffin. You indicated this is Boeing and something or other afterward.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And then “Frank Fisher.”

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who is Frank Fisher?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Griffin. But you indicated before that you thought that was in connection with twist boards.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I did.

Mr. Griffin. Do you still think that?

Mr. Crafard. It could be twist boards or something to do with these dogs.

Mr. Griffin. Why do you think something to do with the dogs?

Mr. Crafard. Boeing would be possibly Boeing Aircraft and I was making arrangements to ship one of the dogs to California, so it could be something to do with one of the dogs.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall a Frank Fisher who was a musician and who was a friend of Jack Ruby’s?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe I ever met him. I am not positive.

Mr. Griffin. That information doesn’t refresh your recollection about Frank Fisher at all?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front part of page 14. On the back of page 14 there is a telephone number.

Mr. Crafard. TA 7-2553. I don’t recall what the number would be.

Mr. Griffin. And then a notation about?

Mr. Crafard. “Tuna fish with lettuce wholewheat toast dry.”

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back of page 14. Now on page 15 at the top there is an entry. What is that entry?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it is Charley Boland, KTVT with a number LA 6-8303.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember making a call to that number?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember anything about that notation?

Mr. Crafard. No; sir. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. Griffin. How about the next telephone number on there, WE 7-3837?

Mr. Crafard. That doesn’t mean anything to me. I believe I stated before I didn’t believe I put that down.

Mr. Griffin. How about “Herman Flowers,” that doesn’t mean anything to you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. So the entry here “Herman Flowers from Wax a Hatchy” is the last entry on the front part of page 15.

We will turn that over and on the back of page 15 there are a lot of numbers written down.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What do those numbers have to do with?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea. It is definitely not my figuring.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. Griffin. We are on page 16 and we are looking at the first entry on the page. What does that entry appear to be?

Mr. Crafard. “K. Hamilton.”

Mr. Griffin. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. Crafard. No; the rest of the page, I would say that it was somebody had called in for reservations.

Mr. Griffin. It says, “9—3 couples between runway.”

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And that page 16 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing more on the page, and turning it over on the back part of that half sheet of paper there is an entry. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. “Mr. Miller Friday 15 people Collins Radio Co.” It would be somebody called in for reservations for 15 people.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is another entry under that.

Mr. Crafard. “Cody-City Hall.”

Mr. Griffin. Did you know who Cody was?

Mr. Crafard. Jack had said something about it. I think he was an officer of the law. I’m not sure if he was an officer of the law or a lawyer, or what he was.

Mr. Griffin. What do you recall? Do you recall the name Joe Cody?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t recall the first name of the gentleman.

Mr. Griffin. What do you recall that Jack said about Cody?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall what Jack really did say. It had something to do with when he give it to me it was something to do with city hall, he had to see him, or he wanted me to remind him to call him, or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. When would this have been?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall.

Mr. Griffin. Shortly before you left?

Mr. Crafard. It might have been 2 or 3 weeks. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. There is nothing further on that half sheet of paper, is there?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now, looking at the top of page 17 there is a number written. What is that number?

Mr. Crafard. “TA 3-8101.”

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whose number that is?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that would be the doctor’s number. I’m not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Under there is written the name “Dr. Aranoff.”

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Is that your writing?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember who Dr. Aranoff was?

Mr. Crafard. He was Mrs. Grant’s doctor, as I recall it.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any conversation with him?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall. I never had any conversation with the doctor.

Mr. Griffin. There is a line with nothing written on it. And the next line has what looks like a telephone number on it. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. The number “FR 4-2764.”

Mr. Griffin. Is that a Dallas telephone number?

Mr. Crafard. I am not positive of that. It might be.

Mr. Griffin. Is the number familiar to you at all?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t recall the number at all.

Mr. Griffin. And on the next line, what is written?

Mr. Crafard. “LA 8-4716,” the name “Debby.”

Mr. Griffin. Is the name Debby familiar to you?

Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there is another line.

Mr. Crafard. “Overton Rd.,” and “Hawthorne” underneath, it would be Hawthorne Road Drive, I believe, “Porta Build, Inc.” company. This is all something of my own here.

Mr. Griffin. What did that have to do with?

Mr. Crafard. This is all on my own. At that time, I was going to try to get in touch with my brother-in-law who lives in Dallas, Tex., and this Overton Road, I believe, is where one of the people that I went to church with lived, out on Hawthorne Drive.

Mr. Griffin. How about Porta——

Mr. Crafard. I had at one time worked for Porter Building Corp.

Mr. Griffin. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When had you worked for them?

Mr. Crafard. I had worked for them the year before, the previous year.

Mr. Griffin. Were you going to contact them?

Mr. Crafard. I was thinking about, maybe seeing if they needed any men down there, or something.

Mr. Griffin. When did you make that entry?

Mr. Crafard. This was about a month before President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever contact them about a job?

Mr. Crafard. I called them one time, I believe, and the gentleman wasn’t there that I had talked to, and I never called back. The Litot Trailer Park, that is where we was staying, where my wife and I lived when we was living in Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. That is the next entry on there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How about the telephone number?

