TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of George Senator beginning at 9:45 a.m.

Mr. Senator, my name is Leon Hubert and this is Mr. Burt Griffin. We are both members of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have both been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Senator.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Senator, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby.

Now, Mr. Senator, I think you have appeared today by virtue of written request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you receive that letter?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is the date of it?

Mr. Senator. April 16, 1964.

Mr. Hubert. When did you receive it?

Mr. Senator. I received it Saturday. I don’t know what date it was. What was the date Saturday?

Mr. Hubert. Saturday would have been the 18th.

Now, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this notice, and I ask you now whether you do waive the notice in the event that you did not get the full 3 days.

Mr. Senator. We will continue.

Mr. Hubert. I understand by your answer that you say that you do waive it.

Mr. Senator. I waive it.

Mr. Hubert. All right, Mr. Senator. Will you rise now and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Senator. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Now will you state your full name?

Mr. Senator. George Senator.

Mr. Hubert. How old are you, Mr. Senator?

Mr. Senator. Fifty years old. I was born in Gloversville, N.Y.

Mr. Hubert. And when?

Mr. Senator. September 4, 1913.

Mr. Hubert. What is your present address, that is residence?

Mr. Senator. Right now?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. 2255 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N.Y.

Mr. Hubert. Is that your permanent residence?

Mr. Senator. No; I mean I just come up, you know, I just came to New York about 2½ weeks ago and am staying with my sister temporarily.

Mr. Hubert. Do you propose to go to another place, to move to another place?

Mr. Senator. Eventually I will, yes; in New York, but momentarily I do not know where.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you are staying at your sister’s home temporarily?

Mr. Senator. Temporarily.

Mr. Hubert. But your purpose is to live in New York?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you will, when you find an apartment, some other place to live, move out from your sister’s house?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I wonder if you would go over briefly in your own words the facts of your life, particularly where you lived, and your occupation, beginning actually with your education.

Mr. Senator. My education was up to the eighth grade.

Mr. Hubert. And where was that?

Mr. Senator. Gloversville, N.Y.

Mr. Hubert. Then after you finished the eighth grade, what did you do?

Mr. Senator. I moved to New York and went to work.

Mr. Hubert. You mean New York City?

Mr. Senator. Yes; New York City. I lived with my sister, too. I mean I moved in with my sister at that time.

Mr. Hubert. That is the same sister you are now living with?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is her name, by the way?

Mr. Senator. Freda Weisberg, Mrs. A. J. Weisberg.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live with her?

Mr. Senator. Originally, let me say approximately about 3 years. I went back and forth actually from New York back to home. Of course, I was only in my teens then.

Mr. Hubert. What sort of work did you do?

Mr. Senator. In New York I was working in a silk house, I was working for a wholesaler where we delivered silk to the dress manufacturer.

Mr. Hubert. And you continued in that occupation——

Mr. Senator. Just in my young teens.

Mr. Hubert. Until you were how old?

Mr. Senator. Possibly about 18, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. You were living with your sister as you said?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, at age 18, did your life take a change by way of occupation and residence?

Mr. Senator. Well, I got sick a couple of times so every time I got sick I went home to mother. I went back home. Of course, the distance, was about 190 miles from my home town to New York City. At one time I had pleurisy, went back home and stayed a year. Another time I had peritonitis. I went back home again.

Mr. Hubert. This was after age 18 or before?

Mr. Senator. No; this is now after 18.

Mr. Hubert. Then I take it that after age 18 and for a period of 1 or 2 years you were not working because of illness and you were staying mostly with your mother at home?

Mr. Senator. Yes; well, my brother had a restaurant, or rather, still does. He has a restaurant. I used to help him up there.

Mr. Hubert. Where? What place was that?

Mr. Senator. Gloversville, N.Y. He had a restaurant by his name, by his last name.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you work with him?

Mr. Senator. On and off, this is a rough guess, it has been so many years. I would probably say maybe a couple of years, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. At which time you lived with your mother?

Mr. Senator. Yes, I lived home.

Mr. Hubert. Would that take us then in your life to about age 22?

Mr. Senator. I would say around there, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then what happened after those days of your life?

Mr. Senator. Then I went back. I can’t quote you the exact years, but I went back to New York.

Mr. Hubert. City, you mean?

Mr. Senator. New York City, and I went to work for a—I was jerking sodas in the early thirties. That is when I was in my twenties yet then.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live during that period?

Mr. Senator. I was still home with my sister. I went back. I shuttled either from my sister to my mother.

Mr. Hubert. You did not have any residence of your own?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Where did she live during that period?

Mr. Senator. My sister? She lived in the Bronx, still does.

Mr. Hubert. I mean the same address?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the address, or were there several? I am talking now about this other period, you see, that is to say when you——

Mr. Senator. I can think of the streets but I probably could not think of the numbers.

Mr. Hubert. Well, that is all right. Give us the streets.

Mr. Senator. All right. When I originally came to New York it was on Davidson Avenue in the Bronx.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been when you were about 12 years old?

Mr. Senator. No, no. I first came to New York when I was 15.

Mr. Hubert. Where did she live then?

Mr. Senator. On Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. Then from Davidson I think I moved to Walton Avenue. These are all close by, these streets, you know. I would probably say a distance of maybe 4, 5, or 6 blocks, something of that nature. Then I lived there—I am trying to think now. I have to jump back a lot of years and can’t think of these outright.

Mr. Hubert. We understand that and we understand therefore that your answers must be approximations.

Mr. Senator. Yes, they are approximations. When I got this job jerking sodas there, now I’m in my twenties already. Of course, this is in the 1930 years. I was approximately around 25 when I was working in the Bronx jerking sodas and still living with my sister.

Mr. Hubert. That was around 1938, I take it?

Mr. Senator. Yes, and 1939; 1938 and 1939.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the place at which you worked?

Mr. Senator. Yes, sure, J. S. Krums, chocolatiers. That is on the Grand Concourse.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say I may have been there around 2 years. Now this is roughly guessing. Then the place went out on strike and I went out of a job. Then from there, two other fellows who were employed with us, we all went down to Florida. We went down to Florida for the winter and got a job there for $14 a week and stayed all winter, then we come back again.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work were you doing and who was your employer?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Or employers?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t remember. It was a cafeteria with a soda fountain and I worked at the soda fountain. It has been so many, many years.

Mr. Hubert. Who were the other two people that you went with?

Mr. Senator. One fellow, his name was Ike Heilberun, and the other is—I can’t remember his name.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen either of those two people in the last 10 or 20 years?

Mr. Senator. I would say—no, one I haven’t seen in many, many years. As a matter of fact, I think even before the war.

