TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR (continued 5)

Mr. Griffin. The office of the Secret Service? Moore is with the Secret Service.

Mr. Senator. Yes, the Secret Service. I meant to say the Secret Service.

Mr. Griffin. Did he call you and ask you to come down?

Mr. Senator. Yes. He had left a message at the Carousel or he may have been up there. As a matter of fact, I can even show you his card if you would like to see it. I’ve still got that.

Mr. Griffin. What makes you think you were staying with the Lauves at that point?

Mr. Senator. I think I was there. I’m not sure. I don’t remember just where, but I think I was there at that time, because when Elmer Moore called me, I just don’t remember how many days have elapsed by when he called me, see. I think it was a few days that were elapsed by when he called me and I think I may have been at the Lauves at that time.

Mr. Griffin. Did you return to work at any time before Moore——

Mr. Senator. Return to work?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; before Moore called you.

Mr. Senator. I hadn’t worked at all from this thing here up until I told you I went to work the other day. If you want to classify me, I was just existing here and there, that is all.

Mr. Griffin. Your employment up until the time that the President was killed was with the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was that your own company?

Mr. Senator. I was classified as sales manager and partner, but with no say. In other words, I had no money.

Mr. Griffin. Who were the people, the backers?

Mr. Senator. The backers?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. The people? A fellow by the name of Mort Seder and Ernest St. Charles.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to get involved in that?

Mr. Senator. In the postcard business?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; with them?

Mr. Senator. Well, Ernest St. Charles found out—see, he had a card rack like a lot of drug stores do or gift shops or things of that nature. He had found out that this fellow wanted to sell his business because this was a minute business with him because, he had another one, you know, which was much larger or whatever, the household goods or something of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. As I understand it, the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co. was a going business.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Before Seder and St. Charles got involved in it?

Mr. Senator. Yes; it was going. It was a going business. And he wanted to get rid of this business, because I just don’t remember if he couldn’t handle it or he couldn’t handle both of them, I think it was. And this business here, he had to get rid of because it was deteriorating a bit because it wasn’t getting the service. It wasn’t being handled for the service. In other words, his business had slipped a certain amount.

Mr. Griffin. Did Seder and St. Charles put up some money to acquire this business?

Mr. Senator. Yes, they put up the money; yes.

Mr. Griffin. About how much money did they put up?

Mr. Senator. I think they put up somewheres around $1,500 apiece, and I think they took a note for $1,500. I think the business went for $3,000, if I can remember right.

Mr. Griffin. What assets, what kind of assets did they acquire?

Mr. Senator. The cards.

Mr. Griffin. No office space?

Mr. Senator. No, no. See, he is in business in a little sort of a garage like in the back of his house. In the back of his house he has got this sort of garage-like thing.

Mr. Griffin. Who are you talking about?

Mr. Senator. The fellow that had it.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what his name was?

Mr. Senator. I should remember his name. I can’t even think of his name right now.

Mr. Griffin. All right, maybe you will think of it later. Did Seder and St. Charles have another business which they operated while they——

Mr. Senator. Yes; this business was a small little thing.

Mr. Griffin. This was a sideline with them?

Mr. Senator. Just a little thing. It wasn’t even, you know—it was a small little business.

Mr. Griffin. What was Seder’s main business?

Mr. Senator. Seder was a traveling man who sold men’s apparel.

Mr. Griffin. What was St. Charles’ main business?

Mr. Senator. St. Charles, a drugstore.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you acquire the postcards and novelties from?

Mr. Senator. The novelties, you see, there was a few novelties that he had left over in this thing here, in this business here, which weren’t that good, and I got rid of them at a loss, you know.

Mr. Griffin. Did you buy any——

Mr. Senator. There wasn’t that much.

Mr. Griffin. Did you buy any more novelties to supplant those?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you buy those?

Mr. Senator. Some I bought locally and some were bought out of town.

Mr. Griffin. And I take it the postcards, you had some source supplying the postcards too?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Seder and St. Charles between the time that Jack Ruby killed Oswald and the time that Elmer Moore talked with you?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so. I don’t think so.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to him by telephone?

Mr. Senator. Who?

Mr. Griffin. Seder and St. Charles.

Mr. Senator. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. I take it then that you did not feel any obligation to report back to them and tell them that you were not going to be——

Mr. Senator. I was obligated, but the condition I felt, it was just a no-care attitude any more.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any sort of a draw from this postcard and novelty company?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What was your draw?

Mr. Senator. It was $75 a week, but I was drawing $61.45.

Mr. Griffin. Did you continue with your draw after Jack——

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t continue after Jack killed Oswald?

Mr. Senator. Nothing. I didn’t do anything.

Mr. Griffin. Now, after Elmer Moore talked with you, you were then interviewed some time later by two FBI agents, Mr. Rawlings and Glonek?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember where you were staying at that time?

Mr. Senator. I think I was staying with Lauve. The first approximately 10 days you know, I was just jumping around. But from there on in I was with Lauve.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you stay with the Lauves?

Mr. Senator. I must have stayed with them, I would probably say approximately around 5 weeks, I think.

Mr. Griffin. When did you leave Dallas?

Mr. Senator. I left Dallas, I think it was about the end of the first week, if I remember right.

Mr. Griffin. Of what?

Mr. Senator. January.

Mr. Griffin. And when did you return to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. It was the latter part of February. I think it was the last week in February.

Mr. Griffin. While you were away from Dallas, where were you?

Mr. Senator. At my sister’s.

Mr. Griffin. That is Freda Weisberg in New York?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What was your occasion for returning to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. I knew I had to be a witness because I was called on the first bond hearing.

Mr. Griffin. That was your occasion?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. For returning?

Mr. Senator. I had to come back as a witness.

Mr. Griffin. In the bond hearing?

Mr. Senator. No, no. I was at the bond hearing before I went away. I think I was at the first bond hearing. I don’t remember the date, but it was in December sometime.

Mr. Griffin. Was that before or after you talked with Agents Rawlings and Glonek that you appeared at the bond hearing?

Mr. Senator. That was before because I remember one day that I met one of the agents. As a matter of fact, I was in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel and one of the agents hollered out, “Hi, George” and I turned around to see who it was. It happened he was talking to some other agents and they were departing, they were going home.

So I walked over to him and I asked him who would I notify if I wanted to, who would I notify with the FBI that I was going to leave, that I wanted to go home but I wanted them to know where I was going, and he mentioned, call Mr. Clements.

Mr. Griffin. At the time of the first bond hearing, who was representing Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. Mr. Belli, Joe Tannenbaum—not Tannenbaum, Joe Tonahill.

Mr. Griffin. Anyone else?

Mr. Senator. Tom Howard was in it, but at that time he had no say.

Mr. Griffin. What happened that Howard was not given any say?

Mr. Senator. Well, I am not sure how to relate it, but I think that Earl Ruby, who was in Detroit then, was still in Detroit, spoke to some lawyer I think in Chicago now. I think it was in Chicago, looking for a lawyer, a big lawyer for Jack Ruby, and this lawyer to my knowledge, if I understand it right, was quoted to get Mr. Belli.

Mr. Griffin. And how about Tonahill? How did Tonahill get in?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. Tonahill, it seems, must have been a friend of Belli. The relationship I don’t know, how they met or something of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. Have you talked to Jack Ruby between the time you last saw him that Sunday morning, the 24th of November, and now?

Mr. Senator. In the jail.