Mr. Crafard. That is the number of the Litot Trailer Park.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 17, the front half. On the back half of page 17 there is a notation. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. Call Buddy Heard, El Paso, dial direct, tell them that you are in town, that you are a friend and would like to get in touch with him. This is something for Andy. He was to call Buddy Heard in El Paso.

Mr. Griffin. Did Andy go to El Paso?

Mr. Crafard. No; he was to make a call; dial direct to El Paso as if he was in El Paso. I don’t remember exactly what it had something to do with. It seemed like this Buddy here was a comedian or something that Jack was trying to hire or something of that sort.

Mr. Griffin. Was Andy going to try to hire him?

Mr. Crafard. I think it was just he was doing that for Jack, trying to find out how to get in touch with him. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there are two lines with no writing on them, and then there is another entry. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. The name Mary.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know anybody named Mary, in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. It has no meaning to me except the fact that my sister-in-law’s name is Mary.

Mr. Griffin. How about the telephone number under that?

Mr. Crafard. It has no meaning to me whatsoever.

Mr. Griffin. And then the next telephone number?

Mr. Crafard. It has no meaning, either.

Mr. Griffin. That last telephone number on the page is RI 1-1456, and the other telephone number on that page is DA 4-4378. That concludes the back of page 17. Turning over to page 18, there are some entries on there. What is the first entry on the page?

Mr. Crafard. It is D 2 with a dash and then the figure 175, $1.75.

Mr. Griffin. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure unless it is maybe some draws I took that day or something.

Mr. Griffin. Are you sure that is $2 and not $200?

Mr. Crafard. It might possibly be $200.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any dealings with anybody about spending $200?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Griffin. What is the notation after that?

Mr. Crafard. Jack took $20 from the bar till.

Mr. Griffin. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall when that was?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t recall.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is another entry after that, “Pete White Atty.”

Mr. Crafard. Pete White, attorney, Fidelity Union Life Building, with a number, RI 1-1295.

Mr. Griffin. Did you make that entry?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall anything about Pete White?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now, what is the next entry on there?

Mr. Crafard. The next entry has to do with the twist boards. It is, “Call beauty salon; tell them that I have a twist-a-waist exerciser,” and let them have it for $2; in quantities for $1.75 each.

Mr. Griffin. Is it fair to suggest that the $2-175 that is written at the top of the page and this same entry about $2 and $1.75 both relate to twist boards?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front part of page 18. Turning over to page 18——

Mr. Crafard. The first thing on the page is “Jimmy Rhodes can tell where to get blowups at.” Some blowups of some pictures that Jack wanted and this fellow Jimmy Rhodes could tell him where to get them at.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Jimmy Rhodes?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. Crafard. I heard Jack mention the name.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and the name?

Mr. Crafard. Mr. Wooldridge.

Mr. Griffin. Who is he?

Mr. Crafard. I am not positive.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have some idea?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. There is another line with nothing written on it. Then there is a telephone number.

Mr. Crafard. The number WH 6-6220.

Mr. Griffin. Does that number mean anything to you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. And there is another line with nothing written on it; and the notation “8-5 tomorrow.” What did that have to do with?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. There is another line with nothing written on it. And the name Bob Litchfield.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember him?

Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. And a telephone number after that.

Mr. Crafard. It is TA 7-9301.

Mr. Griffin. And then a name after that.

Mr. Crafard. Mrs. Moddy.

Mr. Griffin. Who is she?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was his bookkeeper. I’m not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there are some numbers. That concludes page 18, does it not?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. With the exception of a telephone number, RI 7-5311, which is right under the name Mrs. Moddy.

Mr. Crafard. I imagine it is her number.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is some writing on the inside of the back cover. There are three telephone numbers, RI 7-7436, CH 2-3442, CH 2-4114. What do those numbers relate to, if you know?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there is another number Newton. There is a name Newton. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not positive of that. It doesn’t appear to be my writing.

Mr. Griffin. What is the number written under the name Newton?

Mr. Crafard. 2550.

Mr. Griffin. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. That is not your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. No. I don’t ever recall of having wrote any of those written in ink.

Mr. Griffin. That would be everything on that page except the RI 7-7436?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. Now, on the outside portion of the back cover there are some other things written on there. See if you can tell us what those are.

Mr. Crafard. The name J. L. Coxsey.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know this person?

Mr. Crafard. No. The name Coxsey is the name of one of the gentlemen I went to church with when my wife and I were living in Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. How would that be spelled?

Mr. Crafard. His name was Lee Coxsey.

Mr. Griffin. Is that the same gentleman?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so. And there is the number under that that I can’t make out. Then there is a number EV 1-6979, and there is, it looks like LV or something. I can’t understand that a bit. There is the number FL 2-8995.

Mr. Griffin. Are those things in your handwriting?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where you left that book when you departed from Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. It was either in Jack’s office or in the room right in front of his office where I slept days. I’m not positive whether I left it on his desk or on a stand in my room.

Mr. Griffin. But in any event did you leave it in the open, or did you leave it in a drawer?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was lying right out on top of a table or a desk, whichever it was. I’m not positive.

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert do you have any questions you want to ask?

Mr. Hubert. Did I understand you to say earlier this morning that normally you kept that book on your person?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t leave it hanging around?

Mr. Crafard. That is right. On occasion, Jack would be there and I would be giving him a number and he would want me to go down maybe get a paper or something like that and I’d leave the book lay on one of the tables near the phone and go down and come back up.