Mr. Hubert. Which one, the one whose name you don’t remember?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And the other one?

Mr. Senator. The other I think the last time I saw him must have been maybe around 6 years or 7 years ago. He is down in Florida.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work is he doing?

Mr. Senator. He is in the stationery business, if he still is, I mean. He was.

Mr. Hubert. And you met him in connection with work or socially or how, that is 6 years ago?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; it happened to be I went down there. I went down there for a vacation there.

Mr. Hubert. And you looked him up?

Mr. Senator. And I looked him up and I found him and when I found him he was in the stationery end.

Mr. Hubert. How extended was your visit with him then?

Mr. Senator. Oh, just casual. I would probably say maybe I saw him two or three times.

Mr. Hubert. No business relations?

Mr. Senator. No, no; no business relations whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s go back now and pick up the time when you came back from Florida. I say “came back.” I assume you went back to New York.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I went back to New York.

Mr. Hubert. And tell us again——

Mr. Senator. I do not remember if I stayed in New York or went back home now, because I would say on and off I had worked for my brother at various times.

Mr. Hubert. Your brother?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Senator. Jake Senator. Senator’s Restaurant in Gloversville, N.Y. I worked on and off at his place many times.

Mr. Hubert. How far have you progressed in your own mind as to this chronicle of your life? We are up to what year now that you were working for your brother?

Mr. Senator. At the time I enlisted. In other words, when the war broke out I enlisted down at Albany, N.Y., at the Federal Building in Albany, N.Y. That was in August of 1941, I believe. I think it was August 20 or August 21, 1941, and I was with my brother at the time when I enlisted.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember working for the Admiral Hotel in Miami Beach and the Times Square Cafeteria?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is it. That is the place, the Times Square Cafeteria.

Mr. Hubert. And David and Elizabeth Rosner at the Astor Hotel?

Mr. Senator. It could be possible. I just don’t remember. It could be possible.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you were in Miami and worked for several people whose names I have mentioned during the winter of 1939–40 and until about the end of the season in Miami Beach, I take it?

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. When did you enlist?

Mr. Senator. I enlisted August 20 or 21 of 1941.

Mr. Hubert. That was before Pearl Harbor then?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall what you did or where you lived from the summer of 1940?

Mr. Senator. What is that?

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall what occupation you had or where you lived from the summer of 1940 when you returned from Miami to New York until you entered into the service in August of 1941?

Mr. Senator. I believe I was back home with my brother.

Mr. Hubert. That is working for him?

Mr. Senator. The restaurant, yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay in the service?

Mr. Senator. I’ll have to read it, or I’ll let you read it.

Mr. Hubert. No: that is all right. You served for the duration of the war, I suppose? You hand me now a little document which is a laminated copy.

Mr. Senator. The reason I handed you that is because I lost my original and I am happy that I have got that.

Mr. Hubert. You were honorably discharged from the Army of the United States on September 9, 1945, given to you at the Separation Center, Fort Dix, N.J? This reflects also that you were a staff sergeant.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That your serial number was 12006042, and that at the time of your discharge you were with the 101st Bomber Fortress Squadron?

Mr. Senator. Yes; when I came out.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Then after you left the service in September of 1945, where did you go and what did you do?

Mr. Senator. When I came back out of the service, this fellow Ike Heilberun, who I mentioned living down there, we went into the luncheonette business and lasted approximately about a year and lost our shirts.

Mr. Hubert. What was the name of that? Is that the outfit called the Denise Foods, Inc.?

Mr. Senator. Where is that located? Do you have the location on that?

Mr. Hubert. 254 West 35th Street.

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t remember the name. I remember the street. That is why I asked you.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, that was a corporation formed by you and this man you talked about?

Mr. Senator. Yes. We bought somebody out, that is right.

Mr. Hubert. And you were occupied with that endeavor through most of 1946?

Mr. Senator. I would say approximately about that to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. And where did you live then?

Mr. Senator. I was living—of course, I can’t remember if I got married before that or after that.

Mr. Hubert. But sometime along in there after you left the service, you got married?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I believe I got married in January 1946, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. Hubert. What was the name of the lady you married?

Mr. Senator. Sherley Baren.

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell that?

Mr. Senator. B-a-r-e-n.

Mr. Hubert. Are you still married to her?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Are you divorced?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When? Approximately.

Mr. Senator. Approximately about 7 years.

Mr. Hubert. Ago?

Mr. Senator. Approximately, I’m not sure of the date. I’d say approximately about that.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you lived together as man and wife approximately for 10 years?

Mr. Senator. No, no.

Mr. Hubert. Seven years ago would be 1957. You said that you married her in January of 1946. Maybe you did not live together that long. Maybe the divorce came after you had physically separated.

Mr. Senator. Yes. Actually, we had been separated I would probably say around 3 years, I think. I think it must have been around 3 years.

Mr. Hubert. Before the divorce?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I think that is it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any children of that marriage?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I have one son 16 years old.

Mr. Hubert. He is now 16 years old?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Senator. Bobby.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you divorced?

Mr. Senator. Through the mail. She was in Miami and I was in Texas.

Mr. Hubert. But where were the divorce proceedings actually instituted?

Mr. Senator. In Miami.

Mr. Hubert. She brought the divorce suit?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Has she remarried?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know to whom?

Mr. Senator. His name is Milton Wechsler. I am not sure of the spelling of it. I think it is W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r. I think that is how you spell it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where they live?

Mr. Senator. Coral Gables.

Mr. Hubert. Now would you tell us of your occupation and residences after your marriage, say from January 1946 forward?

Mr. Senator. After I went out of business, after my partner and I went out of business, I moved down to Miami and I had two or three odd jobs there.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Senator. At these jobs, do you mean?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Senator. Or Miami?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I stayed in Miami, I would say, around 7 or 8 years. As a rough guess, something like that, offhand.

Mr. Hubert. You had a number of jobs during the first year that you got there; is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work did you do?

Mr. Senator. Restaurant-type work.

Mr. Hubert. I notice that your social security records indicate that you either had no earnings or at least that none were reported for the second half of 1947 and the first half of 1948, approximately a year. Can you explain that?

Mr. Senator. 1947 and 1948?

Mr. Hubert. In other words, for the third and fourth quarters from a social security point of view of 1947 and the first and second quarters——

Mr. Senator. Of 1948?

Mr. Hubert. Of 1948, so it would be roughly from July 1947 to June of 1948 there were no earnings reported.

Mr. Senator. 1947 and 1948?

Mr. Hubert. After which—this may assist your memory—for the third quarter of 1948, that is say from July on, you report having worked at the Lake Carrolton Club Grill in Pike. N.H.