Mr. Griffin. Have you talked to him?

Mr. Senator. In jail, sure.

Mr. Griffin. When did you talk with Jack?

Mr. Senator. Various times, various times that Sheriff Decker would let me up.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see him before the bond hearing?

Mr. Senator. I think I did, yes. I think so. I think I was up there. I mean I can’t quote dates. I don’t even remember what the date of the bond hearing was.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember the first time you went up to see him?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you go up with anybody?

Mr. Senator. No, I went up alone. The reason for that, the reason I say I went up alone is because nobody was up there, allowed up there, besides the family and maybe very, very close friends because Sheriff Decker wouldn’t allow anybody in.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you spend with Jack that first time?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember. You know, they have got a limitation on you. I don’t remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn’t too long because they let you know that you have got to go.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us what happened on this occasion.

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember what it was. First of all, I never talked to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that. I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked me to go, whom I never saw, never got to.

Mr. Griffin. What was Jack’s relationship with Gordon McLendon?

Mr. Senator. He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come to the bond hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He rattled off the manager, I don’t remember the name, from the Statler Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I am not mistaken.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. He didn’t discuss that, but I do know—I can’t answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it.

Mr. Griffin. Unless you have some information which leads you to think how he felt.

Mr. Senator. I don’t have information on that.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were really serious about making bond?

Mr. Senator. I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever talk with them?

Mr. Senator. No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn’t discuss anything with me at no time. They said, “George, we are going to use you as a witness,” which I knew they wanted me for that.

Mr. Griffin. There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the case?

Mr. Senator. He was part of the case; he was still part of the case when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a part of the case; is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not sure, but I think he was. I don’t think he was in the case.

Mr. Griffin. When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to talk with Howard at all?

Mr. Senator. I saw him on certain occasions.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case?

Mr. Senator. Well, he got out of the case—I mean I really don’t know, but I feel he got out of the case because he was—there was nothing, practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to describe him. He had no say.

Mr. Griffin. Was it something he had told you?

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Griffin. Was it something he had told you?

Mr. Senator. No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don’t know how to classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you know, and then all the things materialized after that.

Mr. Griffin. How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. How many times?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. A guess?

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it.

Mr. Senator. Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would guess.

Mr. Griffin. Did you notice any change in him over this period of time?

Mr. Senator. Sure.

Mr. Griffin. When did you first notice that he was changing; that there was some change?

Mr. Senator. I saw him very few times, you know, previous to when I went away, but his change—when I really noticed the change was after I came back.

Mr. Griffin. This was in February?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. After the 18th of February?

Mr. Senator. Yes. His voice was getting lower, and his head was hanging down, and this is the way it was all the way up until the period, even after the trial. I don’t know—I don’t know how to describe the words; you call it deterioration or whatever runs through him; I don’t know. I would never ask him anything like that, you know. I never spoke about anything like that; anything but that.

Mr. Griffin. Did you notice a change——

Mr. Senator. He had lost weight.

Mr. Griffin. He had lost weight?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. You noticed a change in his voice and something about the way he carried his head?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Anything else?

Mr. Senator. And he lost weight. Of course, he quoted the Bible to me.

Mr. Griffin. Had he ever done that before?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. I mean to you; had he ever quoted from the Bible to you before?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t think so, that I can remember of.

Mr. Griffin. What passages of the Bible was he quoting?

Mr. Senator. He didn’t. He didn’t quote the passages, but he quoted that he was reading the Bible. He didn’t quote any passages to me.

Mr. Griffin. How about his manner of speech other than the deepness of his voice? Was there anything about the manner of his speech?

Mr. Senator. What do you mean; the manner of his speech?

Mr. Griffin. Coherence, his ability to carry through on a topic of conversation. Was he able to discuss topics as lucidly as he had discussed them previously to you?

Mr. Senator. No. I’ll tell you, it got so that there was a hesitation. The words were even silent. There was no speaking at times; just, you know, like, you know. In other words, you know, there is very little of him I could see. I was looking through this little glass. I couldn’t touch him or nothing. In other words, instead of his wall being plaster, the thing was steel or iron, whatever it was; see what I mean?

Mr. Griffin. So you and he would be separated?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes. I couldn’t even touch him. It was impossible.

Mr. Griffin. How much of him could you see? We are going to have to get this on the record. This is the problem.

Mr. Senator. In other words, I am standing up here and I am looking through a glass about like this.

Mr. Griffin. You are looking through a little glass door?

Mr. Senator. And like this.

Mr. Griffin. A little glass window?

Mr. Senator. A window something like this.

Mr. Griffin. Maybe 12 inches long and 8 inches high or something?

Mr. Senator. Approximately. This is a guess.

Mr. Griffin. At about eye level?

Mr. Senator. Yes; it’s eye level. And under it are these perforations that you have to talk to; holes. You know; perforated holes.

Mr. Griffin. Perforations in a door of some sort?

Mr. Senator. No door; no.

Mr. Griffin. Just a wall?

Mr. Senator. Just a wall.

Mr. Griffin. And you could not see Jack other than through that window?

Mr. Senator. No. That is the only thing. It is just a solid——

Mr. Griffin. Steel?

Mr. Senator. A solid steel wall. At one end was a door, but that was solid, too. In other words, when you looked at the door you might as well say it was part of the wall.

Mr. Griffin. This was the cell that Jack was kept in?

Mr. Senator. No; this was no cell. I don’t know what cell he was in.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack stay in there?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. He was brought in?

Mr. Senator. This is a hallway. This was a narrow hallway. Apparently they didn’t let you know the cell he was in. I never saw him in a cell. I have never seen any cells. They’d bring him down in, and, of course, I can’t see which way they are coming through. All I can say is they are coming this way when I walk in, and this is this little hall, this little hallway. I can’t see every bit of him, you know.

Mr. Griffin. And were these always the conditions under which you talked to Jack, even before you left Dallas?

Mr. Senator. That is the only way I have ever seen him, from beginning to end. That is the only way I could ever see him. In other words, there was no time that I could even touch him to shake his hand; nothing, because there was nothing but a solid iron or steel, or whatever it was, wall.

Mr. Griffin. You indicated that, of course, you noticed the most marked change in him when you returned to Dallas, and I take it from that that, up until the time you left Dallas, you didn’t notice any substantial changes in him?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say that there may have been a little—you know, there may have been some change, but how much there was or how much; I know this; I am certain within the man there would have to be some change, because when I left already, how long has passed, maybe 5 or 6 weeks have already passed by. Within the feelings of himself, which I don’t know, there must have been some change within him, you know, which I sort of surmised. Now, how much, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Has there ever been any time that you have talked to Jack where he wasn’t coherent?

Mr. Senator. Take that coherent word and use another phrase.

Mr. Griffin. You use a phrase that is more appropriate to you. I take it you have some idea of what I am suggesting.

Mr. Senator. Well, when you say “coherent,” break it down to another word and make it more simplified for me.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anytime that you talked to him where it appeared that he did not understand what you were saying to him?

Mr. Senator. I never noticed it, or even thought about it that way. I don’t even know.

Mr. Griffin. Was there ever anytime when you would ask him a question or say something to him and you would get back a response which did not make any sense to you?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so; not that I can recall. I don’t think so.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anytime when you would ask Jack questions and he would not be able to respond at all?

Mr. Senator. No; he was able to respond.