Mr. Hubert. Then you would get your book back?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I guess it is fair to say, then, that except for those occasions, and then when you left the book, when you departed from Dallas, the book was always in your possession?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever notice that some of the entries were made by someone else in that book prior to the time you left for Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Are you willing to say that they were not made prior to the time you left for Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, specifically, some of the entries that you have said are not in your handwriting——

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Were not in that book when you left for Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. What makes you sure of that?

Mr. Crafard. Nobody else had wrote in the book.

Mr. Hubert. No one had a chance to?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Jack would have had a chance to on a few occasions?

Mr. Crafard. On a couple of occasions he had a notebook just like it that he carried himself.

Mr. Hubert. But you never saw these entries even after Jack had occasion to write them in?

Mr. Crafard. That is right. I never noticed them.

Mr. Hubert. And no one else had a chance to write them in?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Would it have been possible that those entries were written prior to the time you left Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I doubt it very much. It was possible, but I doubt very much if they were.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you testified this morning earlier, too, that the book seemed to be somewhat different from when you last saw it in Dallas.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. In what ways did it seem different?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there were more pages in it than was there.

Mr. Hubert. Pages with writing, or blank pages?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall whether they was all blank pages or whether they had writing on them, or what.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it this way: Do you recall any particular pages that are not in that book at the present time?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You are not in a position to say, then, really, that any pages with information on them have been taken out?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Your impression that the book is different than it was before you left Dallas is based then upon the size of the book?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Does it seem to have fewer blank pages now than it did before?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. I thought there was half a dozen or so blank pages in the middle of the book last time I used it.

Mr. Hubert. What was your purpose in leaving the book in Dallas when you determined to go away?

Mr. Crafard. There was numbers that, to me, that had to do with this business and they didn’t mean anything to me, so I just left it there.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do that deliberately?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. I figured they was numbers that he wanted. It didn’t mean anything to me. I had no use for it.

Mr. Hubert. You wanted to see that he got them?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know where you left the book?

Mr. Crafard. I either left it—I am not positive exactly where I left it. It was either in his office on the desk or in my room on a stand where he would have saw it.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us why you didn’t write a note saying why you were leaving, where you would be?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t say why other than what I have said the other day.

Mr. Hubert. Were you aware that Jack would argue you into staying?

Mr. Crafard. I thought he probably would; if I called him or anything he would probably do his best to get me to stay, and I had made up my mind to leave and I didn’t want to have to argue with him.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, that wouldn’t have prevented your writing a note.

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or of calling Armstrong.

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t even think about it a bit.

Mr. Griffin. Did you think at all about calling anybody?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. This wasn’t even a matter that you pondered as to whether you should or should not call?

Mr. Crafard. No; nothing I had thought of. I never had any idea. I didn’t feel that there was any real reason for me to call anyone.

Mr. Hubert. I think you told me that you felt grateful to Jack for what he had done for you.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that the motivation for your leaving was not any anger.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. On your part against him, but, rather, that you wanted to see your sister?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t think you owed it to him just to leave him a note?

Mr. Crafard. It just never entered my mind.

Mr. Hubert. Did it occur to you that there might be a question of how much cash you had in fact taken?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. What about the salary that was owed to you? Weren’t you interested in that?

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t even think about it.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t say goodbye to anybody when you left Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t advise anyone that you were leaving Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. No; other than the fact that I give the key to the boy at the parking lot and told him to tell Jack goodbye for me.

Mr. Hubert. You did send a message of goodbye to Jack through this man?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave word where you would be?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you leave any message to the effect that you had taken $5 out of the till?

Mr. Crafard. I left a draw slip in the till just like I always have.

Mr. Hubert. Were you in any kind of trouble there with a girl or something of that sort?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. That required you to leave as hastily as you did?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Is it your custom to move around like that without leaving any contact points?

Mr. Crafard. Quite frequently; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Who knew you were working at the Carousel among your family or friends?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I had wrote my cousin and informed her. I believe I wrote my mother and informed her.

Mr. Hubert. This girl Gail knew it?

Mr. Crafard. That is my cousin.

Mr. Hubert. That is your cousin?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; the cousin I was referring to at this time.

Mr. Hubert. What did you expect to have happen to the mail that you got at the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t even realize I had left any mail. I had wrote to the people. I hadn’t been getting any answers. My mother doesn’t write an awful lot, and I hadn’t got any letters from my cousin for a little while. My sister hadn’t answered the letter I wrote to her, so I just——

Mr. Hubert. Weren’t you going out with a girl that you had gotten fairly close to by that time?

Mr. Crafard. She had left Texas at this time. She had left Texas and, as far as I know, went out to California.

Mr. Hubert. Was there anybody else that you were interested in there?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you say to us now that in your opinion, and by this I mean your departure from Dallas under the circumstances you did depart was normal in your life?

Mr. Crafard. Somewhat, yes; most of the time I go to leave, I just take off and go.

Mr. Hubert. You have done that before?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Many times?

Mr. Crafard. I’ve done it two or three times I can recall. I usually leave from around my people, if I’m around my sister I’ll say something to her that I’m going to take off and where I plan on going. If I leave home I usually say something to the folks on where I plan on going.