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. So, perhaps if you remember working in New Hampshire, you can back off and tell us what happened in that year when there were no earnings reported. This may assist you too. The social security records show that in the first quarter of 1947, that would have been January, February, and March, you apparently worked for the T-A Hensroost.

Mr. Senator. I believe that was the first job I had when I got down in Miami, if I am not mistaken. I think that was the first job I got. That was an open stand on the oceanfront.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember that you worked there actually for the first 6 months?

Mr. Senator. At the Hensroost?

Mr. Hubert. Of 1947.

Mr. Senator. At Hensroost? I can’t quote how long I worked there, but I know that I worked there.

Mr. Hubert. Now then, perhaps we can reconstruct the thing, because you apparently left there at the Hensroost in midsummer of 1947, and then you pick up in midsummer of 1948 in New Hampshire, and it is the intervening year that I would like to have you cover.

Mr. Senator. Wait a minute. Oh, then I think after that, yes, I was out of a job for a while and I don’t recall how long. Then I got a job in another little luncheonette for a while and I don’t know how long that was.

Mr. Hubert. It may be that you did not have enough earnings to require reporting them, you see. What I am trying to do is assist your memory. Do you recall leaving Miami Beach to go to New Hampshire?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure; I remember going. I don’t remember what year, but I remember going, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what time of the year, whatever year it was?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I went there for one summer.

Mr. Hubert. For the season?

Mr. Senator. The season; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Your wife went with you?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. She stayed in Miami?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When you finished the season there, what happened?

Mr. Senator. Well, I come back and I was—I’m trying to think. What year was that, 1940-what?

Mr. Hubert. It was the last half of 1948. Perhaps I can assist your memory too by pointing out that your social security records indicate that you worked for T-A Troops.

Mr. Senator. Yes, that is the place I was trying to mention to you but I couldn’t think of it. Now I don’t remember if I worked for that place after I come back or before. That is the thing I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. You worked for that place quite a length of time, I believe.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long? Do you remember?

Mr. Senator. Gee, I don’t remember how long I worked there.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live when you were working for Troops?

Mr. Senator. Northwest Fourth Terrace.

Mr. Hubert. Miami Beach?

Mr. Senator. No; Miami.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, the restaurant was in Miami Beach?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. On Collins Avenue?

Mr. Senator. That is right; yes.

Mr. Hubert. You lived in Miami City itself?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Were you living with your wife then?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall what your next move was?

Mr. Senator. I believe my next move is I got a job selling. I was broken in selling women’s apparel, if I recall right.

Mr. Hubert. Women’s apparel?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Before we leave the Miami Beach situation, what was the cause of your leaving Miami Beach and the Miami area, because apparently you did?

Mr. Senator. You mean when I went to Texas?

Mr. Hubert. No, when you left Miami you did not go directly to Texas, did you?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Hubert. You did?

Mr. Senator. Sure. Come this May 15, and I think I am pretty well on the date, I have been in Texas 10 years.

Mr. Hubert. So you moved to Texas in 1954?

Mr. Senator. May of 1954.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember working for the Rhea Manufacturing Co.?

Mr. Senator. Yes; out of Milwaukee, Wis. That was my start. Is that in the year of 1950, something like that? I don’t remember, 1949, 1948?

Mr. Hubert. The social security records indicate 1951.

Mr. Senator. Is that what it is? I just don’t remember. It could be 1951.

Mr. Hubert. You were working for Rhea Manufacturing Co., and the records also show that you worked for Smoler Bros., Inc., in Chicago.

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. The Rhea Manufacturing Co. was in Milwaukee, Wis. Did you live in Milwaukee?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. And in Chicago?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. In other words——

Mr. Senator. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when they called the people in for sales meetings.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you living then?

Mr. Senator. In Miami.

Mr. Hubert. That same residence?

Mr. Senator. Northwest Fourth Terrace?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was your area, sales area?

Mr. Senator. Florida.

Mr. Hubert. Just Florida?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You sold women’s apparel?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Wholesale?

Mr. Senator. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers.

Mr. Hubert. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley’s, whose address is given as 144 East Flagler in Miami.

Mr. Senator. Hartley’s is a large—it almost looks like a department store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop.

Mr. Hubert. Were you working for both?

Mr. Senator. The only time I worked for Hartley’s was, I think it was either one or two seasons. I don’t remember which. Just for the Christmas holidays only.

Mr. Hubert. When you did work for Hartley’s, did you leave Smoler’s?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, Smoler’s continued right on?

Mr. Senator. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. These records also indicate that actually you worked for Smoler’s out of Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Yes. Smoler’s is the one who forced me to Texas.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that.

Mr. Senator. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex., and it happened to be I was in Atlanta, Ga., and it happened to be on a Friday, I recall this very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn’t imagine what he was calling me for. He said, “George, we are releasing a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas.” And I didn’t want to go. But he said, “You are going.” So I wound up in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you remember the year, the month?

Mr. Senator. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago.

Mr. Hubert. 1954?

Mr. Senator. Because I have been there—come next month, it will be 10 years I have been there.

Mr. Hubert. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in May of 1954, on a Friday?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Actually, May 15, I think you said.

Mr. Senator. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15.

Mr. Hubert. Did your wife go with you?

Mr. Senator. No; she wouldn’t go.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been living together up to that time?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was that the cause of your separation?

Mr. Senator. I believe that is.

Mr. Hubert. She never did go to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No; she wouldn’t go, and I had a job to hold down.

Mr. Hubert. She kept the child?

Mr. Senator. She kept the child.

Mr. Hubert. And still has it?

Mr. Senator. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been a possibility if I didn’t go—I only say possibility—that I could have been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a possibility.

Mr. Hubert. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to work, I take it, for Smoler’s?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various places where you lived?

Mr. Senator. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels, from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the State of Texas.

Mr. Hubert. What was your territory there?

Mr. Senator. Texas.

Mr. Hubert. The whole of Texas?

Mr. Senator. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with that there I said this is not for me, because I can’t make it on only part of Texas.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, that comes a little later.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your various addresses just roughly.

Mr. Senator. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I don’t remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the street.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Senator. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can’t think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I would probably say, I’d have to guess, I would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I’m not sure now.

Mr. Hubert. Was it an apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes; it was an apartment.

Mr. Hubert. Were you alone?

Mr. Senator. No; I was with a couple other boys.

Mr. Hubert. Who were they?

Mr. Senator. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician.

Mr. Hubert. He played the instrument called the xylophone?

Mr. Senator. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What is the one that is made out of wood?

Mr. Hubert. Marimba?