Mr. Griffin. Have you at anytime talked with Jack about the events of November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. Senator. Never at anytime have I ever been at that jailhouse where anything like that ever come up. I have never asked him, and I don’t think anybody would to my knowledge, would ask him questions like that, because this would be a hard subject to talk about. I would assume probably in the condition that he was in and the locale, the placement of where he is in, of what he is in——

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack ever indicate to you any fear; has he indicated any fear to you in the times that you have talked to him since he shot Oswald?

Mr. Senator. He didn’t look fearful to me. Now I don’t know, you know. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. What I want to do now is go through with you some documents. I have got a series of photographs and other things here, and I want to ask you some questions about them. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit 5304-A,” which was used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph, and I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. Senator. I am not familiar with it.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t. Where is it supposed to be?

Mr. Griffin. That is what I am asking you.

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Can you look at the man who is tending bar? Do you recognize him?

Mr. Senator. No; it is a pretty shady picture to see his face.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5304-B, which was also used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is another photograph, and it shows a girl in a western costume standing on a table. Do you recognize any of the people in that photograph, or do you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. Senator. No; never seen a place with elkhorns or whatever they are. Is that a night club or a restaurant, that place?

Mr. Griffin. I was hoping you would be able to tell us.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I’ll tell you with a guess; it looks like a restaurant, according to the curtains. That is what it looks like to me. I don’t even know.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to show you what has been marked as “Exhibit 5302,” and unless I indicate to the contrary, all of these exhibits have been used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man?

Mr. Senator. No; is he a Dallas man? I don’t know that man.

Mr. Griffin. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. Senator. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don’t know who he is, but I have seen him.

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating a fat, obese man?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I have seen him.

Mr. Griffin. Where have you seen him?

Mr. Senator. At the Carousel. I believe these occurred, I think, when they were having—what do you call that now? I think when they were giving prizes away, if I am not mistaken, on this particular time, and then sometimes they would have on Friday or Saturday, Saturday night, amateur hour.

Mr. Griffin. This would be amateur strippers?

Mr. Senator. Once in a while—there was one girl who would always bring up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do the twist. Now this wasn’t every night; only this one girl when she was on.

Mr. Griffin. Of Jack’s stripteasers?

Mr. Senator. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist once.

Mr. Griffin. That big, fat man?

Mr. Senator. Yes. But I can’t see the faces here. But I can’t help but recognize him.

Mr. Griffin. You can’t make out the faces in looking at those photographs?

Mr. Senator. This is an M.C.

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating the center photograph at the top?

Mr. Senator. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi.

Mr. Griffin. Tammi True?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. The left-hand side in the third photograph?

Mr. Senator. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi’s? Yes; that is Tammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I know her, but I can’t tell which one that is. That is about all I can see there. The majority are all customers.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers.

Mr. Senator. No, because they ain’t looking this way.

Mr. Griffin. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs.

Mr. Senator. That is Tammi True.

Mr. Griffin. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi True?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize any of the customers?

Mr. Senator. This you can’t see at all. This you can’t see at all. I can’t tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of seeing. This you can’t see hardly.

Mr. Griffin. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs?

Mr. Senator. I know the stripper.

Mr. Griffin. Who is that?

Mr. Senator. That is Kathy Kay, but I can’t recognize anybody from the back.

Mr. Griffin. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is Little Lynn.

Mr. Griffin. The stripper is Little Lynn?

Mr. Senator. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last name?

Mr. Griffin. Bennett.

Mr. Senator. Bennett; yes. I don’t recognize anybody else here though.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with Jack Ruby the last time?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember. All I know—see, I didn’t always come there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her there and, of course, I didn’t know who she was. She had already been there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn’t know. This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that.

Mr. Griffin. It was at the trial, was it not?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Or one of the hearings.

Mr. Senator. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn’t have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there, that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that, and she didn’t even know the gun was in there, according to what I have heard.

Mr. Griffin. You haven’t talked to her about it?

Mr. Senator. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her.

Mr. Griffin. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I know the stripper.

Mr. Griffin. Who is that?

Mr. Senator. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other way. That is why I can’t recognize anybody.

Mr. Griffin. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. Senator. This is Kathy Kay.

Mr. Griffin. The stripper is Kathy Kay?

Mr. Senator. Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.

Mr. Griffin. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And Kathy Kay on the left?

Mr. Senator. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I don’t know his name.

Mr. Griffin. The top picture in the center?

Mr. Senator. Yes. And the cocktail waitress.

Mr. Griffin. Who is the cocktail waitress?

Mr. Senator. Bonnie something. I don’t know her last name.

Mr. Griffin. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side?

Mr. Senator. Bonnie. I don’t know her last name.

Mr. Griffin. But you don’t recognize anybody else?

Mr. Senator. Let me see. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. Senator. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay. This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can’t see no faces there.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers, do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures?

Mr. Senator. You don’t want the strippers, right?

Mr. Griffin. That is right.

Mr. Senator. I am looking for the face here but I can’t see it. This one I can’t see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don’t think so but I just can’t see their face well.

Mr. Griffin. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do you recognize any of the people?

Mr. Senator. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no, I don’t. The M.C. I don’t know him.

Mr. Griffin. Who is the M.C.?

Mr. Senator. I don’t even know his name. He was only there a short while, this particular one here.

Mr. Griffin. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K.

Mr. Senator. Where did you get this good picture?

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize any of the people shown there?

Mr. Senator. That is the cocktail waitress. I can’t distinguished who it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. You are pointing to——

Mr. Senator. But I am not sure. I’ll tell you, I am looking at the head because it is sort of baldish.

Mr. Griffin. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you don’t recognize any of them?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. Kathy Kay.

Mr. Griffin. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby’s right, or left as you look at the picture?

Mr. Senator. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice.

Mr. Griffin. The girl on Jack Ruby’s left, Jack’s left but the right side of the picture?

Mr. Senator. Alice, I don’t remember her last name.

Mr. Griffin. How long had Alice worked for Jack?

Mr. Senator. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two, but I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack date Alice?

Mr. Senator. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack’s apartment?

Mr. Senator. I think she came there once for I think it was a job interference. I think for some reason, I don’t know what it was because I didn’t stay, but she was there once. She came there one afternoon. I don’t know what happened.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of the girls in that picture?

Mr. Senator. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn.

Mr. Griffin. On the right?

Mr. Senator. Right.

Mr. Griffin. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the picture?

Mr. Senator. Yes: Little Lynn on the right.

Mr. Griffin. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these memoranda.

Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those that are shown in those photographs?

Mr. Senator. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it don’t matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes, everything else like he kept his money, all over.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home?

Mr. Senator. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn’t immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is the way he was.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this?

Mr. Senator. Not that I know of. I can’t say yes or no, but not to my knowledge that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home?

Mr. Senator. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper, sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by. I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is just no particular type piece of paper with him.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been?

Mr. Senator. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Emma Ship?

Mr. Senator. No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Jean Bordon?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a notebook which had a cover which said “Aladdin,” and I ask you first of all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in his pocket, I assume that is it.

Mr. Griffin. Would you look through those photographs and look through all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you recognize that notebook?

Mr. Senator. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of them.

Mr. Griffin. Are you able to read what is on those pages?

Mr. Senator. Some yes and some no.

Mr. Griffin. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall having seen this particular notebook?

Mr. Senator. I know he had a book. Now, I don’t know about the cover, but I know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know that he had a notebook of some sort.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on there?