Mr. Hubert. After you found out that Jack had killed Oswald, did it ever occur to you that the way in which you had left Dallas might seem odd?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it did occur to me that it might seem very odd.

Mr. Hubert. Did you communicate that view to anyone?

Mr. Crafard. I think I said something to my sister to the effect that I thought it might be kind of suspicious the way I had left Dallas, so suddenly, without saying anything to anybody.

Mr. Hubert. Did you say that to your cousin, too?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure if I said anything to Gail about that or not.

Mr. Hubert. I think you told us that you spoke to your cousin, I am talking about Roberts now, about the fact that you had left Dallas on Saturday evening and the manner in which you left.

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall saying anything to him about the fact that I thought it might be suspicious.

Mr. Hubert. No; I am not suggesting that. But what I want to ask you is whether he thought that the way in which you left might throw some suspicion.

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall him saying anything about it, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did it occur to you that perhaps one easy way to clarify your position would be to contact the FBI or some police agency and tell them where you were?

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t think about that. I figured that if they were looking for me, if I had heard anything about the fact that they were looking for me I figured I’d go to the nearest police station and tell them who I was and that they was looking for me. But that is the only thing I thought about on that.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you rather know that they were looking for you?

Mr. Crafard. I wasn’t positive that they were. I thought they might be; yes.

Mr. Hubert. You had a pretty good idea that they might be?

Mr. Crafard. Like I say, I thought they might be looking for me but I wasn’t positive.

Mr. Hubert. Wouldn’t you want to find out positive evidence they were looking for you?

Mr. Crafard. If there had been any definite evidence they were looking for me, I would have went into the nearest police station and told them who I was.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by definite evidence?

Mr. Crafard. The fact I knew for sure they were. I said I just thought that they might be.

Mr. Hubert. You just told us that you thought that they might be?

Mr. Crafard. That is right; I said that I thought they might be.

Mr. Hubert. That wasn’t enough to cause you to——

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; it isn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Were you contemplating, as a matter of fact, going to some police agency prior to the time the FBI came to you?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe that I was.

Mr. Hubert. How did you expect to get this positive evidence that they were looking for you?

Mr. Crafard. I just figured if it was possible they might put something in the paper or maybe something over the radio or something and if I heard that they was looking for a young fellow that had worked for Ruby by the name of Larry or anything like that, they was looking for this young fellow that had worked for Ruby or anything, that I would have went in and told them who I was.

Mr. Hubert. I understood you said there was no radio or newspaper at your sister’s house.

Mr. Crafard. No; but I was at other people’s places that had radios.

Mr. Hubert. You expected to get the information that way?

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t stay with my sister all the time.

Mr. Hubert. So that you were making an effort to find out if they were looking for you?

Mr. Crafard. I was where I would have found out if it was so, yes, on several occasions.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you went to listen to radio programs or TV programs with an effort to find out, among other things, whether they were looking for you?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. So that you might communicate with them and tell them where you were?

Mr. Crafard. That is right. I figured one thing. I hadn’t done anything wrong. I had no reason to hide from anything because I hadn’t done anything wrong, so if there had been any indication whatsoever that they was looking for me I would have walked into the nearest police station and turned myself in.

Mr. Griffin. Did you feel that anybody else had done anything wrong?

Mr. Crafard. No. I knew from what I had heard that Ruby had killed, shot Oswald, I knew it was wrong. Like I say, I mean I had no idea that anybody else connected with him had done anything.

Mr. Hubert. What made you think in the first place that there might be some suspicion cast upon you?

Mr. Crafard. Well, the way I left, after I found out that Ruby shot Oswald, the way I left, I thought just suddenly like that, didn’t leave any word to anybody where I was going or anything.

Mr. Hubert. How would that connect you with the killing of Oswald?

Mr. Crafard. I had been working for Ruby. He had shot Oswald. It could be kind of insinuating circumstances why I left and everything like that.

Mr. Hubert. But you had left before Oswald was shot?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had left before Oswald was shot.

Mr. Hubert. So that really your concern was not that they would connect you with the killing of Oswald?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. But that——

Mr. Crafard. They might think that I had done something wrong, myself.

Mr. Hubert. With reference to what?

Mr. Crafard. To anything. I mean breaking the law in any way.

Mr. Hubert. With reference to the shooting of the President, too?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. With reference to shooting of the President?

Mr. Crafard. Well, it could be that they might have thought I was involved in that in some way or something like that, and I just figured if they thought, you know, the way I had left if they had any idea at all that would further their idea, I mean if they had any idea that any of Ruby’s employees were involved in it, that would further the idea that I had been involved in this, in it.

Mr. Hubert. You actually thought about that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I felt——

Mr. Hubert. That was the thing that gave you concern and that is what you talked to your sister about?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it kind of bothered me a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. Couldn’t you have ended the bother by going to the nearest police force?

Mr. Crafard. I probably could have. I never even thought about going in like that, just walking in and talking to them, asking them about it or anything.

Mr. Griffin. Did you fear when you left Dallas that things might be happening which would get you in trouble?

Mr. Crafard. No; it never entered my mind. I figured that that would be the end of things when they had caught Oswald, I kind of figured that would be the end of it and he would come to trial.