Mr. Senator. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood?

Mr. Hubert. As a musical instrument?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. A percussion instrument?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he work?

Mr. Senator. He played wherever he got engagements. He got booked locally, out of town.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the other one?

Mr. Senator. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name was Mort Seder.

Mr. Hubert. What did he do?

Mr. Senator. He sells men’s apparel, traveling salesman.

Mr. Hubert. Have you maintained contact with either of those?

Mr. Senator. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale by the sea.

Mr. Hubert. What about the other one?

Mr. Senator. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would probably say in the last 2 months.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him often prior to that?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you lived together initially?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And then lived together after that?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I’m trying to figure how we broke up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place. He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he couldn’t stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that time. So we lived together.

Mr. Hubert. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that place?

Mr. Senator. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time.

Mr. Hubert. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence at the McKinney Street address.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that broke up?

Mr. Senator. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to another place.

Mr. Hubert. Where was that?

Mr. Senator. That was on Shadyside Lane.

Mr. Hubert. And how long did you live there?

Mr. Senator. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a year, with a guess again, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. That is you and Seder?

Mr. Senator. Yes; Seder.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go from there?

Mr. Senator. Columbia Avenue.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a couple of years. I’m not sure now.

Mr. Hubert. You were still with Seder then?

Mr. Senator. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place.

Mr. Hubert. So he left you, as it were?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address?

Mr. Senator. I remained there for a while.

Mr. Hubert. And then what happened?

Mr. Senator. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I’m trying to figure where I went from there.

Mr. Hubert. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether you then——

Mr. Senator. I stayed there for a while.

Mr. Hubert. You stayed there for a while alone?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I had my own place.

Mr. Hubert. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or were you alone?

Mr. Senator. No; I moved in with somebody else. I’m trying to think where, though.

Mr. Hubert. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived with?

Mr. Senator. I think I moved to the Oasis.

Mr. Hubert. Is that an apartment house?

Mr. Senator. Yes; these are all apartment houses—the various places. They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe that is where I moved next.

Mr. Hubert. Whom did you share that apartment with?

Mr. Senator. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and Kenny—I can’t think of his last name.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there?

Mr. Senator. Pardon me?

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there?

Mr. Senator. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can’t think of what year. Do you have a listing of it?

Mr. Hubert. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler’s, or rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler’s after July of 1958.

Mr. Senator. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when I got through with Smoler’s, in 1958. I don’t remember when I was with Smoler’s that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have been living there yet. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last place was at the Oasis.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live?

Mr. Senator. Where I moved to?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. From the Oasis I think, I’m not sure now but I think from the Oasis, I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all over, if I recall right.

Mr. Hubert. Were you working with Smoler’s then?

Mr. Senator. No; I’m not sure I went from the Oasis. I don’t remember if I——

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see if this will assist your memory. The social security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of 1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what you were doing and where you were living for those 3½ years, starting from July of 1958 until apparently——

Mr. Senator. July of 1958?

Mr. Hubert. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas. That is 3½ years there and I would like to know just what you were doing and where you were living?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t know if I can put them all together right.

Mr. Hubert. Do the best you can.

Mr. Senator. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don’t remember if I was still with Smoler’s then.

Mr. Hubert. In any case you moved to the Oasis?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I moved to the Oasis.

Mr. Hubert. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler’s whenever it was, you got on the road.

Mr. Senator. Wait; after I left Smoler’s, I had a couple of odd jobs traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds, and then I finally got back with Rhea again.

Mr. Hubert. R-h-e-a?

Mr. Senator. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing.

Mr. Hubert. Milwaukee?

Mr. Senator. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don’t remember what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I was unemployed.

Mr. Hubert. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying normal expenses?

Mr. Senator. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them.

Mr. Hubert. Were you living in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Hubert. All that period?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the 3½ years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling?

Mr. Senator. January of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s get this part settled. From the time you left Smoler’s, you were definitely living in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent nature other than in Dallas any place else?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. So that even though you were traveling during those years, doing odd jobs or for Rhea’s, you always lived in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that.

Mr. Hubert. How long ago?

Mr. Senator. But actually, that still wasn’t a permanent residence because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I used to help him.

Mr. Hubert. Who is he?

Mr. Senator. His name is George Hamrah.

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell it?

Mr. Senator. H-a-m-r-a-h.

Mr. Hubert. He still lives in Houston?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he still lives in Houston.

Mr. Hubert. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you always lived in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the Oasis on?

Mr. Senator. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I went to Jack Ruby’s, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack.

Wait, I’ll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or March, I’m not sure now, of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval.

Mr. Senator. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes, I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed.

Mr. Hubert. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers in the Oasis.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with at the Oasis.

Mr. Senator. I gave you the names——

Mr. Hubert. Of two of them, as I recall.

Mr. Senator. Of one apartment.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Right. Then another apartment I lived in, the fellow, his name was Frank Irwin.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead.

Mr. Senator. The other one was James Young, and the other one was—this is all in one apartment. I can’t think of the other one’s name.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen them in the last few years?

Mr. Senator. Oh, the last time I saw any of them was around the latter part of last year.

Mr. Hubert. Even the man whose name you don’t know?

Mr. Senator. Even the man whose name I don’t know. I’m trying to think of his name. I shouldn’t forget it. I think it is John.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps it will come to you in a minute. We will come back to it.

Mr. Senator. I shouldn’t forget his name as long as I’ve known him. I just can’t put my finger——

Mr. Hubert. But you lived with those people at the Oasis?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. At various apartments?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Until January or February of 1962 when you moved in with Jack Ruby; is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where was Ruby living then?

Mr. Senator. Ruby was living at the Marsalla—

Mr. Hubert. Palace?

Mr. Senator. There is a bunch of apartments there.

Mr. Hubert. Marsalla South?

Mr. Senator. It may have been Marsalla South.

Mr. Hubert. There is actually a Marsalis Street; is there not?

Mr. Senator. Yes; but there is an apartment, a few begin with Marsalla, Marsalla Apartments or Marsalla South. This one here was on Marsalla on the street.

Mr. Hubert. It was on Marsalis Street?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live with Jack then?

Mr. Senator. At that time I stayed, I lived with him approximately 5 to 6 months; something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Anybody else live there with you?

Mr. Senator. No; just Jack and myself.

Mr. Hubert. What was the occasion for your leaving him?

Mr. Senator. I left him because I had a chance to go into the postcard business.

Mr. Hubert. How does that relate to leaving Jack? You still lived in Dallas; did you not?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure. I never left Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live after you left Ruby?

Mr. Senator. After I left who?