Mr. Senator. Leonard, isn’t that right? That is Leonard.

Mr. Griffin. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them.

Mr. Senator. Frank Barber.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names.

Mr. Senator. Frank Bourber or Barber.

Mr. Griffin. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize any of them.

Mr. Hubert. May I make this suggestion?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Senator. I know some of the names on there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. Senator. It probably could be Jack’s, I guess.

Mr. Griffin. But would you recognize Jack’s handwriting?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think, offhand, I would, but I assume these probably are Jack’s handwritings, I guess.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. How about Pauline?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Pauline Hall?

Mr. Senator. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know the face but I may not recognize the name.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club?

Mr. Senator. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that. Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name. I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas Club.

Mr. Griffin. You say she worked there at times?

Mr. Senator. Yes; not steady. I wouldn’t say she worked there steady. There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven’t seen her working.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Billy Brook?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Bobbie Patterson?

Mr. Senator. I think I have heard of that name, but I can’t think who it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that name Bobbie Patterson, but I can’t refresh my mind. It seems I have heard that name.

Mr. Griffin. Howard Foster?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Sammy Tucker?

Mr. Senator. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do, would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew?

Mr. Griffin. If you could read them. Could you go through there and pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on there you can’t read.

Mr. Senator. What is this? Is this Goody?

Mr. Griffin. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure.

Mr. Senator. Fred Fillman, I don’t know who he is. You want me to sound out the names, don’t you?

Mr. Griffin. Just comment on the ones you recognize.

Mr. Senator. What does this say? It looks like Rita.

Mr. Griffin. It looks like Ruth Shay.

Mr. Hubert. You had better make reference to the document you are talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with reference to Exhibit 5305-F.

Mr. Senator. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I don’t know. I have heard that name. I don’t know who she is.

Mr. Griffin. What name are you talking about?

Mr. Senator. Tex DeLacy.

Mr. Griffin. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the name R. T. Brown on there.

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know who that is.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you 5305-H.

Mr. Senator. There is no other names on there.

Mr. Griffin. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names on there?

Mr. Senator. What is that, Joseph Rossi?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know him. The rest are just figurations here, numbers or moneys.

Mr. Griffin. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer.

Mr. Senator. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out how to classify him now.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us what he does.

Mr. Senator. He is with, I think he is with AGVA.

Mr. Griffin. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay.

Mr. Griffin. Of the entertainers?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Have you met Tom Palmer?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where have you met him?

Mr. Senator. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the street, or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. About how many different occasions would you say you have met him?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of that nature, but he always came to Jack.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him in the few weeks before Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.

Mr. Senator. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what that says? I don’t know her, but is that what it says?

Mr. Griffin. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. Senator. No. And Woodruff, I don’t know who that is. But, mind you, I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don’t know the names. I may know them if I see their face.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. J. B. Gruber, I don’t know who he is.

Mr. Griffin. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.

Mr. Senator. KLIF radio station.

Mr. Griffin. KLIF?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don’t know if Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says diskjockey. I knew he was something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Have you met him?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think I have ever met him, but I have heard of that name.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack talk to you about him?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have, but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don’t know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. Senator. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with these.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know Alex Gruber?

Mr. Senator. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not familiar with the name.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn’t hand it to the witness.

Mr. Senator. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman.

Mr. Griffin. Who is Buddy Turman?

Mr. Senator. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real fine fellow. That is why I say I don’t know Nick.

Mr. Griffin. Now, was he a friend of Jack’s?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he was of Jack’s sure.

Mr. Griffin. Did you meet Turman through Jack?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes.

Mr. Griffin. Through Jack?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him some other place. I met him some other place. I can’t think where I met him, but I didn’t meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack’s place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This Nick Turman, I don’t know if this is related to him or what it is. I am not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know a name Norma, and I can’t place it; I wonder if this is somebody who ever worked for him, Norma.

Mr. Griffin. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or so before——

Mr. Senator. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was going to the West Coast to train, because from there—now I don’t know if it ever materialized—from there he was going to England to fight. I can’t think of that heavyweight fighter.

Mr. Griffin. Bruce Wilcox?

Mr. Senator. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn’t fight too long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very awkward, and sort of a slap, like. Do you remember who that is?

Mr. Griffin. No, I don’t. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in prizefighting?

Mr. Senator. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to watch them.

Mr. Griffin. But he never expressed any particular interest to you?

Mr. Senator. No, but he liked to watch the fights.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the fight game when he was a younger man?

Mr. Senator. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross’ bag around. How young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don’t remember. But I know it was as a youngster.

I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi, so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little Lynn.

Wait; I haven’t gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there, and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is.

Mr. Griffin. For entertainers?

Mr. Senator. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don’t know the rest of them.

Mr. Griffin. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N, and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize any of them.

Mr. Senator. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it says The Smoker’s Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe store.

Mr. Griffin. What dealings did Jack have with him?

Mr. Senator. None that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. Jack didn’t smoke, did he?

Mr. Senator. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at one time or another; and I don’t know who this Kierney Aikens is. I don’t know him.

Mr. Griffin. A-i-k-e-n-s?

Mr. Senator. A-i-k-e-n. I don’t who he is. What does this say here? This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here?

Mr. Griffin. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Etheridge?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Ray Hawkins?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Sue Blake?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know her.

Mr. Griffin. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is 5305-O, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I will hand you that. There is a name “Bishop” written there. Does that name mean anything to you?

Mr. Senator. I think I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who it is. I don’t know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of that name.

Mr. Griffin. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Mike Shore?

Mr. Senator. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes with it?

Mr. Griffin. No.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Dr. Uhlevitch?

Mr. Senator. Does it say what he is?

Mr. Griffin. No.

Mr. Senator. Is he local, Dallas?

Mr. Griffin. I presume so.

Mr. Senator. What is the exchange?

Mr. Griffin. It doesn’t give an exchange, just the name.

Mr. Senator. Uhlevitch?

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Stanley Kaufman?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he is a lawyer.

Mr. Griffin. Had you met him?

Mr. Senator. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is.

Mr. Griffin. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to you about him?

Mr. Senator. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another, whatever it may be, but I wasn’t——

Mr. Griffin. Was he a personal friend of Jack’s?

Mr. Senator. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now, how personal, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman as you were to Jim Martin, for example?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know, but I know that—as a matter of fact, even now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don’t know what you want to actually call close, you know. I can’t tell you what close is.

Mr. Griffin. How about John Hilt?

Mr. Senator. I never heard of that name.

Mr. Griffin. Dick Shepard?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know that, either.

Mr. Griffin. Abe Klinman?

Mr. Senator. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.

Mr. Griffin. Did he do work for Jack?

Mr. Senator. He has done some work for Jack.

Mr. Griffin. Jerry Wilson?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know that name.

Mr. Griffin. Mike Riaf?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Tom Palmer’s name is on here, but you have talked about that.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Ed Pullman?

Mr. Senator. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for Jack for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don’t know how to describe it. He is an idea man.

Mr. Griffin. A promoter?

Mr. Senator. Things that he makes.

Mr. Griffin. An inventor?

Mr. Senator. Yes; in that classification.

Mr. Griffin. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?

Mr. Senator. The only thing is—no; no business dealings. The only thing is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show—you know what I mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look—exhibits.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of things did he exhibit?

Mr. Senator. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do with them. In other words, he wasn’t manufacturing them, but he had already made these things.