Mr. Griffin. Did you fear that things might be happening which would get Jack or other people you knew in trouble?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it point blank to you, Larry. Did you think that possibly Ruby or someone among his friends might have had something to do with this and the best thing for you to do as an innocent person was to get out of there?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I didn’t, because if I had had the slightest idea that him or anybody he knew had anything to do with it, the first thing I would have done would have been to walk right straight down to the police station.

Mr. Hubert. Then when you found out that he had killed Oswald, didn’t it occur to you that he might be killing Oswald to remove the President’s murderer?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe it really did occur to me at that time; no.

Mr. Hubert. You see the point now, don’t you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I understand what you are trying to say. But later we discussed the fact that Oswald and Ruby might have been connected, as I believe everybody else has.

Mr. Griffin. Do you think there is anything, can you think of anything as a result of what you saw down there in Dallas that would indicate that Jack shot Oswald out of some kind of fear?

Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t really think of anything.

Mr. Griffin. Out of some motive of self-preservation other than, or not necessarily connected with the shooting of the President, but that he would have feared Oswald in any kind of a way?

Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t think of anything that would prove that, that would give me any reason to believe that.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have some idea on the basis of your experience with Jack and so forth as to why he shot Oswald?

Mr. Crafard. No; I haven’t, other than the fact that I believed ever since it happened that Jack was out of his mind. I believe right today that the man should be in a mental institution.

Mr. Griffin. Is that simply because you can’t conceive of anybody doing what he did, or from some other facts?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t conceive of a man that is in his right mind walking up to a man, just walking up to a man, putting a gun in his belly and pulling the trigger.

Mr. Griffin. In a police station?

Mr. Crafard. That is right, I can’t conceive of it, of any man that is in his right mind doing so.

Mr. Griffin. But, other than that, is there any indication that you had that Jack wasn’t in his right mind?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you saw him for a period of about maybe 18 hours after the President was shot. In that period that you saw him after the President was shot, is there anything that indicated to you that he wasn’t in his right mind in the way that, you know, his behavior was markedly different?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. From the way Jack Ruby usually acted?

Mr. Crafard. One thing he was kind of, when he would speak it was kind of a choppy way of speaking. He would say two or three words, wait and then say two or three more, which wasn’t usual for Jack. He might bust off in the middle of a sentence and then pause for a couple of seconds before he completed the sentence.

Mr. Griffin. Is this what you were referring to when you talked about Jack being nervous?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; very much that way.

Mr. Griffin. Was it the kind of nervousness that a man might have if he were afraid himself?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; that is possible, a man that was afraid for himself would be nervous like this; yes.

Mr. Hubert. You observed those conditions prior to the time you left?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. This nervous condition?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; on the night when we went out and took those pictures he was pretty well that way, he would talk in a burst and he would stop and then talk in a burst again.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Larry, isn’t it a fact that the reason why you left was because you didn’t want to have any part of what you saw going on then?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t understand what you mean by that.

Mr. Hubert. You saw Jack being nervous. You saw him taking all these pictures. You saw his great concern about the death of the President. Didn’t it occur to you, and isn’t it a fact that the reason you had left was because you figured that you didn’t want to have any part of anything that was going on, although you didn’t know what was going on? Isn’t that a fact?

Mr. Crafard. No. I cannot say that it is, because I had no idea there was anything going on, period.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anything about Jack that indicated to you a peculiar concern about the death of the President, that the death of the President itself was some sort of a concern, a great concern to him more than it seemed to be to you or to Andy or anybody else?

Mr. Crafard. It seemed to me more like it was more of a personal effect on him than it did on anybody else that I talked to very much.

Mr. Griffin. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t really explain it. To me, I was shocked and everything, but it wasn’t like it had been a member, more or less, say, a member of my own family. With him, it hit him more like it had been a member of his own family, it seemed to.

Mr. Griffin. There was something he said in that connection?

Mr. Crafard. I think he said something, but I don’t recall what he said.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this: Were you present when Jack learned that Officer Tippit had been shot?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so. I’m not sure. I think Jack was at the club or come to the club just shortly afterward.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember Jack’s talking about Officer Tippit?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I think he said he knew him.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack talk a lot about the death of the President?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe any more than anybody else did.

Mr. Griffin. How about Officer Tippit? Did he talk about that?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t recall as he said much about it other than the fact that he said he knew him.

Mr. Griffin. You indicated yesterday that you felt Jack’s concern over the death of the President was related to his concern for the convention business in Dallas. You remarked about his saying this is going to ruin the convention business.

Mr. Crafard. Something to that effect. That was one of the first things he said, but that was the only time he referred to it that I can recall.

Mr. Griffin. As you look at his activities, do you think that his concern or what had happened down in Dallas, meaning the death of the President and perhaps even the death of Officer Tippit, that Jack’s concern might have been more related to his fear about what would be happening to his business rather than any sympathy and grief over the man himself?

Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t say that he did. I mean it seems to me like if a man was really concerned about his business he wouldn’t have closed Friday night like he did. It seems to me like something like that—you know what I mean?

Mr. Griffin. But, again, that is an impression you are drawing from some sort of outside event?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. I am asking you to look at just what Jack was talking about and the things that he seemed to be concerned with and occupied with after the death of the President.