Mr. Hubert. Ruby. Now, incidentally, I judge from the dates that that would have been around in September.

Mr. Senator. August.

Mr. Hubert. August of 1962?

Mr. Senator. Yes; August.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go then?

Mr. Senator. I moved in with a fellow whose name was Stan Corbat.

Mr. Hubert. And where was that apartment?

Mr. Senator. That was on Maple Avenue.

Mr. Hubert. You say that the reason why you moved from Jack’s was because you got a chance to be a salesman in the postcard business?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How does that relate, how does your getting this employment relate to your moving from Jack’s apartment?

Mr. Senator. Jack likes to live alone in the overall picture. First of all, it is an interference of the time that I wake up and the time that he goes to bed which don’t coincide. That is part. And then Jack don’t live too clean. I mean he is a type—in other words, he comes home, he is reading a newspaper, on the floor, if he is in the bathroom the newspaper goes on the floor and things of that nature. Though he was very clean about himself, he wasn’t clean around the apartment.

Mr. Hubert. I judge from what you tell me then that your real reasons for moving were those that you just mentioned rather than the fact that you got employment selling postcards? Is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Why I moved?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Please run that back again.

Mr. Hubert. I say I judge from what you have said that the real reason for your moving from the apartment with Jack in 1962 was your dissatisfaction with the living conditions rather than that you got a job selling postcards?

Mr. Senator. No; not necessarily. I mean that is part of it. That is not necessarily it; no.

Mr. Hubert. How does the postcard job, selling postcards, contribute or how did it contribute to the fact that you had to move from Jack?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I didn’t have to. I didn’t have to; but this way here I started to get self-sustaining a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see. So you had a steady job?

Mr. Senator. Yes; see, the other way, when I was living with Jack, of course, I was helping him at the club. I was helping him at the club, and, of course, I abided by everything he said and did.

Mr. Hubert. So the reasons for moving then, were a combination of factors. One, that you were dissatisfied generally with the living conditions as you have indicated?

Mr. Senator. That is only partially it. I had a chance to go out.

Mr. Hubert. And you were financially better off and you had a chance to go with Corbat, and you did?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And how long did you stay with Corbat?

Mr. Senator. When I went in with Corbat, of course, he only had a one-bedroom apartment and I had to sleep on the couch again. I slept on so many couches lately. So I told Stan, I told this friend of mine, Corbat, when we were staying on Maple Avenue, that just as soon as I get a little extra money I want to get a two-bedroom apartment and that is where I moved into this last apartment, 225 South Ewing.

Mr. Hubert. That was about when?

Mr. Senator. I moved in there, I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962, we found a nice two-bedroom apartment that was very reasonable. I told Jack about it and Jack moved next door.

Mr. Hubert. But he moved later than you, didn’t he?

Mr. Senator. Well, see, I moved in first.

Mr. Hubert. With Corbat?

Mr. Senator. No. Yes; first I went in alone, no furniture or nothing. I moved in alone and I was there approximately about a week or something like that, and Corbat stayed over at the other place because he wanted to finish the balance of the month out. He wanted his last days in there, you know, for we paid for the rent, and then he moved in right after that.

Mr. Hubert. He moved in with you?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that was in November of 1962?

Mr. Senator. I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. When did Ruby move in?

Mr. Senator. He moved in around that same time.

Mr. Hubert. But after you?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I would probably say within the week I would probably say, something like that, within that week.

Mr. Hubert. And then you stayed there until when?

Mr. Senator. The unfateful day.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t live with Corbat all that while?

Mr. Senator. No; I lived with Corbat from the time we moved in there until August.

Mr. Hubert. Of 1963?

Mr. Senator. Yes; now, the reason Corbat moved out——

Mr. Hubert. Ruby had another apartment in the same building?

Mr. Senator. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August 8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn’t handle it alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle.

Mr. Hubert. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby’s apartment?

Mr. Senator. It was the first week in November of 1963.

Mr. Hubert. By the way, would you state for the record what was the number of the apartment you and Corbat had?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The apartment was Granberry. You mean on Maple Avenue?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Senator. Room number?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; on South Ewing.

Mr. Senator. 223 South Ewing.

Mr. Hubert. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat which was next door, you say, to Jack’s and what was Ruby’s number. I want to get that in the record.

Mr. Senator. I think Ruby’s was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall.

Mr. Hubert. They were next to one another, or opposite?

Mr. Senator. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment.

Mr. Hubert. And they are numbered in sequence?

Mr. Senator. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207, something like that. I think it was 206 and 207.

Mr. Hubert. Now, for a moment, let’s go back to Frank Irwin, who was one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately?

Mr. Senator. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a couple years.

Mr. Hubert. What was he doing when you last saw him?

Mr. Senator. What does he do?

Mr. Hubert. What was he doing then?

Mr. Senator. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter.

Mr. Hubert. What about James Young?

Mr. Senator. James Young works for a finance—I think it is a finance corporation called Warner.

Mr. Hubert. When did you last see him?

Mr. Senator. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City, and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. What time?

Mr. Senator. At night.

Mr. Hubert. No; what day?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. What time of the year, what month?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I think it was in December.

Mr. Hubert. Of 1963?

Mr. Senator. I think so, in December 1963.

Mr. Hubert. When had you seen him prior to that time?

Mr. Senator. Prior to that time? I don’t remember. It could have been a couple years, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a third man——

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Whose name you couldn’t remember at the time. Can you remember his name now?

Mr. Senator. Jack Loftus.

Mr. Hubert. L-o-f-t-u-s?

Mr. Senator. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in Hillsboro, if he is still there.

Mr. Hubert. What is his occupation?

Mr. Senator. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in Hillsboro.

Mr. Hubert. Texas?

Mr. Senator. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. When was the last time you saw him?

Mr. Senator. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don’t remember if it was after that or before that. I don’t remember that, but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This part I do remember.

Mr. Hubert. That was the same day you saw Young?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan?

Mr. Senator. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I’ll tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby’s club.

Mr. Hubert. That was after Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. They were looking for you for what reason?

Mr. Senator. Sir?

Mr. Hubert. For what reason were they looking? Why were they looking for you?

Mr. Senator. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them, you know, for a while. Nothing particular.

Mr. Hubert. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the apartment with Ruby.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, it was national news.

Mr. Senator. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident somehow.

Mr. Griffin. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw them?

Mr. Senator. These two boys?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I think it was in December now. I don’t remember if it was a week, two or three. I’m not sure. I just don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day?

Mr. Senator. It could be. I just can’t think of when it was. Possibly.

Mr. Hubert. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus?

Mr. Senator. Before?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since you had seen Loftus?