Mr. Griffin. Where was he exhibiting these items?

Mr. Senator. At a place called Market Hall.

Mr. Griffin. Did Ed Pullman——

Mr. Senator. Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying to promote.

Mr. Griffin. What was that?

Mr. Senator. This is what they call—what do they call the little thing? It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you get on it and it moves around like this.

Mr. Griffin. It is a weight reducer, like?

Mr. Senator. Yes; a twister.

Mr. Griffin. Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard?

Mr. Senator. It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try and sell them.

Mr. Griffin. And for a month, what would this month cover, from the 1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of November?

Mr. Senator. No; it was either September or October, somewheres in there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months.

Mr. Griffin. Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose interest in it, or something?

Mr. Senator. It never materialized. In other words, look, he had competition because there was one already out.

Mr. Griffin. Who designed this twistboard?

Mr. Senator. I think it was manufactured by somebody in, I don’t know the name of the place, in Fort Worth.

Mr. Griffin. Who else was associated with Jack in the twistboard project?

Mr. Senator. Nobody. This is something that never really got off the ground. See, I think Jack had—what was it—maybe four or five or six dozen of the things. I just don’t remember. But it never got off the ground.

Mr. Griffin. He bought these, and then what was he going to do with them?

Mr. Senator. He was going to have them manufactured to resell.

Mr. Griffin. Did he buy them from some place other than Fort Worth, or from Fort Worth?

Mr. Senator. I am not sure whether he bought them from Fort Worth or some place else. I don’t know just where he got them from.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of material were they made out of?

Mr. Senator. It was a compressed—I don’t know what you would call it—it was a compressed thing. In other words, let me say that it was about this size here.

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating about a foot long?

Mr. Senator. Approximately about a foot square.

Mr. Griffin. A foot square?

Mr. Senator. Approximately about a foot square, and on the bottom of it—this is a compressed thing. I don’t know if you call it a compressed board, or what you call it. There was a compression. Then on the bottom of it it had, I believe, a steel roller with ballbearings in it, on the bottom, so the thing could revolve. Under that was another piece of staple, where it was staple. In other words, it had to hold the weight of an individual.

Mr. Griffin. This was something that you would lean up against?

Mr. Senator. No, no. It was on the floor, and you just got on it like that, and you go—I am not a good exhibit for a twister.

Mr. Griffin. In other words, you would stand on this board?

Mr. Senator. Yes, you would stand on it.

Mr. Griffin. You wouldn’t put it up against your back, or anything?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. You would stand on it?

Mr. Senator. Strictly stand on it, and it was a novelty.

Mr. Griffin. And the bottom part would remain stationary?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And the other part would swivel as you moved on it?

Mr. Senator. That is right. In other words, instead of going in the twist, this thing did it for you. In other words, you revolved and, of course, this was classified as an exerciser, or something of that nature. As I say, it never got off the ground.

Mr. Griffin. To your knowledge, nobody else was involved in the promotion of it with Jack?

Mr. Senator. No; definitely not; no.

Mr. Griffin. How about John Newman? Do you recognize that name?

Mr. Senator. John Newman works for the Herald or the Times, the Herald or the News. He works for either the Dallas Morning News—I forgot now—or the Herald.

Mr. Griffin. How do you happen to know him?

Mr. Senator. I met him on occasion when Jack used to go up there to place an ad once in a while, when I was living with him in 1962, you know, I went up there with him.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see Newman at the Carousel Club?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if I have or not. I just don’t remember. I couldn’t say yes or couldn’t say no. I just don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-R. Bill Petty. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. Senator. I think I have heard of that name, but don’t know who it is.

Mr. Griffin. Bill Cantrell?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know him.

Mr. Griffin. Gladys?

Mr. Senator. Gladys who?

Mr. Griffin. That is all it says.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. J. B. Herred?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know him.

Mr. Griffin. Mrs. Oscar Newman?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know her.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-S. Gloria Rettig?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know her.

Mr. Griffin. Little Lynn you have mentioned.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Vicky Williams?

Mr. Senator. Vicky Williams; I don’t know that name.

Mr. Griffin. That concludes the photographs that pertain to the Aladdin notebook. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5309-A, and this is a Xeroxed copy of another notebook that has on the front cover, “This is a Robinson reminder. Jot it down. Do It. Tear it. Live notes only.”

I am going to hand you this and ask you to tell me, first of all, go through it and tell me if you remember ever seeing that notebook.

Mr. Senator. I think I have seen the cover of this. These are little tear things out, aren’t they, you tear them out?

Mr. Griffin. You are referring to what appears to be perforated segments.

Mr. Senator. Isn’t that what it is? That is what it looks like.

Mr. Griffin. On the front page. I believe that is right.

Mr. Senator. I have heard of the name Sue Pepper.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you are looking at the first page of that notebook?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And you are going to identify the names?

Mr. Senator. I have heard of the name. I don’t know who it is. A lot of the names I heard, but I just don’t know who they are. Does this say Jack Hanover? This is a little hard to read.

Mr. Griffin. Yanover, I think.

Mr. Senator. Carroll Walker I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know a Jack Hanover?

Mr. Senator. No. I don’t know the balance of these in here.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?

Mr. Senator. I think it is Jack’s. I assume it is. I am not sure, but I assume it is. It all looks like the same. I have seen the cover of a book like this. Now, the insides of it I have never seen, but I think I have seen it on him.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you are turning to the next page. Does that have a small numeral down at the bottom of that page? It has numeral 3. It is actually the second page on which there is any writing.

Mr. Senator. Wally what?

Mr. Griffin. Is that Rack—R-a-c-k? Do you know a Wally Rack?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know anything about the Doctors Club?

Mr. Senator. The Doctors Club?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I never knew there was a Doctors Club in Dallas. What is Linda’s last name?

Mr. Griffin. It looks like——

Mr. Senator. Kuhox?

Mr. Griffin. Kuhox.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Does anything like that ring a bell?

Mr. Senator. No. I don’t know anybody here. He has some first names here. I don’t know what they mean. Brenda and Angie.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize any of those first names?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s turn to the page that is numbered 4.

Mr. Senator. I know Bill Willis. Bill Willis was the drummer in the band at the Carousel Club. Tom Palmer is here again.

Mr. Griffin. You talked about him.

Mr. Senator. Yes. Kathy Kay is a stripper. Andy is the boy. I assume that is Andy.

Mr. Griffin. Andy Armstrong?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I assume the first name Kathy is Kathy Kay; right?

Mr. Griffin. I don’t know.

Mr. Senator. That is what I think it is anyhow. I don’t know. This girl, I never knew her last name, but this could have been a former stripper of some time back, this Lauri.

Mr. Griffin. Lauri?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Does Lauri have a last name?

Mr. Senator. There is a last name here, but I don’t know who.

Mr. Griffin. What is the last name?

Mr. Senator. Womack, W-o-m-a-c-k. I knew a Lauri, I think, that was a stripper for him for a while. I think it was last summer if I am not mistaken, or something like that. Russ Knight.

Mr. Griffin. K-n-i-g-h-t?

Mr. Senator. He is with a radio station, but I can’t think which one.

Mr. Griffin. Have you met him?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I knew Russ.

Mr. Griffin. Where have you met him?

Mr. Senator. I have met him—I have seen him at the bowling alley when we used to go up there at night. I have seen him on rare occasions when he would come down to the Carousel. He was, I guess you would call him, a disc jockey.