Were they things, was his conversation mostly about the President, or was it mostly about the things that he had to do in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was mostly about the President, as near as I can recall.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you talk with him at the Carousel about the President?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, while he was there the first time we was talking about it. I’m trying to recall there was something said there when he said something about he was going to be closed, that we was going to be closed that night. He seemed to think if we closed and the other clubs stayed open it might help a little bit, help the club a little bit, or something.

Mr. Griffin. So that in Jack’s mind closing was an aid to his business?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Larry, when you decided to go, to leave Dallas, I take it that you packed up all your belongings because you didn’t expect to come back.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I think you told us you had two little cases?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you search around to see that you had done all that needed to be done?

Mr. Crafard. I knew I had everything that I wanted to take with me. I left a couple old shirts and a pair of old pants, I believe, that I left there.

Mr. Hubert. And you left the book?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What about that letter that you had written to Gale?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t even recall a letter that I had wrote to her that I had left there.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know that there was a letter there with your aunt’s address on it?

Mr. Crafard. I had received a letter, but I believe I had threw the envelope into the waste basket or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. How long before you left had you received that letter?

Mr. Crafard. I think it had been probably about a week, I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Did it stay in the wastebasket all that time?

Mr. Crafard. I think I had it lay on my desk, on the table there, for a couple days, 3 or 4 days, or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. And then threw it in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; the wastebasket wouldn’t have gotten empty until I emptied it, and I wouldn’t have emptied it until it was full.

Mr. Hubert. Did anyone else know about your aunt, her address in Harrison?

Mr. Crafard. I believe Jack and Andy both knew that I had received a letter from my cousin.

Mr. Hubert. Your aunt and cousin? Well, it is Gail?

Mr. Crafard. Gail, Miss Eaton.

Mr. Hubert. How did they know that? How do you remember that they knew that?

Mr. Crafard. Well, the fact, the reason I remember it, there was some mail in on Jack’s desk for one of the guys and he told me to bring it out by the cash register on the front desk and give it to them when I went in, and when I went and got it there was this letter addressed to me. I said something to Jack because he hadn’t give it to me and he said he didn’t know that was my name, and Andy was there when I said something.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a record of your aunt’s address?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware of your aunt’s address or of Gail Eaton’s address?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she lived in Harrison.

Mr. Hubert. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory.

Mr. Hubert. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that she lived in Harrison?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin?

Mr. Crafard. A first cousin.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any sort of affection between you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; there was.

Mr. Hubert. Had you told that to the girls?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I said something to them about the fact.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had killed Oswald?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it. I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done with him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell her when you left?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell her or them—by them I mean your aunt and uncle—the circumstances under which you had left?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure if I did or not, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald’s being shot.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon Saturday.

Mr. Hubert. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about the matter?

Mr. Crafard. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby’s that had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was and that I had been working for Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife, expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about that I might be suspected of anything.

Mr. Hubert. The only one you really talked to about that was your sister?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came, didn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So that you really hadn’t had an opportunity to listen to any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one of Jack’s employees who had left suddenly?

Mr. Crafard. Not too much; no.

Mr. Hubert. Had you had any?

Mr. Crafard. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over the news that way.

Mr. Hubert. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed much earlier than when you got to see your sister?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It was formed when?

Mr. Crafard. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about that—that they was hunting for one of Ruby’s employees—I would have gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an employee of Ruby’s.

Mr. Hubert. I guess we had better break for lunch.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LAVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.)

Mr. Griffin. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at the beginning is still in effect for this deposition.

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left Dallas, and I might—I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that you would clarify the record on it.

I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George Senator?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What is your view of their relationship?

Mr. Crafard. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that topic, Mr. Hubert?

Mr. Hubert. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I did.

Mr. Hubert. But your point now is that they might be, but that you didn’t perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced homosexuality between themselves?

Mr. Crafard. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were both—appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed no—but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two of them in this way.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Griffin. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep secret from other people.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability, whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that activity?

Mr. Crafard. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him, I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of it.

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Griffin. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there—you have any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time.

Would you tell us what that was?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of the car.

Mr. Griffin. That is right.

Mr. Crafard. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I wasn’t positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was made before I left Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. Did you indicate to me you had some idea?

Mr. Crafard. I thought it had been Andrew.

Mr. Griffin. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You say before you left Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time?

Mr. Crafard. Before I left Dallas after the assassination.

Mr. Hubert. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been Andrew who said this because I had talked to him—been with him—more than I had been with anybody else on that day.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen Andrew since?

Mr. Crafard. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention it to him, then?

Mr. Crafard. No; I hadn’t even thought about it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he talk to you about it then?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o’clock in the afternoon of the 23d.

Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t see Andy after that, did you?

Mr. Crafard. I only saw Andy—I never saw Andy after the 22d, when President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. Hubert. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t Ruby who said that, was it?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t George Senator who said it?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see anybody else?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the phone?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. She didn’t mention it to you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong?

Mr. Crafard. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.

Mr. Hubert. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be Armstrong; isn’t that right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. There is no question about that?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Because you didn’t speak to anybody else that you could have gotten it from?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so. I didn’t read the papers on it too much. I had a couple of the papers——

Mr. Hubert. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other news media?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby—that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to what person that might have been?

Mr. Crafard. No; I cannot.