Mr. Senator. Let me put it this way: I can’t quote it. I really can’t quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving, Frank Irwin.

Mr. Hubert. What was the friend’s name?

Mr. Senator. Frank Irwin.

Mr. Hubert. I-r-w-i-n?

Mr. Senator. I-r-w-i-n, yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Senator. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend.

Mr. Hubert. Did he know Ruby?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he knew him casually.

Mr. Hubert. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if they knew Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. Did Stanley Corbat know him?

Mr. Senator. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him. But, of course, Stan never went to his club unless I took him there.

Mr. Hubert. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out of the apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where is he living now, in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know the number, but I think he is living on Munger Street.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Hubert. How did you come in contact with him, socially?

Mr. Senator. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across him once in a delicatessen.

Mr. Hubert. Just once?

Mr. Senator. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact, I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings.

Mr. Hubert. What does he do?

Mr. Senator. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women’s budget dresses.

Mr. Griffin. Which department store?

Mr. Senator. Titche.

Mr. Griffin. That is in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where is that located?

Mr. Senator. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main Street.

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself.

Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by way of charges?

Mr. Senator. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have been asked many times before on this already, that one night—this goes back maybe 3 or 4 years ago—there was another chap and I, we went to a cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were drunk. Now I wasn’t any more drunk than he was.

Mr. Hubert. Did they charge you?

Mr. Senator. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I had nothing to sober up with.

Mr. Hubert. Did they follow up with any charges?

Mr. Senator. No; we were fined $15.

Mr. Hubert. You were fined?

Mr. Senator. I believe it was $15.

Mr. Hubert. Is that the only time?

Mr. Senator. The only time in my life.

Mr. Hubert. The only time you have ever been arrested?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. There have been no other charges?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice?

Mr. Senator. Never.

Mr. Hubert. During the war?

Mr. Senator. Never, none whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers?

Mr. Senator. Professional?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to any gambling houses?

Mr. Senator. Me? No; of course I’m certain there must be sneak gambling you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don’t remember just what year it was. They just clamped down, you know.

Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that.

Mr. Hubert. Have you yourself ever done any gambling?

Mr. Senator. No; I’m no gambler. When you put it this way, I will put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or something like that?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Senator. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What other recreation did we have? So we gambled.

Mr. Hubert. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you obtained money to live during the 2½ years that you were apparently unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from July of 1958 until the first of 1962.

Mr. Senator. What years?

Mr. Hubert. According to the records, there were no earnings reported for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962.

Mr. Senator. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead.

Mr. Senator. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did.

When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don’t know how to explain this, I really don’t know how to explain it to you, I didn’t file. Why I didn’t file I can’t even answer, I don’t know why I didn’t file.

Mr. Hubert. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part.

You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler’s?

Mr. Senator. No; that was with Rhea.

Mr. Hubert. You were with Smoler’s a long time. What caused you to lose your job there?

Mr. Senator. With Smoler Brothers?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. As I say, they weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy with them.

First of all, I’ll tell you they had cut down the territory and they were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume house, and the type operation was, I don’t know if I classify, if I tell you $3.75 a dress, I don’t know if it means anything to you or not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they weren’t happy. And I wasn’t happy because they had cut my territory down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn’t making any money anyhow over that.

Mr. Hubert. Had you had times with Smoler’s when you had done considerably better?

Mr. Senator. There were times that I did better. I don’t say that I did a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward?

You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler’s, you go to Rhea’s——

Mr. Senator. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you know that were nothing to speak of.

Mr. Hubert. Here is what I want to get at.

Here is a period of 2½ years, you had to have some money to live on or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about that.

Mr. Senator. I lived on handouts.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about it.

Mr. Senator. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed, extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three, two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and they kept me for a while.

Mr. Hubert. You did not pay any part of the rent?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. And that is true for that whole 2½-year period?

Mr. Senator. It wasn’t two and a half. I would say it was approximately a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don’t think it was 2½ years.

Mr. Griffin. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly?

Mr. Senator. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly.

Mr. Griffin. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and Rhea?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think there was much time between them.

Mr. Griffin. What would you say, 3 months?

Mr. Senator. It’s hard for me to really guess. I’d have to make such a fantastic guess I wouldn’t know if I was right or wrong.

Mr. Griffin. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957.

Mr. Senator. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don’t know how close I’d be and if I told you 6 months I don’t know how far I’d be.

Mr. Griffin. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific?

Mr. Senator. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while, which didn’t last too long.

Mr. Griffin. Doing the same kind of work?

Mr. Senator. Yes, doing the same kind of work.

Mr. Griffin. Covering territory?

Mr. Senator. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn’t stay with them long and I wasn’t making any money with them.

Mr. Griffin. What company was that?

Mr. Senator. Junior Age. I don’t believe they are in business any more.

Mr. Griffin. How long would you say you were with them?

Mr. Senator. It may have been 3 months. I don’t know, 2 months, 4 months. I’m not sure. It wasn’t too long.

Mr. Griffin. Were you on a straight commission with them?

Mr. Senator. Yes. No, a draw against commission.

Mr. Griffin. A draw against commission?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. But if you didn’t make your draw, you were in the hole with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow?

Mr. Senator. I didn’t pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes.

Mr. Griffin. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for next?

Mr. Senator. I’m trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know I did some odd things. I was with Rhea——

Mr. Hubert. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you get into other lines?

Mr. Senator. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me going.

Mr. Griffin. Was that in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it?

Mr. Senator. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I worked for Rhea.

Mr. Hubert. How long did the Rhea employment last?

Mr. Senator. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half, I’m not sure now.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make any money off of that?

Mr. Senator. Just a draw part.

Mr. Hubert. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for Rhea, that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have enough money then to pay your fair share?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; I paid my fair share as long as I was——

Mr. Hubert. So when you are talking about the handouts——

Mr. Senator. The handouts is when I was completely out.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have any employment at all?

Mr. Senator. No, I was completely out.

Mr. Hubert. That was for about a year, year and a half?

Mr. Senator. I would say about a year and a half at a rough guess.

Mr. Hubert. When did that begin and when did that end, that year and a half? Let’s look at it this way: You were not working at the time you were living with Ruby, were you, that is to say you were not making any money?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. You were not contributing?

Mr. Senator. No. Ruby gave me handouts.

Mr. Hubert. That is right?

Mr. Senator. Certainly.

Mr. Hubert. So that is a year and a half back from November of 1963, is it not, roughly?

Mr. Senator. No, I was with this Volume Sales like you mentioned before.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I was with them. Now, I was with Volume for maybe about 9 months, I think.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s take the time that you were with Corbat. Was that on a handout basis too, or did you pay your fair share then?