Mr. Griffin. Who did you bowl with?

Mr. Senator. Sometimes people—very seldom, mind you, very seldom—but sometimes people from the club which was very seldom. As a matter of fact, I only bowled one time, I believe. It wears me out particularly. But very seldom.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack bowl frequently?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he bowl more than you did?

Mr. Senator. Maybe a little more. I’ll tell you, this particular alley is a tremendous place in Dallas, but we always went up there to eat, on occasions, when we did go. It was always we would go up there to eat. They had a big restaurant there.

Mr. Griffin. What eating places did Jack frequent?

Mr. Senator. A lot of times when he went out, the majority of the times when he went out I wasn’t with him when he went out to eat. But he has been to—of course, it probably pertains to the time of day or night, you know, but he ate in the waffle shops, he ate at—wait; it will come to me in a minute. There is a couple on Commerce just above the Adolphus Hotel. What in the world is the name of it?

Mr. Griffin. The Egyptian Lounge?

Mr. Senator. He has ate at the Egyptian Lounge, but there is a couple in the downtown area.

Mr. Griffin. That he ate at regularly, I take it?

Mr. Senator. It is not, particularly. I can’t say regularly. I don’t know. Let me say he just varies the place. He may want to try certain foods, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack visit the Dallas Cabana?

Mr. Senator. Dallas Cabana? What in the world is the Dallas Cabana?

Mr. Griffin. The Cabana Motel.

Mr. Senator. The Cabana?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Yes; Jack has been down there.

Mr. Griffin. Does he have friends there?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if he has friends there or not. He certainly probably does know some people there. Yes; there is one chap he knew there that I know for sure, and I think he was the assistant, if he is still there, was the assistant manager. There is Ralph Paul. Of course, I am certain you have heard of his name before, Ralph Paul.

Mr. Griffin. Yes; Ralph we talked about earlier. How often would Jack see Ralph?

Mr. Senator. Ralph would come up, I would probably say he would probably come up maybe two or three times a week, about like that.

Mr. Griffin. Would they telephone each other during the week also?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say they have. I mean, not that I was always around when he did, if he did telephone him, but I am certain there were telephone calls.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have any occasion to telephone Ralph Paul?

Mr. Senator. Did I ever have occasion?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I called him, yes; I called him a couple of times. The reason I called him, I had no car, I had to go down and see him once in a while, a free lunch. He has got this place in Arlington, if you know where Arlington is, called the Bullpen. It is one of these barbecue places.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to Ralph Paul on the weekend of the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November?

Mr. Senator. By phone?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Not that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. How about in person?

Mr. Senator. It may have been possible that I may have seen him. I just don’t recall if I have seen him on that weekend. I can’t say yes or no, but it may have been possible that I may have seen him at the club. Oh, no; the club wasn’t even open.

Mr. Griffin. This was after the President was killed?

Mr. Senator. Yes; no, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I have seen him.

Mr. Griffin. You seem to have some recollection, though, that you might have.

Mr. Senator. No; let’s see. No; I saw him, I think the first time I saw him was, it may have been, I would say within the week. I can’t name a date or a day. But I will say within the week after the Ruby shooting up at the Carousel. That is about the best that I can recollect on that.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall talking to Little Lynn at any time on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23, or 24?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t even see her.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know her husband?

Mr. Senator. No; but I have seen him—if it is her husband—sort of a blond. I will tell you where I have seen him. I saw him the day of that trial when she was carrying that gun, he come up with her, if it is her husband or if it is her boy friend, I don’t know what.

The reason I say that, because to the best of my knowledge I don’t even know if she wore a marriage band. But I have seen him. I think he is sort of a blondish-haired fellow. I don’t even know his name. I am through with this. Do you want the next page, page 6?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. Senator. There is a Joe Slayton here. Of course, Joe Slayton—this Joe Slayton, I know him by sight but I don’t know him by conversation. Wally Weston, he was an MC of his. I know this guy only by reading about him, Earl Wilson, the New York Post. I don’t know him. I believe this Tony Turner here, this name is a stripper.

Mr. Griffin. T-o-n-i?

Mr. Senator. T-o-n-y it says here.

Mr. Griffin. You think that is a stripper?

Mr. Senator. Tony Turner is T-o-n-i. I think that is how she spells her name. This says Tony, T-o-n-y, Turner. It could be a man. I don’t know. I am only guessing at this one here. Tammi True. I know her. This is a stripper. Then there is Kay here. I don’t know if that is Kathy Kay, or what it is. That is all I know on this one. One here says Porter. I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means, if that is a porter, or what it is.

Mr. Griffin. I don’t know, either. How about page 7? Let me just read off the names and see if you recognize them. Phil Olian?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Wendy Knight?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Wanda?

Mr. Senator. Just a girl’s name?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I think, I am not sure now; I think he had a cocktail waitress by the name of Wanda, if I am not mistaken, at one time. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Janice Anderson

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Ann Petta?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. L. H. McIntyre?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Jim Brown?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Carlos Camorgo?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know of any acquaintances Jack had in Mexico City?

Mr. Senator. Where?

Mr. Griffin. In Mexico City. Did you know of any acquaintances he had in Mexico City?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know of any trips that Jack took?

Mr. Senator. To Mexico City?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Not while I knew him.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know of any foreign trips that he has taken?

Mr. Senator. No, but I have heard at some time that he went to Cuba. Now, that is before my relation with him.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear this from Jack?

Mr. Senator. No. I have heard it, I don’t know if I read it in the newspapers or where I read it, but I know I heard it at one time.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack ever talk to you about Cuba at all?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. How about someone named Billie?

Mr. Senator. B-i-l-l-i-e?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Is that a man or a woman?

Mr. Griffin. I don’t know.

Mr. Senator. Is there a telephone number?

Mr. Griffin. FE 9-7914? Toni Rebel?

Mr. Senator. I think that is a stripper.

Mr. Griffin. Bill Towney? Bill Towney, WH 2-8129?

Mr. Senator. Bill Towney?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Shirley Nole?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Margo?

Mr. Senator. Let me place this Margo. This is a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is here. It is a cocktail waitress that he had at one time.

Mr. Griffin. Kitty Keel?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Mary Martin?

Mr. Senator. It sounds like the one from Hollywood. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Ethel A. Piersol?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Gail Thompson?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Sam George?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Margie?

Mr. Senator. Margie was a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is the same one.

Mr. Griffin. Peggy Steel?

Mr. Senator. Peggy Steel was a stripper that he had at one time.

Mr. Griffin. John M. Crawford?

Mr. Senator. Don’t know him.

Mr. Griffin. This man has an address, Huntsville State Penitentiary.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear of any friends Jack had there?

Mr. Senator. No, and I don’t want to hear of them.

Mr. Griffin. Linda?

Mr. Senator. I think Linda could have been a cocktail waitress.

Mr. Griffin. Avrum?

Mr. Senator. Never heard of that name.

Mr. Griffin. Sherry?

Mr. Senator. I am trying to figure if Sherry was a stripper. I am not sure. I can’t make it.

Mr. Griffin. Henry Segel? This man is from Chicago.

Mr. Senator. I wouldn’t know him.

Mr. Griffin. Roy Pike?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Mickey Ryan?

Mr. Senator. Mickey Ryan, I know Mickey Ryan. Of course, Mickey Ryan lives in California. He is in California. Mickey Ryan used to sell cars, and he worked, the last job I think he worked at, he worked at a club for a while.