Mr. Hubert. Would it have been any of your relatives?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Would it have been anybody you worked with?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking.

Mr. Griffin. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on television Sunday.

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t see television Sunday, I was on the road all the time.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t stop in any restaurants or bars and watch television along the way?

Mr. Crafard. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and saw him on the morning after.

Mr. Hubert. On Monday?

Mr. Crafard. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby, when you called him at his home——

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key?

Mr. Crafard. Not to talk to anybody; no.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the assassination?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe we discussed it very much. He was telling me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I recall.

Mr. Griffin. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there was something said about the fact that I worked for Ruby.

Mr. Griffin. Did this man know Jack Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen Oswald at the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. Griffin. Had he ever been in the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. Griffin. Now, on Saturday—or on Friday, rather, the day of the assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. Some, yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember seeing Oswald’s picture on television on Friday?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember it, no.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember watching television or listening to the radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was the suspect?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see. I believe we heard that over the television.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you heard that?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to Eva Grant’s house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some detail?

Mr. Crafard. Just a vague outline is all I can do.

Mr. Griffin. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did first, how long you watched television, and so forth.

Mr. Crafard. I had the television on the rest of the day up until about—it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television off.

Mr. Griffin. Where was the television set located?

Mr. Crafard. In Jack’s office.

Mr. Griffin. How big an office did he have?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, about 10 by 10 or 10 by 12.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have chairs in there?

Mr. Crafard. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk.

Mr. Griffin. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office watching television?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into that office and start to watch television?

Mr. Crafard. Almost immediately.

Mr. Griffin. And how long did you stay in there?

Mr. Crafard. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and listened to Andy’s radio until the television warmed up, and then we watched television.

Mr. Griffin. Jack Ruby wasn’t there at that time?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. You say you stood in front of the television?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, we stood and watched the television.

Mr. Griffin. Was it possible to sit in Jack’s office and watch television?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you stand there?

Mr. Crafard. Just a couple of minutes.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you sit, and where was the television set?

Mr. Crafard. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall.

Mr. Griffin. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television set?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the television set?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Was there a telephone in that office?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How far away, how many extensions were there to the telephone?

Mr. Crafard. There was three of them altogether.

Mr. Griffin. There were three extensions or was there a telephone——

Mr. Crafard. The telephone and two extensions.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Where were the two extensions in relation to the telephone in Jack’s office?

Mr. Crafard. There was one by the bar and one by the door.

Mr. Griffin. How far away would that be from Jack’s office, each of those?

Mr. Crafard. The first one, the one by the door would probably be 20, maybe 20, 25 feet from the office. The other one would be maybe about 10 feet further, between 30 and 35 feet, I would say.

Mr. Griffin. You and Andy placed yourselves in front of that television set?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What do you recall happening, what was the first thing, do you have any recollection of what you saw on television, how things transpired on television?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. I believe they were at the hospital.

Mr. Griffin. Pardon?

Mr. Crafard. I believe they were at the hospital when we turned the television on.

Mr. Griffin. You recall seeing some scenes at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I can recall seeing some scenes but I am not sure whether it was as soon as we turned the television on or afterwards during that day.

Mr. Griffin. What do you recall seeing on television before Jack Ruby came into the club?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t really recall what we saw on television.

Mr. Griffin. While you were, between the time you turned that television set on and sat down and watched it and Jack came in, did you leave the office, did you do other duties in the club, or just watch TV?

Mr. Crafard. We just watched television.

Mr. Griffin. All right. When Jack came in, were you people seated in his office?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.

Mr. Griffin. When Jack arrived, did you go out into the outer part of the club to talk with Jack, or did you remain in the office?

Mr. Crafard. We went out by the front door.

Mr. Griffin. Why was that?

Mr. Crafard. More room for all of us to sit down who was in the office.

Mr. Griffin. Could you watch television from the front door?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you keep abreast of the news while you were out there by the front door?

Mr. Crafard. Andy had his transistor radio on.

Mr. Griffin. How long would you say it was between the time that you and Andy sat there and watched television before Jack came in?

Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t really say.

Mr. Griffin. Was there a clock in Jack’s office?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall ever looking at that clock while you were watching television?

Mr. Crafard. No; the clock wasn’t—It was one you had to wind, and it wasn’t wound half the time. We didn’t pay any attention to it.

Mr. Griffin. Do you ordinarily wear a watch?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t, there.

Mr. Griffin. In the period before Jack Ruby came in, did you get a meal of any sort, any food?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you and Andy discuss the events on television as you sat and watched it?

Mr. Crafard. I imagine we did. I don’t recall saying anything.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did anybody come into the club before Jack arrived?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any of the female employees of the club arriving at the club on the day, on the 22d?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. Would you think specifically about Tammi True, do you recall if she came?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you say you don’t recall, that is not the same as saying that she didn’t come in?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would you, that she didn’t come in?

Mr. Crafard. I would not make that statement.

Mr. Griffin. How about as to any of the other girls—Joy Dale, for example?

Mr. Crafard. I wouldn’t make the statement of the fact that none of them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them came into the club, but I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5, 10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.

Mr. Griffin. And you don’t recall anybody coming in and staying as long as 10 minutes?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones?

Mr. Crafard. We was right beside the telephone.

