Thursday, March 19, 1964 TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on March 19, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.

Mr. McCloy. Mrs. Paine, I must remind you that you are still under affirmation. We don't take a new affirmation with each hearing.

Mr. Jenner. We had concluded, if you recall, the 15-day period in May that Mrs. Oswald resided at the home of Mrs. Paine.

Would you please describe for us the items of household furniture, or whatever the articles were, that were packed in your station wagon when you took Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. We packed in a play pen and crib. I recall a stroller, some kitchen utensils, and personal clothing for herself and the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any luggage of any character?

Mrs. Paine. There may have been a small suitcase but I don't recall it specifically.

Mr. Jenner. You do not?

Mrs. Paine. I am just guessing.

Mr. Jenner. As I recall you have told us yesterday that when you arrived in New Orleans, you went by the Murrets' home first?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And then from the Murrets' home to the apartment at, what was that address on Magazine Street?

Mrs. Paine. 4907.

Mr. Jenner. That was 4907 rather than 4905.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, there has been a touch of testimony, at least of the possibility that Mr. Oswald may have dry-fired or dry-sighted any rifle in the courtyard or garden space at 4907?

Would you be good enough to draw for us free hand the layout, at least the ground layout of the 4907 premises on Magazine Street in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Now, shall I describe this?

Mr. Jenner. Could I first show the diagram. I have marked the diagram the witness has drawn as Commission Exhibit No. 403.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, might it be helpful and permissible if I had the witness stand to your rear and point to the diagram so that you might follow her testimony?

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mrs. Paine. This street is Magazine Street; it is a corner house.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, left on your plot is east and west and up and down are north and south?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is the way I recall it. This is a corner house and there was room enough——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, I have to keep the record. You are referring now to a square on the right-hand margin of your outline.

Mrs. Paine. Between this house, and the courtyard and house where the Oswalds were staying, there was room enough to drive a car.

Mr. Jenner. Have you marked the courtyard with that word?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have written "courtyard" in the sort of an "L" shaped space that you have indicated on the plot, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. This is a square space cut by a walk.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. This was a low fence.

Mr. Jenner. When you say this, it does not help us on the record; what is this to which you have pointed—you have written something across it?

Mrs. Paine. Around this courtyard and in front of the house was a low metal picket fence.

Mr. Jenner. That you have so designated?

Mrs. Paine. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. There was grass within this small courtyard or walk, steps——

Mr. Jenner. Which you have also marked "walk"?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Steps going up.

Mr. Jenner. Which you have likewise so marked?

Mrs. Paine. To a screened porch.

Mr. Jenner. Likewise so marked?

Mrs. Paine. And then the doorway from the porch goes into the living room.

Mr. Jenner. And the living room is marked "Living room." Would you use those names and those designations as you testify?

Mrs. Paine. All right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please indicate the courtyard or square or oblong portion you have marked, rectangular portion, that was open space, was it, it was not roofed?

Mrs. Paine. It was fully open.

Mr. Jenner. It was fully open, and it faced out on Magazine Street?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And was there open space to the east, that would be toward the building, which you have merely designated as an empty square?

Mrs. Paine. I will write in here "driveway;" this was open here as a driveway.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is that what you have now marked a building, a dwelling?

Mrs. Paine. It was a dwelling.

Mr. Jenner. Were there dwellings to the south of Magazine Street and on the opposite side of the street?

Mrs. Paine. That so far as I recall, that is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. What was to the east in the way of dwellings or buildings?

Mrs. Paine. The rest of the house; they lived in a portion; entered from the side door of a large house; I assume it was once a one-family dwelling.

Mr. Jenner. Then for our purpose here as far as the courtyard is concerned on the east it was—there was a walk?

Mrs. Paine. A building.

Mr. Jenner. West, I am sorry. On the west line of the courtyard there was a walk?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. On the north of the courtyard there was the screened porch and to the east, but with intervening driveway there was a dwelling house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then the courtyard was open on Magazine Street?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Does your recollection serve you that anybody standing in the courtyard and dry-sighting a rifle would be visible to people who just happened by, or who would be looking out a window on the south side of Magazine Street, or in the home or in the dwelling house to the east of the courtyard?

Mrs. Paine. He would have been very visible. Would have collected a clutch of small boys.

Mr. Jenner. This was a neighborhood, then, in which there were small children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a reasonably busy street?

Mrs. Paine. Very busy street.

Mr. Jenner. What were the days of the week that you were there when you returned, when you brought Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. When we first went down, we arrived on Saturday, I was there Sunday and Monday and left Tuesday morning.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Does your recollection serve so that you can state that the days you were there you observed during the daytime, at least many or a reasonable number of small children and mothers and fathers, in and about the neighborhood?

Mrs. Paine. A good many small children and adults.

Mr. Jenner. Was that likewise true when you returned in September about which you will testify in a few moments?

Mrs. Paine. That was certainly true in September.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 403, a plot which Mrs. Paine has just drawn and which is so marked.

Mr. McCloy. So received.

(The diagram referred to heretofore, marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for identification, was received in evidence.)

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Was the dwelling in which the Oswalds were residing, 4907 Magazine Street, a single level or a double level house?

Mrs. Paine. It was all on the ground floor.

Mr. Jenner. It was a one-story house, one story high?

Mrs. Paine. It was a segment of a house that probably had two stories to it. I don't recall. But the segment they had was all on one level.

Mr. Jenner. And that was the ground level?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibit No. 403, and Mr. Dulles, would you favor me by handing her the exhibit, and with particular reference to the screen porch, the screen porch likewise opened up on Magazine Street, did it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was set back a short space from the street, but the door opened up toward Magazine.

Mr. Jenner. The screened portion, that is, that faced on Magazine Street?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. If anyone were on the screen porch, let us say, dry-sighting a rifle or some other firearm, would he be, would that person be observable from Magazine Street, and from the east?

Mrs. Paine. I doubt he would have been noticed from Magazine Street. A small boy passing in the driveway could have looked through the screen, up to the——

Mr. Jenner. That is to the east?

Mrs. Paine. I will mark "screen" on the south and east side so you know it is screened on both sides.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall for certainty but there may have been a kind of shade that could have been put down. It was not when I was there, down, but there may have been some means of——

Mr. Jenner. Lattice shade?

Mrs. Paine. Putting down a lattice blind.

Mr. Jenner. A blind or something?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of course, if the blind were down no one could see it. Did you have occasion when you were there, Mrs. Paine, on either of your two trips to be on the screen porch?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And looking out?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was there any impediment to your view?

Mrs. Paine. No, I could see the street very well.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion there on either of those occasions to be out in the courtyard or on the street to be looking into the porch area.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Could you see the persons, from the courtyard, could you see persons behind the screen?

Mrs. Paine. From the courtyard you could see persons behind the screen.

Mr. Jenner. Do I take it then by your emphasis on courtyard, do you mean by that if you were on Magazine Street itself, that is the sidewalk in front of the home it would be difficult to see in?

Mrs. Paine. Looking directly in you would notice someone but just passing by you would not have been apt to see them.

Mr. Jenner. But if you looked directly you could see in on the porch?

Mrs. Paine. I think so; yes.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned yesterday a series of letters and correspondence and you spent some time with me last night and we went over all that, do you recall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have your summary we worked with last night at hand to assist you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you mind taking that out, please?

You mentioned yesterday in your testimony a note that you had sent to Marina Oswald shortly after your initial acquaintance with her in February of 1963. Did you receive a response to that note?

Mrs. Paine. I did; and I have that response.

Mr. Jenner. I have here a document which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 404, including its envelope as 404A.

Is that the document or note you received from Mrs. Oswald and the envelope?

(The document and envelope referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404A, respectively, for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Did that reach you in the ordinary course of its posting by mail?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I am now.