Mr. Griffin. In Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes, a private club.

Mr. Griffin. You say he is in California or from California?

Mr. Senator. From California, and back there. He is back in California.

Mr. Griffin. But he was in Dallas at the time that the President was shot?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if he was, before or after. No, I don’t really know. He may have been, now. I think he was after.

Mr. Griffin. How did he happen to return to California?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. He said he was going back to California. I met him one day, and he said he was going back to California. Now, why, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did you meet him before you went to New York to live with your sister?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure; yes. I never same him after I come back. I saw him last year. It could have been, it may have been November or December. I think it may have been December.

Mr. Griffin. So some time after——

Mr. Senator. I think the last time I saw him was after the incident, if I remember right.

Mr. Griffin. And at that time, and this was before you left New York to live with your sister?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Or left Dallas to live with your sister?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I think it was in December the last time I saw him.

Mr. Griffin. He told you at that time he was moving to California?

Mr. Senator. He said he was going back to California.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you why?

Mr. Senator. No; no particular reason why.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what acquaintanceship or relationship he had with Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. As a friend.

Mr. Griffin. Did they have any business dealings?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ever work for Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. He may have helped him a little bit. Now, I am not sure. I think he helped him for a very short while in the Carousel, if I remember, but it was a very short while. Now, how long it was, I don’t know. It was just a short while, though, I think he helped him.

Mr. Griffin. Lisa Starling?

Mr. Senator. I knew a girl by the name of Lisa, and I can’t place it. I am not familiar with the last name. I am trying to figure who, a Lisa I knew. Now, I knew a Lisa Lynn. Lisa Land I think it was.

Mr. Griffin. But Gail Hall, Monroe, La.?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know her.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack ever talk about any friends he had in Louisiana?

Mr. Senator. Gail Hall?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Is there a city?

Mr. Griffin. Monroe, La.

Mr. Senator. I have heard him mention Monroe, La.

Mr. Griffin. In what connection have you heard him mention Monroe?

Mr. Senator. I think he met a girl once in Dallas that came from Monroe. Now, if this is the girl or not, I am not sure. I think he met a girl. I am not sure if he met her at the club, or where it was.

Mr. Griffin. What about H. G. Tiger?

Mr. Senator. Tiger?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. E. Fletcher, F-l-e-t-c-h-e-r?

Mr. Senator. E. Fletcher?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Is there an address or something?

Mr. Griffin. 40 Central Park, something or other.

Mr. Senator. 40 Central Park?

Mr. Griffin. Central Park, and I don’t know what.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. There is a fellow I knew by the name of Ernie Fletcher. I don’t know E. Fletcher.

Mr. Griffin. Is that a friend of Jack Ruby? Does he know Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I mean, I have never seen him with Jack.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know him in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. I knew him in Dallas, yes. I have seen him in Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. What did he do?

Mr. Senator. I haven’t seen him in a long, long time, because the last I heard, I think he was living in New York.

Mr. Griffin. What did he do?

Mr. Senator. I never knew what he did. He was a promoter, but what, I don’t know. I think he was an oil promoter or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Darrell Williams?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now, on page 9 of this particular notebook that we have been looking at, there is the name Vivian, Statler Barbershop.

Mr. Senator. Yes; there is a manicurist there by the name of Vivian.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack frequent the Statler Barbershop?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. The barbershop he frequented the most was a place in another section of town.

Mr. Griffin. Where was that?

Mr. Senator. Loma Alto.

Mr. Griffin. It may have been called the Loma Alto?

Mr. Senator. Yes; it is two words, the Loma Alto section.

Mr. Griffin. What general part of Dallas is that, northeast, southwest, Love Field?

Mr. Senator. Let me say it was on the way up to that way, Love Field.

Mr. Griffin. Towards Love Field from downtown Dallas?

Mr. Senator. From downtown. I tell you, the best way I can describe it to you is it ran off of—I have got a good memory, haven’t I? You are writing that down, too? I can’t think of the name of the street. I’ll tell you why he went to this barbershop, which I never knew.

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. Senator. When the barber cuts his hair, he doesn’t like clippers. He won’t let them use a clipper. He wants everything by hand, and he could probably drive a barber crazy the way he wants his hair cut. To my knowledge, I don’t think he lets a barber shave. You know how the barber shaves you back here?

Mr. Griffin. He won’t let him shave the back of his neck?

Mr. Senator. You know why? I’ll tell you why. Because he grows hair too fast.

Mr. Griffin. This is what Jack told you, that your hair grows too fast when it is shaved off?

Mr. Senator. Yes; you know how some of the hairs will grow in the rear of a person, like mine, I have got a few, the barber will shave them off. He wants them clipped off.

Mr. Griffin. So he requires the back of his neck to be clipped rather than shaved?

Mr. Senator. Yes; now, he has got a barber, he has got this barber who knows just what to do with him.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack concerned about baldness?

Mr. Senator. Oh, you should only know.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us.

Mr. Senator. He used to drive me crazy.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us about that.

Mr. Senator. Well, he would have these treatments. I don’t know the name of the place where he got these treatments, and he had the stuff, you know, they’d rub into his head, whatever this medication. I don’t know what the stuff was, you know.

I have always seen him use it, whatever it was, and he would rub it into his head. He spent 45 minutes under a shower when he was really working with the stuff, and he would rub it into his head. He was always combing his hair all the time, what little was left, but he couldn’t stand being bald.

He used to comment, “How does my hair look; how does my hair look?”. And it was really funny. I used to laugh, but he would get mad when I laughed at him. But he was very, very particular about his hair.

Mr. Griffin. Had he been this way all the time that you knew him, or was this something that had come on?

Mr. Senator. No; this is, of course, as long as, you knew, as long as I have known him. Actually, I can’t say as long as I have known him, but as long as I have been around him. Oh, man.

Mr. Griffin. And he actually had some treatments for his hair, didn’t he?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure, sure.

Mr. Griffin. Were these called trichology treatments, or something like that?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know the nature of the word they used.

Mr. Griffin. Did he go to some practitioner?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who worked on his head?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he went to somebody, he actually went. And I believe he picked up all his medication from him, too. They came in plastic tubes, a little vial like. I would probably say these tubes would hold approximately maybe about half a pint. He had two different types whatever they were; one was wash and one was rinse, or what it was.

Mr. Griffin. And he would use these on his head?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And was this a daily thing that he did?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have any particular ritual, any period of time of the day that he would do this?

Mr. Senator. No; it was just whatever time, not particularly. It could be in the morning, but I would say it was about every day, once a day some time, you know.

Mr. Griffin. So when you told us yesterday, I believe it was, that Jack would spend 45 minutes in the bathroom, or something like that, he was very slow getting up in the morning, was this part of the procedure?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if he did it that day or not. I don’t remember if he did it that way, but I tell you, when he gets in the bathroom when he is going through the entire ritual, he takes longer than a woman.

Mr. Griffin. Part of this ritual would involve this scalp treatment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Hair treatment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What else was involved in the ritual?

Mr. Senator. Well, of course, the door was closed, you know. I am not actually watching him. Of course, the shave and the shower.

Mr. Griffin. Did he shower every day?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; sure. I will tell you when he really did his big cleaning up was at night, before going to work. That was when the big ritual was, he spent a big time in there. But it was really something.