Mr. Senator. No; with Corbat I paid him very little. I’ll tell you when I paid him very little, though. I paid him very little when I first moved in with him, because I had no money.

Mr. Hubert. And then you got——

Mr. Senator. Then when I moved, when I was able to a little, we went on a 50-50 basis.

Mr. Hubert. That is when you moved to South Ewing?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Which was in August of 1962?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you making money at that time?

Mr. Senator. The cards. My half of the rent was $62.50 a month and his half. In other words, it ran about $15 a week, approximately.

Mr. Hubert. And you earned enough to pay your half by selling postcards?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I was in the postcards.

Mr. Hubert. That is what business? What company is that?

Mr. Senator. Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you with them?

Mr. Senator. I was sales manager, whatever that means.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you with them?

Mr. Senator. August of 1962 until November of 1963.

Mr. Hubert. What part of November?

Mr. Senator. The latter part of November.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you ceased your employment with them after Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. Yes; this is when I fell apart with the incident.

Mr. Hubert. What were you making then?

Mr. Senator. $75 a week, but $61.45, that is my actual draw.

Mr. Hubert. That was your actual draw?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. In cash?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Roughly $250 a month?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I think you said you paid your half of the rent with Corbat?

Mr. Senator. Yes; $15 a week, $16 a week, or whatever it was.

Mr. Hubert. And then when you lost that employment—just a minute; you had not lost that employment at the time you moved in with Ruby, because you say that that employment——

Mr. Senator. No, no, no; you mean prior to——

Mr. Hubert. To the shooting.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You were still working with them?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you were still drawing that pay?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did you mean when you said a little while ago that you were on a handout basis with Ruby since you were making $250?

Mr. Senator. No; I am referring to the first time.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see.

Mr. Senator. That was in 1962.

Mr. Hubert. You were living in another place?

Mr. Senator. Yes; in 1962.

Mr. Hubert. But with reference to the last time you lived with Ruby; that is to say, commencing the beginning of November of 1963?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You were——

Mr. Senator. I was under pressure those 2 months because the rent—you know, when you switch from $62.50 to $125 you are going broke.

Mr. Hubert. From the time you left Corbat until you moved with Ruby——

Mr. Senator. I struggled for the 2 months, and Jack Ruby said to move in, so I moved in.

Mr. Hubert. And were you supposed to pay any part?

Mr. Senator. With Jack, no.

Mr. Hubert. The arrangement was that you were not to pay anything?

Mr. Senator. I wasn’t to pay, but you know I would help him. I would help him Fridays and Saturdays, or once in a while I would pop up during a week night.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you something to get it straight about this Rhea Manufacturing Co.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What did they do? What did they make?

Mr. Senator. They manufacture dresses and sportswear.

Mr. Griffin. I notice your social security earnings record with Smoler Bros., that there seemed to be times regularly where you did not report any earnings from them, or they did not report any payments to you I should say, to be more accurate. Was there something seasonal about that business with Smoler Bros.?

Mr. Senator. The type business?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Yes; every season wasn’t good. In other words, let me put it this way: When you get down to the latter part of the year, you know, see, we are more so of a cotton housecoat, not a housecoat but a cotton dress. You have seen these women wear these inexpensive cotton dresses. They look like plaid variations. Well, this wasn’t a big factor at that time of the year. In other words, our spring and our summer was the best for us as far as selling goes.

Mr. Griffin. And the spring and the summer were you selling for the spring and summer seasons, or were you selling in the spring and summer for the following season?

Mr. Senator. Let me explain it this way: I’m certain we are both on the right track, but let me explain it this way. In other words, we will start in May. In May your fall lines come out, see, come out, and you start selling them in May. Some of them sell them in April, even. It all depends who the manufacturer is and how fast they put them out. Then your spring line—let’s see, from the fall line your spring line will come out in, I think it’s August, August of the year.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see if we cannot get it this way. You never actually ceased your employment with Smoler’s at any time until the final time?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, there are periods from these reports that we have in which Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you. What we want to know, is: Is it a fact that you did not earn anything during that period or did not even draw during that period, or have you any explanation for the reason that Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you during several years in a row for certain quarters, seemingly for the third and fourth quarter of each year, and why would that be?

Mr. Griffin. That is right.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Were you always on a draw right along?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Were there some periods during each year when you did not earn your draw?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes: there were many times I didn’t earn my draw.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anything seasonal about that? Were there certain times of the year when you were working when it regularly happened that you did not earn your draw?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Griffin. What times of the year did that tend to be when you did not earn your draw?

Mr. Senator. I cannot base it on any particular time or periods, but there were many times, especially when you get chopped down a bit on your loans. I have never made what you call any big money with them. I was always, I would imagine, hitting probably around my draw part, or there may have been times when I fell even behind.

Mr. Hubert. I want to get to the time when you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, I have a couple of questions. I would like to clear up on some much earlier stuff before you get to that.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Griffin. First of all, where is Gloversville, N.Y.? What part of New York State is that?

Mr. Senator. Are you familiar with Albany?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. You are familiar with Schenectady?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. How about Amsterdam?

Mr. Griffin. Well, if I am not, if you tell us where it is.

Mr. Senator. I haven’t been there in so many years I may not have the right direction now. All I know is I am trying to figure what the locality is. It is 30 miles from Schenectady. In other words, it is off the beaten path a bit from your main lines.

Mr. Griffin. It is upstate New York?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I would probably say in the locale of the foothills of the Adirondacks.

Mr. Griffin. Now I perhaps did not catch this, but there was a period in 1947 when you went to work in New Hampshire?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Why did you go to New Hampshire?

Mr. Senator. I needed a job.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to go there?

Mr. Senator. The man who was running the Red Rooster—what was the name of it again?

Mr. Hubert. The Hensroost.

Mr. Senator. Yes; the Hensroost; he was up there for the summer. So he got me a job up there for the summer. That was another time when I was very much in need of a job. The type of work that I did up there, they had a little place where the help used to come in, you know, to eat or drink or buy cigars, separation from the guest part. This is the part I worked, made them hamburgers or whatever it may be of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. I do not have anything else, Mr. Hubert, if you want to go on.

Mr. Hubert. Now, as I understand it, it was in May of 1954, almost 10 years ago, that you moved to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How soon after moving to Dallas did you meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. I would say it may have been—I would say approximately about within a year or approximately about a year; I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life.

Mr. Hubert. You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met him?

Mr. Senator. I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or take a few.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him.

Mr. Senator. How I met him?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to—I am certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. That is where, you know—at that time this is all Jack Ruby had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else walked in, Jack Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how your friendship or acquaintance developed?