Mr. Jenner. Is that—do you identify the handwriting in that document 404?

Mrs. Paine. That is her handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. That is hers.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And that is her response to your note?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 404 the document now so marked.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The letter and envelope referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404-A, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, that is in what language?

Mrs. Paine. That is in Russian. Except for the address on the outside.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Have you made a translation of that note?

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. And is it the translation on the notes that you exhibited to me last night which we have marked as No. 1?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, if you would prefer that I read the translation in evidence or may we have it——

Mr. McCloy. It is a short note?

Mr. Jenner. It is a short note. Others are a little longer, however, and if I have your permission, to save you time, I would read that into the record during the noon recess or something of that character.

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mr. Jenner. Is that acceptable.

Now, did you thereafter—you wrote Mrs. Oswald at or about that time in response to that note of yours, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. No. Let's see—I don't recall whether I did or not or whether I arrived on the Tuesday that she had suggested.

Mr. Jenner. I have a little difficulty in handling these, Mr. Chairman, because they are in Russian, and I don't immediately have a vision of it.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. I am handing you a document which I have numbered as No. 2.

Would you locate that for me on your summary?

Mrs. Paine. I have it.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the second page?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That note also in Russian but in whose handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. In my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And that is a draft, I take it, of a letter or note that you transmitted to Mrs. Oswald.

Would you identify in your sheaf of notes the point at which you made a translation of that note?

Mrs. Paine. When did I make a translation of it? I didn't understand your question.

Mr. Jenner. Would you point out in your notes the translation of the document? Is that the center of the page on page 2?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is the document which I will have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 405 in your handwriting?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Is it in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; being, of course, a rough draft of what I sent and not what I sent.

Mr. Jenner. You do not have the original of that because you sent it to Marina Oswald, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. But it does represent your present best recollection of the note as you transmitted it to her?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. This note is without a date. Shall I give my recollection of when I think it was written?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; please.

Mrs. Paine. I think it was written in March and referred to—it closes, "Until the 20th." I believe that referred to Wednesday, March 20, which is what appears here with the name Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Which is what you testified to yesterday, and when you say "appears here" you meant Exhibit 401?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence the original document which has now been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 405.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. I will read the translation in the record during the noon recess. You shortly transmitted another letter of your own to Mrs. Oswald, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And I have here a document which I have marked Commission Exhibit No. 406. Is this a draft of the letter in your handwriting?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And did you shortly after the completion of that draft retranscribe it and transmit the letter to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you made a translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Is the draft of that document in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where is that document transcribed on your notes?

Mrs. Paine. That is at the top of page 2.

Mr. Jenner. That is what we call No. 3, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. And dated March 26.

Mr. Jenner. This, Mr. Chairman, is her note to which she testified yesterday was an invitation to the Oswalds to dinner at her home on April 2.

Mrs. Paine. It appears—the following invitation is a full explanation of it. I believe I had made the explanation in person. This letter was to say that Michael would come and pick them up.

Mr. Jenner. This was confirmation of your original invitation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; this was that Michael could pick them up.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence a document marked Commission Exhibit No. 406.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive from Marina herself a note with respect to your invitation to have her and her husband join you?

Mrs. Paine. I have a note which I take to be a reply to that invitation, saying that that date, Tuesday, would be fine.

Mr. Jenner. And I hand you Commission Document No. 407.

Is that the note you received from Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 407 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Have you made—is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. I have no envelope anymore. I don't know what happened to it.

Mr. Jenner. Is the note itself in the same condition as it was at the time you received it?

Mrs. Paine. No. I have written on it in my hand to help me understand the meaning of it, some pen notations, translation of the Russian words.

Mr. Jenner. I am interested in that, Mrs. Paine.

Did you also—are there some additions in your handwriting on the first page of the note?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, marked one, two, three, four and clearly taken from a dictionary.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you do that?

Mrs. Paine. To explain to myself the meaning of these particular words. I had to look them up.

Mr. Jenner. Is it a fair statement, Mrs. Paine, that your command of the Russian language was not facile enough for you to read the total letter freehand, as soon as you received it, but you wrote on the letter definitions of words and of phrases to assist you in interpreting it?

Mrs. Paine. That is a fair statement.

Mr. Jenner. Were all the notations you have now identified placed by you on that letter shortly after you received it, or in the course of your effort to interpret it?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, save for those additions of yours, is the document in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And is it otherwise in the same condition as it was when you placed those notes on it?

In other words, there have been no notes of your own placed on the document subsequent to, at, or about the time you received it when you were attempting to interpret it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you first said, or when I was translating it.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I translated it immediately for myself at the time, and then when I made a written translation I made a more careful one so that some of these notes were done a week ago.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I was getting at.

Would you please, for the Commission identify the particular notes that you placed on there at the time you were seeking to interpret it when you first received it, and the notes you placed on there about a week ago, and indicate the pages.

Mrs. Paine. I can easily answer that.

There is only one that was placed more recently. That is an underline on the inside.

Mr. Jenner. Right-hand inside page?

Mrs. Paine. Right-hand side.

Mr. Jenner. Is it merely an underlining?

Mrs. Paine. Underline and a question mark.

Mr. Jenner. And would you interpret that for us, please?

Mrs. Paine. I couldn't read her handwriting, but later realized the word to be "if."

Mr. Jenner. When you were seeking to interpret it a week ago to translate it, you placed a question mark over that word because you couldn't quite figure it out?

Mrs. Paine. And then later realized what it was.

Mr. Jenner. As being the word "if"?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that, Mrs. Paine, is the document in the condition it was when you received it and when you initially placed notations on it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. Have you made a translation for the Commission of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And that appears in your notes at page what?

Mrs. Paine. The first page at the bottom.

Mr. Jenner. Which I have marked No. 4, I believe, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Beginning "For Ruth and Michael Paine."

Mr. Jenner. Does your interpretation or translation of the letter represent your impressions of the letter when you read it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that is true, is it, of the other translations which we will introduce through you today? Is that true of all your translations?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sure of what you are inquiring.

Mr. Jenner. What I am inquiring about, others—as you related to me last night—other persons with the command of the Russian language.

Mrs. Paine. I had no help with the translations.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Other persons with their command of the Russian language might read one of Marina's letters and have at least, as to some words, an interpretation different from yours. What I am saying——

Mrs. Paine. In a minor regard, yes.

Mr. Jenner. It may be?

Mrs. Paine. But I believe the meaning would have been the same.

Mr. Jenner. But it is important to get your impressions, Mrs. Paine, of Marina's letters to you, despite what interpretations some other people might give to the same letter, and what I am seeking to emphasize is whether your translations are your impressions of those letters?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; but they are good translations.

Mr. Jenner. I don't mean to question that. We seek the impact of these notes upon you.

Mrs. Paine. I see. This is exactly what I understood them to mean, of course.

Mr. Jenner. That is fine.

Now, you received in May or on or about May, or shortly after May 25, 1963, another note from Marina Oswald, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. This was postmarked May 25.

Mr. Jenner. After you had taken her to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. This was the first letter I received from her from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. And you have kindly produced the original of that letter for the Commission, have you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. I am sorry, I have to have your answer aloud or I can't get it on the record.

The document you have produced is marked Commission Exhibit 408.

Do you recognize the handwriting of that note and of that envelope?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 408 for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. This is the handwriting of Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Both documents?

Mrs. Paine. On both.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive—that is a letter, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. That is a letter.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Is it on or about, did you receive it on or about the date it is postmarked?

Mrs. Paine. Shortly after, I would guess.

Mr. Jenner. I can see some handwriting written horizontally on the back of the envelope, is that handwriting yours or Marina's?

Mrs. Paine. That is mine.

Mr. Jenner. When did you place that handwriting on the reverse side?