Mr. Griffin. Was that the one near the door?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one at the bar?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation?

Mr. Crafard. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we could hear, but we was talking.

Mr. Griffin. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long pauses in the conversation?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. We might have stopped, we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time; I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember. It seems to me he was there probably a couple of hours.

Mr. Griffin. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the club?

Mr. Crafard. He might have been; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his office and watch television?

Mr. Crafard. I believe we did; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with Jack in his office watching television?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his office to watch television?

Mr. Crafard. No. It seems to me like it wasn’t very long after he came before we went back into the office.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about the dog that you were going to send to California?

Mr. Crafard. Not on that day, no.

Mr. Griffin. If you had talked about that, would you remember it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I would have, I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn’t that a fair statement?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when that shock hit you.

Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you admitted it was a shock.

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who told it to you, or was anybody else present?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is very vague in my mind.

Mr. Hubert. What is your best guess—that Andy Armstrong told you?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can’t you help us a bit more as to who actually told you?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I can’t. I have thought about it. I can’t recall exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was before I left Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us it had to be Armstrong?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this morning, Larry. I don’t want you to feel bound by what you said at another time unless it was the truth.

Mr. Crafard. I realize that.

Mr. Hubert. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted out of it.

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. That is not true?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; that is not true.

Mr. Hubert. You say that is not true even if it is possible that Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. Crafard. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious thought. It wasn’t conscious to where I would remember it. It would have been a subconscious thought that it was the case.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t understand you when you say it was a subconscious thought.

Mr. Crafard. Just that. It wouldn’t have been something that I thought about for any period of time. It would have been something that I had heard it and it just, I didn’t even think about it, and then subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on a conscious level I will say no.

Mr. Hubert. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Had it been Armstrong wouldn’t you have asked him, “Well, how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see him? Who was he with?” You would have asked those questions, wouldn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. I would have asked him how he knew for sure.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t recall asking the person who told you that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall; no.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had shot Oswald, wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about Ruby being involved with him.

Mr. Hubert. That is correct. But you didn’t find out about Ruby being involved until Monday morning.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are concerned?

Mr. Crafard. That is right, if I wasn’t in Dallas. I believe that I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.

Mr. Hubert. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other things, it had to be Armstrong.

Mr. Crafard. That is right. That is all I can—I can’t say for sure who it was, and I can’t even say for sure that I heard the statement before I left Dallas. But I believe that it was.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think about this statement?

Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives in Michigan about it?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby’s performers or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do you think you would have remembered that kind of information being conveyed to you?

Mr. Crafard. I might have remembered something about the fact that one of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had been there; but I wouldn’t necessarily remember who it was who had said it.

Mr. Griffin. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby’s entertainers claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been?

Mr. Crafard. It would have been that——

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t know which entertainer it was or employee who said that?

Mr. Crafard. I wouldn’t really know whether it was true or not. I probably would state the fact that I had never saw him there personally that I knew of.

Mr. Hubert. Let me get through with this and see if this won’t help you out.

If you had heard this statement that Oswald had been in the Carousel, before you knew that Ruby had shot him, that would have had one reaction on you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, that the man happened to be in the club.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. If you had heard it after you knew Ruby had shot Oswald, I suggest to you that that would have been an entirely different reaction, because then it ties in Ruby and the club. Now doesn’t that assist you by determining what your reaction was when you heard it, whether it was the first type of reaction or the second type of reaction, or do you agree with me that your reaction would have been different depending upon when you heard it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it would have been; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you accept my version that there would be two different types along the lines I have said?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe there would have been.

Mr. Hubert. What was your reaction, the first or the second?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t really remember.

Mr. Griffin. Larry, when you talked with the FBI on Thanksgiving Day——

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. I believe the FBI asked you did you know any connection between Ruby and Oswald.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And I believe your answer at that time was that you did not.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When you talked with the FBI were you being as frank and straight-forward with them as you are with us right now?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; as much as I—to the best of my knowledge I told them nothing but the truth the same as I am doing with you gentlemen.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention to them that you then knew that someone had told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe I did because I—I don’t believe I did. I didn’t recall it.

Mr. Hubert. Are you stating to us that you would not have recalled a statement made to you about Oswald being in the club, which statement had, by any hypothesis, already been made to you, when they asked you if you knew of any connection between them?

Mr. Crafard. The thing is that if I remembered it, I would have said so, told, said something to them. If I didn’t say anything to them, I didn’t remember the fact.

Mr. Hubert. They asked you if you knew of any connection between them, didn’t they?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe they did.

Mr. Hubert. And you then knew that someone had told you he had been in the club?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe they did.

Mr. Hubert. Why didn’t you tell them that you knew that?

Mr. Crafard. I evidently didn’t remember it.

Mr. Hubert. But you have already stated that this thing made a great impression upon you.

Mr. Crafard. I know that, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Larry—— Mr. Hubert. Let me follow this through a bit. Didn’t they, in fact, ask you if you had heard the rumor that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know exactly how he asked me about it, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t he ask you, in fact, if you had ever seen him in the club?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he asked me that question; yes. I believe he might have. My answer would have been——

Mr. Hubert. Is your statement to us if he asked you that question it would not have recalled to your memory that someone had told you that he had been in the club?

Mr. Crafard. My statement is that it did not at that time.