Mr. Griffin. The next one I am going to hand you is Exhibit 5204. This was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I don’t believe there are any other marks on here. I am going to ask you to look at this notebook, or rather, the Xerox pages of a notebook, and ask you, first of all, generally if you recognize that notebook?

Let me say that the notebook, if you will turn to the first page of all those papers that are put together, and look at that first page carefully, you will see that the notebook had written on the cover just the word “Addresses,” and, of course, we can’t tell from what color the notebook was or what material it was made out of, how it was bound, although it appears to be not a looseleaf kind of notebook but one that was perhaps stitched at the back or something.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you ever recall anything like that?

Mr. Senator. I know he had two or three of those little things. Like I told you before, I knew he had two or three of them.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize the handwriting in this particular notebook?

Mr. Senator. I assume it is Jack’s.

Mr. Griffin. But you don’t actually recognize it as Jack’s?

Mr. Senator. I am not sure, but I assume it is Jack’s. To me they sort of all look like the same handwriting, so I assume they are his.

Mr. Griffin. Now, look at the first page that has writing on it, which actually in this exhibit is numbered page 2, and tell us, do you recognize any of the names there?

Mr. Senator. There is one here, and the reason I recognize this name here, Patricia Stevens, because Patricia Stevens I think is a modeling school.

Mr. Griffin. In Dallas?

Mr. Senator. In Dallas?

Mr. Griffin. And did Jack deal with that modeling school?

Mr. Senator. Not that I know of. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t recognize that name through any association you had with Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. No. That is the only way I would recognize the name.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize any other names on that page?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Turn to the next page, which is page 3, and tell us if you recognize any of the names there.

Mr. Senator. There is a name here I am not sure of, but it says Thelma Brown. This could be a singer. I am not sure. Or Bertha Brown. I know there is a girl by the name of Brown who was a colored girl, who was a singer, and she has come pretty well up the line. Now, if this is the girl or not, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did she sing for Jack?

Mr. Senator. A long, long time ago when she was smaller. Now she is big-time. Now, where she is singing I don’t know. I don’t know if that is her first name, but I know there was a girl by the name of Brown. I don’t know if it was Thelma Brown, Bertha Brown, or whatever it is. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize any other names on page 3?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Turn to page 4 and tell us if you recognize any of the names there.

Mr. Senator. Ed Bernet. I have heard that name, but I don’t know what it is. I can’t make out what it is. It sounds like an entertainer, but I am not sure. The others I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t recognize any other names on that page?

Mr. Senator. No. There is only one other name there.

Mr. Griffin. Turn to the next page. Is that page 5?

Mr. Senator. Yes; and I don’t know who that is. It is just one name.

Mr. Griffin. What name is that?

Mr. Senator. Bill Capehart. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. Griffin. Do you want to turn to page 6?

Mr. Senator. Bob Eisman.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know who he is. There is nothing else but the name.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Do you want to turn to the next page, page 7. Do you recognize that name, Ham Faust?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Page 8; do you recognize the name there?

Mr. Senator. This boy here, he is resting in peace.

Mr. Griffin. Martin Gimpel?

Mr. Senator. He died of a heart attack.

Mr. Griffin. When did he die?

Mr. Senator. He died, I would say, I would probably say a year and a half ago, which tore Jack apart because they were kids together all their life.

Mr. Griffin. From Chicago?

Mr. Senator. Yes. He has been gone now about a year and a half, maybe 2 years, I am not sure, something like that. Now, the other name I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Ann Gibson. What was Jack’s relationship in Dallas with Mr. Gimpel?

Mr. Senator. He was a tool salesman. He traveled. He sold tools. Now, I have never seen him sell them.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what kind of tools, household tools or industrial tools?

Mr. Senator. No. I think they were industrial tools. To my knowledge, I think that is what it was.

Mr. Griffin. Did Mr. Gimpel have a family in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Was he single?

Mr. Senator. When he came here, he didn’t always stay here. I mean, I haven’t known him that long, when I met him, but when he was here, I don’t know how long he stayed. He stayed, and traveled. But in this area, or rather in the Dallas area, or wherever he was traveling, I don’t know if it was in the State of Texas or out of it, or just where he traveled. Of course, he stayed with Jack because he didn’t pay no rent.

Mr. Griffin. Jack supported him?

Mr. Senator. Jack, you know.

Mr. Griffin. Page 9.

Mr. Senator. There is a name here that I think is an entertainer. I am not sure, Trinidad, Colo. Wait a minute; that is Trinidad, Colo., but I knew somebody by the name of Trinidad. There was an entertainer. Cecil Hamlin.

Mr. Griffin. Who is he?

Mr. Senator. He is with the union. Now, what capacity or what, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Which union?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know which union.

Mr. Griffin. Was he friendly with Jack?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know, because I have only seen the man one time in my life, and the time that I saw him I was introduced to him, not knowing who he was, down at the courthouse, at the courthouse.

Mr. Griffin. Was that at the trial or the bail bond hearing, or something like that?

Mr. Senator. It was at this trial here, in the lobby.

Mr. Griffin. The Ruby trial?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I saw him in the lobby once. That is the only time I ever seen the man.

Mr. Griffin. But you had never seen him before?

Mr. Senator. No; I had never seen him.

Mr. Griffin. And you had never heard Jack speak of him?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I have heard the name.

Mr. Griffin. How had you heard Jack speak of him?

Mr. Senator. Jack has asked me to call him.

Mr. Griffin. In what connection?

Mr. Senator. There was somebody, there were a couple of people owed Jack some money, and he asked me to ask Cecil to see if Cecil would call them to get the money or pick up the money. He had a couple of hundred dollars out, and he wanted to ask him if he would be kind enough to collect it for him or try to collect it for him, or call them up, or something of that nature. I don’t know the rest of them. Page 10.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize any of the names on page 10?

Mr. Senator. I think he had a stripper, a part-time stripper, at one time, I am not sure. Of course, I don’t know if this is, but this says Grapevine.

Mr. Griffin. Grapevine, Tex.?

Mr. Senator. Yes; but I don’t know. A girl by the name of Linda, but I never knew her last name, so I don’t know if this is her or not.

Mr. Griffin. Page 11.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know who this is. I have seen this name before on other pages, Jeanie. I don’t know what that is.

Mr. Griffin. Page 12.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. Griffin. Page 13.

Mr. Senator. Latin Band, is that what that says?

Mr. Griffin. It looks like that.

Mr. Senator. I am thinking of Larry, the kid who works at the club, but what would the Latin Band be? I don’t know who that is. I don’t know who this is.

Mr. Griffin. Page 14.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Page 15.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. Griffin. This doesn’t have a page number.

Mr. Senator. This is a repeat of the other.

Mr. Griffin. A duplicate of the previous page?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t say it is a duplicate of the page, but the name.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s read the name so that the record is complete. Pat Sancipian, Patricia Stevens. Xavier Cugat?

Mr. Senator. I know the name. Who don’t know it?

Mr. Griffin. Jack never talked to you about him?

Mr. Senator. No; where he got it, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Turning to another page, which doesn’t have a number on it, Sam Schwartz.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. Griffin. Robyn Hoy Smith, Tom Teel?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. Griffin. And turning to the last page, which is numbered 20, it simply says Elizabeth. You don’t recognize that name?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you another book that is marked Exhibit 5202, which was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and it is a blue spiral notebook with the word “Penway” written on the front. It is called a “Penway Memo Book.” Look through that.