Mrs. Paine. When I first read the letter and sought to understand it.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

And those notations are in Russian or in English?

Mrs. Paine. A word is given in Russian followed by a translation in English.

Mr. Jenner. As in the case of one of the earlier exhibits, did you place those notations on the reverse side of the envelope at the time you received the letter in the course of your attempting to interpret the letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And those notations were in the course of your doing that. Except for the notations on the reverse side of the envelope, is the letter and is the envelope, each in the same condition now as when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. No; I have made a few underlinings.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify any additions you placed on the original document, indicating the page, front or reverse side?

Mrs. Paine. I have marked "bind"——

Mr. Jenner. Is that b-i-n-d?

Mrs. Paine. Over one word.

Mr. Jenner. Have you written the word "bind"? Is that what you mean?

Mrs. Paine. B-i-n-d.

Mr. Jenner. And that is an interpretation, I take it of a word written in Russian underneath it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that word then to you in English was "bind", b-i-n-d.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. I have written the word "thaw" and crossed it out; that was wrong.

Mr. Jenner. Meaning what, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I had the wrong translation for that word. I realized it later.

Mr. Jenner. What was the word rather than——

Mrs. Paine. The meaning was "insists"; the rest of the markings by me are underlinings.

Mr. Jenner. I will cover those by asking you this. Were there any underlinings on the letter placed there by Marina Oswald at the time you received the letter?

Mrs. Paine. Only one, under this word here.

Mr. Jenner. That is on the reverse side of the second page of the letter?

Mrs. Paine. It is on the last page. The second page; yes.

Mr. Jenner. It is the reverse side of the second sheet of paper?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And it looks to help from her as though it is an arrow, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. There is an underline and then from the underlined word is an arrow.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408 the documents now so marked and identified by the witness.

Mr. McCloy. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you retain that for a moment, please?

Mr. Dulles. May I ask, is the envelope 408A attached?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and in the case of the earlier exhibit the envelope——

Mrs. Paine. It is only the second envelope we have had.

Mr. Jenner. The envelope accompanying Exhibit 404 was marked 404A, and the envelope now accompanying 408 is marked 408A.

Mr. McCloy. Is it so marked now?

Mr. Dulles. Do you wish me to mark it?

(The enevelope was marked Commission Exhibit 408A for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission, Mrs. Paine, with your translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I have.

Mr. Jenner. And your interpretation and the effect or the impression that you had of that letter when you received it and as you read it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, turning to the first page, I would like to direct attention——

Mr. Dulles. Do you wish this back?

Mrs. Paine. No; I will look at the translation.

Mr. Jenner. She has supplied me with an interpretation. In the first paragraph it reads and I quote, and you follow me, please. I will read the whole paragraph:

"Here it is already a week since I received your letter. I can't produce any excuses as there are no valid reasons. I am ashamed to confess that I am a person of moods and my mood currently is such that I don't feel much like anything. As soon as you left all love stopped and I am very hurt that Lee's attitude toward me is such that I feel each minute that I bind him. He insists that I leave America which I don't want to do at all. I like America very much and I think that even without Lee I would not be lost here. What do you think?"

Had you had any discussion with Marina when you were in New Orleans on the subject matters which I have just read to you from the first paragraph of her letter, Commission Exhibit No. 408?

Mrs. Paine. There was no such discussion in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. What impact did this have on you, Mrs. Paine, when you received this letter and read that first paragraph?

Mrs. Paine. It was a repetition, or similar to something she had told me late in March, which I have already put on the record yesterday, saying basically that he wanted her to go back, wanted to send her back to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. And to send her back alone, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That was the impression I carried.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever any occassion, during all your acquaintance with the Oswalds, when there was any suggestion or implication that if she returned to Russia, at his request, that he would accompany her?

Mrs. Paine. There was no such suggestion.

Mr. Jenner. Was it always that she was to go to Russia alone?

Mrs. Paine. As she described it, it carried from her the feeling that she was being sent away.

Mr. Jenner. What about the little child, June?

Mrs. Paine. June with her.

Mr. Jenner. Was to accompany her to Russia. Now, the second paragraph, if I may:

"This is the basic question which doesn't leave me day or night. And again Lee has said to me that he doesn't love me. So you see we came to mistaken conclusions. It is hard for you and me to live without a return of our love interest gone. How would it all end?"

Had there been discussions between you and Marina Oswald on the subject of whether or not her husband had love for her, and in that area?

Mrs. Paine. What I particularly recall is what I mentioned yesterday, when he telephoned her and said he had found a job and wanted her to come——

Mr. Jenner. This was just before going to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Just before going to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. In the spring?

Mrs. Paine. Right. She said "Papa loves us," as I have testified. She had wondered to me during the 2 weeks previous whether he did, whether she loved him. But was clearly elated by his call and gradually came to her own conclusions. Really, I had no ground upon which to make a conclusion.

Mr. Dulles. She was speaking in Russian then to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were you impressed that this paragraph, however, was not consistent with her immediate response at the time that telephone call had been made to her?

Mrs. Paine. It showed me there was not as much change as she had hoped.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with her on this subject when you were in New Orleans, and when you took her or when you were taking her from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever. When you were in New Orleans, Mrs. Paine, did you tour any night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you or Marina ever evidence any interest in touring Bourbon Street, for example?

Mrs. Paine. You are talking about the spring visit?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I am.

Mrs. Paine. We went to the French Quarter during the day.

Mr. Jenner. Please identify whom you include when you say "we."

Mrs. Paine. Lee, Marina, I, and three children.

Mr. Jenner. Did all of you, including Lee, go to the French Quarter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; we did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you tour the Bourbon Street areas, Royal Street, and the other areas?

Mrs. Paine. No; we did not.

Mr. Jenner. Will you tell us without any length—you did not. This was a tourist visit of the French Quarter, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In the day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With the children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the course of that tourist visit about visiting Bourbon Street at night rather than in the daytime?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that there was anything said.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion about Lee Oswald visiting or frequenting night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Either in Dallas, or in New Orleans or in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. None; at any time.

Mr. Jenner. Did any one of you tour Bourbon Street at night during that spring visit?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Any discussion of the subject?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a subsequent occasion when you did visit Bourbon Street at night?

Mrs. Paine. In September, when I visited again in New Orleans. Shall I tell that?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; please, because there is a measure of contrast to that I would like to bring out.

Mrs. Paine. Marina and I and our three small children went down in the early evening and walked along the street.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us how that came about, whether Lee Oswald accompanied you?

Mrs. Paine. He did not accompany us. He was asked if he wanted to go, and he said he did not. Marina was interested in my seeing Bourbon Street at night simply as a tourist attraction.

Mr. Jenner. And you two girls took your children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she take June?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You two girls walked down Bourbon Street?

Mrs. Paine. And one of us very pregnant.

Mr. Jenner. And observed everything from the outside. You didn't go inside any night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. No. In fact, when I realized we weren't permitted, we went on.

Mr. Jenner. You had small children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion with Mr. Oswald at that time or with Marina which led you to form a judgment as to whether he was a man who might, or would, or had frequented night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. I judged he was not such a person.

Mr. Jenner. In all your experiences with the Oswalds from February, sometime in February 1963, even to the present date, had any mention been made of Lee Oswald frequenting night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Or of Marina at any time?

Mrs. Paine. No mention of her.

Mr. Dulles. Did you get the impression when you made this trip that Marina had previously made the trip herself, that she seemed to know the surroundings?

Mrs. Paine. This occurs in the next paragraph of the letter she wrote in May, so I knew she had been herself.

Mr. Dulles. She had been there before?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. From the letter I judge with Lee accompanying her.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, if you will pardon me. Mr. Reporter, will you read the question?

(Question read.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you answer just that question?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. She did answer it.

Mr. Jenner. I didn't think she did.