Mr. Senator. I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know; it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, “Hi, George”; “Hi, Jack, how are you?”

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first meeting?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous to that it has always been, “Jack, how are you?” wherever I met him; having coffee, he always offered to buy me something to eat.

Mr. Hubert. You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago as casual?

Mr. Senator. Strictly casual, like I’d meet any other friend anywhere else.

Mr. Hubert. It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately developed, in any case.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice.

Mr. Hubert. You did not go to the Vegas very much?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t go to the Vegas very much.

Mr. Hubert. At the time you indicated that there was a change in that casual relationship to something else 2 years ago.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what brought that about?

Mr. Senator. Yes. (Brief recess.)

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at the very beginning of it, and further that you are under the same oath that you were prior to the recess. Is that agreeable with you? You understand that?

Mr. Senator. I can’t lie because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Senator. I said I am not lying because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. Hubert. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to have a lawyer?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. I just wanted to get it straight.

Mr. Senator. I say that I didn’t come here to lie; so I don’t need a lawyer.

Mr. Hubert. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into something else. Why don’t you just tell us about that in your own words?

Mr. Senator. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up to Jack’s place, his other place, which is the Carousel. Previous to that there was the Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly.

Mr. Hubert. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?

Mr. Senator. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2½ years ago. I used to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they don’t let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember actually when that opened?

Mr. Senator. Which?

Mr. Hubert. The Sovereign.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the Carousel?

Mr. Senator. I wasn’t around for the change, but I would say that it was over 2 years ago. Now just how much over, I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or 6 months?

Mr. Senator. That it changed to the Carousel?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t quote that. I couldn’t even quote it.

Mr. Griffin. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?

Mr. Senator. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of things?

Mr. Senator. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words, you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that nature. And when I traveled for him and I’d get back to town, he would knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn’t stable with him.

Mr. Griffin. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn’t have membership in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. Senator. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts, singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have striptease performance?

Mr. Senator. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had the Sovereign Club.

Mr. Griffin. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I knew some of them; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you visit any of those?

Mr. Senator. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn’t afford them, number one. I was never a member because I couldn’t afford membership. I wasn’t making that kind of money. But I’d either go up with a friend who was a member or something of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more attractive to you than some of the other clubs?

Mr. Senator. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and Jack said like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say “Come on up, be my guest,” free admission.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in?

Mr. Senator. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and the Adolphus don’t you or you heard of it?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre Lounge?

Mr. Senator. As of recent?

Mr. Griffin. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and Jack would let you in.

Mr. Senator. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn’t know the manager, who the manager was at that time.

Mr. Griffin. You know Abe Weinstein?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; I don’t know him that well. I know who he is, I know him casually.

Mr. Griffin. Had you visited his clubs?

Mr. Senator. On very rare occasions. Abe’s place I have probably been up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many times.

Mr. Hubert. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more than that commencing roughly about 2½ years ago when you began to go to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving relationship let’s say in the sense that you got to know each other better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from there.

Mr. Senator. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature, he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when he knew I was broke. He said “George you can stay with me.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from another source?

Mr. Senator. No; I told him I was down.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask to go in with him?

Mr. Senator. No; I’ll tell you why. I don’t think I did. At that time Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there I don’t know because I wasn’t intimate with him at that time, that intimate. And he went into this burlesque business.

Mr. Hubert. That is the Carousel you mean?

Mr. Senator. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck them he has really got something to buck.

Mr. Hubert. So he was having difficulties and you were too?

Mr. Senator. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he didn’t have an apartment at all?

Mr. Senator. He didn’t have an apartment at that time.

Mr. Hubert. How long did that situation go on?

Mr. Senator. It didn’t last too long, because as business started to pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile.

Mr. Hubert. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment which he then had?

Mr. Senator. He didn’t have an apartment.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I say.

Mr. Senator. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. But he was always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he gave you cash?

Mr. Senator. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money or he would just take me.

Mr. Hubert. Just do what?

Mr. Senator. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He’d pay for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature.

Mr. Hubert. But then he did get an apartment?

Mr. Senator. He got an apartment but I don’t remember just how long after that.

Mr. Hubert. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that apartment with him?

Mr. Senator. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don’t remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the apartment. I can’t remember just how long I stayed up at the club with him. It wasn’t too long, though. I don’t remember how long. But anyhow he got this apartment on South Ewing.

Mr. Hubert. On South Ewing?

Mr. Senator. No; Marsalis.

Mr. Hubert. And then you moved in with him right away?

Mr. Senator. Then I went in with him. Now I don’t remember if I went in with him—I don’t remember how I went in with him. I can’t place it together but I know I was there.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have to pay any rent?

Mr. Senator. No; but I helped him in the club.

Mr. Hubert. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What kind of work did you do at the club?

Mr. Senator. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I’d take cash for him.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that is on the front door?

Mr. Senator. Yes; on the front door.

Mr. Hubert. That is the $2 admission charge?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is right.

Mr. Hubert. And what other jobs did you do?

Mr. Senator. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t do the clean-up jobs?

Mr. Senator. No. He had a clean-up boy.

Mr. Hubert. Who was he?

Mr. Senator. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. Was he there when you first went there?

Mr. Senator. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until the time the club closed down.

Mr. Hubert. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it?

Mr. Senator. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan for swimming. Or he’d just mope around the place or hang around the apartment house.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while.

Mr. Senator. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me up, I had to do something, see.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I had in mind.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave at the same time that he did?

Mr. Senator. I would leave when he left.

Mr. Hubert. Because you were both going back to the same house?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What about going there? You went earlier?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in the apartment longer than I could.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you normally go to work then?

Mr. Senator. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up.

Mr. Hubert. You never had to go in midafternoon though?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of that sort?

Mr. Senator. Andrew.

Mr. Hubert. What time did Andrew get there?

Mr. Senator. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around 1 o’clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I guess, maybe a little longer.

Mr. Hubert. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions and so you moved in with Corbat?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of 1963—is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was your relationship with Jack then?

Mr. Senator. August of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. That is when you moved out of Jack’s apartment and took up with Corbat.

Mr. Senator. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there. At rare times I would help him at the door.

Mr. Hubert. But you had a job then?

Mr. Senator. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the door, things of that kind.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with Corbat, is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes.

Mr. Hubert. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you.

Mr. Senator. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got along excepting when he hollered at me.

Mr. Hubert. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile?

Mr. Senator. Yes; a wagon.

Mr. Hubert. A station wagon?

Mr. Senator. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them?

Mr. Griffin. One of those Volkswagen microbuses?