Mr. Dulles. I think she said "yes."

Mr. Jenner. Now the letter of May 25th to you does make reference to visits to the French Quarter, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Gentlemen of the Commission, that portion of the letter reads as follows:

"Now a bit about the impressions I have received this week. Last Saturday we went to Aunt Lillian's"—Aunt Lillian, Mrs. Paine, is Lee Oswald's aunt?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Murret.

Mr. Jenner. "And leaving June with her we are at the lake. Lee wanted to catch crabs but caught nothing. I have a very high opinion of his relatives."

By the way, what was your opinion of his relatives?

Mrs. Paine. I met them only once. I thought them to be very nice.

Mr. Jenner. "Straightforward and kind people. To me they are very attentive. I like them. We have been to the French Quarter in the evening. It is a shame you didn't manage to get there in the evening. For me it was especially interesting as it was the first time in my life I had seen such. There were many night clubs there. Through the open doors were visible barrel covered dancing girls (so as not to say entirely unclothed). Most of them had really very pretty, rare figures and if one doesn't think about too many things then one can like them very much. There were a great many tourists there. For the most part very rich. We have been to the near park again."

That is all of that paragraph dealing with the nightclubs. Now, did you ever know a man or person by the name of Jack Rubinstein or Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Prior to November 24, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear of any such individual?

Mrs. Paine. No, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Had you frequented a nightclub in Irving or in Dallas prior to November 24, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Not at any time. In either town.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband Michael were not in the habit of visiting, frequenting nightclubs?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It is a fact, is it not, Mrs. Paine that neither you nor Mr. Paine attended nightclubs at all?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is this true prior to your moving to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything that occurred during all these months of your acquaintance with the Oswalds that did or might have led you to any opinion as to Lee's frequenting of nightclubs or his acquaintance with nightclubs or his being intimate with nightclub people?

Mrs. Paine. During the entire time, is that your question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Let us end the day for you for this purpose at November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. He was, I would say, actively disinterested in going down to Bourbon Street in the last weekend in September.

Mr. Jenner. But even prior to that time?

Mrs. Paine. It was the 21st.

Mr. Jenner. Had anything occurred by way of a remark at all that made an impression on you in the area of his being acquainted possibly with any nightclub people, any entertainers?

Mrs. Paine. There had been no hint of any sort that he was acquainted with nightclub people?

Mr. McCloy. Whether in Dallas, New Orleans or Irving?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. Of course, I had not talked to him a great deal up to the New Orleans trip. Then after that time there was also no hint or mention of any nightclub people. After that time in New Orleans he did refuse table wine at my home, so I got the impression of him as a person who didn't like to drink.

Mr. Jenner. During all your acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ever see him take a drink of spirits, intoxicating spirits?

Mrs. Paine. It is possible he had beer at the initial party on the 22d of February, that is as far as I can remember.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have of him as a man of temperance?

Mrs. Paine. He teased Marina about liking wine as if it displeased him mildly.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You are talking in terms of conclusions which is all right with me if you will give me the specifics also. Could you give us an example or an occasion of what you have in mind?

Mrs. Paine. Well, at the same occasion when he refused the wine, she had some.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Did he say something that led you to say he was teasing her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe what that was?

Mrs. Paine. Indicating a mild disapproval.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission your impression of Marina Oswald as a temperate person?

Mrs. Paine. She did not like liquors.

Mr. Jenner. What we would call hard liquor?

Mrs. Paine. Strong spirits.

Mr. Jenner. Strong spirits.

Mrs. Paine. But she did drink beer at my home, and did occasionally have wine.

Mr. Jenner. She occasionally had a bit of wine and she occasionally had some beer?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the extent of, as far as your personal knowledge is concerned, her indulgence in intoxicating spirits?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Does that likewise describe your indulgence or do you——

Mrs. Paine. I would also drink a cocktail on occasion.

Mr. Jenner. But very limited and just an occasional drink?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that likewise true of your husband, Michael?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Did Marina ever drink to excess?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly not that I ever heard about or saw.

Mr. Jenner. Not that you ever heard about or that you saw?

Mrs. Paine. Or saw.

Mr. Jenner. From your testimony that is certainly true with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. It is certainly true of him also.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you are concerned?

Mrs. Paine. As far as I am concerned.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I think you testified yesterday that Marina would assist you in your becoming more proficient in the Russian language by returning letters that you had written her, upon which she would place her comments of instruction or criticism or suggestion?

Mrs. Paine. Before she left for New Orleans in May, she offered to correct and send back any letters I wrote to her. In the correspondence which included some four letters with her altogether, there was only one of mine that was actually corrected and sent back and you have that.

Mr. Jenner. I have marked a three-page document as Commission Exhibit 409, and the envelope as Commission Exhibit 409A, the envelope being postmarked at New Orleans on June 6, 1963, and being addressed to Mrs. Ruth Paine.

Mrs. Paine. Do you want to make a separate designation for my return letter? You are looking at the letter which accompanied her letter.

Mr. Jenner. That document I will mark as Commission Exhibit——may I have permission, Mr. Chairman, to mark this document in my own hand because the sticker, I am afraid, will obliterate some of the letter.

Mr. McCloy. You may.

Mr. Jenner. I will mark this as 409B.

Now, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to identify 409, 409A, and 409B, the sequence in which they passed back and forth between you and Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. It includes, No. 409 is my letter to her dated the 1st of June, which she——

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Is that document, or do you recognize the handwriting on that document?

Mrs. Paine. That is my hand.

Mr. Jenner. Would you turn to the reverse side of the second page, third page. I see there is something on that in red crayon.

Mrs. Paine. All the red marks and the little bit in ballpoint pen are made by her.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I was seeking to bring out.

Mrs. Paine. At the end it includes a note of comments.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, the portion of the letter in blue ink in longhand is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. In my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And the portion of the letter in red crayon on the reverse side of the third page is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Is in her handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. On the first page is there any of her handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. On the first page in blue ink, ballpoint pen there is some handwriting which is hers at the top.

Mr. Jenner. Those are notations in between the lines or in the margin?

Mrs. Paine. Above my writing. Yes; sir.

Mr. Jenner. They are comments of hers on your letter?

Mrs. Paine. And my spelling.

Mr. Jenner. Of your spelling?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do any of those markings appear other than on the face of the first sheet?

Mrs. Paine. In blue ink you are asking?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, I am.

Mrs. Paine. No. The rest is all in red.

Mr. Jenner. That then was a letter that you had sent to her?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Was it returned to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did some document which you now have before you accompany the letter on its return?

Mrs. Paine. Her letter dated June 5th.

Mr. Jenner. Which has been marked Commission Exhibit 409B?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you do recognize that handwriting as having been hers?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Of the two documents you have now identified, 409 and 409B, were they enclosed in an envelope?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they were.

Mr. Jenner. Is that envelope before you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It is marked Commission Exhibit 409A?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Are all those conditions of documents in the condition which they were in when you received them?

Mrs. Paine. I have again added in my hand on her letter.

Mr. Jenner. That is 409B?

Mrs. Paine. Translations of certain of the words.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please, for the purpose of the record, identify what your handwriting is, on the letter 409B.

Mrs. Paine. It is above her words. Most of it is in English.

Mr. Jenner. That is in your hand?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that, are the documents in the condition they were when you received them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. There is one interesting thing to me, Mrs. Paine, to which I would like to draw the attention of the Commission. And I direct your attention in this respect to Exhibits 404, 404A, 408, 408A, 409, and 409A. Each has an envelope addressed to you, and each is addressed written in English.

Is the handwriting on each of those envelopes Marina Oswald's?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. She was then able to write some English, is that so?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please——

Mrs. Paine. She learned her own address.

Mr. Jenner. Did her command of the use of the English language, at least from the writing standpoint, extend beyond those examples?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my knowledge. I knew that she looked at signs and had learned the sound value of the English letters. That she looked at the Thursday supplement to the newspaper for the ads on vegetables and things with pictures on a can or something that showed the English of what it was, to try to determine what this word was and pronounce it.

Mr. Jenner. So she did acquire some command of English with respect to reading newspapers?

Mrs. Paine. It was not my impression that she could read a newspaper. She could pick out the sound values. It was not until October that I read with her a portion from Time magazine regarding Madam Nhu, whenever that was news, she asked me to read this to her and translate it. I read it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you read it in English first?

Mrs. Paine. I read it in English, giving translation of some of the words.

Mr. Jenner. As you went along?

Mrs. Paine. As I went along.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. But many of the words, English words, were words she understood, because they were either similar to the Russian or because she had learned them.

I was surprised at how much she understood when I pronounced it and read it to her.

Representative Ford. In English?

Mrs. Paine. In English. Because she was very hesitant to speak English with me, fearful that her pronunciation would not be correct. She would ask me several times, "How do I pronounce this," although she didn't think she was doing very well with the pronunciation, although she did well.

Mr. Jenner. She was sensitive in this respect, Mrs. Paine, she was hesitant to use the English language in the presence, say, of Americans or even the Russian emigré groups?

Mrs. Paine. I think most people are sensitive about using a language when the person they are with can understand them in the language they use better. She also talked with my immediate neighbor for a short time, when only she and the neighbor were present. I went to see about a child.

Mr. Jenner. Could your neighbor understand Russian?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. But there was a measure of communication?

Mrs. Paine. There was some communication, not a great deal. My neighbor told me after she saw Marina on television in January, whatever it was, "that girl has learned a great deal of English." She was amazed at the change.

Representative Ford. The improvement from October to January?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. How would you appraise her general intelligence, her level of intelligence for a girl of that age in the early twenties?

Mrs. Paine. I think she certainly had above average intelligence.

Representative Ford. What prompted her, if you know, to ask about Madam Nhu?

Mrs. Paine. She was interested in the family. She was worried about what Madam Nhu would do. Madam Nhu and the children still in her country. She wanted to know were these children going to come out either in Paris or the United States. She was concerned, and her concern for world affairs seemed to go this way, of what is this mother and children going to do.

Mr. Jenner. Was she concerned about the conflict between the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese?

Mrs. Paine. No; this didn't interest her, it didn't appear to.

Mr. Jenner. It was the human side rather than the political side?

Mrs. Paine. Strictly that.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you; that is what I wanted to bring out. I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Exhibits with those numbers, the documents marked Commission Exhibits 409, 409-A, and 409-B.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The documents referred to previously, marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 409, 409-A, and 409-B, were received in evidence.)

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, turning to this series of correspondence which has now been admitted in evidence, have you made an interpretation for the Commission of Exhibit 409-B?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Where does that appear on your summary you furnished to me last evening?

Mrs. Paine. That begins in the middle of page 6, marked second letter from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Your interpretation of the letter dealing with the night club visit of the Oswalds, you have interpreted that for the Commission, and that appears on page what of your summary?

Mrs. Paine. That appears on page 3 marked first letter from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Were you concerned about Mrs. Oswald, about Marina's condition and her receiving proper medical attention?

Mrs. Paine. I was very concerned about it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you write her at any time about it?

Mrs. Paine. I would like to refer you to my letter of June 1st which was returned in the document you just admitted in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. You did write her about it?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote particularly in that letter to Lee.

Mr. Jenner. You wrote both Lee and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. In this letter I addressed each, and a particular portion of that letter is in English.

Mr. Jenner. And that is Commission Exhibit No. 409?

Mrs. Paine. That was to Lee, that particular portion.

Mr. Jenner. You incorporated, did you not, in that letter, a direct communication to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I say in Russian a few words to Lee now about hospital and money.

Mr. Jenner. But incorporated in your note in that letter to Lee Oswald you used the English rather than the Russian language, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. I wanted to speak of things I couldn't say in Russian. I didn't have the vocabulary to do it with any ease in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. And further I particularly wanted to tell him I thought it important she get to a doctor and have prenatal care and felt he would be the one who actually got her there. It was his concern that would produce a visit to the doctor.

Mr. Jenner. I see. That explains that portion of the letter which is Commission Exhibit No. 409.

Mrs. Paine. 409.

Mr. Jenner. I won't go into the details, Mr. Chairman, because these are recommendations of Mrs. Paine for medical care of Marina Oswald.

Mr. McCloy. Do I understand you are going to read all of these into the record at the noon hour?

Mr. Jenner. At the noon hour I will read all of these into the record rather than do it now. Now you, last night, Mrs Paine, suggested to me you would like to make an explanation of this series of letters, and I direct your attention to page 7 of your notes.

Mrs. Paine. Well, the commentary on page 7 by me is——

Mr. Jenner. Refreshing your recollection from having read it, you would like to make a statement to the Commission and you may proceed to do so.

Mrs. Paine. It doesn't refresh me enough. I could say this. That when I received 409-B, her letter, I read it through. I glanced at 409, her corrected—my letter which she had corrected, and at the note at the back which began, "You write well" and assumed this to be commentary on my letter; it was not until I sat down nearly a month later to write a proper reply to her, I read this through more carefully and found in the middle of the paragraph discussing my writing a comment by her saying, "Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all."

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record there appears the red crayon to which I earlier drew your attention on the back of page 3.

Would you read that entire notation of hers so that the Commission may now know that to which you are now directing your attention?

Mrs. Paine. In the back of my letter she writes in red pencil, "You write well, when will I write that way in English. I think never. Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all. A pity."

Mr. Dulles. What was the last?

Mrs. Paine. "A pity."

Mr. Jenner. I take it when you first read that notation on the back of the third page of the letter you had not noticed the sentence, "Very likely I will have to go to Russia after all. A pity."

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you proceed with your comment?

Mrs. Paine. This was early July when I read this letter more carefully and I was shocked that I hadn't noticed this. That my poor Russian made a scanning of the letter not adequate to picking that up, and I wrote her immediately apologizing for my bad understanding, and I don't have that letter, but I have three which followed it, and——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Do you have a draft, have you produced for the Commission your immediate preceding draft of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I have no rough draft of my first letter explaining my shock and my worry at this statement of hers.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. But I have rough drafts of three letters I wrote subsequently.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever seen at any time a copy or the original of the letter that you wrote, a draft of which you do not have?

Mrs. Paine. No; I haven't.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission your present recollection of the substance and content of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Much what I have said. That I apologized that my poor Russian didn't see this immediately and I inquired after her what she was doing, and asked to hear from her.

Mr. Jenner. You say, that sentence when you finally did read it rather shocked you. Would you rather—would you elaborate on that statement to the Commission? Why did that shock you?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed more final than anything else that had preceded. She had told me in March that he had asked her to go back, that she had written to the embassy but she didn't reply to the embassy when the embassy inquired why. It looked as though she was able to just say no by not doing anything about it. But this, on the other hand, looked as if she was resigned to the necessity to go back.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware at this time, Mrs. Paine, that Lee had applied to the State Department for a passport and had obtained one?

Mrs. Paine. No; I was not aware of that.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first become aware of that, if you ever did?

Mrs. Paine. It was considerably after the assassination, and I read it in a paper. I still don't remember what time or day it was.

Mr. Jenner. Now, did you write Marina on or about the 11th of July?

Mrs. Paine. I have a rough draft of that date.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a document of two pages which has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 410.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification.)

Would you please tell us what that document is?

Mrs. Paine. This is the rough draft, to which I just referred, written to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. And you thereupon prepared the final draft and sent it?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. This represents, does it not, your best recollection of the contents of the letter, the letter in its final form as you transmitted it to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I think this is probably a very accurate representation of the letter in its final form. It was the first time I put on paper an invitation to her to come and stay with me for anything more than a few weeks around the birth of the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of your letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And that appears at the bottom of page 7 of your notes which you have supplied to me?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention, if I may, and the attention of the Commission as interpreted by Mrs. Paine, the first sentence reads, "Dear Marina, if Lee doesn't wish to live with you any more and prefers that you go to the Soviet Union, think about the possibility of living with me."

You just said—is that the portion of your letter which you say this is the first invitation you made to Marina to come to live with you generally?

Mrs. Paine. This was the first written invitation.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. I had made an informal invitation face to face when she was staying the first week in May, but felt as I made it that she didn't take this seriously.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you go on in your letter and you make reference, for example, to—let's take the second paragraph of your letter appearing at the top of page 8 of your notes, "You know I have long received from my parents, I live dependent a long time. I would be happy to be an aunt to you and I can. We have sufficient money. Michael will be glad. This I know. He just gave me $500 for the vacation or something necessary. With this money it is possible to pay the doctor and hospital in October when the baby is born, believe God. All will be well for you and the children. I confess that I think that the opportunity for me to know you came from God. Perhaps it is not so but I think and believe so."

Had you discussed this matter with your husband?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I had.

Mr. Jenner. And you were still living separate and apart at that time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But I felt so long as I was not yet earning, he would be the one, in fact, who was supporting all of us.

Mr. Jenner. I think the Commission might be interested in that. You were not taking this action, either in the earlier stage in the early spring or in the summer of inviting Marina to live with you without discussing that with your husband even though you and your husband at that time were separated?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you do anything, Mrs. Paine, in this connection with respect to keeping Lee Oswald informed of your invitations and your communications in this area with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote into the letter that I hoped—well you might just read the last paragraph.

Mr. Jenner. Would you mind reading it?

Mrs. Paine. I will read it, the last paragraph in the letter, and I might say that the entire letter I wrote with the possibility in mind that he should see this.

Mr. Jenner. Did you desire that he do see it?

Mrs. Paine. I wanted him to—her to feel free to show it to him. I didn't want her to come to my house if this offended or injured him, if this was in some way——

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Divisive?

Mrs. Paine. If he did in fact want to keep his family together, I certainly wanted him to, but if the bulk of his feelings lay on the side of wanting to be away, separated from Marina, then I thought it was legitimate for him to have that alternative, although it was not legitimate for him to simply send her back if she didn't want to go.

Mr. Jenner. Send her back where?

Mrs. Paine. To the Soviet Union, if she didn't want to go. So in this light I will read the last paragraph of Commission Exhibit 410:

"I don't want to hurt Lee with this invitation to you. Only I think that it would be better that you and he do not live together if you do not receive happiness. I understand how Michael feels. He doesn't love me and wants a chance to look for another life and another wife. He must do this, it seems, and so it is better for us not to live together. I don't know how Lee feels. I would like to know. Surely things are hard for him now, too. I hope that he would be glad to see you with me where he can know that you and the children will receive everything that is necessary and he would not need to worry about it. Thus he could start life again."

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, having all this in mind and what you have testified to up to now, would you please tell the gentlemen of the Commission the factors and motivations you had in inviting Marina to come live with you; first to have her baby, next on a more extended scale, all of the factors that motivated you in your offer, in your own words?

Mrs. Paine. The first invitation, just to come for a few weeks at the time of the birth is a simpler question, I will answer that first.

I felt that she would need someone simply to take care of her older child for the time that she was in the hospital, and that things would be easier for her if she didn't have to immediately take up the full household chores upon returning from the hospital. This was a very simple offer.

Mr. Jenner. That was all that motivated you at that time?

Mrs. Paine. Now, in asking her to come and stay for a more extended period, I had many feelings. I was living alone with my children, at that time, had been since the previous fall, nearly a year, at the time this letter is written. I had no idea that my husband might move back to the house. I was tired of living alone and lonely, and here was a woman who was alone and in a sense also, if Lee, in fact didn't want to be with her, and further she was a person I liked. I had lived with her 2 weeks in late April and early May. I enjoyed her company.

Further, being able to talk Russian with her added a wider dimension to my rather small and boring life as a young mother. I didn't want to go out and get a job because I wanted to be home with my children, but on the other hand, I saw a way to, and that is part of what studying Russian altogether is for me, a way to make my daily life more interesting. I also felt when I first heard in March that Lee was wanting to send Marina back, that is how it was presented to me, that it just seemed a shame that our country couldn't be a more hospitable thing for her if she wanted so much to stay, that I thought she should have that opportunity.

I was pleased that she liked America, and thought that she should have a chance to stay here and raise her children here as she wished.

I might say also if I had not been living alone I would not have undertaken such an invitation. My house is small and it wouldn't have gone with married life.

Mr. Jenner. I wanted to afford you that opportunity. Now, you have related all the factors that motivated you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 410 the document which has been so identified.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. McCloy. We have been going for an hour and a half. If you would like to have a recess you may have it.

Mrs. Paine. I am all right.

Mr. McCloy. All right, we will go on then.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned in the course of your explanation earlier a series of three letters. I hand you a draft of letter dated July 12, 1963, addressed to Dear Marina, consisting of two pages, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 411. And another one-page letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 412.

In whose handwriting is each of those exhibits?

Mrs. Paine. Each of these are in my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And they are drafts, are they?

Mrs. Paine. They are.

Mr. Jenner. And you would then, after making those drafts put them in final form?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you transmit the final draft of letter to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I mailed them to her address in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied me with your translation of both of those drafts?

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. Each draft is in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the interpretations appearing at the bottom of page 8 and the bottom of page 9 are the material you supplied me and they consist of your interpretations of those letters or translations, rather?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. They are dated respectively July 12 and July 14.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a picture copy rather than a photostatic copy of a two-page letter dated July 14, 1963, and a translation of that letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414, respectively.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibit 413, would you tell us what that is?

Mrs. Paine. This appears to be a photograph of the letter I then wrote from my final draft and sent to Marina, dated the 14th of July.

Mr. Jenner. So that Exhibit No. 413 is the——

Mrs. Paine. 413, the photograph.

Mr. Jenner. 413 is to the best of your recollection an actual picture of your final draft letter as transmitted to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now directing your attention to page 10 of the material that you supplied me, and which you discussed with me last evening, you wished to make a statement to the Commission with respect to this letter, do you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you please proceed to do so?

Mrs. Paine. I think it would be easier if I read what is here.

Mr. Jenner. Any way you want to handle it, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. Marina stayed with me 2 weeks in the spring as you know, and I realized then what a proud and capable person she is. She was not accustomed to accept help from others, and I knew that her pride and independence would be a stumbling block to her accepting help even though she needed it.

I respected her for this and somehow I wanted to ease such acceptance for her, and to explain that the situation I proposed would be a situation of mutual help. I hoped—now I should say that in Commission Exhibit——

Mr. Jenner. They are to your right on the table.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; 411 and 412, I mentioned that if she were counted as a dependent on Michael's income tax his yearly payment to the government would be reduced by a certain amount, and that by that amount she—we could very nearly live—her expenses could very nearly come under this, so it would be more a case of breaking even than a case of her accepting so much as she might think from us. But I think that in fact this reference to the tax reduction did not encourage her, as I had hoped.

Mr. Jenner. It wasn't quite correct either, was it, Mrs. Paine?

(Laughter.)

Mrs. Paine. Did I get a chance to read the second letter as written at 2 a.m. and I was hopeful only more than——

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I think the members of the Commission and also you from our talk last night, are interested in your letters which you have now identified suggesting financial arrangements to Mrs. Oswald, since to one who might read them without knowing the background they might seem crass.

Mrs. Paine. I felt crass in Russian, particularly.

Mr. Jenner. I was not thinking in terms of your difficulty in communicating with her, but you had no selfish or ulterior financial motive, did you, in this connection?

Mrs. Paine. Did it appear that?

Mr. Jenner. It might.

Mrs. Paine. Even with such bad arithmetic.

Mr. Jenner. Your arithmetic was all right. Your interpretation of the law was not as good as it might be.

Mr. Dulles. Am I not correct, I understood you were trying to make her feel she was not going to be a burden to you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. And were using certain subterfuges to accomplish that; that is the impression I got from what you said.

Mrs. Paine. That is absolutely correct. That I hoped, and further I would say in the letters to her I made reference that this money not paid to the government would be therefore available for spending money for her. I had put myself in her position and thought wouldn't it be terrible to have to ask for a nickel for a package of Lifesavers every time you wanted it, and thought I wouldn't want to be in such a situation if she doesn't have her own, something she can count upon as her own money, it would be unbearable to her.

So I tried to cast about both for a way of making her feel that this would not be a burden to us, and a way of getting her petty cash in the pocket that she would not feel was a handout. So that it would be a legitimate possibility for her to consider.

I judge that my effort in this regard, besides the bad understanding of the tax law and the poor arithmetic, didn't help because of her following letter.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I was coming to. Before we get to that, Mrs. Paine, I direct your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 414.

Mrs. Paine. 414?

Mr. Jenner. That is a translation of your letter, Commission Exhibit No. 413. Have you read that translation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything in the translation to which you might desire to take exception or at least make a comment?

(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mrs. Paine. One minute. Yes, it accurately reflects some of my bad Russian.

Mr. Jenner. You take no exception to the translation?

Mrs. Paine. I think no.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, if you please, I offer in evidence, Mr. Dulles, may I have those exhibits——

Mr. McCloy. They may be admitted.

Mr. Jenner. As Commission Exhibits 411, 412, 413 and 414, the documents that had been so marked?

Mr. McCloy. They will be admitted.

(The documents referred, previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 411, 412, 413, and 414, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. You did receive a response from Marina, did you not, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And is the response the document now handed to you marked Commission Exhibit No. 415?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter and that translation——

Mrs. Paine. 415 is that what you said?

Mr. Jenner. 415. It appears on pages 10, 11, and 12 of the material you supplied me.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have an envelope but you have a letter.

Mrs. Paine. I don't have an envelope. I don't know what happened to it.

Mr. Jenner. Is the exhibit in Marina Oswald's handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything on the exhibit other than that in the handwriting of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. There are a few underlinings on the page marked four.

Mr. Jenner. Who placed them there?

Mrs. Paine. Which are my own.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. Except for the underlining "he does not know" at the very bottom.

Mr. Jenner. "He" refers to whom?

Mrs. Paine. Lee.

Mr. Jenner. You were about to state to the Commission Marina Oswald's reaction to your series of invitations. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you proceed then?

Mrs. Paine. As reflected in this letter. This was the third letter I received from her after a space of over a month, and I had been very concerned about her. I was much relieved to get it. She said she had been to the doctor and her condition was normal. She responded to this series of four letters of which we have three in rough draft, saying—shall I read in some of the things said?

Mr. Jenner. To the extent that you desire to do so. We will not read the whole letter, it is quite long; that which is pertinent to what you have in mind.

Mrs. Paine. Well, that for a considerable period Lee has been good to her, she writes. He talks a lot about the coming baby.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps you might pick out—there are only about four sentences.

Mrs. Paine. "He has become more attentive and we hardly quarrel".

Mr. Jenner. This indicates a change somewhat in relationship and would you please read that portion of the letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Could we have the date of this letter once again?

Mrs. Paine. The date of the letter. We have no date on the letter. It was written somewhere between July 18 and July 21, which is the date of my reply.

Mr. Jenner. That is how you identify it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. This is 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Right. Again, "He has become much more attentive and we hardly quarrel. True I have to give in a great deal. It could not be otherwise. But if one wants peace then it is necessary to give in. We went to the doctor, my condition is normal."

And she thanks me for the invitation and thanks Michael also and says:

"I would try to take advantage of it if things really become worse, if Lee becomes coarse with me again and treats me badly."

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to the paragraph following that one, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. Now another question:

"If as is possible it becomes necessary for me to come to live with you in order to say that I am a dependent of Michael's surely it would be necessary to have an official divorce, isn't that so? But I think Lee would not agree to a divorce, and to go simply from him to become a burden to you that I don't wish. Surely Michael would need to have a paper showing that I am living at his expense but no one would just take his word for it, right?"

And I realized much later that in the Soviet Union you don't do anything without the proper papers, and just having a person under your roof for anyone to see, having them in fact eating at your table is not, would not be, sufficient proof—would not be sufficient there in Russia.

Representative Boggs. It might not be here.

Mrs. Paine. It might not be here. Well, in any case I judged she felt, reading my invitations this was of some importance to me whether Michael counted her as a deduction, and so on, whereas in fact this wasn't the point at all, but that I had hoped to somehow make, if possible, for her to accept such help.

Mr. Jenner. Have you finished your observations?

Representative Boggs. As a matter of fact, there are certain limitations under our law as to how you can claim a dependent.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I asked a few people who didn't know much about it before I wrote it.

Representative Boggs. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The tenor then of this letter was as I gather from your testimony and as you have related to me last evening whether she would come to live with you in the fall or generally was something which now became subject to reconsideration?

Mrs. Paine. Pardon?

Mr. Jenner. The matter of her coming to live with you, the possibility of her living with you on a more extended basis than——

Mrs. Paine. Was an invitation I had made to her.

Mr. Jenner. And that her response was not acceptance but one that she would now defer?

Mrs. Paine. It was a "thank you" and a refusal basically.

Mr. Jenner. Did you respond to that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did. My letter is dated July 12.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Liebeler will mark that Commission Exhibit 416, which consists of how many pages, Mr. Liebeler, three pages. You have that exhibit. Is that exhibit all in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the draft of letter to which you have reference being your response to Marina's letter of——

Mrs. Paine. Undated letter.

Mr. Jenner. Undated letter which would be somewhere just prior to July 21?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And is that a draft of letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. We will mark as Commission Exhibits 417 and 418 two exhibits, the first being a one-page exhibit entitled "Translation from Russian", and the second being a four page photograph of what appears to be a letter dated July 21, 1963. Directing your attention to Exhibit 418.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you find it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please identify that exhibit? It consists of four pages.

Mrs. Paine. It appears to be a photograph of my letter to her of July 21.

Mr. Jenner. Having observed it and looked at it last night, is it your best recollection at the moment that it is a photograph of the letter that you actually transmitted to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to the next exhibit which is No. 418——

Mrs. Paine. 417, you are talking about the translation.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a translation of the letter, of your letter to her?

Mrs. Paine. That is far from complete.

Representative Ford. It is far from complete?

Mrs. Paine. Far from complete. It is incomplete.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you make then, directing your attention to the translation that has been supplied us.

Mrs. Paine. It goes as far as two-thirds down on page 2, you must have more somewhere.

Mr. Jenner. No; that is all we have. Would you mark with this red marker pen the point to which Exhibit 417 is a translation?

Mrs. Paine. Here.

Mr. Jenner. Is the translation accurate up to that point or rather do you have any exceptions to it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In relation to what?

Mrs. Paine. "This would" on the next to the last paragraph "this would offend my father very much." "This hurt my father", no subjunctive to it.

Mr. Jenner. Do it this way. Read what is on it, what the interpreter——

Mrs. Paine. Wait.

Mr. Jenner. Said.

Mrs. Paine. I guess that is just the interpreter trying to "offer you an alternative". State the question again. You want to know if I take any exception to the translation I have before me, this portion of my July 21 letter? They are all small.

Mr. Jenner. They are small and none of consequence.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. So far as you are concerned. Your translation, however, that you supplied the Commission is as far as you are concerned accurate and what you intend to say, at least?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I think it is what I said.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence, if the Chairman please, the documents that have been marked—may I have them please, Representative Ford?

Mrs. Paine. These, too?

Mr. Jenner. Documents marked 415, 416, 417, and 418.

Mr. McCloy. Do I understand there is not a complete translation?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Of the letter. It is an incomplete translation?

Mrs. Paine. There is a page 2 somewhere.

Mr. Jenner. That is correct. During the noon hour I will see if that is not a mistake and if I can be supplied with the balance, if there is a balance.

Mr. McCloy. They may be admitted in this form and then you can advise us after the recess whether there is anything additional to insert at this point.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 415, 416, 417, and 418, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, there is a matter to which I would like to draw your attention in your letter of July 21, which is Commission Exhibit No. 416, the last portion of it, and I direct your attention, in turn, to your own interpretation appearing at page 3. The last paragraph, when you brought Marina to New Orleans, did you do anything by way of seeking to have people in New Orleans visit her?

Mrs. Paine. No. I have already testified that after an initial warm greeting with Lee, they quarreled, and I was uncomfortable there, and wanted to get back home. I had thought of making contact for Marina with someone in the Russian speaking community in New Orleans, and later when I didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "I will have to go back to Russia after all," I much regretted that I had not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. And anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this appendage to my corrected letter, I telephoned Ruth Kloepfer who is the clerk of the Quaker Meeting in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Would you spell her name, please?

Mrs. Paine. She is not someone I know. That is spelled K-L-O-E-P-F-E-R, and I asked her if she knew any Russians in New Orleans. She did not. I then wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I asked Mrs. Kloepfer if she knew any Russian-speaking people and described why I was interested in knowing. I must have given her the address of Marina, probably asked that she go and see her. In any case, I have a letter which followed that telephone call, which I wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.

Mr. McCloy. Pardon me, did you say you telephoned to Mrs. Blanchard or you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote to Mrs. Blanchard, I had originally telephoned to Mrs. Kloepfer.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make the telephone call when you were in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. No; this was when I was concerned. I had not heard from Marina for a month. I did not know whether she was in good health or had gone back to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. So you called Mrs. Kloepfer in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. After having tried to call the Murrets. I had not had their name accurately.

Representative Boggs. How did you happen to write to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. She is the secretary of the Unitarian Church in New Orleans and I called the Quaker Church in Dallas to find out who was in New Orleans of the Quakers, and then I called the Unitarian Church which my husband belongs to in Dallas to find out who the secretary of the New Orleans Unitarian Church was.

Representative Boggs. You do not know Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. I did not know her, and I did not know Mrs. Kloepfer either, and appended to this that I am leaving with the Commission is my carbon of a letter to Mrs. Blanchard of the Unitarian Church, which I sent in carbon to Mrs. Kloepfer so each would know what the other was doing in an effort to find a Russian-speaking person who could be a contact for Marina.

(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard; have you supplied the Commission with a carbon copy of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. And it is a two-page document, Mr. Chairman, dated July 18, 1963, now marked as Commission Exhibit 419. That exhibit has now been handed to you, Mrs. Paine. Is that the carbon copy of your letter to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. You did not know Mrs. Blanchard, had never heard of her prior to the time you wrote the letter?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. It begins saying, "Mrs. Philip Harper, the secretary of the Dallas Unitarian Church, suggested I write to you when I told her of the following problem."

Mr. Jenner. Is the document in the same condition now as it was when you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 419 the document which has been so identified.

Mr. McCloy. It may be so admitted.

(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 419 and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Paine. Will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and then it goes carbon?

Mr. Jenner. Explain that.

Mrs. Paine. I wrote two carbon paragraphs and then I thought I should write a carbon of this to Mrs. Blanchard and put in a carbon and then in my own copy put in typing.

Mr. Jenner. So that which appears to be a copy is an original and that which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of the letter you actually sent to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. With copy stated here to Mrs. Kloepfer.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear from Marina on that subject at any time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. In her succeeding and last letter that I got from her.

Mr. Jenner. Her succeeding letter is dated what?

Mrs. Paine. It has no date inside. It is postmarked August 11 from New Orleans and sent to me while I was on vacation.

Mr. Jenner. We have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 420 the envelope and attached to 420 is what purports to be a four-page letter in Russian longhand—may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the envelope and the four-page letter?

Mr. McCloy. If it is properly attached I guess you can.

Mrs. Paine. There is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't know what it is.

Mr. Jenner. We have marked the four-page letter as Commission Exhibit 421 in order to avoid any difficulty.

Directing your attention to Exhibit 421, do you recognize the handwriting on that exhibit?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. That is a letter to you, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. That appears at pages 13 and 14 of the materials you furnished me?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on the bottom of unmarked page 3.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read that?

Mrs. Paine. Which is a translation of one word.

Mr. Jenner. What word is that?

Mrs. Paine. A word means to grow downcast.

Mr. Dulles. I didn't catch that.

Mrs. Paine. To grow downcast, to lose courage.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to the envelope which is marked Commission Exhibit 420.

Mrs. Paine. I want to make one other comment. I underlined the word on the second page that I have translated as "winsome."

Mr. Jenner. W-i-n-s-o-m-e?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The other underlinings in her letter are her own.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Directing your attention to the pink envelope which is Commission Exhibit No. 420, was Exhibit 421 enclosed in Exhibit 420?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. That also is in English, that is the address?

Mrs. Paine. The address is in English, addressed to me while on vacation.

Mr. Jenner. And you received those documents in due course?

Mrs. Paine. Which documents?

Mr. Jenner. You received the documents in due course?

Mrs. Paine. It was not forwarded. It was addressed to me where I was.

Mr. Jenner. But you received them is all I am asking?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 420 and 421, the documents which have been so marked.

Mr. McCloy. They may be so admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 420 and 421 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. There is one item in Exhibit 421 to which I wish to direct your attention. On the last page about the third paragraph from the bottom appears the second sentence, "Lee doesn't have work now already three weeks." Do you find that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any information prior to the receipt of this letter that Lee Oswald no longer was employed in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. I had no such information.

Mr. Jenner. This was your first information?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you respond to that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. I have a five-page document Mr. Liebeler is identifying as Commission Exhibit No. 422.

Mrs. Paine. This is not what you want. You want my reply, don't you next?

Mr. Jenner. That is right.

Mrs. Paine. This is not it. You have my reply but I had had no copy of that.

Mr. Jenner. We will keep that exhibit number. There has been identified as Commission Exhibit 423 an exhibit consisting of four pages, the first three of which are a photograph of a letter, and the last page of which is a photograph of an envelope. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 423, is that a picture of your letter to Marina Oswald in response to her letter of August 11?

Mrs. Paine. August 11. Yes; it is dated August 24, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And you do recognize that as being a picture copy of letter you had written?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not. I did not have this in rough draft. I had no copy of this. You may have a translation but I do not.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. I supplied you only on this summary that you have with a brief recollection of what it contained.

Mr. Jenner. I now hand you a document, Commission Exhibit No. 424 consisting of two pages which purports to be a translation of Exhibit 423. Did you review that translation with me last evening?

Mrs. Paine. Briefly.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection at the moment of what you said last night that the translation is of Exhibit 423?

Mrs. Paine. It is approximately what I recall writing. I didn't look at the Russian in your pictures.

Mr. Jenner. During the noon recess would you wish to look at that and if you have any exception you wish to take to the translation would you please state it to the Commission?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. May I intervene at this point about Exhibit 422, has that been properly identified?